Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

Swing State Polls Show Harris And Trump Deadlocked; Trump Ad Targets Black Women Voters; Trump Posts Offensive Memes On Truth Social; Vance Downplays Backlash Received By Trump Campaign; Trump Team Posts Video Showing Master Sergeant Andrew Marcosano's Grave. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired August 28, 2024 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, battleground bus stops. Kamala Harris and Tim Walz pull into Georgia to get swing state voters on board.

Plus, a Green Beret family says Donald Trump turned their son's gravesite into a political prop.

And one of the GOP's biggest donors is big mad about Trump's newest buddies and is asking a bigger question. Is the Republican nominee trying to lose?

Live at the table, Joe Pinion, Ashley Etienne, Ramesh Ponnuru, and Alyssa Farrah Griffin. Welcome to a special edition of NewsNight, State of the Race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening everyone, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Let's get right to what America is talking about, toss up. More and more polls reflecting the shift in the state of the race. The contest between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump now is virtually deadlocked in the places on the map that matter the most in this 2024 election.

We're here with our panel in New York. This race, according to the latest Fox News poll that looks at some of these Sun Belt states is within the margin of error, which, for Kamala Harris, it's a huge turnaround. Should this be a red flag for the Trump team?

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Well, I think it adds to a collection of red flags that the Trump team has to look at. What Trump had going for him, above all, was Joe Biden's age and the perception of Americans that he wasn't up to the job for another four years. Once that was removed as a factor, the Democrats jumped up in the polls. It's not so much Trump losing support, it's the Democrats gaining support among people who don't want Trump.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, that is the very dynamic that I think they didn't think was going to happen. And also it's notable, I mean, we're talking about Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, North Carolina, none of these are places that have to be won in order to win this election. So, these are actually places where Harris is now putting Trump on defense.

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, V.P. HARRIS 2021: Absolutely. I mean, she's, her presence has expanded the map. I mean, she can play in so many different places. And I think the other thing we've not been paying much attention to is she's got $540 million on hand to actually play heavily in those states.

But here's the thing, you know, I think at this stage of the game, what matters most is money on hand and is infrastructure and messaging. Each one of those Trump is failing on to your point earlier. This is only one additional sign that there's a crisis happening within his campaign and is raising questions about whether or not he can make up the difference in any of these states with any of the constituency.

So, I think that's the real challenge with him now is she's raised three times as much money as he is. He has very little infrastructure in the States. I think he just went up in Georgia last month. And then in terms of messaging, the border crossings are down, the economy -- you know, inflation is down, you know, unemployment is down, so all of the attacks on her are now working to her advantage.

So, those three areas, I think are, again, double downing on the fact that the Republicans are having a problem.

PHILLIP: One of the things that I've asked, I think, myself and other people on this show early on was, is this really going to be about all the slate of issues? Or was the real problem with the Democratic ticket, Joe Biden? And it does seem like right now, voters are kind of saying, yes. Yes, the problem was Biden. And with Harris, it's a different race.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's the Nikki Haley observation that whichever ticket replaced it, it's near 80-year-old first would likely be the one to win. Having a next generation of leadership, turning the page on what was seen as a chaotic and crisis period, whether you like Trump or not, whether you liked Biden or not, they're both kind of thought of as relics of the pandemic era of COVID of one of the saddest periods in our nation's history.

PHILLIP: Yes, like something that people had to do at that moment, but they didn't really want to do it.

GRIFFIN: This is something fundamentally different and she creates optionality for Democrats, to Ashley's point, putting these Sun Belt states in play that make it, that you know, she could perform a number of places. I mean, two months ago, Donald Trump was talking about potentially winning Virginia. He wasn't having to be on the airwaves in North Carolina and Georgia, because he had such a demanding lead. ETIENNE: And now he's defending Florida.

GRIFFIN: Exactly. And now the money starts to matter. When more states are in play, the person with more money to put ads on the airwaves there is the one that can win.

JOE PINION, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think much of this is true.

[22:05:00]

I think we do start with the reality that because of the fact that there was this baked in perception that Joe Biden was not up for the job. We actually had a real conversation about what was required to do the job and what were the responsibilities of the person sitting in that chair.

And so now you have the results coming out saying that President Trump's lead on the economy and crime is slipping with Kamala Harris. But I think that is a direct result of the fact that we are no longer having that conversation.

And so we're going to have a great interview where Kamala Harris gets to sit down with her choice to be the vice president of the United States of America, and we're not actually having the more prudent conversation that at a time, when, for better and for worse, that a decision was made that Joe Biden had to get out of the way and she had to be put in that chair, that we still have not had the opportunity to hear from her directly about her plans, about what her allies are doing in places like California, people that might potentially end up in a Harris cabinet. So, that substantive, robust conversation that is now truncated because of this shortened campaign that she's going to be running is not actually happening. I believe that is, in many ways, an overlooked aspect of why the numbers are truly changing.

ETIENNE: I mean, the reality is she spoke at the convention. She's laid out it an opportunity, you know, economy agenda. I think to your point earlier, though, the focus is now on who's sitting in that chair and it's hyper -- the lens is hyper focused on Donald Trump and that's why he's slipping in the polls. And that's why he has no room to grow because people are over the Trump show. They're exhausted by it. There was a fatigue around both of these candidates, but now the lens is hyper focused on --

PONNURU: I think that's what she captures with the message of change, which interestingly enough, even though she is the sitting vice president, she's one point ahead of Trump in the Fox News poll on who's the candidate for change. And I think what change means isn't a particular policy agenda. What it means is let's turn the page on this era of politics that has been defined by Donald Trump.

PHILLIP: And, by the way, I mean, what you just mentioned that the one-point advantage, that's really kind of a margin of error situation, but is that good for her? Because, I mean, she is -- you could argue, she's in the incumbency here in this race.

PONNURU: It's startlingly good for the incumbent. PHILLIP: For even it to be an even race on change, I mean, that seems --

GRIFFIN: Well, she needs as much separation from Biden as possible. And I actually think there's an elegant way to do it. Look, I worked for the former vice president. I don't think anyone believes Mike Pence was responsible for everything Donald Trump did in office. I think she has this unique flexibility, if she can communicate it, to own the good and walk away from the bad. There are some real baked in unfavorability with the Biden era, the inflation, the economy. And if she can try to seem like she's signaling a different direction.

But to Joe's point, there are some really bad policy proposals in my opinion on both sides, whether it's Trump and 18 percent import tariffs or giving $25,000 to first time home buyers, in theory, a good idea will likely drive up demand and therefore the cost of homes. I'd love to have a robust debate around those things.

But in the Trump era, we don't even get to talk about policy. It becomes name calling. It becomes the memes that he's put out. It becomes sort of this race to the bottom. Glad we have a debate, but we don't even live in a society these days where we're like functionally talking about policy.

PHILLIP: I mean, look, Trump could make this about policy at any time.

ETIENNE: We've all been waiting for it.

PHILLIP: And we'll talk a lot more about that coming up. But, I mean, I think it's, your point is well taken. The other part of this is the coalition, right? What does the Harris coalition look like? Trump is doing pretty well, about 20 percent with black voters, better than he did in 2020. So, we'll see if that sticks.

I did want to play this new Trump ad that they put out today targeting black women who are not for Kamala Harris. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This November, I am not voting for Kamala Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not voting for Kamala Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not voting for Kamala Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not with Kamala Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not with her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I support President Trump and the economic policies our country experienced under his leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, my first thought actually watching this was like, they probably could have done a little bit better than Skype videos for these things.

ETIENNE: Low production value.

PHILLIP: Pretty low production value for a constituency that they say that they're trying to appeal to but, I mean, will that kind of thing work?

PINION: Well, look, I think that it was clearly a strategic choice to make it feel a little bit less produced. I think that was actually on purpose. I don't know why it falls to me to say this. That ad doesn't have anything to do with black women. That ad has everything to do with the fact that the Republican Party is trying to ensure that the black men that are potentially inclined to vote for Donald J. Trump don't spend the next 70 days sleeping on the couch, sexless in Seattle.

And so that I think is the real conversation here. It's about the suburban man who doesn't want to spend the next 70 days on the couch because his wife doesn't want to be ostracized from the lake club or wherever they're going to be hanging out. So, that's what the ad is about.

Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, a turtle is going to probably get north of 95 percent of the vote for black women because the position of most black women across this country is they want Donald Trump nowhere near the Oval Office.

[22:10:10]

But, again, that has very little to do with the issues that are vastly impacting black communities, which is why you see that trend, particularly from black men, away from the Democratic Party when it comes to the economic basis, when it comes to black children being trapped in failing schools, when it comes to the fact that this three- strand court of despair, lack of educational opportunities, the crime in our communities, and the poverty has prevented us from making a sense of the problem.

GRIFFIN: See, that's such an eloquent argument that I wish if a more competent Republican --

PHILLIP: Every time Joe talks about this, I'm always like, Joe, are you talking to the truth?

GRIFFIN: By all means, you have my vote, because Donald Trump instead leans into black men resonate with me because I'm a felon. It's insulting. Pandering is not the word. It's just deeply insulting to the community. And I do think with Kamala Harris in the race, yes, she is still going to have ground to make up with black men, but she's doing better than Joe Biden was, which is part of bringing back the core Democratic base, which I think is why we're seeing these polls tightening.

However, I just always mentioned in the era of depolarization, I don't think we are ever going to see her with a commanding lead well outside of the margin of error or him. This is going to be a squeaker of a race.

PHILLIP: All right. Well, okay, last thing for you guys on this, because the opposite of a squeaker, down ballot is also what the Fox News poll shows. Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, these are key races there, the Democrats with double digit leads in this race. I mean, that's going to have an impact. Very unpopular Republican candidates down ballot will bring out voters.

PONNURU: I think there are some particular races, the Kari Lake race in Arizona being one of them, against Ruben Gallego for the Senate, where you've got a particularly toxic Republican nominee.

PHILLIP: And Mark Robinson in North Carolina, which is a huge problem for Republicans.

PONNURU: I think in other places those polls are implying a level of ticket splitting that is unlikely to happen in this era. But when you've got those particularly, like sort of the Trumpier than Trump candidates, they could, in fact, do significantly worse than Trump.

PINION: I mean, I think that that point --

PHILLIP: And, for me, that this lesson hasn't been learned from 2020, 2022?

PINION: Yes. I mean, look, I think the reality is that I think some things Republicans started to take for granted, that we were always going to win Pennsylvania and always going to win Michigan after we tried for decades to win those states and couldn't get it done. And so there is a pathway to victory for President Trump that does not include Pennsylvania, does not include Michigan, and does not include Wisconsin. But he cannot be slacking in Arizona. He certainly has to find a way to pick the lock on Nevada, if we're going to have that blue wall stay intact.

So, again, I think in the end, the campaign must get back to center on the issues in spite of the fact that people don't want to talk about them, continuing to bang on that door, inevitably, the dam has to break.

GRIFFIN: Well, and in the Trump era, we've also chased some of the best talent in the Republican Party out of office, Doug Ducey in Arizona, you think of some of the former makeup in North Carolina and replace them with people who just do not have appeal statewide.

ETIENNE: I mean, here's a --

PHILLIP: Yes.

ETIENNE: No. I was going to say, here's the real issue. I think The Wall Street Journal put it perfectly. The problem with the Republican Party is their candidate. It's Donald Trump. That is the problem. Donald Trump has no growth path. He's capped out, maxed out, capped out in terms of the polls. There is no growth strategy for him.

And the problem is that many of these down ballot candidates, he's handpicked. He's encouraged them, right? He's bolstered their races.

PHILLIP: So, he becomes responsible for him and for them, and what happens down ballot as well?

ETIENNE: Absolutely. And you can't get to policy because that's not who Donald Trump is.

PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, stick around for us.

Coming up next, Donald Trump is having a very public social media meltdown again. And this time, it's apparently motivated by the revised federal election interference indictment against him. A special guest will also join us in our fifth seat to discuss that. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:15:00]

PHILLIP: A completely unsurprising but dark turn tonight in Donald Trump's mood. You don't have to look too hard for the evidence to see how Trump is feeling. This is what you would see if you paged over to Truth Social, if you do that kind of thing, complaints about an indictment, not so veiled threats, QAnon conspiracies, jumpsuits photoshopped onto Democratic figures and a few more vulgar things that we won't show you here.

Joining my panel is Chief Content Officer at The Daily Beast Joanna Coles. Joanna, obviously this surprises no one that Trump is telling everyone how he's feeling, he's waking up in the morning, enraged, tweeting. But some of this stuff is really, I mean, beyond the pale. I mean, the QAnon conspiracies, there's literally a lewd joke, I'm not going to talk about it, but a lewd joke about Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris that he reposted.

JOANNA COLES, CHIEF CONTENT OFFICER, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, Trump is doing what Trump does brilliantly, right, which is he's just getting attention. That's what he loves. He missed it so much last week. He was withdrawing like an addict from it last week, because, of course, we have the DNC. Tomorrow, we know she has the big interview here at CNN with Dana Bash. So, he must just be in a bore with frustration that he hasn't got the attention that he wants. So this is how he gets it, right?

PHILLIP: It's a good point. I mean, there is a part of this, I wonder, that -- is it about the fact that there is so much attention on Kamala Harris for the last, you know, eight years, ten years?

PONNURU: He hasn't been the main character in America.

PHILLIP: Yes.

COLES: Exactly right. And people are bored of him. I think that she is new, right? What she and Tim present is new energy and we're all interested and he can't bear it.

[22:20:04]

And people are so bored of his antics.

ETIENNE: But I can just tell you, I mean, all Democrats are just sitting back with their tea, watching this whole meltdown publicly. 'cause the strategy from the Harris campaign's standpoint is to let Trump be Trump. Let Trump put on full display who he is, remind the public who he is. This pettiness, this nastiness, this ugliness is really his brand. That's who he is. And so they want to give him all the space possible to remind people that's who he is and really get back to this question, is this the guy who you want behind the resolute desk?

PONNURU: Leave aside how deranged and nasty these posts are. They also have two other things in common. One is they have no relevance to anybody's life. They're not going to help anybody with their grocery bills. They're not going to reduce crime. And the second thing is that they are not going to take a single person who is undecided and make them a supporter of Trump. They're not going to make a single soft supporter of Trump, somebody who's going to actually show up and turn out to vote for him.

PHILLIP: So, the tee-ball of it all, you know, the Harris campaign, they've been teed up very well for this. They wrote in a statement, Donald Trump is out of his mind. If a family member posted what Donald Trump is sharing today, Americans would rightly be concerned. But this is what Donald Trump and his Project 2025 are agenda offer America, prosecuting political opponents, using dangerous conspiracy theories to justify harmful policies, and dividing Americans against each other.

GRIFFIN: But let's think about that for a minute. I mean, the Harris campaign's been so much better at the rapid response on this, but I do have family members who are diehard Trump supporters, and if they posted some of the lewd comments he did, I would call them up and be like, this is so offensive and so inappropriate, please take it down.

PHILLIP: Yes, like, please don't embarrass me, take this down.

GRIFFIN: I think that actually resonates. But I also have to say, as somebody who, I guess, falls into the never Trump Republican camp, when people ask me, you know, yes, I care about border security, yes, I care about the economy, yes, I like some of Donald Trump's policies, but is this a man that you think is fit for the Oval Office? I don't know how people can still, after everything they've seen and heard, come to the conclusion the answer is yes.

COLES: And I think that what's really fascinating is that Ivanka is missing in action, right? His daughter is missing in action. His wife is missing in action. When she turned up at the RNC, he looked surprised to see her, right? So, you've got no women around him, really. And Corey Lewandowski, who is very much the guy that's like, let Trump be Trump, is back. And so you have this incredibly male way of reacting and the women have vanished around him.

ETIENNE: And to your point, Abby, I've been arguing that Democrats really need to lean into this issue and really ask the question, is Donald Trump well? Is he okay? You recall when he was in the White House, his cabinet secretaries and officials were trying to invoke the 25th Amendment because they thought he wasn't well and he was dangerous with his finger on the trigger So, my point is like we need to, as a party, continue to ask these questions, is he okay, because it doesn't seem like it is. He's completely deranged and unhinged.

PINION: I mean, look I don't think the Democrats want to have a conversation about the 25th Amendment because then we would have to have a conversation about what did the vice president know and when did she know it about the obvious decline of the current president, the current occupancy.

ETIENNE: It has passed. We're going through it before.

PINION: And, Ashley, respectfully, it has not passed. And I've said this many times that if Joe Biden had stood before the country and said, I am no longer up for the job. Effective next Friday, I am stepping down from the presidency and Kamala Harris will be the president, then I wouldn't be making this comment right now. But as it stands here right now, we have chaos in Gaza, we have chaos in the South China Sea, we have chaos on our own southern border. And the person who constitutionally is in charge of making those decisions is nowhere to be found.

So, yes, it does matter if you want to talk about the stability of the world. I understand your perspective. You worked in the administration. I have no gripe with you personally, but if we're actually having a conversation about the broader implications of what this election will mean and what the policies that are being proposed by this administration would do to this country, people, when we're looking at mortgage rates that were -- mortgage defaults were at 1.4 percent now fast forward to 2024, they're up to a close to 3.2 percent, 3.3 percent, that is a disaster for Americans, as we watch billions being given to people who were not here illegally.

ETIENNE: Can I just make one point?

PINION: Yes, please.

ETIENNE: I think the people who have the most credibility on whether or not Donald Trump should be sitting behind their desk are people who work for him. And not just Alyssa, but there are countless members of his administration that are saying not only is he unfit, but he's a nine-year-old with his finger on the trigger who's irresponsible. I mean --

GRIFFIN: I hear you and see you on policy. I'm not particularly aligned with Kamala Harris on most policy. I get it. But these are the circumstances we're in. And having been there, I just don't know how we could say that we think this is a person who's fit to make the right decision. So, we should just go with it because we might be right.

PINION: I just believe that we're watching the first war of expansion in Europe since World War II as a result of the policies that were passed by this administration.

GRIFFIN: But Donald Trump once said he would let Russia --

PHILLIP: Just real quick.

PINION: And Kamala Harris has not proposed any of the (INAUDIBLE).

[22:25:00]

PHILLIP: Joe, do you worry --

COLES: Isn't that the point of the interview?

PINION: If she were coming here by herself, I would have some faith in her.

PHILLIP: Joe, do you worry when you see what Trump has been up to on social media, when he's left to his own devices, does that worry you about his state of mind?

PINION: I'm not concerned about Donald J. Trump's state of mind. I'm concerned about the state of the world as we know it today. To me, World War III is worse than Donald J. Trump. And I think that most people who are supporting President Trump, most individuals who are looking at the geopolitical landscape, recognize that the policies that were passed, that were a direct rebuke of what happened over the four years of Donald J. Trump have left this entire country in a much more precarious situation than we were in spite of what you might feel about the man --

GRIFFIN: Having been with him in moments of crisis, though I have to tell you he is not someone who rises to the occasion. Thank God he had good advisers. Around him in a second term, he's not committing to having those kind of advisers around him a second.

COLES: Well, and I'm not sure they would want to work for him either, right, because you sort of think the first time around, people were like, you know what, I'm going to do the right thing by my country. The second time around, everybody's like, I don't want to end up in jail, which is what happened --

(CROSSTALKS)

PHILLIP: And going into the first administration, you know, they were scraping and trying to find people who would come in. That's not going to be the same case.

COLES: Well, half of them ended in jail.

PONNURU: Well, look, I think there's a lot to be said against Donald Trump and his fitness for others. I would just say to Democrats, I do think that everybody who thinks he's unfit already thinks that. You're not going to persuade people. You've got some room on the upside with Harris.

PHILLIP: That's an important point. Everyone stick with me. Coming up next, the Trump campaign is downplaying the backlash about adding RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard to their team. We're going to speak with a conservative fundraiser who says this was a huge mistake.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:31:11]

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R) VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The president just got RFK's endorsement, he just got Tulsi Gabbard's endorsement. And on the other side, he's got Nikki Haley's endorsement. He's got Brian Kemp's endorsement.

And it's important that Donald Trump, despite the fact that he has disagreements with a number of people who have endorsed him, he's willing to say, we are the big tent party. We stand for common sense and sanity, and we've got to kick that insane politician named Kamala Harris out of the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: J.D. Vance there downplaying any backlash the Trump campaign may have received from its decision to add R.F.K. Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard to their team, like from GOP fundraiser Eric Levine, who sent a scathing email to Republican donors. He asks simply, is Trump trying to lose?

In it, he calls R.F.K. Jr. "an anti-vax kook who sees conspiracies behind every tree and under every bed and takes issue with Gabbard's past as vice chair of the DNC and her support for Bernie Sanders' 2016 campaign.

He goes on to write, quote, 'Rather than seeking and coveting the endorsement of fringe candidates with fringe policy positions that offend most Republicans and independents, Trump would be better served by announcing that he's added Nikki Haley to his transition team. It's her voters that he should be focusing on.

Joining me now as Republican fundraiser himself Eric Levine. We have to know here Eric that you have not donated or fundraised for Trump in this election cycle, but you did after the primary say that you would support him. You earlier supported Nikki Haley, but I wonder, at this moment, given everything that you've seen, do you think that Trump is on track to lose this campaign?

ERIC LEVINE, ATTORNEY AND GOP FUNDRAISER AND DONOR: I think he can absolutely win it. I'm hoping he can change direction. I mean, my view is that you have a target-rich environment in the center. And that's where Nikki Haley is. That's where independents are. That's where women are.

And the irony here is that Kamala Harris is the fringe candidate. Her policies -- she's from the radical left, progressive left, and her policies are fringe policies. And that's why she's telling the world, ignore everything I ever said or did before I kicked Joe Biden to the curb. Because everything I said or did before I kicked him to the curb, you won't like.

So, now I'm going to run as a moderate, and I'm going to try and portray Donald Trump as he is the fringe candidate. And he only feeds into that. When he trumpets that he's gotten the endorsement of fringe folks at Gar-F-K and Tulsi Gabbard. He would be Bush-meta-served, as I said, by trying to go after the center, Haley voters, women, and independents. It's a target-rich environment.

His policies are the mainstream policies. The country agrees with him on the border. The country agrees with him on taxes and the economy. The country agrees with him on foreign policy and they completely disagree with Harris. And that's why she's running away from her record. I mean, I just broke down a couple of things.

PHILLIP: Well, let me ask you real quick, though, because Nikki Haley, I mean, you talk a lot about her, you supported her. She endorsed Trump, but she really hasn't been out there, you know, making the case for him.

And Trump, notably, did absolutely nothing to try to get her voters on board. Do you think she would even want to get on board and join the Trump transition team? I mean, does she actually want to do that?

LEVINE: Well, I can't speak for her. I would hope that she would. She has been very, very full-throated in her support of Trump. It's a binary choice and she's been very clear that Trump would be the far better candidate than Kamala Harris. I mean, just for example, before she kicked Biden to the curb, she was against fracking. Now, all of a sudden, she's for fracking. She was for an open border.

[22:35:00]

She was against the wall. Now, she claims to want to secure the border. It's nonsense. She claims that inflation is, there's really no inflation, it's price gouging. That's why there are high prices. That's nonsense.

So, what does she want to do? She wants to impose Soviet style price controls. And then when the liberal press, like "The Washington Post" says, that's a really crappy idea, then she says, oops, forget I ever said that. It's her effort to re-blame.

PHILLIP: So, I mean, I wonder if Trump doesn't ever do any of those things that you're saying. What happens then? If he doesn't do what you're suggesting, change course, start going after the policies, how's this going to go?

LEVINE: I think it will certainly be more difficult for him. You win by getting more voters. I would rather have three tepid voters than one really enthusiastic voter. So, even if the Haley voter and the woman or the independent is tepid but they vote for him, that's three votes.

You're not going to get a lot of votes by trying to peel away some disaffected Bernie Sanders supporter or some person that thinks that any sort of vaccine gives children autism. That's not helpful. You got to go where the votes are, and the votes are in the middle.

I mean, look. The Biden administration is a complete failure, and Harris has been supportive of it. Foreign policy is a perfect example. She was asked about the catastrophic surrender in Afghanistan. She's proud of her support for it. She's been asked about the appeasement of Iran. She believes Joe Biden is right about appeasing Iran.

But now she comes out and all of a sudden she says, I'm for a strong military. Nobody believes that. She wants to cut the military. Even the Biden budget after inflation cuts the military. She's more interested in bringing social justice, diversity, equity, inclusion, and funding transgender changes than she is in a lethal fighting force.

PHILLIP: Last thing for you, Eric, I wonder --

LEVINE: So, if Trump can make that point, then we can win.

PHILLIP: You mentioned, I think the RFK, we've talked a lot about his conspiracies here on this show. Are you worried that Trump actually would put him in the government if he wins? I mean, it sounds like that's what R.F.K. Jr. really wants and that's one of the reasons that he's decided to endorse Trump.

LEVINE: You know, my crystal ball broke so I can't predict the future and I've -- I'm not good at reading people's minds -- what it is they want to achieve. My point is that we don't need people like RFK in the government. We don't need people at Tulsi Gabbard in the government.

They're exactly what conservatives Reagan wing of the party folks like myself don't want the traditional Reagan wing of the party to prevail. And Trump's policies for all the people -- all the people say that he's you know he's a -- has changed the party. Where he was most successful was when he put in place traditional Republican policies, deregulation, tax cuts, a strong foreign policy.

Look, Iran, was on the verge of economic destruction when Joe Biden became president. And then he decided he would bail out the Ayatollah and give him billions of dollars and pay ransom and we'll go back to the Iran nuclear deal and whatever. You know, his support for Israel has been tepid. That's a perfect example of what's going on in terms of being fringe.

The Democratic Party has an anti-Semitism problem. If you look at the college campuses just the other day at Cornell, today at Columbia, you have these same Jew-hating pro-Hamas lunatics putting up tents and encampments. I have not seen Kamala Harris go to Columbia and say, cut this garbage out, or go to Cornell and cut it out. I haven't seen Chuck Schumer either, but that's besides the point.

PHILLIP: But actually, I mean, I just have to say, both Kamala Harris and Chuck Schumer have denounced exactly the kinds of, you know -- you know, anti-Israel protests that you're describing there. But Eric Levine --

LEVINE: No, they have not. PHILLIP: -- really interesting --

LEVINE: I take issue with that. That's not accurate.

PHILLIP: Yes, he has. I mean --

LEVINE: That's not accurate.

PHILLIP: Eric Levine, thank you.

LEVENE: Chuck Schumer went to the --

PHILLIP: Really fascinating conversation with you. Thank you for joining us tonight. I want to bring in my panel because I want to make sure you guys get a chance to talk about that. He -- I saw you nodding, actually, as he talked in that last answer because he is making the point that the Republican that Trump was as president -- that brought actually a lot of just standard issue Republicans on board was just him kind of like following the playbook and tax cuts and all of that stuff. And that's the guy that they want to see and that's not the guy that they're seeing.

GRIFFIN: Correct. The part where he said that when he followed the Reagan wing of the party, the Trump presidency was successful. Absolutely, but we have a war in Ukraine, a ground invasion by Russia, where you've had tens of thousands of Ukrainians die. And now, Donald Trump's position is that he would allow Russia to invade other NATO allies and he would cut off funding to Ukraine.

So, he's telegraphing what his position is, and it is hardly what we saw in the first administration. Mike Pence is not going to be there to be guiding him along and saying, hey, this is the direction he should be. He's maybe right on Iran, but Israel, after Netanyahu acknowledged that Biden won the election, their relationship was completely fraught.

[22:40:00]

GRIFFIN: And finally, this issue of antisemitism absolutely exists on the far left. Donald Trump dined with an avowed neo-Nazi and one of the rankest anti-Zionist antisemites in this country. So, to act like it exists on one side is just absurd.

PINION: I mean, look, I'll simply say that the notion that foreign policy under the steady hand of Kamala Harris should be better than President Trump, I just think is not based in reality. I will say we should have Eric on more often. We could all just sit here and listen to him make the case for the Trump campaign.

But I do think it does come to that old kind of West Ring seventh season crossroad where Arnie Vinick says, "I'm growing the party." And you know, Steve Hodder says that, well, you know, I would like to see you unite the party that we already have.

And I think I would disagree with Eric slightly. I think President Trump in his own way remembers that 10 to 16 percent of people who voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2016 turned around and voted for him in the general election.

I think that he's looking at polling numbers that shows that somebody like RFK, whether you hate him, love him, think that he should be cast out of society and tied to a mask like Odysseus, is someone who is getting close to five percent of the polls in some of these swing states.

And so, hate him or love him, he is doing electoral math. He is trying to find a pathway forward after Democrats completely change the rules. So, I think that's just reality there.

PHILLIP: I think the point, though, that Eric is making is that it's addition and subtraction. There might be some subtraction happening here.

PONNURU: The frustration that you can really feel in his remarks is that he is making the case for Trump better than Trump is making the case for Trump right now.

ETIENNE: Well, there's also frustration with the fact that this is no longer that's no longer the party of Reagan. So, longer the party of Lincoln. It is now a MAGA movement which is consistently lost and underperform over the last three cycles.

GRIFFIN: That's my bigger issue because to be honest, I watched Kamala Harris' remarks live at the DNC and her words when it came to Ukraine, to NATO, to standing with our allies, to supporting Israel's rights to defend itself, sounded closer to a Republican than what we heard from Donald Trump and J.D. Vance.

PINION: Not to lead into it --

GRIFFIN: I don't know how she's going to lead, but the words are right. We talk about Kamala Harris like she just fell out of a coconut tree. She did not. She has been the vice president of the United States of America.

GRIFFIN: But I'll take it around here what happens --

PINION: She was a senator. She was an A.G. There is a legacy for how she will deal with these issues. She was proud of the fact that she was the last person in the room before they left Afghanistan. And we know how that ended.

COLES: But she's not the only one that's flip-flopped. Where I take real issue with Eric is the idea that somehow she's wrong to change her mind. J.D. Vance, anybody? What did he call Trump? He called him the new --

PHILLIP: All right, everyone, we got to go here, everyone.

PINION: Respectfully, I would make the argument. I want to say --I want to say --

PHILLIP: Joe, we got to go. Everyone, hold on. We've got a lot more to discuss. We want to save time for it. Coming up next, this is an important story. The family of a fallen service member, buried at Arlington is speaking out, saying that they are not happy with his grave showing up in a Trump TikTok video. We'll discuss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:47:22]

PHILLIP: Tonight, an unforced error from the Trump campaign that pits the former president against a military family. Trump team posted this video onto TikTok. That video shows the grave of a Green Beret, Master Sergeant Andrew Marcosano.

Marcosano took his own life after serving eight combat tours. And just hours ago, his family told "he New York Times" that the Trump campaign took that video without their permission and in a section of Arlington where photography is forbidden.

Panel is back with us. This has been, you know. kind of going around for a little while, but "The Times" getting this statement tonight really adds a new dimension to it. You know, the Trump campaign has been vehemently denying this.

And I just want to note that the person at the cemetery who confronted them about not being allowed to film there didn't put complaints in because she's afraid of retaliation --of attacks.

GRIFFIN: So, I did a number of these events at Arlington National Cemetery with Vice President Pence and there's a process who go through, there's protocol, you work with Arlington National Assembly, you work with officials from the Pentagon, and there are very strict rules of where you can be, you need certain permissions, and photography is only allowed in certain places.

The distinction here is this is a campaign event. He is not the sitting president, he is not the sitting vice president, because people are saying, well, other political figures have done events there. He's doing it in a purely campaign capacity. It was deeply inappropriate. A professional team would have known that.

And by the way, he was actually highlighting something that I think is an important argument for him, which is Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan and the loss of 13 lives at the Abbey Gate. There are so many ways to do that is not disgraceful and disparaging to veterans the way that this was handled.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, in this particular section, Section 60, as Alyssa points out, it's not all of Arlington where you can't do this. This particular section, you cannot have video photography in this section.

PONNURU: It was against the rules. I think the rules are there for good reason. But I also think that we should note that there are gold star families who appreciated Trump's gesture and have spoken out in his favor in this, which also shows you that these families of the fallen are just as divided as everybody else. PHILLIP: Yeah, I guess I hear that. But this is, look. It's a

cemetery, so there are going to be a lot of families who are represented. Some of them are supportive of Trump. Fine. But the family whose gravesite was also shown there, this is the statement, "According to our conversation with Arlington Cemetery, the Trump campaign staffers did not adhere to the rules that were set in place for this visit. Staff Sergeant Hoover's gravesite in section 60, which lays directly next to my brother's grave."

[22:50:07]

It's about respect not just for the families who were there with Trump, but the other families.

COLES: But it's also about him trying to overcome this phrase which has stuck with him, right? Which is that he said people who were buried in Arlington were suckers and losers. That he didn't understand. Well, but not by John Kelly, who was with him and whose own son died, actually. And who was his very close colleague.

And also, Trump's thing that, I don't get it. I don't get what these guys got out of it. Well, what they got out of it was a degree and a level of service which President Trump doesn't seem to understand. And you could tell that by the way that he --basically, almost had his foot on a gravestone and then a double thumbs up. What is a double thumbs up?

ETIENNE: And then no apology.

COLES: In a grave, right, by a grave. Right.

PHILLIP: And the Trump campaign --

COLES: It's extraordinary. For a man who's brilliant for imagery, that was a terrible moment for him.

PHILLIP: The Trump campaign attacked this worker at the Arlington Cemetery, calling them a despicable individual who does not deserve to represent the hallowed grounds of Arlington National Cemetery, a despicable individual who was clearly just here her job.

COLES: Well, in fact, didn't they say that she actually was having a mental episode?

PHILLIP: Oh, yeah.

COLES: They said she was having a mental health episode. T

PHILLIP: They said things --

GRIFFIN: And by the way, this goes back to your earlier point of this merry band of misfits who are all men who are around Donald Trump right now that cannot seem to massage messaging to sound like normal human beings who communicate in society and aren't like in cells living. I don't know, somewhere on the internet, the meanness, the cruelness, and the lack of accountability. There was, allegedly, an altercation that's been reported.

PHILLIP: And there's apparently a video of it that the Trump campaign has threatened to release but has not released it. I would like to see the video. I think we all would.

GRIFFIN: There are just basic parameters you have when honoring our fallen heroes that you should, regardless of politics, always adhere to. It was such an easy mistake and that they won't just own it.

PHILLLIP: And just apologize.

UNKNOWN: Oh, Suzy Wiles is a top --

PINION: In the end. take the rules and put them to the side. If there is one gold star family that feels as if they were wronged for even a minute longer than the lifetime of pain they're already enduring, then we should be honoring that. We should be respecting that. I think the Trump campaign should be calling them to apologize, irrespective of whether that apology is accepted or not.

But I do think, again, there's a lot of conjecture here and speculation. I just, it does appear that something happened here that harmed, frayed, the relationship between this gold star family and also them trying to make sure that their loved one is honored in a way that --

PHILLIP: Yeah, it's both what happened and how it was handled, both of them, I think, problematic. Joanna Coles, thank you so much for joining us --

COLES: My pleasure.

PHILLIP: --in our fifth seat. Everyone else, stay tight for us. We've got more with our panels giving us their nightcaps when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:57:35]

PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the "NewsNightcap". You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. Joe, you're up.

PINION: Look, I think the fourth estate is in trouble. I think they need to stop carrying water for Kamala Harris. I believe that the great tragedy of the war in Iraq is that people feel as if their government lied to them and the media helped them do it.

I think the great tragedy about COVID is that when the next pandemic comes, there were people that will not listen to our government because of the fact they feel like they were misled by the media and the government.

And I think that if Kamala Harris becomes the President of the United States of America, lead this great nation and she starts enacting policies that leave people wondering why they weren't told about it before she actually took the oath of office, I think it would be a crisis in this country. And I think that the splintering of the fourth estate in the aftermath of that will lead our country in a very dangerous place.

PHILLIP: I think --should be doing an interview right here on CNN --

GRIFFIN: Tomorrow night. So, my hot take, RFK Jr. is going to hurt Donald Trump more than he will help him. So, he's going to remain as a separate candidate on a number of key battleground states. He'll be on the ballot, Michigan, for example. So, diehard RFK supporters still have the opportunity to directly vote for him rather than Trump.

But then to Eric Levine's point earlier, for normie column Nikki Haley voter Republicans or even swing voters you need to win elections, he, Tulsi Gabbard, the anti-vax crowd are absolutely radioactive and he risks losing them. But Donald Trump will not distance himself from RFK because he loves the cachet of a Kennedy supporting him. So, he will stand by his man.

PHILLIP: Do not talk about that part of it enough. Ramesh.

PONNURU: I've got a public service announcement which is parents, look over your kids when they're at a museum. Museum in Haifa, Israel, saw a meeting of a four-year-old boy and a 3500-year-old jar. Did not go well for the jar. The museum is being surprisingly chill about it, saying we wanted people to have interactions, but we are going to ask people not to touch the object.

PHILLIP: Oh, my goodness. Okay, we'll not be doing that anytime soon. Ashley.

ETIENNE: Yeah, ten years ago to this very day, Barack Obama stood at the podium and wore a tan suit. The whole world was in an uproar about it. Republicans were calling for investigations. Fox News were running headlines saying how undignified it was, that the President of the United States is wearing a tan suit. Vintage politics, how far have we come? It's incredible.

PHILLIP: I mean, Kamala Harris in her coconut brown suit at the DNC was a whole thing, as well.

[23:00:02]

ETIENNE: They look good.

PHILLIP: My, my, how times have changed. Everyone, thank you very much for joining us. And thank you for watching "NewsNight State of the Race". "Laura Coates Live" -- it starts right now.