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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Intensifies Rhetoric That Allies Say Cost Him Debate; Pope Slams Harris and Trump, Tells U.S. to Vote Lesser Evil; Abby Speaks to Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson; CNN's Abby Phillip Interviews U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson; Abby Phillip Discusses Politics With "Have I Got Some News For You" Cast. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 13, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Donald Trump escalates his rhetoric despite the real world consequences.
REPORTER: Bomb threats at schools and kids being evacuated.
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The real threat is what's happening in our borders.
PHILLIP: And defends the far right conspiracy theorist inside his entourage.
TRUMP: We have very spirited people.
PHILLIP: Plus, Trump, Harris, and the Holy Roast. The pope criticizing both candidates, and advises Americans on the, quote, lesser of two evils.
Also --
JUSTICE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Public confidence is all we have.
PHILLIP: -- my revealing interview with the newest Supreme Court Justice. What Ketanji Brown Jackson says about the election, the court's credibility crisis, and why she almost gave up her entire career.
Live at the table, Coleman Hughes, Natasha Alford, Tricia McLaughlin, Jay Michaelson, and joining the conversation, the cast of the new CNN original series, Have I Got News for You. Welcome to a special edition of NewsNight, State of the Race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, happy Friday. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America is talking about, pet peeves and politics. Donald Trump tripling down on the rants, the tangents, and the conspiracies that his allies have told him cost him the debate, rhetoric that Kamala Harris tonight says that Americans are exhausted by.
He's set to speak in Las Vegas any moment now, but I'll start in Ohio. Schools in Springfield have been forced to evacuate for the second day in a row now over threats after Trump amplified baseless conspiracies about migrants eating pets in that community. Now, it's clear he doesn't care about any of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: No, no. The real threat is what's happening at our border. We will do large deportations from Springfield, Ohio, large deportations. We're going to get these people out. It's like an invasion from within. We're going to have the largest deportation in the history of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's worth noting that those Haitian immigrants in Springfield are in this country legally. But none of that really matters. And Trump is tripling down. I'm sure he's talked actually today about going to Springfield, going to Aurora, Colorado, where another story was taken out of context. He is doubling down on something that a lot of people who want him to succeed say is a dead end.
TRICIA MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Yes, Abby. I mean, I haven't seen any evidence that there's You know, any dead cats or dogs at the hands of anyone, any human, much less these, these migrants who are, like you said, here illegally. Some of these citizens have testified in front of the city council saying that there's, it's really chaos, that there's been cars burning, cars flipped, that they feel unsafe in their community.
Keep in mind, this is just failed federal policy. This is a community about 60,000 people. I'm from Ohio, about 30 or 40 minutes from Springfield. This is a community that has a poverty rate of about 20 percent, very, you know, working community. And so, federal policy led, while these are illegal migrants, this is 20,000 people coming into a community of 60,000 people being completely overrun.
It doesn't matter if they're migrants from Haiti or California. The schools are being overrun. The social services are being overrun. That is poor federal planning.
PHILLIP: Just to be clear, I mean, when you use terms like overrun, I think that's actually part of the problem. I mean, Governor Mike DeWine has talked about this. First of all, he's confirmed, in his understanding, there's no evidence of this whole thing with pets, but he also made the point that these people are coming into this town. Yes, there are a lot of them, but they're filling jobs that were open, jobs that were not being filled until they got there. And that the employers are saying, they're good workers, they're hard workers. We need them.
So, overrun, I think, is a turn of phrase that is designed to make people feel like there is some kind of, in Trump's words --
MCLAUGHLIN: That's what the citizens are saying. That's what the citizens on the ground are saying. That's not my words. That's theirs. So, let's also listen to these people's concerns. I don't think it's fair to pick apart rhetoric when these people are having real problems.
NATASHA ALFORD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: But also these people have been primed to use language like that, right? They've been listening to -- just hear me out.
[22:05:00]
They've been listening to a president which has been fear mongering, scapegoating these individuals, these communities, playing on racist tropes about -- think about the S-hole countries that were talked about. Those were countries with predominantly black and brown people.
PHILLIP: One of them was Haiti.
ALFORD: And one of them was Haiti, which, mind you --
JAY MICHAELSON, COLUMNIST, FORWARD: Which Trump contrasted with the country he wanted migrants to come from, which was Norway, right, like maybe the whitest country in the world.
ALFORD: And I think it goes without saying that. The history matters too, because so much of the destabilization that we see in Haiti is actually because of policies that the U.S. embraced historically, when they wouldn't even recognize the independence of Haiti as they broke free from their slave masters.
And so these are people who, as you said, Abby, they have work ethic, they have families, and all of this language is meant to dehumanize them, and, again, to oversimplify a really complicated issue. It's not to say that immigration isn't broken in this country, but when you make someone a scapegoat, it's easy to say, just kick them out.
PHILLIP: So, that's not all that Trump did today. I mean, the whole other thing that he's being dogged by, no pun intended, is this issue of Laura Loomer, who's on his plane. She is a conspiracy theorist of the highest order.
And he started the day by saying this about Laura Loomer, and being asked, frankly, about her 9/11 conspiracies and her racist comments about the vice president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Laura's been a supporter of mine, just like a lot of people are supporters, and she's been a supporter of mine. She speaks very positively of the campaign. I'm not sure why you asked that question, but Laura is a supporter. I don't control Laura. Laura has to say what she wants. She's a free spirit.
REPORTER: Your allies have expressed concern.
TRUMP: Well, I don't know. I mean, look, I can't tell Laura what to do. Laura is a supporter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: If this were any other person, if this were a Democrat or any other politician, wouldn't that be disqualifying?
COLEMAN HUGHES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It might be. I mean, look, Laura is a grade A nut job. I won't disagree with that. What I think, you know, from Trump's point of view, I think he's betting that this election is about immigration and that people will forget everything else, even if -- all these other issues are entertaining and interesting in the news cycle. But I think at the end of the day, he's betting that this election is about one thing, about the border, about immigration.
He may be right about that, okay? He might be wrong, but he might be right. And if he's right, it'll be because of this. Nativism is one of the most powerful forces in not just American politics, but world politics, and it is rooted in human nature. And you look at history, this is 100 percent true. And so we have had the biggest border and immigration crisis certainly in my lifetime in the past three years, and he is betting that being the toughest as possible on the border candidate, and screw all these other things, is going to win him the election. It's a high risk, high reward bet.
PHILLIP: And partly because is the other lesson that he's gotten from the 2016 election, which he also thought he won because of the issue of immigration.
MICHAELSON: Right. I guess I'm going to take issue a little bit that this kind of nativism is part of human nature, right? It's certainly true for human beings, homo sapiens, other primates, that we favor our in group over the out group. But there are different ways that that can express itself. And given that that is part of our human animal nature, to use rhetoric, it is true that people are suffering and people have anxieties, but to then fan those flames. We've seen this in the Jewish community before when Trump supported people who said Jews will not replace us, and then not long after that there was the Tree of Life shooter who was spouting the Great Replacement Theory.
So, I agree that there's an aspect to human nature that we favor our group, but what wise leaders do is work with that skillfully, not fan the flames of sort of the most violent aspects of who we are.
HUGHES: Trump is far from a wise leader, but he didn't support the people that said Jews will not replace us. That's been now thoroughly fact-checked.
MICHAELSON: He said there were fine people who marched together with them.
HUGHES: No, but that's been fact-checked by all the top fact- checkers.
MICHAELSON: What fine person marches with --
HUGHES: No, he said 15 seconds later, and the neo Nazis and white supremacists, I condemn them completely. So, he was talking about other conservatives that were not the ones that were saying Jews were not replacing us.
MICHAELSON: Right, so the ones who were like along for the ride with the torches.
HUGHES: It's important to be fair.
MICHAELSON: I don't think that the (INAUDIBLE) splitting hairs that way.
PHILLIP: I think that Jay's making a really, this is a complaint I hear from conservatives all the time. But the central point is actually the one that Jay is making. What's the utility in saying that the people marching alongside the neo-Nazis are fine people? How does that help?
HUGHES: Well, he distinguished between the conservatives that cared about the statue and he said the neo-Nazis and white supremacists, I condemn them completely. That's what he said.
MICHAELSON: Okay, but if I'm marching with a group and I'm a conservative and look next to me --
HUGHES: I wouldn't march with those people, Jay, but I'm saying you got to respect what he actually said.
PHILLIP: Maybe this conversation is actually emblematic of what this day has been like for Donald Trump, which is, you know, these baseless conspiracies about the immigrants in Ohio, defending this 9/11 -- I can't even call her a truther, 9/11 conspiracy theorist.
[22:10:06]
MICHAELSON: And Sandy Hook truther.
PHILLIP: And Sandy Hook truther. And it brings up an era for Trump that I think a lot of Republicans would like to forget. They don't want to be talking about Charlottesville. They don't want to be talking about this stuff.
ALFORD: I think with all of this, if you're confusing enough, vague enough, if you flip flop enough, it allows people to create their own conclusions, right? And the people who want to defend you and support you will be able to justify that, right? I think that's what it is. It's about creating confusion. And the old folks would say discernment, you know, that's a word that comes up a lot. If you have discernment as a leader, you don't walk around with someone like a Laura Loomer and then say, oh, I'm not responsible for what she does. What if she's walking around with a Klan hood, right?
Like you just -- you know what it means to stand with someone, right? You know what it means to let them have proximity to you. And I think it's a lot of playing dumb, frankly, and not taking responsibility. And it's a double standard, because, again, every single thing that I think about President Obama, anyone who was associated with him, right, it was a problem. The pastor who preached years ago, who was talking about, you know, the state of America, they found his transcript and they tied it to Obama. So, how is it that we criticize other leaders, but when it comes to Trump?
HUGHES: The Democrats thought that was unfair at the time. So, to be consistent, you'd have to say maybe it's unfair --
PHILLIP: To be fair, Obama gave a whole speech, you know, distancing himself from it, talking about race in America. That's the difference, I guess, the gulf between the two.
MICHAELSON: I just want to say, like, you know, first of all, you know, on the progressive side, God bless Laura Loomer, right? She's God's gift. If there's a conspiracy theory that's true, she should be a Democrat plant. She is so far to the right of the center that this is God's gift to the Democrats. So, Shabbat Shalom, Laura Loomer. I mean, I think this is a fantastic win for our side.
PHILLIP: I'm not even sure you can place her firmly in any sort of ideological prism here.
Everyone, stick around for us. Coming up next, the pope is blasting both Vice President Harris and Donald Trump and gives some blunt advice to American voters.
Plus, Roy Wood Jr. and the cast of CNN's new original series, Have I Got News For You, they're going to join me live at the table. Don't miss it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Pope Francis is weighing in on the upcoming presidential election. He's describing the choice between Donald Trump and Vice President Harris as the lesser of two evils.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: You have to vote, and one must choose the lesser of two evils. Who is the lesser of two evils? That lady or that gentleman? I don't know. Everyone with a conscience should think on this and do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Back at the table, and the reason for this is he talks about Trump's views on migration as being one evil, Harris' views on abortion as being another evil.
MICHAELSON: So, I'm going to say what maybe you might not expect me to say, which, I mean, I actually think this is just --
PHILLIP: I have no idea, actually, to be honest. You're the rabbi.
MICHAELSON: So, let me tell you what I think about Catholicism. Here's my informed view. No, I think, I think that line is it makes -- it does make it seem like he's condemning both sides, but I think he's saying the truth just as a matter of doctrine. Both of these candidates are promoting policies that run contrary to that dogma, right?
But I think what he's sort of tacitly saying is, it's not one or the other that abortion is a veto because there are many conservative Catholics who see this as a one issue election, not immigration, by the way, but abortion. And I think what the pope is trying to say is, well, there's teachings on all sides of this, right? So, Donald Trump is violating Catholic teachings, this is the pope, not me, on migration. Also, the pope has made very outspoken statements on climate change, on economic inequality.
And so I trust people of faith to do exactly what the pope suggested, which is total up all of the different ways in which these candidates do or don't reflect our deeply held moral beliefs.
PHILLIP: Some people interpreted what he had to say was kind of putting Harris and Trump on equal footing. Is that how you hear it?
HUGHES: Yes. So, I think I agree with you. Obviously, everyone knows the Catholic Church has been opposed to abortion vehemently for, you know, forever. And less people know it. I think they've been very supportive of immigration and being humane for a very long time, going back to several popes. What's new here is that I don't think the Catholic Church has ever put those two issues on a par, which is to say, abortion has been a much more important issue in Catholicism than immigration. And the fact that he's basically saying these are even Steven, it is, you know, in historical terms is raising the importance of the immigration issue to Catholics, which I think that's what's new here.
MICHAELSON: Yes, I think this is a progressive statement on balance.
PHILLIP: It's very interesting, because, I mean, you know, you do -- there are all kinds of different forms of Christianity, of course, and I saw a lot from progressive Christians, if you want to call them that, pointing out that the bible's teachings actually do elevate the voices of the oppressed, of the marginalized, of the exiles. And that what the pope is essentially saying is that that is important too.
ALFORD: I thought it was notable that the pope called a separation of families at the border cruelty of the highest form when it happened. So, I agree with that. I think he's calling it out as a moral issue, which think about all the rhetoric we're hearing again, demonizing people, you know, saying that they're eating pets.
[22:20:00]
It's all meant to lower, our, our compassion, our empathy for people who are struggling. And so I do think it's powerful.
But I do think it's important. Kamala Harris has been very strategic about how she's talked about abortion. She said, if you have deeply held beliefs about this, your faith, hold on to those things. This is about government interference and respecting people's privacy. And so I think in her framing it that way, she's making space for people who might disagree.
PHILLIP: Are these comments going to cause upheaval in the -- there's not as many right-leaning Catholics, but it's a growing number.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I'm Catholic, and, I mean, Pope Francis is the head of the church. He consistently makes political remarks. Remember, he talked about Ukraine needs to wave the white flag back during the Iraq war, obviously a different pope but publicly criticized George H.W. Bush -- or excuse me, George W. Bush for the Iraq war. So, I mean, the Catholic Church consistently delves into politics. I mean, religion, morality, as we were saying with politics is naturally intertwined. So, I'm not surprised. I don't -- we'll see what happens.
PHILLIP: It's not surprising from this pope in particular.
MCLAUGHLIN: Especially Pope Francis. He's very outspoken.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone, thank you all for being here.
Coming up next, we've got a special treat for you at the table. The hosts of the new CNN comedy series, Have I Got News For You, they're going to be here joining me at the table, Roy Wood Jr., Amber Ruffin, and Michael Ian Black. We'll talk about the debate, Taylor Swift's endorsement, and even Robin De Niro's assessment of Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR AND PRODUCER: He's a jerk. He's an idiot. Who wants to meet a clown like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: Ketanji Brown Jackson had just graduated from high school when she decided that she was going to be a Supreme Court justice. She even said so in her college essays. She wrote that she wanted to become the first black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage.
One out of two isn't too bad. It's also one of the many stories that Jackson writes about in her new memoir entitled Lovely One. I had the opportunity to sit down with her today and we talked about the election and the court's credibility crisis, but also her journey to the bench, including the role that race played in it all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JACKSON: Well, race has played a significant role, in who I am and who I've become. I start the book by talking about my family, and in particular my grandparents who moved from Georgia, rural Georgia, at a time of legal segregation. And the impact that that had on their lives and the lives of my parents really contributed to my own situation. My parents, I think, really saw this as their opportunity to do all the things that they didn't get to do. And so they encouraged me to participate and to take full advantage of the freedoms that African- Americans then enjoyed.
PHILLIP: So much of this book is deeply personal, and you share about your family, your husband and your two daughters. You also revealed for the first time that your older daughter, Talia, is autistic.
JACKSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: I should note that she consented to this being written about in the book. But this really struck me, you wrote, had I truly been of the mindset to accept what was going on with my child, I probably would have quit my job to attend to her needs full time.
JACKSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Did you really consider walking away from all that you had dreamed of for yourself and all that you had accomplished?
JACKSON: Absolutely. I mean, we struggled when she was young, trying to really understand what she needed, what she needed to be for support in education and in other areas. But we didn't have a diagnosis. We didn't know that she was autistic until about 7th grade. And so I kept thinking, well, if I can just find the right school, or if I can put her in the right lessons, or after school program, or find the right nanny, everything will be fine.
And so it was that delusion in a way that kept me thinking I should just continue to stay in my job while I look for yet another accommodation. I think if I had known earlier, I probably would have just decided that I needed to care for her full time. I really wanted people to know that you can reach success, you can do things that you've dreamed about doing, even if you have challenges in your family.
PHILLIP: Yes. And you talk about being a working mom.
JACKSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Which is something that is hard no matter who you are. And you said, when you returned to your law firm job after your maternity leave, it was the stuff of nightmares.
JACKSON: It was.
PHILLIP: Why?
JACKSON: Well, you know, I missed my baby, which was a difficult thing just emotionally to go back into the workforce after having taken some maternity leave time to be with her.
[22:30:00]
BROWN: At that time, workplaces weren't necessarily set up to accommodate working mothers and I had to figure out ways to pump my breast milk and then store it, you know, in an environment that really wasn't set up for that purpose.
PHILLIP: That will be familiar to a lot of women.
BROWN JACKSON: Exactly. And then there was the sort of feeling of not meeting expectations, both at work and at home. You can't be in two places at once. And there were, obviously, expectations for me and my performance, both in the house and in my job and I felt very inadequate at the time.
PHILLIP: What do your girls say to you when they hear about how tough it was for you to manage those things?
BROWN JACKSON: You know, I think they're proud of my having gotten through it and our family having turned out the way it did. I had a point in which my younger daughter decided that she was going to endorse me for the Supreme Court.
PHILLIP: She wrote a letter to the president.
BROWN JACKSON: She wrote a letter to the president telling him that he should appoint me. And that really made me feel like I must have done something right.
PHILLIP: Other women who actually have reached your heights, for example, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg back in 2009. She told our colleague Joan Biskupic that even in spite of all of her extensive experience, her accolades, she didn't always feel like her male colleagues on the court heard her voice. She said, "When I will say something and I don't think I'm a confused speaker, it isn't until someone else says it that everyone will focus on the point." I wonder, I mean, do you feel heard now?
BROWN JACKSON: In the court?
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BROWN JACKSON: Yes, I do actually, and maybe that's just because I'm asserting myself. No, I haven't had that same experience on the court.
PHILLIP: And you are asserting yourself, asking more questions than many of your colleagues, writing forceful opinions. Is that -- is that intentional to assert yourself in this moment?
BROWN JACKSON: You know, I was a judge for seven, eight years before I joined the court. And for most of that time, I was a district judge, which is at the trial level. And you have your own courtroom. It's been a challenge, I think, to have that translate into the collective decision-making model of the court. If I have a point I want to make, if I'm trying to ask my colleagues
to consider an issue, then I feel very strongly that it's my obligation to speak up because this is an important seat and role, and I'm going to take full advantage of it.
PHILLIP: In the time that you've been on the court, because you have written your own dissents in some pretty big cases, there's disagreement, obviously, among your colleagues over the law. In one case, Justice Thomas devoted roughly seven pages of his concurring opinion on affirmative action to critique your opinion and your dissent. He also read that opinion out loud, just feet away from where you're sitting. What was that experience like?
BROWN JACKSON: One of the nice parts about the collective decision- making model is that the justices have the opportunity to express their views. And of course, you can dissent. And Justice Thomas, in his concurring opinion, decided to talk about my dissent. In one way, I think I was flattered -- I was flattered because it meant that I must have been making points that were worth responding to.
PHILLIP: In one of your dissenting opinions, this is on the presidential immunity case, a major decision by the court. You characterized the majority's opinion as a five-alarm. fire. That is pretty dire language. Why did you specifically use those words?
BROWN JACKSON: I wanted to highlight some of the consequences that I foresaw as a result of this particular decision. This was a significant case. I think everybody recognized that. And I thought it was important to make clear to the American people, at least my view, of what the potential consequences were.
PHILLIP: You write in the book about this idea of precedent, which is coming up a lot lately. You talked about how your mentor, Justice Breyer, emphasized that judges are obligated to observe precedent.
[22:35:00]
This court has overturned precedent in some very significant ways. Is there a risk that in doing so, they could lose the confidence of the public?
BROWN JACKSON: Yes, I mean, you know, precedent is very important. It is actually one of the constraints on judicial authority that has existed since the beginning of the court. The idea that judges have limited power.
And one of the things that Alexander Hamilton, for example, talked about, and I talk about this in the book a little bit, is that the judiciary would not be the most dangerous branch. In fact, it would be the least dangerous branch, in part because it was constrained in certain ways. And one of them is by understanding that when you get an issue, you're not looking at it cold.
PHILLIP: If years from now the composition of the court were to change substantially and the issue of women's reproductive rights and abortion came back up, would it be appropriate for the court to revisit and perhaps even overturn the Dobbs decision?
BROWN JACKSON: Oh, I'm not going to predict what would happen in the future. I can't say whether or not it's appropriate in the abstract.
PHILLIP: Part of the reason I'm asking these questions is, in this moment, so many Americans are looking at the courts. They see 6-3 decisions being handed down along what seems to be ideological lines. Do you have concerns about that perception that the public might think that legal differences are aligning so closely with political differences?
BROWN JACKSON: I think it is a concern for the court as an institution because public confidence is basically all we have. You know, the court does not have the power of the purse, it does not have an army, it can't make people enforce or follow its opinions.
And so, it's really important for maintenance of the rule of law that people believe in the justices and their rulings especially in these very contentious cases. So, you ask me do I have a concern? Yes, but at a sort of institutional level the entire court is concerned about that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Part two of my conversation with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson will come up very shortly. But first, we've got the host of the new CNN original series, "Have I Got News for You". They're joining me live at the table. We've got a lot to talk about. Hey guys.
AMBER RUFFIN, "HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU" TEAM CAPTAIN: Hey.
PHILLIP: Hello.
PHILLIP: Welcome.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[22:42:23]
PHILLIP: We've got some special guests at the table tonight, but first, I have some beef with one of you. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY WOOD JR., "HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU" HOST: "Have I Got News For You" -- it's coming to CNN this fall. Pros and cons list.
RUFFIN: Pro, hosted by Roy Wood Jr.
MICHAEL IAN BLACK, "HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU" TEAM CAPTAIN: Pro, with Amber Ruffin.
RUFFIN: Pro, with Michael Ian Black.
WOOD JR.: Oh. Con, people might confuse you with Abby Phillip.
RUFFIN: Pro, people might confuse me for Abby Phillip.
BLACK: Are you not Abby Phillips?
RUFFIN: Pro, you know I'm not.
BLACK: I was told this was going to be with Abby Phillips. I love her.
WOOD JR.: It's Abby Phillip. Oh, there's no S.
BLACK: Okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And Michael Ian Black's choice now at the table, along with Roy Wood Jr. and Amber Ruffin. Welcome.
BLACK: Hi, Abby Phillip.
PHILLIP: Hi, Michael Ian Black.
BLACK: I know I'm not the first person to make that mistake.
PHILLIP: No.
BLACK: Okay.
PHILLIP: No. I've been told it's a sign of respect.
RUFFIN: Oh.
PHILLIP: Okay, Roy, you're the captain of this new show. The CNN original series, "Have I Got News For You". It's going to serve up an edgy and comedic take on the news of the week, starts tomorrow, 9 P.M. Eastern Time. Welcome to the table. So, but you guys are mortal enemies because your team captain's on opposite ends of things.
BLACK: On screen, we're mortal enemies.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BLACK: Off screen, we're mortal enemies.
PHILLIP: Right.
PHILLIP: Don't touch her.
BLACK: I love her. I mean, she's no Abby Phillips, but I know.
PHILLIP: So, let's -- I am very curious because Michael, you have written a children's book about a --one Donald Trump.
BLACK: I have.
PHILLIP: How would you explain this past week's debate to my three- year-old or a four-year-old?
BLACK: I would say to your three-year-old, turn off the television. Do anything else other than watch what you're seeing on the debate stage right now. Like it's not -- it's not healthy for adults. I don't know that it's healthy for a child.
PHILLIP: What happened? How did you see it?
WOOD JR.: I saw the debate. I feel like we're in a space now and we were just talking about this on set earlier. Is a debate still a place for a candidate to present policy points in 90-second digestible chunks? Or is it a place to just figure out who's less crazy? It's just -- it's a a two-hour sobriety, field sobriety test. That's really what a debate is. Who can not say they're eating the dogs?
[22:45:00]
RUFFIN: It's hard -- it's hard to say -- it's hard not to say.
WOOD, JR.: Well, especially if it's happening.
RUFFIN: It's hard not to accuse people of eating dogs. Sorry.
WOOD JR.: Yeah, you know when it's happening. You know, they say it's happening. I heard it's happening, so it's happening.
RUFFIN: No, but Kamala spanked him so bad because all she had to do was be a normal human being on planet Earth. And she achieved that within the first 10 seconds. It was beautiful.
PHILLIP: It almost seems like the debate unlocked something in Trump. Like, after that it was Laura Loomer. It was, you know, just hanging out with these conspiracy theorists, he doubled down on the cats and the dogs. And then earlier today, here's what he said about her and her old job at McDonald's.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (R): And then you have Kamala's claim that she worked at McDonald's. She never worked at McDonald's. It's a lie. They went in, they investigated it and the fake news won't report that. You said she stood over those French fries when they were being fried and it was so tough work such that she never worked there. She's a liar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACK: It's the new burden conspiracy. Did she work at a McDonald's in Kenya? Like, where is this McDonald's exactly? It's so absurd.
PHILLIP: Donald Trump is coming for your job.
WOOD JR.: Nobody would lie about making burgers. It's one of the hardest, toughest things you can do. Nobody is going to just say, just McDonald's. PHILLIP: The argument was that she didn't put it on her resume when
she was applying for -- don't laugh. I mean. But the real truth is, who would put McDonald's on your resume when you're applying for a legal job?
WOOD JR.: Unless you go into Burger King, there's no reason to put McDonald's on your resume. At what point is this law firm calling the McDonald's to see if you're duplicitous, if you are good with reading the briefs? I don't know any other legal word other than briefs. You know, are you reading the habeas corpus?
BLACK: I was stuck on duplicitous. I was like, whoa.
WOOD JR.: Yeah.
BLACK: That's impressive.
WOOD JR.: I went to college for five years but I finished.
PHILLIP: Trump is really, I mean, he's in a weird place, I think, psychologically, where he's kind of falling back on his own instincts about how to operate in politics. And it's this kind of stuff. It's like, we got to go after the French fries, and whether she was really there, we have to go after, you know, the way she laughs. We have to say that maybe she's half or not really black. I don't know.
RUFFIN: I don't like Donald Trump's policies, and I don't like his behavior, but I love, and I'm sorry, I love when he shouts a lie with all of his heart. It's crazy. I love it. She -- like, why? Why? I love it.
BLACK: That's been his entire political career. It's just yelling lies and people loving it.
WOOD JR.: Well, it worked for a long time. And I think the one thing, you know, even on this network right after the debate, when they were talking with the people who had been, I guess, kind of sequestered and hadn't watched any post-debate coverage and they were talking to, you know, kind of a round table of undecided voters here, is the idea that out of this debate, we finally have undecided voters who just said, I would have liked to have heard more about her policies. It's like we're going back to 2000.
PHILLIP: Do you think that's real? I mean, to your point earlier, I mean, do you think people really want to hear what she thinks or is that like a way of saying, I can't trust this lady until some indefinite time in the future.
WOOD JR.: I think those people are moving the goalposts, but I would rather them say that than be coming on TV echoing the lies that Trump said. I think this close to the election, if you are still an undecided voter, to some degree, you are a lazy voter who's not trying. You're not going out and seeking out the stuff.
So, to say you have not seen her say a thing about the thing, it's been two years of campaigning, man. What have you not -- what link did you not click? What did you not scroll by? What's in your algorithm where you haven't seen at least one thing that you know she's about? And if you're going to argue she flip-flopped on whatever, because that's the new thing they're pulling out, right? Oh, you said this, but now you're saying this. Go to the website, go to the Instagram.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, she did change her positions on a lot of things, but so has Donald Trump. I wonder though, Taylor Swift has entered the chat, and she's endorsed. What do you think is the impact, ultimately, of her jumping in for Kamala Harris?
BLACK: Well, clearly, like, celebrity endorsements are debatable in terms of the effect that they have, but, I mean, does anybody move the needle like Taylor Swift does? I mean, what was that thing about thousands and thousands and thousands of people were registering when she put that endorsement out.
PHILLIP: Right. Yeah.
BLACK: And I'm guessing most of those people are not going to end up voting Trump.
WOOD JR.: What's been the vibe at her concerts? You've been to a few.
BLACK: I've been to many of them.
PHILLIP: How many have you been to?
BLACK: Fifty-two.
PHILLIP: Oh, I didn't realize we had a Swiftie at the table, okay. I mean, speaking of celebrity endorsements.
BLACK: Thank you, Abby.
PHILLIP: You're so welcome.
BLACK: Thank you for calling me a celebrity. I assume that's where you were heading with this.
[22:50:01]
RUFFIN: No, she was not calling you a celebrity.
BLACK: Oh my God.
RUFFIN: I'm sorry.
BLACK: Oh, I see.
PHILLIP: This is actually a celebrity un-endorsement. This one comes from Robert De Niro. Here's what he had to say about Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR AND PRODUCER: He's a jerk. He's an idiot. Who wants to meet a clown like that? He thinks he's a gangster. He does everything like a gangster. I don't think that gangsters in that world would think much of him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: This is a guy who knows gangsters. He's played 14 of them.
WOOD JR.: Yes.
PHILLIP: So, people will listen, I presume.
RUFFIN: Do you think this broke Trump's heart to hear?
WOOD JR.: It had to.
RUFFIN: It had to sting, right?
WOOD JR.: De Niro's a quintessential New Yorker. So, to get like -- it's one thing for him to say, yay, Kamala. But for him to call him not a gangster and say that --
RUFFIN: "He's an idiot."
WOOD JR.: Yeah, that one's got to sting.
RUFFIN: It's got to sting.
WOOD JR.: I just don't know how much, ultimately. So, I believe that celebrities can bring attention to the issues, but I think it's on the politicians and their charisma, lack thereof, in terms of retention. Like, okay, you register all these people to vote. Please go to the polls. Please deal with the nonsense that's going on. Please deal with all of the voter fraud and all of the nonsense.
Because most of these people, wherever they live, there's some law being put in place to make the act of voting more difficult, as well. And so, whether or not the celeb endorsement is sustainable beyond that. But if Taylor Swift is getting people to pay attention to politics, it is net positive. Same as Megan Thee Stallion coming out on stage in Atlanta. The same as, I hate to say it, Hulk Hogan and --
BLACK: Kid Rock?
WOOD JR.: Kid Rock and Amber Rose. Yeah, anybody that just people go, ooh, I like you. Okay, well, tell me about abortion laws.
RUFFIN: No one moves the needle like Hulk Hogan. Nobody can do it either.
PHILLIP: All right. So, Roy, tomorrow night, 9 P.M., you're watching CNN. What are we going to see?
WOOD JR.: You're going to see three amazing people right here making sense of everything that happened this week in news.
PHILLIP: And it's not just, I mean, it's a lot of politics, but it's not just politics.
WOOD JR.: No, no, absolutely. I wouldn't even say that it's politically dominant.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
WOOD JR: It's just what has been the conversation in the zeitgeist across the gamut. It could be the debate. It could be all the way to Shannon Sharp and him not knowing how to use Instagram live. There is a spectrum of topics that we could get into.
But the show, you know, the mothership show has been on for almost 35 seasons in England. So, we're in good hands and it's a format that's been done well overseas and so we're bringing it over here.
PHILLIP: Is there a winner at the end of the day?
BLACK: If my team wins then yes. If her team wins, no. Then it doesn't matter.
PHILLIP: Okay, okay.
RUFFIN: Please.
BLACK: It'll be Amber's team.
RUFFIN: Look, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make my team the winning team. Will I pay Roy money? Yeah. Will I pay Michael in the shins? Yeah.
PHILLIP: Okay.
WOOD JR.: It's simple. If you have watched a quiz show before, if you have watched the news, if you are up on those two things, you will understand the format of the game. We're using a quiz show format with no money and no point to present and have a conversation about topics with amazing guests that come on every week, as well.
PHILLIP: So, can you tell us who the other comedians are or is that a secret?
WOOD, JR: Well, no, it's not just comedians that are guests.
PHILLIP: Okay.
WOOD JR.: So, tomorrow night, it's Matt Welch and we're going to have Robin Thede.
PHILLIP: Okay, all right, this should be fun. Guys, thank you all for being here. We're looking forward to watching the first, the inaugural American episode of "Have I Got News for You" tomorrow 9 P.M., right here on CNN.
BLACK: Thank you, Abby Phillips.
RUFFIN: I'm, too.
PHILLIP: You're banned from the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:21]
PHILLIP: More now from my interview with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: When you dissent, as you have because of the composition of the court quite a lot since you've been on the court, it is notable. But it's also notable when you side with the conservatives and you've done so just slightly more than your colleagues, Justice Elena Kagan or Justice Sotomayor, most recently in this Fisher versus United States case, that's the January 6th prosecution case.
You agreed with the majority that the Justice Department did improperly use its obstruction statute. The severity of what happened on that day is something that you wrote about in your book. Was that a hard decision for you to make?
BROWN JACKSON: I wouldn't say it was a hard decision. And this is an example, I think, of the difference between law and politics. I ruled in that case consistent with what I believe the law required, given the statute at issue, the context in which it was enacted.
PHILLIP: Tomorrow is your birthday.
BROWN JACKSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Happy early birthday.
BROWN JACKSON: Thank you.
PHILLIP: You share that birthday with someone who is an idol of yours --
BROWN JACKSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Constance Baker Motley. She was the first woman to argue before this high court. Now, you're sitting on it. What does that feel like right at this moment?
BROWN JACKSON: Oh, it's such an honor to be able to serve in this capacity. Judge Motley was an icon.
[23:00:00]
For so many people, it became partly a goal of mine to get a federal judicial appointment because I learned of her experience and so admired her. But Judge Motley, who argued something like 10 cases in the Supreme Court and won nine of them, didn't have an opportunity to sit on the Supreme Court because she grew up in a time where that was not going to be possible.
And so, I feel so grateful that I have this chance and I'm doing what I can to serve the American people to the best of my ability. (END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: And my thanks to the Justice. It is a fascinating book. Thank you very much for watching a busy "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
