Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump's Ex-Chief Of Staff Sounds Alarm On Electing Him; Trump's Ex-Chief Of Staff Says, He'd Love To Be A Dictator; John Kelly Says, Trump's Enemy Within Threat Is Alarming; Presidential Election Happens In Fifteen Days; Eminem Endorses Harris. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 22, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, the definition of a fascist.
JOHN KELLY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF FOR TRUMP: Certainly, an authoritarian admires people who are dictators.
PHILLIP: Donald Trump's former chief of staff goes on the record and on tape to say his ex-boss --
KELLY: The only president that has all but rejected what America is all about,
PHILLIP: -- cannot win again.
Plus, this looks like a job for Eminem and Barack Obama, tell voters Come follow them and get Kamala Harris in the White House.
And losing his luxury, Joe DiMaggio's pinstripes, a Mercedes, a Manhattan penthouse, Rudy Giuliani gets hit with an order to turn over his most valuable possessions to Georgia election workers he defamed.
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, David Urban and Sarah Matthews.
With 13 days to go, Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening to you. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, nothing good to say. Tonight, a tape the Kamala Harris campaign will want Americans to hear, Donald Trump's one time chief of staff, John Kelly, talking unvarnished about the former president.
He runs through a litany of episodes, how Trump held disdain for service members, calling them losers and suckers on multiple occasions, he says, how Trump looked down on disabled veterans, how Trump required explanations for why Hitler was not good, how Trump prized personal loyalty above constitutional principle, and how Trump, in Kelly's view, met the dictionary definition of a fascist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Certainly, the former president is in the far right area, he's certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators. He has said that. So, he certainly falls into the general definition of a fascist, for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's fair to say that never in this country's history has a former president or someone seeking the office of the presidency been described in this way, not just by John Kelly, not just by one former military officer, but by another. Remember, Mark Milley, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said, I realize he's a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country, a fascist to the core.
It's chilling.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: There's a reason that half of his cabinet is not supporting him. And I think that when you look at these comments from his own former chief of staff, John Kelly, look, this is someone who is handpicked to be his chief of staff recommended by Senator Tom Cotton.
He's a retired, decorated general and a Gold Star father. I think everyone at this table would agree that he's a good and honorable man. But he saw firsthand, up close and personal what kind of leader that Donald Trump was. And now two weeks before the election, he's seeing the writing on the wall and he's afraid that we are heading toward reelecting Donald Trump and putting him back in power. So, I think him speaking out is really powerful.
And to describe I think that you can't just take your own former boss as a fascist and say that he has no regard for the Constitution, to say that he would operate like a dictator if we let him, I think that the American people need to listen to this and take his words very seriously because this is someone who saw him in the Situation Room decision making and is saying that this guy is a danger.
PHILLIP: I mean, David Urban, you served as well. You went to West Point. You understand the gravity of this coming from military officers.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I know, and I happen to know Mark Milley very well. I know John Kelly. I knew John Kelly when he was South Comm commander.
PHILLIP: I mean, I understand that you support Donald Trump, but I wonder just looking at this from the outside, why would two former military officers who really have absolutely nothing to gain from this kind of commentary, why would they say something like this if they didn't believe that it was true?
[22:05:03]
URBAN: So, you know, to be fair, John Kelly was asked, they read the dictionary definition and he asked him, does he fit in that definition, and that was John Kelly's answer. So, it was a little bit of a, you know, does he fit in this definition? He wasn't volunteering. He didn't call Jeff Goldberg and say, hey, Jeff, let me tell you something.
PHILLIP: Actually, do you mind if I play?
URBAN: No, play it again. This is in The New York times. This is the audio. This is what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Well, I'm looking at the definition of fascism. It's a far right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy.
So, certainly, in my experience, those are the kinds of things that he thinks would work better in terms of running America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
URBAN: Right. So, he was asked the definition, he was read the definition that he volunteered.
PHILLIP: He reads the definition.
URBAN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: So, he's not coming off the cuff. He's been thinking about this.
URBAN: Yes. Look, I have a great deal of admiration for both John Kelly and Mark Milley. I think that Sarah said, I think they're good people, but you know, they're entitled to their opinions. I could give you a long laundry list of other military officers who feel differently, who served with President Trump, who served in the military, who feel completely differently about the president.
They're entitled to their opinions. It's a great thing about America. They can say their piece and they get one vote on Election Day. So, you know, have at it. I think it's, you know, it's somewhat interesting that it appears what is it, 14 days, 13 days before an election, as opposed to, you know --
MATTHEWS: This is the time when Americans are tuning in though. So, he's trying to make his comments, I think, have the most impact. And I would argue, too, like --
URBAN: He could have said it when he left, the day he left. MATTHEWS: But the other military leaders who served with him, who you're talking about, who are supporting him, and saw him up close and personal, did anyone else spend as much time with Donald Trump as John Kelly? Because I would argue that probably no one spent as much time with him as he did.
And so I think that his account actually probably matters more than some of those other folks because he saw him so much.
URBAN: So, people will say, the question, natural question, is if John Kelly thought so poorly of Donald Trump, why did he stay so long? Why did he not resign?
MATTHEWS: I think in the coming from the military perspective, and you probably can speak on this better than I can and have an understanding of it, I think he didn't want to have to come forward because he didn't want to have to disparage a U.S. president, but he has seen that we are heading in that direction where it is very real that Donald Trump will be put back in the Oval Office.
And so he felt a duty to come forward, even if it conflicts with maybe his military values and trying to keep these things separate, but I think that he felt obligated to come forward because he loves this country and is worried about this.
URBAN: I have no doubt of John Kelly's patriotism, Mark Milley's patriotism, I'm not questioning that at all.
PHILLIP: He also talks -- I mean, we'll talk about this a little bit as the show goes on, but he does talk about Trump saying something recently that actually precipitated him speaking out.
One of the other eye-popping things in both The New York times and in The Atlantic is John Kelly talking about Trump repeatedly talking to him about Hitler, and saying that he commented more than once -- or actually this is a New York Times sound. We have it. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: He commented more than once that, you know, that Hitler did some good things too.
First of all, you should never say that. But if you knew what Hitler was all about from the beginning to the end, everything he did was in support of his racist, fascist life, you know, philosophy so that nothing he did, you could argue was good. It was certainly not done for the right reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think, first of all, I don't know John Kelly, but I agree. I think he's an honorable person. His family and his son certainly made the ultimate sacrifice for the country. So, he certainly earned an opinion here. And he's earned a political opinion. But I think like everything else with Donald Trump, opinions vary, whether you're coming out of the military or the private sector, or government or anything else.
And I agree that two weeks before an election will cause some people to look at this in a jaundice way, like, you know, you're trying to drop this here at the end. And there will be people who don't believe it, there will be people who refute it, and Donald Trump himself also refutes it.
I would just humbly submit to Mr. Kelly that if he's worried about Hitler, and he's worried about fascism, he ought to pick up the newspaper. There's thousands of Hitlers, running around this country right now, running around college campuses, running around New York City, chasing Jewish people around, blocking their access on college campuses. If you're worried about Hitler, and you're talking about Donald Trump, maybe open your eyes and take in what's happening on the American left in this country.
[22:10:02]
Those are the Hitlers I'm worried about.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let me just --
PHILLIP: I'll let Bakari address this, but I also I want to keep on this subject that we're talking about.
SELLERS: Let me just respectfully say that I don't even agree with many of the protests that are going on college campuses, but it's more than far. The line has been crossed. You are over there and the line is behind you to compare college students who are protesting for Palestinian rights to Adolf Hitler.
JENNINGS: They're literally chasing the Jewish students around UCLA and blocking their access.
SELLERS: There aren't many more pro Israel Democrats that you will find than myself.
And so I hear you and I understand that their anti-Semitism needs to be rooted out. But what I'm also saying is that your comment was way far beyond the pale.
But I want to go back to John Kelly for a second, because all of you all have humbly come to John Kelly and say that we agree with what you said. But I want you to close your eyes for a second and imagine if anybody, anybody dare say that Kamala Harris praised Adolf Hitler. Imagine if anybody dare say that Kamala Harris was a fascist. Imagine if anybody dare say Kamala Harris believed in authoritarianism.
Just think about that Kamala Harris is having to run the 110 hurdles with high heels on and do a back flip at the end and land a perfect somersault in order to just be in the race with Donald Trump. And Donald Trump gets to have his former chief of staff say that he was a communist, say that he was an authoritarian, a fascist and praise Adolf Hitler and Republicans in this country sit here and sit on their hands.
And so, yes, you know what's crazy? I don't necessarily agree with all the college protests either, Scott.
JENNINGS: They're not just in college, by the way. There's plenty of non-college students.
SELLERS: That's fine. And that's all good and dandy. But what's also crazy, that's -- no, what we're saying is we're agreeing on that. And we can agree on that. And me and you, we can go out on these college campuses and have those discussions. And Ashley may disagree with me on that, and that's fine. That is what happens at this table with Abby Phillip. But the most amazing thing is that Donald Trump is the only man I know who can have David Urban and Scott Jennings and other Republicans when someone praises Adolf Hitler, simply say --
JENNNINGS: He says it didn't happen.
URBAN: No. Bakari, no, hold on, not far across that line. No, because I'm not saying that praising Adolf Hitler is a good thing. Scott's not saying it's praising Adolf Hitler is a good thing. Neither of us are saying that.
SELLERS: No, we're not saying that. Let me be clear. Let me be clear. I want to be clear with you because both of us -- I want to be extremely clear. What I am saying, though, is that you're in a pretzel right now because there is someone -- back this up. If Kamala Harris, if there was anybody, Maya Harris or Tony West or David Plouffe or anybody else came out and said, Kamala Harris praised Adolf Hitler, how would you be right now?
URBAN: Oh, I would be, that's a bad thing to say, right? I would say it's a terrible thing to say, right? But I guarantee you that Kamala Harris team would say, she didn't say it, just as what's happening now, and the same things happen. So, that's why people in America don't believe half the stuff, Bakari, because it comes out, half the people say it did happen, half the people say it didn't happen. And everyone's left 14 days from election shrugging their shoulders saying, white noise.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, you know --
URBAN: It's unfortunate.
ALLISON: It is unfortunate, yes. So, I didn't watch the news all day today. I've been --
URBAN: Good for you.
ALLISON: And so the first time I actually heard this report was sitting in makeup coming onto the show. And I think that's how most Americans are living their day-to-day. Just, you know, trying to get by dropping their kids off to school, going to work. And I'm kind of sick to my stomach right now that this is even needing to be discussed and it's just not -- I can understand saying he doesn't say -- it didn't say it has happened.
But the reason why it's believable that it did happen is because this is not an isolated incident that just John Kelly is coming out and saying. And I don't know what John Kelly has to gain by coming out with this 13 days before the election. What is the political benefit of John Kelly? I can see if it was like a Democratic strategist or a Democratic senator said, I heard him say, but what is the political benefit?
So, I think that -- I don't know John Kelly either, but I think it is undermining his service. I think it is undermining his integrity as a person to say that there's a political benefit from him doing that. And we all -- if you've ever worked in the White House, you actually know that the chief of staff sometimes in that building speaks in more authority than even the vice president does.
SELLERS: No, he's number two. Chief of staff is number two.
ALLISON: So, the fact that he is saying this. I have no reason to doubt it, but I also have no reason to doubt it because Donald Trump does use language like vermin. He does use language like poisoning the blood. And that is the type of language that Hitler has said.
So, I just am like, when is it enough?
[22:15:00]
Like all I'm sitting here doing is that I hope the American people listen. I hope that they have the common sense, like I want to go home tonight, like I do every night, and I want to really deeply pray for our country, because we are on the verge of a big, big decision.
And I think that this type of report John Kelly having the courage to come out and say it, it should be telling. And I think I'm a little disturbed that the conversation is going in the direction that is --
URBAN: Okay. So, I'll just say this. I'm not questioning John -- the veracity of John Kelly's statements or that he's got something to gain by anything that he said.
ALLISON: So, did he make it all up?
URBAN: No, hold on, listen, there is context to a lot of this stuff as well. Everyone in this room -- don't roll your eyes. There's context. You weren't in the room. I wasn't in the room. You don't know the context of what this discussion was talking about. I don't know the context of what they were talking about, whether it was strong men and who are admirable, who sucked, why Hitler was good, why Hitler was bad. I don't know the context. All I know is what John Kelly said, so I don't know. There is context to all this stuff. No, it does matter. It does matter.
PHILLIP: Here's the thing, David. I mean, what possible context is acceptable? I mean, this is the point that John Kelly was making to Trump himself.
URBAN: I'm not saying -- there is no context to praising Adolf Hitler.
PHILLIP: He said, don't ever praise Adolf Hitler.
URBAN: Exactly.
PHILLIP: So, the character of a person --
URBAN: He didn't praise Adolf Hitler.
PHILLIP: Okay. He said that --
MATTHEWS: He said that Hitler did some good things. He said that he wanted generals like Hitler.
PHILLIP: Okay. This is in Jim Sciutto's book. He said, well, Hitler did some good things. Well, what? And he said, well, Hitler rebuilt the economy. Why? And what does it say about a person that they can look at everything that has been said, even with a third grade education about Adolf Hitler, right, and you could say, well, this man did some good things?
URBAN: There is no political universe that Adolf Hitler did anything good, full stop.
SELLERS: I mean, just real quick. I mean, I know we have to all get paid and go to commercial, but, respectfully, to people watching and to all of those watching, I had this conversation a day with Pete Strom, who's my boss at my law firm. Nothing's going to change. And then there's nothing that Donald Trump can say that will change voters' opinions of him today.
And that's to your point, Ashley. That's where we are as a country. And so people are going to go out. And you know what's crazy? People who cast a ballot for Donald Trump today will have in their mind, maybe he said this about Adolf Hitler, but you know what? I'm going to vote for him anyway.
PHILLIP: To be continued, everyone. We've got much more ahead.
Coming up next, John Kelly also says that Trump referred to slain soldiers as losers several times, not just once. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
Plus, Eminem joins the former president, Barack Obama, on the stage at a Harris rally in Detroit. Hear what the rapper had to say about Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: More now on this candid, captivating, critical interview from John Kelly. A big question that Kelly answered is, why go on the record and go on tape right now with only two weeks until America votes? And here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: I think this, this issue of using the military to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is a very, very bad thing. Even to say it for political purposes to get elected, I think it's a very, very bad thing, let alone actually doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat tonight, Iraq veteran and founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rieckhoff. Paul, good to see you.
That was the moment he basically said, and then doubled down subsequently in another interview. Trump said that he believed that the enemy was within. He named names, United States Congress people, Democrats, who he wanted to put the military on them. How does that land for you? And does it explain why John Kelly would then decide to put all of his hesitancy aside and come forward right now?
PAUL RIECKHOFF, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: Yes, because General John Kelly is a patriot. I don't think anybody at this table would argue with that. He's a man who served his country honorably under tremendous circumstances. He lost his son on the altar of freedom to a landmine in Afghanistan. This is a man who cares very deeply about his country and many of us have been waiting to hear from him because we've heard all these quotes and anonymous sources and you wanted to hear the man's voice. And that's what you heard now. And I think he's sounding this alarm a couple of weeks out because he's concerned about the future of the country.
PHILLIP: Is it enough for you?
RIECKHOFF: I'm already there. I don't need it to be moved, right? But I do think it's a culminating storm of people who were sounding the alarm just a couple weeks out because they see how high the stakes are.
And it's a chorus now, right? It's General Mark Milley, who is his chairman of the Joint Chiefs. It's his former vice president. It's the former, secretary of defense. Dick Cheney. It's his former secretary of defense, Mark Esper, it's basically the entire military and defense community that served under him, that is now opposing him, and it's because it's ultimately, in my view, about the commander-in-chief test.
And that's what's going to move, especially independent voters, in this next couple of weeks. They're going to go to the booth. It's only going to be them and that switch. And they're going to have to decide if they're comfortable with this person being the commander-in-chief and leading our men and women in uniform, which might include their sons and daughters, which is why the integrity piece and The Atlantic piece and all this other stuff is important too, because you're voting for the man's character and integrity or their lack of.
PHILLIP: I think you can't ignore the fact that so many of these people, to Paul's point, are in the national security space. Those are the people who are the most concerned about this. And some of these stories we've heard before, but here is John Kelly talking more about this episode, or these episodes, he says, there were multiple of them, in which Trump disparaged people who were wounded in action, who were captured in their service. [22:25:10]
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He basically said to you that those who died for America on the battlefield were losers and suckers, and he said it more than once?
KELLY: Yes. But he would say it was always, that something else would get him going off, at times, again, McCain.
But he never could wrap his arms around why people would serve the country in uniform. What was in it for them? That was the general theme.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: What was in it for them?
RIECKHOFF: It's his voice. I mean, he, he wants there to be no doubt that, that he believes that he saw this happen. He heard this happen. You know, there's been a lot of speculation saying maybe he didn't say that. Maybe he doesn't really believe it. Now he's going on the record. You're hearing his voice. He wants everybody in the world to hear his voice.
The only person you haven't heard from is General Mattis. He's kind of the last holdout that people want to hear from. Maybe we'll hear from him and others in these final days, but that would be just about the only voice that served under him that hasn't spoken out in opposition of him in the last couple of months or years.
JENNINGS: May I ask a question?
PHILLIP: Sure.
JENNINGS: What do you think of the way Biden and Harris have treated the families of the Abbey Gate soldiers?
RIECKHOFF: I'm not going to go into a different topic. No. This is your show and you want to ask me questions, we can line them up, but that's a total distraction.
JENNINNGS: No, my question is -- we're criticizing --
RIECKHOFF: No, we're not going to take the bait on that. I've been very vocal about Abbey Gate and other issues. We're talking about one singular issue.
PHILLIP: I hear what you're saying about, you know, the Abbey Gate and the concerns that they've raised, but I don't understand why, even if you take that as fact, you can't just address what's on the table here, which is about Donald Trump, his actions, his words his character. I mean, a year ago -- I mean, I kind of wonder a year and a half ago, if you had heard -- I mean, you probably heard about some of these things, I'm not sure that you would've defended Trump on this. So, why do you defend him now?
JENNINGS: The reason I'm bringing it up is because -- and I revere the military. I'm not in the military. I didn't serve, I revere people who do. And there are a varying amount of opinions on Trump and the current administration from people up and down the military. As David said earlier, there are lots of military officers that support Trump.
RIECKHOFF: Not among all the senior officials.
JENNINGS: And there are lots of rank and file who support Trump and I'm sure there's some that support the other party. And so I'm hearing from lots of different voices. And tonight, we're fully focused on the military voices who are critical of Trump, but we seem to be forgetting the treatment of the military by Biden-Harris and specifically that's been in the news during this campaign, these soldiers' families from Afghanistan.
Look, I'm not in the community and I respect everybody's voice, but I just think it's a one-sided --
RIECKHOFF: There should be criticism.
PHILLIP: No one has ever accused Biden and Harris of disparaging the families of people who lost their lives in service.
JENNINGS: Well, they have accused them of not giving them the time of day. Harris has never spoken to them and they say they have been neglected by this White House. I think that's --
(CROSSTALKS)
RIECKHOFF: I've been extremely critical of the Biden handling of Abbey Gate, as have many other people. And I think the key here is being objective. I think that Abbey Gate was a low point of the Biden presidency. He lost me and a lot of people on that day, but that doesn't mean that you can't still evaluate someone else on whether or not they're qualified to be commander-in-chief. And that's ultimately what we're talking about here.
JENNINGS: Well, I'm just saying --
RIECKHOFF: A couple weeks out, we're talking about whether or not mostly independents in key swing states, many of which are veterans, are going to determine this election. They're going to decide and they're going to judge on character. They're going to judge on the commander-in-chief test, and they're going to judge on how they ultimately feel about safety and security. And this may impact that decision. That's why. Kelly's speaking out now. He wants you to know how he stands.
And there may be others who will speak out in the next couple of days. We're not past another October surprise, but he wants everybody to hear it. And he wants to be one of the last things you hear before you go to the polls.
URBAN: So, I'll just say this. Having spent some time with the president, I was the chairman of the American Battle Monuments Commission. I was there with General Kelly and General Dunford at Aisne-Marne Cemetery. The story that The Atlantic wrote, not the story today, but the previous story about suckers and losers is complete fiction. Zach Fuentes and Dan Walsh and others who canceled the trip before Donald Trump, it starts out, Donald Trump canceled the trip to the cemetery.
It was pouring rain. There was no way to get there, a two-hour drive in a car. I went with General Kelly. I went with General Dunford. I went with others to the cemetery as the chairman. I went to the top of the hill. November 10th is the Marine Corps birthday. That is sacred ground. Aisne-Marne Cemetery is sacred ground -- excuse me. It's Belleau Woods Cemetery, not Aisne-Marne. I wanted to go to Aisne-Marne Cemetery.
Belleau Woods Cemetery is the Marine Corps. There's a monument at the top. I went to the top there with some other staffers. We drank a shot in honor of General Kelly's son.
[22:30:00]
There was no talk about how terrible Donald Trump was at that time.
PHILLIP: Yes, but do you think --
URBAN: I'm not doubting, listen. I'm not doubting, listen. I'm not doubting General -- hold on. Listen, I'm not talking about --
PHILLIP: But just as a question here. I know that this is your view on this.
URBAN: I've been with him a lot, I've been with Trump a lot.
PHILLIP: You've talked about it a lot but do you acknowledge that John Kelly who was the chief of staff, he was with Trump at every moment -- do you acknowledge that you may not have been there?
URBAN: I may -- or in my experience --
PHILLIP: That moment or any of the other moments that --
URBAN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: - John Kelly says where this happened.
URBAN: I do not -- I do not doubt General Kelly's word in one sec. There's context of things and I'm just telling you, in the many times that I've been with the President in military settings, every Army Navy game. I went with the President. I greeted wounded warriors and their families, gold star families with the President. I introduced them to the President in the stadium, in the White House, in other places, out of earshot of people. I saw first-hand how he interacted with these people -- badly disfigured soldiers, their families, dead people, dead kids, with terrible situations. So, my first-hand experience is something different. I'm not dismissing General Kelly's experience. I'm just speaking of mine.
PHILLIP: One second. Just for one second.
RIECKHOFF: We also have our own personal experience of witnessing what he says --
ALLISON: That's right.
RIECKHOFF:-- year after year.
ALLISON: That's right.
RIECKHOFF: You were there, I respect your opinion, and you saw that. But I also saw what he said about John McCain. And I saw what he continues to say consistently about not just military people, but all kinds of people.
I did an interview earlier today. I wouldn't want him around my kids, because not only are our enemies watching, and not only are our troops watching, our children are watching. And this is a person who needs to represent the office of honor and integrity. And that's something we've all seen for years and years. And we will all make our judgment when we go to the voting.
SELLERS: Sometimes you come on TV and you kind of prepare for what you are supposed to say or should say. And I don't know if there's been a time where I felt more ill-equipped to participate in the discussion.
Because you have people at the table who, unlike Scott, myself, and Ashley, who have -- given close to what Abraham Lincoln called "The Last Full Measure Devotion". And what I would ask viewers and everyone else is to take the totality of the circumstances.
At this point in time, I'm not like a CNN political commentator. I'm a voter who just needs to hear what people are saying who matter. And that means I'm listening to people who are close to Donald Trump.
And look, I love David Urban. I know him well. I mean, I trust David with my family. I don't know if I do the same with Donald Trump and that's my personal opinion. That's the way I vote. I just met him a minute ago and he has on a much better-looking suit than I do right now at this particular point in time.
RIECKHOFF: You got some sharp shoes on. But what I'm saying is that I think that we have to take the totality of circumstances because sometimes those of us who want to weigh in, and I want to be here and be like, you know, Kamala Harris made a tough decision in Afghanistan and this and that. But I don't know what that feels like for you two.
PHILLIP: I guess I wonder -- here's the thing that I wonder. I mean, I hear what you're saying about you didn't have those experiences. But someone else did.
URBAN: And I'm not dismissing them, I'm not downplaying them?
PHILLIP: So, someone else did. So, you're hearing that someone else actually did, multiple other people, actually. Again, I come back to this. If you heard that about somebody, and you personally didn't -- it's like, you know, you didn't personally witness the person that you've known for your whole life doing something really wrong, but someone else did. Someone was victimized by it. Do you discount that as a he said, she said?
URBAN: No, look, I think as, you know, as McCarty said, as Tali has sort of said, everybody has to weigh and make their decision. That's the great thing about a democracy, right? You hear all these things and everybody's going to go in on November 5th and they're going to make a decision. And what I think, you know, Joe Biden once said, you know, this was his line, now don't compare me against the Almighty, compare me against the alternative. And I think that's what's happening.
RIECKHOFF: That's all we want.
RIECKHOFF: And I think, no.
ALLISON: And I think I'm comparing anyone to ever say that Hillary did something good, then the alternative is better. And I think that's what we're, I think, and I guess I just keep asking the question, what is ever going to be disqualifying for Donald Trump?
UNKNOWN: Nothing.
ALLISON: So, if you actually knew he said it, I'm not saying, I don't know, none of us will ever know, right? But like --
RIECKHOFF: But by focusing only on the one thing he said --
ALLISON: Look, I could guess.
RIECKHOFF: -- we are being distracted.
ALLISON: It's not an isolated event.
RIECKHOFF: How far do you have to go?
ALLISON: That's right.
URBAN: So, who's Dick Cheney?
RIECKHOFF: How far do you have to go to lose your own Secretary of Defense? How far do you have to go to lose your own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs? That is something we've never seen before. And that is something, regardless of what he said in one given circumstance, should resonate with people especially his family.
URBAN: What would you say -- this point -- how bad must it be then for 50 percent of Americans to say, yes, I'm going to vote for him over Kamala Harris because we think the alternative is no worse.
RIECKHOFF: Right now, let's say 46 need some change. This is a choice for most Americans, especially most independents. They don't like either one of them and that is the case for Kamala Harris to make to say, you may not like me, but he's a lot worse.
[22:35:00]
And he's trying to make the same case. And we're going to see how it shakes out.
PHILLIP: We cannot lose sight, I mean, to what you just said, of the unprecedented nature of this whole conversation.
ALLISON: Yes. Never had a President of the United States talked about in this way. Never had someone seeking that office talked about in this way. And that's always going to be in the history books.
URBAN: Well, I'm glad we did it here, civilly.
PHILLIP: Well, Paul Rieckhoff, we appreciate you. Thank you as always for joining us. Everyone else, stick with us. Coming up next. He is the real Slim Shady and he is on stage with former President Obama. So, does that star power mean anything when it comes to the ballot box? Does anything mean anything? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:01]
PHILLIP: One shot, one opportunity to seize everything to save democracy? Well tonight, Marshall Mathers, aka Slim Shady, aka Eminem, told his home city of Detroit that he is voting for her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMINEM, RAPPER: I also think that people shouldn't be afraid to express their opinions. And I don't think anyone once in America were people that worried about retribution or what people would do if you make your opinion known. I think Vice President Harris supports a future for this country where these freedoms and many others will be protected and upheld.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Sarah Matthews is back with us. That must have struck a nerve because Donald Trump has already responded calling Eminem a so-called star.
MATTHEWS: You know, my generation would argue differently.
PHILLIP: People of a certain age might disagree, but there you go.
MATTHEWS: No, I would argue differently. I think it's awesome that he's out on the campaign trail. He's not someone who's necessarily politically active. But I think that in a city like Detroit, his opinion will definitely penetrate through and reach a new audience of people who might not be politically engaged and paying attention.
And I think his message that he had too was something really important where he's saying that this is what a second Trump term is going to be about, retribution. Because Donald Trump has said it himself. I mean, look at the number of Truth Social posts and times and rallies where he says, I am your retribution.
Because that is what a second Trump term is all going to be about. It's not going to be about making America great again. It's not going to be about solving the problems for the American people. It's going to be about Donald Trump gaining as much power as possible so that way he can enact the retribution that he seeks on those he deems his political enemies or as he would call them the enemy from within.
SELLERS: So, look, look.
URBAN: I'm not sure misogynistic rapper Eminem is like the best guy to take this advice from --
MATTHEWS: In Detroit, I would argue that.
SELLERS: Well, slow down, slow down there on the characteristics by which we describe people because misogynistic is something --
URBAN: Oh, sure. Look at -- Eminem--
SELLERS: Can I just quote -- can I just quote one of the great American poets, his name is Shawn Carter AKA Jay-Z, and he said the only people moving units is Em, Pimp Juice and us. So, what Jay-Z was saying to you David Urban --
URBAN: I don't understand.
SELLERS: Only people moving units was selling records at that time was Eminem, Nelly, Pimp Juice -- which was Jay-Z at the time. At that particular moment in time, he was the biggest rap star in the entire world.
URBAN: Jay-Z?
SELLERS: No, Eminem.
URBAN: Okay.
SELLERS: And then he discovered a young man named 50 Cent. And so, you know, this is -- this is the -- there's a history of rap right here.
SELLERS: Thank you. I'm trying to explain to you where we are but let me also just give you something to bring you home. Right now, if Kamala Harris gets 51 percent turnout in Detroit, you lose Michigan. What happens every time a Democrat gets 51percent turnout? You know who got it? Joe Biden. That was 130,000.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Bacardi. Let me get -- let me ask you this.
SELLERS: You added B to the Bakari? PHILLIP: Bakari.
SELLERS: Jesus.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Bacardi.
SELLERS: I'm leaving.
JENNINGS: You are what you need.
PHILLIP: The question is about Michigan -- is about the state of Michigan. They're worried about Michigan.
UNKNOWN: Clearly.
PHILLIP: Let me just show "Washington Post"- Schar School poll, shows Harris at 49 to 47. This is a little bit of a different poll because it says definitely or probably voting for. So, not a typical, but it's tight.
SELLERS: Let me finish what I was saying earlier. It's tighter than we would like. Let me finish what I was saying earlier. When Democrats get above 50 percent, 51 percent in terms of turnout, in Detroit, -- in the city of Detroit, they win. What happened with Hillary Clinton is she got 49 percent as some change and she lost by 10,000 votes. Joe Biden got 51 percent, he won by 100 and some thousand votes. So, that happens.
And one of the things that I love about the Republican operation right now is they are dumping in the lizardsthicket.com poll. They are dumping in the AutoZone poll, the invictus.com poll. Every poll that has Donald Trump up by five, but the polls that you're talking about--
PHILLIP: We'll forget about polls for a second, because the other part of this is about what's -- the other part that's going on in Michigan is her erosion with Americans and Muslims.
URBAN: Of course, it's hemorrhaging.
PHILLIP: That's part of the problem.
URBAN: And listen, I'll remind you, like, past this prologue, again, I told the story before. The night before the election in the city of Philadelphia, I was there watching, observing--
ALLISON: What year?
URBAN: -- Beyonce --2016. Beyonce, Jay-Z, Bruce Springsteen, John Bon Jovi, Barack and Michelle Obama, Bill and Hillary Clinton, everyone was on the stage, 35,000 people. Guess what happened? Donald Trump won. So, all that didn't matter. And that's Beyonce, okay? That's Beyonce. That's not Eminem. That's Beyonce. It didn't move the numbers.
JENNINGS: I think this Eminem thing, I got to tell you, this campaign is -- so, everything that's said about Donald Trump and his treatment of women and the gender gap in this campaign, this rapper, who I fully admit sold a lot of records. If you've read some of the things he has said about the promotion of domestic violence.
SELLERS: No, no, no. He said if you're famous you can grab them by the --
JENNINGS: Bakari, I listened to your entire filibuster. If you could just give me 13 seconds.
SELLERS: I give you 12 because he said grab them by the --
JENNINGS: And so -- and so, when you think about the things he has said in order to sell those records and you also consider some of the questions that are swirling around Harris' own husband in this regard.
SELLERS: Oh my God.
JENNINGS: I find --
SELLERS: Okay, you don't even get 12 seconds.
JENNINGS: I find -
SELLERS: I'm not going to let you go into the far end of B.S.
JENNINGS: I'm just telling you --
PHILLIP: Scott, you can't --hey, hey.
SELLERS: I can't represent you in the defamation case.
PHILLIP: We're going to -- we're going to stop here for a second.
ALLISON: I just want to talk strategy.
SELLERS: Yes, I thought we were on a polling strategy.
PHILLLIP: I just have to say, I'll take those concerns seriously if you also express concerns about the allegations. He's been found liable for rape.
URBAN: Sexual assault.
SELLERS: That's the same thing.
PHILLIP: Okay, so that's also true. So, we're not going to litigate those other things, but you can't - you can't just pick and choose which allies.
ALLISON: And I know we have to go. I'm just going to say, okay.
URBAN: All I'm saying is, celebrities don't move the needle much. That's all I'm saying.
SELLERS: Where are we on the panel right now? I'm just trying to figure out. PHILLIP: We're going to break. That's where we are.
ALLISON: You guys talk too much and don't listen to women.
PHILLIP: That might be true, too. Everyone, stick around.
UNKNOWN: That's Bacardi.
PHILLIP: We love you, Bacardi and Urban, but we got to go to the break. Everyone, coming up next. What does it cost if you lie for loyalty? Well, for Rudy Giuliani, the price includes a signed Joe DiMaggio jersey and his New York City penthouse. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PJHILLIP: Lifestyles of the no longer rich and infamous Rudy Giuliani is paying the price for his election lies and trust me, it's very steep. A judge wants the former New York City mayor to hand over prized possessions to the two election workers that he defamed. The list is long enough to make anyone on MTV Cribs pretty envious.
First of all, it's the crib itself, that Manhattan penthouse that Giuliani has, the bling, the watches, the jewelry, sports memorabilia, including an autographed Joe DiMaggio jersey, a 1980s Mercedes that was once owned by the actress Lauren Bacall.
Why he has that, I have no idea. His TV, his furniture, cold hard cash. It's unclear, though, if Giuliani will end up keeping his Palm Beach condo. And, of course, his New York Yankees championship rings. Plural. It's got to go.
ALLISON: I just want to say I feel like the millennial pop culture era has gone a lot of shots tonight between Eminem and MTV crib. But look, I think this is important because Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss were public servants and we've talked about the importance of how local people run elections.
And when you are targeted and you have a target literally put on your back because of lies about the election and I'm not doing their job properly, and now they actually got a guilty verdict and he tried to, you know, not get his assets turned over, but now they're actually going to get the money they deserve. Their life has forever been disrupted, and it's the least that they can get as public servants that are doing the most important thing to protect our democracy.
PHILLIP: And it's a reminder of the high price that people pay for being in Trump's orbit.
JENNINGS: I think Ashley is spot on. I think that when you are a person of power and influence and you have a large microphone in our culture, you can really hurt people. And there's a big responsibility that comes with that. And he learned a lesson here. He should not have done what he did. And so, you know, when you do those kinds of things in our system, people can hold you accountable. There's a process. He was held accountable and that's what we're saying today. PHILLIP: Do you think that applies to Trump, too, when he disparages
people?
JENNINGS: I think it applies to every single American. I think it applies to all of us.
PHILLIP: Ruined all their lives?
PHILLIP: I think it applies to all of us.
ALLISON: Yeah, it should. Nobody should be above the law and particularly public servant. I mean, when you're the target is a public servant.
PHILLIP: Yes.
ALLISON: And I think it's not just about him. It's about the lesson that it is teaching other people as we go into this election cycle, not to do the same nefarious, misleading things about.
MATTHEWS: I was going to tell --
SELLERS: I wish-- I was hopeful that.
MATTHEWS: I would love to add that I believe that Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman are true American heroes. Look, these women had their lives destroyed at the hands of Donald Trump and his allies like Rudy Giuliani. They spread these conspiracy theories about these women who were in the middle of a pandemic, running a free and fair election, trying to do their public service for their country. And this is how Donald Trump and his allies repaid them.
And so, they deserve every single penny of this money. And it should be a warning to those who defend Donald Trump and help spread conspiracy theories. Because look, we all know that the 2020 election was not stolen. There's zero evidence of it. And someone like Rudy Giuliani, who I once held in such high regard, I mean, what a fall from grace this is. And it's really quite sad to see.
PHILLIP: Yes, it's taken four years for these women to get justice. That's -- that's too long, frankly. Everyone, thank you very much for joining me. Coming up next, we showed you former President Obama with Eminem. Now, we're going to show you Obama rapping. You'll want to stick around for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:19]
PHILLIP: If you were hoping for a not-so-secret show in Detroit, you kind of got one, and not from who you might expect. Eminem, he introduced Obama at Kamala Harris' rally in Michigan but it was the former president who actually was the one dropping the bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (D): But I was feeling some kind of way following Eminem and I notice my palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy. Bombing on my sweater already, mom's spaghetti. I'm nervous but on the surface I look calm and ready to drop bombs but I keep bomb forgetting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Who doesn't remember all those lines from that classic Eminem song? We'll weigh in next time on whether that was better or worse than Vivek Ramaswamy's rendition. That's for another day. Thank you for watching "NewsNight State of the Race". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
