Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Names Pam Bondi as New A.G. Pick After Gaetz Withdraws; More Trump Picks Face Concerns Over Past Allegations; New Details in Sex Assault Claim Threaten Trump's Defense Pick. CNN Unearths RFK Jr. Video Comparing Trump To Hitler; Court Tosses Jussie Smollett's Conviction For Falsifying A Hate Crime. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 21, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:08]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, meet the new nominee. The president-elect picks Pam Bondi to serve as the next attorney general.
Plus, dropout, Matt Gaetz exits stage right. But will that empower Republicans to give the hook to other Trump picks accused of sexual misconduct?
Also, a CNN deep dive turns up another Trump favorite comparing him to Hitler --
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., FORMER INDEPENDENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We may not have that many outright Nazis in America.
PHILLIP: -- and the MAGA faithful to Nazis.
KENNEDY: Once those fleshy dominoes are tumbling into the Trump camp, the game is up
PHILLIP: And culture war convictions. A court tosses Jussie Smollett's charges for fabricating a hate crime, reigniting a conversation about race and justice.
Live at the table, Maria Cardona, Van Lathan, Katie Frost, Mike Broomhead and Kara Swisher.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, the second choice. Just 24 hours ago, Republicans were saying, let the process play out for Matt Gaetz. Now, the process is over and Gaetz is gone. The process is starting anew now for Pam Bondi. The former Florida attorney general is Donald Trump's new pick to run the Justice Department.
Tonight, already, consider the wagons circled. Play word association on Capitol Hill, and here are the responses that you're going to get, great choice, great job, quickly confirming her.
Back in the studio here with our panel she is, in a way, a kind of classic, typical Republican pick, a Trump pick. There are some controversies, but in many ways, I'm not sure that Pam Bondi is very different from what you would find from any of the candidates that Trump could potentially pick here.
KATIE FROST, FORMER AIDE, TED CRUZ PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN 2016: No, not at all. I mean, she's a former Attorney General of a large state. Also, she was attorney general of Florida back when it was much more of a swing state. She has experience in the courtroom. She's a prosecutor. And as we're seeing from the responses on Capitol Hill, I think it's going to be a good confirmation.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Also, she's not Matt Gaetz. I think that's probably her greatest asset she's got right at this moment. And they did it quick. And she's someone who's certainly acceptable, right? Looks different, has experience, has run, as you said, a big state. She certainly has certain issues that people are going to bring up, including some of her cases and things she's done.
And so, again, she's not Matt Gaetz. I think that's probably the best thing.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I agree with that. But what's interesting is that in the realm of Trump world, she is kind of a normal pick. She is just an election denier, right? I mean, in a real normal world, that would be a big deal. But given that she's now being compared to Matt Gaetz, then I think you can see like her record and what Republicans are saying about her, it probably will be in the --
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, let me just play a little bit of like when you talk about election denier. Here's some of the things that she was saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN ADVISER: We are still on the ground in Pennsylvania. I'm here right now and we are not going anywhere until they declare that we won Pennsylvania.
We know that ballots have been dumped. There were ballots that were found early on. We've heard that people were receiving ballots that were dead. You know, the thing that's happening all over the country.
It is about the integrity of this election and every vote, as Mayor Giuliani said, in every state must be counted fairly.
We need to fix this. We need to remedy this now, because we've won Pennsylvania and we want every vote to be counted in a fair way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Not to make everything seem mundane, but I mean, that's like a prerequisite to be in Trump world.
VAN LATHAN, PODCAST CO-HOST, HIGHER LEARNING: No. I think we're all saying the same thing. This is not Trumpy enough, okay? It's definitely not Trumpy enough. I was looking for, I don't know, maybe Dean Cain, Kid Rock, somebody who would really get the blood flowing or something like this. Look at this. Even that, that was garden variety election denial. Yes, that's not what I want to hear. I want to hear ballots being burned. I want to hear all kinds of stuff that really gets people going.
SWISHER: In that case, she's not Rudy Giuliani.
[22:05:00]
LATHAN: There you go.
MIKE BROOMHEAD, KTAR PHOENIX RADIO HOST, THE MIKE BROOMHEAD SHOW: Aren't the Democrats doing that in Pennsylvania right now.
FROST: Well, I was about to say, she sounds like Bob Casey.
BROOMHEAD: Yes, she sounds like Bob Casey.
(CROSSTALKS)
CARDONA: Not a word that Donald Trump understands.
LATHAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: He did concede. I mean, and also, I mean, I think there's like a substantive difference between Democrats saying for too long ballots need to be counted and Republicans saying falsely that ballots were being dumped, which just didn't happen, that was completely invented.
LATHAN: Machines being hacked, all that kind of stuff, that's the kind of sci-fi stuff that I expect from the other side right here. Like now, I'm -- just let me finish, okay? Just what I want, the bar has now been raised. Trump has a mandate for crazy, and I want to see it ratcheted up to 12 every single time.
FROST: This is just normal crazy.
BROOMHEAD: How many Democrats didn't show up to the inauguration in January 2017 because Donald Trump wasn't a legitimate president? How many Democrats didn't show up?
LATHAN: Do you think that's the same as launching --
BROOMHEAD: No, I'm saying it's election denial. You know what, 200 people were arrested during that inauguration time. 200 people rioted, burned cars, six cops were injured. All 200 people had those charges dropped, right? So, breaking the law is breaking the law.
CARDONA: Are you talking about the insurrectionists?
BROOMHEAD: No, I'm talking about -- I'm saying both sides are guilty of this.
CARDONA: Oh, come on.
LATHAN: So if you both sides this, what you essentially have to say is that the Democrats led a four-year long cultural movement to delegitimize American elections and to make everyone question every single ballot that they've cast and --
BROOMHEAD: No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
CARDONA: And then to attack the Capitol.
LATHAN: And then to attack the Capitol.
BROOMHEAD: Or burn cars in Washington D.C. and attack other buildings.
CARDONA: Mike, you cannot both sides this. It is not the same thing.
BROOMHEAD: I'm not both sides anything.
CARDONA: You are.
BROOMHEAD: I am saying to you --
CARDONA: You're trying to compare one thing with another.
BROOMHEAD: You can call Donald Trump crazy.
CARDONA: It's not.
BROOMHEAD: He gained with Hispanic voters, he gained with black male voters, he won the popular vote.
CARDONA: No one's talking about that.
BROOMHEAD: What I'm saying is --
CARDONA: No one is talking about this current election.
BROOMHEAD: But you're saying that the electorate is falling for something that's crazy. And I just think that's dangerous to say that.
CARDONA: No. What we're saying is that in Trump's world, that a choice like Pam Bondi compared to what he had before, Matt Gaetz, right? In Trump world, Matt Gaetz is normal. And so what I think Van is saying is that you kind of (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: I think they're kind of paying Pam Bondi a bit of a compliment that she is actually --
(CROSSTALKS)
BROOMHEAD: I like the pick, Pam Bondi, but the idea that America voted for this psycho, crazy man, I just think it's --
(CROSSTALKS)
LATHAN: Let me tell you what's happening with you right now.
PHILLIP: I mean, I know that there's somebody who will say that, but nobody said that --
LATHAN: Mike, you're operating on the old operating system. Bro, you're up. You ain't got to do this no more. You have all been doing it for the last four years. You're on an old operating system.
BROOMHEAD: No, I'm not.
LATHAN: Yes, you are.
CARDONA: You are. You're on the defensive.
LATHAN: You should be --
BROOMHEAD: No, not at all. We won the Senate. They maintained the control of the House.
CARDONA: Why are you coming at us then?
BROOMHEAD: Because you're calling the man crazy and his picks are crazy. And so --
FROST: Let's go back to Pam Bondi for a second. It's like kind of the topic at hand here. But you look at these list of selections and, I mean, you look at some of these names, I wouldn't know if it was Donald Trump or Nikki Haley making them. Like a lot of these are just senators from large states, former attorney generals, current members of Congress, former members of Congress. Like this is -- a lot of this is very standard. And then it gets mixed up a little bit.
PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean, I think that's a good segue because, look, there are two categories of these picks, right? You've got people who are very uncontroversial, like a Marco Rubio. And then you do have some controversial picks. Man down. I mean, Matt Gaetz is the first one. But there is another big problem. Pete Hegseth is a problem, okay? The police report came out detailing these allegations against him that he sexually assaulted a woman. And the facts of the police report are very serious.
CARDONA: Very concerning.
PHILLIP: I just want to play what he said when he was or we'll save it for later. But I'm just saying there are a lot of issues here for some of these other Trump nominees and they're going to have issues and they're realizing that, so they're pivoting in Trump world.
SWISHER: They're pivoting in some cases. And I think this new report today is disturbing, because even the stuff he's agreed to that happened is disturbing. You know, what happened at the end he's disputing. But the first part, they didn't dispute of him being in the bar and bothering other women and now they're testifying he was bothering them.
PHILLIP: So, at what point do they -- at what point does the Trump administration that is coming in start saying -- let's not fight about this? I mean, cause that's essentially what Matt Gaetz said today, which is like let's just not fight about this stuff and fight about other stuff instead. I mean, that seems to be a strategy that they probably should --
BROOMHEAD: Yes. And I think that's why the process plays out the way it does. You're right. There's a confirmation process. There's a vetting process. And if the American people, if the Senate will not confirm, that the American people push back hard enough, Matt Gaetz is proof that they'll step down or they won't get confirmation.
[22:10:01]
That's what the process is about. And so I agree with you. In that part, I absolutely agree with you.
LATHAN: What do the nominations of Hegseth or Matt Gaetz say to you in the first place? I mean, what do they say to you in the first place?
BROOMHEAD: They don't say anything to me.
LATHAN: Do you think that Pete Hegseth is qualified to be secretary of defense?
BROOMHEAD: I don't know. I don't know if he is or isn't. And I don't know if he's qualified. Are you talking about the merits of the job or these accusations?
LATHAN: You know what's funny about that? It's funny that for the last four years we've had conversations around DEI that seem to litigate down to the nth degree what everyone is qualified to do, are you qualified to fly a plane, are you qualified to be president of a university, but when we're talking about a job that's as consequential as being the secretary of defense, now we're not sure what makes up the qualifications --
BROOMHEAD: Because I don't know Pete Hegseth. I mean, what did Pete Buttigieg know about transportation? What did Jennifer Granholm know about energy before they took the jobs?
PHILLIP: I mean, I do think that there are cabinet positions and there are cabinet positions, okay? There are some that are just more important than others. And attorney general is a huge one.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Consequential ones. SWISHER: Well, one of the things, it's not us saying it. It's Karl Rove saying it. It's the New York Post saying it. Like Karl Rove's piece in The Wall Street Journal was this, called it a clown show. So, he says it's a half clown show and a half competent show, good choices. And so you can say someone's --
PHILLIP: I almost feel like Pam Bondi is like somewhere in between. I mean, she's not grossly unqualified but not, you know, clerking. You know, she's not arguing before the Supreme Court. I mean, there's a range here of attorney general candidates and she's somewhere in between.
CARDONA: And I think that shows you just how much Trump himself, because of who he is and what he represents has moved the needle or lowered the bar, I guess is the right name for that. Because I think in another administration, even past Republican administrations, I don't think Pam Bondi would have raised -- would have gone to the level of somebody that would be qualified to be attorney general. But in this world, as compared to Matt Gaetz and others, she is seen as somebody who's qualified because she doesn't have -- you know, she's not a sex trafficker of minors. She doesn't have allegations of, you know --
PHILLIP: Allegedly.
CARDONA: Allegedly.
PHILLIP: Okay, to be clear. Everyone hang on, we're going to actually continue this conversation.
The damning revelations against all of these Trump cabinet picks do beg the question. I mean, are we talking about morals anymore with the Republican Party?
Plus, a longtime Democrat praised calling Trump supporters, quote, outright Nazis and belligerent idiots, except that that person could be in the MAGA cabinet now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY: Oh, we have plenty of cowards and bootlickers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, judged not by the content of their character but by who's behind them. Matt Gaetz is stepping out of the arena after Donald Trump convinced him he didn't have the votes to survive confirmation. But don't mistake the Gaetz affair as the marquee moment of moral conviction for Republicans. They seem plenty prepared to overlook moral failings of many of these Trump nominees. Just take a look at headline after headline. Trump defies MeToo movement, Hegseth paid accuser but denies sexual assault, McMahon sued for allegedly enabling sexual abuse of children, RFK Jr. sidestepping sexual assault allegations, Elon Musk accused of illegal firings, sexual harassment.
It's amazing. I mean, it really is amazing. I actually think the most surprising thing is how do they find so many people with the same problem and then put them up for a cabinet position.
SWISHER: Well, it's a bigger problem than people realize. I think people don't talk about it. You know, it reminds me of many years ago, do you remember the moral majority is neither? Do you remember those signs that they would make when the moral majority was lecturing everyone on how to behave? This group doesn't really do that but they certainly overlook those kind of things that, of course, got a lot of Democrats in trouble many years ago.
PHILLIP: So, is it over, Mike? I mean is this idea that the Republican Party perhaps is the party of sort of, you know, moral rightness?
BROOMHEAD: No. i don't know that it's ever been that way. I mean, I think that's maybe the way they wanted to portray themselves, but I don't think that either side has the corner on morality or immorality. I think that human beings are human beings. And I think when you're going through a process like this, they should do what they're doing. They're going to turn over every stone. They're going to look at everything you've ever done. And then they're going to decide whether or not they're worthy of the position. If this had been a Harris cabinet, the same thing would have happened. And I don't know, it would have been the same allegations. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they would have turned over every stone and dug everything up.
CARDONA: And maybe it's a -- because everything happened so quickly, this is why you're supposed to have a very tight vetting process. Maybe they didn't have that. But what I don't understand is, is there no one else in the Republican Party that you guys have that you can point to with the kind of qualifications that are needed to be a cabinet secretary that does not have these kinds of horrific, gross sexual allegations in their past?
SWISHER: Liz Cheney.
CARDONA: I mean, that's my question. Well, yes, exactly.
PHILLIP: A lot of those people have been kind of run out of the Republican Party.
CARDONA: I mean, what does that say about the party?
BROOMHEAD: But that's such an unfair categorization of the Republican Party.
[22:20:00]
How many people voted in this election for Donald Trump and you think that all those people are okay with sexual assault? Bill Clinton was on the --
CARDONA: They overlooked it? BROOMHEAD: Bill Clinton was on the campaign trail for Vice President Harris in my home state. You want to talk about immorality and things that have been done wrong, I'm just saying that if you want to talk about overlooking or if you want to point fingers, I don't think either side should be virtue signaling about either side. I don't --
PHILLIP: I think that's actually a very fair point and important point. Because, I mean, the -- look, I mean, I think the question that is being raised when it comes to Republicans, is that Republicans often talk about family values. They talk about Christianity. They talk about those -- they do talk about those things.
LATHAN: Well, they used to. And so this --
BROOMHEAD: No, they still do.
LATHAN: But they kind of don't. And so this is my thing, from a Bible Belt boy myself from down in Louisiana. All of this to me is a failing of the evangelical movement as well. There's been a political capture with the evangelicals. Well, they'll accept anyone now, anyone who advances a political agenda that they're into. There used to be at least a guy that was a big deal in Baton Rouge, Jimmy Swaggart, he had some issues. I don't know if you had heard about it. They ended Jimmy, right?
There used to be that you just couldn't do certain things and still stand in morality and under the guise of God. That's gone. It doesn't matter. If you're going to give them what they want on abortion, if you're going to give them what they want on LGBTQ-plus discrimination, they don't care who you are or who you are or how you comport yourself.
PHILLIP: And that started with Donald Trump.
LATHAN: That started with Donald Trump.
FROST: It's an interesting point there, because I'm a Bible Belt girl, too. I'm from Georgia. I once had a pastor ask me, do you believe in the doctrine of total depravity of man? I went, well, yes, I work in politics. Of course, I believe that, like humans do, yes. But you know, there is -- it started in the church. It's an interesting point. There's been a pattern in the church that people overlook things. We're not holding people accountable the way we used to. I mean, there used to be back in the day the idea that if you violated certain things, you wouldn't be a member of that church anymore. You know, you were -- there was something wrong.
PHILLIP: You couldn't be in church leadership.
FROST: You couldn't be in church leadership, exactly. So, it's been there. It is spilling into the broader culture. I mean, we remember the Clinton hearings. That was, of course, such a big deal with his impeachment. So, it's kind of a larger cultural question.
But I will say going back to do Republicans talk about these issues? Yes. But here's what I will say. The policies Republicans enact are better on those issues than the policies that the Democrats would be looking at enacting. So --
CARDONA: What do you mean by that?
FROST: So, if you're a Republican voter and you care about the life issue, You're going to be want to vote for Republicans regardless of their personal failings.
CARDONA: That's exactly what Van is saying. That's exactly what Van is saying.
PHILLIP: Katie, let me just drill down on that for a second, because I do wonder for you, personally, do you think that even in that dynamic of, okay who's better on the policy, does character still matter, right, I mean, to you?
FROST: To me, character absolutely matters. The question is, what is the character of our country going to look like? What kind of country are we going to see in the years to come? And whose policies are going to be impacting that?
LATHAN: So it matters less so than policy?
FROST: It depends on what the -- I mean, I'm looking at the outcome. If I have two choices, these are my two options and these are their policies. A lot of people -- that's why I believe you see President Trump won the popular vote. A lot of people said, yes, I don't like the tweets, don't like some things are said, but those policies are better for me and my family and that's how I'm going.
PHILLIP: So, the character of the country is both the policies, but also, I mean, the people leading it. I mean, we're talking about many people accused of sexual assault.
SWISHER: I think the idea that you think you're perfect was always the problem. I'm from San Francisco and you can marry a goat, as far as I'm concerned.
PHILLIP: There's not -- like nobody's perfect, right?
SWISHER: But I think we have spent a lot of time sort of chastising people for their behavior. And, you know -- and I think that --
CARDONA: Do you think this is a result then of that?
SWISHER: I think it's a longer term thing. It's gone way back to Jerry Falwell. It's gone back long ago when that was happening. And I think it was always -- it's sort of a toxic thing of everybody pointing fingers and judging each other.
PHILLIP: So where does this -- where does it stop? Where's the line?
SWISHER: There's character that's important and then there's character that's not. I mean, I think that's the point.
LATHAN: You're from Arizona.
BROOMHEAD: Yes.
LATHAN: Okay. Like, policy aside, Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday aside, all of that stuff, wasn't John McCain just a decent guy?
BROOMHEAD: I I had such a --
LATHAN: He was just a decent guy.
BROOMHEAD: I'm going to get emotional. John McCain was so good to me.
LATHAN: All right.
BROOMHEAD: John McCain and I spent so much time together before he passed. And when I had to go on the air and talk about John McCain and I had to talk about his being ill, I was emotional, didn't realize it was going to hit me. He was so good to me.
And there's a rift in the Republican Party. And I will tell you that I honestly believe that the reason why Donald Trump lost Arizona in 2020 were the things he said about John McCain.
And so, yes, John McCain was a good man. And John McCain -- but that's -- we aren't running out of John McCains. What's happening is the voices that are loudest in the Republican Party, everything ebbs and flows. There are still good people in Arizona.
[22:25:01]
There are still people that are -- I'm a Christian person myself. I'm on a men's group on Wednesday nights. I church on Sunday morning. I think we need to bring that back. We should -- all of us should stop looking at better or worse and start looking at good and bad again.
But I think both sides are guilty of it. I agree we should be talking about it now because this is the side that won. But I don't know that we wouldn't be having at least a similar discussion in some things if Vice President Harris had won. I think the entire system has given up on character as being the leading part.
CARDONA: But I do think there's a difference in the parties in this, and that when all of the stuff came out and for, about Donald Trump in 2016, everyone thought he was done. Even Republicans thought he was done, right? And then you had -- to your point, the evangelical groups were the ones who came out and saved his butt because they were like, you know what, we're not looking for a pastor.
PHILLIP: Not even the groups, the voters. I think we need to be clear about that, because it was the voters.
CARDONA: And what they said was, look, we're not looking for a pastor. They put the policy of life in that situation above anything else.
So, where does that lead you? As a mother of two kids, and, you know, a lot of parents, right, have said this, and I believe this as a Democrat, they really did have a problem during 2016 and for the four years that Donald Trump was in office to teach your kids this is not somebody that you want to emulate. This is not somebody that you want to act like. This is not somebody that you should be proud of in terms of his character and his behavior.
PHILLIP: I agree that we should not hold politicians up on any kind of pedestal, okay? They are --
LATHAN: Just dudes.
PHILLIP: -- not great, okay?
CARDONA: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: But the reality -- yes. But we have to -- where's the line?
CARDONA: Yes.
PHILLIP: I think that's really the question that is unanswered. And whenever and when the line creeps up to any cabinet secretary can have allegations. I mean, it used to be if you hired a nanny illegally, you're out, okay?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: You support for sexual assault?
LATHAN: There are people that are just jerks, right? You're a jerk. You're mean to kids. You're mean to dogs, like some people kill their dogs and stuff like that, I definitely don't want to be around you. But when we're talking about moral failings that rise to the level of someone that, to me, should not have power and authority, when we're talking about moral failings that involve consent, moral failings that involve respect for people, moral failings that involve exploiting people, that's kind of the stuff that I'm kind of seeing. And to be honest with you, really, I used to like having a beer and talking to the Republicans around the way in Louisiana that would tell me I was doing wrong. I went to the club anyway, but I would like talking to them. Those people don't -- they don't seem like they're there anymore. Actually, they're the Democrats. Now, I'm just kind of like (INAUDIBLE).
FROST: One thing we do know is that every single thing will come out over the course of these confirmation hearings. If you want every single thing you've ever done to be revealed, you can do one of two things. You can get nominated for a Senate-confirmed position, or you can try to date my baby sister because I will find out every single thing about you.
PHILLIP: We will find out if it will matter in the end.
Coming up next, CNN discovers tapes of RFK Jr. calling Trump a terrible president and praising descriptions of his supporters as Nazis and idiots. So, now that he's a cabinet pick, who gets forgiveness in this Trump world and who doesn't?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:30:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, it's not what they say but who says it. Democrats spent the entire campaign calling Trump something J.D. Vance called him first, a fascist. Now, CNN has unearthed a video of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. comparing the president-elect to Adolf Hitler.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., U.S. POLITICIAN (voice-over): "You know, he's not like Hitler. Hitler had like a plan. You know, Hitler was interested in policy. He was interested in -- he had a historical view. I don't think Trump has any of that. I think he's like non- compos mentis.
Well, the way that you build a truly vicious nationalist movement is to wed a relatively small core of belligerent idiots to a much larger group of opportunists and spineless fellow travelers whose primary function is to turn a blind eye to things.
We may not have that many outright Nazis in America but we have plenty of cowards and bootlickers. And once those fleshy dominos start tumbling into the Trump camp, the game is up."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I was quite florid at that description. That was then also, this is now. Here's what RFK is saying now -- "Like many Americans, I allowed myself to believe the mainstream media's distorted dystopian portrait of President Trump. I no longer hold this belief and now regret having made those statements." Very well thought out statements.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Fleshy Dominoes is the name of my band. I mean, come on, come on. And he did it up until he made the deal, right? Until he got out, he was quite critical of President Trump.
But, you know, he can -- he can have a come to Jesus moment and decide that mainstream media made him think that, but we all know -- by the way, he's very educated. That was an astonishing number of words that were well put together. So, I don't know.
PHILLIP: I mean, up until basically this summer, he decided that Trump was going to give him what he wanted, which was the power over the food, power over the health conversation. In return, Trump made him eat McDonald's on an airplane, which is kind of par for the course for Trump.
[22:35:05]
UNKNOWN: What's the humiliation there for?
PHILLIP: Right, I think that this is the question. It's like, what does it take to get back into Trump's good graces? And I think a meal is perhaps one of the things, if you ask me.
KATIE FROST, TED CRUZ PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN 2016 FORMER AIDE: Historically, it's always the breaking of bread, right? That's how we come together around the table.
UNKNOWN: Is that bread?
FROST: Yes. We'll use air quotes, it's bread, or bread-like products.
UNKNOWN: Right. Yes.
FROST: But let me -- listen. This is something we've seen happen many times. President Trump seems to have this gift for turning adversaries into allies. Marco Rubio is going to be Secretary of State. He said some very negative things about President Trump when he was running, you know, for president. You see Elon Musk was critical of him. Now he's going to be his biggest ally. He's going to be leading up DOGE.
So, there is -- seems to be very much a pattern with President Trump. People have a caricature in their minds but then they see him govern, or they get to know him personally, and he's very persuasive.
UNKNOWN: Or the opposite.
PHILLIP: Or he has something that they want.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
SWISHER: But there's also the opposite when they leave, right? There's two parts.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The reversing of looking at someone, like someone that he hated and then being somebody that he likes or at least he welcomes into the camp doesn't come without a cost because you talk about the humiliation. He makes them bend the knee. He makes them, you know, jump through hoops. He makes them come to Mar-a-Lago and kiss the ring, right?
It's not a pretty sight when it happens when that person decides to put their political future or their own interests before, right, what their character is, where they stood before, which is probably how they really feel. They focus on, I need to be transactional. If I want a future in this party, if I want a future in politics, if I want to be a cabinet secretary, if I want to have control over my issues, I need to go and bend the knee. And they don't care about that.
VAN LATHAN, "HIGHER LEARNING" PODCAST CO-HOST: To me -- to me, these are the things that the American people should pay attention to. So, first of all, to get back in Trump's good graces is easy. He just makes you do the thing you said you wouldn't do.
So, the thing that you said you wouldn't do, the thing that you said was absolutely true about him, that one scathing indictment that you made, you walk it back or you do the thing that you said you wouldn't do. But to me, paying attention to people who tell us about morals,
values, God, country, what they do when the rubber meets the road, when there's something in it for them, that is what you pay attention to when you're choosing your leaders. You can pay attention to votes, you can pay attention to policy, all that stuff matters.
But when you're choosing a leader, which you should pay attention to, is what someone does when there's a carrot being dangled in front of them. And these people fail this test. They fail this test because when they think that they can beat them, they want to beat them. But when they know that they can't, they join them.
PHILLIP: But Nikki Haley came back into the fold. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
UNKNOWN: So --
PHILLIP: Nikki Haley came back into the fold but Trump didn't forgive her.
MIKE BROOMHEAD, "THE BROOMHEAD SHOW" KTAR PHOENIX RADIO: Well, and I agree that, but the question I keep thinking about this, so you're questioning of all of these people that they didn't genuinely change their minds when they got to know Donald Trump. This was because a carrot was dangled in front of them.
LATHAN: So, what I'm saying is, it is --
BROOMHEAD: And I'm not trying to ignore your question.
LATHAN: No, no, no. It's one thing to go from, hey, this guy is not qualified to lead. This guy is too boisterous or rude. That's one thing. But to go from Hitler to me and him are cool, that is a gigantic week. I thought you were Hitler, but now we can eat dinner.
BROOMHEAD: Didn't Vice President Harris call President Biden a racist to his face on the debate stage?
LATHAN: She absolutely did.
BROOMHEAD: So, isn't she guilty of doing the same thing?
LATHAN: Even if -- whether she is or whether she's not, she very well may be. Whether she is or whether she did it or she didn't do it.
BROOMHEAD: So, then why didn't it disqualify her from being a candidate for president?
LATHAN: Look, so what I -- what I don't want to do here though is get too into the tit for tat, both sides do it. Look, I'll tell you right now, I'm not Democrat. I'm not Democrat. Let's say that all the Democrats are messed up, too. When I said choosing a leader, I didn't say choosing a Republican leader or choosing a Democratic leader.
When someone has the opportunity to further their career and they go back on things that they said that were fundamental, I'm not talking about, I'm talking about threat to democracy. I'm talking about Hitler. I'm talking about nationalism. I'm talking about using words that are that charged. And then you're doing about things --
BROOMHEAD: R.F.K. Jr. doesn't need the government. Neither does Elon Musk, he's a multi-billion. They don't need that in a government position.
PHILLIP: The one thing I'll say -- hang on a second. The one thing I'll say about R.F.K. Jr. is that he was very clear about this. When --right before the election, he told his supporters, you need to not vote for me and vote for Donald Trump because this is the only way that we will get what we want, which is control over the health agencies.
He was, the quid pro quo, so to speak, was pretty transparent. He said it. So, he clearly told his supporters, we're getting something out of this. Vote for Trump.
CARDONA: It couldn't be more transactional.
BROOMHEAD: But that's what every campaign's about.
PHILLIP: I know, I mean, we're just saying politics is the distillation of politics in a human form.
BROOMHEAD: But saying that Donald Trump is just this corrupt human being and that everybody else he associates with, he corrupts them and they compromise every moral that they have in order to be on his side, I just think it's an unfair characterization of all this.
[22:40:09]
SWISHER: We didn't say everyone. We're saying in this case.
BROOMHEAD: But you said Elon Musk, RFK Jr.
SWISHER: Elon Musk had -- has shifted his personality. I know him -- I've interviewed him more times than anyone, I think, for many, many years, for 30 years. I never knew what his politics were until he was sort of an Obama person, he was sort of this. That shift was significant but it was much more complex. It had to do with COVID, it had to do with his child, it had to do with a lot of things.
This RFK one feels very transactional. And I think Abby's right. It is a very long road from Hitler to, I didn't mean Hitler. You don't have to do that. Same thing with J.D. Vance.
CARDONA: Same thing --
SWISHER: I've been at events before J.D., when J.D. Vance didn't like Trump, he really didn't like him so much so that I was at something where he was so anti-Trump that I was like, hey, there are some good things about this guy. And if I'm the one saying it, I was sort of surprised by the vehemence. And so, the vehemence was then shifted into utter support. It is suspect and you should suspect.
BROOMHEAD: I just think it's unfair. It's unfair to question people.
CARDONA: What's unfair?
BROOMHEAD: Questioning their character, that they're giving up all of their character in order to get a position in somebody's cabinet. I just think it's an unfair characterization.
PHILLIP: You think that, just to be clear, you think that people are just having a profound change of heart -- all of these people.
BROOMHEAD: I think that when --
PHILLIP: Do you think none of them are --
BROOMHEAD: No, I'm not saying there's nothing transactional about it. I'm saying that when they're looking at the options that they had for the presidency, they chose this path thinking it was a better path. I don't think it was a better path.
CARDONA: Because they were getting something better out of it.
LATHAN: I agree with you that some of the voters did that. Not to cut your wisdom, but I think that some of the voters did that. But when we're talking about these people, we're talking about going from being the other end of the spectrum to being lap dogs. And I'm not, you know, I don't want to get into a hole, but you know, lap dog.
BROOMHEAD: You think Elon Musk is a lap dog?
LATHAN: Magi.
SWISHER: Yes.
BROOMHEAD: We just agree to disagree. I don't think he's a lapdog for anyone.
FROST: Just real quick, though, going back to the RFK statements, those are from eight years ago. A lot has happened over the last eight years. I know a lot of people who did not vote for President Trump in 2016 and energetically, not begrudgingly, energetically went and voted for him in 2024.
PHILLIP: Yes, but RFK did criticize Trump until basically this summer.
FROST: Of course you're going to criticize the guy you're running against. I mean, he's right, but you were having this --
PHILLIP: He was running mostly against Joe Biden. He basically stopped doing that when Kamala Harris came in the race. And then he sided with Trump. So, he was criticizing Trump.
FROST: But you know, there's something I do hope that we as a society remember, and we are getting better at this, I hope, is that people can genuinely change their views. I'm not saying politicians in this case, but people can change their opinions and their views on something --
SWISHER: Absolutely -- sure.
FROST: -- when they learn more and they gain more information and we have this idea that --
BROOMHEAD: I was married once.
PHILLIP: You know what?
UNKNOWN: Now you know better.
PHILLIP: You know who would be the most happy to hear you say that? Kamala Harris. Coming up next, a new twist in the saga of Jussie Smollett. He's the actor who was convicted of making up a story that MAGA racists attacked him. Well, that conviction has now been tossed out suddenly. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:47]
PHILLIP: It became a flashpoint for race and MAGA in America. But tonight, a court is tossing Jussie Smollett's conviction for falsifying a hate crime. A jury found that Smollett did invent a story about a MAGA attack, and he lied to police about it. His conviction, though, is now being thrown out because the judge believes the prosecution shouldn't have gone through with trying him after they agreed to a deal that didn't involve jail time.
But just a headline with his name in it is prompting everyone to revisit this very complicated conversation about race and politics. It is one of those kind of key moments of that era. And what was striking to me is that the Jussie Smollett of it all is still brought up today.
I mean, when Kamala Harris was running over the summer, she was ridiculed for this tweet that she put out saying -- this was back in 2019 - "Jesse Smollett is one of the kindest, most gentle human beings I know. I'm praying for his recovery. This was an attempted modern day lynching." I'm not sure she -- as far as conservatives were concerned, ever lived that down.
SWISHER: Well, she believed it at the time, right?
CARDONA: Yes, she wasn't the only one.
SWISHER: She believed it, a lot of people did. It's a really sad situation. I have a friend who was very involved with Empire and I think I asked them today and they said, it's just much sadder than you realize what happened here. And I know, you know, I don't think what he did was right in any way, and it was terrible that he did it. But probably, this is probably the best outcome for something like that.
PHILLIP: It's also the like the origin story of like the backlash to the sort of like racial justice moment that was happening at that time. LATHAN: Yes, as far as I'm concerned, Jesse back up, Jesse back out
here. This is vindication. Jesse needs all movies restored, all rolls back, all records back in play right now. We needed a victory.
We've been on a losing streak for a couple of weeks. Jesse's back. I think that people overreacted to this and I told people this before. Even if Jesse did do this, even if he did do it, it's just not that big of a deal to me.
FROST: But they're not saying he didn't lie. They're saying he shouldn't have gone through with the prosecution.
UNKNOWN: Because of double jeopardy.
FROST: Because of, but I'm saying it's not like saying, oh, he's clear, he's fine, he never --
CARDONA: And he -- and he -- at least I don't think his people aren't declaring that.
SWISHER: Right.
CARDONA: They're just saying from what I understand, it's time to move on.
SWISHER: And let's just put this behind us.
PHILLIP: But there were, I mean, there were real consequences.
CARDONA: There were. Well, that's why. That's why there was a backlash. Right. Absolutely.
PHILLIP: There were resources, money spent. Absolutely. And it was like this dominant national conversation. I mean, I think that's really what happened.
FROST: And it also, unfortunately, it makes -- then calls into question other stories that happen where there is legitimate problems.
PHILLIP: I mean, don't you think, Van, that it hurt the cause?
LATHAN: No, it didn't hurt the cause. First of all, it shouldn't. I am a person, a sentient being of my own. If I have something that happens to me, the police's job to enforce and investigate the law. It doesn't matter whether 10 people lied before me.
The veracity in which you investigate something. I'm not always going to be the arbiter or the standard bearer for black men, black men from Louisiana, black men from Baton Rouge. And if somebody else lies, and then the cops decide, okay, well God, we lied a couple of weeks ago, so we're going to let that one pass. What are we talking about?
The only time that people are actually held to that standard is when they are black, is when they are a woman. Because if one woman has a claim of sexual assault or something and it is not true, then okay well the cops don't have to do it the next time. No. FROST: Well, it has a lot to do with the cops, it also has a lot to
do with the court of public opinion. People are less likely to take things seriously when all these accusations --
LATHAN: George Floyd was killed in front of the entire world and you watched the knee on his neck and you still had documentaries, talking points, all kinds of things that try to exonerate Derek Chauvin. It don't matter what they see. So, there's no way that you can be good enough or clean enough or true enough. It don't matter.
PHILLIP: And these -- and these kinds of things, I mean, to your point about how this ended, you made this point, too, Kara. Hoaxes happen, right? And in this case, it ended with him not really having, you know, to serve out jail time.
A lot of other people, they pay fines and they move on. But he became, I think this is the case his attorneys are making an example of all of this. So, you know, we're back to 2019 again.
UNKNOWN: That happens all the time.
PHILLIP: And it does happen all the time.
UNKNOWN: Look at Martha Stewart. You know, a lot of people.
UNKNOWN: And maybe the best thing is that --
PHILLIP: We've got a quick programming note for you though. Laura Coates is about to speak with the Cook County State's attorney who initially dismissed the charges in the Jussie Smollett case, Kim Fox.
She's on tonight at 11 o'clock Eastern time right here on CNN. But before that, the panel is going to be back to give us their night caps, including a message to middle school parents around the world.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:57:32]
PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. Katie, you're up.
FROST: So, my news cap is Pennsylvania, home of my grandmother and my beloved Pittsburgh Penguins. The election cycle is officially over now in Pennsylvania. Bob Casey has conceded the election to Dave McCormick.
The long recount that went on, it was very expensive, shifted votes by like single digits in some counties. It's nice to see that the election is over. We have the teams, we have the rosters. So, congratulations to Senator-elect Dave McCormick. Your first couple months will not be boring.
PHILLIP: Elections continue to be free and fair in the United States of America Marine. CARDONA: In 2023, there was a song called, Richmond North of Richmond
by Oliver Darcy that went viral because MAGA Republicans used it to bash liberal elites about how they were turning their backs on working class Americans. Fast forward to now, a MAGA appointed, Trump appointed judge just bashed down a Biden administration rule that would have increased overtime pay for more than four million Americans.
A lawsuit was brought by MAGA leaders, Ken Paxton in Texas and some other MAGA CEOs who did not want to pay overtime pay. Democrats need to take advantage of this to underscore the hypocrisy of MAGA Republicans and to underscore that it's Democrats that have the policies that actually lift up working Americans.
PHILLIP: All right, Kara.
SWISHER: So, I'm the tech person here. In that case, look at me. Look at me. Where are you? Right there. Listen. Venmo should never be used when doing crimes. All right? Always use cash. Do not use checks. As it was said in the social network, the internet is written in ink that doesn't come out so you have to remember, don't use Venmo. You can use it to pay for other things.
LATHAN: The Louisiana State University Fighting Tigers lost out on the number one quarterback in next year's cycle, Bryce Underwood. He was paid upwards of $12 million to go to the University of Michigan. We have to do better at LSU in getting money, and there's one man who can help us, Todd Graves, the Chicken Finger Bandit of Louisiana.
You made billions of dollars selling chicken fingers to people in my state. We need the money, we need it now. Todd, help us do it now. We've supported you for years. Bail us out, please, we're going to lose.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Mike.
BROOMHEAD: Man, I'm so glad we're talking about sports. So, mine is completely different.
[23:00:00]
I think that every kid in high school or middle school should play a sport or be in a team activity in order to graduate. I learned from a football coach I coached with. He said to the team on the very first day, you win with grace and you lose with dignity.
And we've lost that in this country, that you should be able to shake the hand of your opponent when a game's over. Rivalry weekend in the NFL and I'm a Miami Hurricane. we lost to Georgia Tech it was a disappointing -- but after the game was over, the players embrace.
UNKNOWN: Love it.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very much and thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
