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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Promises 25 Percent Tariff on All Canadian, Mexican Goods; Special Counsel Drops Documents and January 6th Cases Against Trump; Trump Team Probes Aide Over Alleged Attempt to Profit Off Trump. Elon Musk and Donald Trump Jr. Think It Would Be Funny To Buy MSNBC; Hulk Hogan Suggests He Might Have A Role In President-Elect Trump's Government. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 25, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, tariffs and payback. Donald Trump makes a day one promise to punish Canada and Mexico. But is he really punishing American shoppers?
Plus, dismissed, the special counsel wraps the prosecutions of the president-elect. But should the sitting president put his successor above the law?
Also, Elon Musk remade Twitter in his dark MAGA image. Now, he muses about buying up MSNBC. Is the future of media memes or propaganda?
And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trumpamania.
CORNISH: Would Donald Trump say --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me tell you something, brother.
CORNISH: -- to tagging the Hulkster in to the as seen on T.V. cabinet.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, Chuck Rocha and Jim Geraghty.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CORNISH (on camera): Good evening, I'm Audie Cornish in for Abby Phillips.
So, let's get right to what America is talking about, prices. Tonight, Donald Trump wants to hit Canada and China and Mexico in their wallets, which means tariffs. We are back apparently to the era of federal policy announced via social media, the president-elect on Truth Social, of course promising to penalize both neighbors to the north and to the south with a 25 percent tariff on all products entering the U.S. starting on day one of his second term. Trump also vowing financial vengeance on China with a 10 percent tariff, on top of all the other tariffs already in place against Beijing.
CNN Economics Commentator Catherine Rampell joins us in the fifth seat. And, Catherine, I want to start with your initial reaction to this 25 percent, because it's not unexpected, right? We've been hearing that tariffs would be coming with a Trump administration.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: I mean, it is not unexpected in a sense it may be unexpected to Americans who thought Trump was going to lower their prices. Because if you voted for Trump because you thought he was going to bring grocery prices down, I have some very bad news for you.
A lot of our produce comes from Mexico. Two-thirds of the tomatoes that Americans purchase are from Mexico. 90 percent of the avocados that they purchase are from Mexico. Just to mention two examples, so that guac is definitely going to cost extra.
If you voted for Trump because you thought he was going to bring down the cost of housing, a lot of our lumber, cement, other materials comes from Canada, which means that construction costs are going to go up, not to mention all of the ways he's going to roil the U.S. auto industry, because a lot of autos cross borders in North America multiple times before they're ultimately finished and sold to consumers, not to mention the fact that a lot of U.S. manufacturers purchase inputs, intermediate goods, like metals and cement and other things, from Canada, from Mexico. And not to mention even the retaliation that we should expect. All of which is going to be very bad for consumers, not to mention, again, many of the U.S. workers that Trump allegedly wants to help.
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND FOUNDER, NUESTRO PAC: What about tequila?
RAMPELL: Tequila, I would bet that's going to stop.
ROCHA: I'm out. Count me out.
CORNISH: Can I ask our Republicans at the table? I know there's a love hate relationship with tariffs, with some people sort of saying like, yes, they can have -- they can be a cudgel against other countries when you want to have influence over their policy. And we should say in these Truth Social tweets, he was talking about immigration and the border and fentanyl. But that's a long economic laundry list.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, the last time Catherine and I were on, you were saying that if Trump deports illegal immigrants, our groceries are going to go up because who will pick our crops. Now, you're saying if he does tariffs, you're saying all the groceries come from Mexico and Canada. So -- RAMPELL: Yes, we do produce --
JENNINGS: So, you have now officially had it both ways.
RAMPELL: Yes, all the groceries -- no. These things are not mutually exclusive. The groceries --
JENNINGS: You just said, all the produce is coming from Mexico. But before we were all together, you were saying, no, it's all picked by illegals here in the U.S.
RAMPELL: I said nothing of the sort.
CORNISH: We do actually have a sense of what this could affect in terms of goods, for instance, from Canada. Oil is one of the things. Also when it comes to China, technology machinery, you've got that from Canada here, vehicles is another one. You know, the reason why I wanted to start the show with this is because like it's shopping time. I mean, we are literally heading into the season.
[22:05:01]
And --
RAMPELL: It's shopping time --
CORNISH: -- avocados aside, there's a lot of stuff that's going to come up.
RAMPELL: Gas prices are going to go up too.
CORNISH: Jim, you've said in the past that you did not like across the board tariffs. So, when someone gets on, and says 25 percent, check everyone, and you feel what?
JIM GERAGHTY, CONTRIBUTING COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: I would point out that Mexico did violate the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade agreement earlier this year when they enacted AMLO's judicial reforms. So, technically, Trump could say this is in retaliation for that. What he did say is every time Trump rattles the saber, and he's been calling for tariffs on just about everything since the 1980s, he always gives the other country an out. He always says, this is what I want to see. I want to see fentanyl response from China. I want to see closing the borders. I want to see immigration.
And we went through a lot of this in the first term. And Trump would always say, we're going to have the biggest, the most terrible tariffs you've ever seen. We're going to tear up the hell out of you. And inevitably there'd be some sort of -- everyone would panic, and then there'd be some sort of sense of, okay, can we get a fig leaf? Can we get some sort of policy change that Trump can point to and say, this is a win?
USMCA was not dramatically different from NAFTA, but Trump acted like he had completely reinvented it and finally gotten Americans this much better deal. I'd be surprised if we actually enact these tariffs and prices go up everywhere. Then everybody in the administration is going to be saying, okay, how can we get out of this while looking like we've got some sort of victory? Any move by these foreign governments is going to be seen as, okay, that's our out.
CORNISH: And, Chuck, let me bring you into this because, obviously, there are a lot of constituencies that were very interested in the Trump administration, Trump 47 being a sort of shift to the economy and some of it. That would benefit them. Who benefits here?
ROCHA: Look, it all depends who you are. If you're in the Trump administration, you're going to say, I've been telling you this from day one. I think there's nobody here, even Democrats, even this Democrat, who would say that we don't want to secure the border.
And to Scott's point, he's been talking about it for a long time. There's $476, if I did my Googling right, billion that come in from Mexico. And if you start putting in a tariff on that, and it costs people more money, and the prices go up, I think there will be a pushback from lots of people across the country because they voted for cheaper gas and groceries.
RAMPELL: I'll tell you who benefits from this. It's anybody that. Trump tipped off at Mar-a-Lago yesterday that he was going to do this because the exchange rate between the Mexican peso and the U.S. dollar just rapidly changed. So, yes, there are some people who are going to pocket some money from this.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I understand Trump's hatred or disdain for Mexico. I don't understand --
GERAGHTY: Let's not forget the Canadians.
ALLISON: Well, that's what I was about to --
GERAGHTY: They're saying, what did I do?
ALLISON: Exactly. That's what I'm saying.
JENNINGS: No, the question is, what did they not do?
ALLISON: It's like Trump -- everybody is Trump's enemy at some point. And so Canada, you know, why are they the out of China, Mexico and Canada? Those are the three countries. But also I just think --
RAMPELL: They blamed Canada for fentanyl coming in.
ALLISON: But I think the thing that'll be interesting is, look, we had an election, I'm going to say it over and over elections have consequences. It is going to be shopping season, but Donald Trump won't be the president when this first holiday season comes.
But if he enacts tariffs by the time the next holiday season comes, which will be 2025 going into a midterm year of 2026, that administration will have questions to answer to the American people that he sold a bill of goods and now the bills are a lot higher. CORNISH: And I want to add one thing. You said it's not this season, but you already have many American companies speaking to the media, right, saying, you know, whether it be Walmart, whether it be whoever. I know in our podcast, we're talking to people in the fashion industry about like what the materials they're buying ahead of time. So, it will make a big difference even if it means people rushing in this moment.
I want to move to this issue of immigration since you guys kind of have all touched on it here, which is that you have the sort of potential incoming administration talking about how they will wield policy. And one of the ways to do that is to threaten federal funding to sanctuary cities, sanctuary states, et cetera. We've seen this before. But do we think that this is going to be the approach that works, so to speak, if you want to implement something as big as mass deportation?
JENNINGS: Well, he needs to threaten these local officials who are currently threatening, you know, what you might characterize as an insurrection when they're saying, hey, we're going to resist the federal government's attempt --
CORNISH: We will save insurrection for insurrection, Scott.
JENNINGS: Listen, you've got elected officials --
GERAGHTY: Denver Mayor Mike Johnston said he was going to deploy the Denver Police to stop federal immigration officials from enforcing that. Now, he backtracked from that, unsurprisingly. He had said, I'm willing to go to jail over this. And I believe it was, you know, the Trump's appointee for Homeland Security or for immigration was like, yes, fine, that's fine. We agree to your terms. We will put you in jail over that.
The Trump administration desperately wants some Democratic official to deploy cops who should be out trying to get criminals to stop illegal immigrants from being rounded up and sent over back for deportment. They want this fight. They'd love to have this fight.
CORNISH: Chuck?
ROCHA: I was fishing to ask you which one of the administrations in Trump. Was it Hulk Hogan or Macho Man, Randy Savage, but (INAUDIBLE) stable in this immigration stuff, the two got me there.
So, look, me and Scott have had this debate and Scott will tell me that we're just going to deport bad people or these people. I think he says it's one point. Check me, Scott. 1.2 people, it's got records that need to be deported, some kind of --
[22:10:03]
JENNINGS: Almost 1.6.
ROCHA: 1.6, all right. So, we talked last time I was here about my business partner who is from El Salvador, whose TPS expires in March. If she doesn't self-deport, she is one of these criminals at that point, and she's been here for 26 years or 22 years. She came here when she was six. And she works for me. She will make more money than a U.S. congressman and pay more taxes than him this year.
This is the problem I have. This is the problem where real people's real lives are going to be affected by this, and I think there's kickback to that.
JENNINGS: I think that the deportation and immigration conversation goes hand in hand with the tariff conversation. Because the stated reason for the tariffs is not just because he's mad as he wants to use it as a tool, as a cudgel, against these countries that he doesn't think are stopping the flow of people and drugs across our border. That's the point of it. But he ran on essentially a couple of issues here that are tied to the same thing, which is that he believes illegal immigration has led to all sorts of cultural and governance problems for this country.
CORNISH: It's not that. I think we're also kind of asking everyone, and people talk about this with Democrats a lot, unintended consequences is a real thing, right? So, what are you walking into?
RAMPELL: Well, it's not even unintended consequences. If you look at whom Trump prioritized for deportation in his first term, it was not the criminals. In fact, he released more convicted criminals, convicted and charged criminals into the United States than Biden did, because he was filling up his jails with asylum seekers and TPS recipients whose TPS had expired and, you know, refugees and visa overstays.
They can say all they want that they're planning to prioritize criminals, which I think is great. In fact, Obama did that. Obama, remember, was the deporter-in-chief. But that is not what Trump did. He literally rescinded a Trump era order that prioritized deported -- you know, detaining and deporting criminals in favor of having no priorities, which means everyone, which means your business partner, which means the --
CORNISH: Yes. Ashley, let's --
ALLISON: The thing that will be interesting is that, you're right, we debated over and over. I don't agree with Donald Trump's immigration policies. He also has never really explained how he's going to execute the deportations, which gives a lot of people fear, alarm and concern. But when the deportations start to happen and people see children going home from school and a parent not being there anymore, we're all human. There's an emotional toll that takes place on our society, and that is what governing is hard.
I don't agree with it, but when he starts to implement his policies, it will have real implications on people's lives, American citizens and people who are living here that are not documented. And we'll see what the American public -- I suspect that very soon in the Trump administration, people will remember what those four years used to be like under Donald Trump, and they will -- some will regret their choices. CORNISH: All right. We're going to pause there, partly because this is an ongoing conversation, right? We'll definitely come back to it.
Catherine, thank you so much for giving us a detail on these tariffs. I appreciate it. Everyone else, hold tight because we are going to get into some legal news. Jack Smith drops the cases against Donald Trump. And then we're hearing from columnists who argue that maybe Biden should pardon his successor.
Plus, we're going to talk about Elon Musk because he's been musing about buying the liberal network MSNBC. So, is MAGA plotting a media takeover? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
CORNISH: Tonight, the president-elect gets a hall pass from the special counsel. Now, stay with me. There were two federal cases targeting Donald Trump, the classified documents probe and the election interference investigation that was until today, because Jack Smith is moving to dismiss all charges against Mr. Trump. The filings erase ongoing criminal prosecutions with major potential prison time for Trump, were a jury to convict him.
Now, in Georgia, Trump is still a defendant in a state case related to his attempt to overturn the 2020 election laws. In New York, Trump is still a felon, but his sentencing for the Stormy Daniels case has been postponed indefinitely.
But would it be wise for Joe Biden to make his last official act forever, putting Trump past his sentence? Well, an op-ed in the Washington Post is arguing just that, saying that Biden should pardon Trump.
Ashley, I want to start with you, because throughout the campaign, Biden always talked about not being involved in these cases. The White House always made it clear they're not involved. So, what do you make of this idea that they would suddenly weigh in some way?
ALLISON: Well, you know, before I came on, I wanted -- I thought I understood what a pardon process was. And for those who are requesting that Donald Trump be pardoned, there may be an underlying theme, is that because he did something wrong, like break the law. So, no, don't pardon him. The cases have been dropped. Let him be president. Case closed.
CORNISH: And we should be clear for facts' sake that like there are no federal things to pardon him from (INAUDIBLE). So, you're talking about state governors in Georgia and New York, but I think it's, again, this sense of like everything will go back to the way it was. Chuck, you're nodding.
ROCHA: Yes. I was just sitting here thinking I agree with yes, and I think that the American people. I've been thinking -- we were sitting here talking about, you know, everything that all the commercials we saw in the off season and during the season. And I think people are just tired of all of this. Like for regular folks, and I don't mean if you've got a Scott Jennings poster at the house, or if you're out there waving a Trump flag --
JENNINGS: (INAUDIBLE) going on out there.
ROCHA: I know there is. It's horrible. But I'm not talking about those people. Regular folks, about 90 percent of everybody's tired. They give out about this election, they give out about Donald Trump, they give out about the Democrats too, all of the above. So, I think if he was to pardon Trump, I think the top of the White House would blow off.
CORNISH: Would it work, so to speak?
[22:20:00]
I mean, in this op-ed, I think they're basically arguing that this is kind of a way to like stop the endless cycle of what goes around, comes around, that it would be a bold statement and that somehow it would allow Trump like a very fresh approach start. Jim?
GERAGHTY: This op-ed is written by my right of center colleague, Marc Thiessen, who I think the world of. I think he's great. He also wants a pony for Christmas, and he's probably not going to get that either.
CORNISH: Did you just make that up? Because like there's legal -- you can't just be saying someone wants a pony. Yes.
GERAGHTY: Yes. Well, there's that, but just like you could make an argument that by reelecting Trump, the American public has decided to give him a de facto partner that is not disqualifying in their minds.
Having said that, if Biden were to do that, it would devastate the Democratic Party, who has been believing that Trump is Beelzebub for four years. And this isn't just giving, you know, back to normalcy. This is giving him the good housekeeping seal of approval. This is giving him the get out of jail free card, you know, in Monopoly.
JENNINGS: I agree with Jim. I think that Biden has kind of already politically pardoned Trump. He invited him to the White House and had a happy meeting. He's going to his inauguration. I mean, this is just a few weeks after the entire Democratic Party telling us there's never going to be any more elections. We're not going to have the Constitution anymore. It's going to be a bloodbath, et cetera, et cetera.
So, politically, he's already effectively absolved Donald Trump of all the accusations that he personally made against him. This is an unnecessary action and we don't need it.
CORNISH: Well, then let me move to something else because there is a legal legacy we can talk about when it comes to the Supreme Court, because obviously it was Jack Smith's cases moving up to the Supreme Court that indirectly, you know, after their ruling on presidential immunity, really kind of, in a way, altered the power balance there when it comes to the executive. Am I overstating things?
GERAGHTY: No, I think -- so the argument, like Scalia, there was an interesting argument going back and forth about how Scalia would have felt about this claim of broad immunity. And Scalia was always a constitutionalist. I saw some folks, I think it was at New York Magazine, saying, oh, no, well, Scalia was right wing and thus Scalia would have ruled the way Trump would have wanted.
I think the record of all of Trump's judges is that they call him as they see them. And they have ruled against Trump at his interest plenty of times.
CORNISH: But I think it's the irony that Jack Smith's cases were, in some way, supposed to curb Trump, or at least send a message to future presidents, no man is above the law, et cetera. Ashley, do you see what I'm getting at? And in the end, the legacy is actually coming to be something different.
ALLISON: It is. And I understand like Joe Biden is being the adult in the room. He did what a president is supposed to do by having a peaceful transition of power, which Donald Trump did not do. And I don't -- just because these cases have been dismissed and another reason why I don't think that Joe Biden should pardon him, we all sat and watched what happened on January 6th. I don't think behavior like that should be normalized.
Now, please, prove me wrong in 2028 when Donald Trump cannot run for president again, let's have a free and fair election, like you say we will, let's -- when he is no longer able to be president, let's have a peaceful -- let him get it right the second time, perhaps, and have a peaceful transfer of power. But until then, let's I am allowed as American that have two working eyes to remain skeptical.
CORNISH: And we should say that Jack Smith in his filing did say that this outcome, what he was dealing with, is not based on the merits or strength of the case against the defendant. He was not saying, I give up because I have no case. He was saying, look, now he is president- elect, it's different. And --
JENNINGS: It's a strange case because most of the time, the American people don't get to serve as a massive jury for most of our criminal trials in this country. In this case, they did and Donald Trump won. And so, effectively, the election, I think, has put this matter behind us. Biden has -- I mean, you say he's, you know, doing what a normal president would do. I mean, you wouldn't do those things if you really believe what you had said before the election.
But now that the American people have spoken and this transition is occurring and Trump is going to take office, it's right and proper for him to drop the case.
CORNISH: Biden has always promised that he wanted to have a peaceful transfer of power. So, I do think no matter what that was, the thing he--
JENNINGS: Even to a fascist? I mean, that's -- (CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: How ridiculous does that sound?
CORNISH: I'm not Joe Biden. I'm just telling you what the man said. I want to --
GERAGHTY: He say these cases were dismissed without prejudice, which means, theoretically, they could come back four years from now.
CORNISH: Exactly.
GERAGHTY: Trump will be 82 four years from now when he finishes the second term. Nobody's going to be worried about Mar-a-Lago documents. And think about it. Four years from now. We'll have a whole bunch of new Trump scandals to file suits about.
CORNISH: Yes. No, but I think the point is also kind of legacy and what it means for the separation of powers going forward, right? Like I'm not a lawyer, but obviously that's what they're getting excited about. I want to ask one other thing, which is that CNN is learning that Trump's attorneys are investigating internally allegations against Boris Epshteyn because he sought to gain financially from his influence with Trump and others in the president elect's orbit.
This is really curious because so much in the first term was about the potential for trying to gain access.
[22:25:00]
Chuck, you were leaning in there. You have thoughts.
ROCHA: This is my favorite one because if you want to make Donald Trump mad, go make some money off of his name. His son was on Fox News tonight pretty much saying that. And what he did is illegal. What he did is what powerbrokers w do in Washington D.C. every single day.
CORNISH: Yes, we should say, allegedly requesting payment in exchange for promoting candidates and this came up in particularly with the treasury.
JENNINGS: High level, yes.
CORNISH: Yes, high level and really fought after.
ROCHA: $100,000 a month. Sign me up for that one. Anyway, that's what Donald Trump gets mad about when you make money off of him. And I find it very ironic that Trump's internal team is investigating somebody on their team, but none of their nominees can be vetted by the FBI. I find that the most ironic of all of this, but I guarantee you, Donald Trump ain't going to be happy about it.
GERAGHTY: Hasn't this guy watched a single mafia movie or the Penguin? If you're going to skim, you don't to -- always make sure enough money's going to the boss. You don't want to be seen dipping your beak in where the money is. Look, if you are around Donald Trump, you have power, you have considerable amount of influence. Right now, Mar-a-Lago is like a royal court and everybody wants to see who has the king's ear and who has that. If you've got the power, you can't have the money right now. You have to wait. You have to write your memoirs later on, then you get the money.
JENNINGS: Well, he did have the money. He was making $53,000 a month apparently from Trump already, not including whatever it was he was able to talk people into giving him on the other side of his --
CORNISH: Are people reading too much into this? Is this really just an in-house squabble?
ALLISON: No. I think that, well --
GERAGHTY: We're shocked that somebody around Trump would have bad ethics.
ALLISON: Well, I think for inside D.C.ers, it's not a surprise, but I think It could be challenging to the American public. I remember when Barack Obama came into office. He did not want his staff to interact with lobbyists, and that was like clutch the pearls, right? But it was a way to change about this pay-for-play that happens in Washington, DC. And when you pay to play, you always are not putting the American people first, which is what we hope elected officials do.
JENNINGS: The transition, I should note, has a 60 percent approval rating right now according to the CBS/YouGov poll as of Sunday morning. So, on the whole, the American people like what's going on here. I think the Trump people were smart to try to get on top of this so that it didn't sour what has otherwise been, I think, a pretty successful transition so far.
GERAGHTY: Let's also point out that Epshteyn was the one who recommended Matt Gaetz for attorney general. So, a heck of a call there, great job.
CORNISH: Yes, all right.
ROCHA: That's also to say me and Ashley are dramatically underpaid.
CORNISH: Everyone, stick around. Next, we're going to talk about Elon Musk and Don Jr. because they were fantasizing about buying a media company, MSNBC. So, there is actually an autocratic model for taking over media networks. We also have another special guest who will join our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
CORNISH: Tonight, a joke or a slippery slope. Elon Musk and Donald Trump Jr. think it would be funny to buy MSNBC. Now, they may just be trying to own the libs, of course. But if you take them seriously, they also might be starting a so-called media capture campaign. It's something that happened in Hungary where allies of far-right
leader Viktor Orban have snapped up TV and radio stations and turned them into propaganda bullhorns. If you're wondering why Orban's name sounds so familiar, he's a big fan of the president-elect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (R): There's a great man, a great leader in Europe, Viktor Orban. I always quote Viktor Orban because he's a very respected tough guy. They always say, he's a tough guy. Very, very tough. Some people don't like him because he's very tough.
Viktor Orban said if Trump comes back, you won't have any wars. You won't have any wars. Viktor Orban, one of the most respected men. They call him a strong man. He's a tough person. Smart. Prime Minister of Hungary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: CNN contributor Cari Champion joins us in our fifth seat. So, Cari, I want to ask you about this idea of media takeover because after Elon Musk purchased Twitter, changed it into X, there's no doubt that he exercised some power there. So, how do you hear this even in jest kind of purchase of a cable network?
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be with you tonight.
CORNISH: Good to be with you, as well.
CHAMPION: Thanks for having me.
CORNISH: Yes.
CHAMPION: I think that we should believe everything that is said coming from this administration. I don't think that we have the luxury to dismiss it as him being someone who's being funny or someone who is just being himself or that is his brand. X -- and you said in some ways, always.
I feel like X, I don't know if anyone is on it in any capacity. I don't know if you're on it. You're the only one? You're on it? You all are on it? OK. I've actually decided to take a rest of peace because it is not a peaceful place for me.
And I know if, in fact, you don't agree with this current administration, most people can say that it's not a peaceful place. I would not -- I wouldn't be surprised if there was an actual bid made to take on MSNBC, but the fact that it just can't happen in real life.
CORNISH: Yes, and we just can't -- it's not officially for sale, we should say.
CHAMPION: Yes, it's not officially for sale.
CORNISH: The last time he mused about maybe buying something, he ended up doing it.
CHAMPION: It's not even realistic in real life. But I do believe that media, everyone sitting here at this table, if you don't agree, we are in for some tough-- we're in for some tough years ahead.
CORNISH: Yes.
CHAMPION: I do believe that we are not going to be able to be as safe or say what we want to. I don't think free speech is going to be as free.
CORNISH: Now, Scott, I want to bring you in here because this kind of link to Orban that we don't pull it from nowhere. There was a former member of the Hungarian parliament who was writing in "Politico" who kind of talked about this effort by that government and how specific it was in terms of purchasing media specifically for propaganda. Do you hear why they're making that connection?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Is the concern that certain media outlets would become propaganda arms of political ideologies?
[22:35:04]
I mean, don't we already have that in this country at a large scale? I mean, also, I heard what you were saying about X. I saw a survey this week. It's now the most ideologically balanced --
CHAMPION: Oh, come on.
JENNINGS: -- user platform of any platform.
CHAMPION: Scott, stop. Stop. It's too early. I just sat down. I've only been here for two minutes.
JENNINGS: You're going to be embarrassed when I tweet that after the show, but it's true.
CHAMPION: You cannot say that.
CORNISH: Who is the source?
JENNINGS: It's a lot of -- what I find, we've reported it on this network.
CHAMPION: It's not accurate, and you know it.
JENNINGS: OK. I'll let you make your statement. But my point is this.
CORNISH: Can I reframe it a different way? Because the site changed radically, right? So whether you think the voices are somehow more balanced now, that's fine. But no doubt, Musk's influence is profound and that you open it up, and now you're there with his opinion, and he is now part of this administration. So, does anyone else think that there should be this greater concern about billionaires purchasing media companies? JIM GERAGHTY, "NATIONAL REVIEW" SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: OK.
Would you be worried if Bill Gates controlled MSNBC?
CHAMPION: No, because he's sane.
GERAGHTY: Because MS in MSNBC comes from Microsoft. It was a partnership between Microsoft and NBC way back in the 1990s, back when Microsoft was under investigation by Bill Clinton's DOJ for Monopoly. I don't remember anybody panicking over MSNBC back then.
CORNISH: No, they definitely did. But yes, continue. Well, like Fox was launching, MSNBC was launching. The cable news network was shifting. The landscape was shifting.
JENNINGS: But isn't the issue that the left has gotten so used to controlling almost all institutional information distribution arms in this country that when one little piece of it, whether it's X or MSNBC or anything else gets taken away, the panic is so outrageous?
UNKNOWN: No, no, I think --
JENNINGS: I mean, that's how used to the left is, is having control of all of it.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think that that's an accurate assessment when you look at something like Sinclair Broadcasting Group that has purchased most of the local newspapers and local television stations and sends out distributed information that their anchors are supposed to follow for the correspondents. That is a conservative-leaning group.
I think the difference, though, I'm not siding with Elon Musk at all here. The one thing to point out is that platforms are not regulated right now, which gives them car blanche, whatever they want right now. Elon is not someone who likes to be regulated. And so, to buy MSN, he would go under some federal regulations.
GERAGHTY: Who's regulating CNN right now?
UNKNOWN: The FCC?
GERAGHTY: We're not a broadcast. It's cable.
JENNINGS: I mean, I don't really think, I don't really think cable stations are under the same regulatory structure that broadcast is.
ALLISON: It's definitely regulated more than Facebook and Twitter.
CHAMPION: What she's saying is that there's still a litmus test of journalism that you have to pass. You can't come on TV and just make up things and say things. That happens on X. Please don't give me the eyebrow furrow as if you don't know what I'm talking about. It happens often on X.
I can go and say the color is blue, and I will be met with so many disrespectful remarks. No one's regulating the N-word. No one's regulating the criticism. No one is regulating how people are treated.
JENNINGS: How much government regulation of the First Amendment are you for?
CHAMPION: Let me tell you something. If I came on here and I just started calling you all kinds of names, do you think the bosses would let me continue to do that?
JENNINGS: I mean, it happens to me occasionally.
CHAMPION: It doesn't happen to you, but it doesn't happen for me. And I know that I wouldn't be able to do that. There's a level of professionalism in what we do here because we are journalists, and we adhere to something, at least morally. And there is no moral compass on this thing called X.
CORNISH: You're also having a conversation about a person who has the ear of the White House in a very profound way, and you have had the former president, the president-elect, talking about yanking licenses, right, as part of the broader Republican argument.
CHAMPION: If you disagree.
CORNISH: Yes, that there is censorship, and therefore people need to be punished for that censorship. Chuck?
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND FOUNDER, NUESTRO PAC: I was thinking about what ex-former Twitter, the artist formerly known as Twitter, was like before, and to my sister's point is like when before Elon bought it, good and bad, there was a lot of things there. My wife refuses to go on it. She says it's a cesspool, and she's mad that I'm even still on it.
CHAMPION: Accurate.
ROCHA: She's got more sense than I'll ever have, and I'll tell everybody that. But I know when I open up the platform now, the first tweet I see is Elon Musk, no matter if I like it or if I don't like it.
CHAMPION: The very first one.
ROCHA: The very first one all the time.
ALLISON: Whether you follow him or not.
JENNINGS: So?
ALLISON: So--
JENNINGS: He bought it.
ROCHA: You're making my point. Absolutely did. That's what happened on MSNBC. And he don't like me, so I probably won't be on there no more. ALLISON: I also think that Twitter has fake computer-generated
things. It's bots. So, it's a little, like, well, I don't think anybody -- are you real? Like, can I put --are you a hologram of yourself, you know? I didn't touch him, everyone. But like, are you a hologram of yourself?
CORNISH: Part of it is like, I feel like on the one hand, oh, this is really navel-gazey. Should we be talking about it? On the other hand, it was so clear that the movement and shift and tone and ideas of what was happening during the campaigns were very much affected by social media, right? When Kamala Harris entered the race, and it was like TikTok said she was a thing.
CHAMPION: TikTok is literally the source of information for millions of people.
[22:40:02]
And that is very scary and misinformation. And so, if, in fact, someone like Elon Musk had any sort of control over an entity, he's not listening to any rules or regulations. People like that, as you all know.
JENNINGS: You think the TikTok owners are?
CHAMPION: No, it doesn't. Listen to what I'm saying. Elon Musk, if in fact in charge of any actual television station, network, et cetera, he's only going to listen to his own rules. Case in point, every time the first tweet I see is Elon Musk, if I want to go on that place, it's not being regulated.
About two years ago, the last line of defense that they had in terms of their morality was someone who quit because he said that he couldn't control the -- his job was to regulate Twitter. He could not control Elon Musk because Elon Musk didn't want it to be regulated. He wanted it to be the world in which it is right now, which is accessible, as your wife said. She's a brilliant woman.
ROCHA: She is.
CHAMPION: Tell her I said hello.
ROCHA: Thank you, I will.
JENNINGS: I think the impulse to restrict speech is a slippery slope, but a dangerous one.
CHAMPION: Is it? Is it?
JENNINGS: More speech is better.
CHAMPION: Is it really? OK.
ALLISON: But do you think -- you think, so you actually think that X is the place of free speech? Y
JENNINGS: Yes, I mean, I think, I mean, I don't know why you would argue otherwise, is it not?
ALLISON: OK.
JENNINGS: I think before -- I think before he took it over, it was, it was not a great place for conservatives. And now it's a great place for everybody. My view.
CORNISH: OK. Even though we're talking about restricting speech, I'm going to tell you guys to shut up for a second. We're actually going on a break. When we come back, Trump is continuing to fill his cabinet with faces that might be familiar to you, watching TV, including a possible ringing endorsement of someone you might not have expected, unless you were Scott.
CHAMPION: Yes, 100 percent.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:09]
CORNISH: OK, sit back and imagine this being played at a White House event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
("HULK HOGAN THEME SONG" PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK. If you don't know, now you know. WWE legend Hulk Hogan's music. If you think the idea of him being in the administration is far-fetched, well, Mr. America has something to tell you, brother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULK HOGAN, RETIRED WWE WRESTLER: The president said, you know something, Hogan? You'd be great to run the president's council on physical fitness because you're 71. You still got that Trump pump on, brother. And it'd be great if you get all the kids in America in shape. My thing is I'm a beach bum, brother. I love staying on the beach. But you never know. It could happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK. So, Hulk Hogan being in charge of, like, gym class sounds great to me. Like, that's not a stretch. But we wanted to talk about it because it feels like the logical conclusion of these other cabinet picks that are very TV-friendly, so to speak. Or like --
CHAMPION: That's a DEI hire. That's a woke hire. Just so we're clear --
CORNISH: Is it the hair? Shirts? What category is that?
CHAMPION: Yes, it's fully a DEI hire because what exactly is his skill set? Because kids should not be on steroids. CORNISH: Scott, I just learned you're in a protected class.
CHAMPION: Yes. And WWE, is that a real sport? But go ahead. You go.
JENNINGS: Yes, it's a real sport. You ever been to one?
CHAMPION: Many.
JENNINGS: You want to see what these guys do?
CHAMPION: Many.
JENNINGS: It's pretty incredible, actually.
CORNISH: Well, they've gone to the courts to say they're not a real sport.
CHAMPION: But that's OK. But that's beside the point.
CORNISH: It is. Yes. They want to be paid as such.
JENNINGS: But look, you know, I don't know if Hulk Hogan wants a job in the government, but the president's council on physical fitness, what's the job? To promote exercise and activity among school kids.
CORNISH: But my full question was --
JENNINGS: Did Arnold Schwarzenegger do this at one point?
CORNISH: Cabinet picks from behind the desk. I'm not saying you were looking for a job. But obviously, lots of people are looking on TV, and the people they're seeing, whether it be Sean Duffy or Hegseth or whoever, are getting the nod.
JENNINGS: I mean, I think this kind of an appointment is a little, it's a P.R. appointment versus these are other, I just don't see the.
CORNISH: But that is serious, right? I mean, Defense Department.
JENNINGS: Yes. But my point is that these are not equivalent posts.
GERAGHTY: This cabinet is the greatest episode of Celebrity Apprentice ever.
UNKNOWN: Correct.
CORNISH: That's one take.
GERAGHTY: Regarding the position of president's council of physical fitness, past people have included Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lin Swan, Flo Jo, Drew Brees, Lou Ferrigno, Herschel Walker. Lou Ferrigno warned kids about the dangers of gamma radiation. You don't want to get exposed to that stuff, kids.
CHAMPION: Or fluoride.
GERAGHTY: And Mariana Rabano.
CHAMPION: That would be weird.
ROCHA: And for those of you who haven't watched TV in the '70s or '80s like me and Scott, he was also the green man before he was the green man. He was the original green man. The Hulk. Let me get to the point. The other Hulk.
So, for political consultants like me, these kind of things drive me crazy because, you know, people find Hulk -- they grew up with him like I did. His job is going to be some stupid job. It's not the same as the defense secretary. I get that, too.
But it makes me mad that I want to bring the Democratic Party back to being cool. And I grew up thinking Hulk Hogan with all of his steroids was cool. I don't think things he did after wrestling or he did to women in his life was cool. But I enjoyed watching wrestling.
CHAMPION: Or using the N-word.
ROCHA: Right.
CHAMPION: Or using the n-word.
ROCHA: Absolutely.
CHAMPION: Not cool.
ALLISON: I guess I stopped following Hulk Hogan after I turned eight because I didn't hear anything. I did like him when I was nine, though. I mean, it's true. He was a big old guy who could, like, you know make--
GERAGHTY: Throw guys out of the ring.
ALLISON: Right. But, I mean, at some point my mom said this is not appropriate for you to watch. Thank you, mom. I didn't realize he used the N-word, that he was on steroids. I mean, maybe that would make sense why he's a beach bum and he still can do the muscle flex like this.
[22:50:01]
ROCHA: This whole thing makes more sense to you now.
ALLISON: But not --
CORNISH: He's also an extremely consequential figure when it comes to the media, given the lawsuit that he did with Peter Thiel that ended up gutting Gawker. We talked about media companies being destroyed. So, what's your sense of, like, does this mean anything, seeing another person from Thiel's orbit be in the administration?
CHAMPION: You predicted this, Scott.
JENNINGS: I did. Well, I mean, I thought Ron DeSantis should appoint him to replace Marco Rubio.
CHAMPION: You called for him to be a senator, I think. You weren't even doing his gym thing.
ALLISON: That's a more serious job.
JENNINGS: Yes, I mean, I think we could dedicate one percent of the U.S. Senate to Hulk Hogan. I mean, that's probably just fine. Look, he helped Donald Trump. First of all, he helped Donald Trump win.
CORNISH: I think Dana White helped Donald Trump win but, yes.
JENNINGS: And there were no shortage of celebrities, of which Hulk Hogan is one, who took the other side and tried to help Kamala Harris win. And if they wanted to do some appointment, they probably could have gotten an ear on that, too. So, I don't really see the problem.
CORNISH: How would it be received, do you think?
JENNINGS: I mean, if Kamala Harris appointed some singer to the Kennedy Center, it would be fine. And so, there's literally no difference.
CHAMPION: If they could sing, perhaps.
JENNINGS: People get put on these boards. The supporters get put on these boards. This is a perfectly fine thing for him to do if he wants to do it. And there's no scandal here whatsoever, in my opinion.
ALLISON: It's a distraction. I don't know if he's going to be appointed. I do remember when Arnold Schwarzenegger was -- the best part of gym class was that time when you got to do your challenges. You run through the ropes and you do your jack jacks and do your pull- ups, which I never could do.
CORNISH: I have learned how old everyone is at this table.
JENNINGS: Hogan should actually be ambassador to Iran. He beat up the Iron Sheik on multiple occasions.
CHAMPION: Oh, my Lord.
ALLISON: But I think that there are real -- there are real cabinet selections that we're talking about that I will not be distracted from, that actually have real implications on the American people's life. Not that child health and physical fitness is not important, but I'm looking at some of the ones that he has already announced that it's giving me grave concern.
CORNISH: OK, we want you to stay with us because we have one more conversation. We have our night caps, including, if you can believe this, a controversial take on Thanksgiving side dishes. Stay with us.
CHAMPION: Oh, Lord.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:56:53]
CORNISH: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap where I wish we had a drink. To say your piece, and Chuck, you get to start first. Remember, the theme is Thanksgiving sides.
ROCHA: No, I'm going to go with Raslin and I'm going to stay with the Raslin theme. This week, the DNC put out their rules for their DNC chairman. I'm not making any announcements here today. Don't know about that, Scott.
I'm going to say that we should put everybody in the middle of a ring and do the old royal rumble. Whoever gets thrown over the top rope is out and the last person standing can be the chair of the DNC.
JENNINGS: My money's on Chairman Chuck.
CORNISH: I just want to know if you're going to do it. So, now's the time. Yes or no?
ROCHA: Too much. I got to talk to my family.
CORNISH: Jim, you're next.
GERAGHTY: Sure. Thanksgiving side dish variety. If you don't like the Trump administration's cabinet picks, it's like the weather in Chicago. Just wait a while and it's going to change. Because in the first term, Trump had two secretaries of defense, two secretaries of state, two national security advisors. Almost every cabinet position had two.
And we have a whole bunch of people who are experienced from the world of television stepping into administrative jobs where they're going to be fighting bureaucracy day after day. I strongly suspect that half of these people will be burned out and tired by the midterms.
CORNISH: OK, Scott. You want to argue about that one?
JENNINGS: No, I don't.
CORNISH: Your face just was like, fight.
JENNINGS: Well, well, well. How the turntables -- I was reading an article today in "The Washington Examiner" about all the Senate Democrats who have now come out in favor, in favor, finally, of protecting the filibuster rules, which they had just been threatening for the last few years to destroy, all because now Donald Trump is going to be president and the Republicans are going to be in charge of the Senate.
You can read all about this amazing hypocrisy from Dems. It's Republicans, however, who are guarding our norms and traditions of the Senate. They didn't stand for it under Trump the first time. They're going to guard it again this time. I just thought it was interesting to note that Democrats, after trying to toss it, now want to hang on to it. ROCHA: Horrible side. Whatever. It's horrible.
CHAMPION: So, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, like there is a DOGE, right? I think we should have a department of acts of kindness, random acts of kindness. And what I would like, and I'll extend to you, my dear friend, I would like for people from different backgrounds to be friends with different people from different backgrounds, walks of life.
We don't have to talk alike, think alike, be alike, but it would be nice for us to do random acts of kindness in the spirit of Thanksgiving in a world in which we decide we want to be so polarized and be against everyone. Why not come together? Because right now we are in a very tight space in this country. And so, we have to learn to coexist.
ALLISON: Can I say --
CORNISH: This chair coming through.
ALLISON: Can I get time served for being friends with him?
CHAMPION: Absolutely. Switch the mood, Ashley.
ALLISON: That's great. I love that. OK, please don't cancel me, Black Twitter. I think -- I think bread stuffing is better than cornbread stuff.
CHAMPION: Oh, you have to go home.
[23:00:00]
ALLISON: OK, now, I also think as a redeeming factor that canned cranberries are better than homemade.
CHAMPION: Absolutely do.
ALLISON: OK. I will also receive --
CHAMPION: I agree.
ALLISON: -- anyone who wants to do an act of kindness and give me some good cornbread stuffing. I will, too, take that. Happy Thanksgiving.
CORNISH: Hey, those were, in fact, hot takes. Everyone, thank you so much for spending time with us. Thank you for watching "NewsNight". And you can catch more conversation with me and my podcast, "The Assignment". Check us out wherever you download your podcast. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
