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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Hegseth's Future In Doubt As Trump Allies Raise Questions; Trump Team Agrees To Allow FBI Background Checks On Picks; Sources Say, Trump Mulls Replacing Hegseth With Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL), Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA), Or Sen. Bill Hagerty (R-TN) For Pentagon; Trump Vows Vengeance On Hamas The Second He Takes Office; N.Y. City Mayor Eric Adams Expresses Support For Trump's Policies; Billboard Names Beyonce As Number One Pop Star Of The 21st Century. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 03, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, an understanding, the Trump transition agrees to the expected to letting the FBI vet the men and women Trump wants to run your government. But will MAGA senators overlook any red flags?
Plus, the water's edge, Donald Trump stands to inherit a wealth of global problems. But can he bluster his way to a solution that keeps the U.S. out of war?
Also, Eric Adams cozies up to Trump policies.
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D-NEW YORK CITY, NY): Cancel me because I'm going to protect the people of this city.
PHILLIP: Is it about protecting the city or probing for a potential party?
And Battle of the Pop Stars. Billboard is crazy in love with Beyonce. But does Taylor Swift belong at the top of 21st century charts?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Solomon Jones, Leigh McGowan, and Arthur Aidala. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. Pete, Pete Hegseth, to be specific, he's Donald Trump's pick to steer the Pentagon, and he might be in trouble. Tomorrow, he's going to return to his old stomping grounds, Fox News, for an interview that he may need in order to save his would-be job. The Republican senators that he needs in his corner to green light his nomination, several of them are now skeptical.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Some of these articles are very disturbing. He, you know, obviously has a chance to defend himself here, but, you know, some of this stuff is going to be difficult. You know, time will tell.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): As I've repeatedly said to you, I believe that we need an FBI background check to evaluate the allegations. We need to have the normal committee process of questionnaires.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Also, tonight, the Trump transition is agreeing to what every modern transition team has said, which is that background checks will happen for most of the public servants in this country.
But is the pact worth the paper that it's printed on? The Trump team, they've yet to say who or how many names that it'll give to the FBI for vetting.
Joining us now in our fifth seat is CNN Legal Analyst Elliot Williams. Elliot, I'm going to get to you in just a second, but, Scott Jennings, you know the Senate as well as anybody else. When Susan Collins lays down the law and says, I need to see those background checks and we will be having a hearing, what are you hearing there, and also the fact that Lindsey Graham is also there saying that he has concerns?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think for the most sensitive positions, particularly the ones that are in the national security space, it's just not reasonable to expect these people not to go through FBI background checks, the normal vetting process, and then to sit at the table and answer hard questions. I mean, no offense to the Housing and Urban Development Department, but you know defense is not HUD, okay, and neither a secretary of state or neither is these other national security positions. So, they need to be vetted. They need to go through this process.
And the Senate is not -- obviously, there's a group of them, they're not interested in rolling over on the process because -- on these vital positions, and they shouldn't.
Now, Hegseth, I think, has every right to defend himself and should be able to have that chance if this nomination continues. And I'm sure that they'll give him a fair hearing. But it's not reasonable to expect people to not be looked into when they're going to be at such a high level in our national security
PHILLIP: So, what is the looking into going to look like, Elliot?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. And, you know, it's important to step back and look at why FBI background checks exist. Because in the scrum of all this fighting about whether people are qualified for the jobs and so on, that's really not relevant.
Oddly enough, the process is really looking for two things. Number one, someone's finances, believe it or not. Is the person susceptible to being blackmailed or defrauded in some way? And they ask you a lot of questions in the background. I went through it three times for Justice Department and Department Homeland Security. They're checking, do you gamble? Does he live above his means? How does he spend his money? So they check into that.
The other one is foreign ties. And just sort of on a personal level, you know, my late sister was born in Jamaica and spent a lot of her childhood there.
[22:05:03]
And I would get questions on my background checks about ties to foreign nationals, both uncles and aunts, but also my sister, who at least, for part of her life had been a foreign national. They want to make sure that someone just isn't susceptible to being sort of the thumb on the scale from someone overseas.
Now, it's not, to me, having gone through it as many times as I have, not a partisan issue. It's a national security issue. And with all these debates about do we trust the FBI or not, you got to vet the people who are in government. Every ICE agent, every DEA agent, every TSA guy checking your bag goes through a background check, and it should be at the cabinet as well.
PHILLIP: It's a pretty rote process, frankly. I mean, but Pete Hegseth has a lot of problems. And Tim Parlatore, who we know here as his lawyer, has been doing a pretty valiant job not answering questions about them, but that's not really going to go very far once he gets to the Senate confirmation process.
ARTHUR AIDALA, VETERAN NEW YORK TRIAL ATTORNEY: I don't know if it's his problems, as much as his background, his experience, that people raise an eye about Pete. Look, I've worked with him for a little while at Fox. You know, he's a very affable, pretty intelligent, well- educated man. But, you know, if you look at prior secretaries of defense, he does not have that background. But President Trump is putting people in places that don't necessarily have that black background. He's looking to shake things up.
Yes, there are these now these two allegations that the senator referred to that she wants the FBI to look into. And as Elliot just said, they will look into it and put in a report. I believe a nominee withdrew today for the DEA. And it happens, it's not like a Trump thing, it happens under all administrations. So, let's see what happens on the Fox News interview tomorrow.
PHILLIP: You made a good point about, there are a lot of issues with his personal background, but there are also some questions that he's going to get about where he stands on policy. And CNN's K-File looked into some of the things that he's just said publicly about what he thinks the military ought to be doing, and here's just a taste of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are your thoughts about Hagel taking waterboarding off the table? PETE HEGSETH, AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ WAR VETERAN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, it's a mistake, absolutely a mistake.
Question is, do you send in the troops? Do you say, hey, this isn't going to happen anymore? Or do you let Seattle sort of implode on itself?
Donald Trump pardoned a bunch of guys I advocated for in his last couple years in office. They killed the right guys in the wrong way, according to somebody. I'm done with that. Like we need to fight total war against our enemies when we do, and, yes, you don't kill civilians on purpose, but you kill bad guys, all of them. You stack bodies. And when it's over, then you let the dust settle, and you figure out who's ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: What he's talking about there in that last clip is someone who was convicted of war crimes that Trump pardoned, but they were war crimes.
LEIGH MCGOWAN, SOCIAL MEDIA HOST AND CONTENT CREATOR, POLITICSGIRL: Yes. He stabbed a person to death, a teenager to death, and then made his subordinates pose with the dead body against their will. And they called him a criminal, and they said he was out of his mind. And he went to -- you know, he was convicted for war crimes, and Donald Trump pardoned him.
I think the thing is that Trump's talking about things like using the military on American citizens to make blue states behave, and to round up immigrants, and to police his enemies. And it sounds like Pete would be totally down for that.
My husband comes from a military family. My father in law is a huge military hero. I have a lot of faith in our military. I have a lot of respect for our military. I have a lot of respect for Pete's service, but that's not how the military is supposed to be used. I don't want to be bringing back waterboarding. I don't want to be a country that tortures people, especially if we're the kind of country that's going to be using the military against our own citizens. This kind of thing concerns me.
JENNINGS: What do you mean, use against our own citizens?
MCGOWAN: I'm talking about sending --
JENNINGS: You said, blue states behave. What do you mean? What are you talking about?
MCGOWAN: I'm talking about sending the military into blue states to make them behave. Getting Gavin Newsom under control, getting J.B. Pritzker under control.
JENNINGS: What are you talking about? (INAUDIBLE) into the state capitol to commandeer the state government? MCOGWAN: I mean, I hope not, but I'm definitely -- he's definitely talked about that. I don't know why you're acting like you've never heard this before.
PHILLIP: Trump has talked about using the military to suppress, in the Black Lives Matter era, those protests in the street. He -- that's actually --
SOLOMON JONES, AWARD-WINNING COLUMNIST, THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER: I think it's disingenuous to act like we don't know what she's talking about, to act like he hasn't said this. We know what he said. We all heard him say it, and so that's what it is. The military is only as good as the people who are running it. Pete Hegseth has talked about putting things back in place that have not been policy for the United States because they're wrong. And so we have to decide are we going to do what's right or are we going to do what Donald Trump wants us to do when we know that it's wrong?
JENNINGS: Can I just make sure I understand your position, that you believe Donald Trump is going to use the military to set up effectively like coups in state capitols of states that he didn't win?
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PHILLIP: Scott, I think you're taking it a step or two --
JENNINGS: No, she said make blue states behave, and she also said round up immigrants. That's not true. It's deport illegal immigrants.
MCGOWAN: Scott, I don't know why you're acting -- no.
PHILLIP: Okay. Well, hold on. I mean, look, I think you're right. Let's be precise. Trump has wanted to use the military to do things domestically that actually the military is not allowed to do. I think that's the point that she's making.
JENNINGS: Like what?
PHILLIP: Like deport illegal immigrants. That is actually not a function of the military.
JENNINGS: The military can absolutely be used to work with local officials to provide military resources but working with other parts of the federal government and local officials. We already send the National Guard to the border.
MCGOWAN: But you're not against the will of the local officials or the will of the state government. We have a federalist government here.
JENNINGS: Oh, yes, we can.
PHILLIP: And you know as well as I do that the National Guard, when they get sent to the border, when the National Guard gets sent to the border, they're sent for tactical and sometimes just providing material support to the border officials. They're not there rounding up migrants. But Donald Trump has been pretty clear, that's his vision. And people who understand the law around these things say that -- I mean, maybe I should point to the lawyer, we have two lawyers at the table, but, look, it's going to be an issue that's litigated if he tries to do it. There's no question about that.
JONES: The military is not supposed to take up arms against American citizens, period.
JENNINGS: They're not. You keep saying that. This is about illegal immigration. You all keep saying American citizens.
JONES: Well, how do we know whether the people are legal or not? We know after the shot? We know after they die?
JENNINGS: We have 1.6 million people in this country who've already received deportation orders from courts. They are here.
JONES: No. It's always back to illegal immigration with people who support Donald Trump. It's always back to illegal immigration, but that's not the only thing that we're talking about here. We're talking about the American people. We're talking about taking up arms against them with a military that's supposed to be protecting them.
JENNINGS: Sorry, I just -- this is not right. You cannot say Donald Trump is sending the military to round up --
MCGOWAN: We didn't say it. That is what he's saying, Scott.
JONES: That's what he said. That's not what I am saying.
JENNINGS: Totally false.
JONES: He said that.
JENNINGS: Totally false.
JONES: That's what he said.
PHILLIP: Scott, Trump --
JENNINGS: We were in the fever swamps, Abby. I'm sorry.
PHILLIP: What is your dispute here? I'm not even really understanding --
JENNINGS: Because they're saying that he's sending the military to shoot or and/or round up American citizens. Not --
MCGOWAN: We did not say, shoot, Scott.
PHILLIP: I think the issue, Scott --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me ask Elliot here.
JONES: I did say take up arms. Because when you send the army in, that's what they're here for.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Solomon. Elliot, let me just ask you a question here, because I think this is partly what this is about. When we're talking about the use of the military on domestic soil, this is a complicated legal issue.
WILLIAMS: Yes. So, as a general rule, military cannot be used on domestic soil. Now, in the event were a president, as we'll see in South Korea, to declare martial law, and certainly there are circumstances where military force can be used in American soil. But, no, as -- and I think we can all agree that the military has no day- to-day role in American law enforcement, or immigration enforcement, I think.
MCGOWAN: But, Elliot, can I ask you?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
MCGOWAN: The Insurrection Act, which is what Donald Trump wanted to use on January 6th, what he's talked about using numerous times, the Insurrection Act, allows us to remove constitutional protections and use the military on our own citizens, correct?
WILLIAMS: So, I believe the president has made statements that suggest a willingness to use the Insurrection Act in the future.
MCGOWAN: Yes.
AIDALA: Yes, I think we're going a little far afield here. I think, I mean, I think we're giving Pete a bad rap. Like he's -- look, the guy's on television every day for 14 years. God knows if they took everything I've said or every time and spliced them all together what would come out. I don't think anyone's talking about, you know, making blue states red.
Look. I have no problem telling you. Let me tell you, my law office is on 5th Avenue, on 45th Street. When the George Floyd riots were going on, and on Election Day, when all of 5th Avenue was boarded up with plywood, I had tears in my eyes on an American Election Day, that in the middle of Manhattan, we couldn't handle what was going on. God bless the NYPD, they did a spectacular job. But if they picked up the phone and said, listen, we need the guys in Fort Hamilton Army Base to come and just maintain calm, I would have zero problem with that whatsoever.
I think those are the kinds of feelings that the Trump administration is saying, we're going to just make sure law and order is kept in line.
MCGOWAN: Can I ask a question then? Can I ask you a question?
AIDALA: Yes, ma'am.
MCGOWAN: How did you feel then, on January 6th, when all of those people stormed our nation's capital and our president did not call in any sort of armed forces to put that down, to make the people safe, to make the Congress people that were in there trying to certify an election safe? You wanted people on 5th Avenue during the Election Day to make you feel safe, even though you had the --
AIDALA: To make me feel safe?
MCGOWAN: Even though you had the NYPD --
AIDALA: They broke the window of Tiffany's, of the NBA store.
MCGOWAN: Even though you have the NYPD, but you are not asking for the president to have called for any sort of military aid during something like January 6th?
AIDALA: I'll defer to the gentleman, to your right who knows a lot more about this and how -- what Pelosi's role was in that, what the Capitol Police role was in that.
[22:15:04]
MCOGWAN: I'm just talking about the military.
AIDALA: I don't know what the -- if the military needed to be brought in that day, I would've been fine. I would have no problem.
JONES: You said you had tears in your eyes during the George Floyd protest.
AIDALA: Yes.
JONES: Did you have tears in your eyes on January 6th?
AIDALA: Absolutely. Are you kidding me? Everybody was in my office like, oh, yes, absolutely, a thousand percent.
PHILLIP: Last towards you, Elliot, and then we go to a break.
WILLIAMS: No. I think your point's well taken about bringing the military in. But just to clarify one thing. You know, the NYPD can't just pick up the phone and call the military.
AIDALA: No.
WILLIAMS: Well, yes.
AIDALA: The governor's involved. The mayor's involved.
WILLIAMS: Yes, and it's a complicated federal, state.
AIDALA: Yes, yes, I get it. But it was close. It was scary. It was scary.
WILLIAMS: There's no question it was scary.
PHILLIP: All right. Guys, speaking of Pete Hegseth being in jeopardy, we've got breaking news in. Tonight, apparently Trump is already considering backup options, including one of his former rivals, Ron DeSantis. We'll have more on that after the break.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking news coming into CNN right now, the Pete Hegseth nomination is really in serious jeopardy. The Trump transition team is now openly mulling a replacement to head the Pentagon. Three names have surfaced that they're under consideration. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, Senator Joni Ernst and Senator Bill Hagerty.
Also in into CNN, a Senior Trump transition source is telling our own Jake Tapper that tomorrow is going to be make-or-break for the former Fox host. The unnamed official says this of Pete Hegseth, quote, he has not been forthright with the transition team staff and the president-elect and the vice president-elect.
Between the top of the show and now, things have gotten really bad for Pete Hegseth. It's not only the other names, but just the fact that, obviously, all of this stuff in his background came as a surprise to the Trump team.
JENNINGS: Yes. It's never a good position to be in when you say yes to something this massive knowing full well, things are going to come out. You always want to be honest when you're being vetted for that. You just want to be honest and say, if you give me this, here's what's going to happen. And if that didn't happen here, I can see why they were annoyed. It's always good to have a plan B.
My advice to the transition is if you're going to dump him don't dump him and wait, like go ahead and have your plan be ready to go that instant. Don't fire somebody without your backup right away.
PHILLIP: And, I mean, Trump has backups. I mean, he always has somebody --
JENNINGS: You got to get him to say, yes. I mean, he could be mulling this but we don't -- I mean, I don't know if Ron DeSantis wants to be Secretary of Defense, you know?
WILLIAMS: And, you know, for other folks who might have been Senate watchers all along, there were enough Republican senators from day one saying, well, you know, this is our process and let's let the process play out and he will have a chance to answer questions in front of us. What they were leaving out of that was, I'm looking forward to supporting the president's nominee.
There's at least four or five Republican senators, which is far more than they can afford to lose right now, who've expressed a little bit of skepticism about him. It just doesn't look like he's just got the support he needs.
MCGOWAN: But I think that that's great, because I think it's really important that people remember that the Senate is a co-equal branch of the government. Their job is to watch and see and confirm the nominees. They're not just there to rubber stamp it. Their job is to actually look into it, which is why we need the FBI background checks, why we need the hearings.
WILLIAMS: Article 1 of the Constitution, boom, right there. There it is.
PHILLIP: That's the nerdiest thing you've said all day.
MCGOWAN: That's totally up my alley, babe.
PHILLIP: Look, so tomorrow, the reason this is going to be so make-or- break is he's going on back on his home turf. You're a former Fox guy as well. He's going to be on Fox and Friends. He's going with his mom. And the reason he's going with his mom is because his mom wrote an email to him calling him an abuser of women.
Okay, for the audience at home, Arthur is a defense attorney and he's very good at his job. So, tell me, is this the strategy that -- how do you get out of something like this?
AIDALA: Well, first of all, I'm sure there are people a lot smarter than I am around them from public relations people to lawyers, you have to kind of lay it all on the table. His mom's got to give an explanation as to what made her say that.
PHILLIP: Does he deny it or does he acknowledge?
AIDALA: Well, you know, there's an expression we say, you admit what you can't deny, but you deny what you can admit. So, if there's certain things that he cannot deny, like he was a certain place at a certain time, or there's documents and he can't deny it, then he can't deny it. But if there's some things that you could kind of hold back, because people don't know about it, so much of it, Abby, is spur of the moment. It's like that's when you prepare for a witness to go on the stand. You have to prepare them for making those split second decisions. It's the exact same thing when you're on television.
He will be prepped by the top people in the world possibly to prep him for this. And even though he's going to be in a very comfortable environment, he can't be too comfortable. He can't -- he's got to take it as serious. And I'm sure he will. Pete, again, he's a well- educated, smart dude. He's going to take it hard at, but having his mom there is like, think about the secretary of defense is going to have his mom there.
PHILLIP: I mean, bring your mom.
AIDALA: Yes, that's a little --
PHILLIP: That's what amounts to a job --
AIDALA: A little out of the ordinary, I would say.
JENNINGS: Well, it was out of the ordinary for the newspaper to print private correspondence between a mother and a son. But -- PHILLIP: You don't think it was relevant though, Scott?
JENNINGS: I mean, I thought it was pretty outrageous that they print it out. But, yes, I mean, look, relevance is a different question, but --
MCGOWAN: I think it was pretty outrageous when we put Hunter Biden's junk on congressional billboards. That was also outrageous and yet that is sort of the world we're at.
JONES: I think there's a lot of outrageous stuff, but I think it matters whose it is. I think that it's outrageous if it's if it's Hegseth's stuff, but it's not outrageous if it's Hunter Biden's, it's not outrageous if it's Hillary Clinton's, it's not outrageous if it's theirs, but it's outrageous --
[22:25:00]
AIDALA: It's a letter between a mom and a son.
JONES: It's an email. It's an email.
AIDALA: Husband and wife, right? There's the husband-wife privilege.
PHILLIP: I don't see the difference.
AIDALA: There's not a mom-son privilege but --
PHILLIP: I don't see the difference. What is the difference?
AIDALA: Between a husband and a wife and a mom and a son?
PHILLIP: Yes.
AIDALA: Good. So, then -- Elliot, so then it should be, Your Honor, objection.
WILLIAMS: You know, he said it's relevant. Let's go, you know, the definition of relevance under the law, does it prove or disprove a fact that's evidence, right? And, look, it's an open question. This is a central issue that's being debated and resolved.
Now, look, is it icky to publish private correspondence? Perhaps, but you're not entitled to due process in the newspaper.
AIDALA: No. But when you said they're looking at is finances and foreign contacts and you lived it, so you would know, what does this have to do with this?
WILLIAMS: No. This is important to mention. This is not an FBI background check question. This is a public vetting question. It's the kind of thing that's relevant for the Senate and it's --
PHILLIP: But, Elliot, let me -- okay. If he is in fact an abuser of women, don't you think that's a relevant thing even for an FBI background check? Couldn't he be blackmailable? Couldn't he? I mean, he has -- we know he's paid a settlement to one woman.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
PHILLIP: So, that is -- I mean, that's not just like nice to know.
MCGOWAN: But it's not even just blackmailable. He's going to be in charge of well over 200,000 women, right? And he has been told -- he has been allegedly had improper conduct with many women.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
MCGOWAN: So, if you are a woman in the military, first of all, you've been told you shouldn't be in combat. Then if somebody that's -- you're already having trouble with a superior officer, and you've been sexually assaulted, and you know the person at the very top of that food chain has done it himself, or allegedly done it himself, and then has no interest in helping you out, that actually is relevant. It's relevant.
PHILLIP: Yes. Just one more note from Jake's reporting, a senior Trump source says he's meeting with Joni Ernst, by the way, who Trump is considering to replace him. But if she isn't comfortable with Pete, the source says, and he doesn't answer her questions about women in the military and about sexual assault, and she's a survivor, if she doesn't leave the meeting supporting him, five or six Republicans are going to turn on him.
JONES: Well, there's a report that already came out from the organizations that he ran. He ran two veterans organizations, and there was a report that came out, I believe, in 2015, before any of this stuff even came out. You know, a lot of people like to accuse people of coming out, you know, once one story comes out, then the floodgates open.
This precedes all of this with women complaining there, with others complaining there. He was drummed out of both of those organizations in part because of how he treated women.
WILLIAMS: I just -- you know, hold on, you know, this is just an exercise in counting to 50 and, you know, I'm not in the business of making predictions but I just have a hard time seeing how this individual gets confirmed just given the number of Republicans that seem to have an off-ramp. What Joni Ernst is describing there is an off-ramp in giving herself latitude to vote.
JENNINGS: He's always been below the line. I mean, when you're in this situation, I mean, he just needs somebody with credibility on any of these issues to vouch for him. If Ernst comes out and vouches for him after a meeting, that would be something. But, you know, you've had a lot of people piling on him, a few Fox people have come out tonight and vouched for him, saying they've never seen any of this conduct. But he needs a key senator with credibility on these issues to vouch for him today, and I assume that's the purpose of the Ernst meeting.
PHILLIP: Yes. All right, guys, Elliot Williams, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, hang tight for us. Coming up next, how Trump is inheriting a world on fire, as another American ally devolves into chaos.
Plus, is there a high-profile Democrat who is angling for a pardon from the president-elect? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:56]
PHILLIP: Tonight, hell to pay, Donald Trump is vowing vengeance on Hamas the second that he takes office. It's just one of the policy prescriptions the president-elect plans to use to solve one of the many, many, many global crises he'll confront on day one.
South Korea, where martial law was only lifted just hours ago. A civil war in Syria. Israel facing a multi-front war. An access of dictators, Russia and North Korea. A Ukraine war hanging in the balance. And, of course, the hostages still trapped in Gaza.
Joining us in our fifth seat is veteran foreign affairs correspondent Reena Ninan. Rina, before the election, we were talking about Trump trying to appeal to Arab-American voters that he would be someone to at least solve the crisis in Gaza. Now he's saying, I'm prepared to use force, I mean, maybe overwhelming force to solve it. That's not exactly what he was promising, I guess. I don't know.
REENA NINAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think he's made it very clear where he stands. He wants these wars to end, the war in the Middle East, the war in Ukraine. I think there's both opportunity and issues that could be very difficult. I mean, the issues that are difficult, the war hasn't ended yet. It doesn't seem like it is at any moment, but who knows at this point?
But there's also opportunity because in his last administration. He really was able to strengthen the ties with Gulf countries in a way that I know many people don't want to give him that win.
But you talk to people in the business community, like trade between the United Arab Emirates and Israel continued, and in fact grew in some cases during this war. So, he's got some wins there on the scoreboard in the Middle East.
And the idea of threats from Trump, a lot of people on the left kind of dismiss that. But you do have to ask the question whether that is the strategy here, that he's putting his foot down and saying, there's going to be hell to pay, and maybe that might get results without him actually having to do anything.
JENNINGS: Yes, thank God we have a president-elect who's willing to say it. We've had Americans held hostage since October the 7th, and we've lacked a president that had the testicular fortitude to get our people back.
[22:35:03] This is outrageous that these Americans were taken and murdered and we've basically stood back and given lip service to both sides, this and that, I want to hear. It's wrong. And this is the -- this is the wages of weakness of a weak president. All those things you just listed, it's because we have a weak America. And now we're going to have a strong America.
And I think Donald Trump's going to have far better success. We had world at peace when he was president. We had a peace agreement in the Middle East. But when you take Americans hostage and you murder Americans, you better damn well know the President of the United States is going to do something about it and we've not known that for four years.
JONES: Well, I think Netanyahu did -- did a whole lot about it and killed a whole lot of civilians. And so, the question is, if you just go in with guns blazing and you still have --
AIDALA: That was only -- that was only after --
JONES: Wait a minute. If you go in with guns blazing now and there are hostages still there, do you kill those hostages? Like -- or do you do something more strategic? I'm not saying leave them, I'm saying that it seems like it's just no plan.
PHILLIP: I guess the thing is, we don't really know even what he's talking about, because you're suggesting, Scott, that the United States will play a role in this. I don't know. I mean, I think that would be a pretty unprecedented step for the U.S. to actually be involved on the ground in resolving this crisis.
NINAN: I think there's got to be a hitting of the reset button on this. Like, there's no question about it. There has to be something that comes from it. And what does Netanyahu do at this point? If he's unhappy with what President Trump is serving, does he walk away? Who does he turn to at this point? So, I think that is a big calculus that changes with this administration.
MCGOWAN: Can I ask a question, though? I am not by any means a Middle East expert or an international expert, but Trump has said he's going to stop all the wars, right? And the only way I can see the wars stopping is if you give one side everything they want.
If you say to Israel, finish the job, as Trump was saying, I'm going to let Israel finish the job, which means decimating what the area is known as Palestine. I'm going to let Russia have Ukraine. Then that war will be over because Russia will have got what they want and they will no longer be fighting over it.
So, that's what concerns me, is that this idea of stop helping Ukraine, getting out of NATO, you know, what might happen to the Middle East. Is that something that we should be concerned about? Because of course you could stop a war if you say, you win, Russia, or you win, Israel.
That's problematic. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be -- you were talking about both sides of things and I think there is both sides. There is a Ukrainian side and a Russian side. There is, in the Middle East, there's --
JENNINGS: In a war, there are good guys and bad guys, and we need a president who can tell the difference. And I'm not certain we've had that, and we will not.
AIDALA: And also, though, here's the X factor with Donald Trump. He's been -- he hasn't been a lifetime politician. He's been a lifetime negotiator. He wrote the Bible, right? The art of the deal, and how to negotiate, and how --
MCGOWAN: No, he didn't write it.
AIDALA: Well, OK, but those were his ideas, OK? And in a great negotiation, both sides are unhappy. And right now, there's not a human being on the planet that's got more street cred than Donald Trump. This country tried to kill him with four different cases. He was convicted of 34 counts.
Nothing's going to happen to him. He has just survived, personally, the greatest onslaught to him and his family -- oh, those are criminal cases. There's also the civil cases where they went after his family. He survived all of that.
When he walks into a room, he now has respect that there's, like, not another person who could look in the mirror and say, I just survived four criminal cases, two civil cases, and I won the presidency of the United States of America.
So, you want to mess with me, Netanyahu? You want to mess with me, Zelenskyy? You better know that something else is coming.
PHILLIP: Can I ask a question?
MCGOWAN: Why would Zelenskyy be messing with him? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, Zelenskyy's country was attacked.
PHILLIP: Well, can I ask a question? Where -- where's President Biden?
JENNINGS: Great question.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
JENNINGS: Great question.
PHILLIP: I mean, I know, like, physically, he is on the continent of Africa. But where is he? And let me just play -- he was asked about South Korea today by reporters while he's traveling. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, anything on South Korea martial law?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (D) I'm just getting briefed on it. I'm just getting briefed. I haven't heard anything.
UNKNOWN: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And that was after his team put out a --
JENNINGS: We have not had a functioning president for months, maybe years and we know the White House lied and covered up about his abilities and his condition. Who is running this country? Who is on top of this stuff?
That's one of the core reasons that Donald Trump won the election, because the American people got the idea. We had no functioning presidency and we've been lied to about it.
JONES: No, I think that Donald Trump won the election because he had a social media platform that could tell lies over and over again for four years. I think he won because he had Elon Musk with billions of dollars. I think he won because --
JENNINGS: Harris had more money than Trump.
JONES: -- he had people believing a lie, that he actually won the last election, that he actually admitted in an interview that he lost. And so, we know why he won. The question is, what are we going to do going forward?
[22:40:00]
I think that Joe Biden, overall, has done a good job. But I think now we're in this odd place where you have Trump really usurping his authority at this point and Joe Biden kind of stepping back and kind of allowing it to happen.
PHILLIP: It's not unusual, Reena. You know this. For the lame duck presidents, they have to kind of play that game, but he's still the president right now.
NINAN: Yes, I mean --
PHILLIP: And there's a lot going on in the world.
NINAN: You know, I remember George W. Bush at the final year as Obama. Everyone was trying to push for some sort of Middle East effort and working all the way through. But here's the reality that I think might surprise many, many Americans and many people around the world.
I think there is far greater coordination between the Biden administration and the Trump transition team than most people understand or want to actually give the benefit of the doubt to.
And we all thought this was going to be a civil war. I think if you took the odds of this, we thought that this was going to be fought in the Supreme Court. That's where everyone thought we were headed. I remember when Clinton left and George W. Bush took over, there was a
report that they had removed the W's off the keyboards in the White House. Like they were so angry, you know, whether this is true or not.
But, you know, I think that animosity, when President Biden said to Trump, we're here to help you. I'm hearing indications that there is on foreign policy coordination more than most people would think.
PHILLIP: Yes, but I mean, and I think that that's exactly right. First of all, on the national security front, usually that is the case. But it has been so notable that the president has not been out front speaking to the American public about any number of things domestic and foreign.
Reena, great to have you here always. Thank you for being here. Everyone else, stick around for us. A very New York moment from Gotham's mayor tonight. Eric Adams daring his party to cancel him. We'll tell you why.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(22:46:11)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Eric Adams is holding hands with Donald Trump, or at least Trump's policies. The New York City mayor, who is a Democrat, is promising now to work with the incoming administration on the issue of immigration. And he dared the left to come after him for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC ADAMS, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: We should -- we all should be angry at what happened to our city under this administration. President Trump is the president-elect, and whomever he chooses to run his agencies, I'm looking forward to sitting down and seeing how we better New York.
Those who are here committing crimes, robberies, shooting at police officers, raping innocent people have been a harm to our country. I want to sit down and hear the plan on how we're going to address them. In the era of cancel culture, no one's afraid to be honest about the truth. Well, cancel me, because I'm going to protect the people of this city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, Arthur is here. Arthur represents one of Eric Adams' closest aides. You also count the mayor as a friend. So, we'll disclose that. But I do want to, and I should say this aide is a witness in the investigation around him.
But this is Eric Adams very clearly taking a page out of Donald Trump's book, maybe borrowing -- he's kind of taking some of the shine from Donald Trump and trying to use it for his own purposes, is the point to get a pardon at the end of the day?
AIDALA: Well, he's actually asked the question in that news conference and he said, I've been saying this for years now. Here's, look, here's Eric's position. Initially, I think he felt bad for a lot of these migrants, especially, my office is one block away from Ground Zero, the Roosevelt Hotel.
There's a lot of women there with little kids, and he felt really bad for them. But as they kept coming and kept coming and kept coming, and he wasn't getting any help from the federal government, like Zilch, Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, and obviously the White House. He was getting minimal help. And finally, he realized, OK, OK, it's one thing to be nice.
It's one thing now you're overwhelming my city. And then he started pushing back. I can't take him anymore. Now we got to get him out. Then you got migrants starting to beat up cops in Times Square. Then you got migrants committing like real crimes against the citizens of the city of New York. And he's saying, no, no, no, that's --
PHILLIP: Not to diminish those issues.
AIDALA: -- even say that for a long time.
PHILLIP: But I think the real question here is not so much about immigration, but about whether this turn has been toward Trump for a very specific purpose. He's being prosecuted by the Southern District of New York. And that prosecutor actually has already resigned. Trump is going to be in a position to potentially help him out in more ways than one.
ELLIOTT WILLIAMS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's an easy narrative to say, well, the prosecutors that came after the President of the United States are also coming after me in a similar witch hunt. Now, to be clear, President Trump was not prosecuted by the Southern District of New York federal prosecutors. He was prosecuted by the Manhattan D.A.'s office.
AIDALA: He was investigated by the Southern District of New York. He was investigated and then they passed on it because they thought it was a garbage case. And then the Manhattan D.A.'s office picked up on it. '
PHILLIP: All right, granted, granted. Continue.
WILLIAMS: President Trump was not prosecuted by the Manhattan D.A.'s office.
AIDALA: Yes, he was.
WILLIAMS: By the U.S. Attorney's Office. Pardon me.
PHILLIP: Yes. Go ahead.
WILLIAMS: President Mayor Adams is being investigated by the federal prosecutors. He will have a chance to have his day in court. The allegations are troubling, to say the least. And -- but it's an easy narrative for him to be able to say that they targeted President Trump and they targeted me. Now, you know, can we get in his head and say that he's trying to
curry favor for a pardon? Who knows? But I do think it's an easy narrative to try to yoke himself to the president.
JENNINGS: I wouldn't -- I wouldn't poo poo this illegal immigration issue.
[22:50:00]
WILLIAMS: Yes.
JENNINGS: I think people are very upset about it.
PHILLIPS: I'm not. I'm not. Just to be clear, we're not. I'm not doing that. I was just saying that the issue for Eric Adams that is very important is his legal fate.
JENNINGS: But his most serious governing issue is that there are 700 and roughly 760,000 illegal immigrants living in New York City and almost 60,000 of them have criminal charges or are convicted criminals.
If I were the mayor of New York City, whether I had my own personal political problems or not, I would be desperate to work with the president United States to clean up what's going on.
Earlier this year, there was a police report that three quarters of the people being arrested in Midtown were -- for violent crimes and attacks on the street-- were illegal immigrants. This is a local governance problem.
My assumption is -- I don't live here, I'm here a lot that the people of New York City are hopping mad about it. And whether Eric Adams is using this to get political favor with Trump, I don't know. But my God, you're the mayor. Somebody needs to do something.
WILLIAMS: But I mean, you're conflating a policy issue with the law enforcement plan, right? And I think it's -- it's entirely a valid point to say that even in a blue city, immigration is about -- I worked at ICE for five years, you know.
JENNINGS: I know.
WILLIAMS: Oh, you know very well. And so, you know, I can tell you all about this. And sort of this question of partnership between blue cities and the federal government is a very complicated one. That does not change the fact that he's been charged with very serious crimes and suddenly seems to be yoking.
AIDALA: No, no. But it's not suddenly. That's the difference. He was elected as the law and order mayor. He was -- there's five candidates. He was the law and order guy. So, he's being consistent with being the law and order mayor. So, he's not saying something -- he is being consistent.
PHILLIP: Hold on, everyone. Let me let Leigh get the last word. MCGOWAN: No, that's fine.
PHILLIP: We got to go.
MCGOWAN: I would just say I think there's a reason. I think the question we're asking here is, is he yoking himself to Trump for a reason? And I think he is. And you can tell because he's using the anti-left language. He's talking about, you know, come at me, cancel me, this kind of thing, which is what we say to people on the left.
So, he is definitely currying favor with the president by using this kind of language, because we can't pretend being indicted for a crime is somehow cancel culture, right? We can't pretend that if you have actually done witness tampering or bribery or destroying evidence or all these things that he's allegedly accused of, that that is somehow a left attack on you.
And he's using the language that Trump likes to use about wokeness and cancel culture and this kind of thing to curry favor because Eric Adams is looking out for Eric Adams. And I understand that, but he needs a pardon and he's kissing the ring.
JONES: He is stop-and-frisk mayor, though. I mean, that's who he is.
PHILLIP: Guys, hang on. We do have to go. I just want to note that Donald Trump has listened and he also thinks that Eric Adams is being prosecuted like he is. So, we'll continue this discussion. It's not going anywhere.
Coming up next, we have a hot debate ahead. Billboard has named Beyonce as the greatest pop star of the 21st century. But does the panel agree?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEYONCE PERFORMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(22:57:40)
PHILLIP: Normally, we would do the "NewsNight" cap, but tonight we are trying something a little bit different. Two musicians enter the room and only one leaves. Billboard made its choice for number one pop star of the 21st century. And guess what? They picked the queen, Beyonce. Number two on the list was Taylor Swift. The question is, did they get it right?
JONES: Absolutely, they got it right because Beyonce has staying power. Beyonce has been around for so many years and has done so many different things that it's hard to count. She's got 32 Grammys. She's got 88 Grammy nominations. She sold 200 million albums. She's made movies, right?
And so, she is somebody who has staying power not only as an artist but I think as-- as just a presence, a pop presence. And -- PHILLIP: Anyone taking up for Taylor?
JONES: -- Taylor Swift doesn't have that.
MCGOWAN: I mean, listen, I don't sit in any of these. My initial thought was, cool, of the top five, four of them are women. My initial thought was, what do you mean of the 21st century?
PHILLIP: Oh sure, that part is kind of rough.
MCGOWAN: We have 75 more years of the 21st century. What are we talking about? It's going to be like an alien or like an A.I. by the time we're done with this century.
AIDALA: How old was Taylor Swift in 2000?
MCGOWAN: But if we're talking about staying power, Taylor Swift has been around for a long time. I just said Taylor Swift has been around for a long time too. She started at 15 years old and she writes all her own music. It is her own story, it is her own. She puts out albums that are complete tales of things.
And I think Beyonce does that, too. I mean, I thought Lemonade was amazing. It was a real story that we were choking on. I think those two could have sat like this and I would have been perfectly fine.
WILLIAMS: It's like the Mount Rushmore of the Queens.
MCGOWAN: Yes, yes.
WILLIAMS: And I think Taylor Swift is generational talent but Beyonce's got more Grammys by a factor of two. She's been a solo and group career artist and sort of just a longer tenure on the national stage.
MCGOWAN: And the genre.
PHILLIP: I think the thing about Beyonce is that she transcends genre, she transcends race, she transcends gender. I mean, you'd be hard- pressed to find somebody who wouldn't either know a Beyonce song or sing it or dance along.
AIDALA: Why am I so surprised that J-Lo's not in the top 25?
PHILLIP: I don't know.
AIDALA: Seriously, over the last 25 years? Don't you think J-Lo, between movies and songs -
WILLIAMS: It's a really important point, this transcending genre point. The biggest stars. Usher was only 11 or 12 and, you know, despite all the music he's put out, all the producing he's done across genres.
[23:00:00]
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Scott, Scott. You got 30 seconds.
JENNINGS: Well, I got, I looked at -- there's 25 names and I just -- my criteria is who would I want to be trapped on a desert island with? There's no question. I don't agree with virtually anything you say except Beyonce.
JONES: OK. All right.
JENNINGS: We have common ground. There's no question.
PHILLIP: I think I rest my case because if everybody at this table can agree then we're done. Everyone, thank you very much. And thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
