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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

CEO Murder Suspect Lashes Out, Fights Extradition To New York; CEO Panic, Companies On Alert Amid Anti-Corporation Backlash; Daniel Penny Speaks Out For First Time After Acquittal; "NewsNight" Tackles Pete Hegseth Nomination; Postmaster General Louis DeJoy Grilled About Postal Service's Efficiency; Caitlin Clark Talks About White Privilege In Women's Basketball. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 10, 2024 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, panic at the C suite. Backlash at corporate America runs wild as corners of the country turn the suspected CEO killer into a folk hero.

Plus, Daniel Penny gives his first interview since his jury acquittal. Conservatives say he's the real hero for fighting back against crime.

Also, senators who threaten to go their own way on Trump cabinet choices now seem to be singing the same tune as their MAGA colleagues.

Live at the table, Cari Champion, Scott Jennings, John Avlon, Madison Gessioto, and Geraldo Rivera. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH (on camera): Good evening. I'm Audie Cornish in for Abby Philip.

We're going to get right to what America is talking about, American manifesto. Tonight, Luigi Mangione fights the state of New York's attempts at extradition. The state wants him to stand trial for allegedly gunning down a CEO in Midtown Manhattan.

But the law and order of this episode is only part of the story. The other part is about American anger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUIGI MANGIONE, UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO MURDER SUSPECT: It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: That soon to be defendant shouting and echoing the same kind of populism that's fueled a revolt in our politics, but is it stoking something else here?

Meanwhile, the everything store has made sure you cannot buy these merchandise with deny, defend, or depose stamped on it. Those three words found on the shell casings at the scene of the murder of UnitedHealthcare Executive Brian Thompson. Meanwhile, the book, Delay, Deny, Defund, about how insurance companies use their own systems to not pay out your medical procedures, well, that's number two on Amazon's bestseller list.

And the shooter has a very online cult of personality. In New York, a lookalike contest, in Pennsylvania, where he was apprehended, the McDonald's that alerted the cops, now getting review bombed on Yelp and on Google, including this now deleted post that is anything but subtle. Location has rats in the kitchen that will make you sick and your insurance isn't going to cover it.

So, we want to talk today about what this online praise of this particular suspect says about what's going on in our political culture. And that's why I want to bring it here to the table.

We started the show talking using the word, American manifesto. We did that because of his reported commenting on Ted Kaczynski's manifesto in Goodreads, as people were kind of going down the rabbit hole in the cesspit. And I want to come to our guest, Geraldo Rivera.

GERALDO RIVERA, JOURNALIST: Hi, Audie.

CORNISH: Hi. Welcome to the show.

RIVERA: Thank you, delighted to be here.

CORNISH: I think you've covered like a lot of stories where there is a shooter who leaves behind a document because they want to publicize whatever it is the thing that they are using as their justification. What do you make of what we're hearing out of this so far?

RIVERA: It's kind of dime store, you know, sociology, the kid living out of fantasy. He's a legend in his own mind. You know, there's the real world consequence, however, when someone gets killed. So, suddenly -- you know, it's funny. I think of Luigi as a throwback to when I was in law school in the 60s. You go to Columbia University campus they were seizing it, they were issuing manifestos, they were going after the man, even in some of them, some cases, violence. But then the 80s and 90s happened and all the kids wanted to be CEOs, like Brian Thompson. They wanted to be in big companies where they make a lot of dough. They live, you know, big and strong.

Luigi seems you know, befuddled in a way. What's he angry at? What was that statement all about, a lived experience? What kind of, you know --

CORNISH: I want to bring you guys in. But, first, for a bit of context, Bill Burr, the comedian, on a podcast talking openly about the shooting and what the reported motive is, and I'm playing this because obviously big mainstream voice here offering this point of view. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BURR, COMEDIAN: I was sitting there reading an article with a guy, like, oh my God, he's such a great guy. He had, you know, wife and kids, and he's such a great guy, and then you find out he and the other guys he's working for are getting sued for $121 million for dumping a stock and not letting the other people know. It's like, there's your motive.

What is more heartless than a (BLEEP) CEO of a corporation? The decision in healthcare, the decisions that they make, this is the thing, I'm not saying what happened should have happened, but I'm just -- for them to be like, oh, this is like why would anybody want to do this?

[22:05:00]

It's like they're denying claims and people are dying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, this is very common kind of armchair analysis. John, your eyebrow is like up to here. I mean, you can't tell me you haven't heard something like this in the last couple of days.

JOHN AVLON, FORMER CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No, look, I mean, there's plenty of anger and frustration insurance companies, but do not lionize murderers or elevate psychotic screeds into a manifesto. This is insane. I don't make a folk hero out of this cat. He assassinated a CEO going to a thing. And you've got a problem with the way insurance companies do business, there are a lot of righteous ways to handle it within the legal structure. But I think we're playing a little bit footsie with elevating this cat and he doesn't deserve it.

CORNISH: Do you think he's being -- but he's not being elevated by any particular thing. It's like the general internet. There's no one voice you can point to saying you're the one who's turned him into a hero.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, there's plenty there's plenty of voices. You can go on the internet right now and find all manner of people who are lionizing this person or fetishizing him sexually or so on and so forth.

CORNISH: But, I mean, mainstream media, like I don't think the mainstream media is doing erotic fan fiction of this guy, like that is a thing that's happening.

JENNINGS: Well, somebody who was trusted by the mainstream media just as soon as a few months ago, Taylor Lorenz was out there saying she felt joy when she heard about this.

I mean, I agree with John. I think there's a culture in the United States right now that just doesn't -- you know, there's no respect for laws. There's no respect for life. There's no respect for our cultural norms. And people believe that they should be able to take matters into their own hands. It's pretty ugly. CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it works on all ways. I think it works on both sides. I think it works in this country in general. You said before we even got into this conversation, the internet is consistent. It's consistent with people who have things to say but really have nothing to say. And their opinions really don't matter.

I think something's really interesting about -- not even interesting. Did anybody see that movie, The Rainmaker? Did you guys ever see that movie, back in the day, 1997?

CORNISH: Sort of lawyer, hero lawyer --

CHAMPION: Yes, John Grisham. And it was not necessarily similar to this, but the lawyer was Matt Damon, and he was suing a big insurance company because they kept denying a claim. And in this particular case, the young kid died, and he had cancer, but his mom kept trying to fight the big insurance company, and they won in the end.

And I heard you earlier today say, just a moment ago say, there are ways to go about this. For people who feel frustrated, and I'm not excusing Luigi at all, but I don't know if anyone feels like there are any legal ways to go about it. And I'm still unclear on what his actual motive is. He comes from this wealthy family. He had a back issue. We're hearing all of these different issues, and I'm like, what was he really trying to do and say? Not that we need to try to understand that.

AVLON: That's my point. We're trying to --

CHAMPION: Where are we at with him? What's going on with him? Who is he really? He's 26 years old. He graduated from an Ivy League college. His family has money. What exactly was his real motive? And I don't want to make it seem like we are trying to lionize him as a hero.

AVLON: See, I think that's kind of what we're walking up towards here though, right? We're trying to say, you know, what was really the motive behind this? Sometimes it's just, you know, crazy is as crazy does, but with a gun, it gets worse.

But, you know, there are right ways. There -- we got a lot of issues in our country around corporations that don't seem to care about the little guy. We got a lot of issues with income inequality, but they're not solved by people writing manifestos, using a gun to murder a private citizen, and then all of a sudden people trying to get inside their head and figure out what the noble motive is or what particular threat he's pulling on the Unabomber's manifesto to make a consistent case against capitalism.

MADISON GESIOTTO, FORMER RNC NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON: There's never an excuse for what he did, period. And I think when you see people online and in the media defending what he did as a result of their sentiment about large corporations, as a result of how they feel about the healthcare industry as a whole, I think that's a major problem. But it's not something that just started today. We've been seeing this go on, I think, for a very, very long time. And it's not the first time. And I'm sure Geraldo can speak to this looking back to some of the cases from a decade or more ago when we see people praise murderers, people like Jody Arias, where they look at these murders, they create fan clubs for them. And we're starting to see that already with Luigi Mangione being a physically attractive young man. And you see these women on TikTok and other places that are praising him because of what he looks like. And a lot of young women are posting that.

RIVERA: That's reasonable, I think, you want to dig the guy's six pack, that's fine. But you fall into a trap when you get it to the substance of his beef.

AVLON: That's it.

RIVERA: Now, he's succeeded. Now, he's pulled us in. Now, the focus is not on Luigi. It's on Thompson. It's on the victim and what the victim does, and what the victim has done, you know, with the deny and defund.

JENNINGS: Do you think they should release this manifesto?

RIVERA: Yes, I don't mind.

JENNINGS: Because some of the other shootings we've had in this country and other places, we still don't know anything about the person who shot at Trump. We still don't know much about the person who committed that atrocity at the Christian school in Nashville. There's a lot of shootings.

[22:10:00]

GESIOTTO: The Las Vegas mass shooting (INAUDIBLE) we know nothing about.

JENNINGS: There's a lot of things are hidden from us. And then this guy, Geraldo, shoots, and we know more in five minutes about him than we know about all these other people, and I wonder why that is.

RIVERA: But the manifesto, remember, was released before we had the perpetrator. So, you have the manifesto, that's how they got the Unabomber. The brother reads the manifesto, recognizes the brother's style of, you know (INAUDIBLE).

AVLON: But there's a protocol, Geraldo.

CORNISH: Hold on one second. Let me jump in here. I'm really glad you brought that up, because David Kaczynski has been quoted. Someone reached out to him to say, how do you feel about this idea that he's alluding to your brother, your late brother's comments, and he basically said, it gives me a great deal of personal pain to think my brother's actions have in any way contributed to influencing a man like this to kill an innocent human being.

I bring this up because I can't think of anything with kind of a longer legacy entail on the dark corners of the internet than the Unabomber's manifesto, which many shooters across various political ideologies have cited or are in that world who still quote from it and still read it.

AVLON: But that's -- no. I mean, there are people who take dark inspiration from Columbine. Look, generally, there's a protocol around mass shootings, right? We don't -- often, we just call them the shooter. Second of all, we don't publish the manifesto for reasons of elevation.

Now, if manifestos are outlined, particularly in some mass shootings where there's something that's already out there, then, you know, yes, you can read it, but you don't elevate it. You don't --

CORNISH: But Scott just made a point where he said, how come there's ones we don't know? And he said it with this like kind of question mark, right?

AVLON: Usually it's whether --

(CROSSTALKS)

CHAMPION: But there are things about this story that feel very auspicious and so people are attracted to it. I'm not saying that it's the media's fault. That's so easy. But everyone started, oh, wait, who was this guy? Is he attractive? He pulled down his mask. Everyone, there were all these little breadcrumbs and it makes it feel like we're elevating this guy, but we're not.

This isn't a typical, and I don't want to say a typical shooting, I don't want to say anything like that, but this story, for whatever reasons, hit home for a lot of people, for better or for worse. We're not suggesting that this guy is great for what he did, but it just did. My best friend tells a story about when her father got dementia at the top of COVID, she had to literally fight tooth and nail day and night for weeks so that they would not deny his claim. So, she's interested in it. People are interested because this is something that is happening.

Not excusing it. It has nothing to do with the assassination. We're not giving him substance, but we are talking about something that people are interested in. And if you can't deny, you can't deny that healthcare is an issue in this country.

AVLON: I'm not denying that at all. I'm just saying that we're walking right up the line.

GESIOTTO: Yes. I think it's very difficult for people to start talking so heavily about healthcare now when two weeks ago, nobody was doing that or most people in the media weren't doing that. And so it feels a little bit difficult --

RIVERA: Because Luigi has succeeded.

GESIOTTO: Exactly.

AVLON: Well, stop calling him Luigi, the shooter, right? You know, I mean, I apologize to your respect, but, I mean, like, look, we should be talking. People are pissed off --

RIVERA: I just love saying Luigi.

AVLON: And who doesn't, in fairness, But people are -- you know, people are really frustrated at the cost of insurance and how it adds to the affordability crisis in their daily lives. That's something we should be talking about. We can talk about --

GESIOTTO: Murder to be talking about it. And that's the problem I have right now.

AVLON: Yes. And we certainly shouldn't talk them as a vehicle for a larger civic conversation. He's a murderer.

RIVERA: But also the fact that he had this background, this prep school, valedictorian, University of Pennsylvania, kid had everything in life, the radio stations his family owned and the other businesses they ran. So, if that kid goes aberrant, who can you trust?

CORNISH: That's a very good question.

GESIOTTO: And there's a very interesting points on the timeline as well, because he had been supposedly missing from his family and everybody who knew him for over six months, but just a few weeks ago, his mom reports him officially missing to the police in San Francisco. So, I think that'll be something to keep an eye on.

CORNISH: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. I think it'll be a point of conversation, as we've talked about shootings, young male shooters, when people go kind of missing from their lives, a lot of question marks can come up.

RIVERA: I have a question.

CORNISH: Yes?

RIVERA: How many parents would see their child in those same surveillance pictures that they took of the shooter and not recognize the child? So the Unabomber where I said earlier, got caught because the brother recognized the handwriting, the style, the philosophical and political style of his brother. How is it that Luigi was missing all this time and no one thought that maybe this person that they're looking looks vaguely familiar? Oh, look at those eyebrows. Look at that nose. Oh, look at that smile. That's a flirty smile and so forth. How is it that Luigi's real life parents and friends and roommates. and is it true that they had no inkling, whatsoever, that this could be someone they knew?

CORNISH: Well, I think we're going to -- we will hear more about the investigation about how this thing came together. So, I think this is one of the many questions that will be asked.

I want to say one more thing before we leave, which is this poll about six and ten adults in the U.S. talking about basically having problems with their health insurance in the last year, like surprise bills or being turned away for services. [22:15:12]

You guys stick around.

Next, the former Marine acquitted in the chokehold death of a mentally disturbed man, he's now speaking out for the first time and we want you to hear who he has a message for.

Plus, is the MAGA pressure campaign against senators over Donald Trump's cabinet picks working? Hear the change of tune.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CORNISH: Tonight, he would do everything just the same.

[22:20:01]

In his first interview, since a jury acquitted him of charges in the chokehold death of a subway rider, Daniel Penny says he doesn't care about all the name calling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL PENNY, ACQUITTED IN NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY CHOKEHOLD DEATH: I'm not a confrontational person. I don't really extend myself. I think this type of thing is very uncomfortable. All this attention and limelight is very uncomfortable and I would prefer without it. I didn't want any type of attention or praise or -- and I still don't.

The guilt I would have felt if someone did get hurt, if he did do what he was threatening to do, I would never be able to live with myself. And I'll take a million court appearances and people calling me names and people hating me just to keep one of those people from getting hurt or killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Okay. You guys, I actually want to play one more clip for you to give you a reference point for what he's talking about. And this is on The View where Whoopi Goldberg was sort of calling out Daniel Penny for going to a bar and having a drink after his acquittal by the jury. And here's a sense of how this is playing out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST, THE VIEW: I don't know that seeing them celebrating in a bar. Made me comfortable, you know? I mean, you killed a guy. The man is dead and maybe you just -- you take the celebration home.

People are conflicted because he was an ill man and the more information we're learning about him now turns out his mom had been murdered. And that may have been what set him off on his mental path.

There's failure all over here. There's failure of the system, failure of -- I'm sorry, failure of on the part of the courts, failure on the part of the hospitals and failure on our part and how we deal with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, I wanted to play that so that you have kind of a 360 view, right, of what Penny is talking about. Madison, I want to start with you. A lot of people agree with what the jury decided. But what do you make of that kind of conflicted feeling about the aftermath, how people talk about it?

GESIOTTO: Yes, I'm going to be honest, you spend well over a year of your life going through this process, being a criminal defendant, when you simply tried to stand up for people around you, protect yourself and others. I mean, you hear him talk in the interview, and he speaks about, you know, I was sitting there, he said, I was scared for myself, but I saw women, I saw children, I had to do something, and him and the other man may have saved lives that day, and we may never know. We will never know what could have happened.

But when someone's threatening to kill people, they're acting erratic, people are very scared. There's no footage from before. Obviously, he was restrained because of the fact of what was going on. He speaks to that in the interview as well. And so I think going and having a beer with your attorneys after I don't think there's a problem with that.

I mean, I'm a mother of two very young children. If I was on the train that day and that was going on, I would hope someone like Daniel Penny would be there.

CHAMPION: I don't think anybody is uncomfortable with -- let me tell you, I take the train every so often, but it's scary. And I know that I've heard people say when you take the train, prepare yourself, be protected. You don't know what's going to happen.

Speaking to Whoopi's point of whether or not he had a drink, don't be distracted. Here's the issue. I don't want to talk about this as if it's left or if it's right, and the left is celebrating or the right is celebrating and the left isn't. The problem is it's a failure on everyone's part. She wasn't wrong in that, to me, in my opinion. I feel like you can't try to talk about making America great again when we have people walking on the subway and sitting in the subway in New York City, Well, I have been told several times, if you don't pay attention, someone will really attack you. That's the first thing I was told when I moved here.

If that's just a rite of passage, of being a citizen of New York City, it's crazy, one second. And the reality is that it's true. I hear grown men talk to me about how they have to protect themselves when they're on the subway, and how they have to avoid trouble. Say what you want. I think at the end of the day, this man did what he thought was right. Did he set out to kill somebody? No. But this whole thing I, and I don't know his intent, but I assume that was not his intent. But this whole case was full of crap from the beginning.

RIVERA: (INAUDIBLE) it's a race case.

CHAMPION: It's stupid. I don't want to -- it's stupid, but I don't want to even make it left or right. We're talking about humanity. We're talking about people who are sick. We're talking about something that happens every single day in New York City, and we do nothing about it.

RIVERA: Daniel Penny is a hero.

JENNINGS: I agree with virtually everything Cari except for --

(CROSSTALKS)

JENNINGS: Except for one quibble, and that is, you know, you said there were failures on all sides. There's a lot of failures here. The only person who did not fail was Penny. Penny was a Good Samaritan. He stood up for his fellow citizens in a moment when a lot of people would have not been able to, would have not wanted to, just could not have summoned the courage or will to do so.

[22:25:07]

And so thank God for the Good Samaritans.

I think that I think the biggest failure here, honestly, Alvin Bragg is a disgrace. He ought to resign. This man was a hero. He had his name and his life dragged through the mud for absolutely no reason other than he thought it would please radical political constituencies that he has. It is an absolute disgrace what the prosecutors did to this man.

GESIOTTO: Absolutely.

AVLON: Look, this was a tragedy and there was due process. So, that's first thing.

CHAMPION: That's it?

AVLON: There's due process.

Second of all, anytime there's civic disorder at an elevated level, you get people feeling fear and then frustration and someone steps up to confront it.

Now, Penny, there's no indication he intended to murder that man, but that's also what a Good Samaritan does.

CHAMPION: Correct.

AVLON: And so the outcome was presumably a tragedy, an unintended consequence. But this is what happens when fear and a certain kind of civic disorder gets out of control, which is why quality of life policing is important. We've forgotten that. Quality of life policing is important. Because if you allow civic disorder to get out of control, all of a sudden you get this kind of environment where people, you know, they respond to these threats.

RIVERA: That, I agree, but to Scott's point, I think it's very important that we not lose sight of the fact that this particular district attorney had the option of whether or not to prosecute Daniel Penny. So, he decided not only to prosecute but to go for the manslaughter charge, a manslaughter charge on something that nobody was scratching that, what about manslaughter. The worst, it was a negligent criminally negligent.

No, I want to make this point because Alvin Bragg has been the nemesis of Donald Trump. Any criticism of Bragg automatically becomes political. I don't mean it to be political. I worked in that office. So did my daughter, who -- the sister of the one who works here. This prosecutor made a political decision to go after this prosecutor white Marine because of his constituency and I think that he really --

CORNISH: Can I ask a question related to this then? What do you say to the parents of a victim who dies in this circumstance? You just say, hey, sorry, not --

CHAMPION: And Bragg is not the first (INAUDIBLE), he could be last.

CORNISH: This is not me saying it's good or bad, but prosecutors do go after people all the time for a variety of things.

JENNINGS: You keep referring you keep referring that Neely is the victim. I think Penny is the victim in this case, and I think the people on that train are the victims.

CORNISH: I have a tendency to call the people who die a victim. We have different ideas about that, but to my mind someone lost a child and I'm always going to feel for that person. That's just how I'm built. It's like a Christian thing. But the reason why I'm asking is --

JENNINGS: Are you saying I'm not at a Christian?

CORNISH: I'm not at all. I just want to make sure that you understand it's a values-based comment.

JENNINGS: Are you saying I don't have any values?

CORNISH: Not a political one.

JENNINGS: Are you saying I don't have the --

AVLON: No, Scott, she's not saying that.

CORNISH: He needs a clip for the internet. So, I need to like --

CHAMPION: Exactly.

CORNISH: But in the meantime, the reason why I'm saying it is because what do you say to a family when someone has died and you're the prosecutor? You just say --

RIVERA: Well, there's so much dysfunction surrounding the person who died on the subway that I think that to bring in the family argument, although I absolutely agree that everybody has family, everybody has someone who cares about them, or do they? And to intervene in someone's life or to protest the ill treatment of their relative when it's the first time they've spoken to them in 10 or 15 or 20 years, and they don't let them in the apartment when they're free because they're so dysfunctional, this guy's been there. He had a warrant on him when this incident happened. He was a bad dude, crazy man that you get on the side of taking the subway 10,000 times.

And you see this, once in a while, it happens. I mean, there's often raucousness, if that's the word, but they seldom this menace. It's really (INAUDIBLE).

AVLON: This is why quality of life --

RIVERA: One in a hundred or one in a two.

AVLON: The broken windows theory works.

RIVERA: Well, I agree with that too. I agree with the broken window --

CORNISH: Yes, but I wish we had more time because I'd ask you about other systems, right, like the healthcare system, the homelessness system. Those also seem related.

AVLON: Absolutely. Post-COVID people being sent out of both prisons and mental asylums and adding to the compounding of problems.

RIVERA: Yes.

CORNISH: All right. Well, everybody hang tight. We're going to turn to congressional politics because there's a lot of pressure, a lot of turn up on the Pete Hegseth nomination, because he's obviously working to be the next defense secretary. We're going to discuss how that's playing out on Capitol Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:34:09]

CORNISH: Tonight, you might call it verbal hopscotch from a pair of senators about a Trump cabinet pick. Lindsey Graham and Joni Ernst sounded skeptical about Pete Hegseth leading the Pentagon until they didn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: It doesn't sound on your answer that you've gotten to a yes. If I'm wrong about that, correct me. And if that is the case, it sounds to me as if the hearing will be critical for his nomination. Am I right about that?

SEN, JONI ERNST (R-IOWA): I think -- I think you are right. I am supporting him through this process. It was a very productive meeting though.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SOUTH CAROLINA): Some of these articles are very disturbing. He obviously has a chance to defend himself here, but some of this stuff is going to be difficult. The accusations are anonymous. The police report I've read, right now -- he's in pretty good shape.

(22:35:02)

I think he's very smart. He's much better off this week than he was last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: All right, so this one's a pretty simple one. Is that true, that last comment? And Scott, I will start with you because of your time on the Hill. Are we looking at a shift for Hegseth?

JENNINGS: Well, he -- Senator Graham's right. This time last week, a lot of folks were wondering whether he was going to survive the week, and now he's more than survived it. He's got a little bit of momentum.

You know, there's still a group of Republican senators who are basically outside the matrix, right? They're unthreadable. They're not running again. They benefit from public feuds with Trump, or so on and so forth. Or foreign policy, national defense, national security is their key issue. And they're just -- they're not prone to being influenced by the normal public relations cycle.

There's probably more than four of them. I don't know that he's over the line yet, but this is the purpose of the hearing. And obviously, he did himself some good over the last week in some of his meetings on the Hill to generate these kinds of more positive comments. So, good for him, not out of the woods, but better shape, absolutely.

RIVERA: And I know Pete -- Major Pete, I call him pretty well, being on "Fox and Friends Weekend" for those many years, sitting on the couch with him, sharing the couch, been at with him. I thought, as Scott mentions, that he was on the ropes of a lot of the stuff coming up that none of us had ever heard of before because of non-disclosures and so forth.

But then Pete did something -- Major Pete did something that I think is the difference between a combat veteran and the rest of the world. What Pete did was go to his combat brothers and it was they who started speaking on his behalf saying -- talking about his courage, talking about how he earned those two bronze stars, how he never allowed his men to get in front of him in a hot zone.

And I think that's what the Defense Department needs. That's what the Pentagon needs and I think that realization swept suddenly but I think with growing momentum through -- through Washington D.C., that if you haven't served the country in combat, then shut up. Or you know, you better respect -- respect what he's doing.

CORNISH: I mean, the other question I have about it is one -- if other accusers actually went public, would that create another cycle that would make this difficult --

RIVERA: That would be different.

CORNISH: Yes, do you think so? RIVERA: I do. I think that if it -- if you had a current case, in other words, he's now -- there's nothing, as far as I know, past 2017. If there was a current case that showed behavior that was still abysmal and drunkenness and wanton behavior.

And you know, screwing up a relationship and all that kind of stuff, now, now that he has embraced Christianity, now that his combat colleagues have come out in his behalf, I think that it would be different. But it's not the case. That's a speculation. That's not what's happening. And what's happening is you've heard it and he's going to get this job.

GESIOTTO: We've heard senators speak to just that and I think one of them came out today or yesterday saying that if sources or if these people came forward with their names or made these accusations with their faces behind them, this could really change the process.

But as of now, they feel like with these big unnamed sources and a lot of information conflicting going around that they don't feel that they're going to put a lot of weight behind this. We're seeing that process play out right now, obviously.

I think he's going to get to a hearing at this point unless something significant changes. Whereas last week, as Scott said, we weren't sure if that was going to happen by Friday. And so, I think it's very interesting.

Another thing, too, I think important to note is when you look at what's the role of, you know, going through the background checks, making sure we dig into people's backgrounds, it's we want to make sure someone can't be compromised when they're at this level of government.

And so, with all of this --many of these things -- I'm very far back being out there. If that is it, if there is nothing else, this could be -- this could be exactly what he needs to get over the finish line.

AVLON: Well, hold on. There's the issue of experience. There's the issue of whether someone can be compromised. Obviously, there's a number of questions around certain national security picks -- Tulsi Gabbard and Kash Patel on the lawn over side.

You know, Senator Xander Beck(ph) on one hand used to talk about Defining Deviancy Down, right? And I think that's what we're watching in slow motion here. John Tower was rejected as first President Bush's Secretary of Defense nominee, despite being in the Senate for 24 years because of a pattern of impersonal, you know, intemperance with alcohol and women. And it does go to question about whether some can be compromised.

It's also whether their experience leads them to be able to manage the world's largest bureaucracy in a dangerous time. And there's a world of difference between a Jim Mattis, who was Trump's first pick to be Sec Def and Pete Hegseth. And it is reasonable for United States senators who care about national security, I would hope, to try to keep a broader perspective in mind than simply partisan field team. CORNISH: Yes, Cari, I saw you with the question earlier.

CHAMPION: Well, because she said not to be compromising, you're talking about partisan.

[22:40:01]

I -- you guys can tell me. You would know more than I did. I don't -- I never was under the impression that, I mean, honestly, truly that he was going to have a hard time. I like that there's some pushback, this facade of pushback and questioning whether or not he is eligible for said job.

But one thing that I've noticed that Republicans do, is they stick together. When it's all said and done, they come together in a way in which I think Democrats can learn something from. And whether for better or for worse. And I'm not saying that I believe it works. I'm going to go and I'm going to go worse, too.

CORNISH: Well, I'm actually -- it's curious. I like that you're bringing this up because Scott started this conversation by talking about the idea of being outside of the matrix. And there is a real question about how independent can a Republican senator be in a current environment with these margins?

CHAMPION: You can.

CORNISH: And do you save your firepower for a picture you're really upset about?

JENNINGS: I mean, if you're not running again, or you just got elected --

CHAMPION: Sure. Sure, you have no future.

JENNINGS: -- or you represent a constituency that, say, likes it that you've got a little bit of an independent streak, which we have a couple of those, as well, you absolutely can buck your own party. And -- and I predict that it will happen. I don't know that it'll be enough to seek him or won't, but I do think the Senate's different than the House and some of these senators just -- they don't exist in the same plane of Trump that everybody else does.

AVLON: Yes, this is a constitutional responsibility, the Senate, advise and consent. And the closer we get to partisanship, where a Senate just sort of constitutionally self-neuters itself by just deferring to whatever a president does no matter he puts forward, that's not good no matter what party that president is.

CHAMPION: And do you not think that's happening now?

AVLON: I think that's in danger of happening that's why the John Foon is in critical role in its -- we need to have independent voice of the senate. We're keeping an eye on the national interest not just the partisan side. CORNISH: I mean, it's a high-pressure environment and Don Jr. on X posting about -- who wants this, too, actually? I don't know. It doesn't say what senator you're talking about, where he is criticizing a senator who may be skeptical about Hegseth. I bring it up because it's not just pressure to be loyal to party, there is that pressure to be loyal to Trump, as well.

GESIOTTO: I actually am going to have to disagree with Cari in that. You know, my experience in the past decade in the Republican party is that we don't stick together and we actually could learn a lot from the Democrats.

And I think Scott would back me up on this because so many times we see Democrats, they fight behind closed doors, but when it comes to it, they get their candidates across the finish line. Republicans don't do that. We've dragged our president. We've had anti-Trump, pro- Trump.

We've had all these factions, even in the state parties. We see it in Ohio. We see it across the country. I don't think we stick together like we should and unity was a huge issue that we saw play out when I was at the RNC last year.

CORNISH: Well, if it makes you both feel better, I don't think the voting public thinks either party is free to go in it, crossing lines or compromise. We see -- we see them both as marching in lockstep.

CHAMPION: Maybe there's a law on -- I will take your disagreement but maybe there is a sycophant level of loyalty to Trump that I find disturbing. That's probably what I'm referring to.

GESIOTTO: I mean, if there was, I think he would have had an easier time in his first administration, that's for sure. Especially with the feeling of replacing Obamacare.

JENNINGS: I think Geraldo makes some good points about what Hegseth represents. He's -- he's going to be, if he makes it, he'll be the closest Secretary of Defense we've had to the actual --

RIVERA: The warfighting.

JENNINGS: Warfighting and the rank-and-file soldier. And I do think there's some benefit to that. These secretaries exist with big teams. I think if they put the right team around, they could do some legislative affairs with some of the senators that are skeptical on this front. There's a way to get him there, and there's a way for him to be successful, and it might just be what the Pentagon needs.

RIVERA: And I also, just on that point, I just think that a lot of the appointments of admirals and generals to these positions, Audie, I think is more window dressing. How much administrative experience do some of these all codgers have?

I'd get to the -- I hear so much. I'm 81. I hear so much about, you know, his lack of experience -- three million employees and all the rest of it. I want to know, how many of those three million employees are really warfighters? How many of them are like the eighty-second, they are born -- a hundred first. Or you know, how many of the real -- the people you're going to send to Syria when push comes to shove and the shit (ph) hits the fan?

I think that this guy is the right guy for this moment. And I think that -- and based on the fact that he used to host a show with him on the weekends? Y

GESIOTTO: Yes.

RIVERA: It has a lot to do with that.

AVLON: That's my point.

RIVERA: But that means that I know him better than you do.

AVLON: OK, that -- I'm not arguing that, but some responsibilities are bigger than personal relationships. I mean, you know, Jim Mattis, getting appointed by Trump the first time, enormous respect among the rank and file of the military because he was a fighting general who had the respect of the troops, whose experience was directly in war fighting, running large bureaucracies during wartime. Not -- with all due respect, people on television shows -- more than that.

JENNINGS: He was in for 20 years and won two bronze stars. I mean, I wouldn't denigrate him.

AVLON: God bless him.

JENNINGS: I wouldn't denigrate Pete's experience.

[22:45:00]

AVLON: I'm not denigrating it at all. I'm just saying it's a different level of immediate experience and also running a huge -- take a look at Esper. Well, he's another Trump appointee. Someone who's run large, complex bureaucracies at a difficult time, particularly at a time when the president-elect is saying he wants to fire an entire top-layer.

GESIOTTO: But I think a lot of people in this country don't want those picks. That would be typical. They don't want the people who have been part of bureaucracy.

CHAMPION: How do you know that?

GESIOTTO: A lot of people don't want -- I mean I've been across the country. I've talked to a lot of people.

CHAMPION: Every single person in the country?

GESIOTTO: Kamala Harris couldn't flip one county in the entire country. That hasn't been done since 1932. She couldn't flip one county in the entire country. People want change. They want picks that are going to be different than the status quo.

CHAMPION: Well, fine. Get all the TV hosts you want. It's fine with me.

JENNINGS: What's wrong with TV hosts?

CHAMPION: Nothing, they're great.

CORNISH: Well, I can start doling out cabinet titles for you guys now.

JENNINGS: You're 81?

RIVERA: Yes.

JENNINGS: We got a Geraldo 2028 in the future? I mean, you're just getting into the zone when you make a good play.

RIVERA: I've just hit my stride.

CHAMPION: Yes, you look good.

AVLON: Wow.

CORNISH: All right, everybody hold on because the panel's going to give us their nightcaps, including some comments by basketball star, Caitlin Clark. We're going to talk about that, as well, that are firing up the right. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CORNISH: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. And Scott, you're up first.

JENNINGS: Today, the San Diego Board of Supervisors voted three to one to turn San Diego County into a super sanctuary county, going even further than California's existing illegal immigration sanctuary laws. Under this policy, law enforcement is prohibited from notifying ICE about individuals in custody who have committed violent and heinous crimes like rape, stalking, assault, battery, burglary, child abuse and more.

There was one no vote, Supervisor Jim Desmond, apparently the only non-crazy person on this board. Let's hope President Trump finds a way to defeat these rogue public officials around the country who are hell bent on endangering the public.

CORNISH: And Cari Champion. You.

CHAMPION: OK, so Caitlin Clark, we've heard of her, Sportsperson of the Year. "Time" did a wonderful article on her today. And I would like to just say, I want to take a moment, I've always been a fan, on the court and now more so off the court. There was a lot of hubbub, if you will, about whether or not she was a Christian if she was on the right or if she was on the left.

There was everyone, all the new fans to the sport had so much to say about Caitlin Clark. And today she said something that I thought was more about humanity and bringing that sport together, women's basketball. She said, listen, it's been around since 1997, built on the backs of black women and they deserve to get the same attention that I get. And I hope that I can do my part and give that same attention to them.

And I appreciate her for saying that because she makes more money than these women and it's not necessarily her fault in any form or fashion. But she does understand that she has white privilege -- her words, not mine. And what that says to me is that she's well aware of the world that she lives in and she wants to make It a better place. So, kudos to one Caitlin Clark.

CORNISH: Thank you. Geraldo.

RIVERA: Prime Minister of Israel Bibi Netanyahu may be a crook -- may or may not be a crook. Excuse me. We'll find out as that process works itself out. But he is and has been a great war fighter, a great war leader. Israel has won a historic victory. Hezbollah is defeated. Syria is defeated. Hamas is deep underground, and you know, their time -- their time is coming.

The one reason I hesitate is that remember there are 100 Israeli hostages still buried deep under Gaza 431 days later. Imagine that -- 431 days in that environment. It is a torture beyond imagining. So, that's my whole message. Just remember the hostages as we move forward.

JENNINGS: Yes, amen.

RIVERA: We get so busy. So many different, you know, emergencies competing for center stage in the world. Let's not forget this one on the corner.

CORNISH: Appreciate that. Madison.

GESIOTTO: Well, I just got my kids acquainted with Santa and we all almost lost him. It is a Christmas miracle. If you haven't seen yet, you have to check out the clips. Santa Claus left hanging 60-foot above the ground on 13th story in a building in Connecticut. Luckily, firefighters coming to the rescue, dragging him in through a sixth floor window saving the day. Christmas will go on this year and thank God for that.

CORNISH: appreciate it.

UNKNOWN: Thank God for Santa's rescue, absolutely.

CORNISH: Can't beat that.

JENNINGS: Wait, what was he doing up there?

CHAMPION: Just hanging out.

GESIOTTO: Just prepping for Christmas. Not everybody lives in the house. He's got to work on those apartment buildings, office buildings.

CHAMPION: Chimneys are not everywhere. Correct. GESIOTTO: Of course, if you made the good list only, of course.

AVLON: No coal for end of this table. I want to give thanks to Joe Manchin. Democrats should be thanking Joe Manchin belatedly. He is riding into the sunset, but he took a lot of grief from a lot of folks on the far left who were frustrated with him but disproportionately, a lot of legislative accomplishments.

The historic legislative accomplishments of the Biden administration are due to Manchin. The infrastructure bill he was critical in corralling. The Inflation Reduction Act, with a lot of the provisions that really are helping combat climate change, that is due to him and also things like lowering prescription drugs.

He was early on saying we need to streamline regulations around, you know, energy, for clean energy technology. That's a positive step. And frankly, his election reform bill, the John Lewis Act, was a good compromise, as well. Democrats need red state and rural Democrats to win. Hopefully, that's clear now than ever because they are going to miss them when they are gone. They already do.

CORNISH: OK. Everyone, thank you so much for sharing tonight.

UNKNOWN: Thanks. It's great to be here with you.

CORNISH: I appreciate your time.

[22:55:00]

Coming up, see what happened on Capitol Hill when the Postmaster General just couldn't listen to the drama anymore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:59:46]

CORNISH: Here, no evil. Postmaster General Louis DeJoy was grilled today about the Postal Service's efficiency. Watch what happened when Republican Congressman Rich McCormick challenged him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GEORGIA): You are responsible for the fall of the postal service and the lack of accountability. It doesn't -- so it's Congress'--

[23:00:00]

LOUIS DEJOY, U.S. POSTMASTER GENERAL: Congress is responsible for the fall of the postal service. I am trying to fix - I am trying to fix the postal service.

MCCORMICK: On your watch, with all the A.I., -- with all the A.I., with all the computer systems, you're worse than if I took a horse and picked up the mail and delivered it two miles down the road. That's you. I hope you got that on camera. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: DeJoy told Congress that he would give the Postal Service an A, which McCormick disputed, to say the least. We want to thank you so much for watching tonight. We appreciate you joining the conversation -- "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.