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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Fears of Shutdown As Trump And Musk Kill Spending Bill; House GOP Says, Liz Cheney Should Be Investigated For Jan. 6 Panel Work; CNN's Kaitlan Collins Interviews Border Czar Tom Homan; Disney Cuts Storyline About Transgender Identity From Upcoming Animated Series "Win Or Lose"; House Democrats Pick Congressman Gerry Connolly Over AOC For Top Role In House Oversight Committee. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 18, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, does Congress deserve a pay raise?
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I think it's about time.
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Do I deserve it? Heck no.
PHILLIP: The 11th hour surprise that's even ticking off the world's richest man.
Plus, Donald Trump's revenge tour starts early, and Liz Cheney is suddenly at the top of his list.
Also, the face of Trump's deportation plot joins CNN, but is his plan just Obama one?
And Disney plays softball. The Mouse yanks a transgender storyline from a series in a sign of the times.
Live at the table, Mondaire Jones, Gail Huff Brown, Arthur Aidala, and Maria Cardona.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. Who's calling the shots? The power struggle in Washington may be helmed by somebody who wasn't even elected. Trump's right hand man, Elon Musk, has been taking a leading role in this effort to kill a bipartisan spending bill. That bill is needed to keep the government open.
After Speaker Mike Johnson unveiled the 1,500-page bill, Musk took to X to call on his followers to, quote, kill the bill over its pork and extraneous spending. Now, he went so far as to say any member of the House or the Senate who votes for this outrageous spending bill deserves to be ousted in two years.
Republican Congressman Byron Donalds also told CNN simply we will see the new power of Elon. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz posted this on X, if Musk kills the bill, he is more powerful than all the Washington lobbyists combined.
So, where was Trump in all of this? For much of the day, he was pretty silent on this issue until he started echoing Musk's complaints via statements on Truth Social. In a joint statement with Vance, he said, Republicans must get smart and tough. If Democrats threaten to shut down the government unless we give them everything they want, then call their bluff.
PHILLIP: Now, as of tonight, the old bill is dead, but there is no new bill, which means the U.S. is now barreling toward a shutdown with just 48 hours to go.
Joining us in our fifth seat of the table is CNN Economics Commentator Catherine Rampell. Here we go again. It's so interesting to see this happen because, in a way, all of the sort of like backroom strategies just being said out loud, Trump says he wants the debt limit increased under Biden as if we don't know that Republicans control the House and that he is asking for that very thing. And they also want a clean bill. There is no such thing on the table right now. And Speaker Johnson just doesn't have the votes.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. Look, this is government by tantrum. This is what the American people voted for, and they're just getting it early.
And I think actually it's quite interesting, because it's not only about continuing the existing funding levels, there's also some other stuff in there that Republicans should be very much in favor of, including funding for hurricane victims. Do you remember Republicans, including Trump, made a big deal about how FEMA was allegedly abandoning all of these natural disaster victims? There was funding for them that they are now leaving on the cutting room floor. So, I don't even understand the strategy here. Like why would you want to come into office with a shut down government? Usually a new administration wants some breathing room.
PHILLIP: It's very perplexing. Let me just play Mike Johnson. He is, at this point, not negotiating with Democrats or with Trump. He's negotiating with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I was communicating with Elon last night. Elon and Vivek and I are on a text chain together. And I was explaining to them the background of this.
Remember guys, we still have just a razor thin margin of Republicans, so any bill has to have Democrat votes. They understand the situation. They said, it's not directed to you, Mr. Speaker, but we don't like the spending. I said, guess what fellows, I don't either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, he's got a tough job. But, I mean, Elon and Vivek are not in the government. They're not even going to be in the government. This is so -- I mean, it's incredible, actually.
FMR. REP. MONDAIRE JONES (D-NY): Yes. So, the margin that the speaker just referred to in that clip is actually a more significant margin than you will see for most of the next term in Congress, where Democrats have picked up seats, in fact. And so you're going to see --
PHILLIP: Trump has raided the House Republican conference for his administration. That is also a problem.
JONES: That's true. And he'll exert more influence than has historically been the case for the past couple of years through his presidency. And perhaps I should say President Elon Musk will be exerting more influence over the house Republican conference than any president in the White House would.
Look, this is to the point just made exactly what people voted for, even unwittingly. I mean, I think they expected government, you know, people in office to be able to keep the lights on. But this is foreshadowing what is to come, and it's only going to become more chaotic when Republicans have unified control of the federal government.
GAIL HUFF BROWN (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, NEW HAMPSHIRE: I think that, you know, this is what Americans wanted. They wanted a disruptor. And obviously his decision to bring in Ramaswamy and to bring in Elon Musk was to have a buffer zone there and people that would look at the waste, look at the problems, look at what's missing.
There no question that this is a pork-filled bill. And many of the things have to be taken out of that. And there's no reason that they can't have a continuing resolution that will take them up until Donald Trump becomes president and then he calls the shots and the people that help to call those shots.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But the problem is that Donald Trump has now put on the table, don't do anything with any bill if you don't raise the debt limit. That's insane. It takes months to negotiate a debt limit. So, I actually don't think that the majority of the people voted wittingly for this. The people voted for somebody, a group of people, a group of leaders, to govern. And what Donald Trump and Elon Musk and Ramaswamy and Speaker Johnson are now proving is that they absolutely have no ability to govern and perhaps worse than that, not even an interest in governing.
BROWN: Would you rather have a bad bill?
CARDONA: I would rather have the bipartisan bill that they negotiated between the parties.
BROWN: First of all, a raise for Congress?
PHILLIP: Let me let Arthur and then we'll talk about that raise. Go ahead.
ARTHUR AIDALA, VETERAN NEW YORK TRIAL ATTORNEY: I just look at people, who they are, who their background, what their record is, and there's no doubt that Elon Musk has an enormous amount of input in this pre- administration. That goes without saying. That's clear. He also has a pretty darn good track record of running companies. I mean, he took people to space. That's not just like running Ford Motor Company or Tesla. He took people to space. His stock is through the roof. He obviously has the credibility of many Americans who own that Tesla stock in their portfolio and watching it go through the roof.
So, it's not like Donald Trump is asking a guy who has failed after failure at the bankruptcy. He's asking a pretty small --
CARDONA: That's him. That's Donald Trump.
RAMPELL: Elon Musk bought twitter and basically set $44 billion dollars on fire. That's the first thing.
AIDALA: Okay, but he's got it to burn, so you've got to take credit for that.
(CROSSTALKS)
RAMPELL: But beyond that, Tesla stock is going up because Americans believe that Elon Musk has Donald Trump's ear and will shape policy in such a way that will enrich Tesla.
AIDALA: 70 percent of electric cars are Tesla. 70 percent of electric cars are Tesla.
PHILLIP: Can I give you another example? So, earlier today he tweeted about something that someone else tweeted was in the bill, but it turned out it wasn't in the bill. No federal money was going toward D.C. sports stadium, even though Elon thought it was. So, there are some basic things about even how to read a spending bill and understand what's in it that I think is --
(CROSSTALKS)
CARDONA: I repeat, absolutely no interest in actually understanding how the government works. You know what's so ironic about what you said? How many billions of dollars did Elon get from the government in order to start those companies? And now he wants to blow it up.
AIDALA: So, you're contradicting yourself though. You're just saying he knows how the government works. You just said he knows how the government works. So he knows how to get the money. He knows how to save money.
(CROSSTALKS)
JONES: It's not just about understanding how the government works, as important as that is. It's also about being an effective manager. And I think it's a myth, and we just saw that because why would you just announce on Twitter that you will oppose this legislation to keep the government open 72 or so hours before a deadline to shut down the government? I mean, if he was serious about cutting pork and doing all this other stuff that Republican conservatives are talking about, then they would have been very much involved in this text thread that Speaker Johnson was saying. Like throughout their entire process --
(CROSSTALKS)
BROWN: I don't think they were afraid of shutting down the government anyway.
[22:10:00]
I mean, remember, it was in Trump's last administration that they did exactly that.
PHILLIP: And they paid a political price.
RAMPELL: Yes. Well, that is an economic price.
PHILLIP: Shutting down the government is not popular, and Americans are not stupid. They know who to blame.
But let me just raise something, because I do want to get to this. Gail, you talked about members of Congress getting a raise.
BROWN: Right.
PHILLIP: The question is, should they?
BROWN: No.
PHILLIP: I mean, you say no. Mondaire, what do you say?
JONES: Look, members of Congress, if they got paid more, I think would be less likely to engage in the kind of corruption that we have seen.
PHILLIP: It's been what, ten years?
JONES: It has been since 2009, is my understanding, since members of Congress got a raise. And this is by exemption. I mean, it should be automatic in the way other salaries in the federal government are. But it's because they voted to do precisely this.
And so the recent proposal of raising the salary by $6,600 is still much less than it would have been if those automatic increases that everyone else in the federal government benefits from apply to members of Congress.
PHILLIP: It's not huge sums. I also -- I mean, I wonder, Gail, I mean, I get it. Congress sucks. They don't really do their job, but I don't know how not paying them, you know, basic living amounts is going to make it better.
BROWN: Because they already made $174,000, which is in the upper echelon of most of their constituents.
AIDALA: All kidding aside, not if you live in Brooklyn, New York. Not if you live in Manhattan. Not if you live in San Francisco.
PHILLIP: Not if you live in Washington, D.C. and New York.
CARDONA: Exactly.
JONES: Look, I'll speak from personal experience. When I was in Congress, I barely saved. In fact, I did not save anything because when I was there, we didn't even have per diem, right? So, I was paying for rent in Westchester County, New York, and in D.C. The average American thinks, by the way, that members of Congress have their D.C. expenses paid for. That's not true.
CARDONA: There are members of Congress who have roommates. They all like get a townhouse. There are members of Congress who have lived in their offices. Now, maybe the Republicans don't worry about that because they're all rich.
BROWN: Not true.
CARDONA: Democrats certainly --
JONES: To be fair, most of the Democrats are rich in Congress too. And I think that's the other problem, right? Like when you actually pay people, you know, commensurate with what the role entails, provided they're doing their job correctly, you'll get people who are talented and who want that job.
CARDONA: I think that's right. I think that's exactly right.
JONES: The people you want in Congress are people who couldn't get paid really well in the private sector, but you want them to make a financial sacrifice for the public good. And so you have to pay those people well. It also keeps out younger people and working class people who are not independently wealthy, which is why Congress is full of millionaires.
PHILLIP: Maxwell Frost, he was the first millennial -- I shouldn't say first, he was the first Gen Zer in Congress. He struggled to even afford an apartment. I mean, are we locking out people who actually are smart, who have the ability to lead by basically saying, hey, well you got to scrape by if you want to serve the government.
BROWN: I don't think you're scraping by with 174 -- my husband used to be a U.S. Senator. I know what it's like to have two separate houses, and we're a middle class family. But there are other things that come with it. You have free parking. You don't have to pay for any of that. Free parking in D.C., that is a really big deal.
JONES: I just told you, as someone who was just in Congress a term ago, that as a working class, I don't know how we define middle class. I've noticed in my conversations over the past few years that people define middle class differently. But I can tell you based on my own experience, it is a real struggle if you live in a place like New York or really most places in the United States, and you have to pay for housing in your district and in Washington D.C. at the same time to say nothing of all of the food that you're getting while you're down in D.C.
AIDALA: And how about your kids? How about tuition? How about all those -- look, it depends on what part of the country you live in. I mean, I will tell you one of the biggest problems with the New York City Council is you make $145,000 and you cannot make another nickel anywhere else. Go try to be the representative of a particular area of New York, be married with two children and one has special needs. You just can't do it. You can't get it.
PHILLIP: It feels like some of these fights over whether Congress gets like $6,000 more, it's performative and it doesn't even -- it doesn't scratch the surface of the problems that the country is facing.
RAMPELL: I don't want to pretend that members of Congress are poorly paid. I think that you are right. Objectively, $174,000 is a lot within the, you know, the general spectrum of what Americans make. But you want people -- to your point, you want people in who, who could have alternative, you know, outside opportunities where they would make more money and who are not there just because they're independently wealthy. I think those are the real concerns.
But the broader point is this is like such a drop in the bucket. Like why are you shutting down the entire government over this issue, particularly since if this is really about pork and government efficiency and everything else, we have to remember that shutdowns cost money. They cost money to taxpayers because winding down the government and ramping it back up costs money. They also cost money to the economy.
So, it was, I think, Abby, you referenced before the shutdown in 2018, 2019. So, the Congressional Budget Office, which is the nonpartisan, you know, scorekeeper for Congress, looked at what the cost was to GDP of that shutdown.
[22:15:07]
It was a five-week partial shutdown and the cost to the economy was $3 billion on net, even after everything ramped up again. And it's costly.
PHILLIP: And we do have to go there, but I mean, it's such an important point. And remember, even when you say to people, oh, you're going to get paid after the fact, people still make decisions today based on whether they're going to have money in their pockets.
CARDONA: Exactly.
PHILLIP: Everyone stick around. Coming up next, Donald Trump has long called for Liz Cheney to be jailed, and now House Republicans say that the FBI should prosecute the former congresswoman. But will that go anywhere? We have a special guest joining us in our fifth seat to explain the legalities of it all.
Plus, Trump's incoming border czar sat down with CNN. Hear what he says mass deportations are going to look like when Trump takes office.
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[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, key House Republicans are embracing Donald Trump's retribution crusade against Liz Cheney. They released her new report recommending that the former congresswoman face prosecution for her investigation into January 6th. That report alleges that Cheney leveraged her position on the committee to fulfill her promise to do what she could to keep Trump from the Oval Office.
Now, Trump praised the report in an early morning 3:00 A.M. Truth Social post. He wrote, Cheney could be in a lot of trouble based on the subcommittee's evidence. Meanwhile, Cheney is defending her work in a new statement. She wrote, the report fabricates lies and defamatory allegations in an attempt to cover up what Donald Trump did, and that the subcommittee's allegations are malicious and cowardly assault on the truth.
Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig, he's also a former federal prosecutor. Eli Honig, do you see anything in what Republicans have laid out here that is illegal?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No, there is nothing there. I'm here to report. I'm going to give you the bottom line right up front.
BROWN: And you know that?
HONIG: I do know that.
BROWN: Okay.
HONIG: I just read this report. God help me, it's long.
AIDALA: You read it? It's 300 pages. Did you really read it?
HONIG: Let me paraphrase. I read through it. I read through it.
JONES: He is a senior legal analyst.
HONIG: Listen, lawyers know where to go for the good parts. I read through this thing. The part that recommends criminal charges against Elizabeth Cheney is remarkably unspecific and way off base. The basis that they allege is that Liz Cheney had secret communications, ooh, secret communications with a witness. What's she supposed to do? She's a part of an investigative committee. This is what you do.
Arthur, you're a defense lawyer. I was a prosecutor. What's the job of every FBI agent, cop, prosecutor, defense lawyer, Congressional investigator on the planet? It's to find witnesses and encourage them to come forward.
AIDALA: Right, usually a wave of flags saying, hi everyone, this is going to be my witness. HONIG: Right, exactly, exactly. Right, I mean, of course it's going to be secret. She's not going to tweet, hey, Cassidy, I'd like you to testify. So, there is nothing there.
And the other part of the report says --
AIDALA: Elie, hold on. What about the quid pro quo part of it? Because we've become so loose, and Mayor Adams' case is a perfect example how loose the quid pro quo can be that all of a sudden it's a federal crime. Give me an analysis on the quid pro quo.
HONIG: Well, so, first of all, they don't even claim quid pro quo.
AIDALA: Well, they say, if you help with this, I'll help keep Trump out of office.
HONIG: Yes, they don't even allege bribery or anything like that.
AIDALA: Not bribery. It doesn't have to be for money. It can be one benefit for the other.
HONIG: The report does have all sorts of allegations that Elizabeth Cheney and other members of the committee and witnesses had bad motives. They didn't like Donald Trump. They wanted to hurt Donald Trump politically. Let's take all of that as a given. I don't necessarily agree, but we don't need to resolve that. Even if it's all true, even if every word in that is true, it's still not a crime with respect to Liz Cheney. And that's where the report crosses the line.
PHILLIP: And if Kash Patel is at DOJ and uses this report as a predicate to prosecute Liz Cheney, what do you say?
BROWN: Here's my concern. Americans are very, very concerned about what happened on that day and then subsequently the investigation. If it means opening up and making that, you know, transparent to everyone, even opening another investigation, so what? Maybe there is some kind of witness tampering.
HONIG: But that's not how prosecutors work. We don't open up investigations to just let's probe around and see what's what. I don't --
BROWN: Wow.
HONIG: We don't -- I mean, listen, I'm not telling you every --
AIDALA: Preet didn't do that to Andrew Cuomo.
HONIG: Let me tell you this. I'm not saying all prosecutors are pure. I'm saying in the -- this is not what prosecutors are supposed to do.
AIDALA: There we go.
HONIG: That's fair. That's fair.
So, this report should not be a basis, a pretext, any sort of foundation for prosecutors to say, aha, we have a potential crime here. Somebody said these referral -- by the way, I felt the same way when the January 6th committee referred Donald Trump for criminal action to DOJ. DOJ prosecutors, we get referrals all day, every day. They come in from legislators, agencies, private citizens, cops, defense lawyers, you name it. It doesn't mean, oh great, now we can open up a case. You have to look at the facts.
And I agree, there's political points to be made. I don't have any problem with the political points that are made in either of the reports, the January 6th report or the oversight report that came out today. That's fine. That's political. But to me, it crosses the line when you say, aha, go after her criminally. I don't see any basis for it.
PHILLIP: And Trump has been very clear he thinks that she should go to jail. I mean, he not only wants the investigation, he wants the outcome of jail time. And, honestly, I'm not totally sure why.
[22:25:00]
I mean, I don't know if Trump knows except that he doesn't like her and he thinks --
JONES: He's just got a vindictive personality. This is part of the rise of fascism, is to do away with your political opponents to make sure that people in the future don't do the things that they do.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: Why can't you say that about Letitia James, that she's the rise of fascism? She tried to take down Donald Trump.
JONES: No, because she tried to take out because her investigations have been legitimate. And I'll also speak up for Preet Bharara looking into Andrew Cuomo.
But here's the thing, this idea that somehow all of a sudden Republicans want to look into what happened on January 6th is total nonsense. I was in Congress and we tried to get a nonpartisan commission created and it was Republicans who refused Nancy Pelosi's request to vote for such a thing. And so then she had to choose people in a bipartisan fashion, which she didn't have to do, but she did it anyway. She put Adam Kinzinger on there. She put Liz Cheney on there. And we got to the facts. I lived through this. And so obviously a lot of it was already part of the public record before that committee was impaneled in the first place.
PHILLIP: That's a really important point, because I remember early on, you know, it seemed very clear that there were two paths Congress could choose. They could do this in a 9/11 committee type of way, bipartisan, independent, put together a report that's fact-finding. Republicans were the ones who did not want to do that. And now their biggest concern is penalizing people like Liz Cheney who wanted to find out what led to an insurrection on the United States Capitol as a result of a free and fair election? Priorities seem to be out of whack here. AIDALA: Look, you're talking about -- hold on. You're talking about Donald Trump being vindictive. Look at how -- when he left office, how many people were a vindictive against him. Look at how --
BROWN: He's been a victim.
AIDALA: Look, what the attorney general did --
JONES: Listen, we got to use examples here because we're talking about (INAUDIBLE) got a conviction. Alvin Bragg got a conviction.
AIDALA: Conviction on the most insane case that he and I agreed on for a month. It was ridiculous.
JONES: I know that you guys did that. I thought Elie was wrong when he first said it. I still think he's wrong on that.
AIDALA: Don't disrespect. Do you like the amount of experience that he does to be able to say that?
JONES: Listen, I'm a lawyer, right? And you know what else? The jury found him guilty.
PHILLIP: Maria's in the line of fire.
AIDALA: I apologize. I'm sorry.
PHILLIP: Let me just let her get in.
CARDONA: Let's get back to the Liz Cheney thing, because you just mentioned something, Abby, which I think is critical for people to understand. You said, why is he doing this? Let's remember that Donald Trump is obsessed with retribution. Let's remember that Donald Trump wants to go after his enemies. He's been very, very clear about that.
Now, during the election, he assured the American people that what he really wanted to do was to work on lowering prices, was to work on lowering inflation, was to work on housing prices. The first thing he comes out of the gate with is that he wants Liz Cheney to go to jail? That's a betrayal of the American people and what they thought they had voted for him to do. It's not this.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you real quick, Elie, we don't have a ton of time, but one of the things the allegations against Liz Cheney is that she took a conversation that Liz Cheney had with, you know, a former Trump aide and misrepresented it as witness tampering. My understanding is you believe that is obviously not illegal, but what do you make of that allegation?
HONIG: Witness tampering is illegal, but witness tampering is not what actually happened here, even by the reading.
PHILLIP: But she was accused of accusing Trump of witness tampering and that the allegation is that that was not actually what happened, and that people were then enmeshed in legal jeopardy because the accusation was made in the January 6th committee that there was witness tampering happening.
HONIG: Yes. I mean, I think that it's fair to criticize the January 6th committee. I don't think they're above criticism, but I also don't think that justifies a criminal inquiry of Liz Cheney.
Let me just say, to Mondaire and Arthur's points, I was as critical as anybody. I remain as critical as anybody of the way that Letitia James, Alvin Bragg, and to an extent, Jack Smith, pursued Donald Trump. I stand by all that. I think it's been proven out quite compellingly. But I also completely reject the argument that we will see, that we're already seeing that, well, Donald Trump was done hard by, therefore anything goes the other way. That's retributive and that's leading us in a very bad direction. And I'll be just as critical of those efforts.
PHILLIP: Elie Honig, thank you very much, as always. Everyone else hang tight.
Coming up next, President-elect Trump has made some huge promises about immigration enforcement in his second term. How though is he going to enact them? Well, the man that he's tapped to do that just spoke to CNN moments ago. We've got another special guest in our fifth seat to discuss that as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:34:01]
PHILLIP: President-elect Donald Trump likes to remind everyone that one of the reasons that he won this election was because of the issue of immigration. His pick to be border czar Tom Homan sat down with CNN's Kaitlin Collins in the last hour, and this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S PICK FOR "BORDER CZAR": I'm still working on it. I got the general framework written up and I'm working with other folks on it. But by the time the inauguration happens, the plan will be baked and we'll be ready to launch the day of the inauguration.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: So, how many days after Trump is sworn in before the -- this effort to carry out the mass deportations begins? I know you said it starts on day one, but after how many days will we actually start to see that happening?
HOMAN: Day one. Day one will be -- ICE officers across the country will be out on the streets. Right out of the gate, the President has made it clear, and I've made it clear, that priority right out of the gate is public safety threats and national security threats. And there's plenty of them to find.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table is CNN.com opinion writer Raul Reyes. Raul, when you heard what he said there, I mean, there were two things that stood out to me. One, he was like, I don't really know what the numbers are.
We'll have a plan upon inauguration, but they don't have one yet. So does it make sense to you, then, that they would be ready on day one to start this sort of boots on the ground deportation process that is supposed to, I think, be so big that -- actually shows that Trump is serious about what he promised.
RAUL REYES, CNN OPINION WRITER: Right, right. You know, the thing, my big takeaway from this interview, two things. One was that for someone who has, you know, whatever you think of Trump's policies, they will require a significant capital expenditure. They will require tremendous buy-in from the public in terms of the cost, money from Congress. There are tremendous legal issues that will be raised.
What struck me, like, that's just, you know, at the ground -- ground zero basis. What struck me is that we didn't hear -- there were so few specifics about how he plans to carry all of these things out. And even when he was specifically asked, well, how many people are you targeting? What are your potential goals for the year? How much money do you want from Congress?
These, for someone who is saying that he will be carrying out these policies on day one, that was extremely vague. And the other thing that for me, just for me, it was very troubling, is that he leaned very heavily into the idea of undocumented people and this myth of their association with criminality, as though they were all dangerous criminals and national security threats.
And again, he mentioned when Kaitlin Collins was asked specifically about things like birthright citizenship, about mass deportations, about the cost of undocumented people to society, Thomas Homan said, let the courts decide. Those were his words, he said several times.
The courts have decided on birthright citizenship. The courts have ruled that -- that undocumented children are entitled to public education. They have -- many of these things have already been decided. So, to me, this issue really raised questions about how ready they are and whether or not he is willing to -- and then the administration, is willing to live up to United States responsibilities as a matter of law to asylum seekers.
PHILLIP: So, let me play a little bit more for what Homan said about one of the few specifics I think we got from him. This is him talking about how many beds they're going to need in order to even start this process of removing people from the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMAN: I know the current number of beds available. I know how many agents are out there right now, but I'm looking, we need many more detention beds where they're currently available. I mean, on the Trump administration, we had over 55,000 people in detention in any given day, and they're down to less than 30,000 now.
COLLINS: How many more beds do you think you'll need? HOMAN: We need at least 100,000 beds. And because of beds that are
turned over within 30 days, which gives us our free bed every day. But I'm not going to put a limit on it. I'm telling the minimum, we need 100,000 beds because we've got a big population to look for.
(END VIDO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Gail, I mean, does he sound ready? I mean, let's take as a given, this Trump ran on this, he has to do it. Are they ready to actually do it?
BROWN: Well, this is somebody who's been dealing as somebody who worked for ICE for many years, who knows the problem. And one of the things he made clear in that interview is that they were first going to look for those with criminal connections, and those were the people that were first on the list to be deported.
So, I think that is where the main emphasis is going to be. Now, the overall plan, he was very clear about that. He said it's all going to depend on how much money Congress is willing to allocate for it.
CARDONA: So, can I just talk a little bit about what he said in terms of, our first priority will be criminal, undocumented immigrants. Let's be very clear. The priority to deport criminal, undocumented immigrants has always been a priority for every administration.
And in fact, when Trump came into office in 2017, he reduced the number of criminal undocumented immigrants that we had gone after under Obama because he eradicated the policy of prioritizing criminal undocumented behavior.
So, I just want to make that very clear, because when people say, we have to go after the criminals first, that's happening. The criminal undocumented immigrants are the first ones. They are either in jail serving their time or, and this is something that people completely ignore, they come from countries that aren't taking back their immigrants.
So, again, I think they're completely unprepared for this. He sounds like he has a concept of a plan, but to your point, he has to do it. And so, I think what we are about to encounter is complete chaos, complete cruelty, because the people that are going to be deported are going to be your next-door neighbors, are going to be the people that run the market on Saturdays and Sundays, are going to be the people that come to your house to do your general contracting.
[22:40:07]
PHILLIP: I am not even sure that they will get to that point. Because, I mean, look, they're going to be looking for low-hanging fruit. And there are people that have deportation orders, so they're going to start there. I guess it seems to me that they're going to try to make a big flash and bang about this. And what it's going to really be is kind of the same thing that's already been happening.
CARDONA: Exactly. REYES: But, Abby, the reason why we should take it very seriously and
not presuppose that this will not have a tremendous impact on different communities, whether or not you are a citizen or here unlawfully Is because these types of programs invite massive racial profiling of Latinos, of Asian Americans, of people who speak other languages.
They -- by their nature, they inspire potentially massive invasions of civil rights. And when he talks about wanting to involve state and local law enforcement and the military, that in itself opens state and local law enforcement to tremendous litigation. Because ICE officers, border patrol agents, they undergo specific, very specific training. So, they -- they can make assumptions and decisions about someone's status.
PHILLIP: He did talk, though, about --
REYES: He's talking about involving local police who don't have that training and it takes them away from fighting crime.
PHILLIP: He did talk about DOD, though, and just to be clear about what he said, he said DOD is not going to be involved in actually rounding people up, so to speak, anything that requires a badge and a gun. They would be, he said, a force multiplier. Building facilities, opening up beds, providing airplanes and infrastructure. So, that clarity, we've gotten that. Do you believe it?
REYES: Yes, so, I think of the things that this incoming administration has said it's going to do, I do think that the mass deportations is one of the things that they are trying to do in earnest. I mean, it is one of the more identifiable policies that they ran on. The weight of public opinion is in favor of doing something tougher than what historically has been done at the border.
And sadly, Republican politicians have succeeded in painting millions and millions of undocumented people who are contributing members of our society as bad people as criminals, right?
REYES: And remember, this is not an unsolvable crisis. Politically, yes, but it is not an unsolvable crisis. If our lawmakers and the Trump administration wanted to do something about the influx of people at the border in our large undocumented population, which we've seen across multiple administrations.
They could crack down on employers, businesses, and just regular people who knowingly hire employing undocumented people including through subcontractors.
AIDALA: But I don't understand --
CARDONA: That will never happen. That will never happen.
REYES: That would be far more productive. Instead, he is going after the most vulnerable people in the country who are entitled to due process. That's the constitution and civil law. AIDALA: I don't understand what that solves. You know, when New York
was ground zero for all the migrants coming in, Eric Adams, the mayor here, went down to Washington and said, look, I got all these healthy young men here and they want to work. I know they didn't come here the right way, but can you give me some work permits? Let them go work the right way, and the door was shut in their face.
PHILLIP: Well, I'll tell you what's going to happen.
AIDALA: That didn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
PHILLIP: I don't see a Trump administration turning around and saying, oh, let's give them work permits.
CARDONA: No, definitely not.
PHILLIP: Very different.
CARDONA: Yes.
PHILLIP: I think he's going to do something very different for that. Raul Reyes, thank you very much for joining us.
REYES: Thank you.
PHILLIP: Everyone else, coming up next, do younger lawmakers need to wait their turn before they can take a stab at leadership roles? Some Democrats on the Hill think so. We'll discuss that next.
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[22:48:11]
PHILLIP: Tonight, resisting the winds of change, House Democrats picked Congressman Jerry Connolly over progressive star Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for the top role in the House Oversight Committee. It will be a key role in taking on Donald Trump in the second term. Still, the 74-year-old congressman who is battling cancer and has seniority in the Committee says, his win was not about degenerational shift.
"My colleagues were measuring their votes by who's got experience, who is seasoned, who can be trusted, who's capable and who's got a record of productivity. I think that prevailed." But another veteran Democrat had a more direct message for AOC, saying, you have to wait your turn around here. That's just the way that it works.
Catherine Rampell is back with us. This is what a lot of people say is the problem with Congress, is that there is a whole generation that really should be leading on some of the challenges of the future, and it's not to discount the seniority argument, but there is a time when people should move aside.
RAMPELL: Yes, we've had two leaders, former leaders, recently fall and injure themselves, right? McConnell and Pelosi. I think that is sort of, which was, you know, awful for them, but it is sort of a very visceral representation of the fact that we have this leadership class in Congress that is aged.
And you know, might otherwise be in a more relaxing role in life, retirement let's say, rather than, you know, traipsing around the world and engaging in diplomatic measures or what not. I think it would be wrong though to read this particular matchup between Connolly and AOC as about the generational narrative. I think AOC --
PHILLIP: There's a lot going on there in terms of her relationship with --
RAMPELL: There's a lot going on there. It's not just that she's younger. Yes. It's also -- she's a lightning rod, you know, she's to the left of most of the party.
PHILLIP: But this is a Democratic party that is trying to deal with themselves right now, right?
CARDONA: Yes. Yes.
PHILLIP: And they have to figure out who's actually in touch with the people and there are other members who've said she's the one. She's got a huge following.
CARDONA: That's right. And in fact, when Congressman Connolly won, there was a lot of reaction online and social media saying Democrats still have not learned their lesson in terms of what happened in this election. And I think to a certain extent that's true writ large.
Look, AOC is not going anywhere, right? So, she will be there. And I do think she will rise to these leadership positions pretty quickly. She is brilliant in communicating the way that we now need to be communicating to the people that we now need to be communicating with. I think that she will still do that on this Committee.
I think that, you know, let Gerry Connolly do his thing. He feels like he's in it, rah rah, absolutely. Let's get all of his experience and all of his seniority, right? Let's take advantage of that. But AOC will be there and I think she's going to have a major role in the party.
PHILLIP: I mean, it's not just Democrats.
HUFF BROWN: No, it's not. It's not. That's true. But you know what? Nancy Pelosi was pulling the strings on this one just like she did in ushering Biden out. And it's one mistake after another.
CARDONA: No, I don't think it was just her.
HUFF BROWN: Oh, you don't think that she was behind the AOC calling?
CARDONA: No, well, I mean, there will no more. But there were a lot of issues, as I understand it, as to why AOC didn't win.
PHILLIP: I feel like we're-- speaking of Mondaire, young --
AIDALA: This is, you know, your segment, Mondaire. JONES: Let me state the obvious. AOC is one of the more effective communicators in Democratic politics, in American politics today. But this race was less about, you know, young versus old.
And more about relationships within the caucus and the perception that people have of the two individuals, you know, who has been a team player, who's been there, you know, when we needed that person to be there and who has the better judgment, that kind of thing.
I'm just saying these are the -- these are the impressions that I'm hearing that I know personally from having served with these folks. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if AOC became Ranking Member or the Chair of the Oversight Committee in a -- in a session -- in a term or two from now.
CARDONA: Exactly. That' exactly --
JONES: Because as you mentioned Gerry --
AIDALA: I know you got one second. Isn't AOC's message -- didn't just fail in this election? Came up short. Came up short.
PHILLIP: I don't know if you could say that. I mean, I don't know, I mean, that's a whole other debate.
JONES: I do think -- I do think a lot of Americans view the Democratic Party to be too extreme on some social issues.
PHILLIP: Yes.
JONES: And so, I think that that has to be part of the conversation, too, when we just talk about, oh, well, it's because young people didn't have a good impression. Actually, there are a lot of folks who get out and vote, who feel like the party is too extreme.
PHILLIP: To be continued. Everyone, stay with me. Coming up, Disney is cutting a gender identity storyline. In an upcoming Pixar series, is it a sign of the times? That's next.
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[22:57:37]
PHILLIP: Is it a sign of the times? Disney has cut a storyline about transgender identity from an upcoming animated series called "Win or Lose". The series focuses on a co-ed middle school softball team, and the character will still be in the show. But in a statement, Disney said in part, we recognize many parents would prefer to discuss certain subjects with their children on their own terms and timeline. Gail, smart decision.
HUFF BROWN: Hallelujah. Hallelujah. You know what? Disney needs to stay to entertaining children and not talking about political issues or hot button issues or things that parents should be talking about with their children. CARDONA: And that's what Bob Iger said in his statement that it's all about entertainment. It's not about any kind of mission or any kind of messaging. But look, I don't think it was necessary to have a whole storyline around a trans character, but it is also life, right? And I think, children are also resilient.
AIDALA: But it's a tiny part of life. In other words, they should have a kid who's got diabetes because there are a lot of juvenile babies and they have to stop playing baseball to give themselves insulin or to make sure they have some sugar and there is one like that much more in their lives than the tiny percentage of children who are trends.
CARDONA: But, so now, the character is there. There's no storyline against it or around it. But look, children are resilient. My husband and I sat down to tell our kids when we found out that one of their childhood friends was now a different gender.
And we were going to go see the family. We sat them down. We told them what was happening. And we said, you know, so and so is not so and so anymore. They are now another name. And they're like, oh, okay, great. Good for her. It was nothing.
PHILLIP: Yes, but I think the point is, you have the conversation.
CARDONA: Yes, exactly. That's why I'm saying, I don't think the storyline was necessary.
PHILLIP: From a business decision, I mean, Disney is the parent company of ABC News. They just settled with Donald Trump. They've also been embroiled in controversy with Ron DeSantis in Florida. This is a company that is basically saying, look, we got other things to do. We do not want to be involved in these political debates. So, it doesn't really surprise me to see that.
AIDALA: Moana two. Moana two.
RAMPELL: Yes, I mean, I kind of can't blame them on some level. Like it's a little bit sad that this storyline, which again, why did it need to be in? It affects a very teeny, tiny fraction of kids. Why did it need to be in? But it's also sad, like why did it need to be censored?
[23:00:00]
But on the other hand, like I really --
HUFF BROWN: Censored? Why it's not being censored with that topic -- with that issue.
RAMPELL: Well, they created it and they took it out. My point is like, what does Disney have to gain, right?
CARDONA: From the whole thing.
RAMPELL: Yes.
HUFF BROWN: From their plenty of storylines.
JONES: It's also in the context of a sports team, which is one of the more controversial aspects of --
RAMPELL: Yes, that is also true.
PHILLIP: Yes, trans life -- talk about the third rail here. But I mean, I think we're looking at the dollars and cents for a lot of these companies. Everyone, thank you very much for joining us and thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
