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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

L.A. Mayor Denies Report She Fired City's Fire Chief; CNN Gets Aerial View Of Fire Destruction From Helicopter; New Evacuation Orders Issued Near One of Busiest Areas; CNN Follows The Latest Developments On The Palisades Fires; Trump Becomes A Convicted Felon. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 10, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just heartbreaking. I just don't know where to start.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything, unfortunately, almost looks like what a war zone might look like.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's like your heart's been ripped out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's apocalyptic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know what the path to recovery is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having lost our community, it's almost harder than losing our home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This community is -- they're strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been incredibly inspiring to see the support. You know, life is long and I think we have that to look forward to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amidst all the loss is an abundance of love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

We'll get right to what America is talking about tonight. Los Angeles, there's breaking news as we come on the air. The mayor of that city denies that she's fired her top fire official. That denial follows a torrent of criticism that has been directed at the city, including by the fire chief herself in an interview here on CNN. She accused the city of failing her department and the thousands who have lost their homes.

It is now 10:00 here on the East Coast, 7:00 in L.A. tonight, and night there has fallen, but the sky is still lit up by the orange glow of the ongoing natural disaster. Look at these blazes in photos and the scale of the destruction is enough to make you stand still. Trees reduced to kindling, houses collapsing under the strain of thousand degree heat.

CNN's Erin Burnett is on the scene in Los Angeles for us. Erin, you've been there all day long. Tell us what you've been seeing and is there a sense now that they are gaining some progress here in terms of dealing with that fire?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Let's start with the positive, Abby, because you say, is there a sense of positive. They have made some progress against some of the fires and they've been trying to use a window. You know, you had winds for a bit this morning and then a period of calm, and they have been using that to try to establish basically a perimeter around as much of these fires as they can.

Not much progress, but they have been felt that they have made real progress. One firefighter right on the frontline of the fire telling me just a little bit ago where we're standing in Pacific Palisades actually just up the street from me. I mean, I can see -- we can see live fire flames there. And you can see all the red over the hill. So, these fires are still ongoing.

And in the house we're in front of actually just a couple of hours ago, Abby, they had come if you can -- I don't know if you can still see the smoke, and I think you can, but they had come and been spraying all this because there's this reigniting of fires, all of that and an incredible sense of loss.

And in the beginning of your show there, you know, one of those women, when they had reunited, walking up looking in their neighborhood, that hug of compassion and just incredible loss. There are lines of people, cars where people sit all day just trying to get access to these areas because they haven't even seen their homes, and they still aren't even able to get there. So there's that incredible sense of loss.

You walk into a hotel lobby. It is full of refugees. You walk into a Target store. People are trying to buy underwear. I mean, we're just barely starting to scratch the very, very tippy top of the surface of the agony and distress that people are going to go through as these fires are still raging as we speak, fears of these winds rising in the next hours.

We went up today, Abby, up in a helicopter to get a sense of all of Los Angeles and just the sheer magnitude of the fires that are out here, as well as we're here looking at one house, what does it look like, what is devastation look like at a bigger perspective? And we went up in that helicopter just a bit ago, came back down. Let me show you what we found.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH ZALDA, PHOTOJOURNALIST: So, right now, we're south of the Palisades and the fire. Looking up, you can see this is PCH right here.

BURNETT: Pacific Coast Highway running right along the Pacific Ocean, yes.

ZALDA: And then leading up into Malibu.

And even here, it's almost impossible to see with all the smoke.

BURNETT: Yes, flying into this, it is like you're flying into a complete wall of fog. It almost doesn't even look like that. It just looks like an actual wall, like a white wall --

ZALDA: Yes.

BURNETT: -- that we're flying into.

ZALDA: There's a fire bomber just dropped retardant right there.

BURNETT: All right. So, that red that we're looking at is fire retardant. There we go.

ZALDA: Yep.

BURNETT: And we're zooming in on it. And that plane is dropping that there. So, that is an active area then in the Palisades fire.

[22:05:00]

ZALDA: Yep. That's their way of setting a defense wall from the fire progressing any further. And when they're referring to containment, this is what they're talking about, is where have they set up their defense. And 100 percent containment pretty much means that they've set up their defense in a circle around the fire and the circle's complete.

BURNETT: And that is really important to understand that containment doesn't mean it's not burning. It means that they've been able to establish a perimeter essentially that they can defend. I mean, it's using words like, again, war zone words, right? But that's exactly what it is. You're setting up a line that you're going to make your frontline.

ZALDA: Yes. You're containing the threat. You're not eliminating the threat. My in laws actually lost their house in the Palisades fire. And, you know, it's something that's very hard to comprehend because, you know, you started the week, just business as normal. And then, you know, by Tuesday night, they're wondering if their house is even still standing. And then Wednesday, you know, I was able to get up in the air and confirm that it was gone.

So, that's their house right there in the center of the screen.

BURNETT: That's their house. So, this is your in laws' house right here?

ZALDA: Yes. And, you know, a lot of memories with our three kids there. And so it's just one of those things that you just got to, you know, pick yourself up and rebuild. But you're not alone. You have a whole community that's suffering and try and, you know, bond together one day at a time. So, there's the entrance into the Getty. BURNETT: All right, that is the Getty Museum, one of the Getty family and one of the art museums in the country, certainly in L.A. And they had right in the middle of the fire area that had established a perimeter and were able to -- Dave, look right there, right there, next to it, complete devastation, total devastation. And then, can we swing back over to the Getty? There you go. Swing right back over to the Getty and you see, right there, they were able to save that.

This is the past Palisades fire in the distance. We saw another giant fire retardant plane flying through that. And then as we pan across, you can see the Smoke over all of L.A. here. And coming in here, you're going to see it, finally, the iconic Hollywood, which you can barely see now because of the smoke. Behind that is the Eaton fire. So, what we're looking at there, just over the hills, just that volume of smoke, that is the Eaton fire.

This image is absolutely incredible. This looks like the aftermath of some sort of a bomb.

ZALDA: Yes.

BURNETT: And that's just the sun shining back through the Palisades.

ZALDA: Yes.

BURNETT: It does, though. It looks as if a bomb had been dropped there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: And just, you know, watching that and thinking, you know, what we saw, it is just the sense of you have L.A. in a sense so many suburban enclaves all put together and what makes greater Los Angeles and right now just all united in this sense of loss.

One thing that Josh, the photojournalist, and Ryan, our pilot, Ryan had looked at and said, oh, that's the hill where I proposed to my wife. They were saying that there is a little piece of everybody in Los Angeles that has burned inside and that is the feeling of just complete loss that is so pervasive here right now.

When you saw those fire retardants being dropped as we saw them and also there were -- you know, the scooper planes coming in off the Pacific that load up with water and dump it, today, eight Defense Department C-130 aircrafts have now been activated to assist with the wildfires, and our next guest has been a navigator on these planes during wildfire missions. He's going to be an operational command for these missions. They have one C-130 coming into you here to L.A.

Colonel T.J. Gagnon joins us now, commander for the 100th Wyoming Air National Guard and the 153rd Air Expeditionary Group. So, I appreciate your time, Colonel.

So, when I was in the air and the air is -- it's hard to explain it, but you know what they're dealing with, right? You have LAX, you have commercial aircraft, you have helicopters, you have all sorts of fire aircraft coming through at once. And those fire retardant planes, they were coming through, you know, we saw one of them up really close, actually, we could look at it, and then just dumping massive amounts of that fire retardant. How exactly does that mission work and how much are they carrying in each mission?

COL. T.J. GAGNON, COMMANDER, 153RD AIR EXPEDITIONARY GROUP: That's a great question, and thank you for having us here tonight to talk about not only the complexities and the devastation but the amazing team of professionals that's coming together to help our fellow citizens respond to this emergency.

[22:10:12]

And so in answer to your question, it is a very complex, coordinated effort that involves multiple federal agencies and civilians as well in that response.

BURNETT: Yes.

GAGNON: And so when we're responding with helicopters and aerial supervision, it's all in coordination with the incident commander on the ground so that, really, we're just there to help reinforce what the firefighters on the ground are doing to try to contain that fire. And for the modular airborne firefighting system, the DOD's contributions to that, we come in alongside the other air tankers that you've already highlighted and we're able to speak to need to surge in that situation.

BURNETT: And so when they drop that fire retardant, and I think that the word containment, what we were discussing there, it doesn't mean that a fire is out. It means that a fire is out -- is they believe they can prevent it's spreading further. And the role of the fire retardant essentially like to be -- to creating a mass path on that perimeter, to create a perimeter. Is that essentially how it works?

GAGNON: Yes. And, again, that's all driven by the incident commander because they're the professionals that we are there to just support them in their effort to build those boundary lines that you spoke about earlier and slowing the advance of the fire.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Colonel Gagnon, I appreciate your time. And thank you very much, sir.

GAGNON: Well, thank you. And I appreciate being able to be part of this. Go ahead.

BURNETT: Yes, indeed. I know anybody who can be a part is grateful for that opportunity, no matter what your role and they are for you. So, thank you.

You know, and standing here in, in Palisades outside another home and life destroyed, you think about the dreams that people had in building a home and what a home means to everybody. Samir Chaudry lived in Pacific Palisades and has lived in this area his entire life. But buying a home was a dream, and his father said, you've got to work really, really hard to ever be able to do that, and he did. He put everything into it. He bought a home with his wife. They moved in a month ago and finished building their nursery on Monday. And his little boy is going to be due, is due, will be born sometime in the next week or two. And it is all gone, that entire house and dream. And Samir is with me now here in Palisades.

And, Samir, you drove up here with us. And as we know, this isn't -- you're not allowed to come up here, right? We were up here as media. What is it like to see this?

SAMIR CHAUDRY, LIFELONG PACIFIC PALISADES RESIDENT WHO LOST HIS HOME: I mean, it doesn't feel real. I think everyone watching and everyone here knows that when you turn the corner to your hometown, the place you grew up, no matter where you live now, that's home. Driving through those streets, seeing the shop, seeing the restaurants, like that's what home feels like. And it's pretty surreal to drive here and it's gone.

BURNETT: And your wife, obviously, and you're going to be going to the hospital in a few days having a baby, and then you don't have anywhere to go.

CHAUDRY: I don't know yet exactly where we're going to go. I think one of the hardest things about this time is that while a lot of us are grieving in Los Angeles, the loss of our homes, the loss of the life that we were living, the loss of the life that we imagined, at the same time, there's a rental market now and people are taking opportunities and jacking up the prices for rentals. And I would ask all Angelenos right now that if you have a place to rent, pick a fair price and be a kind human.

BURNETT: You talk about the grief, and I'm wondering because, of course, you're right now days away from, you know, what will be and what should be one of the greatest joys of your life, and, hopefully, looking back, will be. And yet it comes in the context of the home that you built for that baby, the home that you have spent a decade working to earn to buy is gone. How are you right now emotionally balancing joy and grief?

CHAUDRY: The thing that is keeping me going is that he doesn't know. He doesn't know that this happened. My son does not know that this happened. He'll only know the world that we show him. And so when he comes out, we have the opportunity to show him a world filled with joy and kindness a world.

[22:15:02]

That's my wife and my smiling faces That's the world that he'll know. He doesn't know this happened and it's our job to protect him from that.

BURNETT: And just so people understand you just had managed to buy this house you had saved up for it. Your parents, you said, were refugees.

CHAUDRY: Yes, my parents experienced the partition in India, in the Indian-Pakistan partition. They got displaced from their homes. My dad came here in the 70s, and he found the Palisades because of the Self Realization Center on Sunset and Palisades Drive, and he loved it and wanted to live here. First had a mobile home on Tahitian Terrace, then made enough money to buy a home on Bienvenida, and then in the 80s, bought land in the Highlands.

I was born on Bienvenida. I grew up in the Highlands. I went to Marquez Elementary. This has been the only home I've known. And it's a really special place to me. And what's incredible now is I was sitting with my parents. We're also displaced. You know, their goal was to make sure that their kids never experience that what they experienced, being displaced from their home.

BURNETT: Displaced being a refugee.

CHAUDRY: Yes. And we were looking at each other and just going -- I mean, it's a story we've told forever in our family that they were able to root our family here in the Palisades.

BURNETT: And now you're going through this, but thank God together, and with this joy of a rebirth and a restart with your child.

CHAUDRY: Yes.

BURNETT: Thank you so much, Samir.

CHAUDRY: Thank you, Erin.

BURNETT: And, Abby, back to you.

PHILLIP: Thanks, Erin. Heartbreak after heartbreak for so many families. We've got much more ahead.

Coming up next, breaking news tonight, Governor Newsom, he is now calling for an investigation into the water supply issue while the L.A. fire chief says that their city failed the department.

Plus, Montel Williams will join us to talk about what to make of all of the suffering and what to expect in the rebuilding process.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:20:00]

BURNETT: All right. Welcome back to CNN. We are live on the ground in Los Angeles and some breaking news just in here. We have just received new evacuation orders. As you hear the phone alerts go off, these are for the Palisades fire. That is the fire here. And now those evacuation orders are extending to one of L.A.'s busiest freeways, the 405, as well as the Getty Center, that famous museum, which if you were watching just a few moments ago, we just saw from the air, that museum right now untouched, but next to it is complete devastation.

Governor Gavin Newsom is also ordering an investigation. So, we're learning all of that. Also the Los Angeles mayor, Karen Bass, who's been under fire for some of the issues, the no water on the fire hydrants among them, met with the fire chief after the Los Angeles Fire Department chief had blamed the city for failing its citizens.

And where we are right now behind me, you see this house, which is completely destroyed along with everything. The air quality here is particularly bad tonight. It's sort of a -- it's a vicious acrid air. Just up the street from us, though, I can now see two bits of fire and the horizon completely red, which is much brighter, much more active fire from what we can actually directly see.

I would have the camera turned, but it's actually sort of right on the other side of the street. But there you go. That is also -- and that's right off in the distance. That is -- you can see the KABC shop, but that's what's happening right now. So, it's very dynamic.

So, when we talk about not contained, that's what we're talking about. Even though these are the hours where they are trying so desperately to get these fires more under control ahead of what they anticipate will be another round of heavy winds coming through this weekend.

Nick Watt has been covering all of this, of course, and also lives here, has been dealing with these evacuation orders yourself. Nick, we see this expansion and also, as I said, at least here in Palisades, more active close fires here tonight than we saw just a few hours ago.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRSEPONDENT: Yes. And, Erin, I don't know if you can see it from where you are, but we can just see that orange glow is that fire is pushing into the San Fernando Valley, by the looks of things.

But you know, when you were talking about the mayor earlier, I mean, the mayor and the fire chief, that meeting must have been quite something, because Chief Crowley has been on our air today being exceptionally critical of the mayor. I mean, she basically said, yes, the budget cuts that were given, that were laid down on the fire department, Chief Crowley said, yes, they did have an effect on how they handled this fire. And that's a pretty big accusation.

You know, they were cut by a few million and the chief says, you know, we don't have enough mechanics. So, we've got too many bits equipment still in the shop, so we don't have enough fire stations. We don't have enough firefighters. And also, and this is a crucial thing, you know, you see this brush all over the place, this dry brush. That's the fuel that fuels this fire. And the chief said that because of the budgets, they don't have enough people to go out to check that brush has been cut back as it should.

So, you know, crazy, crazy accusations flying around. And then you've got Governor Newsom, you know, saying he wants an investigation into why the water shut off here. I mean, they are acting because people are now getting angry, Erin. People are coming back, they're seeing the devastation and they're angry. So the politicians are trying to figure out, you know, who's to blame and pointing fingers and it's going to get ugly, because the damage here is immense and people are going to get increasingly annoyed.

[22:25:08] And, you know, could more have been done? You know, I've spoken to a lot of wildfire experts who say, you know, with this fire, there's really naturally not a lot you could have done. Chief Crowley herself said even if we'd had a hundred more engines, we couldn't have chased down this Palisades fire, you know? And water experts say even if there were another 7 million gallons of water in these tanks above the Palisades, they still wouldn't have managed to get a hold on this fire.

But, you know, the lesson that I think they're all learning is times have changed, the climate's changed, and we all need to change, and cities need to change, and preparations need to change. Maybe that's the silver lining to this, that this will be a wakeup call and stuff will change. Erin?

BURNETT: We certainly can hope so. And you can see those images there. Look at that. I mean, it's almost as if you're watching a volcanic sort of eruption there. These are live pictures from a helicopter. Chapter KABC is doing those. And just to give everyone a sense of sort of where Nick and I are, we're in different parts, of course, of Palisades.

But a few moments ago, we could see, and we can see here, live fires and just the complete redness over the horizon just feet away from where we are, Nick, can also see as he turns. So, that's just where we are right now. So, the picture that you're looking at in the middle, the shadow you see on the left, that's us in our setup. So, that's what you can see down there. And that's what's happening right now.

And just to show how dynamic it is and how desperately, as I said, they are trying to get it under control in some way before these winds pick up. And they are forecast to pick up big time at some point this weekend.

There you can see one of those planes flying over. In a sense, it seems so futile when you see them flying over just one drop, one drop, but each of those adds up to something significant.

Let's bring in the Malibu City Councilmember Haylynn is joining us now, Haylynn Conrad. And, Haylynn, I appreciate your taking the time. We've got these new evacuation orders that Nick Watt is reporting on extending now to the 405 and over by the Getty Center. You know, what is the latest that you're learning tonight as we are seeing over the horizon where we are images like the ones we're broadcasting on our screen?

HAYLYNN CONRAD, MALIBU COUNCILMEMBER: Erin, this is devastating. And what I'm looking at is the first time I've sat down and watched T.V. today because I've been so incredibly busy. This looks like Hades. This is a disaster and it's a failure of our government and I'm angry. This is inexcusable.

What I've learned today is that we have more winds coming and that the firemen that are on the ground and all these ops and the communication people, they're amazing and they're doing such a great job, but this is too much. They don't have -- the fact that there was no funding, I'm distraught. I was on the phone with the woman who lost her son today in Malibu. He stayed to fight the fire. And what I'm learning is you guys have to -- we have to evacuate.

This fire is ruthless. And we knew -- I knew it was coming. Something was coming. We just had Franklin fire a month ago. We got lucky and fortunate with the winds and the resources. We had the planes. We didn't have all of these fires. But I said that, I said, if we, God forbid had more fires, we would have been in a different position, and here we are a month later.

And what have we learned? What, the last anchor was right, we need to do better. This is -- if people are going to remain in this state, in the city of Malibu, in Palisades, this has to change. There's -- I'm just -- I'm so angry, and I'm so sad, and I'm devastated for my friends. I have 30 friends plus that have lost their houses. We've lost five people, I've heard, in Malibu.

This is -- it was avoidable in some ways. Sure, I agree, these are some raging fires and there's too many of them to be all natural to be honest, but that's my speculation. And the fact that Palisades, I just learned that it didn't have water in its reservoirs, how can we live here? I'm sorry --

BURNETT: So, Haylynn, you talk about five people in Malibu. I don't know if we even -- we don't know the death toll. I mean, the loss is uncomfortable. We don't know the death toll. I know that -- yes.

CONRAD: Oh no. That's just like what we've learned.

BURNETT: Just learning now. I mean, so, at this point, one thing that, as we're watching these fires and we're up here, I have seen people -- you know, just people line up and literally sit in their cars all day long, Haylynn, I know you know this, and they wait to try to get an escort to maybe be able to have an opportunity to come up and see their house, which has been burned to the ground.

[22:30:08]

CONRAD: Yes.

BURNETT: Is there anything that can be done so that people have a chance to understand what happened? And these people are all refugees. You know --

CONRAD: Yeah.

BURNETT: -- people are just going out and trying to buy underwear. I mean, people left their houses without their passports, without anything. They certainly didn't have underwear. I mean --

CONRAD: I know.

BURNETT: You're literally starting with nothing.

CONRAD: No nothing. Nothing. It's happening in Malibu, too.

BURNETT: At this point, what can be done for people to get --

CONRAD: What can be done? It's still a hot spot and it's an active fire. I mean, I -- I don't know what could be done. I don't -- I'm beyond words right now to know if you're in an active fire zone, these fires are real and half the city here doesn't know if their house burnt or not. We have no information.

People don't have, like, electricity. We don't have cellular service -- some of us. Some people running out of propane, there's no gas. And we understand that the gas lines, they're going to be cut for a long time and this is going to take a long time but we have to figure this out.

BURNETT: Yeah.

CONRAD: Yeah, I'm beyond this.

BURNETT: OK.

CONRAD: I'm sorry.

BURNETT: Well, I am sorry, Haylynn and I appreciate your taking the time, being willing to come on and talk about it. I know that that's hard, but we do appreciate it. Thank you very much. And now, Abby, I'll send it back to you.

CONRAD: Thank you for covering. Thank you. Sorry, everybody.

PHILLIP: Thank you very much, Erin.

BURNETT: Thank you, Abby.

PHILLIP: Coming up next for us, we have shown you the destruction left in the wake of these deadly wildfires in Southern California. Now, we're going to discuss some of that emotional pain that has been left behind for these families. Montell Williams is here. He's up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:36:19]

PHILLIP: There are two kinds of destruction happening right now in Los Angeles. The obvious one is the kind that you can see, those homes raised to the ground by the flames. But the other is the kind that you cannot. It's the emotional pain of having decades of memories, your life savings wiped out in mere hours.

Here with me is Montel Williams. He's a talk show host and activist. Montel, I think, some people are realizing that it's not always just material things when we're talking about someone's home. What is the grief like to lose everything that you've got?

MONTEL WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST AND ACTIVIST: I just by chance reached out to a friend of mine yesterday and said I hope you and your family are well. And he sent me back a text that's still reverberating to me today. It's like Montel, I am a wife, Karen, we lost everything. Thirty-two

years, we had this house, it's all gone. And what do I say back? Do I say, I'm sorry? What good does that do coming from me? Does saying our prayers are with you -- what good does that do coming from me? The truth of the matter is that there are going to be people suffering from PTSD, from this, for the next 30 years, for the rest of their lives.

PHILLIP: Yeah, a loss of security and a sense of home.

WILLIAMS: Security and that thought of just being powerless. And when you're talking 100 mile an hour winds, I am frustrated by listening to a lot of people -- a lot of people who have come on and talked, and these pundits who are saying, well, so-and-so is to blame, and so-and- so is to blame.

Excuse me. When did a natural disaster become a political -- hopped a tater to start blaming other people. This is a natural disaster that no one could have seen. I was looking at a map, and this map shows eight fires.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: Excuse me, that's the size of Manhattan -- eight fires. This is a disaster that's not been heard of.

PHILLIP: One of the other aspects of this disaster is that it's happening in California. The Palisades is a place where a lot of well- known people live, celebrities and the like. And there are some people who want to check out for that reason because they think, well, these guys can just rebuild their million-dollar home.

WILLIAMS: And what they don't understand is that scattered among those celebrities are average Joes. There are low-rent or not low-rent, but moderate-rent apartments in the Palisades. There are working-class people that have now lost everything.

PHILLIP: And in other communities like Alta Dena --

WILLIAMS: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- working class communities --

WILLIAMS: Correct.

PHILLIP: -- a lot of people of color live in that community.

WILLIAMS: Right, but the Palisades, we should not say, oh, because they're rich, well, they can deal with it. No, not all those people are rich. I mean, I have a friend of mine who happens to be well- heeled enough that they have a home in Las Vegas also, and they've been able to get out.

But that family -- the father has had some issues with pneumonia in the last couple of months. The air quality there is so bad that I don't care what color you are, how much money you make, you can't buy your way out of that.

PHILLIP: Yeah. Well, you talked about the blame game, the politicization of all of this. But there is a sense among people in Los Angeles that a lot of things went wrong. Maybe not one thing, maybe not two things, but a lot of things went wrong. And some people want accountability. Do you think that is inevitable and do you think it should happen?

WILLIAMS: How about a lot of things have been going wrong for the last 20 years? How about the fact that they still allow people to build houses and use non-fire retardant singles on their roofs? Non-fire retardant things on the sides of the house? How about the fact that they still have people who are building houses and putting rose bushes all around their house?

Excuse me? You live in a fire zone. It's about time that they have to recognize that this is a desert. If you're going to rebuild, build it with desert landscaping so that you don't have to worry about people coming in and dragging out all the underbrush.

[22:40:00]

And this is something that -- I'm not going to call it climate change, I'm just going to say truth. We've been boomeranging back and forth between deluges of tropical that the pineapple express going across jumping a lot of water. What that does is it fuels non-natural grasses and things that pop up, then all of a sudden it hits a drought, they all dry up, that's the fuel that is burning.

PHILLIP: There are so many issues that they're going to have to deal with when this is over and how to rebuild all of that land that you were just talking about. Montell Williams, thank you very much. Stay with us.

Coming up next, while the rich and famous have lost their houses, as we've discussed, a lot of others are suffering tonight. Are they getting the same attention? We're going to speak with someone who is concerned about that after losing his home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:45:14]

PHILLIP: Tonight, call it the Hollywood effect. The headlines, they're filled with the tragic stories of the bold-faced names who've lost their homes. But so many other people in Los Angeles, the ones who are not household names, have also lost it all, and they don't want to be forgotten about.

My next guest worries about what recovery is going to look like for regular people like him. Altadena resident Michael Moore lost his home of 30 years to the fires, and now he is in the process of trying to rebuild his whole life. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. You've been there for 30 years in that neighborhood. You've known it for 50 years. It's all gone now. How are you and your family coping with all of this? MICHAEL MOORE, ALTADENA RESIDENT WHO LOST HOME IN FIRE: We're trying

to cope with it the best way we can. My family is all here. My cousins, everybody's safe. So, right now, we have to go forward and we're just -- it's hard. It's hard. We have so many memories here in this community and we're devastated, but we have to move forward. And I have to keep a positive attitude towards this to bring my family along with me and the ones that I love. And it's just -- it's just hard.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

MOORE: We don't know where we're going to -- what we're going to do. We left out of the --with just basically the shirt on, on our backs, that was it. Buying new clothes -- it's -- it's starting from the bottom again. It's hard.

PHILLIP: As you start that incredibly daunting process, you've said that your community doesn't have the resources to fight the bureaucracy. I wonder, what do you mean by that? Can you tell us what you think you're going to be facing?

MOORE: Well, I don't think that we -- our officials, our representatives or our area, I don't think they really come in contact with us to see how we feel. I haven't talked to any of my county supervisor or we see them on TV, but that's it.

I mean, you see them on the screen that you're looking at me right now, that's it. But I haven't seen them in person to tell us what happened. It's my and I asked a lot of my neighbors, my house and found out what's going on. I had -- I did have -- I don't know what to say. They just -- it's just no contact with our local representatives.

PHILLIP: Well, Michael --

MOORE: This is for the census.

PHILLIP: Yeah, Michael, I sincerely hope that they're watching and that they're hearing what you just said. You and so many others in your community need that support and they need information and contact with the people who represent you. But we appreciate you coming on the show tonight. Thank you very much and I wish you all the best to you and your family during this difficult time.

MOORE: Well, thank you for having me, Abby.

PHILLIP: And on Sunday, we're going to have a special hour on these fires and all the residents facing the unthinkable in this tragedy. Anderson Cooper and the whole story will air Saturday at 8 P.M., right here on CNN -- Sunday, excuse me, Sunday at 8 P.M. on CNN. Thank you very much.

Coming up next, breaking news today, President Trump -- elect, officially sentenced in an unconditional discharge from the New York hush money trial. The question is, was it fair? We're going to debate that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:53:48]

PHILLIP: Tonight, crime and no punishment. Donald Trump is now officially a felon, but he won't serve any time. Judge Juan Merchan says in clear terms that he was hamstrung by the Constitution and by the Supreme Court's interpretation that the president has legal protections. Despite being spared from a New York penitentiary, the president-elect still sounds pretty upset about this entire ordeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (R): This has been a very terrible experience. I think it's been a tremendous setback for New York and the New York court system. I just want to say I think it's an embarrassment to New York. This is a case that should have never been brought. It's an injustice of justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Live at the table, Robert Ray, Donte Mills and Montell is back with us. Robert, I don't blame the president-elect for being upset. He is entitled to do that. But he did get off with absolutely no penalty whatsoever. Why not just let this go?

ROBERT RAY, FORMER COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING FIRST IMPEACHMENT: Because an appeal was important, I think, to him. And I think -- I hope people will accept, you know, to the country as well. You know, if -- look, if it had been me and I had been a Supreme Court justice, I would have voted to end this thing.

[22:55:01]

But Amy Coney Barrett may be right that under the circumstances, agreeing essentially with Judge Merchan, the only way for this to be tested on appeal is to have allowed that sentencing to go forward. Otherwise, what would have happened is this would have been put off until 2029, at which point there may never have been an appeal and it may have been dropped.

You know, there would have been a political cost, I think, also to the Supreme Court's reputation if they had decided to intervene here. They can always intervene later. And the four votes and the dissent suggest that they're going to keep a close eye on this. I think it's in the country's interest, to answer your question, that the appeal go forward and that there be a resolution one way or another.

And I think he's got a strong argument, as many people have recognized to test the validity of this conviction on a number of grounds that defendants in courtrooms all across the country, once there's a conviction, are entitled to challenge on appeal. And he may or may not be successful, but I think that's the only way for the country to come to accept the result in this case. So, I think that's ultimately a good thing. PHILLIP: I'm not sure the country will, you know, the country, there's

going to be half the country that is going to only accept what Donald Trump tells them to accept, and he's never going to accept that.

DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY: But here's the problem with that. So, half the country now thinks that because Donald Trump did not receive a penalty that he never should have been charged in the beginning. They're saying, oh, he wasn't penalized because he really didn't do anything wrong.

And then the other half is saying, well, he did something wrong, but he got away scot-free. So, what was the point of that? And that, to my issue with Judge Merchan, what was the -- you made this an academic exercise by saying, I'm going to ask this jury to evaluate the case, and when they find you guilty, I'm going to say, OK, that's it, nothing happens to you.

I believe he should have put in some type of penalty. Clearly, it couldn't have been probation or jail time or even community service, but do a fine. So, then you can say, there is a result to your actions and I'm telling you, you did something wrong and there's a consequence. That should have been what happened.

RAY: If he had done that, I think though the result of the Supreme Court would have been different. Judge Merchan chose the only course really that was available to him.

MILLS: If he believes he was wrong, he should stand over here.

RAY: If he had gone any further, the Supreme Court would have stepped in. I'm just telling you.

PHILLIP: So, wait, just to clarify, you're saying that the Supreme Court would have come back after the sentencing and weighed in on this?

RAY: They would have accepted the application for a stay, would have granted the stay, the effect of which is that they would have ruled on --

PHILLIP: If he had not said --

RAY: Correct.

PHILLIP: -- beforehand that he wasn't going to give him a penalty.

RAY: Correct. Correct.

PHILLIP: I see what you're saying. All right, so --

WILLIAMS: I mean, I think now that it's done, let's move on.

RAY: Amen to that.

WILLIAMS: So, let's see. A couple times, I'm in the middle of the road. I've always been in the middle of the road. I don't lean left. I don't lean right. I lean America. And leaning America, now let's make this country move forward. Let's figure out a way that we can at least have a discussion about, OK, it's done. Let it go. Move on.

PHILLIP: But I think that's exactly the question. I mean, that could be possible, but there is an appeal. Trump is still pursuing his legal rights to try to get rid of the whole thing on his record.

WILLIAMS: I don't think that's going to happen.

MILLS: Well, he's going to try. He's going to try to do it. And I think he has the right to. Everybody has the right to an appeal. But for what? If he's saying he was voted in to be president, he knows there's no penalty that's going to come to him from this, he should acknowledge the credibility of the justice system, not keep pushing against it and saying it doesn't work or it's biased because he's attacking the system that he's in charge of, right?

He should accept what it is, allow the nation to move on. He's not going to suffer any consequence from this, so why keep it going? I truly believe that he should allow it to move on, and then America can move on, just like you're saying.

PHILLIP: I mean, Robert, I'm thinking a little bit more about what you're saying about the court. I mean, I think it would have been -- I mean, it could have happened, but it would have been extraordinary if the Supreme Court just stepped in and said, we're going to intervene in this state case and kind of contravene the will of a jury that put down a ruling here. That would have been extraordinary.

RAY: I hear that and I, you know, while I said that's the way I would have voted, you might feel differently about that if you knew that you were the fifth vote, which is the position that Amy Coney Barrett found herself in.

And, look, the Supreme Court not taking this case probably is a smart move. The Court has already suffered a fair amount of blows to its reputation about being perceived to be a politically outcome-oriented. And I think if they had stepped in, Abby, as you suggest, that's the perception that would have taken over. I think they can always step in later.

MILLS: And that's where it's supposed to step in. You know that the sentencing closes out the conviction. So, until you're sentenced, you can't -- you can't appeal anyway.

RAY: Ordinarily that's right. The problem is immunity is a special category that allows for an interlocutory appeal --

[23:00:00]

MILLS: There's been a lot of special categories here.

RAY: -- that Trump is entitled to, but the problem here is that the trial has already happened.

PHILLIP: Yeah, 20 seconds. RAY: So, there's really no way to go back.

WILLIAMS: I mean, I think, again, it's time to let's move forward. He's appealing, and it's going to make a little bit more noise, but it's going to settle down. And four years from now, there'll be a decision made after he's out of office, and they'll probably say that, you know, the way that --

MILLS: Yeah, you think you're going to expect' this appeal process to take at least two years to play out?

RAY: Two at minimum.

MILLS: And we'll see what happens.

PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very much for being here. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.