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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
GOP's Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA) Will Vote For Hegseth, Increasing His Chances; Democrats Call Out Hegseth's Lack Of Knowledge On Pentagon; Michelle Obama Will Skip Trump's Inauguration; SEC Sues Musk Before Trump Takes Office; A Shouting Match During Another Culture War Dust-Up Inside Congress; Grammy's Announces Grammys Announces To Continue With February Ceremony. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 14, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, grilled on the Hill.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): I have read multiple reports of your regularly being drunk at work.
PHILLIP: From the personal --
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): You have admitted that you had sex while you were married to wife two.
PHILLIP: -- the policy.
SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): I suggest you do a little homework.
PHILLIP: The big question, is Donald Trump's man to lead American forces qualified for the job.
Plus, tick tock on TikTok. As the ban looms, is Elon Musk shopping?
And when they go low, she stays home. Why Michelle Obama is breaking tradition and snubbing the inauguration.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, Kevin O'Leary, Catherine Rampell, and Juan Williams.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. A contentious job interview, the first of Donald Trump's controversial cabinet picks is likely to be confirmed to lead America's military. One key Republican senator, Joni Ernst, now says she is going to support Pete Hegseth. But, the question tonight is, does the man who will run the Pentagon lack basic knowledge about the Pentagon and what it does? Democrats pressed him on several topics.
But I want to start the conversation with this. Hegseth now says that he supports women in combat roles despite saying this just two months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective, hasn't made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He is walking all of that back now, saying that women in combat roles is fine with him as long as they meet the same standards as men. Here's one issue with that, it's that the recruitment, at least in one branch, the Army, is being helped by women, and it's actually the men who aren't meeting the standards.
A military.com report found 18 percent a jump in women signing up from the previous year. Male recruitment increased by just 8 percent. And they also note that young men are struggling to meet the Army's eligibility requirements, whether it's physical or academic.
Even the Defense Department made a point not to change the requirements when they opened up combat rules for women, writing that the standards should be, quote, based on ability, not gender.
He was also confronted about this by a senator, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: In ways direct, indirect, overt and subtle, standards have been changed inside infantry training units, Ranger School Infantry Battalions, to ensure that commanders meet --
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): Give me one example. Please give me an example. I get you're making these generalized statements.
HEGSETH: Commanders meet quotas to have a certain number of female infantry officers or infantry enlisted, and that disparages those women who are incredibly capable of meeting that standard.
GILLIBRAND: Commanders do not have to meet quotas for the infantry. That does not exist. It does not exist. And your statements are creating the impression that these exist because they do not. There are not quotas. We want the most lethal force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us tonight in our fifth seat is Juan Williams. He has a book out, New Prize for These Eyes, The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement. Juan, welcome to the show.
Today, look, it's very anticlimactic. He's probably going to be confirmed. He's going to have the votes, but I think it did raise some questions about what he did know about the military and this obsession with women in the military that he seemed to have just a couple months ago and suddenly has disappeared, that also raises questions about whether he knows what is the source of the recruitment problem, Scott.
And according to the army, it's not women. Men are the problem.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think we have a recruitment problem across the board, A. B, I think what he was obsessed with is just whether or not the military is as ready as it can be, as ready as it should be and as lethal as it should be. That is an obsession. I would want the defense secretary to have.
The key issue here is confirmation. Ernst questioned him.
[22:05:00]
He answered it perfectly. He got it exactly right today. And everything he did today beyond this issue helped him towards confirmation. And I think everything the Democrats did today and the way they conducted themselves made it more likely that he'll be confirmed. They conducted themselves in a horrendous fashion. It was very unprofessional the way they handle this hearing today. Hegseth is going to make it largely because these Dems have no idea what they're doing.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I think what he said, what he needed to say today, but is it what he really believes is my question.
JENNINGS: He was under oath?
ALLISON: It doesn't mean a lot for some people. But he literally -- so what did change his mind? Senator Warren asked him, why did you change your position from 32 days ago? And I think the thing that is most troubling about his assertion on standards is that the women in the Army right now or in our military right now have not met those standards. So, by the sheer assertion that we have lowered our standards, which we have not, is an insult to the women who are wearing the uniform now and who have worn the uniform. And I have not. I would take offense to that. I take offense to it because they do the ultimate sacrifice.
So, I think that there -- I don't think he believes what he was saying today. I think he probably will say things. I think he will get confirmed. But when he has to make tough decisions, those clips will play back and people will have questions to answer.
The final thing I'll say is it did show that he had a gap of knowledge. And you don't need to know everything, but you should know some things if you're going to run the --
PHILLIP: Let me play what this exchange with Tammy Duckworth, where she was trying to press him on some facts about, you know, foreign policy that he probably should know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUCKWORTH: Can you name the importance of at least one of the nations in the ASEAN -- in ASEAN and what type of agreement we have with at least one of those nations? And how many nations are in ASEAN, by the way?
HEGSETH: I couldn't tell you the exact amount of nations in that, but I know we have allies in South Korea, in Japan, and in AUKUS with Australia, trying to work on submarines with them, data transfers with them, you have allies across.
DUCKWORTH: None of those three countries that you've mentioned are in ASEAN. I suggest you do a little homework before you prepare for these types of negotiations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Juan, you've been in Washington for a long time. I mean, I wonder, in the past, if a secretary of defense nominee couldn't answer some questions of that type, would that not be considered a qualification issue?
JUAN WILLIAMS, AUTHOR, NEW PRIZE FOR THESE EYES, THE RISE OF AMERICA'S SECOND CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT: Yes, but I think that the way it came across was as a gotcha question.
PHILLIP: It was a gotcha question.
WILLIAMS: Right. So, I mean, I think, you know, for a lot of people watching this said, well, you know, so maybe he didn't know that, but is he qualified? And that's, to me, the real question. Is he qualified to manage the largest federal bureaucracy, and I think it's the largest military in the world? And is he given any evidence of background in that kind of management skill? And the answer is no. But it's not what happened today. We've had one round. They're not going to have another round of questions. I think this is crazy, but they're not having any more questions.
And what he did today, as you point out, the very start was sufficient for, and I think this is what you were getting at, Scott, for the Republicans to say, Oh, well, everything's fine, you know, forget about the moral issues and but everything's fine and don't pay attention to the management issues and don't pay attention. How can you not pay attention to Tammy Duckworth sitting there minus limbs as a woman who served in the U.S. military with great distinction and you're saying women aren't qualified? But, okay, I'll do it. I'll say it now because I want to be confirmed. To me, this is like, you know, expediency.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: I think it's not only about this unexplained flip flop on women serving in the military. It's not only about the fact that he hasn't managed something as large as a Burger King, probably, but that he could not answer basic questions. Not just gotcha questions, like questions like would you uphold the Geneva Conventions? Would you refuse an unlawful order if the president gave you one, which did happen under Trump before with Esper (ph)? Would you ever sick the U.S. military on American citizens?
You know, there are many examples of questions that, yes, he was very articulate and polished, and he's a T.V. host. That's his main qualification. I know in T.V. we sometimes get confused.
JENNINGS: Why do you denigrate this man's service? I don't understand, 20 years, decorated, Ivy Leaguer. He's a T.V. host. That's all he is.
(CROSSTALKS)
RAMPELL: Not every member who serves deserves to be in charge of the DOD.
JENNINGS: She said his main qualification is that he's a T.V. host, and I'm sorry, that's just baloney.
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: His main qualification is that he's a warfighter and he's going to be the closest warfighter we've ever had to the enlisted people running the Pentagon. He's decorated, he's an Ivy Leaguer, so he knows what he's doing.
PHILLIP: Just to be clear, Scott, I hear you say that because I remember Pete Hegseth said it.
[22:10:01]
I think you should recall that there have been people who have run the Pentagon who have been in war. Even if they are officers, they have been in war. Their service doesn't get to be denigrated either.
JENNINGS: I'm not. But I think he's closer to the average enlisted man who has been deployed, and deployed, and anybody that's been up for this job internally.
RAMPELL: Which is maybe why he defended war criminals.
JENNINGS: Oh, now he's a war criminal?
RAMPELL: No. He defended them when Trump pardoned them.
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: Let me take a shot at this. This guy killed it today. He came across as a human being. I learned that this was the biggest meeting of Alcoholic Anonymous ever. We had a great job. We learned that every senator drinks. I would ship them some wine to bring down the alcohol content. This was absolutely hilarious at some moments, but he's going to get confirmed and we can move on.
I like dust on boots, a guy that went and fought, saw men and women die. And I also learned today that women are in better shape in America than men. How about that? Because they're accepting -- RAMPELL: Not for because he said it, because everybody corrected him on it.
O'LEARY: Because the percentage of those coming in and being actually allocated after being tested physically, more women than men on percentage basis. There's a lot of obesity in men. My goodness, we've learned a lot about health care.
RAMPELL: But don't you think Hegseth should have known that?
ALLISON: Then why (INAUDIBLE) say that they shouldn't serve? I think like -- yes, right, but you're not also trying to run the military. He is. So, why would he -- obviously, he doesn't even know those stats. I'm not denigrating T.V. hosts. I love being on television, you know?
O'LEARY: And I think you should say, plus, he's a T.V. host.
ALLISON: Plus he's a T.V. host, right? He was articulate.
RAMPELL: Do you think every T.V. hosts should be running the DOD.
(CROSSTALKS)
WILLIAMS: It was helpful in Donald Trump's thinking, because it sells Donald Trump and Donald Trump's policies on television, which is apparently all accounts at this. But it's not about -- and this is where I get upset. I've known several people who have run the Pentagon. I think back to my friend, Colin Powell. You're going to tell me he wasn't in war?
PHILLIP: 100 percent.
WILLIAMS: Colin Powell was out there fighting in Vietnam. And you're going to suggest that this is a guy (CROSSTALKS)
WILLIAMS: This is a guy who has his own very macho ideas about what it means to be a warrior. I don't think that it's necessarily in keeping with U.S. policy with regard to women or behavior of how we act as soldiers in combat, which is that we act within rules. And his time says, you know what, too many rules, this is about a killing machine. I think that's very upsetting to a lot of people.
O'LEARY: Okay. So we can agree, you have to be someone of service in the military, and you have to serve on T.V. too? You need both qualifications?
JENNINGS: Actually, you don't have -- actually, the only qualification of this --
ALLISON: We learned today is that you have to be a civilian.
JENNINGS: A civilian. And we have had to waive that in the past, but he has both. He has civilian service. He has military service. He's highly educated. And, you know, there's not too many people in the world who have managed, whatever, 3 million people at a time. There's a whole team that manages the Pentagon. PHILLIP: Hold on. Okay, I'm glad you made that point. Because let's play what Markwayne Mullin said about whether or not Pete Hegseth actually has to have the skills, actually has to have the experience, or whether other people can help him run the Pentagon when he gets there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): So, do you believe you're capable of surrounding yourself with capable individuals that you're going to be able to run those same ideas by and surround yourself with people that are smarter and better equipped and maybe areas that you don't necessarily carry those expertise with?
HEGSETH: Senator the only reason I've had success in life, to include my wonderful wife, is because of people more capable around me and having the self-confidence to empower them and say, hey, run with the ball, run with the football, take it down the field, we'll do this together. I don't care who gets the credit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, for someone who is obsessed with DEI sounds to me, like if we had a black or a brown person sitting in that seat and they said, well, you know, I don't really have the requisite knowledge, but I'm just going to empower all the people around me, Republicans would have a field day about that.
ALLISON: Not even about running the military. If Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson sat in front of the Judiciary hearing and said, I'll just surround myself around clerks who know the law and not me, she would never be, and not only would she never be a Supreme Court justice, she would have been raked over the coals left, right, up and down. This whole hearing was about standards. And my question just is, does he have the standards?
Now, the other thing we haven't talked about yet is you're right, most people have not run something that has 3 million people. You know, most folks run smaller companies, but it's how you run them. And from my understanding is that he did not run them well. He did not run their budgets. Well, he spent too much. And his claim is that he wants to bring spending down. But you have to understand some of the basic functions of an audit. You have to understand how to read an audit. You should have participated in an audit before if you're going to run one for the largest military.
PHILLIP: I don't think you can dispute that he was not a good manager of the finances of the nonprofits that he ran, because it's in the numbers.
[22:15:05]
It's in the 990s. It's in the tax documents.
JENNINGS: I don't know that. I mean, I see what's been reported. But I also think what's been reported about him has either been terribly anonymously sourced and maybe exaggerated.
Look, I understand why everybody, Democrats, all of you all are upset about how this went.
PHILLIP: And also the letter that wrote saying that they only had a thousand dollars left. He wrote that letter. All that was penned by Pete Hegseth.
JENNINGS: All the Democrats here are carving about are very upset, because --
RAMPELL: Please don't describe those of us who are journalists as Democrats.
JENNINGS: The Democrat Party --
RAMPELL: I'm not a paid Republican strategist. I'm not a paid Democratic strategist, somebody across the --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: Democratic Party conducted itself today in a terrible fashion. Tim Kaine in his line of questioning sounded like a sex pervert, as he went on and on and on. It was terrible. And so all these issues you all were raising, why didn't Tim Kaine spend eight minutes on that instead of spending eight minutes dumpster diving with his stupid opposition research dump? It was atrocious. And the Dems killed any chance they had of making a case against this guy. It was terrible.
ALLISON: No, I think the numbers are in your favor. So, a hearing is not probably going to be determinative since they only had one round of questioning, they didn't even do a second round of questioning. What Tim Kaine asked today is, did you cheat on your wife when you made a vow to her?
O'LEARY: Who cares? Why does that have anything to do with running a mandate in the military? He might have had multiple --
ALLISON: Whether you lie about it or not?
O'LEARY: Did you cheat on your wife? Can you conduct a war? What does that have to do with anything? Many people cheat on their wives and husbands. What does that have to do with you running a military mandate? What does that have to do with that job? This candidate is going to pass.
PHILLIP: It would be interesting. Look, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. I think if you are up for a promotion in the military, you better believe that stuff like that matters.
WILLIAMS: It does matter. And here's the thing. For marriage, it does matter when you are in the military.
O'LEARY: You just have to stay married, can't get divorced.
WILLIAMS: No, no, it didn't --
PHILLIP: No, it's not about that.
WILLIAMS: It's a matter of your integrity.
O'LEARY: Cheating on your wife, my goodness.
WILLIAMS: Let me just say, in the military, it's measured as a matter of your integrity and your ability to command other people and imbue sense of trust in others. That's what that --
O'LEARY: You're stretching that one way too far.
WILLIAMS: No. I'm just telling that's a way to --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: This is a civilian position.
WILLIAMS: No, it's not. But I think this is a bigger issue.
PHILLIP: I'm just telling you that's not made up. That's a real thing.
O'LEARY: It just --
JENNINGS: He's not up for general. He's up for a civilian position.
PHILLIP: I get it.
JENNINGS: There's a total difference.
PHILLIP: I get it, but that's --
ALLISON: Tonight on CNN, the Republicans don't care about family values.
JENNINGS: The party of Bill Clinton and Doug Emhoff don't get to lecture me.
WILLIAMS: If Republicans were talking about evangelical issues of morality, and we said, oh, we've got a Democrat here who's well known for, and then all the charges emerge, they would absolutely take him apart, Scott.
O'LEARY: Well, I've learned something here tonight. Some of my CEOs have been married three times. They should go to prison by now.
ALLISON: I didn't say get divorced.
PHILLIP: Guys, we got to go here. Everyone, stick around.
O'LEARY: What do you think happens when you get divorced for?
PHILLIP: Everyone, stick around. Kevin, give me a second. Coming up next, Michelle Obama appears to be over it. Why the former first lady is skipping Trump's inauguration. Plus, we've got some breaking news tonight as we learn that Elon Musk is going to sit front row at Trump's inauguration while he takes the oath. The FEC though is now suing him. We'll tell you why.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Five days from now, Donald Trump is going to take the oath of office again, and apparently witnessing it once was just about enough for Michelle Obama. The former first lady is going to skip Monday's inauguration. Her office did not say why, but, of course, there is no love lost between her and Donald Trump.
That snub is coming after she did not attend Jimmy Carter's funeral where another spouse made headlines. Karen Pence noticeably ignored the Trumps after they entered the White House.
Michelle Obama not going. Hi, she's done.
O'LEARY: You know, it's an insult to the office of the presidency. It doesn't matter who's the president. This is a tradition that's been around for over a hundred years. You shouldn't do this.
PHILLIP: Tell that to Donald Trump.
O'LEARY: It doesn't matter who Donald Trump or who isn't. It's the president of the United States.
PHILLIP: No, I'm saying he didn't show up at all.
O'LEARY: I don't agree with that either. You should always show for the office.
PHILLIP: Eight years ago.
O'LEARY: It doesn't matter. Then you should say Donald should have shown. Everybody should show up for funerals and for inaugurations, period.
JENNINGS: I don't really care whether she's there all that much. I mean, she can make her travel decisions. I do think this is part of a pattern of these little petty snubs. This is one, Kamala Harris won't invite J.D. Vance's wife and kids over the Naval Observatory, where she's moving children into. They've never been in it before, a clear sort of petty snub. Then when she tweeted out the picture of the Carter funeral, she clearly cropped out Trump out of the picture.
I just -- I think this is --
PHILLIP: She didn't just -- she didn't crop it. That was a picture that the Carter family released. He was behind a pillar but, yes, he was not in the photo. JENNINGS: Look, I just -- you can blame it on Trump and say, well, he treated Biden terribly. And I agree. I think Biden should have gone to the inaugural or Trump should have gone to Biden's inaugural as well. I don't care whether she comes or not, but I do think some of this pettiness is beneath these people.
PHILLIP: Can I just -- on the Kamala Harris of it all, let me just play, you know, not to explain it, she can do what she wants, she's the vice president, but here's what J.D. Vance has said about her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: It's that Kamala Harris is so asleep at the wheel that she won't even do an investigation into what happened, and she wants to yell at Donald Trump because he showed up?
[22:25:05]
She can go to hell.
But while we're not garbage for thinking that Kamala Harris has done a bad job, I think in a couple of days the voters of New Hampshire are going to take out the trash in Washington D.C. and that person's name is Kamala Harris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALLISON: Okay. Michelle Obama represents me. And I'm glad that she's not -- like if she doesn't want to go, don't go. I hear -- but I just feel like she has gone high. She's gone very high for a very long time. And I have said on this show before, when they go low, we need to match energy. We are in a different era of politics.
Also, Donald Trump doesn't want Michelle Obama at his inauguration. So he doesn't care. Like let that be his day. He won. Go govern. Michelle Obama, go live your best life. Represent the 92 of us. We showed up for Kamala Harris. And if Kamala Harris has been more than graceful with presiding over the certification of the election, with showing up, I mean, you laugh, but like you laugh, but like the last time that happened, remember the whole Capitol was on fire, crack a smirk (ph). I'm just saying like, it's not a laugh. It's like your laugh is diminishing sometimes your points, because if you just remember four years ago, we just didn't even have any of those things. We didn't have the sitting president come to the inauguration, let alone a first lady from eight years ago.
So, Michelle Obama, go live.
And let's not forget that --
WILLIAMS: I would just say, I would just quickly throw in here, you know, she's a human being. She may be sick. And that is --
O'LEARY: Don't you say that then?
WILLIAMS: I don't know, and it's none of my business. But she can make a decision.
And the second thing to say is I think there are a lot of people, to pick up on Ashley's point, who probably feel like, you know what, I really don't like Donald Trump. I don't like the way that I've been spoken about. I don't like the way I've been spoken to.
O'LEARY: What about the office of the president?
WILLIAMS: I don't like the kind of racial animus that's involved in so many of this stuff. And so maybe she doesn't want to go. Her husband, on the other hand, the former president, is doing just what you guys suggest and sticking with the formality and the tradition? But I think she has the right.
ALLISON: Hillary should go and not go either.
PHILLIP: I mean, let's -- okay. Look, the spouses are doing what they want. I mean, Melania Trump didn't go to the White House when the Bidens invited Trump just this past fall. You know, Melania Trump and Donald Trump didn't invite the Bidens to the White House in the last transition, because there was no transition. They just did not have one.
O'LEARY: Nothing good about either side doing this to the other. She went high and she lost, but she should honor the office of the presidency. I will say --
ALLISON: She went high and they lost in 2016, and she did honor and show up. And then Donald Trump went so low, she was like, I'm not meeting you in the pit of hell.
O'LEARY: We're talking about six hours of her time.
JENNINGS: I do think we are off the slippery slope of election denialism. Both parties seem to have accepted the outcome here. It strikes me that we're in a strange place where we may be getting back to normal about the way our politics works following an election. You know, showing up and doing the traditions would be a continuation of that.
Again, I don't personally care whether she goes or not. I'm sure Trump doesn't either. But I think we're in a better place today than we have been after the last several elections going back to 2000, truthfully. So, that is a good thing.
ALLISON: Early after 2020.
(CROSSTALKS)
RAMPELL: There's going to be a peaceful transfer of power. I think that is a victory.
O'LEARY: You don't go to church on Sunday, you burn in hell. That's the way I look at this thing. You've got to follow the tradition.
PHILLIP: Look, I've said this once and I'll say it again. The only time that we've had a former president not pass the baton to the person that is succeeding him was when Donald Trump did it. That's the only time it's ever happened. I'm just saying that's the only time. So, when we talk about slippery slopes, Donald Trump just went all the way off the cliff, okay? He didn't even go down the slope. He just went off the cliff. And that's why we are where we are today.
Everyone stay with me. Coming up, new reporting that Chinese officials think that they could sell TikTok's USA assets to Elon Musk, but the question is, could it actually happen? Someone at this table has their own bid to buy TikTok. We'll talk to them about it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:33:37]
PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight, the SEC is suing Elon Musk just days before Donald Trump takes office for failing to disclose his ownership of X. That allowed him to buy shares of the company at artificially low prices. But this comes as the Trump whisperer, along with tech billionaires Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg and Sam Altman, will be front row at the Trump inauguration, showing their influence over the next administration.
And it also comes as the "Wall Street Journal" and "Bloomberg" are reporting that China is considering selling TikTok to Musk. I remember just days from now, TikTok is scheduled to be banned here in the United States over security concerns.
We happen to have another bidder at the table for TikTok. But I wonder what you make, Kevin, of the possibility that they might be considering it. And we have the picture here. You were just down in Florida with Trump.
O'LEARY: Look at that suit, that Don Johnson Miami Vice suit. I look spectacular.
PHILLIP: That suit really is something, I'm not going to lie.
O'LEARY: I can't believe how good I look.
PHILLIP: But what did he think of the prospects of you and potentially, and Frank McCourt buying TikTok?
O'LEARY: So, yes, Frank and I have put the syndicate together. I've been working on this deal for two years, so has Frank. Just to clarify the Musk story --
PHILLIP: Yes.
O'LEARY: That's 40 hours old, within 45 minutes after it broke.
PHILLIP: That's what they've said.
[22:35:00]
O'LEARY: Both the Chinese government and ByteDance, the Chinese company, called it fiction. And so, let's just clear that up. And what we're waiting for on this deal, and Trump knows this and so does Biden, we're waiting for the rendering of the justices from the Friday hearing, which we were thinking would come today, might come tomorrow.
The assumption is they will throw it back to the executive. That's Biden. Biden will then have to make a decision if there's a viable bid. And the only syndicate bid I know that's viable that's been given by bankers to ByteDance and the Chinese government and every American shareholder is Frank and mine. Nobody else has a syndicate bid, an actual offer -- an actual written offer associated with the order from Congress. They have it, it's paper.
So, Biden will have to make a decision. You have a viable bidder, and this bidder has claimed already we do not want to buy the algorithm, because we know with certainty we can't use it, because it's the reason Congress threw this thing off anyways. So --
PHILLIP: Well, the ownership of the algorithm in China's (ph) hands. Yes.
O'LEARY: We don't want to own it, we don't want to buy it. We've put a $20 billion bid on the table, let's start negotiating. That can give them the 90 days. If Biden grants, he will be the executive right up till midnight on the 19th. This is a crazy situation.
PHILLIP: It is very.
O'LEARY: Frank's worked very hard with the Democrats. I've worked very hard with Trump to explain this is a bipartisan deal to keep six million American businesses lit up.
PHILLIP: What did Trump say? I mean --
O'LEARY: Trump --
PHILLIP: -- and what role do you think he had?
O'LEARY: He said to me, and I'm just being transparent, tell me why I care about this. And I said to him, because there's six million American businesses that are generating 10 billion in revenue and keeping their families alive with this.
And you also used it -- 170 million young people got you elected. And we should keep this thing lit up because I don't want to see it go away. All I'm trying to get for this company is a 90-day extension that Biden can grant it up to midnight on the 19th. And then the next morning at 12:05, I'm working for Trump on the deal. That's the story.
PHILLIP: What do you think of this, Catherine?
RAMPELL: I will say if you want to destroy TikTok, selling it to Elon Musk might be the most efficient way to do it, given that he turned Twitter, which was a $44 billion company, into a $10 billion company.
O'LEARY: Antitrust -- that's not going to happen.
PHILLIP: I was going to say, I mean, there are probably some regulatory issues.
RAMPELL: Yes, there are a number of regulatory issues.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
RAMPELL: And look, I have lots of concerns about large swaths of our population getting their news from platforms like TikTok, not only TikTok, for lots of reasons, independent of ownership, right? I mean, these are the sort of the natural selection of information on these sites is toward more salacious and less informative, less tethered to reality, right? That's what's the lie travels halfway around the world before the truth laces up its boots, et cetera.
Having this platform potentially owned by Chinese interests, obviously even more concerning, particularly since you don't know how they're going to put their thumbs on the scale --having it owned by Elon Musk, also quite concerning because you do know how he's going to put his thumb on the scale given what he's done with Twitter.
PHILLIP: Is there anybody else?
RAMPELL: So, all of that is quite concerning to me. I haven't looked at your bid, so I'm not endorsing it, but I understand the concerns all around about the change of our country.
PHILLIP: No offense to your lobbying of Trump, Kevin, but is anybody else just perplexed by where we are in the country, that business leaders have to go to Donald Trump to get his blessing, to own something that was in the private domain. I mean, are we there as a country now where the --
O'LEARY: This is the order of Congress.
ALLISON: Yeah.
PHILLIP: No, but what I'm talking about is the idea that you want to Mar-a-Lago, presumptively, because you wanted to get Donald Trump's blessing.
O'LEARY: And we went to Biden, too. We went to Biden, too.
PHILLIP: I know.
O'LEARY: And his DOJ.
RAMPELL: Listen, this is not new, though. I mean, if you look at what happened during the first Trump administration, there was a reason why, like, Sprint executives stayed at the Trump Hotel in D.C. and other people who wanted his blessing on whether it was mergers or being nicer to Saudi Arabia, a lot of Saudi Arabian government officials stayed at Trump properties. There was -- we have a record of this, that people stayed at his properties to curry favor.
WILLIAMS: The real wild part here is you're going to have Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos seated right there as if they are officials of the Trump -- incoming Trump administration. And to my mind, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the internet is basically a trash dump. And they -- it's grossly in need of government regulation. What it's done to our children, to our daughters, I think it's sinful.
PHILLIP: I think that is the opposite of what they are going to be loving.
WILLIAMS: This is a product that is as harmful as tobacco to our kids. And yet, there is no regulation. And when we think about something like TikTok, obviously the focus in TikTok is the Chinese government being able to use information.
But when you're looking at Facebook and when you're looking at these other platforms, you're looking at how these products are being used to absolutely corrupt, spin disinformation, outright propaganda, if not, and of course, pornography and hate speech. And he's going to -- and now, Zuckerberg says no more checking, no more learning.
[22:40:00]
We'll have individuals check it. Talk about craziness. This is what apparently he's trying to get Trump to buy into because Trump is driving the gravy train.
PHILLIP: But I -- I don't think, I don't really care so much honestly about whether they use, you know, factcheck.com or a person for the fact-checking. The issue for me with the Zuckerberg thing is that it's a complete distraction from the actual real problem which is an algorithm, that to your point, Juan, is making kids suicidal.
It's addicting them to being online. It's spreading misinformation. It's fueling genocides. Those are things that have actually happened, and nobody's talking about that because they're busy just kind of sucking up to the person who's in charge.
O'LEARY: You're talking Facebook and Meta here?
PHILLIP: I'm talking about Facebook in particular, but social media in general. And all of them are going to Mar-a-Lago for one reason, which is to say, we're on your side, leave us alone.
ALLISON: Yeah, look. I came up in the era of social media. It's not going anywhere and so we have to do some really thoughtful interventions that don't harm free speech but also don't do the negative things like increase suicide rate and judge youth -- for youth -- young people. We know that that is happening.
You know the hate speech is challenging because like we're -- the first amendment is what we are here. The thing that I'm interested -- I hope this TikTok thing works out because it is a revenue generator and in some ways, not perfectly, but has democratized how people have access to platforms.
We do work at my company, Watering Home Media, where we empower creators who would never have an opportunity to get briefed by members of Congress on different pieces of legislation. So, if it's done right, it could really create the next level. I hear all the concerns --
RAMPELL: Yeah.
ALLISON: -- but in a moment like this, I actually think it could be an opportunity that the best of America comes out and we look to take it to the next stage where it makes us a stronger country, it makes journalism stronger. If that's where people are getting their news, do we tell them, don't read the news or do we make it --
O'LEARY: I'll make this commitment to you right now. Frank and I will make TikTok wonderful again.
JENNINGS: So, are they committed to saying yes to you? I mean, Congress passed the law. They have to sell it --
O'LEARY: No, Trump did not say you're my --
JENNINGS: No, like the ownership of TikTok. Did they -- will they -- sell if they --
O'LESRY: They have no incentive to do anything until the justice is right there.
JENNINGS: So, if the justices say we're going to -- we're going to enforce the law that Congress passed --
O'LEARY: Yes.
JENNINGS: I have read that they had -- they said they'd rather shut down.
O'LEARY: Well, they might. That's a binary decision.
JENNINGS: So, here's my point.
O'LEARY: And by the way, if that happens, they race $42 billion worth of shareholder money.
JENNINGS: Yeah, and if the Chinese ownership, AKA, the Chinese government, really cut out here, would say I'd rather shut down something this big with this much money flowing through it then let American ownership have it. What does that tell you about the algorithm and the purpose of the app?
PHILLIP: Yeah. Absolutely.
ALLISON: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: But also not just, I mean, not just from like a privacy or even an espionage perspective, but the potential. I mean, TikTok has gone from zero to a gazillion.
ALLISON: Yes.
JENNINGS: Like 170 million users.
PHILLIP: In such a short time.
RAMPELL: A billion users.
ALLISON: But where are they going to go? This is my question.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ALLISON: Is that like, it's not going to stop those users.
RAMPELL: Yeah.
ALLISON: -- from finding another platform. Folks are organizing on there.
UNKNOWN: It just won't be on the other --
O'LEARY: By the way, you should know this. There are two books right now that are available free on the App Store, "Lemonade" and "Redbook" that are Chinese algorithms --
ALLISON: Yes.
O'LEARY: -- one owned and they are trying to use them.
PHILLIP: These are two apps that we're talking about now.
ALLISON: Yes, to push people over to --
O'LEARY: But the order is written very broadly that any executive, including any president, can use the same order to shut those down, too. So, we have the defense mechanism in place. A foreign government cannot steal a 13-year-old woman or girl's data anymore. It just can't happen.
ALLISON: Yeah.
JENNINGS: The data -- I actually worry -- I mean, I'm worried about that, too. The brainwashing, to me. I think these are real points and I would -- I trust Zuckerberg and Musk in American and friendly ownership, you know, friendly of the U.S. government far more, and I trust this.
PHILLIP: You shouldn't but does it bother you?
JENNINGS: Are they not loyal Americans?
PHILLIP: I just don't think -- these are for-profit.
JENNINGS: You compare them to the Chinese communist party?
PHILLIP: Here's my question. Trump doesn't seem worried about that very thing that you just talked about.
O'LEARY: He wants competition.
PHILLIP: He used to be but he wasn't -- he's not anymore. Does that worry you?
JENNINGS: Worried about what?
PHILLIP: Trump is not worried about the Chinese owning TikTok. He doesn't want --
O'LEARY: No, no, he didn't say that.
PHILLIP: Well --
O'LEARY: He said he -- listen.
PHILLIP: He was --
O'LEARY: Do you think Trump's on the agenda? I didn't change the Congress order the first day of an office?
PHILLIP: Yeah, but Kevin, four years ago, Trump was pushing banning this app.
O'LEARY: He wants competition.
PHILLIP: Now, he wants exactly the opposite.
O'LEARY: He wants to have competition. That's what he wants. If it goes into American hands, as we've suggested with our offer, that problem goes away. We're not even going to use the Chinese algorithm. We're letting them keep it to infect other countries if they wish, not the United States. That's the whole point.
And by the way, when we light up the U.S. under the new American laws, we're going to Modi in India and saying, we fixed it, bring back the 210 million, the Swiss, the French, the Canadians, the British, they'll all go with our version of it because that won't have spyware in it and it'll become the world's largest television network.
WILLIAMS: Before we leave this topic, let me just say, I think everybody's getting really misled on this, that this is not about TikTok and Chinese. We know the Chinese are using this for surveillance and for bad stuff. What we should be talking about is how so many of these social media apps are really damaging to us and that the Congress of the United States, Democrat, as well as Republican, has refused to regulate the bill.
PHILLIP: Yeah, they're not doing anything.
WILLIAMS: And they let our kids suffer. And you're saying, oh, well, it's about business, and it's about, I want to create opportunities for people to be creators.
O'LEARY: I have to remind you of something.
WILLIAMS: This is a troubling product.
O'LEARY: We applied to Elvis in 1956 when he went on Black and White television. PHILLIP: We don't even have a fraction of the time that we need to get
into that topic, but, Juan, you're incredibly correct about Congress' inaction on that issue. Everyone, hold on. Coming up next, we're going to talk about a shouting match during another culture war dust-up inside Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): Chairman, I'm reclaiming my time.
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): You will not do that. I am not a child.
CROCKETT: Chairman., I'm reclaiming my time.
MACE: If you want to take it outside --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:47]
PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. You each have 30 seconds to say your piece. Kevin, you're up.
O'LEARY: New idea. All that recovery aid that Gavin Newsom and Mayor Bass are asking from the federal government, tie it to a package where they both get whacked because they're so incompetent and it's time to get rid of them. I think the California taxpayer and certainly every American taxpayer would love that idea.
PHILLIP: Just going to clarify for you, politically whacked is what you mean.
O'LEARY: I mean, yes, remove their services, get rid of them.
PHILLIP: OK.
O'LEARY: The old-fashioned way. It's a wakatola.
PHILLIP: Gotcha. Catherine.
RAMPELL: So, Donald Trump posted today that he wanted to create an external revenue service similar to the Internal Revenue Service, the IRS, to collect tariffs. I would hope that one of his aides would tell him what the C in CBP stands for. It stands for Customs. We already have an agency, a 60,000-person agency that does this. Trump wants to create a new parallel agency. Apparently, it does the exact same thing, which tells you that DOGE has its work cut out for it.
PHILLIP: Well, you know, Trump likes a good name. So, that's why he's talking about it. Juan?
WILLIAMS: Right. So, a New Jersey mayor has said that he thinks maybe there should be reverse congestion pricing. You know, in New York now, there's congestion pricing for people coming into New York. The mayor said maybe congestion pricing for people trying to get out of New York. So, I'm saying we better watch out because Canada may have congestion pricing next week for people trying to get out before the Trump inauguration.
PHILLIP: And we have now learned congestion pricing apparently works here in the city. Go ahead, Ashley.
ALLISON: On the backdrop of the horrible fires that are happening in L.A., we also are entering award season. And so, today, the Grammys announced that they were going to continue on with their ceremony on February 2nd. But Beyonce was supposed to make a big announcement.
We think about a tour, but she pulled it down because she just feels like with everything going on, the last thing you need to be focused on right now is a world tour. So, it's a bigger question about how and culture and in these pop culture moments when real crisis is happening in our country, we should be handling it.
PHILLIP: Yeah, good point. Scott.
JENNINGS: OK, all right. I'm just going to preface this by saying, I've only seen the video and I've only read what I've read. I didn't, you know, I wasn't at the game. But this video of the Eagles fan berating the Packers lady -- here's a picture of it on screen, and calling her unspeakable names.
Number one, Ryan Caldwell is the guy's name. Number one, I have three takes. This guy deserves all the karma that he has coming from him, the calmness with which he called her these terrible names. I mean, it makes me wonder about the rest of the guy's life.
Number two, why do people feel like being in stadiums and sports arenas right now gives you a license to act like a complete and total jerk? And number three, the boyfriend who filmed this kind of a beta move to film it --
PHILLIP: Wow.
JENNINGS: -- not to get between your woman and the guy. I'm just saying --
PHILLIP: I was not aware of the boyfriend angle. That is crazy.
ALLISON: Yes.
JENNINGS: I'm just saying, he -- and I recognize there's Eagles fans all over and maybe he gets pummeled, but I just think you got to get between your woman and the guy. Maybe you don't start a fight, maybe you do, but he's going to have to win.
PHILLIP: I think he'd start a fight. I think he'd start a fight, actually, is probably what most other people would have done. But everyone, thank you very much. Again, Juan's new book is "New Prize For These Eyes", The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement is out right now.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, today was pub day.
PHILLIP: Today.
WILLIAMS: You know, it's an important book and I hope people take a second because it really says this is, there's a movement going on that's equal to the great first civil rights movement but people have to realize that these conversations about race are taking place and that Black Lives Matter is at the heart of it.
PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, go and pick it up at your local bookstore. Coming up next for us, see what happened when one lawmaker challenged another to take it outside during an argument.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:09]
PHILLIP: Tonight, if you're looking for a lesson in civility, do not look to Congress. A shouting match erupted between two lawmakers as the House passed a bill banning transgender students from girls' sports. But the issue of trans rights came up at another unrelated hearing in which Republican Nancy Mace and Democrat Jasmine Crockett squared off. And just a heads up, some of the language here is pretty vulgar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACE: I find it extremely rich and offensive. So, we're talking about civil rights. Coming from a party that can't define what a woman is and won't give women the right to privacy. You all want men with penises, chicks with dicks, in the bathroom with us.
CROCKETT: I can see that somebody's campaign coffers really are struggling right now.
[23:00:00]
So, she going to keep saying trans, trans so that people will feel threatened. And, child, listen, I am not sure whether - I want to find out which of those emails actually have -- Chairman, I'm reclaiming my time.
MACE: Do not call me a child. I am no child. Don't even start. I'm a grown woman. I am 47 years old. I have broken more glass ceilings than -- you will not so that.
CROCKETT: Chairman, I'm reclaiming my time.
MACE: You will not do that. I am not a child.
CROCKETT: Chairman, I'm reclaiming my time.
MACE: I am not a child. If you want to take it outside --
UNKNOWN: Mr. Chairman --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Ladies and gentlemen, your Congress at work. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight" CNN's coverage with "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
