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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Defends Pardoning Rioters Who Assaulted Officers; Ex- Proud Boys, Oath Keepers Leaders Free Tonight After Pardons; Trump Says ICE Can Now Arrest People At Churches, Schools; "NewsNight" Discusses The Issue On Immigration On Trump's Day One Of Presidency; A Bishop's Message To Trump Sparks Right-Wing Fury; Trump Gets A Payback Against Perceived Enemies. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 21, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the crimes are in the details. Donald Trump defends his January 6th pardons while glossing over the facts of their cases that he gave passes to criminals who attacked the blue.
Plus, nowhere is safe. The Trump administration gives ICE agents a green light to raid schools and churches to search and deport migrants.
Also, enemies of the state, President Trump targets his critics, a general, a commandant, a chef, while pulling a former employee's security, whom Iran wants to assassinate.
And a searing sermon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country. We're scared now.
PHILLIP: A bishop asks the president to have mercy. She receives only rage from his MAGA disciples.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, Arthur Aidala and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, pardons. Tonight Donald Trump giving the country reason to believe that maybe he only skimmed the paperwork before signing off on releasing violent criminals who attacked the Capitol and police officers. On day one of his second term in office, the president gave clean slates to people convicted of January 6th convicted crimes. On day two of his second term, the president seemed to undermine his own reasoning for putting violent offenders back into public life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You would agree that it's never acceptable to assault a police officer, right?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Sure.
REPORTER: So, then if I can, among those you pardoned, D.J. Rodriguez, he drove a stun gun into the neck of a D.C. police officer who was abducted by the mob that day, he later confessed on video to the FBI and pleaded guilty for his crimes, why does he deserve a pardon?
TRUMP: Well, I don't know. Is it a pardon because we're looking at commutes and we're looking at pardons, okay? Well, we'll take a look at everything.
REPORTER: Aren't you sending the message that assaulting officers is okay with these pardons?
TRUMP: No, the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Michael van der Veen, a defense attorney for multiple defendants related to January 6th.
Michael, your clients, some of them have been charged and convicted, served their time for more minor offenses. One of them did have a charge of assaulting a police officer. Why should that person, especially if that was done in service of trying to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power, why should any of your clients, frankly, have gotten off here?
MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, FORMER TRUMP IMPEACHMENT DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, first of all the client, one of the clients that I had that was charged with assaulting officers went to trial and was found not guilty of that charge.
PHILLIP: Right, yes.
VEEN: So, he was found --
PHILLIP: That's one of the three.
VEEN: That's one of them.
PHILLIP: And then one of them was convicted.
VEEN: And one of them was accused of putting a bike rack in front of somebody.
The reason why, and the facts of each case are different, but these are overall blanket pardons. And the reason why they're overall blanket pardons is because of what a pardon is. A pardon is separate from the judicial system, and a pardon is originally from England, an act of mercy. It's prerogative of mercy, originally.
In our country, and in our Constitution, Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution, the pardon power is given to the president, not any other branch of government. Because it's his vision as to what's best for society. It'd be the easy answer when talking about the pardons for J6 to say, oh, look at what President Biden did, and look at who he pardoned. But that'd be the wrong answer, because it doesn't address what pardons are for. What pardons are for, if I may, is about what is best for society into the future. It's not talking about the past, it's into the future.
PHILLIP: Yes, okay. So, by that token, why -- by that -- forgive me, because we have a bunch of people at the table. By that same token, why is it in the interest of society to have people who were convicted of -- I'm not necessarily talking about your clients, but in some cases, very serious crimes, very serious assaults against police officers.
[22:05:04]
We had one on the air just in the last hour who was almost -- you know, who was basically jammed into doors by someone who was pardoned yesterday.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That was Officer Hodges. We all remember that horrible --
PHILLIP: Why is that in the best interest of the country to have those people go free and have the lesson be that you can try to obstruct democracy and then get off without any consequences?
VEEN: It's in the best interest of this country because what happened on January 6th needs to be part of our history, not part of our present and our future. It needs to blend into the fabric of the history of our country. I want to say that Andrew Johnson pardoned Jefferson Davis, who was the president of the Confederacy after starting the civil war. And the reason why he did it is because you have to put the country in a position where we're going forward, not backwards. It's the same thing.
PHILLIP: There is also -- and Arthur is at the table. Is there not a principle of the justice system of deterrence and that punishments serve both as a punishment and as a deterrent? You're probably maybe the wrong person to ask --
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. When you go to federal court, which I'll be doing on Friday, on his sentencing, there's like seven things that a judge has to take into account when he sentences someone or she sentences someone, and one of them is specific deterrence, whether you're going to deter that individual from committing those crimes, and then general deterrence, the message that you're sending out to society that if you commit this crime, this is the punishment you're going to face. So, it is a big piece of it.
But the president -- it's one of the few parts of government where there is no checks and balances. I don't even think the United States Supreme Court has the power in the interest of justice to dismiss a case.
PHILLIP: I mean, he can do it. We know that. I mean, there's no question he has the absolute power to do it. The question is, is it right?
AIDALA: Well, the bottom line is, from Bill Clinton, you know, who, Marc, what was his name, the big millionaire guy --
NAVARRO: Marc Rich.
AIDALA: -- thank you, at the very end. You know, I don't always think, to my colleague, who I love having another defense attorney here, I don't always think it's for the best interest of the country. I think there's a lot of personal ideas. Trump campaigned on this. This is no secret. Nobody should be surprised that this took place. Whether you like it or you're not, he campaigned on it openly.
And I will say as a criminal defense attorney, Abby, those people who were incarcerated, they faced some horrible humanitarian conditions during their period of incarceration.
PHILLIP: Okay. That's what -- okay.
VEEN: The prosecutions were horrible.
PHILLIP: Just to be clear -- hold on.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh God.
PHILLIP: Hold up. First of all, just to address what you just said.
AIDALA: The jail part of it.
PHILLIP: Yes. Jail is not nice, okay? And it's not nice for January 6th prisoners. It's not nice for anybody else who's there?
AIDALA: There were different kinds of jails.
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance said earlier that it's not a good idea to pardon people who were convicted of crimes especially the ones involving assaulting police officers. Now, as a result of that, here's what Trump said to reporters today when he was confronted with what J.D. Vance had said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: J.D. Vance, he said, if -- this is a week ago, he said, if you committed violence on January 6th, obviously you should not be pardoned. Why is your vice president wrong?
TRUMP: Well, only for one reason. They've served years in jail. They should not have served. Excuse me, and they've served years in jail and murderers don't even go to jail in this country. Their lives have been ruined, and in many -- listen to me for a second. Stop interrupting. They served years in jail. And if you look at the American public, the American public is tired of it. (END VIDEO CLIP)
ALLISON: He served years in jail, and they did it for me. And that's why they got pardoned. And that is political, my friend.
NAVARRO: Well, they also got pardoned because he can, right? Because whether you agree with him, whether people agree with him or not, he believes he's got a mandate, he's got no guardrails, he doesn't have a reelection.
Nobody should be shocked by this. Outrage may be, but not shocked because Donald Trump, remember, he would play the January 6th anthem at all his rallies. He would call -- but he still calls them hostages. Incredibly offensive given that we have hostages in Gaza right now. He promised over and over.
So, I would say to you, look, what J.D. Vance says has zero validity. Four days ago, Pam Bondi in her confirmation hearing said that these cases would be looked at case by case. What Pam Bondi says has zero validity. There is one person who matters. And I think that the things he promised on that campaign should be taken very seriously. And if you voted for him thinking, oh, don't take him seriously, he's just joking, well, you screwed around and you're finding out.
PHILLIP: Well, by Trump's definition of this, and by his token, I would always also expect to see, you know, the hundreds of people who were convicted of the George Floyd protests of assaulting police officers to walk free, right, Scott?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they were probably -- I mean, how many were prosecuted ultimately because there were lots of people that had all their charges dropped?
[22:10:03]
PHILLIP: I have the answer for you and it's hundreds of them.
JENNINGS: I mean, I saw an analysis of that summer and most people who were charged had their charges dropped.
PHILLIP: Yes, but what charges were they?
JENNINGS: I mean, all kinds of charges.
PHILLIP: If they were failure to disperse, those types of charges. The ones who were charged with violent crimes, those charges were not dismissed. They were prosecuted.
VEEN: Well, they went into all kinds of diversionary programs. I'm one of the few lawyers in this country that represented people in those riots and on January 6th, one of the very few. And the way that the prosecution was handled between those two groups are starkly different.
PHILLIP: Don't you think that there is a substantive difference between what happened on January 6th, what they were trying to do and why the federal government has a desire and, in fact, a necessity to prevent that from ever happening again? Don't you think there's no difference between those two things? One of them was trying to overturn an election. You don't think there's a difference between trying to overturn an election and violent social justice protests?
JENNINGS: Well, social justice, okay.
PHILLIP: I'll give it to you, Scott. Let's say that they're violent. You don't think there's a difference between trying to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power and violent riots in the street of any kind, the ones in 1968, the ones in 2020?
VEEN: What were the objective of those riots?
JENNINGS: I think both groups of people were mad about something going on. They wanted to change it. They took matters into their own hands that they should not have done. In both cases, you had people engaging in activities that they should not have engaged in.
Now, our culture and our public discourse decided one group of people, social justice is good and these people were bad, but the reality is they had the same motivations.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Wait a second.
ALLISON: They have the same motivation.
JENNINGS: Sure they did. They wanted to change something they didn't like.
ALLISON: One, first of all, I don't even want to get in this debate because it's done. People voted, and as Ana said, FAFO, okay? Go Google it if you don't know what that means, because I can't say it on national television, but this is the era that we are in.
And people -- there were people in protests, they were not riots, they were protests, and there were people who showed up at the protests and did bad behavior. But that was because a man was murdered unjustly.
AIDALA: That doesn't give you the right to break into the Nike store. That doesn't give you the right to break into Tiffany's.
ALLISON: How about you let me finish?
AIDALA: Blowing up a police precinct.
ALLISON: How about you let me finish? Thank you. That's what we do at this table. A man was killed and that's why they protested.
Now, I don't sit on this network and try and both sides something. If you were violent in those protests, repercussions should be had. But that is not what happened on January 6th. What happened on January 6th is people went and stormed the Capitol because a man pouted and lost an election and couldn't stand up. Nobody died because of that election. People died because of Donald Trump's actions, and because, I don't know if the people you defend, but the people -- officers died on that day.
AIDALA: No. One guy had a heart attack five days later. No officers died.
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: Hold on. Officer Brian Sicknick, he had multiple strokes. He died by suicide. Officer Jeffrey Smith, Metropolitan Police, traumatic --
AIDALA: Okay. Do you know how many cops die by suicide all the time?
NAVARRO: I'm going to say their names, whether you like it or not. He died by traumatic brain injury and he died by suicide. Officer Howard Liebengood, Capitol Police, died by suicide. Gunther Hashida, Metropolitan Police, died by suicide. Kyle DeFraytag, Metropolitan Police, died by suicide.
So I am not going to -- and if you're going to be campaigning about being for the blue, being about law and order, you know what I really appreciated today? The very few Republicans on the Senate who stood up, people like Thom Tillis, people like --
PHILLIP: Can I play the sound, because we have it? Let's play it --
NAVARRO: Because they are being consistent to who they were on January 6th and January 7th.
PHILLIP: That's right. Let's play the sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): To me, I just can't agree. It was surprising to me that it was a blanket pardon.
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): 100 percent, (INAUDIBLE) pardoned every one of them. They've been here long enough. Both of them hadn't been charged with anything.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I do not support the pardons if they were given -- if they were given to people who committed violent crimes, including assaulting police officers.
SEN. JIM BANKS (R-IN): He told us he would pardon the Jan 6th protesters. He, that was well known when he campaigned for the job. He won a, he won the popular vote. He won a mandate and fully supported him in doing that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, there were some, like to your point. And do we have that Wall Street Journal op-ed? The Wall Street Journal just put out an op- ed tonight, basically saying this, that Republicans -- you know, Trump pardons the January 6th cop eaters, Republicans busy denouncing President Biden's preemptive pardons for his family and other political allies, and deservedly so.
[22:15:04]
But then it's shameful if you don't hear many, if any, ruing President Trump's proclamation to pardon unconditionally nearly all of the people who rioted at the Capitol on January 6th.
I mean, there are people here on the right who think this is outrageous. And so I don't think it -- you know, it's -- I don't know. Maybe some people think that you can't be pro-Trump and not oppose this, but it seems like you can. Thom Tillis supports Trump. He opposes it.
VEEN: It's not right, left.
PHILLIP: It is right.
AIDALA: No, it's not right. He's right. He's right. It's not right, left.
VEEN: It's not supposed to be right left.
ALLISON: It's right wrong.
VEEN: For the presidential power, it's what's best for our community and our society as a whole. You're right. All of those officers that died and lost their lives and committed suicide, they should be honored. They lost their lives. But it doesn't matter why you attack a federal building. You can attack a federal building because you're mad because somebody got killed, or you can attack a federal building because you're mad because somebody didn't win an election. It doesn't justify. It disparages treatment between us.
PHILLIP: Listen, I take your point.
NAVARRO: Can I say something? I would argue that letting, what, 1,500 people lose who are now emboldened and feel that they are untouchable because the president of the United States has their back, people who, many of them, have very violent tendencies because they've already shown them, people who their own families are terrified of. We have seen reports in this.
AIDALA: It's not true. What you're saying is just not true.
NAVARRO: Which part is not true?
PHILLIP: Which part is not true?
AIDALA: Abby, hold on. The vast, vast, vast majority who people were charged with a crime, they were sheep. They followed the herd into the Capitol. Yes, there were a handful of violent people, but the vast majority, those 1,500 people were people who walked in and trespassed. And in federal court, just so you know, I've never had a trespass case in my life, number one. Number two, I just have to take umbrage.
I'm on the Raphael Ramos Foundation. He was a detective in New York City who got executed and his partner. I set up their foundations pro bono. And I also represent the New York state court officers. So, I'm very pro law enforcement. All I'm saying is we need to be --
NAVARRO: pro law enforcement and be pro pardoning people who rioted against beat up --
AIDALA: You never heard me say -- I thought you should note it. You never heard me say --
PHILLIP: Just because you have --
AIDALA: Of the 1,500, it's not --
PHILLIP: -- way more than a handful, okay?
AIDALA: I bet you it's no more than a hundred. I bet you 1,400 people were charged with federal trespass, which just doesn't happen. Ask him. It just doesn't happen.
PHILLIP: Arthur, let's just stop with the hyperbole, okay?
AIDALA: It's not a hyperbole. It's a fact. I'll be in federal court tomorrow. It's a fact.
PHILLIP: You gave the impression that it's a handful of people who were charged with violent offenses. That is not --
AIDALA: They weren't charged with violent offenses.
PHILLIP: That is not true.
AIDALA: Ask him.
PHILLIP: Okay? It is not true.
AIDALA: How many people were charged with violent crimes on that day?
VEEN: Well, first of all, the truth is, the vast majority of the people that were there that day never entered the Capitol, okay, first of all. The percentage of people that did enter the Capitol are very much as you just described, people who went there to cause problems, not people who were there who was protesting. Most of the people that went from The Ellipse to there did not enter the Capitol, did not intend and never did commit acts of violence. There are more than a handful of people that committed acts of violence, but I would say that there were less than in the summer riots that committed acts of violence.
PHILLIP: Look, there were way more than a handful.
AIDALA: Of the 1,500, I want to get the number. This is CNN, let's get the number.
PHILLIP: And also why does that justify pardoning all of them, carte blanche? I think that's really the question that we were trying to -- we got to go, Michael. Thank you very much. Actually, we really appreciate you coming here and bringing that perspective to the table. Thank you.
Coming up next, Trump's border czar says immigration raids have now begun and the feds can now make arrests inside schools and churches. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
Plus, the president is kicking off his retribution tour by pulling the security detail for Bolton despite Iranian threats on his life. Is this a national security risk now?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, schools and churches. As of this evening, a new Trump administration edict means the places where we learn and where we pray are no longer safe if you're undocumented. Arrests in sensitive places are no longer off limits. And arrests may already be underway. Trump's top immigration official says raids are happening right now, though he didn't give specifics about where and when.
Joining us at the table is Jose Antonio Vargas. You'll remember that he publicly revealed his undocumented status in The New York Times Magazine back in 2011, and on the cover of TIME in 2012. He's the author of Dear America, Notes of an Undocumented Citizen, and the host of the YouTube show, Define American.
Jose is now on an O visa after 31 years as an undocumented immigrant, which is, you know, I remember very distinctly your story when that came out. But what do you make of this change to ICE guidance that allows them to -- or at least, here's how I see it. They want it to be known that they're willing to go into those places and that is part of what they're trying to accomplish is to up the fear level here in the undocumented community.
JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS, AUTHOR, DEAR AMERICA, NOTES OF AN UNDOCUMENTED CITIZEN: I think the question is, what are you going to do when people are getting arrested while you're dropping off your kid to school, like the fact that this is now going to happen in all of these places?
[22:25:05]
I think the question is, how complicit are Americans going to be when this is happening right in front of them. And to be honest, I don't know the answer to that question.
JENNINGS: What people at school?
VARGAS: Like meaning when you're dropping off your kid and all of a sudden ICE shows up with a warrant. And, by the way, they need to have a warrant to arrest somebody, right? Right now, as that was happening, all I saw today was people just making sure no your rights cards are being printed so people understand that ICE needs a warrant to arrest you, you have a right to ask for a lawyer, you have a right to remain silent, like undocumented immigrants actually have rights.
JENNINGS: Yes. I think if I were dropping my kid off at school and they showed up and arrested someone who, I don't know, had committed a violent crime or had existing adjudicated deportation orders, I would, A, wonder why they were at the school and, B, say, great, finally, somebody is enforcing the law in the United States of America, I would have no problem with this, truthfully.
VARGAS: And the reality is, undocumented people are way less likely to commit crime.
JENNINGS: But you admit there are some here that are --
VARGAS: Oh, absolutely. There are some. Like there are some people who do it.
NAVARRO: And there's no disagreement among anybody as part of it.
VARGAS: Yes.
JENNINGS: So, if they were at a school, you'd agree it would be okay to come get them?
NAVARRO: Yes, but it's not just those people that are going to be deported, right? And so, I mean, I don't know. I want to think that if it was the parent of a child who might be a friend of yours, of your kids. You know, you would feel some level of compassion. I know I would.
I think there's going to be a lot of pain. I think there's people -- there's a lot of people in this country who are part of the fabric of the country that we don't even know are undocumented. People like him, who, you know, passed.
AIDALA: Well, we do know. He's on the cover of TIME Magazine.
PHILLIP: We do know.
NAVARRO: It's legal for forever and, I mean --
VARGAS: Yes.
PHILLIP: Do we have a crisis in this country or not? 10 million people came here in the last four years. We've had no interest on the part of the last administration to do anything other than create this massive problem. He campaigned on it when he ran and wanted to invite a lot of people here. It's a crisis. People voted for Trump to solve the crisis. There's two issues. It's border security is one.
That's a policy issue. But, number two, it's an enforcement issue. And what they have said, clearly, time and again, violent populations, people who have committed violent crimes, and people who have existing adjudicated deportation orders is their top priority. I do not know how anyone, and this is what The New York Times poll said last weekend, could possibly disagree with that.
PHILLIP: Yes, I think that that's -- it is true that that's where they're going to start. But you would also agree that they've also been clear that they don't want to stop there. Tom Homan has said the priority is to deport everyone.
ALLISON: Yes.
AIDALA: But it's 10 million people. That's just --
PHILLIP: Yes, and I think we can debate how realistic it is. But they have said that they're going to start there, but they're not going to stop.
AIDALA: I mean, I agree with what you said a moment ago, though. You know, we talked in the last segment about deterrence. I think this is part of the deterrence thing. Like, don't come here. You know, don't -- I mean, you know, Mayor Adams, my mayor, he went to the border and told them afterwards, he's like, please don't come here.
I have nowhere to put you. I can't feed you. I can't house you. I can't cloth you. He did it in a more compassionate way, in my opinion, than the current administration is saying, if you come here, we're going to go into your school, we're going to go into your church and we're going to, and we're going to send you back.
PHILLIP: Can I just make one point?
NAVARRO: Scott is right, like I said before on the other issue. He campaigned on this. When people voted for him, they should have had the expectation that this was going to happen exactly like it is happening. And I think part of what's also, I think, the strategy is having people self-deport, having people be very afraid and self- deport.
Now, that means that's going to affect our economy. And I assure you, there are people that have adjudicated deportation orders, who you come into contact with that you just don't know, who probably cook your food or deliver your meal.
JENNINGS: Where were the hues and cries under Obama when he deported 7,000 or 8,000 people?
PHILLIP: There were a lot.
JENNINGS: The economy did not collapse.
ALLISON: There actually were.
JENNINGS: The fruit was picked. I mean, whatever it is you argue. I just -- I don't buy that the economy is underpinned by --
ALLISON: On this very network, somebody called him the deporter-in- chief. But I will say this. You were actually the first undocumented person that I know and we me that weekend.
VARGAS: I remember that week.
ALLISON: We met at a retreat many, many years ago, and that was after I had worked at the White House. And I actually found some shame in that because I was a public servant working and the president that I worked for did deport people.
But this is the thing about this country and particularly this issue is there's a lot of they're violent, they're this, they're that. But when you don't know somebody's story and you don't actually get to look into your eyes and say, I see your humanity, I see your dignity at you are deserving and you are given so much to this country, it is evil, easy to otherwise them.
Now, this last section, we were talking about pardoning people who had committed violent crimes. And now we're like, they're the worst people on Earth. So, it's hard.
[22:30:00]
It's going to be a long four years for years for a lot of people, but it's really hard to, like, the double standard on many things.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, but I have to tell you Ashley, as an immigrant, and I don't know if you feel like this, as an immigrant, I am particularly angry by people who come to this country as immigrants, to this great country, that affords so many opportunities to people that afforded me the ability to live in freedom and grow up in freedom. I truly get angry at anybody who comes here as an immigrant and commits a violent crime. I have zero mercy or compassion for them.
ALLISON: And let me be a little clear. I don't think people who commit crime in general are like, I'm not pro-crime.
NAVARRO: I'll tell you one of the problems we have that nobody's speaking about. A lot of these criminals that folks are talking about, these immigrant criminals are people from Venezuela where Maduro does not have a deportation agreement. He's not going to take them. People, like in Cuba. So, it's Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua.
There's three dictators there who are anti-American and have absolutely no memorandum of understanding on deportations with the United States. So those, you know, it's not as easy as it sounds on paper.
JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS, AUTHOR, "DEAR AMERICA: NOTES OF AN UNDOCUMENTED CITIZEN": The problem is the flattening of the narrative. It's almost as if you're talking about all these undocumented people like they're a monolith, like they're the same thing. And when you were talking, by the way, about holding people accountable, I wonder, so how about the employers? Like what's going to happen? I mean, to me, that's a big question. I've always wondered about it. You verify.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, as Scott said about President Obama, we did it. This is -- President Trump's not doing something unique that's never been done before. We did it not that long ago, and somehow or another, we figured it out.
NAVARRO: Going into churches is a new level.
AIDALA: I agree. Listen, you heard what I said to Abby. I don't think they're really going into churches.
PHILLIP: Hang on. Let me just say --
AIDALA: I think they're sending a message out there that they're taking this seriously.
PHILLIP: One of the reasons, look, I covered Trump when he was president. So, I've been around this block with him before. And you got to look at the details, okay? They -- ICE already had the authority to do this when they were looking for violent criminals. So, the idea that they would make this announcement is partly so that people hear it. The way --
VARGAS: Panic.
PHILLIP: -- and panic. But they already had that authority. If they're looking for somebody who is -- who is a national security threat, somebody who is violent, somebody who needs to be urgently taken out of a community, they have the ability to go into those communities. Part of the Trump, you know, strategy is about making people feel like everything that he's doing is brand new and different when maybe it's not.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I agree that there's a communication strategy here. The previous administration's communication strategy was, get here, come here, and it'll probably work out for you.
His communication strategy is do not come here -- please don't. Do not invite anyone here. Do not expect to be left alone if you do come here and break our laws. Those are two vastly different messages. I prefer the second one and as it turns out, so do most Americans.
ALLISON: Can I just say one --
PHILLIP: I want to let Jose have a --
ALLISON: The first thing Kamala said in national television was "do not come", just to be clear.
PHILLIP: Yeah, yeah.
JENNINGS: How did that work out, by the way?
PHILLIP: And she was mocked for it.
VARGAS: And again, and again, you say do not come then 10 yards in, what do you say? "Help wanted," right? I mean, half of the construction businesses in Texas isn't documented labor. How about all the farmers? One-third. No one can argue with you.
AIDALA: No one can argue with you. I don't think those are the people the ICE guys are going after.
VARGAS: You don't -- AIDALA: Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think they're going to the farms and pulling hardworking guys off. I don't think they're going to school and take the mother who just did the homework with their kid and brought them into third grade. I don't think those are the people they're grabbing.
NAVARRO: They're talking about --
VARGAS: Actually --
NAVARRO: They're talking about doing workplace raids.
VARGAS: Yes.
AIDALA: Let's see if it happens. Let's see if it happens.
PHILLIP: I don't necessarily think that you can make the assumption that it's not going to happen.
AIDALA: Let's see.
JENNINGS: Do you all agree though, if you have any --
PHILLIP: I think that he said that he wants to do it so we should assume that.
JENNINGS: But you all agree if you have an existing fully adjudicated deportation order --
VARGAS: Yes, yes.
JENNINGS: -- so, that's one and a half million people. And you all agree that if you are a violent criminal either where you came from or here, that's another -- I don't know how many.
NAVARRO: There's people who have fully adjudicated deportation orders -- who have American children who are married to American spouses, who have, well --
VARGAS: These are massive populations.
NAVARRO: -- who have American children who are married to American --
JENNINGS: I know but do you respect the laws or not? Do you respect the courts or not?
NAVARRO: -- spouses, who have, well -- my God. You voted for the felon.
VARGAS: Wait a second. Wait a second. He said that he's ending birthright citizenship which is illegal. That's unconstitutional. So, are we actually going to talk about who's breaking the law?
ALLISON: Yes, 34 felonies.
PHILLIP: All right guys. AIDALA: He's sending a message.
PHILLIP: We're going to leave it there. Everyone, thank you very much. Jose Antonio Vargas, thanks for joining us. Everyone else, don't go anywhere just yet. Coming up next, President Trump confirming that he has ended Secret Service protection for John Bolton, even though Bolton has been the target of Iranian plots against his life. We're going to discuss next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:38:55]
PHILLIP: Tonight, retribution realized. Donald Trump is getting his payback against his perceived enemies. One of them is John Bolton, who now has no Secret Service detail, thanks to the new president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think that was enough time. It's --we take a job. You take a job. You want to do a job. We're not going to have security on people for the rest of their lives. Why should we? I thought he was -- I thought he was a very dumb person, but I used him well because every time people saw me come in to a meeting with John Bolton standing behind me, they thought that he'd attack them because he was a warmonger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Not too long ago, Bolton was the target of an Iranian plot to assassinate him. And the reason why is because of Donald Trump's policy that he celebrates the assassination of Soleimani. Now he's taking away the Secret Service detail?
AIDALA: Well, Abby, I would have to think that there's some due diligence that takes place. So, in our courthouses, when federal judges try terrorist trials, they are entitled to secret, well, not secret service, sort of martial details.
[22:40:02]
But they constantly get evaluated. And after a certain period of time, they're like, okay, you tried that case two years ago. There's been no formidable threats. We've checked everything. You're safe. We pull it. And the judges get really ticked off, because it's a nice luxury to have a United States Marshal make your reservations for you, go to a hotel with you.
PHILLIP: I mean, I'm pretty sure the threats were like last year, okay?
ALLISON: Yeah.
PHILLIP: This is not done and dusted. Does that surprise you, Scott?
JENNINGS: I'm not surprised. I actually don't have a problem with him pulling his security clearance, nor do I have a problem. I'm more than fine with him pulling the security clearances for the people who signed the hoax Russian --
PHILLIP: What about the security detail?
JENNINGS: -- thing on the Hunter Biden lap -- that's fine. I'm worried about the security detail because he has faced credible threats. My assumption is the Iranians would still like to murder him. I mean, the Iranians have tried to have plots against Trump himself.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
JENNINGS: I mean we know they're active enemies of the United States and we'll --
PHILLIP: That came out last year.
JENNINGS: So, I'm -- some of this, I think is okay on the security clearances. I'm worried about the details.
AIDALA: Scott, what would Trump do if they killed both? What would Donald, President Trump do if the Iranians killed John Bolton.
PHILLIP: I mean --
AIDALA: You think he'd be like, he deserved it or you think he would be --
PHILLIP: Let's hope we don't find out.
AIDALA: I agree with -- of course everyone agrees with that --
ALLISON: I mean, do you think, do you think it's a coincidence though, that like, both of these men are very critical about Donald Trump like we're leaving one big fact out of a fact pattern that we get in law school. And since he left, they are not --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ALLISON: Did he pull anybody else's today?
PHILLIP: In the E.O., he criticizes Bolton's memoir and claims that he used sensitive information in the memoir. Bolton disputes that and says his book actually went through the clearance process.
NAVARRO: Yeah, but Donald Trump is very upset at people who worked for him and then went -- and monetized spilling the beans. And he has, again, I go back to what I've been saying on segment one and segment two. He clearly told us he was coming for revenge and retribution and he clearly, you know, we knew there was an enemies list. We knew John Bolton was on it.
I don't like John Bolton very much but I certainly think that if he worked -- that he worked for our government and that the danger he is facing is because of serving in our government and that we owe that to him -- that security. And yeah, though, you know, the reason that he's pulling that detail is not because of due diligence. It's not because -- it's simply because he's got an ax to grind with John Bolton because John Bolton was critical of him.
PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, stick around. An ask for mercy received on a bed of thorns. How one bishop's message to the new president sparked right wing fury. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:09]
PHILLIP: Ask and you shall not receive. Today, a pointed plea from the pulpit directed right at Donald Trump for mercy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIANN EDGAR BUDDE, EPISCOPAL BISHOP OF WASHINGTON: In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country. We're scared now. There are gay, lesbian and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and Independent families. Some who fear for their lives. They may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities, whose children fear that their parents will be taken away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, as you can probably see, that message went over about as well as you would think. After the sermon, Trump whispered something to Vance and then Vance shook his head. Trump would later criticize her. Here's the bishop on "CNN Tonight".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUDDE: It was a very muted response. I wasn't expecting -- I keep my expectations low whenever I preach, Erin. I don't -- and I don't always -- I can't always measure impact by body language or even what people say afterwards. And so, I have to let all of that go. I speak from what I believe I've been given to say and let it go from there. One of the things I was trying to get across is that we can actually have these conversations in a respectful way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: All right. Some doctrinal differences here playing out in church. What do you think, Scott?
JENNINGS: These woke Episcopalians or Episcopalian wokeans or whatever they're calling themselves today, this is ridiculous. This was terrible. Donald Trump, I'm sure, regrets participating in this event today to be lectured to and politicized in a church this way.
And I thought it was frankly a disgrace to what they did at this event. I don't know if this event will happen ever again because of this. This particular bishop took it upon herself to turn this into a complete and total circus and spectacle. And I don't know any Republican today who's like, oh, wow.
NAVARRO: Well, it was a very long service, right? This was like two minutes. She was very demure, and she was very mindful. And by the way, I think he was, too. He wasn't making his usual faces and you know, sighing and doing the things that sometimes he could have done.
PHILLIP: Yeah, he could have stood up --
NAVARRO: Yeah, he could have stood up and walked away.
PHILLIP: He sat there and --
NAVARRO: And yeah, he sat there and heard it all.
AIDALA: Forget about what she said. But Abby, if she really wanted to make an impact, if you really wanted to move the needle, she should have done that with him face to face, not -- she knows there's cameras there.
[22:50:02]
She knows she's going to be on CNN. She's playing to the camera the same way Donald Trump does. If she really wanted to do something, at the end she'd say, Mr. President, can I have a word with you? And then hold his hands, just the two of them, and look in his eyes and say, I think there are kids who are afraid. I think there are immigrants.
Then you actually do something. Then you're actually, maybe, get into him. The showmanship way she did it --
PHILLIP: She wanted to cause a stir.
ALLISON: For folks who don't know, this is the last event of the inaugurational ceremonies. After every -- it was one of the events I worked on when I worked on inauguration. After every night after the ball, you have to wake up really early, go to the National Cathedral. It is a wonderful service, usually an ecumenical service. I am an Episcopalian, I was raised Episcopalian, so I take offense to how you --
JENNINGS: Do you agree with what the church has become? Because it's much different now than it was.
ALLISON: I do. I think that God loves all His children. So, and when I -- when I hear preachers, the thing I ask, and one of my favorite songs is "Speak to My Heart, Holy Spirit". And what I heard her say in her explanation is that she said what was on her heart in that moment. And she could have done it the way some preachers did at the inaugural prayer, you know, Friar and Brimstone type of prayer, but she didn't. She said have mercy on people. It was a plea and he responded.
But this is what I love about our country and this is why democracy is beautiful, is that he is her president, too. And he does not have to agree with her, he does not have to act on her plea, but he does need to listen to her because he represents her and she is allowed to say that because we are in a free country. PHILLIP: Can we just talk for one second about --
NAVARRO: Pope Francis said things about immigration in just -- in the last few days that were frankly much harsher.
PHILLIP: But what she said, I mean, let's just talk about the substance. I mean, she said, think about the people who are afraid, who are gay, lesbian, I know you don't like to consider transgender people as people, but they are people. I mean, what's wrong with that? Isn't -- that is actually --
JENNINGS: What, what?
AIDALA: She didn't say that, though.
PHILLIP: No, no, I'm just saying like, the reaction that J.D. Vance got was when she said transgender. He turned his head. And the point that she's making is that people are people and let's treat them with respect and kindness. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with that message.
JENNINGS: People are people. Laws are laws. And she was asking him effectively to ignore the immigration laws of the country, which is, I guess, her political preference. And she's also asking him to ignore his own political and personal values and also to ignore the vast majority of Americans who have a different point of view on these issues.
I agree with you, it's her right to say that. I would just say I think she did her church, which is different today than it used to be, no favors today and I don't think she did her political causes any favors today in the way she handled it.
PHILLIP: All right everyone stay with me. Coming up next, the panel is going to give us a special edition of their nightcaps looking at what their first executive orders would be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:57:28]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, Executive Order edition. Thirty seconds to explain what your order would be. Arthur, you're first.
AIDALA: Well, I should have gotten your Sharpie there because if I was President Trump I'd have the Sharpie. I took my kids to the circus the other day, Arthur who's eight and Ariana who's three, and to my chagrin the only animals there are poodles. And there are no more animals. There are no more lions, tigers, elephants, horses, nothing.
So, if I was president, I would sign an executive order saying, we're allowed to have wild animals back at the circus. They are treated very humanely nowadays. There's cameras everywhere to make sure they're treated even better than they're in the wild.
PHILLIP: Wow.
AIDALA: So, I want wild animals back in the circle.
PHILLIP: How did the poodles end up in there?
AIDALA: The poodles are allowed.
PHILLIP: Very sad. Go ahead, Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, I'm pretty sure I should sign a pardon to forgive my poodle for peeing on the rug. But I think I, you know, I want to ban, listen, I want to ban calories and I want to ban menopause. Both those things, I want to ban them. But I want to ban them now. I want to be done with the hot flashes, the cold, everything.
PHILLIP: From your lips to God's ears. Go ahead, Ashley.
ALLISON: Okay, this might get backlash, but I think I would sign a kids-only section, meaning, if you travel with kids, if you're in a hotel with kids, for the kids, people without kids, we need separation.
NAVARRO: I told you Anderson Cooper used to have that position until he had kids.
ALLISON: I don't have kids, so I don't want to hear them crying on the plane. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to be afraid they're going to drown in the pool at the hotel.
AIDALA: She's not going to go through all my circus theme, I guess.
ALLISON: Listen, no.
AIDALA: I sympathize with you.
ALLISON: I mean, I just think there should be a -- I would sign --
NAVARRO: An adults-only airplane?
ALLSION: An adults-only section. Yes. Airplane.
PHILLIP: So, here's my thing about -- there are adults-only places. I've been to many adults-only resorts.
AIDALA: You have the right to remain silent.
PHILLIP: I think that they are worse than the ones with kids.
ALLISON: They are not.
PHILLIP: They are.
ALLISON: It depends on the ones you go to.
PHILLIPS: The ones with kids, they're quiet at like 9 o'clock. You can be peaceful. ALLISON: Yeah, but the first nine hours are not and so that because
everybody's exhausted because they've been running around the kids.
NAVARRO: Who wants to be in a resort where you're pretty quiet?
PHILLIP: Have pity -- have pity on the parents. Me? Okay, Scott.
JENNINGS: Wear pajamas to an airport straight to jail. Take your shoes off -- take your shoes off on a plane.
ALLSION: No.
JENNINGS: Jail. Involved in making Star Wars episodes seven, eight, or nine. Jail. Complain to your spouse after you say, don't get me anything. Jail. Put a sensitivity label on a Disney movie or "Goodfellas". Jail. Too much cleavage at the inaugural.
PHILLIP: Oh.
PHILLIP: Jail. Stare at the cleavage at the inaugural. Jail.
ALLISON: That was mine.
JENNINGS: And Taylor Sheridan must now edit and or approve all Hollywood scripts.
[23:00:00]
Day one, Jennings administration, 2028. Sign it up.
PHILLIP: Ooh, Scott took this one to heart. I will tell you that.
ALLISON: It is literally written down, people. With a Sharpie.
PHILLIP: That was very interesting. Thank you very much. I'm not sure whose world I would want to live in.
NAVARRO: I'm not sure most men would agree with you that there shouldn't be too much cleavage, anywhere.
ALLISON: Just don't get caught.
JENNINGS: Inaugural ball fine. Capitol Rotunda. Jail.
PHILLIP: I think Arthur's world might be like the least.
ALLISON: Right. He's like, who are you --
PHILLIP: All right everyone, thank you very much.
NAVARRO: I want to know what the poodles are doing at the circus.
PHILLIP: Thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
