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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Tensions High Between Officers, Judges, Rioters Over Pardons; Trump Orders Thousands Of Troops To Southern Border; Trump Already Sued Over Threat To Birthright Citizenship; An Executive Order May Cause Thousands Of Federal Government Workers To Be Displaced; New Wildfire Burns Thousands Of Acres In Los Angeles. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 22, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, a White House reception for men and women who attacked democracy. The president considers rolling out the welcome mat for the January 6th criminals he pardoned.
Plus, deployed to the border, Donald Trump gives troops marching orders while promising to punish officials who stand in the way of his immigration crackdown.
Also, the West Wing pulls the plug on the diversity wing. The MAGA war on DEI hits government workers tonight.
Live at the table, Geoff Duncan, Ashley Allison, Abel Maldonado, and Joe Borelli.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, a tug of war over January 6th. Tonight, Donald Trump is beginning his second term as president. How he ended the first, consumed by fresh tensions over the attack between cops and judges and the criminals he just pardoned. Congress is firmly tied in a pretzel, trying to recast these hall passes as a chance at redemption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The president has the pardon and commutation authority. It's his decision. And I think what was made clear all along is that peaceful protests and people who engage in that should never be punished, the prosecutions that happened after January 6th. It was a terrible time and a terrible chapter in America's history. The president's made his decision. I don't second guess those. And, yes, you know, it's kind of my ethos, my worldview, we believe in redemption. We believe in second chances. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You didn't hear a contrition or even the slightest hint of remorse from one writer, Jake Lang, only conviction that he'll land on the right side of history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE LANG, GRANTED CLEMENCY BY PRESIDENT TRUMP: In history, it will be remembered when a free man stood up against tyranny. It is no longer the age where we have to hide in America. We are back, the patriots, we don't have to crawl in the corners of Facebook and Instagram being censored. We've got X, we've got Trump, we've got Musk, we've got the Dream Team. We're back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is John Miller. He's the CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. John Miller the reality is that many of these people are violent. And many of these people are bad people. Stewart Rhodes, for example, who was on Capitol Hill was convicted not necessarily of being on the frontlines there but organizing the whole thing, organizing essentially a militia to go to the Capitol.
So, what does that mean now for attempts by federal officials to try to get their arms around what is the nature of sort of far right violence or even political violence in this country?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, working the phones today, you know, around the intelligence community, including federal agencies, big city intelligence agencies. The concern is that these groups, which they considered, you know, elements of violent extremism, domestic extremism, domestic terrorism, in some cases, depending on which group you're talking about and what set of messages, will be greatly emboldened by this.
Abby, if you remember the narrative at trial, the prosecution said this was seditious conspiracy. You basically tried to interrupt the process of democracy, overthrow the workings of government, and, you know, force a president who lost an election back into office. The defense narrative was, we weren't thinking that we were terrorists or trying to overthrow the government. The commander-in-chief, the sitting president on that day, you know, told us to go down there and do something, and we were acting on his behalf.
Now, the jury rejected that narrative, we got that, and they were sentenced to very long prison terms. But the rest of that narrative was, well, he'll come back and he'll come get us and we'll get out. And that's what's going to be emboldening, you know, in the concern of intelligence officials. The problem is none of them are willing to write that.
PHILLIP: Yes. I want to play one of these -- the ex-Proud Boy, Enrique Tarrio, what he said after he was released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ENRIQUE TARRIO, EX-PROUD BOYS MEMBER: I'm happy that the president's focusing not on retribution and focusing on success, but I will tell you that I'm not going to play by those rules.
[22:05:09]
The people who did this, they need to feel the heat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: There's that. I've also seen my --
MILLER: Remember, Enrique Tarrio was a convicted felon before he went to trial in this case.
PHILLIP: And I've also seen literally some of these defendants on social media posting the pictures of their jail guards and asking their followers to go after those individuals' names, photos, people who were doing their jobs presumptively, not saying, I know exactly what went on. But in most cases people who, when they come out of prison, there's some kind of period of time where they're under supervision. Now, their slates are wiped clean and some of these people might actually be dangerous
FMR. LT. GOV. ABEL MALDONADO (R-CA): Well, Abby, there's no secret. I was actually on the campaign for a long time. And Donald J. Trump, our president, made it very clear that if he was to be elected, that he would pardon the JSixers.
Now, I come from the -- I'm from the lieutenant governor's office, just like Geoff. And the way I look at it, me personally, is that we worked in state capitals and state capitals are protected. And for the life of me, I have no idea why the U.S. Capitol wasn't protected that day. We knew there was going to be a rally. People knew. The police departments knew. Why wasn't there enough? I was just in Washington these last couple of days, Abby. There's gates ten feet high, nobody could get close to. Why wasn't it at that time?
PHILLIP: Okay, but what about the pardons?
MALDONADO: I mean the -- look, he told America, elect me, I'm going to pardon J6, his message was the economy and inflation, but he always talked here and there about J6 as well, Abby.
PHILLIP: So, you're fine with the pardons of these violent criminals.
MALDONADO: You know, I wish it would have done a little bit different, maybe, you know, go on a case by case basis. That didn't happen. He said, get it done.
PHILLIP: It's so interesting to me. I don't understand how hard it is to say violent criminals shouldn't be pardoned for trying to have an insurrection and stop the peaceful transfer of power. Can you say that, just out of curiosity? JOSEPH BORELLI (R), NEW YORK CITY COUNCILMAN, STATEN ISLAND: Look, I'm okay that these people, especially those that assaulted cops, actually faced some consequence, but I won't cede an inch of the moral high ground on that issue, specifically law enforcement, to anybody who represents the Democratic Party in general. Because this is a party, I mean, especially here where we are in New York, you could have saw all summer, New York City police officers getting assaulted and beaten. You have Rikers Island where correction officers get stabbed, slashed, beaten every day.
And the Democratic Party here in this state and nationwide doesn't say boo. We have a Soros prosecutor who won't prosecute these people. These January 6th guys that assaulted cops, they were in jail for two years, three years, that's fine with me. If you do the same thing here to a cop in this city, you're lucky you get three hours in the slammer.
MALDONADO: California is the same way.
BORELLI: California is the exact same way. So, this is -- you know, January 6th was not a great day for America. But to your point, it was litigated. Trump ran for office from day one saying he was going to do this. The American public had their chance to weigh in. He got elected and he did it, and now we're going to have to move forward.
PHILLIP: The two in ten Americans support the pardons. That's not a lot of Americans.
MALDONADO: Well, there's no doubt, Abby.
PHILLIP: John, I mean, what do you make of what he just said there?
MILLER: Well, I think that the criminal justice reform plate laws that went into effect in places like New York and California did real damage to the criminal justice system. And a lot of recidivism is being excused by this new structure they put in. Still, getting back to the planet Earth, that's a marked difference from doing a mass pardon of people who were convicted after trials and guilty pleas of assaulting police officers and essentially trying to overthrow the government.
It's not an apples to apples, and I get the whole pardon business. The Clinton administration, the Obama administration pardoned FALN bombers who were behind a reign of terror that left people dead in cities like New York and Chicago. And we've seen that with Leonard Peltier, you could argue.
BORELLI: Apples to apples, Joe Biden pardoned a cop killer.
MILLER: But pardoning a mass amount of people and just saying, I'm giving you a pass without considering the individual circumstances of those cases, as suggested, is a bit of a shock to the system.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I guess my question is --
PHILLIP: And by the way, just to be clear, Joe Biden did not pardon a Peltier. He commuted a sentence.
BORELLI: He commuted the sentence of 37 people on death row who committed some of the most heinous crimes.
PHILLIP: Just for clarity, but go ahead.
ALLISON: If it's so bad, then why do you want to be like it? Like you keep want to comparing yourselves to Democrats. Then don't do what --
BORELLI: I think the punishment should fit the crime. If you were in jail for the past three years before you assaulted a cop, no complaints here. In New York, you wouldn't get three hours.
[22L10:00]
GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: As a lifelong Republican, as a lifelong Republican, I am embarrassed. I'm repulsed by the 1,600 pardons, especially those that were felons, and violent criminals. Let me just say this. Until Republicans start holding him accountable for his actions and actually not just showing up for reality T.V. every night when they turn on the T.V. or open up their Twitter account and say it's not okay to beat police officers over the head with fire extinguishers, it's not okay to spray pepper spray on police officers, it's not okay to launch cryptocurrencies the day before you're sworn in for personal gain, until Republicans step up to the plate and start holding him accountable, he's going to continue to wreck the car every single day, and this will be the longest four years in this country's history.
MALDONADO: Are you talking about voters, Geoff?
DUNCAN: Certainly.
MALDONADO: Because the voters voted for Donald J. Trump.
ALLISON: They did.
MALDONADO: In all seven states, swing states.
ALLISON: And you know what?
DUNCAN: Does that mean he could walk down 5th Avenue and shoot somebody?
ALLISON: Even you said it. And then everyone said, well, let me explain something to the voters. He has done nothing for you to lower your cost of living. He has done nothing for you. You know what? He wants to invite people who were insurrectionists into the White House. Has he invited anyone who's struggling from a California fire or who has or who has suffered from a hurricane? Joe Biden? But I get it. Joe Biden wasn't, isn't the president anymore. This is -- hold the guy that has the key --
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: But that's what I'm saying. All you can do is you can't be better. You just want to compare.
MALDONADO: I agree with you, Ashley. Here's the difference. The difference is that Joe Biden came out and said, I am not going to pardon Hunter Biden. He said, I'm not going to do it. Donald J. Trump was on the campaign trail saying, I'm going to pardon JSixers.
ALLISON: And I guess what I'm saying to you is when Joe Biden said, I'm not going to pardon, and then he did, I said that wasn't okay. And what I'm saying to you is when Donald Trump on the campaign, and yesterday or whatever day he did it, pardoned it, I would expect as an American, who supports law enforcement to be able to say it's not okay, but that won't matter from you.
MALDONADO: It wasn't a pretty day. It was not a good day for America.
PHILLIP: Abel, let me tell you what -- Stewart Rhodes was on Capitol Hill running around today, but here's what the DOJ says he did and what he was convicted of. Organizing teams that were prepared and willing to use force to transport firearms and ammunition to Washington, recruiting members and affiliates, organizing trainings to teach and learn paramilitary combat tactics, bringing and contributing paramilitary gear, weapons, supplies, knives, baton, camouflage combat uniforms, tactical vests and plates, helmets, et cetera. He was a ringleader of an attempted insurrection. And he's now free to roam the very capital that he tried to overturn.
MILLER: You know who has a real conundrum with this?
PHILLIP: You don't have to look deep into his file to figure that out. That's right there at the top.
MILLER: You know who this is really confusing? Cops. Cops overwhelmingly went for Donald Trump. He's the only person who kind of gave unfettered, unqualified support to law enforcement, except for the FBI, because they were investigating him. But a lot of them have been struggling with these pardons, and I've talked to a lot today who said, you know, I don't understand. They assaulted police officers, people died that day. How is this just a pass?
PHILLIP: They planned an attack.
BORELLI: But who did the FBI's agent association come out today to bash? They didn't come out today to bash Donald J. Trump. They came out to bash Joseph Robinette Biden for commuting the sentence.
PHILLIP: Well, the Fraternal Order of Police bashed these pardons and commutations.
BORELLI: They bashed both of them.
PHILLIP: Yes, I get it, but I'm saying, don't act as if law enforcement didn't bash the January 6th pardons. They absolutely did.
BORELLI: But I will say this. Trump, from the beginning, said this is an action he was going to take. And we had four years of January 6th being the sort of flag that the Democratic Party waved. And at the end of those four years, as we approached the campaign, every police union in the country had the opportunity to make an endorsement. And every single one of them chose Donald Trump over Joe Biden, every single one of them.
PHILLIP: In the campaign, J.D. Vance said that Trump would not pardon violent criminals. Last week, J.D. Vance said Trump would not pardon the people who attacked law enforcement, but he did.
MILLER: And look how fast he had to take that back.
DUNCAN: And I'll repeat, until people hold him accountable, Republicans, conservatives, moderates, even folks that were on the other side of the aisle that voted for him, until they hold him accountable, this guy is like an addict to the spotlight and he can't help himself. And so he lives one moment to one moment.
MALDONADO: And he got the popular vote, Geoff.
DUNCAN: That's great, but that doesn't mean he has a license to kill. He's not going to change. It's who he is.
MALDONADO: That's the problem. Because where's the guardrails?
DUNCAN: Let's put this in our terms. Let's say I've been a very big opponent of Donald Trump. I campaigned against him. I'm lifelong Republican and I'm going to say some things today that probably going to make him upset or people that support him upset. So, I walk out of here and somebody throws a sucker punch at me in the name of Donald Trump. If they get to him, does that mean they're going to get pardoned? It's the same scenario.
PHILLIP: It's actually a very fair question.
DUNCAN: It's the same scenario. If you get to Donald Trump and you throw a sucker punch at somebody in the name of Donald Trump to protect his name or his image, or his reputation, does that mean he gets pardoned, too?
BORELLI: In 2016, I got a battery thrown at my head attending the inauguration, and I'm pretty sure the Washington, D.C. prosecutor actually, you know, dismissed all of the prosecutions of people protesting against Trump's inauguration in 2016.
[22:15:07]
So, that actually happened.
PHILLIP: You had a battery --
ALLISON: And guess what?
BORELLI: A battery. Yes, a battery thrown at a person next to me.
ALLISON: And guess what? That's not okay.
BORELLI: It's not okay. It's not okay. ALLISON: But I guess I'm just saying, like nobody -- it's like --
MILLER: Although that really is assault and battery.
BORELLI: It is assault and battery.
MILLER: Assault and battery, literally. I mean --
BORELLI: I see what you did there.
PHILLIP: All right guys, John Miller with the information and the puns, thank you very much. Everyone else stick around.
Coming up next we've got some more breaking news, President Trump orders thousands of troops down to the border as the feds threaten any local official who gets in the way of deportations.
Plus, we are following this fast-moving new fire near Los Angeles in what could be the first crisis on Trump's watch.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, an emergency deployment to the border. Donald Trump is dispatching troops to follow through on a promised crackdown on illegal immigration. He's also now issuing threats, vowing to put state and local officials in the Justice Department's crosshairs if they refuse to go along with his federal immigration policy.
Joining us now in our fifth seat is CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. He is a former federal prosecutor. Elie, I don't think any of this would really come as a surprise, as we've discussed, a lot. Trump promised to do these things. But when you hear that as an attorney, at what are the state's options here if they don't want to cooperate with the federal government?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, this memo came out today. This is a three-page memo issued by the Justice Department by Emil Bove, who used to be Trump's criminal defense lawyer, who's now a very high ranking official at DOJ. Part of this memo -- this memo has sent shockwaves through the legal and political world. Part of it is completely normal. Part of it is the new administration doing what all new administrations doing, saying we are going to prioritize this type of crime. Sometimes it's financial crime, public corruption. Here, it's immigration. That part's normal.
The part that's extraordinary, though, is that the Justice Department says, hey, locals, state and local authorities, and, by the way, I was federal and state, so I can see this from both sides, if you get in our way, if you obstruct what we're doing, we might prosecute you.
Now, it's normal to say, okay, we're the feds. We have this priority. State and locals, we would love your help. We will solicit your help. We expect your help. But to threaten them with prosecution, that is very heavy handed. And I understand why there's been a lot of pushback to it.
PHILLIP: Interesting. I mean, do you think -- is that when -- it's unusual, but is it legal?
HONIG: So, yes, there's an important distinction. There has been some reporting out there that says, the feds have said, we're going to prosecute you, locals, if you don't comply. That's not really what this memo says. It's not a crime. If the feds call up the Chicago Police Department and say, we're going to be doing an immigration raid, and we'd like your help, and the locals say, no, thank you, that's not a crime, that's not what's being threatened in here. What is being threatened is if you commit a crime, if you harbor an illegal alien, which is a federal crime, typically, DOJ has overlooked that, that's within prosecutorial discretion. But what the feds are saying is if you, locals, if you harbor in a legal alien, if you obstruct our efforts to enforce this law, then we might prosecute you.
Now, technically speaking, that can happen legally, but it is extraordinary for DOJ to actually threaten locals with prosecution.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MALDONADO: Is the sanctuary city harboring?
HONIG: Yes. So, the harboring law basically makes it a crime if you know, and it applies to an official or a private person, if you know someone is an illegal alien and you keep them from the cops, you give them shelter, you help them, technically, that's a federal crime.
Now, one of the great things about being a prosecutor and DOJ is you have a lot of discretion and there are plenty of crimes that DOJ institutionally will say, we're not so -- it's not the most serious crime. We're not interested in that. Clearly, though, what this memo is telling. Everyone is, they are going to enforce that aggressively.
PHILLIP: Yes. So, I mean, there's a lot happening on the immigration front this week. I mean, 1,500 more troops being sent to the southern border, but he's really asked for way more than that, about 10,000. They're probably not all going to go at the same time. This is moving very quickly. Every single day, it's something new. They stop the asylum flights for people coming from Afghanistan, people who -- interpreters and their families, people who helped the United States government throughout that war. What do you make of all of this?
DUNCAN: Well, certainly the American people spoke and immigration and the border is a huge priority, and so, absolutely, they're going to work on trying to do all that they can do. There is the risk of going too fast. There's the risk of upsetting the folks that you hope eventually work with you to pass the laws.
I do think from a military standpoint, if used the right way, the military could be a great resource and aid to those trying to protect the border, but not because we want their military weapons, but because we want their vast resources and their expertise. I mean, we send the military to protect the most important borders around the world.
But if this -- you know, one of the things I called Donald Trump out on the first campaign, first term was that he built, he says he's going to build this wall. He built a 20-mile wide selfie station, right, that's Republican candidates would go down there and take pictures and act like they were doing something. If this is all about a photo op and not actual substance, then we're going to be back to square one.
ALLISON: I think the -- look, I think we do have an issue with immigration. I think we've had one under almost every president in my life, quite honestly, Republican and Democrat. And I don't think that we're going to be able to fix this through the executive office. I think we're going to have to fix this through the halls of Congress. And there was an opportunity to fix it and it fell apart because of political reasons.
Now, there is a slim majority in both the Senate and the House. And so there are going to have to be concessions made on both sides if people are actually serious about immigration.
[22:25:00]
The thing that makes me nervous about this, and I've sat at these tables before, and people said the priority are criminals and people with already -- who have already been adjudicated and have deportation orders. Well, when you start -- I think that this law can be interpreted very broadly, or this memorandum can be interpreted very broadly. If I know undocumented people, am I supposed to say, I know they're here, I know they're there, I know they're everywhere? Like what is the onus on the everyday citizen, and does that turn neighbor against neighbor?
PHILLIP: Let me play, this was from just after the election. Our colleague, Kyung Lah, went to a farm and talked to a farmer who seemed to not believe that some of his workers could be in the crosshairs of all these immigration crackdowns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Are you worried if there were a mass roundup of undocumented migrants that you might lose workers, that you might not have enough workers?
GREG MOES, FARMER, MODAK DAIRY: How are they going to do that? Nobody will be filling the shelves. Nobody will be producing food. Within two days, we will not have food. There will not be food anywhere.
LAH: It sounds like you have a lot of faith that they're not going to do what they're saying.
MOES: That's pretty much what I'm thinking. We have to trust in our officials that are put in place.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MALDONADO: Well, I'll tell you something, Abby. I think this farmer, I know where he's coming from, but I think he's wrong because Donald J. Trump is going to do something about this. Geoff said he's worried he's going too fast. He's got two years. And if he loses the house in two years, he knows that. If he keeps the house -- he's got four years. So, he's moving quick. We have an immigration problem. Ashley, as you stated, 10 million people over four years. I mean, people would cross the border, sit on the floor. They get an order for deportation. They wouldn't have a court case. And all of a sudden we got a problem here and it's got to be fixed.
And I'm going to blame, Ashley, both political parties. Both Republicans and Democrats have had the majorities in the House and the Senate and the presidency, and they've done nothing about it. And they use it as a political football to get votes in the elections. So, it's time to fix it.
PHILLIP: I want to get your take on one more thing since we have you, Elie. Let me play this from Ken Cuccinelli, who you might know. He served in the Trump administration, worked a lot on these immigration issues about birthright citizenship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN CUCCINELLI, FORMER ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY UNDER TRUMP: The application of the 14th Amendment's protections doesn't mean that upon birth, someone is a citizen.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: You do acknowledge that this is an uncommon reading of the 14th Amendment, no?
CUCCINELLI: It wasn't an uncommon reading in 1866. It has become uncommon over the years because of nothing more than conventional wisdom. But the law is the law. And in theory, it's not supposed to have changed since it was implemented.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Conventional wisdom.
HONIG: Look, I'm going to make -- I don't do predictions legally, but I'm going to make a prediction here. This effort to end birthright citizenship by Donald Trump will fail in the courts. And there's two main reasons. Number one, Boris Sanchez correctly cited the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment says, Section 1, any person who is born or naturalized in the United States is a citizen. That's about as straightforward as it gets in the Constitution.
On top of that, there is a Supreme Court decision. I thought it was old because it's from 1898, but Ken Cuccinelli started out from 1860, so this one's newer, but there is a Supreme Court decision from 1898 that addresses this exact situation, a person born here of two noncitizen parents, and the Supreme Court said, he's a citizen.
I think this is one of the -- and, look, both sides do this. I think this is one of these efforts that maybe Trump doesn't even care if he wins or loses. It's about having fun. Joe Biden did it, too. He knew he was going to lose student loans. He lost but he got to say he did and you have to fight. This is going to lose.
PHILLIP: I totally agree with you I mean, I think that it's designed to fail, and including in how broad it goes to include people who are visa holders in this country.
Elie Honig, great to have you, as always, thank you very much. Everyone else, hang tight.
Coming up next, the government's DEI officials are officially out at the direction of President Trump. What does this mean practically for the workforce of the federal government? We'll debate that next.
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[22:33:43]
PHILLIP: Tonight, excluded. The diversity, equity and inclusion employees inside the federal government are now on administrative leave and they believe a Tuesday memo, and they will soon be out of a job, is what they think.
The DEI offices in the government will be shuttered. That memo makes clear how the Trump administration sees these offices, referring to them as dangerous, demeaning, immoral, illegal, corrosive, pernicious, identity-based spoil system.
Joining us at the table is Alfonso David. He's the president and CEO of the Global Black Economic Forum. Alfonso, welcome to the show. This was as many things that Trump is doing, telegraphed, right? What do you think are going to be the consequences for the American people as a result of all of this?
ALFONSO DAVID, PRESIDENT AND CEO GLOBAL BLACK ECONOMIC FORUM: There are significant consequences to the executive order that's been issued. First, I think we have to remember the thousands of people that work in the federal government who are now going to be displaced.
These are folks who are well-trained to address issues within their agencies and within larger society, really thinking about how do we diversify the workforce? How do we address issues within national security or emergency management? And those folks are going to be displaced, placed on administrative leave effectively today.
[22:35:00]
Second, I think we have to be mindful that the narrative that we're seeing coming out of the Trump administration effectively says that every black and brown person is a DEI hire, which means unqualified, right? And that is a very dangerous message to send. We saw this with Ketanji Brown Jackson, the U.S. Supreme Court Justice. We saw this with Vice President Harris.
We are seeing this in so many different sectors where women of color, people of color, generally, are being classified as unqualified, even though they are immensely qualified. And I think we will see a corrosive impact, not only in government, but in the private sector, as well.
PHILLIP: One of the other extraordinary things that happened today, there was this memo from the Office of Personnel Management basically telling workers to snitch on each other. We are aware of some efforts in the government to disguise these programs by using coded or imprecise language. They're saying report it and failure to report this information within 10 days may result in adverse consequences. Yikes. It's a pretty heavy hand.
DAVID: It is a heavy hand and I think we have to remember there is the Constitution, there are federal statutes, the President certainly has the right to issue executive orders. He has the right to issue agency memos, but the executive orders and agency memos do not supersede the Constitution and they do not supersede federal law.
PHILLIP: And when we talk about diversity, I think people often think it's just about race, but it's about a lot of things. People with disabilities, women, LGBTQ individuals, people in rural areas. People who are pregnant, all kinds of different aspects of this. But everything is getting kind of wiped away with a clean slate at this point. And the consequences are that things that you don't even know those individuals are working on will suddenly stop.
ALLISON: Yeah, I used to work in the White House and part of this is there is an assumption, to Alfonso's point, that the people that are there, they have not done it by merit. They have not done it because they have worked hard and they are the best to be in that seat.
But a lot of the diversity, equity and inclusion efforts is about recruitment. It's about taking the extra effort to go to a place that you might not go. You might just want to post it on social media, but maybe go to a farmer's market and recruit people, or go to a HBCU and recruit people so people know about the opportunities.
Folks go through, if you've ever tried to get hired in the federal government, it's like one of the hardest places actually to penetrate. It's not a hand-me-out type of job you get, but the folks who are doing it, they're also -- these were not political appointees that he did the suit. These were public servants who decided to work for their country.
And to (inaudible) they might not just be displaced, they might be unemployed, which is adding to the unemployment issue within our country and people being able to afford things, which I thought Donald Trump (inaudible).
DUNCAN: It's interesting to see the federal government dealing with this, obviously the way Donald Trump is not -- any -- no CEO would handle this the way he's doing it right now, but it's what they've elected, the majority of Americans have.
It's interesting to see the private sector dealing with this, and I think you see a lot of large corporations, publicly traded corporations trying to work through and better define what DEI looks like inside their organization.
And I think the places that are going to be most successful are the ones that weave this into the very fiber of their organization, not just because it's mandated, not because there's a one-size fits all definition for DEI. And I think as we work through the federal government, ripping this scab off this quickly doesn't -- it feels like it's more about making a point than making a difference.
PHILLIP: They're also asking the federal government to basically pressure private entities to end DEI within their private corporations. But to your point, Geoff, there are a bunch of companies who've actually defended their use of DEI in their hiring and in their management of their companies -- Costco, Apple, Pinterest, Microsoft. They basically said, get out of our business, this is working for us. Why is the federal government trying to push companies to run themselves in ways that Donald Trump wants them to?
MALDONADO: I think President Trump has actually stated he's focused and drilled in the merit. It's all about merit. He's made it very clear. If you work hard and you're going to do a great job, I'm not going to look at the color of your skin or you're going to get the job.
And it's like, he, I mean, I've watched him, I've watched him talk and I've watched him in the campaign talk about how he feels that it's, we're going to hire the best of the best and it's going to be driven by merit and merit only. I happen to be Hispanic and I became the lieutenant governor of California. And I want to believe that happened because of my hard work, my dedication, being disciplined and sharing.
UNKNOWN: And your good looks.
MALDONADO: I don't know about the good looks, but I can tell you this, it -- it's how I feel.
[22:40:00]
So, I think the opportunities for everybody. Now, when Alfonso talks about some people are going to get hurt. I don't see it that way. I just respectfully disagree with you. I think that if they are hard workers and they're disciplined and they're very, very brilliantly smart, they're going to get the job, they're going to stay in that job.
BORELLI: There's a big gap between discrimination in the workplace, which everyone is against, right? And the sort of DEI components in these companies, in the federal government, that essentially has become bastardized over the years into just woke in the workplace.
And that's what the American public is sick of. That's what 20, 30 companies over the last year have gotten sick of. They've spent countless dollars and time recruiting DEI workforces, and many of these companies decided it's simply not valuable to them anymore. I don't, you know, look.
PHILLIP: I mean, you say that, but the reality is that there are studies that find that companies that are more diverse actually do better. And the pressure is coming from the outside. People like Robbie Starbuck, who are literally going into boards and pressuring them. It would be one thing if companies were pulling back on their own, but they're actually pulling back because of political pressure.
BORELLI: Diversity is great, but there shouldn't be cancel culture at work because you have people who disagree with you.
PHILLIP: I get it, but I just your point, you know, it's not, again, the companies want to make money. They have a fiduciary responsibility to do that. Again, I don't think they would be doing this if they didn't think it was necessary for their businesses.
DAVID: Abby, this conversation actually highlights what I think is so dangerous, right? What you're suggesting is that merit and minority applicants are mutually exclusive. That's what you're suggesting. You're saying that if I'm a minority candidate, that means I'm actually unqualified, right?
UNKNOWN: No, I don't think he is at all. I don't think he is at all.
MALDONADO: That's not what we're saying.
UNKNOWN: You said that.
DAVID: Let's look at the facts.
MALDONADO: I didn't say that.
DAVID: Why is it the majority of people who run Fortune 500 companies are white men?
MALDONADO: There you go. I mean, it just --
DAVID: Why is that?
ALLSION: No, why is it?
DAVID: Why are they? Why do we only have two black women that are running Fortune 500 companies? Are you telling me?
MALDONADO: We got to work harder.
DAVID: No, no.
ALLISON: Why does Donald Trump only appoint one black person to his cabinet?
DAVID: You can't tell me that we have to work harder.
PHILLIP: So, you're saying that black, brown people, women are not working hard enough and that's why they're not in --
MALDONADO: Absolutely not.
DAVID: You just said -- PHILLIP: You just said we got to work harder.
MALDONADO: I'm an American.
DAVID: Why is it that we only have two black women that are running Fortune 500 companies? Answer that question for me.
MALDONADO: Well, I mean, I don't know how the hiring process was in that company, I can tell you that, but all I'm telling you is that there's a lot of black women who serve in the legislature, I mean, we had a black woman vice president. I mean, she earned it. She worked hard.
ALLISON: She did.
MALDONADO: It wasn't given it to her.
PHILLIP: You sat at this table many times when basically, the Republican Party, Donald Trump, his vice president called her a DEI hire, as she was not a --
MALDONADO: I didn't her -- a DEI hire.
PHILLIP: I'm not talking about you. I said, the people running for office against her called her a DEI hire. To your point, everything is being blamed on DEI. California fires -- DEI. Trump's shooting, the rally at the Trump shooting -- DEI, even though the head of his detail is a white man. Right-wing commentators at -- talking about plane safety -- same planes are going to crash because of DEI?
BORELLI: But to that point you had a video of a firefighter in Los Angeles, right? Talking about the diversity in recruitment and saying that a person who gets themselves trapped in a fire is their own fault.
PHILLIP: OK. Hold on, hold on.
BORELLI: You have to see how ridiculous the American public views that.
PHILLIP: OK, that happened. OK, that happened.
BORELLI: That happened.
PHILLIP: But Joe, did they cause the wildfire?
BORELLI: No one caused the wildfire. But the question of whether the person is confident to leave at the time.
PHILLIP: Did that individual or even that ideology prevent the Los Angeles Fire Department from putting out a wildfire -- five wildfires in the city of Los Angeles?
BORELLI: But it's saying -- that particular firefighter is saying that she -- I don't want to misgender her, I'll get in trouble --
PHILLIP: What does that have anything --
BORELLI: But she is unable to lift someone out of a fire and it's the person's fault.
PHILLIP: What does that have anything to do with the wildfires and the ability to stop them?
BORELLI: I think a person's ability to carry someone out of a fire is a pretty good requisite -- pre- requisite to be a firefighter.
PHILLIP: OK. I'm talking about the wildfires and the ability to stop them. What does that have to do with that?
BORELLI: I don't think DEI was responsible for setting a fire. That's not what they were saying.
PHILLIP: It clearly was not.
ALLISON: But that's what people say.
PHILLIP: And it clearly was not responsible for -- being able to fight fire, as well.
ALLISON: Also, also, I hear you and I'm glad you don't think discrimination should happen. But our sitting president actually does because he discriminated against black people. He did not want them to be able to run from him.
And he has yet to repent for it and say it is wrong. It is something that is woven into our country. And I understand that folks feel like DEI has gone too far. But disparities exist for a reason, and DEI was a tactic to ensure that people had equal opportunity.
Now, I think the numbers will speak for themselves. I think -- and I also, again, this goes back to the immigration thing. This whole, like, snitch on people that Donald Trump, they better be careful, because Donald Trump sits next to people that might get snitched on themselves.
[22:45:02]
DAVID: Snitches get stitches, be careful.
ALLISON: I didn't want to say it, I was waiting for you. You're from New York.
DAVID: Let's talk about equal opportunity, right? Because this is what this is all about. It's about opening up the doors and removing the barriers that have existed for decades, right? There is a reason why black people in this country only have 15 percent of the wealth as white people. So, what are you telling us? Are you telling us that we are unqualified, unsmart, that we're not actually operating based on merit? Why is it that we have a culture?
PHILLIP: There was affirmative action for white men for literally hundreds of years in this country. For hundreds of years, there was affirmative action for white men. And to answer your question, because my friend Abel would not, it is not because they're not working hard enough.
It's because for centuries, they were locked out of education. For centuries, they were locked out of economic mobility. They couldn't even build wealth. They were set free in this country after being enslaved for hundreds of years with nothing. Nothing. And then they were subject to another hundred years of Jim Crow. So look, there are a lot of reasons for it, but it's not because they're not working on that.
ALLISON: Can I just say, it is -- it perpetuates -- it's generation to generation. I would just encourage people who disagree with DEI to take time to sit down and have a conversation with a person of color who feels like DEI has helped them or has been discriminated against. Because again, when you put a face behind an actual issue, it makes you understand that issue better.
PHILLIP: All right, Alfonso David, thank you very much for joining us for that conversation. Everyone else, hold on. Coming up next, breaking news tonight, a wildfire, a new one in Los Angeles is burning thousands of acres in what could be Trump's first crisis. CNN is live on the scene with a report.
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(22:51:12)
PHILLIP: Tonight, here we go again for Los Angeles, a searing sense of deja vu as there is another major wildfire forcing evacuations and triggering fears about lost homes and lost lives. CNN's Veronica Miracle is there for us. Veronica, do already overworked, exhausted firefighters have any of this new fire contained?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, tonight there is zero percent containment, unfortunately. However, there are 4000 firefighters on this fire and that doesn't include the air tankers and the personnel in the air that are attacking this from the sky. I'm just going to step aside here so you can look at where a lot of the main flames are right now on one side of this area.
There is an animal shelter on the other. There are some homes, though this is not a densely populated area. There are, though, a lot of firefighters attacking this. They're setting up a perimeter. They're trying to make sure that the fire burns in an area where they can get rid of a lot of the brush that it's burning right now and then keep it from moving towards residential zones.
We've seen bulldozers making big lines around certain areas to make sure that homes are protected tonight. Thirty-four -- thirty-one thousand, rather, people remain under mandatory evacuation orders. Another 20,000 or so are under evacuation warnings.
And so, a lot of people are on edge tonight, as you can imagine, after the two major fires in the last few weeks. The Palisades and the Eaton fires are still on everyone's minds. Back to you, Abby. PHILLIP: Another incredibly scary night for Los Angeles. We're
thinking about everybody on that side of the country. Veronica Miracle, thank you very much. Stay safe. Coming up next, we have much more at the top of the hour with Laura Coates on that story. Back in a moment.
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[22:57:39]
PHILLIP: And we are back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, Hall of Fame edition. Three baseball players just entered Cooperstown, including Ichiro Suzuki, who was one vote shy of unanimous support. So, in honor of that, you each have 30 seconds to tell us what Hall of Fame should exist that may not right now. Abel, you're first.
MALDONADO: Well, I love the baseball one, but the one that doesn't exist and I think we should have is maybe a genius Hall of Fame. Thomas Jefferson, I mean, Steve Jobs. I can go on. Jeff Bezos and today, who would be at the top? Elon Musk.
UNKNOWN: Oh, Lord.
MALDONADO: Elon Musk.
PHILLIP: All right. Geoff.
DUNCAN: So, I'm partial to the baseball thing, too. I spent six seasons beating it up in the minor leagues, but unfortunately I'm not in the Hall of Fame. So, I think a fantasy football owner's Hall of Fame, right? I mean you put a lot of grit and determination, you're making trades. You're having a, you know, not really work a couple hours a day trying to figure out how to fix that hurt player.
But I think, the most important thing an owner does is cooperate in trying to pick the punishment for the losing team by three kids played in a -- in a league this year and the loser had to eat the hot nuclear hot wings. And of course, my 14-year-old old son was the one that lost - Ryder. Poor Ryder came home and looked like --
PHILLIP: And he said he's stronger for it.
DUNCAN: He's -- he's -- that's what his brothers are telling me.
PHILLIP: Right. Ashley.
ALLISON: OK. You get five stars. Star Search, the winners of Star Search. It would include, let me just tell you, let me just tell you, this is a millennial faith. Aaliyah, Adam Sandler, Alanis Morissette, yes, thank you. Backstreet Boys, Britney, Christina Aguilera, David Chappelle, Destiny's Child, Martin Lawrence, Pitbull, Ray Romano, Sharon Stone, Tatiana Ali, and one of my favorite groups growing up, The Boys.
PHILLIP: Star Search does not get enough credit.
ALLISON: Thank you.
PHILLIP: No kidding. Wow, that's an incredible list. An incredible list. All right.
BORELLI: I want the non-pro sports hall of fame. Like a place where, you know, average Joes can celebrate their achievements like you know how many whiffle ball strikeouts you got. That hole-in-one that nobody saw. It's like a place where Al Bundy can live in eternity, in glory. And by the way, I got two sacks and a punk walk in one game. St. Joseph by the Sea high school -- 1999 season. So, I would (inaudible) myself to do that.
PHILLIP: Yeah, once again, once again, I'm going to nominate Geoff Duncan for the -- for your holiday.
[23:00:00]
DUNCAN: I'm in.
PHILLIP: I'm sure you got some --
DUNCAN: I've got a bunch of worthless sports achievements.
UNKNOWN: You did?
PHILLIP: -- some kind of sports record you can add to the -- to the achievements. All right, everyone. Thank you very much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
