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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Makes Demands, Threats in First Message to World; Trump on Musk Criticizing A.I. Announcement, He Hates Altman; Two GOP Senators Will Vote Against Pentagon Pick Hegseth. Federal Judge Blocks Trump's Executive Order Targeting 14th Amendment. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 23, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, threats, demands, and a Biden bash. President Trump's first message to global power players, we are the world.
Plus, the Pentagon pick takes a big hit as new accusations emerge against Pete Hegseth.
Also, just 48 hours after Donald Trump opened their jail doors, some Proud Boys are openly threatening police officers.
And Trump versus the law, again. Why a judge emphatically halts 47's fight over the 14th Amendment.
Live at the table, Kara Swisher, Arthur Aidala, Van Lathan, Gail Huff Brown, Chuck Rocha and Julie Roginsky.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. As the song says, everybody wants to rule the world. And for President Trump, let it be known, he is the ruler. In his first address to global powers since his returning to power, it included leaders from businesses, from politics, he declared that America is now open for business, and if you don't join the party, expect to be punished. He also used his time at the Davos Summit to talk about everything, from culture wars to his predecessor. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: My administration is acting with unprecedented speed to fix the disasters we've inherited from a totally inept group of people. President Biden totally lost control of what was going on in our country.
If you don't make your product in America, which is your prerogative, then very simply you will have to pay a tariff.
It's also reported today in the papers that Saudi Arabia will be investing at least $600 billion in America, but I'll be asking the Crown Prince, who's a fantastic guy, to round it out to around $1 trillion.
With oil prices going down, I'll demand that interest rates drop immediately.
We have saved free speech in America.
There are only two genders, male and female.
And transgender operations, which became the rage, will occur very rarely.
And I'm pleased to report that America is also a free nation once again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, the question tonight is how will those power players respond to all of that? And will they join his game? Honestly, Kara, it looks kind of like they will. These are basically his friends. They're people that want to buddy up with him. But he took a pretty combative tone, I thought.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He did, at Davos, right. It's the elite gathering. And he didn't go, actually, just to be clear. He was --
PHILLIP: It was a video.
SWISHER: Hyped in, essentially. You know, I've been to Davos once and I never really liked it because I feel like it's rich people licking each other up and down all day. But I think there probably will be more resistance than you think from some of those world leaders because I don't think they like being lectured to necessarily.
Although all of them sort of have been doing the reach out. Bill Gates was saying, who didn't like him before said, and gave money to Kamala Harris, was saying, you know, I was impressed when I had dinner with him, and same thing with Jamie Dimon and everybody else. So, they're talking the talk. I'm not so sure European leaders will do the same thing.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, one of the interesting things about that is that he didn't leave off the culture war stuff. He bundled it in with the tariffs and the oil and gas prices and the interest rates. I mean, it was a classic Trump campaign speech but said before the leaders of some of the biggest corporations in the entire world. VAN LATHAN, CO-HOST, HIGHER LEARNING, PODCAST WITH VAN LATHAN AND RACHEL LINDSAY: You know what I think I don't think, unlike a lot of people, I don't think President Trump is very smart. But I do give him credit for one thing. He's cunning. If you ever remember the movie, Analyze This, he's talking about the mafia guys, he goes, these guys aren't smart like you are, doctor, but they're cunning. They smell weakness.
So, sometimes I think that with Donald Trump, when he's doing this, he's throwing things out there just to see who he can pinch on and pull on and pick on, because he smells the people that are going to bend the knee, and then he draws those people in, and they bend the knee.
PHILLIP: That's probably not a bad assessment, honestly, of in terms of Trump's ability to sense people who he needs to dominate.
[22:05:02]
GAIL HUFF BROWN (R), FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: That is true. I mean, there's no question that that's part of the negotiating process. But these are world leaders. These are business leaders. These are the people that America needs to bring in if we're going to bring jobs back here. And as Jamie Dimon said, I mean, get over it, you know, when he talked about tariffs.
PHILLIP: Let me play that Jamie Dimon sound just so people know what you're talking about. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON, CEO, JPMORGAN CHASE: I look at tariffs, they are an economic tool. That's it. They're an economic weapon, you know, depending on how you use it and why you use it and stuff like that. And, you know, people argue, is it inflationary and noninflationary? I would put in perspective, if it's a little inflationary, but it's good for national security, so be it. I mean, get over it. National security trumps a little bit more inflation. But I think, really, the question is how they get used.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SWISHER: Jamie Dimon doesn't know how (INAUDIBLE).
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes. Jamie Dimon to sit there and worry about the price of, I don't know, groceries, the price of gas, the price of anything.
PHILLIP: Your washing machine and whatever.
SWISHER: To start on all-time high right now.
ROGINSKY: Yes, because he's (INAUDIBLE).
SWISHER: Correct. BROWN: Well, energy was one of the things they brought up, too. I mean, by bringing down the cost of energy, we're going to bring down the cost of goods. And I think that's one of the things that he talked about today, was, you know, advising Saudi Arabia and the OPEC nations that we're going to be producing enough oil and natural gas that we'll be able to not only supply our own companies but be able to supply overseas as well.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, Abby, the bottom line is he's capturing the moment, right? He's capturing the moment. He just became the president of the United States the second time. He got the popular vote, which he worked very hard, campaigning in the Bronx, which he knew he was never going to win and all over New York, but he wanted that popular vote and he has it and he's -- I mean, look how aggressive he just was. And he won.
Like it was obvious Kamala Harris was not going to govern that way. She was going to be more of a statesperson and he's going to be more of, here I am, America's back, and I'm going to steamroll, and you guys need me. Europe, you need me. And he's going to try to do the best for his administration and for his country as he can. That's his style. It's not my style when I'm in a courtroom, but that's his style. And he's going to execute it.
LATHAN: Did you notice what you just said? You said he's going to do the best for his administration and his country.
AIDALA: Right. The way President Biden did for his administration --
ROGINSKY: No, (INAUDIBLE) for the country.
AIDALA: Like what you --
LATHAN: That's just not what I would prefer, and I think a lot of Americans would prefer is that someone that stood up there. Was thinking about not what was best for them, or their administration, or their cult of personality, but what's best for their country.
AIDALA: But in his mind, it's the same thing. In his mind, the people who elected him and the people who he has surrounded himself with are people who believe what he just said. They believe in the tariffs, they believe in a strong America, they believe in a trillion dollars being invested in America from Saudi Arabia.
ROGINSKY: But, listen, have you heard, like, what he says? MBS is a great guy, right? Kim Jong-un is a great guy.
AIDALA: I don't think he said he was a great guy lately.
ROGINSKY: Kim Jong un?
AIDALA: He said, I had a good relationship with him.
ROGINSKY: No. Actually, I think he said they were like best friends and writing love letters to each other, but that's neither here nor there. What he's not doing is treating our allies, the people that have helped us sustain the Pax Americana since 1945, the people who've traded with us, who've given intelligence to us, who went to Afghanistan with us, because they our NATO allies. He treats them like garbage.
AIDALA: I think the prime minister of Italy is pretty happy with Mr. Trump. I think the president of Argentina is pretty happy with him.
ROGINSKY: Well, the president of Argentina, and the president -- the prime minister of Italy and the President of Argentina are very Trump- esque. So, I can see why they're happy with Trump.
PHILLIP: So, Arthur's talking about a lot of these investments. Trump announced a big one earlier this week with --
SWISHER: Well, he didn't announce it. He stood there while it was being announced.
PHILLIP: He stood there with Sam Altman of OpenAI and Oracle's Larry Ellison. The real drama, though, is between Elon Musk and those folks who were with the president this week. Politico put it this way, according to a Republican source, it's clear that Musk has abused the proximity of the president. The problem is the president doesn't have any leverage over him and Elon gives zero Fs.
SWISHER: Yes, he does.
PHILLIP: He is crapping all over this deal and mostly because he doesn't like Sam Altman?
SWISHER: That is correct. I'm sorry to tell you, but Silicon Valley is a nursery school with very badly behaved children. You know, and Sam was giving it back to him and doing it on purpose because, you know, at the very -- look, whatever you think about the salute that Elon did, and I can show you other versions of my heart goes out to you that he did only a year ago, which were very different, you can interpret it how you want. But what he is at the base is a troll, and he's trying to troll you and get a reaction. He does it with whatever topic he decides us to pick, he'll do it. In this case, he did it with that, and then followed it up today with a series of jokes using Nazi names, which was totally tasteless.
[22:10:01]
PHILLIP: Which then the ADL actually condemned.
SWISHER: Maybe he was trying to troll us. I don't know what's in his heart, but he's a troll. He likes to cause trouble, so that's what he's doing, at the White House with this thing. This is something called Stargate. It's to build different kinds infrastructure around A.I. and keep it in this country. This has been in the works for a year. The Biden administration certainly could have announced it the same way. They didn't, which was interesting to me.
But it's Larry Ellison, Oracle, which has been a little behind in the A.I. wars joining with OpenAI, which needs more compute power, and everybody needs more compute power, they need more energy, everything else, so it's to build data centers all around the country to do this, to have more compute power for the future.
And if you've noticed Elon, which has been wandering into all these meetings, didn't get to wander in. His ass (ph) must have not worked at the door.
PHILLIP: But, you know, it's so interesting to me, because, I mean, the reason, you know, you brought up all these people around him who have the country's best interests in mind, this seems like a very clear example of Elon having Elon in mind, okay? This is an announcement that's purportedly good for the country, but he doesn't like it because it doesn't have his name on it, and it has this competitor's name.
BROWN: And because the, he has a fight particularly with that man.
But I don't think anybody cares about the fight between these billionaires. I think, ultimately, it comes down to how do we stay ahead of China when it comes to artificial intelligence? And how do we keep jobs here in America? How do we create jobs here in America?
PHILLIP: But aren't you worried that Musk is doing what he's doing publicly here privately on all kinds of other things that he opposes from a business perspective that might be good for the country?
LATHAN: Well, that's the concern. The concern isn't the fact that, you know, Elon Musk is out there and he's making strides in the business world who likes Sam Altman, who doesn't like Sam Altman. The concern is that Elon Musk has too much influence over somebody who can affect my life and that a petty business fight that he might have with someone else or a difference in policy might end up shaping the life of an American.
And it's one thing for these guys to fight on the golf course, to fight in Silicon Valley, to fight in Sun Valley, all of that stuff, but for them to do it in proximity to the White House --
AIDALA: But that's been going on forever. Alexander Hamilton had undue influence on George Washington. Literally, he was with George Washington all the time telling him ideas about policy and the treasury.
SWISHER: Alexander Hamilton didn't pay $250 million to do so.
AIDALA: Okay, however he got there. That's not the point how they got there. But there have been people next to people of the presidents forever who have had --
ROGINSKY: They were sitting --
PHILLIP: Elon has a office in the White House. He has a White House badge. As far as I know, he has not passed a background check. He hasn't passed an FBI check. He hasn't disclosed anything that federal employees are supposed to. I mean --
AIDALA: Who's gotten us to the moon? Who's gotten us into space? He said that he's gotten us to space. We went to space long before, you know what citizen?
LATHAN: That's the government. Excuse me. That's the government.
AIDALA: It takes a lot of manpower.
LATHAN: What I would say is that Elon Musk actually is the government because a lot of what he did was subsidized by the government.
AIDALA: Okay, because the government unfortunately wasn't able to get it done and he was. Biden, though, everyone gave him money to experiment with this. NASA went down in a ball of flames. These are our hopes.
LATHAN: Are you saying that --
PHILLIP: Are we really disputing whether Elon -- I mean, look, he clearly is a very important person. He has a lot of skills. He has a lot of --
AIDALA: He's the richest man in the world.
PHILLIP: He's the richest man in the world. But the issue is there are usually guardrails checks and balances on wealthy people being able to basically control the entire government and they're not working right now because they're gone.
LATHAN: Why is it a given that Elon Musk is so important? What's so important about Elon Musk?
ROGINSKY: Because Donald Trump has allowed him to be.
LATHAN: No, I'm asking, seriously. Like what's so important about Elon Musk? He's achieved a lot, but in terms of importance, he's made a lot of money for himself and he's done some in terms of how Elon Musk has affected people's lives by. Dr. King is important.
AIDALA: how many people is Elon Musk employed between Tesla and all this --
ROGINSKY: Not as much as Walmart. Yes, you don't see them.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: But, really, it's what you just said. They made a friendship. They became buddies. And that's why he's got the --
ROGINSKY: Arthur, it's a little different than that, right? It's about priorities. You had the president of the United States and then sitting in the front row where Jeff Bezos and Beyonce, excuse me. You had Elon Musk, you had Mark Zuckerberg. Like who are these people and why are they sitting ahead of the legislative branch?
AIDALA: Because we live in a capitalist society.
ROGINSKY: No.
AIDALA: Yes, we do. Yes, we do. We do live in a capitalist society. And we elected a capitalist leader.
PHILLIP: And we don't live in an oligarchy yet.
ROGINSKY: But who are you? Vladimir Putin, you've surrounded yourself with oligarchs now? We have a Constitution here.
AIDALA: But we did not elect a politician. We didn't elect Senator Obama, we didn't elect Senator Biden.
SWISHER: All right, let me just say --
PHILLIP: Okay, last word, Kara.
SWISHER: Since I'm the only one who knows all these people, and have interviewed them many times, let me give you something. They were -- these people had no interest in politics until they realized, one, it's very cheap to buy politicians, two, they started to get caught in the regulatory crosshairs that every other industry in history has had.
[22:15:09]
They don't want any of that.
And so what they're doing is they're seeing it's really cheap to get into politics and have influence and so you need proximity to this particular president who is very transactional, and I'm being nice when I'm saying transactional. He's --
AIDALA: You're correct.
SWISHER: And so that's what they're doing.
And so what Trump was doing was much more interesting, is he sat them there in television. He's a television president, and so he sat them there and so they were all sitting there in a row which, and he was saying, look who I -- oh, look who I control.
PHILLIP: In almost every shot, you could see them. And you're totally right.
SWISHER: You know who wasn't in the shots? Sam Altman and Tim Cook.
PHILLIP: Right, yes. You're totally right about that. He placed them there so that they could be seen. And that was very important to him.
Everyone, hang tight. Coming up next, two Republican senators say they're going to vote no on Pete Hegseth as we learn new allegations against the Pentagon nominee.
Plus, a judge has now blocked Trump's fight against birthright citizenship, and he's got some blunt words for him and his lawyers. We'll debate, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, President Trump's controversial pick to lead the Pentagon just hit another roadblock. But will it be enough to stop his ride? Two Republican senators, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski, they're now coming out against Pete Hegseth just a day before the Senate plans to vote on his fate. Team Trump can only lose two more Republicans or his confirmation fails.
Now, this comes as we learn that former Fox host paid a woman $50,000 for an NDA after she accused him of sexual assault. He denies those claims. But it's for those reasons along with his inexperience that Murkowski says he lacks the strength of character to serve in this role.
It is maybe a little bit surprising that more people did not come to the same conclusion because it's just hit after hit after hit in his background. His ex-wife came forward, according to our sources, to the FBI and told them he drinks more often than he doesn't.
Are you surprised that more Republicans haven't said, hey, hold on a second, maybe we need to rethink this one?
BROWN: I think the president made it very, very clear when he decided to double down on Pete Hegseth that he was going to do everything he could to make sure that he gets through the confirmation process. He will be confirmed. He will be head of the Pentagon. But it certainly has been a very, very rocky road for him.
Obviously, if he loses one more vote, we have J.D. Vance comes in and breaks a tie, if that were to happen. But my prediction is that he's going to sail through and that'll be it.
PHILLIP: Yes. And I think that she's probably right. Like I don't think that there's any indication that anybody else is thinking about not voting for him and --
ROGINSKY: Yes, let me just point out the hypocrisy here, because I actually got the only two federal -- Gretchen Carlson and I got the only two federal pieces of MeToo legislation through the Senate and the House. And every single one of those -- one had to do with NDAs. And every single one of those senators who voted for him today, every single one all said that they supported a ban on pre-dispute NDAs for sexual misconduct. And every single one gave these great speeches about how NDAs have no place when it comes to sexual misconduct and we're living in a whole new world now. Women need to be believed. And it was a beautiful moment. And then they turn around and do this.
I mean, talk about hypocrisy. Talk about throwing out your values on behalf of Donald Trump.
SWISHER: I'm shocked.
ROGINSKY: I'm shocked too. I'm shocked on floor, exactly.
But it does mean something, right, because these people did stand up with tears in their eyes. We have to believe all women and we have -- NDAs of no place. And look what happened. Look what happened the minute Donald Trump told them to bend the knee.
AIDALA: Any lawyer or judge, whoever says, we have to believe all, fill in the blank, is not doing their job, right? You can't say I believe all --
ROGINSKY: Are you saying this woman is a liar?
AIDALA: What woman? We're not talking about any woman.
ROGINSKY: Well, what are you talking about?
AIDALA: You can't -- everyone, every lawyer who's ever said you have to believe all fill in the blank, that's against our principles of just the foundation of our government. The foundation is there's a trial, jurors, 12 people or 6 people, listen to both sides, and they decide whether they believe someone or they don't believe somebody.
ROGINSKY: So, somebody who signed an NDA in exchange for a settlement, you're saying is a liar because a jury never deemed it.
AIDALA: I never said anything.
ROGINSKY: So, what are you implying? I'm saying you can't have a person who -- a lay person can say anything they want, but a lawyer or a judge can't say, believe all, fill in the blank, dogs, horses, whatever you want to say, boy scouts, girl scouts. So that's number one.
Number two, look, let me be -- Abby, I'm only straight with you. I know, I don't know Pete. I know his wife, Jennifer. I'm quite fond of her. She was my boss when I was at Fox News. But the one comment you read, I have no problem with his inexperience, like if that's why they're not voting for him, fine by me. How many people do we know that you can say they drink more than they don't drink? Meaning if you have a glass of red wine five nights a week with dinner and you don't two nights, that means you drink more than you don't.
ROGINSKY: Wait, no.
ROGINSKY: That's what she said. That was the quote you read.
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. Oh, but Arthur I'm sorry, but I would never say that about -- look, there are people who struggle with alcohol abuse. Let me just put that on the table. That's a real thing. But I would never say, you know, Julie, you drink more than you don't, because most people don't actually drink more than they don't.
[22:25:00]
I'm just saying most people don't and she clearly made that statement because there have been other allegations of his misuse of alcohol, his conduct that the senators have seen, to be clear. They have seen these allegations.
LATHAN: So, two things, real quick, one about the belief portion of this when we're talking about believing victims, we're not just talking about when it gets to the jury. We're talking about taking the veracity of a claim and believing it to the point that you investigate it, trusting it, and then verifying it. That has to start with police, that has to start with R.A.s in a college dorm, that has to start with -- that starts long before it gets to a jury.
AIDALA: They don't believe everyone.
LATHAN: But for a long time in this country, that's not the way it was. Culturally, it was.
ROGINSKY: And you know that.
AIDALA: As a former prosecutor, that's the way it was in the Brooklyn D.A.'s Office.
LATHAN: a claim was made. But that's if it gets there, right? A claim was made and someone said he didn't do it.
ROGINSKY: How many rape cases did you actually prosecute? How many rape complainants came to you?
AIDALA: Eight.
ROGINSKY: Yes, exactly. And you think only eight people in Brooklyn --
AIDALA: I'm one prosecutor out of 500 --
ROGINSKY: Statistically, you know, cases don't come to trial. Come on. You know that.
LATHAN: And then on the second part of it, we can say whatever about his -- how he drinks or whatever. There's enough evidence from his mother calling him a lowlife, from people in his life calling him a lowlife. I'm not calling him one. They're saying it. And the position that he seeks to occupy is not just one of tremendous power. It's one where he is in control of a lot of people.
So, what I'm saying is, if you're going to nominate this guy and appoint him, and if that's going to happen, just go with it, but don't try and convince us he's a good guy.
BROWN: But he has said that he will give up drinking while he's on the job. You don't believe that?
ROGINSKY: No, I think somebody who has a drinking problem is not capable without going to rehab.
BROWN: Oh, I absolutely think someone is able to rehab and change their life.
(CROSSTALKS)
SWISHER: But he's saying he doesn't have a drinking problem. He has never said that. So, that's what he said.
BROWN: He has said that he had issues in the past and that he regrets that, he's not a perfect person and he deserves a second chance.
PHILLIP: Hold on. He's been pretty vague about what, you know, he said, I'm a changed man. But just to make one point here, Susan Collins and Murkowski, they both also talk about his lack of qualifications. And Murkowski basically says, his limited managerial experience involving running two small nonprofit organizations that he had decidingly mixed results, he's also concerned about multiple statements that he's made in recent months.
He did run a couple of nonprofits essentially into the ground and he wants to run the Pentagon, okay, the Pentagon, which is huge.
SWISHER: That's the problem. But we've had defense secretaries, I'm guessing, that have been womanizers. I'm guessing we've had defense secretaries that drank too much, absolutely. Characters are really different, and we've had some people that don't have character. Like this is not something new and fresh.
I think what needs to be focused on is why this person was picked given the qualifications of so many other people who are much better at it. I think it has to do again with T.V. He looks good. Trump has enjoyed him on T.V. He's controllable, presumably. That's one of the things happening here. And the question, is this the very best person of all the people, even if I don't particularly like that person, is he the very best person? I think most people would say no. He's still going to get through nonetheless, I suspect, unless Mitch McConnell decides to pull a John McCain, but I doubt he will.
LATHAN: The ultimate DEI, we talk so much about DEI, the fires are blamed on DEI, plane turbulence is blamed on DEI. The ultimate DEI is being a Trump loyalist. That's the ultimate DEI. Because that means you don't have to be qualified. You don't have to be of high character. You don't have to have any type of moral fiber. You don't have to have any of the things that you would think that someone that will be leading the Pentagon would have to have. You only have to have one thing. And you have to have loyalty to Donald Trump, the ultimate DEI to me.
PHILLIP: All right. Kara Swisher, thank you very much for joining us, we appreciate it. Everyone else, stick around.
Next, a judge blocks Trump's plan to revoke birthright citizenship for some newborns, calling it blatantly unconstitutional. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
Stay with us.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking tonight, a federal judge is blocking President Trump's executive order targeting the 14th Amendment. It states, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." Pretty clear to me. Trump, of course, though, argues that children
born to immigrants who came here illegally -- and legally, by the way, don't deserve automatic citizenship. The judge, however, says, quote, "I am having trouble understanding how a member of the bar could state unequivocally that this order is constitutional. It just boggles my mind. This is a blatantly unconstitutional order."
Chuck Rocha joins us at the table now. Rarely do you hear federal judges state things. I'll just take this to Arthur because he's the attorney at the table.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank God for me it's rarely but sometimes they get --
PHILLIP: Do you hear judges, I mean on these constitutional issues, right? And he's like, guys, are you serious?
AIDALA: And this is a judge who's been around a long time. He's a Ronald Reagan appointee. And I mean, it's just, yeah, it's kind of elementary. I mean, it's just something that's clearly written in the constitution. And you know, I feel bad for the lawyer. Like, you know, we're talking about blind loyalty to Trump.
Like, sometimes you have to say, Mr. President, like, I know you want this out there. You want this idea out there. But we can't go into federal court and do it because I'm going to be embarrassed and maybe I'm going to even be sanctioned. You know, judges can sanction you at federal court for putting in a frivolous motion. I mean, it's that clear.
If he wanted to really do something, he could talk about a constitutional convention, which is very, very hard to do, to change the United States Constitution into what he wants. But it's pretty cut and dry. If Justice Scalia was with us, who was a textualist, what the text says is what it means, he would say, get out of my car.
CHUCK ROCHA, "THE LATINO VOTE" PODCAST CO-HOST: I think it's intentional what they're doing and I think they know what they're doing. I know it seems ludicrous on its face. But before the show tonight, I might or might not have been doing some googling about movies, which we'll get to later.
But there was a scene in "Jurassic Park" with the Raptors. And the kid asked, what are they doing? He goes, they're testing the fences. And I think that's what they're doing right now, is they know they can get through. So they're testing their limits.
And if you read what Stephen Miller wrote in the New York Times in November of 2023, he outlined this strategy verbatim. He said, we're going to overwhelm them. We're going to talk about the 14th Amendment. We're going to deport a lot of U.S. citizens and other folks who may just get in the way as we're trying to get rid of bad people, quote unquote, in their mind.
So, they know what they're doing. So, I think this is very intentional for all of us, going, oh, this could never happen in our country. They're testing the fences.
PHILLIP: Well, to your point, they started the deportation raids and arrests this week. In Newark, they arrested some folks. And according to the mayor, their agents raided a local establishment in the city of Newark, detaining undocumented residents, as well as citizens without producing a warrant.
ROCHA: Let me jump in before you -- let me finish that statement because as I was coming in here tonight, I was having dinner with a reporter and they found out that one of these U.S. citizens is an army veteran.
PHILLIP: Right.
JULIR ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah, that's the guy. And the guy had to -- they were offended that they had to produce some sort of legal documents showing that he was a citizen. And then --
PHILLIP: He was questioned about whether those documents were bad.
ROGINSKY: -- could you imagine if Joe Biden issued executive orders saying, you know what, I don't really like elements of the second amendment, I'm just going to get rid of it. Could you imagine the craziness, all these people, Arthur, that you know, I used to work with the Fox with little pocket constitutions they would pull out every day? Could you imagine the head exploding if Joe Biden did something like this?
AIDALA: Right, I agree with you.
ROGINSKY: And yet when it comes to the constitution, nobody cares.
AIDALA: Not only is he testing the fences, but Abby, you remember, you reported on the polling before election day. Immigration and migrants, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, was like the number one issue. So, this is what the American people voted for -- 53 percent, they wanted the TV president who was going to be a tough guy, who was going to throw people out of the country. This is who they voted for.
PHILLIP: OK, I'll give you the -- they voted for the deportations. They did not vote for --
AIDALA: For the TV guy? Because the TV --
PHILLIP: No, I'm talking about the birthright citizenship of it all. They did not vote for that.
GAIL HUFF BROWN (R) TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think the goal all along was for this to go to the Supreme Court. I mean, that is the goal all along, is to let the Supreme Court make a decision in rendering on what exactly and how exactly this should play out. There is a question about fairness. If somebody is here illegally and gives birth, should that baby be an American citizen?
PHILLIP: I don't think it's a question of --
HUFF BROWN: I don't think so. Why should that baby born in --
PHILLIP: I think it's a question of what the Constitution says and what it doesn't say. I would be surprised if this does go to the Supreme Court. They would not grant cert on this because they -- it says what it says. It says what it says.
HUFF BROWN: We'll see.
AIDALA: The Supreme Court takes cases where there's a real controversy. Here, I think -- I don't think you're going to get four judges to say, well, this is a question we have to answer.
PHILLIP: It's been over 150 years and there's been no controversy about it.
VAN LATHAN, "HIGHER LEARNING PODCAST WITH VAN LATHAN AND RACHEL LINDSAY" CO-HOST: You know, I do think that it's definitely a fact that Americans voted on this. They voted on immigration. They voted on the idea that it was somebody else's fault that their lives aren't going the way they would want them to go. I do wonder, though, how much of this Americans will take.
There's going to be animist danger. There's going to be -- they're going to be Americans inconvenience. They're going to be people hurt. They're going to be people detained .This is not going to go well. And what kind of what kind of appetite the average American has for this?
AIDALA: We've done this before, Abby. We know better than that. I believe under President Obama's administration, they deported eight million, nine million?
ROGINSKY: No.
AIDALA: Yes. Yes.
PHILLIP: Not quite that many but you're just --
ROCHA: It was more than Donald Trump in the first administration.
PHILLIP: More than Donald Trump. Yeah, he -- I mean there are plenty of Republicans who stand in awe of how many people that Obama was able to deport, because it was quite a lot.
ROCHA: So much so they've labeled him the deporter-in-chief. And I'd also like to add to what Van is saying, is there's more repercussions to this. We all lived through this before. And what's going to happen with this U.S. citizen is they now can bring it to court and sue the U.S. government for what's just happened, and we all get to pay that penalty.
ROGINSKY: Well, I'll go a step further. There are reports that in Bakersfield, California, 75 percent of agricultural workers, farm workers, didn't show up to work yesterday. Because they're afraid of deportation. What's that going to do to our food supply? Right?
Americans also voted for cheaper groceries. They voted for, you know, I think Donald Trump said, I mean, the press said he was going to get rid of high prices for bacon, for eggs and for apples.
[22:40:02]
Good luck. Who do you think -- who do you think works in those meat processing plants? Who do you think picks those apples?
AIDALA: I don't think, I don't know. I don't think that's who they're targeting. I don't think they're targeting guys --
ROGINSKY: They're targeting American citizens in Newark.
AIDALA: No. OK. I don't think they're targeting people who are working on farms who are productive members of society.
ROGINSKY: Yes, they have race.
AIDALA: That's Newark, New Jersey.
ROGINSKY: No, no, they had a race. Because -- they had race.
AIDALA: They're not going to the farm.
ROGINSKY: Yes, they did.
AIDALA: That's like getting the apple pickers. What farm did they go to?
ROGINSKY: Yes, in California, in Bakersfield. They went to the farms. That's why people didn't show up. That's the whole point.
AIDALA: Well, did they not show up or did they --
ROGINSKY: Both, both.
LATHAN: The reality is that people -- the reality is that they don't know who they're targeting.
ROGINSKY: Right.
LATHAN: So they don't feel safe. They don't feel safe going to restaurants to work in restaurants in Chicago. They don't feel safe going to work in farms in Bakersfield in the middle of the country. They just know that they are being targeted and they can't put any faith into the fact that they're going to be able to go to and fro without being molested by ICE.
So to me, all I'm saying is that right there is going to be something that just -- the images television and the prices that you pay in the supermarket that Americans are going to have to contend with.
PHILLIP: Well, one, you know, one thing that I think we should all keep in mind is going to be four years of this. So everyone, just pace yourself. We're going to see a lot of these kinds of challenges designed to test the system.
Everyone, hold on. Coming up next, President Trump doubling down on inviting freed January 6th prisoners to the White House and it now appears that they're feeling emboldened. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:52]
PHILLIP: Emboldened. That's one way to describe some of those January 6th rioters as they now bask in their recent pardons from President Trump. And now, they are going after law enforcement with "The New York Times" reporting Proud Boys members posting threats against Washington corrections officers. And to add insult to injury, Trump had this to say when he was asked if he'd allow those he pardoned to visit the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know, I'm sure that they probably would like to. I did -- I did them something important, but what they did is they were protesting a crooked election. I mean, people understand that also. And they were treated very badly. Nobody's been treated like that. So, I'd be open to it certainly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Unrepentant, both Donald Trump and the January 6th rioters about what happened on that day.
ROGINSKY: He's creating his own militia. Let's be very clear about what this is. He's creating a group of thugs that will go out and do his bidding no matter what. And that's what happened on January 6th. And now he's emboldened them. And the problem for the rest of us is that there's no consequences for Donald Trump anymore -- thanks to the Supreme Court.
So, you are now creating a situation where if you're a member of Congress and you cross Donald Trump, do you really want the Proud Boys coming after you? Because they're effectively pledging their loyalty to the man. That's what they're doing. That's -- and he knows it. And he's uplifting them. They're going around threatening cops. He doesn't care.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ROGINSKY: Because they're doing something that he wants them to do.
AIDALA: It's hard to believe he doesn't care about them threatening cops.
ROGINSKY: They beat -- they beat the crap out of cops that day.
AIDALA: I agree with you. And I'm not a fan, and I was on with Abby last week, or this week, I was not a fan of people being pardoned who took a fire extinguisher and hit a police officer. You know, to me, that is not cool.
PHILLIP: Which, by the way, Trump called those -- the injuries that those cops sustained, minor.
AIDALA: OK.
PHILLIP: Even though some of them have permanent injuries, some of them are not alive anymore.
AIDALA: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Abby. We do know Donald Trump has a long history of being very pro-law enforcement. He got more endorsements from every police union in the entire country than maybe any president of all time. So, it's just disingenuous to say, oh, Donald Trump is cool with the Proud Boys beating up the cops. That's just not true.
ROGINSKY: Of course he is.
AIDALA: On that one particular day for those ones.
LATHAN: What?
AIDALA: That was a campaign promise.
ROGINSKY: You're better than this.
AIDALA: What you just said was he's okay with them doing it like they did in the future.
ROGINSKY: They just threatened cops. They literally, today, went out and threatened cops and he's okay with it.
AIDALA: Fine. How do you know he's okay with it? Did you talk to him?
ROGINSKY: He just said he would invite him to the White House.
AIDALA: He said he would be open to it.
ROGINSKY: Oh, okay. All right.
AIDALA: Donald Trump was endorsed by every police union in the United States of America.
ROGINSKY: By the way --
PHILLIP: Okay, one at a time.
LATHAN: This is not -- this is unenviable. Look, we can go back and forth about a lot of things. We can have a lot of conversations. This is so cut and dry. People stormed the Capitol, beat the police officers, tased them. Trump said, I like you. Get out of jail. Then he said, come visit me at my house. He likes them.
AIDLA: OK, I agree with everything that you just said. OK. I don't believe that he's cool with them going out there and beating up on cops today in 2025.
LATHAN: Oh, oh, only when they're beating up on cops on his behalf. AIDALA: It was a campaign promise, period, amen. And he got elected
on that. Everyone knew he was going to do it. How about this? You finally got a politician who actually kept their campaign plans -- truly promised. You know he didn't hide it. You know he's campaigned on "I'm going to pardon them." He won the vote.
ROGINSKY: I think something like 70 percent of American voters do not support him pardoning these people.
AIDALA: But they -- but 53 percent voted for him to be president.
ROGINSKY: Fifty percent did not want him to be president.
PHILLIP: We do have the numbers. This is a recent "A.P." poll. Twenty-one percent favor pardoning these rioters.
ROCHA: So, what's going to happen here? And there's a lot of truth especially on this end of the table on everything that's been said. But when we talked in focus groups in congressional races and Senate races, you're right.
Folks knew that he was going to pardon them, not all of them in most cases. We could split the hairs there or not. But the political implication is what's going to happen here.
[22:50:00]
And the reason he did it on day one is he hopes people forget about it by the midterms. That's A. But B --
AIDALA: Good point.
ROCHA: Whatever happens with these folks as they go. If they continue to be emboldened, if they run for Congress and keep talking about it, if they hurt another cop, if they do something else, it keeps them in the headlines. And it helps a democratic operative like me, because I'll make an ad about that thing.
Now, it's horrible that somebody has to get her to do whatever, but that's the real implications here. That's what we did on day one. And that's where most of the folks are like, oh, he's going to let the ones who didn't do that bad off the hook, but they'll do something.
PHILLIP: Okay, some of these guys were charged with organizing an armed militia on January 6th. They are now walking free. That's what Donald Trump is doing.
HUFF BROWN: And I think that needs to be revisited. That needs to be revisited.
PHILLIP: It's too late. They've been pardoned.
HUFF BROWN: There's no question about -- well, then, if they're truly making these threats, then they should be arrested and put back in prison again. I mean --
AIDALA: That's a fair point. It's that simple.
PHILLIP: That ship has, well --
AIDALA: No, no, if they're making new arrests then they're opening themselves --
PHILLIP: They're making new threats.
HUFF BROWN: If they're making new threats, throw them back in prison?
PHILLIP: All right, well, we will see what happens. Everyone, stay with me. Coming up next, our panel gives us their nightcaps, Oscar's edition. They're going to tell us what category should exist, but doesn't. But first, Christopher Reeve went from playing an on-screen hero to becoming a symbol of hope. Follow his story in the CNN film "Superman, The Christopher Reeve Story". It's airing this Sunday, February second, or on Sunday, February second at 8 P.M. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:03]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap Oscars edition in honor of the nominations that were announced this morning. You each now have 30 seconds to say what category you think should be in the Oscars and who you would nominate. Chuck, you're up.
ROCHA: Best performance that never got nominated, 1993 Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in "Tombstone". Also, best movie that never got an Oscar was 1966 "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly".
PHILLIP: Were you even alive?
ROCHA: I was almost there. And the last one is -- new category is most overrated actor, and the Oscar goes to Kevin Hart. Take that for the Philadelphia because of the Commanders are going to win on Sunday.
PHILLIP: And listen, I'm not responsible. This is not an endorsement of anything. Go ahead, Gail.
HUFF BROWN: I don't know if I can answer those particular questions, but I would like to mention what I thought was the worst movie of the year, and that was "Baby Girl". I don't know if you saw it, but Nicole Kidman -- and I love her, but I can never look at her the same again. Everyone called it a sexy movie, but I just thought it was so, so weird.
PHILLIP: No, that's a hot take.
HUFF BROWN: Sorry.
LATHAN: For me, it is the movie that you are all lying about. You all didn't see it. You all, Emelia Perez, like there's one year, there's one film that everyone is raving about and I'm convinced that nobody actually watched it. And that year, this year it's Emelia Perez. I just think it's hype. I think people are going in for it.
HUFF BROWN: I watched it. I watched it. I saw it.
PHILLIP: Did you like it?
HUFF BROWN: I -- it was strange. It was strange.
PHILLIP: I mean, it could be -- it could be the movie this year at the Oscars.
LATHAN: No way they saw it.
PHILLIP: All right, Arthur.
AIDALA: Well, I had a little hat envy, so I, you know, I got involved with this. But, you know, along the theme of the hat, I think there should be a nomination, a category of. In a motion picture, Best Bald Head, Arthur Aidala. Come on, there's a lot of bald guys.
PHILLIP: Yes.
AIDALA: From Yule Brenner to Telly Savalas to Bruce Willis as a great bald man.
ROCHA: To Chuck Rocha. People have talked about Chuck Rocha. I ain't got no hair.
AIDALA: I would go with a healthy Bruce Willis. You know, I think Bruce is nice.
ROCHA: Telly Savalas.
AIDALA: Telly Savalas is great.
ROCHA: Sorry.
AIDALA: Yule Brenner was fantastic.
PHILLIP: All right, yeah.
AIDALA: Come on, bald power.
PHILLIP: We got to give the bald guys a moment in the sun.
ROGINSKY: I want a category for Best Low Brow movie. I'm sick of these Emilia Perez's getting these nominations like where's "Naked Gun"? Remember "Naked Gun"? Why did airplanes get a nomination? All of those movies, what, "Hot Shots", all of them. None of them ever got a nomination so that's my, you know, we need a category for the rest of us who actually like to go watch funny movies. And then you start making them again.
PHILLIP: OK, so Van, what do you -- what do you think should win Best Picture?
LATHAN: What should win Best Picture is "Wicked". What will win Best Picture is --
ROCHA: Take it from the cowboy hats. Now, I got drugged to go see "Wicked" as well, and I think it was a dang good movie.
PHILLIP: It was very nice.
LATHAN: I love it, but "Brueless" will win.
PHILLIP: And I think "Wicked" was a really ambitious film in a lot of different ways, so yeah, I buy that. And I think they're going to get snubbed because it's the Oscars. OK, before we go, I have to expose a terrible injustice here tonight. Here's the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: News personalities for 16.
KEN JENNINGS, "JEOPARDY" HOST: A graduate of Harvard, she's worked as a White House correspondent and presidential debate moderator. Drew.
UNKNOWN: Who's Abby Phillips?
JENNINGS: No. Will or Mehal? Drew, you added the S, you know. Abby Phillip.
UNKNOWN: Yes. Back to you.
PHILLIP: Come on, Ken. Ken, he was so close.
LATHAN: That's legitimately wrong.
PHILLIP: Justice for Drew.
LATHAN: It's wrong. Actually, I feel bad for him.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Justice for Drew. He was so close. I would have given it to him.
UNKNOWN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: I don't know. You know, I'm not a stickler for the "Jeopardy" rules but --
[23:00:00]
ROGINSKY: Why is it everytime --
PHILLIP: Chuck is looking at me like you know --
AIDALA: Now you know you made it, right? I mean, isn't that official?
ROCHA: It all depends on how much money was on the line like if he was going to win a new house, I'd be like, no, no way.
PHILLIP: The good news is it wasn't that much money. ROGINSKY: It also proves my point that if you went to Harvard, you
got to jam in you went to Harvard in every possible way. That's a Harvard affliction you guys all have.
LATHAN: That was a humble brag that you were on "Jeopardy".
(APPLAUSE)
ROCHA: I like it. I'm doing the same thing.
PHILLIP: Everybody except for Van. Thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
