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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Fires Justice Department Officials Who Prosecuted Him; Trump DOJ Will Investigate Prosecutors of January 6th Cases; Agents in ICE Raids are Told to Be Camera-Ready for Arrests. "NewsNight" Tackles The Issue On Deportation; Judge Rules One AFD Leader Could Be Described As Fascist Without Fear of Defamation. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 27, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, a government purge, Donald Trump shows the door to government watchdogs. An official who quit over the president's sweeping January 6th pardons joins us in minutes.
Plus, made for T.V. raids, Donald Trump shows the country his immigration crackdown by turning the cameras on ICE and on Dr. Phil.
Also, MAGA mocks actress Selena Gomez for her tears over the deportation blitz.
And, forget, never forget. Elon Musk asks Germany to leave its guilt in the past, just days before the world pauses to remember the Holocaust.
Live at the table, Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings, Maria Cardona, and Tim Pawlenty.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Philip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, punishment for trying to punish crimes allegedly committed by one man. That one man now occupies the Oval Office. Tonight, Donald Trump is saying the quiet part out loud and on paper. A letter by his acting attorney general, James McHenry, leaves about why he fired the more than dozen career department lawyers. Their quote, significant role in prosecuting the president, the assumption here, of course, is that the lawyers who were doing their jobs will not pass a MAGA loyalty test.
He also writes, I do not believe that the leadership of the department can trust you to assist in implementing the president's agenda faithfully.
Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Ashley Akers, a former federal prosecutor involved in some of these January 6th cases. She resigned in protest just last week.
Ashley, these prosecutors that are now being fired is this, in your view, something that is just within Trump's authority, a normal turnover, or is this retaliation?
ASHLEY AKERS, JUST RESIGNED FROM DOJ OVER TRUMP'S PARDONS: It's seemingly unprecedented. These are career prosecutors who have been at the Department of Justice during the Biden administration, during the last Trump administration, and even prior. The only thing that's different this time is that they were asked to join a case against the president.
There's no suggestion that they did anything wrong other than abide by their duties, which is examining the case based on the facts, the evidence, and the law, and making independent judgments, which the Department of Justice is supposed to do in proceeding forward.
PHILLIP: Yes. So, so their crime here, according to the Trump Justice Department now, is that they said, yes, when their superiors asked them to take a case. I mean, what does that do to people who are coming up in the ranks at DOJ, who are being, every day, asked to take on all kinds of controversial cases, public corruption cases, all kinds of different cases?
AKERS: Well, it's certainly going to scare prosecutors, and that's not what we want to do, right? We want prosecutors to have independent judgment, to be able to think constructively, analyze the law, the facts, the evidence, like I mentioned, and not be scared of political retribution. Political calculation should never come in to a prosecutor's mind when they're exercising their discretion.
PHILLIP: Governor, what do you think about all this?
FMR. GOV. TIM PAWLENTY (R-MN): Well, I think the nation's on a slippery slope. Once you start politicizing the judiciary and law enforcement, you begin to have this escalation of it. And you saw it under the Biden administration, with various acts that they took in terms of their pardons. And some of the charges against Donald Trump, I think, were not well-founded, not well-thought out from a prosecutorial perspective. And now you have Trump raising the ante.
PHILLIP: What about the one that the Justice Department was handling involving the January 6th cases?
PAWLENTY: Yes, I did read the Fischer case.
PHILLIP: His January 6th case.
PAWLENTY: The U.S. Supreme Court had a case last year in 2024. It's the Fischer case. And they said that a number of the DOJ defendants were mischarged. They weren't properly charged. That is not right, but it's also not reason -- PHILLIP: (INAUDIBLE) sort of the, I guess, seditious conspiracy charges?
PAWLENTY: No, the obstruction of justice.
PHILLIP: The obstruction of justice, I'm sorry.
PAWLENTY: The obstruction of justice charges.
PHILLIP: So, one element of the broader January 6th case.
PAWLENTY: Right. So, in those cases, not all the J6ers, but in those cases, the Department of Justice was deemed to have acted inappropriately.
[22:05:03]
That does not justify firing career prosecutors and beginning to undermine our traditions and norms in terms of justice in America.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, one of the things I think about is a lot of times charges are broad because the attorney, prosecutor believes they have standing. And then you aren't found guilty of him and that is how it's usually adjudicated in the court of law. Like every charge you charge isn't always found guilty.
I think that the timing of the release of these prosecutors was executed with almost perfection by Donald Trump because it was booked in on the Friday night of also terminating the solicitors general. And I think there is a story this administration is trying to paint. Now, I don't think the termination of the prosecutors is right, but the termination of the inspector general, excuse me, is not -- he didn't follow the law.
And to the American people, sometimes it's so much that they don't digest it all, and they can't make one -- what is different from one and the other, and they just say, like, okay, maybe he's just getting rid of people in a form of retribution. And I think that that is a slippery slope. And they did it quite well, because you have to then sometimes pick, well, what are what thing are you going to talk about in this moment?
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think, as Ashley pointed out, the other Ashley, that this is unprecedented on the prosecutor's side. But also, as you pointed out, the inspectors general, on Capitol Hill, Republicans are the ones saying that Trump needs to come tell them what's going on. Lisa Murkowski says, this kind of summary dismissal of everybody has raised concerns. Chuck Grassley said, there may be a good reason why they were fired, but we need to know. And I'd like further explanation from Trump. Collins says, I don't understand why one would fire individuals whose mission is to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, which is a very good question. Why fire the people whose job it is to look inward at the department and figure out what went wrong?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think the I.G. thing is separate from the -- in my mind, it's two separate issues, specifically on the prosecutors. I actually think it's pretty reasonable for the president who was just elected to not want people in his government that he runs who were just most recently trying to put him in jail. I mean, it seems like common sense to me that it wouldn't be right to force the president to run a government, at least which in part has been recently trying to jail him.
You know, I'm not -- I grant you that nothing wrong may have happened that they may have done everything correctly, but still he got elected. This is a government of the people that elects the president. It's not a government of the career prosecutors. And so I think for now it's fine that they're not in the government when he's not the president. And if they want to come back, I'm not sure I would have a problem with that. But I do think it's reasonable for the president to believe that the entire executive branch is, you know, rowing in the direction that he sets as the duly elected president.
AKERS: I just think that forgets the point that the Department of Justice and the attorneys in the department should act free from any political influence or will.
JENNINGS: But it's a department of the executive branch. The president appoints the attorney general. It works for the president.
AKERS: But the Department of Justice does not work for the president. The Department of Justice works for the American people.
JENNINGS: No, it works for the executive branch. It's in the Constitution. It exists in the executive branch.
AKERS: The lawyers of the Justice Department work for the American people.
JENNINGS: You're acting like it's an independent branch of government. It's in the executive branch, run by the president.
AKERS: Yes, Scott. But the lawyers of the Justice Department work for the American people, not for the president of the United States, not the person in the office.
JENNINGS: So, you don't think anyone in the executive branch is bound to the head of the executive branch?
AKERS: No. Here's the difference though. I think this is very critical. You have political appointees who serve at the pleasure of the president. They can be fired whenever, for whatever reason. The president doesn't even need to say why. These are career prosecutors. These are career inspectors general. There's actually a law that says that you cannot fire them without cause.
ALLISON: I guess, by that, by what you're saying then, if the former Department of Justice under Joe Biden actually acted under his, then there was nothing wrong with it. If everything -- by your logic, if you apply it to the last administration, which I don't think is the case, then if Joe Biden wanted to go after Donald Trump because he wanted to go after -- the attorney general, he should be able to do it, and there was no --
JENNINGS: They did go after Donald Trump because Joe Biden didn't want to do it.
ALLISON: He had a special prosecutor. No, I mean --
JENNINGS: But at the order of the president.
ALLISON: But then why is it wrong?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Scott. Hold on, Scott. You just said something that's not correct.
JENNINGS: What?
PHILLIP: You try to slip it in there. You said, at the order of the president. That is completely false.
JENNINGS: He did not appoint the prosecutor?
PHILLIP: That it is completely false that Joe Biden ordered the creation of someone to investigate Donald Trump. That did not happen now.
JENNINGS: What do you -- I mean --
PHILLIP: You just said that, and that didn't happen.
JENNINGS: They had a special prosecutor under the Biden administration that went after Donald Trump, did it not?
PHILLIP: You just said, under the order of the president. Did Joe Biden --
JENNINGS: All these things are in the executive branch.
PHILLIP: Hey, I get that.
JENNINGS: And this is my argument. It is an executive branch, and the president's at the top of it.
PHILLIP: But you have no evidence that Joe Biden ordered the investigation of --
[22:10:02]
JENNINGS: He said on the record multiple times that Donald Trump should have been thrown in jail, and instead that Merrick Garland failed by not doing.
PHILLIP: If Ashley's point is correct, that you think that it's just fine for the President of the United States to order whatever investigation he wants, what's wrong with that?
JENNINGS: I think I am making a simple personnel argument.
PHILLIP: No, what's wrong with it?
JENNINGS: The Justice Department exists in the executive branch and it exists under the president. It is not an independent agency.
PHILLIP: If that is the case, then what would be wrong with Joe Biden -- if that's the case, what would be wrong with Joe Biden saying, I'm going to order the Justice Department to go after my political enemies? Wouldn't there be nothing wrong with that by your logic?
JENNINGS: Well, I don't think that there's any problem with the president as the head of the executive branch telling the Justice Department. I think things need to be investigated here, but it's up to them. It's up to them to decide whether laws were broken.
PHILLIP: I think that is quite an extraordinary acknowledgement after four years of saying the Justice Department has been wrongly weaponized against Republicans. You are now saying, it's okay --
JENNINGS: I'm not saying it should be weaponized, but it doesn't exist separate from the president. It does not.
PAWLENTY: We have no evidence that Biden ordered it, but Biden's Justice Department did in fact go after Donald Trump. In fact, for example, when Donald Trump has classified documents, he gets prosecuted. When Biden has them in his garage, he gets written off as an old guy.
PHILLIP: Biden's Justice Department also went after his son, his Justice Department also created a special counsel that did investigate his classified -- his use of classified documents and released a scathing report that you could argue hurt him politically in an election year. So, you have to put all the cards on the table, not just the ones that you like.
PAWLENTY: It was hiding in plain sight. Trump ran on the notion that I'm going to get the folks who are trying to get me. And those folks -- wait, those folks work for the American people at the Department of Justice and the American people heard Donald Trump and they voted him into office.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That is true. He did say, Donald Trump was very clear that he was going to get into the Oval Office and work on his enemies list. He is, in fact, working on his enemies list. What he is doing with the inspectors general, with the prosecutors, and with everything else that he's doing, he is methodically going down his enemies list.
But here's the problem. He did campaign on it. And his MAGA supporters loved it.
PAWLENTY: And he got elected.
CARDONA: But the people who voted for him, who are not his MAGA supporters, voted for him because Donald Trump promised to bring down the cost of groceries, gas, and rent. And everything that he has done since he got elected does absolutely nothing to bring down the cost of groceries, gas, and rent.
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: Retribution was going to be the first thing he did on day one.
JENNINGS: This is not retribution.
CARDONA: That's right.
ALLISON: We were told we were crazy.
JENNINGS: This is not retribution.
PHILLIP: You prosecuted a lot of these January 6th, some -- I shouldn't say -- I shouldn't exaggerate, you prosecuted January 6th cases.
AKERS: A lot, yes.
PHILLIP: Donald Trump just pardoned everybody, basically. When you saw that, you resigned, why?
AKERS: I think it's -- I described this before as sort of a guttural reaction. I view this crime, having watched hundreds and hundreds of hours of video of it, as an attack not only on the Capitol building as an institution the Capitol Police officers, but also on our democracy. This was -- January 6th, these people weren't there as a coincidence. That's the day that our Congress certifies the Electoral College vote. They attacked the Capitol on that day to stop the peaceful transition of power. And that is really what's the heart of our democracy. That's what makes us different than a lot of other countries.
And so for a president to come into office and immediately absolve all crimes and all criminality and all guilt or anything and everything, it's insulting to the American people. It's insulting to the police officers who risked their lives to their lives, who gave their lives.
And, you know, the Department of Justice is a prestigious institution, the people who work there are proud to do so, and I sort of stopped feeling that at some point.
PHILLIP: Are you worried for your own safety? There have been a lot of threats that have been going around from some of these very people who were pardoned.
AKERS: There are a lot of threats. There are people right now who feel very emboldened, people who were violent criminals, who myself and my colleagues prosecuted, who are now told that what they did was not only right, but okay, and it's being condoned by the president of the United States. So, I hope that nothing happens.
And just to be clear, when the president says things like, January 6th is a national injustice and he calls these people political prisoners, that is condoning what they did.
JENNINGS: Look, this was adjudicated by the American people in November. At this point, they looked at all of this and decided to put Donald Trump back in the White House. And just back on this personnel matter, Article 2, all executive authority is vested in a president of the United States. Not in career prosecutors.
[22:15:00]
Not in some imaginary separate agency that you think exists outside of the executive branch. There's one executive branch. There's one president all of this exists underneath him, period, end of story
PHILLIP: Hold on. I'm glad, Scott, that you acknowledge that there is no weaponization of the DOJ happening in the United States government. Thank you for that acknowledgment. Ashley Akers, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, hold on.
Coming up next, President Trump is literally producing a made for T.V. show of his deportations, from telling ICE agents to be camera ready, to having Dr. Phil tag along for the raids. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
Plus, MAGA goes after actress Selena Gomez for her tears over the crackdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SELENA GOMEZ, ACTRESS: I'm so sorry to all the people that are getting attacked.
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PHILLIP: President Trump is, of course, a television producer, and this is made for T.V. immigration, and it's a story he wants the entire American public to watch. ICE agents in cities near you outfitted with military-style equipment detaining migrants that Trump administration labels as dangerous. And this Trump-produced story comes complete with a popular television host.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're Dr. Phil? Yes, Dr. Phil.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, T.V. HOST: Yes. How do you know me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I've seen Dr. Phil, you know, on T.V.
MCGRAW: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MCGRAW: You've been charged with sex crimes with children?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really.
MCGRAW: Not really? And never been deported?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nope.
MCGRAW: Let's take him in and process him, lock him up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's a clip posted by, yes, Dr. Phil, from what he called a ride along with ICE agents and Trump Immigration Czar Tom Homan.
Dr. Phil and the MAGA folks that he wants to see this believe that this is all must-see T.V. Some people can't bear to look, though. They include Selena Gomez, who posted this video after later deleting it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOMEZ: I'm so sorry, all the people that are getting attacked. It's so bad. They don't understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Maria Santana. She is an anchor and correspondent for CNN Espanol. Maria, great to have you here.
I mean, you've been covering this immigration issue for a very long time, so you've seen it all.
MARIA SANTANA, CNN ESPANOL ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
PHILLIP: I imagine. There is a quality to this that is about making sure that we do see it.
SANTAN: Right.
PHILLIP: And the Trump team, according to our reporting, they've told ICE agents to be ready for cameras. They are using military planes, even though charter flights are cheaper. They want this to be a show. What are you -- are you seeing a difference, though, in substance of what's happening right now?
SANTANA: Well, not as much in terms of the people that are being arrested. It hasn't changed very much from the Biden administration. But what we are seeing is a lot of fear in these communities. And I think that the point of showing these arrests, of making people believe that ICE is right around the corner, that they're going to bust into churches and schools and hospitals, is to gin up a lot of fear, to make it very uncomfortable for immigrants to live in this country and also to deter other migrants from coming into the country illegally because they're not going to have a good time.
That's the message that is being sent. But at the same time, it is very paralyzing for these communities. I've been out speaking to immigrants this last week, talking to activists, talking to religious leaders, to elected leaders, and what they're seeing is people who haven't left their homes because since January 20th, people who are not sending their children to school who are sending their neighbors to take their kids to school or go out to get them groceries who haven't been going back to church just because they are so afraid of getting deported.
And for most people, it's about family. It's about being separated from their families. And what are they going to do if they get picked up and have to leave their children behind? So, I think the fear is the difference.
PHILLIP: I mean, and the fear is the point. I mean, that is what they are trying to do. But, Maria, look, it is, it seems, working to a degree. I mean, border crossings has have slowed in the last several weeks. They were slowing already under Biden, but they are continuing to slow. It is working to a degree. And if most of these people are people who already have deportation orders, already have criminal records, that is something that I don't necessarily think even Democrats can oppose because those people still would have been deported under Biden.
CARDONA: A couple things. First of all, no one opposes the deportation of violent criminals. You know, yes, leave here. Get out of here. We don't want you here. There's no question about that. There's never been a question about that. The Biden administration, the Obama administration, the first Trump administration, the George Bush's administration, all administrations have always focused on the most violent criminals.
What is going on now, though, Abby, and what is really working, actually, is not necessarily the deterrence because you're right, the numbers were already down historically. They were less when Joe Biden was in office than when Trump was in office. So, it's really all for show right now.
And while I understand that this is something that he ran on, the fear and the panic and the division is, I think, something that we should all be concerned about because people are staying home.
[22:25:05]
The central valley, you have agricultural fields that have been empty, and those fields are starting to rot. This is going to start having an effect on our economy. You have textile factories, meat processing plants, where workers are not going and things are not getting done. That is where we are going to feel it.
And you also starting to have images of people, of families, who are being violently separated from one another where the person who is being taken away, the only thing that they have against them is that they're here without documents. Tom Homan was on earlier on with Kaitlan Collins, and he said that they're focused on the most violent criminals. Today, The New York Times story said that half of the people that they arrested today did not have a criminal record. So, they are being very indiscriminate. And that to me is not something that is a good strategy.
JENNINGS: If I may, if you came into the country illegally, you're a criminal. You broke our laws. You knew it when you did it.
SANTANA: The majority of immigrants, that is pretty much the only crime that they've committed. It's either entering or reentering the country.
JENNINGS: I know, but it's crime. You just said the critical issue.
SANTANA: You've been living here for like 20, 30 years.
JENNINGS: I understand.
SANTANA: You've built businesses, you've built homes. Yes, I understand. You are part of the fabric of the country, you're part of the community.
JENNINGS: I understand. You have broken the law.
SANTANA: And that is not only that affects Immigrant family or the people that are getting their family members supported, that affects all of society. I know when kids start asking, why hasn't my best friend come back to school? Why is, you know, my -- why didn't my friend disappear? When businesses start to shutter, when --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: By the way, no amount of berating me about this is going to change the fact that the American people literally just voted for this.
ALLISON: You're right?
JENNINGS: They want the criminals out. They want the violent people out and there's really not much of a controversy about it.
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: Finish the sentence, because your point, right, before you said that was you committed a crime because you came across the border.
JENNINGS: Correct.
ALLISON: So, the sentence that you want to say is they want the violent people out and they want the criminals out and they want everybody else out. So, there you have it.
JENNINGS: They want illegal immigration to end. They want it to end.
ALLISON: So when people say -- I'm just saying, like, let's just call it what it is. When people say, we don't want people -- we're afraid that people are going to go into churches or schools, you don't care that they're going into churches and schools. You don't care if children are afraid. You don't care if families get ripped apart. Just say that. And then I can like have a --
PAWLENTY: I do think, there's a couple things that have been said that I think are inaccurate or out of context. One of which is the idea that it was just as good under Biden. That is patently false. Biden belatedly, at the end of his presidency, did some things through executive actions that the last six months made the numbers look better.
PHILLIP: I didn't say it was just as good.
PAWLENTY: She did, but --
CARDONA: No, I said the numbers were lower under Biden when Biden left than when Trump was in office, and that is a fact.
JENNINGS: No, over four-year to four-year.
CARDONA: When Biden left --
JENNINGS: Four-year to four-year.
PAWLENTY: The New York Times --
JENNINGS: You can tell the truth.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Maria, hold on. I want the governor to --
PAWLENTY: The New York Times, which is no conservative publication, did investigative reporting not long ago that looked at the Biden administration and concluded that the number of illegal immigrants that President Biden led into this country was the largest number of legal immigrants in the history of the country, bar none, New York Times.
Beyond that, this point about Scott just raised, the American people are fed up with illegal immigration. They're particularly fed up with people who are criminals and also fugitives from the law. Tom Homan may get to the point where he's in schools or hospitals. We'll see if criminals are hiding there. They're not there yet. And the idea that somehow this is offensive to go after rapists, murderers, sex traffickers --
CARDONA: That's offensive, Governor. No one is saying --
PAWLENTY: But now those numbers are going to ramp up. I'll just make a prediction to you. Trump will increase those numbers well beyond what you saw under Biden.
And lastly, there's a million-plus fugitives beyond the criminals who've already been adjudicated, have already had due process, that are in the United States. So once they get done with the gangbangers, the sex traffickers, the weapons merchants, the other folks who are involved in heinous crimes, then they can get to work on 1.2 million fugitives who've already been adjudicated, and get them out of the country. And when they get that all done, maybe we can get around to some of the other ones. PHILLIP: We played a clip actually of Selena Gomez at the top and she's getting raked over the coals to the point where she had to delete it. What do you make of it?
ALLISON: I saw it tonight. I mean, I think that this is an issue for some people that is extremely emotional and it invokes tears. And if that is -- like, I'm not going to demean Selena Gomez because she was emotionally enraged.
I think I'm going to say something that might not be popular with my Democratic friends or even my Latino brothers and sisters. I think that there is a moment right now we're having in our country where, at the end of the day, Donald Trump was elected not because people of color put him in office, but a significant amount of Latinos did vote for Donald Trump. And they voted for Donald Trump because they didn't think that you were going to finish the sentence. They didn't think that they were going to --
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I totally disagree. I completely disagree.
ALLISON: You could disagree but we now are seeing clips of people saying, I didn't think they were going to take my family. I didn't think they were going to come after the Cuban community. I didn't think they were -- and they are. And so, I guess I'm just saying as like, elections have consequences and now we are experiencing the consequences of this election.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Scott, I'm shocked that you disagree because you've been saying for weeks elections have consequences. What Ashley just said is that voters voted for deportations including many Hispanic voters and this is the consequence.
JENNINGS: What I disagree with -- what I disagree with --
MARIA SANTANA, CNN EN ESPANOL ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I spoke to many Latino voters, Trump supporters. Surprised me how many Latino Trump supporters I found, this election cycle versus other cycles, and they wanted to vote for Trump on the economy.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Exactly.
SANTANA: They agreed about criminals being deported
CARDONA: Exactly. Exactly.
SANTANA: -- from this country because you will not have any Latinos celebrating --
CARDONA: Yes.
SANTANA: -- rapists and the most dangerous criminals --
CARDONA: None.
SANTANA: -- being here if they're here illegally. TIM PAWLENTY (R) FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: But so far --
SANTANA: But they will say, but they said when I asked, what about mass deportations? It seems like it's everybody, not just criminals. They would say, oh, Trump is not going to do that.
CARDONA: They didn't believe it. I have them on tape.
PHILLIP: Scott, go ahead.
JENNINGS: I know, you have all the anecdotes.
CARDONA: Yes.
JENNINGS: The assertion -- the assertion that all American voters did not know exactly what Donald Trump is going to do. Oh, they didn't think it is totally false. There was a mass amount of polling during the campaign. Hispanic Americans supported deportations. In majority, you and I debated this many times.
CARDONA: Yes, that's not true.
JENNINGS: You claimed it wasn't true. And then what they do? They went and voted for Donald Trump.
ALLISON: Yes, and now --
JENNINGS: The election was -- there is no buyer's remorse. The people who followed our laws and came here legally are more than happy to see the laws enforced.
CARDONA: But here's what's being missed. I think this is very critical. In a vacuum, yes, majority of Americans do support mass deportation, Scott. But you have seen this also in polls. When you start telling them, what that means, right?
JENNINGS: Illegals leaving, they support it.
CARDONA: No. No.
JENNINGS: They support that.
CARDONA: Yes, they support the criminals. Let me finish. When you -- when you start telling them what that means -- Dreamers, veterans, teachers, first responders, their family, then they say, you know what? These are people that have been here for 30 years.
They have contributed trillions of dollars to our economy. I prefer to give them a pathway to citizenship. So, you know what the solve is, Scott, in order to get rid of all of those illegals? Let's give them a pathway to citizenship. That is a win-win for the economy, for us, and for our future.
PHILLIP: We're going to go here.
JENNINGS: You're fighting the last battle. He's fighting the next one.
PHILLIP: Maria Santana, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, stick around. Coming up next, Elon Musk speaks to Germany's far- right party just days before International Holocaust Remembrance Day. And his remarks are, of course, getting big backlash. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat at the table to discuss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:37:35]
PHILLIP: Tonight, never forget. Today is Holocaust Remembrance Day, when the world pauses to seriously think about one of the most depraved chapters in human history, to think about the systematic extermination of people. But Judge advised comments over the weekend, and Elon Musk might not be thinking about any of that today.
Musk appeared at a rally for the AFD, they are Germany's far-right party, and on the stage, Musk was asked -- Musk asked the world to give Germany permission to forget.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: It's good to be proud of German culture, German values, and not to lose that in some sort of multi-culturalism that dilutes everything. I think there's like frankly too much of a focus on past guilt and we need to move beyond that. People --children should not be guilty of the sins of their parents or even let alone their parents, their great- grandparents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is CNN Economics commentator, Catherine Rampell. She is a "Washington Post" opinion columnist. That -- what Elon Musk just said there is music to the ears of the AFD. According to the Anti-Defamation League, some of their leaders have twice been fined by a German court for using a banned Nazi symbol. They've called for Germany to stop atoning for Nazi crimes.
And a judge ruled that one AFD leader could be described as fascist without fear of defamation because it is, quote, "a value judgment based on facts". And these are the people that Musk is saying, don't worry about the Holocaust, we can forget about it.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: Look, the first time that Elon Musk decides to declare that globalist Jews are responsible for the great replacement of brown people into the United States, maybe it was a misunderstanding.
You know, the second time he said that "Jews are pushing hatred against white people, "that's a quote, you know, that was a little iffy. By the second Sieg Heil, I think he kind of loses the benefit of the doubt to be not accused of playing footsie with these Nazis. I'm not saying he's a Nazi, I'm saying the Nazis think he's a Nazi,
which they very clearly did at this event. And this was not -- these words were not said in a vacuum. As you pointed out, the leaders of AFD have embraced in many cases the Nazi heritage.
[22:40:02]
They have wanted to take down the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, saying it is inappropriate to recognize this horrific chapter in German history. And I just think it's horrific. I don't understand why this guy keeps getting the benefit of the doubt, whether or not he believes this stuff personally.
PHILLIP: You didn't even mention the Nazi jokes --
RAMPELL: Oh, absolutely.
PHILLIP: -- he was making on Twitter --
RAMPELL: Yeah. He's been given so many chances.
PHILLIP: That actually got the ADL to say something about it.
RAMPELL: Yeah.
PHILLIP: I was hearing a lot of sighing, Scott. What's the deal?
JENNINGS: Yeah, I mean, we've moved on from Trump derangement syndrome to Elon derangement syndrome.
RAMPELL: No, I'm sorry, do you want to defend missing -- the Germans get to defend --
JENNINGS: There's ample --
RAMPELL: -- the Germans get to defend --
PHILLIP: Let me let him finish, Catherine.
JENNINGS: I love this game we play where you talk for two minutes, I talk for three seconds --
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Scott.
JENNINGS: -- and you freak out. So -- so, he has a long record of supporting the Jewish people, number one. Number two, anybody who is asserting this thing he did on the stage the other day was a Sieg Heil, which I just heard you say, you know, lawyer up maybe, because absolute ridiculous thing to say under no circumstances --
RAMPELL: The Nazis in Germany thought it was a Sieg Heil. The Nazis in Germany thought it was a Sieg-Heil.
JENNINGS: Under no circumstances was he doing anything other than expressing enthusiastically --
RAMPELL: Why don't you do it on TV right now?
JENNINGS: -- his appreciation to the crowd.
RAMPELL: Why don't you do it on TV right now if you think it's so --
PHILLIP: Look, hold on.
RAMPELL: -- so, you know --
JENNINGS: Number three. I think it is fully appropriate and I of course have been the strongest supporter of the Jewish people on this network for over a year since October the 7th --
RAMPELL: Is that true?
JENNINGS: -- to remember -- to remember the Holocaust and to remember the atrocities committed against the Jewish people. And I also think it's appropriate to remember the atrocities committed against them right now and it seems to me, let me just finish my point, it seems to me --
PHILLIP: No, I won't let you change the subject.
JENNINGS: It seems to me.
PHILLIP: Let's address what we're talking about.
JENNINGS: I'm trying to finish my point.
RAMPELL: As the Jew at this table --
JENNINGS: I'm trying to finish my point.
RAMPELL: --I would say --
JENNINGS: The people who are most concerned about and are most over Elon Musk today have had nary a word for the Nazis on college campuses who've gone crazy for the last year and a half.
PHILLIP: That is not real.
CAMPELL: That is bull. That is bull. I am a Jew who has criticized the people on college campuses for saying anti-Semitic things. I will go on the record as saying that I am also criticizing this man who a day or two before Holocaust Remembrance Day makes light of this moment, this horrific moment in German history, the reason why Germans remember this moment.
JENNINGS: He's not. I don't believe he's making light of it. I disagree with that.
RAMPELL: He is, absolutely.
PHILLIP: This is why I want you to address what we are talking about here because I -- you can talk all-day about college campuses. But Elon Musk, two days before Holocaust Remembrance Day, went and spoke in front of a far-right party that, as part of their platform, wants to atone. They want to erase the idea that Germany is responsible for this terrible thing --
RAMPELL: A lot of them deny the Holocaust even happened.
PHILLIP: -- in history. They want to deny the Holocaust. He decided, the thing I'm going to do today is speak before a bunch of far-right people who in their own country have been sent to court for using banned Nazi symbols, really?
JENNINGS: Look, look, I think, I think, it is possible to do two things. One, support the Jewish people in the memory of the victims of the Holocaust. And number two, say something that is actually, factually correct. Nobody being born today is responsible for whatever in the Holocaust.
RAMPELL: Do you know why we remember the Holocaust?
JENNINGS: Just like nobody being born today is responsible for slavery.
RAMPELL: Do you know why we remember the Holocaust? Do you know why it's important to teach --
ALLISON: So it never happens again.
RAMPELL: It's so that we can understand --
JENNINGS: Agree. And I totally support that.
RAMPELL: It's so that we can understand normal seeming people -- it's so we can understand how normal seeming people can be complicit in horrific acts.
ALLISON: I think -- yeah.
RAMPELL: That is the purpose of understanding and remembering the Holocaust.
JENNINGS: And what horrific act is Elon Musk endorsing today, in your opinion?
RAMPELL: I don't know, detention camps?
JENNINGS: Come on. Come on.
PHILLIP: Well, look.
RAMPELL: What do you mean, come on?
ALLISON: I mean --
JENNINGS: I mean, you are way off the rails.
PHILLIP: I think it's kind of --
RAMPELL: I'm off the rails. You're the one who defended Sieg Heil as a normal activity.
PHILLIP: Scott, just a second. Scott.
JENNINGS: This is -- this salute trutherism is out -- this is the most --
RAMPELL: So do it right now on TV.
JENNINGS: This is the biggest conspiracy theory going on on media.
RAMPELL: So do it right now on TV. If you think it's normal, if you think this is a normal way to greet people, do it right now on TV. Why won't you?
PHILLIP: I want to redirect us here because I get it. It's easier for you to defend for whatever reason, the Sieg Heil. Okay, fine. But --
JENNINGS: Is that what you're calling it? Are you saying it's your position that he was giving a Nazi salute?
PHILLIP: No, no, I am saying, you just called it a Sieg Heil, truth or is it not a thing?
JENNINGS: She did.
PHILLIP: That is the conversation that you want to have. But there's another part of the conversation.
JENNINGS: She brought it up.
PHILLIP: Hold on. That is about Elon Musk has his pattern of behavior that includes giving support to individuals who in their own country are believed to be so far to the right that they are adjacent to the Nazis. That is what's going on in Germany. I mean, I mean, I wonder when you hear --
JENNINGS: I'm sorry, that's what the Democrats argued about the Republicans in the last election. I mean, in the United States. They called them fascists and they called them Nazi rallies. That's what they did.
PHILLIP: Scott.
JENNINGS: That's what -- see? You're doing it right now.
ALLISON: I'm just saying --
JENNINGS: Go ahead and say it out loud. Say that Republicans are Nazis. Say it. Go ahead.
RAMPELL: I can't believe you're defending this.
ALLISON: I think there is an adult way to handle this conversation.
PHILLIP: I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be putting this all on the line for the AFD. Like, really? [22:45:00]
JENNINGS: I'm not an expert on German politics.
PHILLIP: Okay, so then maybe you should --
JENNINGS: But I'm saying, but you're like, oh, these people are Nazi -- I hear d that same thing at this table for six months last year.
PHILLIP: Maybe before you should defend -- before you defend them, let me -- I need to read this again. Okay. According to the ADL, there have been leaders of this political party that have been twice fined by a German court for using banned Nazi symbols. They have also called for Germany to stop atoning for Nazi, okay?
JENNINGS: There are leaders of the Democratic Party United States --
PHILLIP: There are people --
JENNINGS: -- who condone anti-Semitism to date.
PHILLIP: Okay -- leaders. The co-founders of this party engaged in extremist speech to the extent that a judge ruled that that leader could be described as fascist, okay? These are people --
JENNINGS: Literally all things I heard last year in America. All the things.
PHILLIP: -- who even within Germany are viewed to be extremists, and I'm surprised to hear you defend them.
RAMPELL: So, are you saying, like, are you saying 50 percent of Republicans deny the existence of the Holocaust because that's the case for AFD members?
JENNINGS: I don't know anything about German politics. I am not an expert on German politics. I am telling you, I am here to stand up against the defamatory statements against Elon Musk.
PHILLIP: I think we have to go.
PAWLENTY: Just briefly.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
PAWLENTY: Just briefly. January 27th today is International Holocaust Remembrance or Memorial Day. Today of all days is a great day to have this discussion, and by the way, that Elon's comments were, we should move beyond. I don't think we should ever move beyond remembering the Holocaust, the horrors of the Holocaust, the accountability around how and why it happened, who it impacted, the lessons learned in history. It should resonate forever in our minds and in our conscience and our moral presence.
And so, I don't want to move beyond -- nobody should move beyond those lessons. So you know, he says a lot of things. Let's face it. He is a brilliant, eccentric, provocative, you know, person. And he's going to say a lot of things. This one was out of line.
PHILLIP: Are you okay with him speaking in front of this group?
PAWLENTY: The AFD?
PHILLIP: Yeah.
PAWLENTY: I don't know much about it other than what you just said. It's not a group I would recommend, you know, people talking to with that kind of record.
RAMPELL: I would just say we should look at this in the context of all of the other things Elon Musk has done. This is not a one-off event where he spoke to a right-wing group. Again, he has said he thinks that Jews are pushing hatred against white people. That's why he had to do his little, like, apology tour going to Auschwitz, which apparently he's very resentful of.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, the Great Replacement Theory, I mean, I heard another sigh from Scott. But the Great Replacement Theory is an anti- Semitic racist theory. Like that is what it is. So, he endorsed -- and he endorsed it, so there is that.
We don't know what the gesture he made, what it really means. Catherine has made her judgment, you've made yours, but it's all the other stuff that we are talking about. Why does he keep doing it? I don't get it.
CARDONA: It is all the other stuff, Abby. And none of it can be taken in a vacuum, which is what makes it so disturbing, because all of it together, this is not the first group that he talks to that what he says and what he does and the gestures that he makes give comfort to neo-Nazis. I mean, that's the reality.
And the fact that he gives comfort to neo-Nazis should give a ton of discomfort to people who are Elon Musk supporters especially because he has the ear of the President of the United States.
RAMPELL: Especially if you're the greatest defender of Jews on this network, you should be discomforted by this.
JENNINGS: All the same rhetoric that they applied to the Republican Party and to Donald Trump in the general election last year, it has literally just been transferred to Elon Musk. All of it.
ALLISON: I think -- I don't think that is accurate, but what I will say is that I don't know what that gesture was he did on stage, but I know if I was accused of doing it and that wasn't what I meant, I would make sure I wasn't doing that.
That's, I think, the adult thing to do, say, I'm sorry if that was what it came off as, but that would never be because this is what I believe. And then I wouldn't follow it a week later by being in front of people who deny the Holocaust. I just think that, like, a student, a child could see that. PHILLIP: Well, look, not everything needs to be defended, even if you
think he's a genius. There are some lines that we just don't cross. Catherine Rampell, thank you very much for joining us. Back in a moment.
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[22:53:37]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. Starbucks is bringing back some policies that they got rid of during the pandemic. That includes the baristas handwriting customers' names incorrectly on their cups and Sharpies. You all have 30 seconds to tell us what throwbacks you think a company should bring back. Maria, you're up.
CARDONA: Ah, the things of the past. The big palace movie houses where you showed just one big movie, the blockbuster of the summer, where you actually had to go and make a huge, line, maybe an hour, maybe two hours, but it was the movie of the summer that you had to go see. It was rich. The chairs were huge. It was wonderful. You almost went dressed up. It was kind of a date night thing. RIP Uptown Theater in D.C.
PHILLIP: Did not know about that one. Go ahead, Tim.
PAWLENTY: Well, I'm from Minnesota and as everybody knows it's a very cold place and there was a time in my childhood where gas stations, the attendant would come out in the middle of winter and all year long, and for everybody -- it didn't matter -- he'd pump your gas for you and clean your windshield. And in the dead of winter, when it was freezing cold, you did not have to get out of your car to pump your gas.
PHILLIP: Don't they do that in New Jersey?
PAWLENTY: And it was so nice. It was so nice.
CARDONA: They did. Only New Jersey.
PAWLENTY: It was a lay-out.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Ashley.
ALLISON: Well, I think common sense should come back, but no, that's not my name tag. Roller Rinks. I remember going to the Skate Connection when I was a little girl.
[22:55:00]
Sunday night skate parties, birthday parties, people in the culture who can dance on skates, all the things. It's a dying art. And I think Roller Rinks should come back in every small town and major city.
JENNINGS: We still have a Roller Rink in Louisville. They do a lot of school. ALLISON: Oh good.
JENNINGS: It's still a big thing. Yeah. Very, very cool. Well, mine is, when I was a kid, Pizza Hut, Red Roof Pizza Hut, going to Pizza Hut, sitting at a table, Tabletop video games, salad bar and taking home one of those beautiful, sweet Looney Tunes glasses, which became a staple of the glassware in the Jennings household.
I just don't think we have experiences like that anymore. When I was a kid, getting over to the Pizza Hut was like fine dining. I almost felt like you needed a reservation to be there and it was glorious.
PHILLIP: That's why I never went to Pizza Hut. It's so fancy for me. Everyone, thank you very much. "Laura Coates Live" starts right after this.
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