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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip

40 Bodies Recovered so Far from Crash, Black Box Found; Probe Intensifies in Deadliest U.S. Plane Crash in 24 Years; Trump Baselessly Blames Democrats, DEI for Deadly Plane Crash. Rescuers Scouring For More Debris; Nine Lives Lost From Fairfax County; President Trump Points His Finger to Democrats. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 30, 2025 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Abby Philip in New York, and this is CNN's special live coverage of the nation's deadliest plane crash in nearly a quarter century.

Tonight, wind, ice, and jet fuel and debris all hampering the search for the remains of the passengers aboard that American Airlines flight that collided with a military helicopter.

Here is what we know at this hour. There are no survivors and the NTSB says 40 bodies so far have been recovered from the wreckage. One of the black boxes from that plane has now been found and recovered. The cause, though, is still a mystery. Whether it was human error or mechanical, a source tells us one air traffic controller was working two different tower positions at the time of the collision. The Army also says the instructor pilot on the Black Hawk had thousands of hours of experience, while the co-pilot had half that.

As investigators dig for answers, the grief now is just unspeakable for so many communities affected by this crash. We are learning about young students aboard the U.S. figure skaters, two of them considered the future of the sport, along with their mothers. More on their lives coming up in this hour.

But, first, the investigation. Let's go straight to Anderson Cooper. He's live at the site of this crash. Anderson, tell us about the scene where you are behind you and also this new information about what appears to be another close call that happened at this busy part of Reagan National Airport just days before this crash.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, well, first of all, you know, we are outside Reagan National Airport. We're on the Virginia side, Washington is over there, the Potomac is there. You can still see some boats, some launches out on the water at this late hour and they are going to be out there all night, we're told.

They don't have divers in the water currently. It's too treacherous for that given the conditions, given the lack of light, the frigid temperatures, but they are continuing, they say, to search the surface of the water up and down this stretch of the Potomac. The debris field, they say, is quite large so they have a lot of distance to cover and they are just going back and forth. You can see kind of blue lights on small craft. We're told that's going to be going on all night long.

As you said, Abby, they have they have recovered 40 people, men, women, and children. There were children on board that flight from Wichita, Kansas. We know of several young children who were in their 11, 12 years old who were skaters, very promising skaters there. There're so many stories which are just starting to come out.

But you mentioned the other incident, which CNN has learned about, occurred the day before this collision. It involved another aircraft that was approaching for a landing and then was essentially waved off, was told that there was a helicopter nearby, over near Georgetown, and then the plane was told not to land. So, they actually diverted that plane. It came back around and then landed safely.

So, more to be learned about that. If that tells anything about -- if that has any commonality with what occurred here last night we don't know, but there's certainly a lot of questions. But it is so strange to be here in this scene because there's this activity happening out on the water and yet the planes now are taking off yet again.

[22:05:01]

Traffic is moving along. It's very eerie at night to know what is out there on the water and to know that all those crews are working around the clock and the difficult work that they have ahead of them.

CNN's Tom Foreman has more about the sheer amount of air traffic here at Reagan National. Tom, what have you learned?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. In many ways, this really is the news of the day. We mentioned that Tuesday night, another jet was forced to abort landing because of nearby helicopter. We have also discovered in our analysis here that two other near passenger plane helicopter collisions occurred in the past three years, and there was an instance of helicopters too close together. Why is this happening? Because this is one of the busiest airspaces in the country right around here.

This is a class B airspace, and I want to talk about what that means for a minute here. What that means is that this is basically the sort of upside down wedding cake of airspace. That's what they often call it above the airport. This is about 60 miles across up here, 10,000 feet high.

This area is where the planes are mainly taking off and landing. They need that space to operate freely. Many, many helicopter flights, dozens of them, fly down the river and pass here every single day. They stay below 200 feet. That is very low if you see it. It's really shocking to see. The reason? So, they can stay underneath these upper layers of the wedding cake. So, planes that are coming in to land, they are at a different elevation. The helicopters are very low. The only place that they have to be together is right when they get down to the landing level, and that's where these close calls occur because now they have to be in the exact same height, and they have to look out for each other.

Who's responsible for this? Well, the air traffic control tower is partially responsible for it. Each of the pilots is responsible for it. They have to look for each other. And I talked to a pilot today who said sometimes you know a helicopter is there, and you simply cannot see it. This is one of the questions they're looking at in this very, very crowded space, Anderson.

COOPER: For more, I want to bring in CNN Aviation Analyst Mary Schiavo, along with retired Rear Admiral for the U.S. Navy Mark Montgomery. I appreciate both of you being with us.

Mary, just in terms of this investigation, what stands out to you at this hour?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, this hour what stands out are the number of things that they have already accomplished. Obviously, they have a lot more work to do, but as the operations on the water continue, what's happening behind the scenes as the NTSB moves into position to start this massive investigation, along with the Defense Department. starting an investigation. And remember, they're going to be looking for not just the facts, which they will uncover and they've made great strides to that already, but they will be looking for what they can do to make change because the NTSB always makes recommendations not just findings, and that will be very important because we've all seen a lot of things here that need to change.

COOPER: Mark, for you what are the biggest questions you have?

MARK MONTGOMERY, SENIOR FELLO, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: So, when you look at what the causal factors of something like this could be, they could be technical, you know, equipment on the aircrafts or in the radar systems of the airport. It could be personnel, you know, either air traffic control or pilot. But it could also be procedural. In other words, this is the right way to conduct flight operations in a dense airport environment.

COOPER: But why -- can you talk a little bit about these Black Hawks that are flying? There's a corridor that military helicopters and aircraft are using.

MONTGOMERY: That's right. There's a mission. After 9/11, we began a very serious patrol by military aircraft of the river area. And so there's a center lane down the river, a Lane 4 that the aircraft operated at different altitudes where the collision was. You know, it's about 200 feet and below. And they also have a logistics role to play over at the Pentagon. So, the 12th Combat Aviation Brigade, operating out of Fort Belvoir, operates here routinely, daily, hourly. It's not unusual.

COOPER: If you're interested in the black boxes that have been found, what kind of information, how quickly will that information get out?

SCHIAVO: Well, the black box, I understand, the first black box that was found was the data recorder. That will take a little longer than the cockpit voice recorder. The flight data recorder literally records dozens, if not hundreds of parameters, depending upon the age of the black box. Everything from positioning of all control surfaces, various airspeeds, engine settings, flap settings, you name it. If it's some kind of a setting or a position on the aircraft, the flight data recorder will have that and they download it and they have to analyze it. It is literally a computer printout.

The cockpit voice recorder will contain obviously the information as to what the crew knew, what any sounds that they heard, if they had a chance to, you know, give any instructions to the passengers.

[22:10:00]

And it's literally all the sounds in the cockpit, which will help find out once for all if they saw the helicopter at all.

COOPER: Mark, in terms of air traffic controllers, obviously, look, the president raised a lot of theories without evidence about his opinions. There's going to be a lengthy investigation. For people who are going to an airport tomorrow to get on a plane, what do you say to people?

MONTGOMERY: I say that aviation and flight safety is still significantly safer than driving, than road safety in terms of distance of miles and accidents. This is not a condemnation of the performance of air traffic controllers or pilots around the country. And the kind of speculation here, you know, that what drives this is almost nonsensical, particularly the president's comments on DEI. It's not based in logic. And if anything, you know, and it's inappropriate because it does have that effect on the American population. They should understand, it's completely safe

COOPER: Mary, for air traffic controllers, I mean, there have been a lot of reports about understaffing. You know, it's a high pressure job. Are there changes that need to occur?

SCHIAVO: Yes, there are changes that need to occur. And those reports, you know, were documented. They were documented by the inspectors general and others. And some airports are worse than others in some locations, New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia, some places had far worse shortages.

Obviously, air traffic control tried to make up for it with overtime, which was also criticized because controllers were very tired, management, et cetera. But that's not acceptable. You know, under the best of conditions, we need to change that and I think the government is moving to change that. But it takes a long time to train an air traffic controller. It's very expensive. And about a third of them wash out because it's very rigorous.

COOPER: Mary, Mark, I appreciate you both joining us in this difficult day. Abby, back to you. PHILLIP: Thank you, Anderson.

Coming up next for us, what would the pilots of the helicopter and the commercial jet have even seen before their collision? We're going to take you inside the cockpits, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:15:00]

PHILLIP: Continuing to follow the breaking news of the deadliest U.S. aviation crash in nearly 24 years. We'll take you back to Anderson at the scene in just a moment. But, first, this is the moment of that midair crash, that collision between an American Airlines passenger jet and the Black Hawk helicopter.

Joining me now is an aviation lawyer, Alan Armstrong. He is inside a cockpit similar to the one that the passenger jet would have been like. Alan, what did the pilots of this passenger plane, what would they have been able to see before the crash?

ALAN ARMSTRONG, AVIATION LAWYER: Well, first of all, Abby, it's good to be with you again. At night, about 90 percent of your vision goes away. Your vision at night is vastly reduced. So, from what we've seen so far, I'm going to suggest that these pilots have no awareness of an impending disaster. I don't think they saw each other coming. If they had, they'd have taken evasive action (INAUDIBLE).

PHILLIP: So, you've mentioned how there is a system called TCAS. It's a traffic collision and avoidance system, but it shows or it indicates different things to the pilots depending on the altitude. This was a very low altitude that these aircraft were flying at. What would they have seen and heard at this altitude of the crash?

ARMSTRONG: Abby, the TCAS system is very useful above 1,000 feet or 1,500 feet, but not very useful at low altitudes because functions of the system are disabled. You don't want to be giving commands to a pilot to alter course or altitude when they're only 500 feet above the ground.

So, the TCAS system is not helpful to you at 400 feet where this collision occurred. The functions have been disabled, and there's a reason for that. So, that's just not helpful. You can't expect TCAs to solve all of your problems, especially when pilots are in situations they're not supposed to be in, and I can elaborate upon that if you wish me to do so.

PHILLIP: Well, tell us about one of the aspects -- this is another important aspect of information that we just learned about today. A source told CNN that at the time of this crash, one of the controllers in the air traffic control tower was operating two different positions, both the local. And the helicopter traffic that is, according to what we've heard, not uncommon, but I'm wondering in this scenario where you have a ton of helicopter traffic and also a lot of commercial air traffic, could that have contributed to this crash? ARMSTRONG: To be perfectly honest with you from what I know, I don't think so. What we have here is we have routes for these helicopters to fly above the Potomac. And they're restricted out to in that area is 200 feet. This helicopter was at 400 feet. So, that's the contributing factor in my estimation.

PHILLIP: Can I ask you one more?

ARMSTRONG: And I can elaborate upon that if you want.

PHILLIP: Let me ask you a follow up to that.

ARMSTRONG: Sure.

PHILLIP: Air traffic control, would they have been aware, or should they have been aware, that the helicopter was at the wrong altitude, at the same altitude of this plane?

ARMSTRONG: Assuming that the helicopter was equipped with Mode C, which is altitude reporting information, the answer is yes. If the helicopter was equipped with ADSB, Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcasting, the answer is yes.

[22:20:05]

So, I would defer to a Black Hawk helicopter pilot as to what kind of equipment that aircraft had.

PHILLIP: And, Alan Armstrong, thank you very much. We will do exactly as you just suggested. Thank you for joining us. Anderson?

COOPER: Abby, thanks very much. Joining me now is Congressman Gabe Evans. He's a former commander in the Army and a pilot who flew Black Hawk helicopters. Congressman, I appreciate you being with us, and I am sorry it's under these circumstances.

What's your thought on what these Black Hawk helicopter pilots were seeing, what may have gone wrong? What do you think?

REP. GABE EVANS (R-CO): Yes, so as we've heard, this is a nighttime flights. It sounds like the Blackhawk helicopter air crew was equipped with night vision goggles. The limitation for night vision goggles as well, they're very good at amplifying the light, they give you an incredibly small field of view. Your normal field of view top to bottom is about 130 degrees. Your field of view left to right, including your peripheral vision is about 200 degrees.

When you're looking through the standard issue night vision goggles that most helicopter air crews are issued, that's a 40 degree field of view. And you also lose a lot of depth perception when you're looking through them. So, in a very busy area, and that's something that I'm familiar with operating in. I flew in and around the Denver airspace, which is one of the top five busiest airports in the country. When there's a lot of lights and a lot of motion going on, it's entirely possible that these pilots could have received an advisory from air traffic control, be aware of company traffic and identified the wrong aircraft.

COOPER: Well, let me ask you about the night vision, because I know usually it's able to be flicked up or down depending on what the pilot or the operator wants. But, obviously, night vision works in total darkness. But if there's a lot of city lights, as there are, I mean, there's a lot of lights around there in Georgetown and elsewhere, that also can interfere with night vision, can it?

EVANS: It can. And so, as you said, the night vision goggles amplify the light, but how much they amplify the light depends on where you're looking and how much ambient lighting is around. And so I know from flying around the Denver metro area that if you're looking toward bright lights, they're going to dim down a little bit so that they don't wash out.

And then if you just turn your head and look toward a darker area, it may take just a quick fraction of a second for the goggles to see that, react to that, and then turn up the intensity of the amplification of those night vision goggles. And, again, the field of view is 40 degrees. So you have to consciously focus on scanning, on moving your head to maintain that awareness of the airspace around you.

COOPER: And Black Hawks, don't they have -- I'm not sure if it's called transponders. Don't they have equipment that gives warning about other aircraft? And I think it can be turned on or off, or on some missions it might not be on, but is that potentially something that might not have been on?

EVANS: So, we just heard the airline pilot talk about the system called TCAS, Terminal Collision Avoidance System. TCAS is a piece of equipment that's mounted on typically your airliners. And, yes, it can interact with the transponders that are on Black Hawk helicopters. But as we just heard, that system is disabled once you get below certain altitudes for the airliners.

And so it's entirely possible that all of the equipment was functioning normally, but because of the low altitudes here, even though those systems were interacting with each other, they might not have given an advisory to the airline pilots of a potential collision. But, yes, Black Hawks do have a transponder. And typically is equipped with mode C. So, that's that altitude readout.

COOPER: We heard air traffic controller talking to the helicopter pilot. Are military aircraft exempt from FAA or air traffic control rules, or how did that -- how does that work?

EVAN: No. So, when you're a military aircraft and you're operating in the national airspace, you have to comply with national airspace standards. And so you're going to be on a frequency, particularly in Class B airspace like is around Reagan National Airport. You're going to be talking to air traffic control. They're going to be talking back to you. You're not actually allowed to even enter the airspace until you have that positive communication with air traffic control.

COOPER: Congressman Gabe Evans, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Abby?

PHILLIP: Thank you, Anderson.

Next, recovery efforts are over for the night with officials saying the shallow river water is making everything incredibly difficult to recover those bodies that are still underwater. We're going to speak to a rescue diver who can explain all the perils that they face.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:25:00]

PHILLIP: We're back with more on this deadly collision between an American Airlines plane and a Blackhawk helicopter. Recovery teams tonight are bringing a crane into the crash site to help reach some of the victims that are still in the Potomac River.

For more on the recovery efforts, I want to bring in a rescue trainer and diver, Butch Hendrick. He is also the president and founder of Lifeguard Systems. Butch, thank you very much for being with us.

There are still several victims that have yet to be recovered from the river. What are the biggest challenges that the divers will face in this recovery effort? And do you have a sense of how deep this water is that they have to traverse in order to get to them?

[22:30:03]

BUTCH HENDRICK, RESCUE DIVER & TRAINER: Well, the water depth is actually pretty shallow. They're only in a few feet of water, the fuselage. But the mud becomes an intense problem. The severe lack of visibility means that they are going through an aircraft in Braille. And while we're going through an aircraft fuselage, it is torn apart.

So every foot, every six inches that you move, there's a potential of another snag, another -- some potential injury for the divers. So they have to be very careful in there inside of that aircraft. We also don't know what type of contamination there could be in there from fuel and other things from that bottom, from the mud in the Potomac.

So, as they still go in, potentially anything that's in their way has to be removed. So, if I come into your suitcases, if I just move them to the side, attempting to try my way to a human that's still in their seat, when I get ready to leave the aircraft, that's still in my way. I put it right back in my own exit path.

So, everything they're coming in contact with that's removable needs to come out so the divers can have a safe exit.

PHILLIP: Yes. So, you mentioned it briefly there, but this collision happened upon landing. So most, if not all, the passengers would have been strapped into their seats with their seat belts on. How are divers approaching a recovery process under that -- under those circumstances?

HENDRICK: Well, they're going to be assuming that the passengers had their seat belts fastened and that they were fastened securely. But on that kind of an impact, they still could have been ejected out of those seats. They don't have shoulder straps like your vehicle has. So, it's a waist strap.

Depending on what they were doing at the moment, they weren't prepared for a collision. So even though the pilot said, I'm sure you fly, how often do people not, or they leave them on loosely.

PHILLIP: Yes.

HENDRICK: So, the bodies do not necessarily have to still be in the seats.

PHILLIP: And how would this process of recovery differ from the rescue aspect of this that would have happened, earlier in the evening yesterday, as we were on the air, when perhaps they thought that there could be survivors, how are those processes?

HENDRICK: Really the real process is what we look at as risk benefit. During a rescue procedure, while we still believe I could possibly save someone, very often our techniques could be a little bit unsafe for our operators, for our rescuers. I say unsafe meaning we're attempting to save lives, we're not going to be moving slow, we're moving quickly, lots of fast decisions are being made.

Once it's turned into a recovery operation, all of the techniques, all of the diving pieces and all the safety are still in place. However, we're just going to move a little slower and make sure that we have more safety procedures in place because of what we refer to as risk benefit.

PHILLIP: Yes. Well, this is still an arduous process for these divers and for these rescue personnel and first responders. They're working around the clock to try to recover as many of these individuals tragically lost.

Butch Hendrick, thank you very much for joining us and for providing that information.

Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Abby, thanks very much. Now Fairfax County public schools in Virginia have confirmed that three of their students and six parents have died in this collision. Two of the parents were current or former staff members.

Joining me now is Dr. Michelle Reid, the superintendent of Fairfax County Public Schools.

Sorry that you're here in these circumstances. Obviously, you're not -- the names of the students were not saying and not releasing or the parents. But talk about what impact this has had on your school system.

MICHELLE REID, SUPERINTENDENT, FAIRFAX COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS: Yes, thank you. First and foremost, on behalf of the entire Fairfax County Public School community, I want to share my heartfelt and deep condolences to all the families and loved ones enduring this tragedy.

It's been an unspeakably difficult day today. This has been heartbreaking across the school division as we've learned more and more. And I had an opportunity to meet with all 200 of our principals this morning and just preparing for the impact because we know what happens to one in our community happens to all and it's just so difficult.

COOPER: What do you say, I mean, as an educator, what do you say to kids? I mean, obviously it depends on the age range, but these are hard conversations.

[22:34:58]

REID: They are hard conversations, but I think one of the most important things we know about hard conversations is we have to stay in them and be present with our children, with each other, with our families, because the only way through this is together.

It was interesting, I've talked to Stephen Colbert, whose father died in a plane crash along with his twin brothers when Stephen was 10, and that moment obviously changed his life. There was a before, there was Stephen Colbert before and a Stephen Colbert after.

I think about the families who have lost their loved ones, their lives will never be the same.

REID: That's right, and in some cases, it's been the whole family. And I think being here with you on site is, really takes my breath away. It makes it even more real and I just --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: It's very strange. I mean, you know what's in the water, you know what these crews, that you see the blue lights, the boats, and yet there's, you know, people going about their lives, planes taking off. It's a very strange dichotomy.

REID: It is surreal in some ways. And as I mentioned earlier, it's hard in some ways to speak about what's so unspeakable.

COOPER: Yes. What -- do -- will, in schools, will there be, I don't know, do you speak, is there a public address about it? Is it something people, teachers, wait till students come forward and ask them about, or?

REID: So we really take a lot of pride in our community that we know our students well and our staff, our teachers, especially our principals and counselors, have been spending all day today working with students who have been affected and our staff because our staff, several staff members, also perished in this aviation disaster.

COOPER: Well, I so appreciate you being with us and I'm so sorry for --

REID: Thanks again. Thank you. COOPER: -- all you and the school community just going through. Abby?

PHILLIP: Anderson, thank you. Coming up next, as loved ones of passengers, they're still waiting for this confirmation about what happened to their relatives and whether they recovered from the water. President Trump is already casting blame without evidence. He's baselessly blaming DEI and Democrats, even though his actions are raising serious questions as well. We'll discuss that.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: This morning, as first responders were still frantically searching for the bodies in the icy waters of the Potomac, a sitting congressman rushed to television to assign blame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ANDY OGLES (R), TENNESSEE: I think you have to look at this with eyes wide open, see what happened. You know, human error, was it some sort of equipment failure? Did DEI play a role in this type of thing?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, for the next few hours, he received a mountain of backlash. But, believe it or not, that remark was minor compared to what the president of the United States said just hours later when he made DEI the centerpiece of his message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I put safety first. Obama, Biden, and the Democrats put policy first. The FAA's diversity push includes focus on hiring people with severe intellectual and psychiatric disabilities. That is amazing.

A group within the FAA, another story, determined that the workforce was too white, that they had concerted efforts to get the administration to change that and to change it immediately. This was in the Obama administration, but they actually came out with a directive, too white. And we want the people that are competent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The blame spectacle could be to take attention away from some of the very serious questions his administration is now facing, even if it's just 10 days into his administration.

First, why did Trump wait to name an acting FAA administrator until now? The last one resigned before Trump took office after Elon Musk said he should because the two clashed over SpaceX oversight. And second, why did Trump fire the heads of the Transportation Security Administration and the Coast Guard last week without a plan in place to replace them? He also fired members of the Aviation Security Advisory Committee. That's a group that's been around since the 1980s. And third, air traffic controllers are allowed to resign and accept that buyout that Trump is offering to millions of federal workers, again, without a plan to replace them.

Joining us at the table is Kara Swisher, Ana Navarro, and aviation analyst Justin Green.

Ana, this press conference was as many things with Trump, shocking but not surprising. It's in a way a predictable response, but I guess the surprising part was how quickly it came. I mean, the bodies are still in the water, the families are still grieving. We don't know what caused this. I mean, I think we could hazard to guess it's probably not DEI.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, I think there were some people after this election that thought, for some reason, I'm not sure why, but I know people who thought that Trump had changed and that for some reason this would be different and that we didn't know what we were going to be facing.

And this brought back to me what Maya Angelou told us, right? When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time. And today was a wake-up call for all those people that thought Trump was somehow going to change, that he is the same, the same exact person that he was.

[22:44:51]

This press conference was, struck me for just how callous it was, how callous is it with the families and loved ones of those victims still in the water to be without a shred of evidence throwing out theories irresponsibly, like if it was spaghetti to a wall.

And also that the irresponsibility of being the commander in chief and using the presidential bully pulpit to spread these conspiracy theories without evidence. And just as disgusting is the idea that he's commander in chief and he's blaming the helicopter pilots and that he's got a DOD secretary.

You see this is something he couldn't have done if Jim Mattis was Secretary of Defense. Because Jim Mattis would have gone on that podium and would have corrected him and would have pushed back. But now he's got these complicit secretaries in that cabinet that just clap and smile and nod along with every insane thing that comes out of his mouth.

PHILLIP: He assigned blame to the helicopter pilots, then also at the same time said it was the fault of DEI. The helicopter pilots are dead. Their families are grieving. That's the other part of this that I think was just astonishing.

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, it was. You know, a lot of it is, it looks like he had research done by one of the hallucinogenic A.I. bots or something like that because it just wasn't accurate. And I think the problem is right now there's so much information available everywhere that people pull from stuff that isn't accurate.

And what has to happen is a normal thing, an investigation where all the facts come out and that should be the only thing we should focus in on. And unfortunately, he has a bully pulpit, so he can do this.

But to me, you just need to know exactly what happened. We have black boxes. We have actual evidence that will show this. And using this is probably a distractionary thing, disgusting as it may be. He's got these hearings going on for his cabinet picks. It takes away attention.

And I think one of the things, again, is this same flooding the zone with all kinds of information.

NAVARRO: And also reinforces his policy objective of getting rid of all DEI.

(CROSSTALK)

SWISHER: Certainly, but he's doing it anyway.

NAVARRO: Remember -- remember when the California fires happened? What was the first thing the right wing said?

PHILLIP: Yes.

NAVARRO: Blaming the fires on DEI.

SWISHER: It's in --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: This is going to be a repetitive piece.

SWISHER: Right.

PHILLIP: It's incredibly convenient and lazy as well.

SWISHER: And you know, if there's like trans fats are going to be blamed on DEI, and trans people are going to be blamed on trans fats. You can see it going on and on and on.

NAVARRO: Right.

SWISHER: And so, it's a narrative that they'll use every time there's something that happens.

PHILLIP: Justin, how does this hit the families you think? Just all of this.

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Well, you know as you know I'm a lawyer representing families and this is a very, very difficult time for them. It's going to go on for a very long time because the answers that they want like what happened to their loved ones it's going to take months and months before they get those answers. So, you know, I can't speak to how this affects them. I do -- you

know, one of the things that I thought was kind of positive was the Secretary of Transportation Duffy saying, look, we're taking responsibility for this, which is unusual.

You know, from a lawyer's perspective, Trump blaming the military, who he represents, and ultimately is almost an admission that the government is at fault is unusual.

PHILLIP: Yes.

GREEN: But I think it's kind of refreshing to see Duffy saying, look, we're going to make sure the mistakes that happen don't happen again. Now the question is whether they're going to live up to those words.

PHILLIP: If they are, just out of curiosity, you know, Trump is, as we've been discussing, blaming DEI, just writ large. He's saying this is his hunch. Common sense tells him that that's the responsibility.

He's specifically blaming this screen grab on the FAA website, talking about how they had an initiative to hire people with disabilities. And then he highlights that by suggesting that they were recruiting people who couldn't see and who, you know, had intellectual disabilities.

What he's referring to there is actually just a government definition of disabilities that includes a lot of different things. But, I mean, I wonder, when he says that, does that try to deflect away from a certain kind of responsibility? Does that put more liability, perhaps, on individuals who are working in these roles at the FAA in air traffic control?

GREEN: No. I mean, as a plaintiff's lawyer, if that's what the government did and these people made mistakes, that's great for the families because, you know, the government is going to ultimately be responsible for it.

But as an aviation -- as you know, before I was a lawyer, I was a pilot and I was an aviation safety officer, went through training school. And ultimately, you're looking at the facts.

You know, I don't know if you guys remember but Dragnet back in the day they had just the facts, ma'am.

PHILLIP: Yes.

[22:49:57]

GREEN: Right now, the facts are, there's no facts suggesting that DEI had anything to do with this accident. So, you know, right now we're 24 hours into this. Let's let the facts come out and let's follow the facts.

PHILLIP: Yes.

SWISHER: The other part is these things have been in place for a long time because of the real problem, which is we don't have enough air traffic controllers and it's because of COVID, all kinds of reasons.

It's incredibly stringent training and one of -- this also happened during the Trump administration. They were trying to find programs.

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, this was on the website when he was president.

SWISHER: Correct. But don't let the facts get in the way of a bad story.

PHILLIP: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: When you say that it's incredible --

GREEN: Well this goes back to Reagan firing off the air traffic controller.

SWISHER: Absolutely, it goes back to Reagan.

NAVARRO: But when you say, you know, very stringent training and requirements to be an air traffic controller --

(CROSSTALK)

SWISHER: We don't have enough. We don't have enough.

NAVARRO: -- or to be a pilot.

SWISHER: Right.

NAVARRO: And they are the same requirements and training, whether it's a black pilot or a Latino pilot or a white pilot or a female pilot or a white man pilot. The requirements and training do not change.

PHILLIP: Exactly.

NAVARRO: And people need to understand that. I think to myself, how demoralizing it's got to be for air traffic controllers. How demoralizing it's got to be for anybody working in that space to hear the President of the United States say these things.

PHILLIP: And to have him suggest, I mean, look, if you are a woman, if you're a black person, if you're a Hispanic person, working in those roles, basically the president just said you're suspect.

NAVARRO: Right.

PHILLIP: And that you're, just by definition of who you are, likely to not be doing your job well, that's incredible that is being said from the White House.

NAVARRO: And the other thing, Abby, that drove me crazy, I'm sorry, is in a press conference later in the day, when he press -- when he was answering questions, he was asked if he would go to the site. And very flippantly, he said, what does that mean? It's water. You want me to go swimming there?

This is basically outside his door is where this happened. It wouldn't take much effort for him to show up and lay a wreath on behalf of a nation in grief and shock right now. One of the roles of the president of the United States is consoler-in-chief, to console us in our moments of grief.

And he is, frankly, because of his lack of human empathy absolutely incapable of showing that kind of care.

SWISHER: Here's the thing, we are talking about that. We're not talking about the facts, we're not talking about what happened here, we're not talking about the lack of air traffic controllers. Our country is actually quite safe from air safety point of view.

It's been, I mean, more people obviously die in car accidents, everybody knows that. It's been a very safe period of time for us.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Kara, tell us about Elon Musk's role in --

SWISHER: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- the ousting of the FAA administrator. This happened actually even before Trump has sworn in.

SWISHER: Yes, he's been wrangling with it.

PHILLIP: And it has to do with shocker his private business.

PHILLIP: Yes.

SWISHER: Base with Tesla, Teslas had a series of problems with its cars and there's been a series of Investigations lawsuits, et cetera, et cetera. And so, he doesn't like any strictures He doesn't like any regulations and he, you know, he blamed the government during COVID about his factor.

You know, he's always doing that and trying to get the government off his back even though it's helped them quite a bit. And so, he was wrangling with people who were worried about some debris in during with his rockets or with the cars or whatever, and so that was without fight over stuff he was --

NAVARRO: You mean like the rocket that just exploded over Turks and Caicos and shower debris all over.

SWISHER: Exactly. So, he's been wrangling with them and so he wants to get rid of people he perceives in his way. And you know, look, it's doing the same thing with firing, offering these packages which seem nuts.

PHILLIP: The president is obviously entitled to make personnel changes, but certain roles like this there should be replacements in place. And I think this is an incredibly telling moment for why that is so, so important.

Everyone, thank you all for joining us.

Justin -- just in, we are seeing the very first pictures of the black box that was recovered from the plane tonight. You see it there. We'll be back in a moment.

[22:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Among the victims of this tragedy were several young figure skaters returning with their coaches and parents from the U.S. Figure Skating Championships and training camp in Kansas.

Earlier tonight I spoke with two of the skaters who competed at that tournament and won the gold medal with their friends.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP: Alisa, Spencer Lane and Gina Han, they were two of the skaters in your club. Two young promising skaters. Tell us about them. Tell us what they were like.

ALISA EFIMOVA, TEAM USA PARIS SKATER: They were very energetic kids that just were two sunshines at the rink. I would see them every day. Every morning, I entered the rink putting their skates on and just seeing their smiles, just hearing their hello would make me smile and that's how every day started. And the same with their parents. They were there for them every day. And they were supporting us as well.

PHILLIP: So, Misha, tell us about the two coaches who were lost. Evgenia Shishkova and Vadim Naumov, they are, in their own right, legendary skaters. What does that loss mean to your community?

[22:59:58]

MISHA MITROFANOV, TEAM USA PARIS SKATER: We lost parents. They were like parents to the rink. Their students were like their kids. They devoted their lives to their sport -- to this sport. They absolutely loved this sport. And to lose them is like losing your parents, that's the best way to put it.

They were unbelievable skaters, unbelievable coaches. And nothing but excellency was expected from them and that's what they gave.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP: And you can watch more of our interview on the Newsnight page at cnn.com.

Thank you very much for watching Newsnight. CNN's coverage continues with Laura Coates right now.