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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Musk And Mystery Team Intensify Dismantling Of Government; CIA Sent Names Of Recent Hires in Unclassified Email To White House; Nationwide Protests Against Trump And Musk Government Actions; "NewsNight" Panelists Discuss The Competency Of Trump Picks; Republicans Try To Figure Out Which Side of the Gaza Plan They're On. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 05, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, judge, jury, and executioner. The White House says Elon Musk will police himself as he slices and dices his way through the federal bureaucracy.
Plus, protests without a plan. Democrats run back the resistance playbook. But is there a better strategy for battling Trump?
Also, expansion pact, Donald Trump revises the meaning of America first.
And not sticking to sports, an ESPN host goes off on Donald Trump and the president's attacks on DEI.
Live at the table, Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings. Arthur Aidala, Cari Champion, and Alyssa Farah Griffin.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. Who? What? I don't know. Tonight, the federal government sounds a lot like that famous Abbott and Costello skit. When you ask them questions about Elon Musk, no one can tell you who is watching Musk or what he is doing.
What we do know, though, through reporting is that DOGE has access to the Treasury Department's payment systems. DOGE has access to Medicare and Medicaid payments. DOGE led the shutdown of USAID. But ask the White House or anyone inside the government what Musk and DOGE are actually doing and the most frequent refrain is, I don't know.
In court, the Trump Justice Department put that on the record. They are saying they are clueless about what Musk is doing with government records, quote, I don't know if I can say nothing has been done. Now, Congress isn't keeping tabs on Musk. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee tried to issue a subpoena, but the Republicans blocked it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D-VA): I move that the committee subpoena Elon Musk to come before it as a witness at the earliest possible moment.
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): There's been a motion and second. The motion is not debatable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, why don't we want to debate? Elon Musk coming in and talking to us about his work and how he's enriched himself?
REP. MELANIE STANSBURY (D-NM): Mr. Chairman, I think it's outrageous that this committee will not even entertain a motion.
COMER: No. You state your -- that's not a point of order. You know,
(CROSSTALKS)
STANSBURY: And you'll not even entertain a motion to bring him --
(CROSSTALKS)
COMER: This committee is -- are in favor of tabling, signify --
STANSBURY: yes, let's have order in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Great job, guys. The White House says that they are trusting, Musk himself, to stick to the law and police himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president was already asked and answered this question this week, and he said, if Elon Musk comes across a conflict of interest with the contracts and the funding that Doge is overseeing, that Elon will excuse himself from those contracts. And he has, again, abided by all applicable laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Donte Mills. He's a civil and criminal attorney and a law professor at Temple University.
Donte, Congress is completely impotent. We know that. They will not do anything to even ask the right questions. But is what's happening right now legal?
DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY: It's not illegal, but it's not wise. And the reason is you have a vetting process that's supposed to happen. And the purpose is to make sure that the people who have access to the information can be trusted. I don't know why Elon Musk is being trusted so much to police himself. Just because you have money doesn't mean you can't do anything that's bad for our country.
So, there has to be some kind of vetting process that happens. I don't know if we can say he should -- that it's illegal because he's acting as an adviser, right? He's not in official federal capacity or he doesn't have a position. So, he's an adviser.
PHILLIP: He's a special government employee, which is sort of almost like a little bit of a loophole.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a gray area.
PHILLIP: But it's one of those things that it's going to get thing by thing tested one by one. It's going to be a very slow process to find out what is happening and whether any of it actually passes legal muster. Because there are rules that Congress has set actually at some point about how the government works, about who's supposed to have access to what, and about what the roles of federal employees are.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, I would love someone to come to my law firm and look at where the waste is and how it could function more smoothly.
[22:05:02]
And as a law firm, you're in a little bit of a unique position. But when you're involved with the Treasury Department, you're also in a unique position.
I got to be honest with you, Abby, if I had an Elon Musk-type come into my little law firm, I would have them sign some kind of a nondisclosure form, a confidentiality form. It's just good practice. I'm not saying he would have to go through, you know, Senate clearance, but there's got to be some degree of a checks and balances.
I don't buy the fact that he's looking to enrich himself. The guy's worth half a trillion dollars. I mean, at some point, every human being is saturated. So, I don't he's --
PHILLIP: But there are definitely conflicts of interest. I mean, that's not debatable. He has government contracts, he has competitors who have government contracts, who he wants to box out. I mean, the conflicts are there.
GRIFFIN: Well, we're in a very legally gray area. A lot of this comes down to, as you said, do the enforcement mechanisms, Congress, for example, or the courts actually have the ability to step in, and do they need to, you know, like the power of the purse being in Congress, many of these programs that are being slashed and that there hasn't actually that have been appropriated by Congress.
If nobody's enforcing and stepping up to challenge that, I don't know that's actually going to matter. And the courts, we've seen them step in briefly with the federal aid freeze, but I don't suspect that they're going to go line items through by through everything that he's come in and cut or decided to streamline. And there is something to there, there's wisdom in the Trump administration by the lack of transparency around it. I don't know that people would know where to begin if they're trying to be outside watchdogs on what is being cut.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, not illegal, not illegal. You don't like the politics of it. I'll give you the other side. This is radical transparency on these USAID grants and other parts of the government that typically operate in an opaque fashion.
And plenty of law degrees here, I'll give you the political view. The American people elected Donald Trump because they thought he was going to be a sledgehammer against this government and against the out of control bureaucracy and Elon Musk is the instrument of the destruction. And there is nothing bad about the politics of this right now, about going through the government and reporting to the American people. Did you know your money's going here? Did you know your money's going there? It's all upside for Trump.
MILLS: (INAUDIBLE) approach where he shouldn't even be questioned about --
JENNINGS: He's questioned by his boss.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Is he? Is he? They don't even know what he's doing. That's the problem.
JENNINGS: Trump said he would have authorization to do what he needed to do.
PHILLIP: Here's what The New York Times is reporting. One Trump official was not authorized speak publicly said, Mr. Musk was widely seen as operating with a level of autonomy that almost no one can control. There's no one that you can --
ALLISON: Yes, right. Nor should you, nor should you.
I think what is -- I hear you, transparency, Donald Trump won the election, I can acknowledge that. What I think people are not connecting the dots on is the trickledown effect of -- you all love trickle down, right -- of how this happens. You close a government agency. People lose their jobs. That impacts their employment, whether they can feed themselves.
That agency funds non profits abroad but also domestic. Those people can't then do their job. That affects people in those states, red states and blue states. The people that those nonprofits help, that I don't think is what the American people actually signed up for.
And I think that it's early. It's still, what are we, 15 days in? It's three weeks in. And so I don't think the impact of what Elon Musk is doing is being directly felt by the American people. But give it six weeks yet -- PHILLIP: It's starting to be. I mean, there was a report out of Virginia community health centers were shutting down because their funding stopped. No one can seem to explain why that is, but it's because basically Elon Musk has said for a wide swath of the government, just turn the whole thing off.
GRIFFIN: I think that Scott is right on the politics in this moment, but I would completely disagree that there's transparency. The White House should come out and simply list these are the programs that are being slashed. This is the amount, this is what they serve, this is why they're duplicative, or unnecessary, or waste, and fraudulent, and abusive. They're not showing us that. So, I mean, I have friends who've been laid off in USAID in India. They don't know why, they don't know if their mission's being shuttered or if it's being streamlined and folded into the State Department.
These are things I think it would really benefit the Trump White House. Put out some fact sheets, explain what you're doing.
ALLISON: They don't want to though.
GRIFFIN: Because it generally -- well, it's generally popular to shrink government.
ALLISON: They don't want to. That's why they froze -- that's why they did the federal freezing of funds the way they did, is because Bannon said this from the beginning, this is a strategy. This is their political strategy.
MILLS: But they have the right to have that strategy. You're getting a lot of kudos today. We agree with you on the policy. Trump has the right to set his policy and decide what's important where he wants to slash. But to have somebody just running around the government that hasn't been vetted, hasn't went through any clearance or anything like that and they have access to everyone's information to things they shouldn't have access to, there has to be some oversight of Elon Musk.
PHILLIP: One of the other things we're learning this week, this is according to The New York Times, the CIA sent the White House an unclassified email with the names of some employees.
[22:10:03]
This sounds mundane, I guess, but it's the CIA. And some of those employees are doing sensitive jobs. Some of those employees are targeted by foreign governments. Why?
JENNINGS: I don't know. I mean, I hope they're following all the safety and security protocols for the people that are in the clandestine service.
Look, I think at some juncture, though, you all have to realize that nobody in the United States feels like anybody could give them a full accounting of where all this money goes. We're $30-something trillion dollars in debt. We spend more money than we bring in. This has been going on and on for years. Both parties say they're going to do something about it, and then we meet about it, and we have committees, and we fight about it, and we have elections, and no one ever does anything.
And then Trump shows up and unleashes Elon Musk on the federal government. And finally people are like, well, maybe if we break a few eggs, we might turn up a few omelets here. And I just think the politics of this are going to give them a lot of leash in Washington because they're going to end up turning over things that everyone's going to agree, oh, yes, that was really stupid.
ALLISON: But Elon Musk also doesn't know where those trillion dollars, like that's the thing, is like if you are --
AIDALA: He's supposed to be finding out, right? Isn't that his job? Well, how do we know what he's doing two weeks in? And, by the way, we don't have a deja vu. Didn't we do the Jared Kushner eight years ago? Wasn't he in the Oval Office? Wasn't he --
PHILLIP: Yes, but he wasn't doing anything like this.
GRIFFIN: But Jared wasn't doing anything like this.
PHILLIP: He doesn't have to do anything like this.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: Listen, I'm a Jared fan, but he was sitting in the White House next to the president of the United States. He was in the thick of it with no clearance whatsoever, at least initially,
GRIFFIN: But keep in mind, right now, we're talking about USAID, which we all care about. The average American doesn't know what it is, doesn't care what the mission is, whether they should or shouldn't. When this becomes the Department of Education or Health and Human Services, and it could impact good services and day-to-day things Americans care about, then they're going to want more of an accounting of what is being slashed and why.
MILLS: But why wait and then you get to the point where it's too late, right? The cat's already out of the bag. This information is out. People are seeing it. That's not supposed to. So, why wait?
ALLISON: I don't know. Elon Musk, don't care to meet Elon Musk, but I think --
AIDALA: He's a pretty cool cat.
ALLISON: Well, great. Good.
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: He knows more about me than I know about him at this point.
But I think the question of the conflict of interest, conflict of interest, I would agree. I would have somebody sign an NDA or something. But it doesn't just -- it's not right now. It's the future also, to your point, Abby. It's like knowing the information so that then you extract yourself so it can benefit you. He has all the information. He can --
AIDALA: But you can say that about every politician who does that and goes out and becomes a lobbyist.
ALLISON: I would say that's wrong, that's what I'm saying.
GRIFFIN: We all sign ethics papers, we all get security clearances, we do extensive FBI background checks. He didn't do what standard government does.
AIDALA: But what happens after you leave?
PHILLIP: The other thing is --
AIDALA: After you leave, you go sign up for one of these big lobby firms and make millions.
GRFFIN: Usually also, when you sign a cooling off agreement.
PHILLIP: (INAUDIBLE) wants Elon Musk to single handedly be responsible for upgrading the aviation system, as Secretary Duffy said.
JENNINGS: Why not?
GRIFFIN: I don't know if I hate that, to be honest.
JENNINGS: I mean, he's this man launching rockets into space, of course. I mean, my presumption is that it needs serious upgrades. I've heard that in numerous quarters since this horrific crash, number one. Number two, this man is shooting rockets into space and then bringing them back down and grabbing them with arms. Of course, he knows something.
MILLS: He's a smart guy. He knows what he's doing.
PHILLIP: There's no question about that. But I do think that the idea that you just, you take a problem that the government has, and your cheat code is just tell Elon to fix it as opposed to actually fixing it.
JENNINGS: Well, how do you know he's not going to actually fix it?
PHILLIP: No. I'm I'm saying that the secretary of transportation should say we need to fix this problem, figure it out. He's like, okay, let me call Elon. That's just --
(CROSSTALKS)
MILLS: You're skirting around, you're going around the process. I'm okay -- listen, Donald Trump won the election. In 2020, the Republicans were saying Joe Biden didn't win. In 2024, the Democrats are acting like Trump didn't win. They're saying he should be doing how things how we do them. I don't think that's right. I think Trump has the right to try things his way. But you can't skirt certain rules and procedures like a vetting process.
ALLISON: I do think Democrats --
MILLS: What puts him above --
ALLISON: I think Democrats have a right to say, don't do it. That's why we're in a democracy.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: And we will talk a little bit more about the Democrats and how they're handling this a little bit later in the show. But, yes, I mean if they weren't complaining about it, I don't know what kind of opposition --
ALLISON: I just think it's the carelessness of it.
JENNINGS: You guys know that Joe Biden also appointed people to do stuff in the government who weren't elected, right? You were one. I mean, there are people who get -- every president appointed people to do stuff. They do stuff.
PHILLIP: All right. Donte Mills, thank you very much for joining us on that one. Everyone else stick around.
Coming up next, does the new resistance know what they're doing? Protests have erupted nationwide against Musk and Trump. And Democrats barge into the speaker's office in Capitol Hill. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
Plus, the White House is trying to walk back Trump's dreams of seizing Gaza, but there are some issues with that.
[22:15:04]
We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, the streets are alive with the sound of protest. Nationwide marchers demonstrated against President Trump, but the message was about everything, everywhere. That's happened in the first two weeks of this administration. Democrats clearly have tactics in search of a strategy. And the latest incident is a pair of Democratic lawmakers forcing their way into the Republican speaker's office in Washington.
Cari Champion is with us now. It is a little bit hard to tell, I'll give this one to Ashley, what exactly the strategy is.
[22:20:03]
I hear a lot of different versions of the strategy, but what is the thing?
ALLISON: There's not going to be one thing. That's the reality. And it's not going to look like 2017 nor should it. We're not the same country. It's not the same type of laws.
PHILLIP: So, protests in the streets is not --
ALLISON: It might happen. It might happen at one point when there is such overreach. I mean, he's already done a lot of overreaching right now. But when something happens, where people just say enough is enough, you're going to see litigation. Litigation is already happening. You're going to see people stand up new organizations that have different tactics around media and whatnot. You're going to see protests in the streets. I think you're going to see work in blue states and in red states around like in the elections next year.
It's not going to look like what we saw where millions of people in the first week go to the Capitol and protest, and I'm okay with that.
I think the other thing though is that this is a moment for Democrats to find the people that are truly being impacted by the policies of Donald Trump and give them Voice give voice to the working class that we just talked about who are going to be impacted. Waffle House just increased the price of each egg you buy by $0.50. The last I checked, I was told --
JENNINGS: Why? Why? Do you know why they did?
ALLISON: Yes, because they killed a bunch of -- yes, bird flu.
JENNINGS: I'm just being honest.
AIDALA: Scott knows a lot about chickens, apparently. We heard about that in the break, so I wouldn't challenge him on that front.
ALLISON: But eggs haven't gone down.
PHILLIP: To your point, the impact on people, let me just read this from Ron Fournier, Smart Voice. He talks about the risks for Democrats. He says, overheated or faux outrage in defense of unpopular institutions is out of step with these times. Even for those voters repelled by Trump's machinations, there's often something appealing in the change he espouses, if not with popular policy, like sealing the U.S. border, often with the general direction of disruption, Democrats would be wiser to position themselves as reformers.
JENNINGS: This is -- he's describing what is currently the dumbest strategy in politics, which is Democrats taking the 20 percent side of every 80-20 issue in America. USAID, people want this pared down. They want to streamline. They want to know where the money is going, Democrats have a meltdown. Today, Donald Trump signs executive order on keeping boys out of girls' sports, Democrats take the 20 side of that issue as well.
All these issues, this is like Trump's superpower, finding a bunch of 80-20 issues, getting on the 80, and everybody who's sort of reflexively against him gets on the 20. And now the Democratic Party has like a 31 percent approval rating. This is why.
PHILLIP: I don't agree with you on the 80-20 of USAID, but I get the point that you're making.
GRIFFIN: Well, Democrats also need to not make their whole personality hating Donald Trump. Like people have a set position of Donald Trump. At this point, you're not really -- that cannot be your leading effort. But they also, I feel like, are constantly running and messaging on what they want voters to care about, not what voters actually care about. So, whether it's democracy, whether it's, to some degree, reproductive rights, that just was not the defining issue of this election, rather than, oh, it's pocketbook issues, it's the cost of living, it's border security.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's not pocketbook issues. I don't want to interrupt you. I thought it was about eggs. We're not talking about it anymore. It's not about -- it was never about eggs. It was about race. And if we're honest, if I see something, say something. We've been told that since we were kids, if you see something, say something. It's not about eggs.
GRIFFIN: It is.
CHAMPION: It's not about -- it's about making sure that there is white supremacy in this country. And if we're honest, we will say that it's about making sure, and we will make sure that people who -- DEI is really all these cold words. You used to use woke, I asked you to define what woke meant, you couldn't really define it.
JENNINGS: Oh, I did.
CHAMPION: Tell me what it means again.
JENNINGS: Woke ideology is taking extreme views of American culture and trying to tear down America from the inside out and go outside of our cultural norms and invade every corporation, university, and other institutions.
ALLISON: That's incorrect.
CHAMPION: Tell me -- that's incorrect. But what is DEI? Tell me again.
JENNINGS: DEI? Diversity, equity, and trying to guarantee outcomes instead of guarantee opportunity?
CHAMPION: Every single person in Trump's cabinet looks like DEI. I do want to take us off the road.
GRIFFIN: I was speaking. If I could just --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: And I think it's important for us to not get off the rails because --
JENNINGS: But she just said we're all white supremacists. We've got to address this, don't we? PHILLIP: We have actually a whole conversation on DEI coming up in the show, but to your point about what the Trump administration has been focused on, literally, everything that they have done has actually been about tearing down DEI. Elon Musk is literally searching for the code words, the key words, in the government, the spreadsheets, and deleting those items.
GRIFFIN: Can I just say one thing though? Demonizing a whole swath of voters and saying they voted because they're racist or misogynist, not because they're a pocketbook.
CHAMPION: I didn't say -- those are my words, yours, but go ahead.
GRIFFIN: Okay, but --
JENNINGS: You said it was about white supremacy.
CHAMPION: I said it was about white supremacy. I didn't say that all the voters were white supremacists. But it's not about eggs. She said it was about pocketbook issues. It's not about pocketbook issues.
GRIFFIN: You don't think people were at all motivated by the state of the economy?
CHAMPION: Of course they were, absolutely.
[22:25:00]
But, yes, and you're smart enough to know, yes and. Yes, they were upset about pocketbook issues.
JENNINGS: Are you?
CHAMPION: And they're also upset about what people are --
PHILLIP: I think, Cari, you're right that Trump has, to a degree, gone off course here in terms of what he ran on. He's not doing much of anything about prices right now. But Democrats are not really spending a lot of time on that issue.
AIDALA: Isn't that what the whole tariff thing is all about?
GRIFFIN: I don't even like Donald Trump but I could agree --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on, wait. Are you suggesting that threatening 25 percent tariffs is designed to bring prices down?
CHAMPION: Yes. How?
GRIFFIN: It is.
AIDALA: Listen --
JENNNINGS: Multiple things could be true here. AIDALA: Wait, yes --
CHAMPION: Wait. Now, multiple things can be true. Okay, great.
JENNINGS: I'll tell you what's not true, white supremacy.
AIDALA: Well, you started this segment talking about the Democrats' reaction. So, I would like to address that. That's how we started this whole thing. Here's what saddens me about both parties. Every person who they have put up, like Pam Bondi, who, by all accounts, is a qualified lawyer, a qualified prosecutor, why did every Democrat, I believe except Fetterman, vote against her?
It's this knee jerk reaction. Anything Trump says, we got to vote against. Justice Antonin Scalia, who was clearly a conservative, was approved 98 to nothing. Every Democrat, including Ted Kennedy, voted for him. We've now got to this part, this point in our country, which is sad, that, okay, if Trump is going to do this, we're going to vote against it. If Biden is going to do this, we're going to vote against it. It's just knee jerk, horrible politics, not thinking of the people, thinking of the party.
PHILLIP: But before you tried to tell me that tariffs were about bringing prices down, my point was, Democrats actually have an opportunity to talk about things that matter to Americans, which is what Ashley was saying. They are a little confused about what they're supposed to be targeting.
JENNINGS: They do have an opportunity but were treated to sort of similar comments to what Cari made tonight about race, white supremacy, all of Trump's ideology and people and voters and everything, it's all about white supremacy. This was rejected in the election. Democrats ran, A, I mean, this was the animating thing of the Harris campaign and it was rejected. And I am constantly shocked at what you're not aware of, which is Donald Trump's performance --
CHAMPION: I'm constantly shocked at what you're not aware of.
JENNINGS: I don't know. I tend to be more right about it than you are. But the reality is he did better among minority voters than any Republican in a half a century. And you seem to be totally unaware of it.
GRIFFIN: Like, but it's also true, Trump spoke --
JENNINGS: But if you're going to come out and call half the country a white supremacist, I think you got to explain it.
CHAMPION: I did not call half the country about -- I didn't say the country, I said this was about white supremacy. Because what he ran on was making America great again, which is another cold word. You like to say, woke, you like to say the election was about white supremacy. But I'm saying what Trump was about was making sure he is making sure that he stays back.
GRIFFIN: It's not even a question that Trump stokes racial divide. CHAMPION: That is just a simple fact, that's not a question.
GRIFFIN: But there is reality that 75 million people voted for Donald Trump and my family, friends, people I love did not because racism. I'm going out to vote for racism. It was because the cost of living was too damn high. They had more money the first time he was in office. They were worried about the border. They screamed about it for four years.
CHAMPION: Alyssa, do you think that he's going to lower prices?
GRIFFIN: No, I didn't vote for him. I voted for Kamala Harris.
CHAMPION: Do you think that's what's --
PHILLIP: I'm going to hit pause on this conversation. We'll continue after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:59]
PHILLIP: Didn't quite expect the last conversation to go quite there, but here we are. It's a provocative moment for all of these questions. I wanted you to listen to something that ESPN host Ryan Clark said about Donald Trump and DEI. It's very similar to what we heard last segment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN CLARK, ESPN HOST: When Roger Goodell stands up, not necessarily against Trump's attack against DEI, but stands up and says that's separate from what we're doing, he doesn't have to look any further than Trump's cabinet.
You mean to tell me those are the most qualified people politically to do those jobs? Those are the most experienced people to do those jobs? President Trump is the exact reason you need diversity, equity and inclusion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A cabinet that has perhaps more Fox hosts than people who --
JENNINGS: You know what makes them qualified?
CHAMPION: Yes. No, don't do it. Let her finish.
PHILLIP: And I would just -- I would just ask, Scott, if race is not the issue, then why is DEI mentioned --
CHAMPION: Every five seconds.
PHILLIP: -- every single day as a solution to every single problem that faces this?
JENNINGS: Because of how pervasive it is.
PHILLIP: Is that completely true?
JENNINGS: And how hateful it is to an actual conservative ideological view.
PHILLIP: But do you think it is true that all of America's ails from the plane crash to whatever it is -- wildfires due to DEI for real?
JENNINGS: I think that if you believe in the fundamental principle of America which is that we guarantee everybody an equal chance, not an equal outcome but an equal chance then trying to go around that principle, conservatives don't believe in it.
CHAMPION: Yes.
JENNINGS: And most people who believe in America don't believe in it.
CHAMPION: I'd like to --
JENNINGS: Number one. Number two. The concept of not hiring the best person for the job in government or anywhere else has been repeatedly rejected by the American people, the Supreme Court, and everything else. And so, you get --
PHILLIP: What do you -- so, I guess what I'm saying is like, if that is the case, then people are questioning the actual qualifications of many people Donald Trump hired for jobs.
[22:35:06]
CHAMPION: Yeah.
PHILLIP: So, do you think that he actually --
JENNINGS: Why?
CHAMPION: Because Elon Musk doesn't even go here.
PHILLIP: Do you think that he --
CHAMPION: That's why.
PHILLIP: I think this is the question people are asking. This is the question that Ryan Clark just asked. Did Donald Trump, for health and human services, find the person with the best expertise to address those --
JENNINGS: This is not a -- this is not a--
PHILLIP: When it comes to the Department of Defense, did he find the person with the best expertise to address those issues or did he just find people who he liked?
JENNINGS: Political appointees have one qualification. They serve at the pledge of the president because the president believes that person's going to best carry out their agenda. That is the only qualification.
GRIFFIN: And to protect and defend the Constitution.
JENNINGS: And that is the only qualification for a political appointee.
ALLISON: Can I say --
PHILLIP: And competency doesn't matter?
JENNINGS: Of course -- of course they're competent. Of course he believes they're competent. If he didn't believe they were competent, he wouldn't have believed them.
CHAMPION: Scott, Scott, I am not being fair with that. You're not being fair with that response. She asked you a very simple question, yes or no. Look at the appointees. Do you believe DEI had anything to do with those appointees? Do you believe they were qualified? Do you think they would protect and defend the Constitution that represents all of the people of the United States of America?
AIDALA: I think Marco Rubio -- I think Marco Rubio will have --
JENNINGS: I think we all have literally no idea how the government works, is what I --
ALLISON: I do.
GRIFFIN: I do.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Just to be clear, a couple people at this table have served with the government.
JENNINGS: Yeah, me too.
PHILLIP: In the crudest form of president we're talking about.
ALLISON: I just want to say that I think the premise that DEI exists and therefore the people that got the opportunity, perhaps because of DEI, are not qualified is a flawed premise.
CHAMPION: Correct.
ALLISON: And I think that that is what is so frustrating about the argument around DEI. We know in this country, historically, and even today, there are still injustices in this country.
CHAMPION: Correct.
ALLISON: -- based on race, based on gender, based on ideology.
PHILLIP: Based on who your daddy played golf with.
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: OK, that happens every single day. We know that. ALLISON: And so, it's called --
AIDALA: It happens every single day all over the planet.
PHILLIP: That's what I'm saying.
AIDALA: The planet Earth, it is human nature.
PHILLIP: That's --
AIDALA: It is human, every single day. And we're the best at it. We're the best at trying to --
ALLISON: We know, Donald Trump's our president.
PHILLIP: Arthur, I guess that's exactly my point. I agree with you. I think that it is true that there have been preferences not for merit since the dawn of time.
CHAMPION: Yeah, sure.
PHILLIP: And that in this country right now the same people who are going after DEI, which is about giving opportunities to people who have been historically marginalized, are just as willing to hire their friends.
JENNINGS: Is that what equity means? Giving opportunity or guaranteeing opportunity?
CHAMPION: No, it's giving access.
JENNINGS: Because that's what equity means.
CHAMPION: Scott, it's giving access.
JENNINGS: There's a difference -- there's a difference between equality and equity.
CHAMPION: No, no, it's giving access, Scott.
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on. Cari, I just want to answer his question because I think this is super --
JENNINGS: Wouldn't talent and hard work give you access?
UNKNOWN: And beauty.
PHILLIP: I think this is incredibly important for you to understand and for everybody to understand at home, OK? This is I think where we go crossways on this issue. You just asked the question, is -- what does -- what does equity mean?
Does it mean equality or does it mean access to opportunities? And conservatives want to define it a particular way, but you have to acknowledge, I'm asking you to acknowledge, that people who -- who believe in DEI do not define it that way. They do not define it as equality.
UNKNOWN: Can I -- can I --
JENNINGS: I think they define it as trying to guarantee outcomes and I think they define it as trying to punish people they don't like politically, wrong race, wrong gender.
CHAMPION: Scott, that is not true.
GRIFFIN: Speaking from the middle of the country who's not hyper- partisan on this issue, I think that people generally think diversity is a virtue. It makes businesses better. It makes institutions better. But they also don't like when you have companies or organizations that are spending huge amounts of money to stand up DEI office.
As an example, Fairfax County Public Schools, $400,000 spent on a DEI office, the kids are not reading at the levels that they should. They're not advancing at the levels that they should. They, it's not the issue of diversity.
ALLISON: But were they doing that before the office was stood up?
GRIFFIN: Well, probably not.
ALLISON: So maybe implementing DEI might actually help people have a better education outcome.
GRIFFIN: Well, it's not an argument against DEI. It's how much -- how much of our resources are we actually putting to it.
CHAMPION: But that's not the -- that's not the way the conversation is being posed in America today. The conversation about DEI and woke and all of that sounds about marginalized black and brown people who already are threatened and are seen to be threatened in this community, in this society. And they're not getting the same opportunities.
It was the same thing with affirmative action. Went to UCLA, they got rid of affirmative action. Everyone said you got in because of affirmative action. When I graduated, affirmative action didn't take my test. Affirmative action didn't help me get to where I'm at today.
It gave me access that I didn't have based on the opportunity that I lacked because of the circumstances I was born into, which had nothing to do with me, but the country which we live in. And so the reality is that --
JENNINGS: Have you seen the test scores of UCLA Medical, by the way?
CHAMPION: My point being, Scott, is that everyone doesn't have the same access. People like to hire their friends. They like to hire the people that they like to be around.
JENNINGS: Do you think they like to hire the best people for the job?
GRIFFIN: But I also think around the idea of diversity. CHAMPION: No, Donald Trump hired all of his friends. I want to go
back to people that are in his cabinet right now. You know, you know, you are a smart man. I know you know this.
JENNINGS: Why don't you understand how political appointments work? I don't understand.
UNKNOWN: It's not about --
ALLISON: But this is -- can we just go beyond -- can we just go beyond the cabinet? Because yes, the president gets to pick whoever he wants and the Senate is now for the Republicans.
[22:40:03]
And I would have hoped that some of them would have had more profiles encouraged, but they didn't and they actually put people in that. You -- I do believe in your party. You have more qualified people who could be in that cabinet. I'd like to think that, but that's not what they chose. That's not what they chose. So go for it, OK? I think my, I, the, the issue in this country right now is we live in different realities.
CHAMPION: That's right.
ALLISON: I live in a reality where I know I do not have the same opportunity as you. I know I don't.
CHAMPION: And you know that, too.
ALLISON: And I know what, Scott?
CHAMPION: And you know that, too.
ALLISON: Let me just tell you about me.
JENNINGS: I'm going to let you finish, but I want to -- I want to answer this.
ALLISON: I'm not -- I'm not talking about how you feel. I'm talking about how I feel. Me, a black woman in this country.
AIDALA: OK. Not in this city.
ALLISON: And I will run. And if you want me to say it.
AIDALA: Look, I'm a New Yorker, not in this city.
ALLISON: I will run.
AIDALA: You cannot say that. You can't say that in this city.
ALLISON: I'm not talking about New York. I'm talking about Ashley Allison right now.
JENNINGS: Let her finish. ALLISON: I got a law degree, a master's and two bachelors. Probably
more education than all you all added up together at this table, right? And I have always been the least paid person on payroll at every institution I have worked in and it's not because --
AIDALA: Even in the White House?
ALLISON: Even in the White House.
AIDALA: Well, whose fault is that? I don't think you worked for George W or Trump.
ALLISON: Well, guess what happened when I was there? DEI.
PHILLIP: Scott.
CHAMPION: Go ahead, Scott.
PHILLIP: Look --
JENNINGS: You're my friend. I respect you tremendously. I think you're probably the smartest operative in the Democratic Party and they should listen to you more. That's number one. Number two, you and I share a comparable background. We're both from the Midwest.
ALLISON: Yes.
JENNINGS: We both come from middle class families, lower middle class families maybe. I actually think we share a lot of similarities in our journey. But I think you made it and you are the most respected voice often at every room or every table you're in, not because of anything other than your talent and your work ethic.
And that's all anybody ever is asking for is for people with talent and work ethic to make it. And that's what I see in you.
ALLISON: Yes.
JENNINGS: That's how I see you.
ALLISON: But let me tell you something about my story and my family's story is that we have faced discrimination. I have faced -- I just said I was the least paid person even in this moment sometimes to my counterparts. It is just the reality of the country we live in.
And I'm not saying -- I do believe I'm qualified. I know I'm qualified. You won't ever tell me I'm not qualified. But the system that I live in --
CHAMPION: Correct.
ALLISON: -- doesn't matter about my qualifications.
JENNINGS: I don't agree because --
AIDALA: We're in 2025. CHAMPION: Oh, come on.
AIDALA: I don't think we're that in 2025.
CHAMPION: Come on. That's just not true. That's just not true.
JENNINGS: I don't know.
PHILLIP: There is a mountain of evidence that suggests that you are wrong, OK? Let's just say Ashley --
AIDALA: I'm a New Yorker, so I'm jaded. The attorney general is a black woman. The mayor is a black man. The head of the Senate is a black woman.
PHILLIP: OK, we just want -- OK.
CHAMPION: New York is a small representation of the Unites States of America.
AIDALA: Not small. New York is not that small.
PHILLIP: -- politics. OK. Let me just talk -- let me talk about --
AIDALA: Every judge may appear before us is either a woman or a person of color.
PHILLIP: Ashley just gave an anecdote but the numbers also show black women are one of the most educated demographics in this country, and one of the least paid. Why would that make any sense?
CHAMPION: Why would that make any sense? And don't talk to me about the judges you stand before. Talk to me about the theory.
AIDALA: Hold on.
CHAMPION: Talk to me about the world in which we live in and the system that we live in.
AIDALA: Let's look at the United States Supreme Court. How can you say, we're not going to look at that, from the top to the bottom. And I'm talking about the leadership system.
GRIFFIN: OK, New York is a more progressive city.
ALLISON: And we just got a black woman.
PHILLIP: Hold up, let me, excuse me.
ALLISON: We just got a black woman on the board.
PHILLIP: You brought up the Supreme Court.
AIDALA: You had a black man from the '70s, from the '60s.
ALLISON: One. Who? AIDALA: Hold on. How many more percentage of it if it doesn't represent in the United States of America?
CHAMPION: Why is it so --
ALLISON: So why does it matter?
CHAMPION: Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge what she just said? Why is it so hard?
AIDALA: Why is there only one Italian American?
CHAMPION: No, but why is it so hard for you to acknowledge what she just said about black women being the most educated?
AIDALA: I did acknowledge it. I said that's not my experience.
CHAMPION: OK, but we're -- because you're not a black woman.
AIDALA: No, I'm a New Yorker and that's not the way it is in New York.
GRIFFIN: But New York is not a representative of the rest of America. That's also what's important.
ALLISON: It's also the most diversity in the country.
GRIFFIN: Well, that's exactly. So, of course there's more representation in women.
CHAMPION: And Scott, I think if you -- if you really see -- you said something very beautiful. This is your friend. You guys share a lot of the same values. You guys think alike. You guys are literally friends off air. You text, you have good conversations. There is the yes end in that. There is something that says to me that you know what she's saying is true.
You think she's smart. You know that she's smart. You know she's more educated than mostly everyone at this table. And so what she's saying isn't a lie. What she's saying is a real life experience. And so why is it so hard to understand why something like diversity, equity, inclusion needs to be a part of what we do in a system that never even acknowledged a group of people, never saw us as a human commodity?
Literally, never noticed who we were. And now here we are years later asking for some simple rights, some simple civility. She's asking to be paid like you get paid. She's asking to be acknowledged like you get acknowledged.
[22:45:00]
And she knows that that is not the case because she is a black woman.
JENNINGS: She -- she had a high-ranking position in the White House of the United States of America.
CHAMPION: Dear friend --
JENNINGS: She is one of the most celebrated political operatives in the country.
CHAMPION: There's a thousand.
ALLISON: Do you know how hard I had to work to get that?
JENNINGS: Do you know how hard this son of a garbage man had to work at it? So, I'm just telling you --
ALLISON: I'm not saying that --
JENNINGS: -- talent -- talent and work ethic are everything. And that's why I think you're here.
CHAMPION: It's just not true.
PHILLIP: The other thing is, the access to opportunity is -- I know you don't want to think that that is true, but access to opportunity is what DEI is supposed to address. And not just when it comes to race, although race is important, but when it comes to women, when it comes to people with disabilities, when it comes to people from different socio-economic bracket from rural parts of the country.
AIDALA: I think that's the biggest issues. Also, different social and economic brackets more than race and gender.
PHILLIP: Now, we're trying to say that everything is equal just because I say it is even though all the evidence --
AIDALA: Who said everything is equal?
PHILLIP: Well, that's literally we're like -- we're already living in a meritocratic society is what Scott and his colleagues want to say when that's actually factually not true.
ALLISON: Do you not think everything is equal?
JENNINGS: But I think it's generally true.
ALLISON: So, OK, OK. Then let's talk --
AIDALA: But I think it will seek its own level. I don't think the government should be telling us to seek it's own.
ALLISON: But you literally earlier just said --
PHILLIP: Hold on, DEI is not about the government. You all are talking to private companies --
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- and telling them --
ALLISON: You can't do it. PHILLIP: -- the way you want to operate.
ALLISON: But Arthur, you literally just said, "I don't think it will seek itself out" because you literally just said "human nature, that's how we operate".
CHAMPION: That's right.
ALLISON: So sometimes, which is why the civil rights movement was so important.
AIDALA: I think it's more socio-economic than it is racial.
ALLISON: This is why they talk about canceling the Department of Education, why they talk about the federal government. The reason why the federal government was so important, particularly for black people to seek justice in this country, is because it was the one bastion of hope that people had when states took control and they had discriminatory practice laws.
AIDALA: OK, but that was a long time ago.
CHAMPION: What? How long ago? Tell me how long ago was that? How long ago was that?
PHILLIP: We got to go. We got to go, but it was not that long ago.
CHAMPION: I know, yeah.
PHILLIP: It was not that long ago. It was in Ashley's father's lifetime. It was in my father's lifetime. Everyone stay with me. We will be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:40]
PHILLIP: We are back and it's time for the news nightcap. The Super Bowl Suite edition. Let me explain this one to you. So, we are learning that Eagles fan Jill Biden will be attending the game. She will likely be at the same game as President Trump, although they will not obviously sit in the same box.
But how fun would that be to be a fly on the wall if that were the case? So, you each have 30 seconds to tell us which odd couple you would put together in a Super Bowl Suite. Scott, you're up.
JENNINGS: Oh gosh. I'll go with, Dr. Jill Biden, by the way.
AIDALA: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
JENNINGS: I just want to make sure we get that in.
AIDALA: She is a silly one, by the way.
JENNINGS: I mean, she's got a degree. ALLISON: Your time is ticking.
JENNINGS: I'll go with Winston Churchill and Hulk Hogan. Two amazing orators who would have a lot to talk about in terms of rallying crowds and getting people to come to their side.
PHILLIP: All right, Ashley. Okay this is not an odd couple but I just want to have fun because it's the Super Bowl.
CHAMPION: And you're going.
ALLISON: And I'm going. So, if anybody has a box they want to put me in. Shane was like, no, I would do Coach Prime and Big Freida.
CHAMPION: Oh.
ALLISON: You already know.
UNKNOWN: That's funny.
PHILLIP: All right. Arthur.
AIDALA: While I am watching the Super Bowl with Lawrence Taylor who is always fun to be with but apparently I wasn't allowed to announce him because he's my friend. So, I really wanted to hang out with someone.
JENNINGS: Name dropper.
AIDALA: That's who I would really be with, but I would be with President Clinton, who I think is just a great guy and he's a lot of fun to hang out with.
JENNINGS: Wow.
AIDALA: And Charles Barkley, who's absolutely hysterical and he's the life of the party, and I think the two of them would get along great and I'd just sit back and listen.
PHILLIP: That would be a very interesting group.
GRIFFIN: I do not care about football and I don't understand it, but I like knowing what people are talking about, so I'd bring Stephen A. Smith to explain enough of the game that I could like go to work the next day and know the highlights. And then I'd bring Andy Cohen to talk about my actual sport, Real Housewives, and that would be my evening.
PHILLIP: Ding, ding, ding. That's the winner for me. OK, go ahead, Cari.
CHAMPION: I'm actually going to the Super Bowl, and we are going to connect. Ashley, we'll have a good time. So we'll know what that is about. I think I am thinking it will be Elon Musk and Ta-Nehisi Coates. I would love to -- ALLISON: That sweet is not big enough. I would like to see them have a conversation about life and what it will be. I would find that entertaining and it would probably be a better show than this.
PHILLIP: We invite them to the sweet. We invite them to join us on this show together, maybe, who knows? Everyone, thank you very much. Coming up next, Donald Trump's Gaza Plan forces Republicans to field uncomfortable questions about America first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:46]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a glimpse at the Republican seesaw. So, here's how it works. Donald Trump says something, in this case his plan for an American takeover of Gaza, and Republicans try to figure out which side of the plan they're on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: We have to back Israel a hundred percent and so whatever form that takes we're interested in having that discussion. But it was a surprising development but I think it's one that we'll applaud.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, you're sending in U.S. troops?
SEN. KEVIN KRAMER (R-NORTH DAKOTA): It doesn't make -- it doesn't make sense. Really not our business right now.
REP. BRIAN MAST (R) CHAIR, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: We're not talking about sending troops in Gaza. We're talking about, say, that all options are always on the table.
SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-ALASKA): What is the plan? It's quite vague. Is that aid? Troops? I mean it's a big issue.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R) CHAIR, ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE: I mean, it would surprise us all, I'll say that. So, I think --
RAJU: It's feasible?
CAPITO: I -- I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: One GOP lawmaker with a very clear opinion on the matter, Rand Paul, who posted this, quote, "The pursuit of peace should be that of the Israelis and the Palestinians. I thought we voted for America first. We have no business contemplating yet another occupation to doom our treasure and spill our soldiers' blood."
[23:00:00] PHILLIP: It will be a very interesting day tomorrow when Trump and Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu go over to Capitol Hill for a visit. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
