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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Musk Rehires DOGE Aide Who Resigned Over Racist Posts; Trump Admits Musk's DOGE Getting Access to Sensitive Data; Trump Terminates Kennedy Center Board. A Federal Judge Blocks Trump Administration's Plan To Put All USAID Workers On Leave; Homeland Security Secretary Noem Checks Out Operations at Guantanamo Bay. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 07, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the world's most powerful man and the world's richest are together gutting the United States government. But is the spotlight big enough for them both?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Elon is doing a great job.
PHILLIP: Plus, a Doge employee with a history of racism gets the backing of the White House and a second chance.
Also, Donald Trump fires the Kennedy Center board to become king of culture.
And resistance to the resistance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they prepared to shoot us? We want in.
PHILLIP: Are Democrats equipped for this moment?
Live at the table, Toure, Lance Trover, Jenna Arnold, Melik Abdul, and Congressman Ro Khanna.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, the acceptance of racism. Tonight, a DOGE staffer who resigned after racist posts surfaced about him is getting his job back. Elon Musk wanted to crowdsource the decision, and one of the respondents leaping to the employee's defense was the vice president of the United States. J.D. Vance, among other things, said in a social media post that this shouldn't ruin a kid's life. First of all, that kid is 25 years old. Secondly, he recently made those posts, as recently as December. And third, he is now tasked with accessing sensitive information about Americans without oversight. Even the president echoed Vance's sentiment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: One of the DOGE engineers was fired for some inappropriate posts. The vice president says, bring him back. What do you say?
TRUMP: Well, I don't know about the particular thing. But if the vice president said that, did you say that? I'm with the vice president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, inappropriate posts, let me tell you about what we're talking about here. This is who they've decided to defend. The user called for the repeal of the Civil Rights Act. He called for a eugenic immigration policy. He said the world should normalize Indian hate.
Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, who is Indian-American and is here tonight, like Vance's wife, is also Indian-American. He asked the vice president just a simple question on X, are you going to tell him to apologize for saying, quote, normalize Indian hate, before he is rehired into the government just asking for the sake of both of our kids? That apparently struck a nerve. Vance responded telling Khanna to grow up, adding quote racist trolls on the internet, while offensive, don't threaten my kids but he says a culture that denies grace to people who make mistakes does. Vance went even further in another post accusing Khanna of emotional blackmail of the DODGE staffer, adding, quote, you disgust me.
Well, the congressman is here, so I want to start with you because I, for one, was flabbergasted by that exchange. How did you take it?
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I was surprised that he reacted in the way he did. Look, I praised Usha Vance actually just a week-and-a-half ago. I said as an Indian-American, I'm proud of her ascent as a second lady. And I've known Usha. I've known the vice president. And all I was saying is you have someone who's 25 years old, who has made deeply offensive comments about Indian-Americans, who's talked about repealing the Civil Rights Act, who has talked about his disapproval of interracial marriage. You're going to rehire him. Is he going to apologize? Is he going to have any accountability? No one is saying, cancel him. But you can't just rehire him and say, okay, everything is fine, and he's going to represent the United States government.
PHILLIP: Why not cancel him? Just asking. Because we're living in an era where we're being told that if you talk about diversity, you should be canceled out of the government, but you can post racist posts as of a month-and-a-half ago and welcome in?
TOURE, SUBSTACK AUTHOR, CULTURE FRIES BY TOURE: Yes. In a world where DEI and critical race theory and affirmative action are under attack, I feel like we're protecting white supremacists and racists and attacking black and brown people who want to be part of the fabric of the country. [22:05:10]
And I'm curious how the vice president would explain to his Indian children why he stood up for somebody who said, normalize Indian hate. Like what would he say? And that issue may not come up today.
PHILLIP: He also called the guy a racist troll. He acknowledged that this person who he wants back in the government is racist.
KHANNA: They obviously fired him in the first place, right? Why did they fire him?
JENNA ARNOLD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, and I think that there's two things that I see happening here. The first one is that this is the signal to his voters that we are going to let these things slide, that you can't be canceled anymore. For all of us, however, the other vast majority of Americans, we're standing by the fact that we are going to hold people accountable to that.
And with all due respect, Congressman, an apology would not suffice for me in this particular circumstance. This is a moral character bedrock of somebody's perspective of the world. I don't care what you got on your grades at Stanford. I don't care what coding competition you won. These are not the kinds of people who should be filtering the biggest decisions in the design of this country.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: So, what? He's banished off into the desert for eternity?
ARNOLD: No, I'm not interested in --
TROVER: Like wreck his life, wreck his career, send him off into --
TOURE: So, you're okay with racism in your party?
TROVER: Hold on man, let me finish. That is not what I said, so don't even go there. Absolutely not. I think it's abhorrent what he said. I frankly agree. If he's willing to acknowledge what he said was wrong, and apologize for it, we are compassionate people. Why can't we do this?
ARNOLD: Which he didn't do, though. He didn't do that.
TROVER: Well, we don't know that he's done that or not.
ARNOLD: But he has access to the world wide web, and you're welcome to apologize. We're very much looking forward to it.
PHILLIP: And also the congressman asked J.D. Vance, the vice president, should this person apologize? Vance didn't say, yes, he should. He said, God, I mean, he said all kinds of terrible things about the congressman for whatever reason.
TROVER: He acknowledged that the comments were sophomoric and terrible and all the stuff that he said.
PHILLIP: And racist, yes.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: He called the guy a racist troll and now he's like, come back to the government.
MELIK ABDUL, GOP POLITICAL STRATEGIST: J.D. Vance would have been better served if they just disowned this in the beginning. But this is one of those easy things to do. It wouldn't have been much backlash against JD Vance and Donald Trump. If Elon Musk just decided, okay, well, this guy's going. I think this is more about Elon Musk's guy than anything else, because in most other situations, they would have just said, okay, we're going to cut ties with you, which is exactly what they ended up doing.
But I still think that this part of -- this connection to Elon Musk, where many people have Donald J. Trump as president, J.D. Vance as vice president, but then Elon Musk as a Republican member of Congress described him as Prime Minister Musk, I think putting Elon Musk on the same level of Donald J. Trump, where we excuse everything that he does, I think that that's just really problematic.
TOURE: Vance is wrong in that the information that we are receiving, the slurs that we receive as black and brown people, as women online, is hurtful, right? This is not -- it doesn't matter what culture is worse. That's not true. And this individual works in government. When I go to my government and ask them for something, for help, do I have to worry that the person on the other end of the email or phone is racist and actually hates me and has been online saying, we think you should be, whatever, deported or whatever? He should apologize.
(CROSSTALKS)
TROVER: Absolutely, I'm not arguing, I completely agree with him.
ARNOLD: But, again, like, I do want to challenge us, this isn't an apology. Like I can -- I have a five-year-old at home, he says he's sorry and he does not mean it to his sister all of the time. It's just to get through the thing. I believe that the Trump administration was so eager for a moment like this, to be like, see guys, don't worry, we're going to save you. We're going to make these things insignificant. We're going to de-currency these kinds of statements and provide air cover.
I agree with you. I think they chose the wrong one to die on the hill of. But we as a society, as much as you want to strip DEI and wokism and CRT, it's not going to work. We're all still here.
PHILLIP: I think that the -- this is happening in the context of a lot of other things in this government. And part of the point that I'm trying to bring to the table is that this is the same government that is saying at the Department of Defense we're going to stop acknowledging Black History Month. We're going to go into DOD schools and address what they are learning there.
This is from Jamie Raskin. He says he received this memo from constituents abroad on a U.S. military base who are parents in the DOD school system. They are outraged at censorship like this is happening against military families. One asked a school official why they removed photos on the wall of Susan B. Anthony and Dr. King but not Leonardo da Vinci and was told, quote, he was a real historical figure.
[22:10:02]
This is also happening in the same government. So, I don't know, how are we supposed to interpret this with our eyes and our ears?
TROVER: Well, I'm not familiar with that and what's going on. Obviously, I would believe that is wrong. It should not be happening in our government and I would love to know more about what happened. We're talking here -- we're talking about two different things, if it's about DEI and qualifications for jobs versus giving somebody a second chance.
PHILLIP: Those are not different things, okay? Because if we talk about qualifications for a job, and you're also telling me that you are willing to hire somebody who is a self-described racist, then how is that person qualified for a job serving the American people in the government?
KHANNA: What explains the vice president -- here's what I didn't understand. I mean, he was so emotional about this. It's such an outburst. I'm not saying that he's not condemning the racism. He did, but why can't he just say, yes, the person should apologize before being reconsidered? What is the hesitancy for him to say it? Is it political that he doesn't want to offend a base? Is it -- what is it that, that he can't say that?
TROVER: Well, I came on here, I had not seen your back and forth, I'll be honest with you. But I can't speak -- look, I can't speak for the vice president, but I do know that he condemned the remarks from the outset.
KHANNA: But do you think he should, at the very least, say that before someone is hired, he should --
TROVER: Well, I'm not going to tell the vice president what he should or should not say.
KHANNA: So, you're not --
TROVER: I agree that I think the guy should at least acknowledge what he said was wrong and apologize.
KHANNA: And if he doesn't do that publicly, do you think he should be fired, the guy, if he doesn't acknowledge that?
TROVER: Yes, very clear. Look, I think he needs to acknowledge that he should not be hired back.
KHANNA: And do you think it would be a big mistake in terms of the signal that Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are sending? TROVER: No, I'm not getting into the signals and stuff. I'm talking about what I think should happen.
(CROSSTALKS)
TOURE: And we are saying that we are here to protect racists and white supremacists and the manosphere. That's what we're here to protect.
PHILLIP: But what signal do you think it sends? What signal do you think it sends that they're willing to have someone like that serving a Treasury?
TREASURY: Yes. Again. I think the guy should acknowledge what he did was wrong.
PHILLIP: I know. But I'm asking you, what do you think it, it tells the average American? I mean, if they're just watching and they're like, what's going on here? Why on earth would someone like that be in our government? What signal would the Trump administration be trying to send?
TROVER: Yes. Look, again, I go back to, I don't think they're trying to send some racist signal here. The kid made a mistake. He needs to acknowledge his mistakes.
PHILLIP: Let me stop describing him as a kid. He's 25 years old.
TROVER: Well, I'm 45.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on. This is not a child. 25 years old is somebody who could have a child. 25 years old is somebody who is in their mid-20s. They are a grown adult. They've had many, many years out in the workforce. Not a kid, okay? Let's stop infantilizing this person.
TROVER: Well, I wasn't doing that. I'm 45, so I view a 25-year-old as a kid, it sounds like a kid.
(CROSSTALKS)
ARNOLD: But it is making excuses for him. Because what we're saying, and, again, I'm going to hold the line on, an apology doesn't work here. This was --
TROVER: So, what is your answer then? What is your answer? What should we do?
ARNOLD: This is the first example of the Trump administration saying to the people who have been allergic to words like equity, inclusion, as in you can all sit with us, diversity which is, whether we like it or not, the entire state of the country, woke as in being just someone who's paying attention. Hey, you don't have to worry about that anymore. I know that was a really hard process for you.
TROVER: What is your answer? What is your answer in a situation like that? He should be banished off into the misery --
(CROSSTALKS)
TOURE: What we are dealing with is that Trump is ushering in an era when people feel, especially white people, feel it's comfortable to say anything. And you encounter this on the street, in between cars, and you see this all the time in videos that we capture on the street, that people are saying crazy things to people they think are immigrants, or are black, or are female. And this is advertising that this is okay to this administration, the top people in the country, this is okay.
PHILLIP: Let me offer one other aspect of this. Because, I mean, we're at the end of a week in which DOGE has been everywhere. But I'm still not seeing a lot of evidence, Congressman, that they're really making a dent in what they're supposed to be making a dent in, which is government spending. And the president said today he would put the Pentagon budget on the table.
But a lot of this, to me, seems kind of performative. Even getting rid of all of USAID, you're not even getting close. So, do you get the sense that this is really going to be about bringing down government spending or just axing the things that speak to the base?
KHANNA: Well, look, USAID, as you know, is less than one tenth of one percent of the federal budget. And Americans, unfortunately, think it's 20 to 25 percent. But it's less than 0.1 percent. The most of the federal budget, as you pointed out, is defense and discretionary budget. It's over 56 percent.
When Musk was named to DOGE, I, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren gave a detailed list and said, okay, if you're serious about cutting spending, let's look at the five primes, let's look at the cost overlines.
[22:15:09]
Come to Congress and present some of those cuts.
Now, when the president actually presents to Congress those cuts, I'll take it seriously. Until then, it's total window dressing.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, do you believe at all that they will even approach that? Because they haven't asked, come to Congress about any of the other cuts, so why would they come to Congress about that?
KHANNA: Well, they haven't made any recommendations to Congress, and now they are basically saying that Congress doesn't matter, that they can stop payments themselves in terms of things that Congress, Article 1 in the Constitution says Congress should appropriate money. And they're saying no. They get to decide, Elon Musk and Donald Trump and J.D. Vance get to decide that they can stop spending money, they can stop spending money for public schools and working class kids, they can stop spending money for Medicare, stop spending money for Social Security, if they so choose. This is literally their theory. TOURE: This is not really about efficiency. This is about weakening the federal government. So that Trump can have more powers. Do you agree with that?
KHANNA: This is about having them make, have control over spending and cutting spending in any way that they want. I mean, this is -- they have this theory. They literally have this theory that Congress can only set the maximums so the president can cut what Congress is allocating if the president wants. It is absurd.
ABDUL: So, they can have a theory, but I think the Constitution, and I think that a lot of this stuff is going to be played out in the courts. And I think that Donald Trump actually expects a lot of this stuff some of the things they're going to be able to get through. But the things that are going to be challenged in court, that, like you said, that according to the Constitution, Congress has the power to do, I think those things are just not (ph).
PHILLIP: I mean, Lance, what do you think? I mean, are you seeing any evidence that there's any seriousness about cutting the budget because they're not --
TROVER: He talked about the Pentagon and the Education Department today. I think they're absolutely serious and I think they're going to continue going forward and digging into these agencies.
But I look at this through -- I'm a political operative and I hear you, Congressman, but here's the way I see this breaking down. You have a guy who, for eight years, his entire thesis of running was to come into Washington and tear it apart by the seams. 77 million people on November 5th agreed with him, knowing full well what he was going to come to Washington and do.
On the other hand, you have the Democratic Party working with the bureaucracy in Washington D.C. side lean up to maintain the status quo of what's going on. I heard everything you said. I'm sorry. Everything I heard you saying was let's protect the status quo as it is.
KHANNA: That's just not true.
TROVER: No, let me finish. Let me finish.
PHILLIP: He actually literally wrote an op-ed saying, here are all the things that we can cut.
TROVER: Hold on just a second, okay? I'm just saying. So, when we have this discussion about the Democratic Party and where you guys are and where you see the future going and all that stuff, what I see is you guys hanging out with the 20 or 30 percent of the country that likes the status quo, and where things are, and Donald Trump with the 70 or 80 percent of the country that wants to see Washington change.
KHANNA: They don't want to see those changes.
PHILLIP: Just for reference. KHANNA: You know, I was with a voter in Johnstown who voted for President Trump. And she said she'd still vote for him, but she's a little concerned. I said, why are you concerned? She said I voted for him because he said he was going to cut taxes on overtime pay. I voted for him because he was going to cut taxes on tips. I voted for him because he was going to cap interest rates on my credit card. And what am I hearing? That Musk and DOGE may be stopping Medicare payments.
Musk's popularity is at around 30 percent. Donald Trump is making a huge mistake because he's not delivering on why he won, which was to help working class people who were struggling, and he's instead engaged in cuts to working class folks for the schools they fund, for their special needs kids, for their benefits they rely on. And he's going to --
TROVER: And why does he have a 53 percent approval rate?
KHANNA: He doesn't. He's at 45 percent.
PHILLIP: For the record, the federal spending freeze, which is on hold, is unpopular. 60 percent of Americans oppose that policy move. So, we'll continue to monitor how Americans are looking at all of this.
Everyone, stick around. Breaking news tonight, President Trump also is gutting a cultural D.C. institution whose honorees once snubbed him. My panel will discuss why, next.
And a federal judge blocking the first step in the Trump administration's plan to gut USAID, but do Democratic lawmakers have a strategy to push back in this era? We'll ask Congressman Khanna about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight, President Trump has given himself a brand new title, chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Kennedy Center. He posted this on social media, I have decided to immediately terminate multiple individuals from the board of trustees, including the chairman, who do not share our vision for a golden age in arts and culture. We will soon announce a new board with an amazing chairman, Donald J. Trump. Real, this is a real post.
The current chairman, David Rubenstein, is an ally of former President Joe Biden. CNN has reached out for comment from the Kennedy Center, Rubenstein, and the other members of the board. One member who was appointed by a Democratic president said they had not yet heard of news related to the status of the board.
My panel is back with us. And just moments ago, the Kennedy Center put out a statement saying they have heard about the social media posts. And some of the board members have received termination notices from the administration. There are some many questions here, as usually there are, about whether this even can be done because the Kennedy Center board is a congressionally authorized entity.
[22:25:10]
They serve out six-year terms. Trump has some folks on there, Lee Greenwood, Paolo Zampoli and Pam Bondi, all on the Kennedy Center board. Why does he want this? Does anybody know?
ABDUL: I think that this -- what it sounds like, at least the structure of the Kennedy Center is similar to a lot of independent agencies. So, you have independent agencies where it comes to statutorily, you have to have a number of both Democrats and Republicans on. That's just what this sounds like. I think, and I haven't checked into this, it may be the case where some of those board members, their terms are getting ready to expire and Donald Trump is just saying that, hey, I'm going to replace them.
PHILLIP: That's not what he said, though.
ARNOLD: This is not governance. This is about board governance.
TOURE: Yes. Cultures are important in America and the Kennedy Center has been a very important place to celebrate American culture, and I think the right recognizes that that culture generally extols lefty values and are made up liberal people. And this is an attack on that and saying, like we're going to put our own sort of cultural figures in place instead.
ABDUL: Well, the Kennedy center did not welcome them. It was not a welcoming place for Donald Trump when he was president of the United States. And I think that they need to accept responsibility for that. But whether or not Donald Trump -- Donald Trump is president of the United States, probably being chair, probably.
PHILLIP: I mean, I think that that history between Trump and the Kennedy Center has a lot to do with some of the people that the Kennedy Center honors, artists, actors, Robert De Niro famously doesn't like Donald Trump, but he's also a very famous celebrated actor They can't control people's views nor should they try to curry favor with the president just to make him happy when their job is to address the culture. I mean, I don't see why --
ABDUL: Well, they're just leftist culture.
ARNOLD: Well, hold on a second. This Kennedy center is named after a president who valued public service, intellectual, collective curiosity, inviting artists in. What do artists do nationally and globally? They challenge those in power, even countries throughout the Middle East conservative countries. They hold their poets sacred. They're the only ones who are allowed to challenge authority.
This has nothing to do with board governance. This has nothing to do with grudge. This is a protection of what is ultimately going to be, I fear, a propaganda machine for the right.
PHILLIP: Well, it wouldn't be a Donald Trump first 100-day move if it did not involve drag shows, because he says one of the reasons he's doing this is because, last year, the Kennedy Center featured drag shows specifically targeting our youth. This will stop.
KHANNA: Well, first of all, it's how abnormal this is, right? Ronald Reagan didn't do this, George Bush Sr. didn't do this. George W. Bush didn't do this. No one comes in and just fires the entire board. And, you know, I've gone actually from having anger at some of the things that Donald Trump does to just sadness. How we've fallen.
I mean, John F. Kennedy inspired the world. Every person looked to America, including my parents who were going to immigrate, saying, wow, we want to go to America. They're leading civilization. They're leading the best of humanity. And now you have a president, when there's a plane crash, who can't even talk about the grief of families. How have we fallen to this point?
Tony Kushner once said, how can a country that produced Abraham Lincoln produce Donald Trump? And I think he asked the most profound question, but we're going to come back. This is just a terrible moment in our history.
TOURE: We're used to having people who have amazing values, like JFK, right, who are president. We have somebody who is petty and vindictive.
TROVER: I'm sorry, guys. You guys are in a bubble. You are so in a bubble. Yes, he doesn't act that. Why do you think they put him back in the office? Because he doesn't do things like every other president out there. That's what you guys are missing about what the rest of the world outside of the Acela Corridor, New York and D.C., everybody thinks it's like living in this bubble where, oh, yes, we should just keep things the way they were, but here comes Donald Trump. That is not how the rest of the country thinks right now.
(CROSSTALKS)
TOURE: How does this help the country?
TROVER: We can talk about tax cuts if you want.
ARNOLD: Hold on. Let's just stay focused on the Kennedy Center. The whole objective is to center art and to push boundaries on our collective curiosity. How has Donald Trump and what do you believe Donald Trump will do to protect that?
PHILLIP: But also, I mean --
ABDUL: He's not going to stop doing -- he's not going to be running operations.
TROVER: He's the ultimate T.V. producer of all time. Maybe it'll get better.
PHILLIP: We're kind of losing -- we're losing the thread here because I actually think, you know, Lance, you're right. Trump won, obviously. People voted for him. But the Kennedy Center is a bipartisan institution.
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Trump supporters are on there. Biden supporters are on there. There are people from the left and the right on the same board. And actually, that's what makes it different. And Americans, I know that you're -- you're trying to say that Americans endorse every single thing about Donald Trump. We know that.
TROVER: I didn't say that.
PHILLIP: We know that's not true.
TROVER: I didn't say that. No, I didn't say that.
PHILLIP: But Americans also, they -- they don't necessarily want their whole identity to be balkanized into left and right.
TROVER: Well, first off, I never said they endorse every single thing Donald Trump did. I don't believe that for one second. But what I'm saying is I keep hearing this same mentality, which has been the mentality for years on end that somehow that this conventional wisdom inside the Beltway should just maintain when that's not how the rest of the world operates.
PHILLIP: No, I'm just saying just be specific. My point is that you got to be specific because you can make those generalizations and that's all good and well. But in this case, we're talking about a bipartisan institution that is statutorily bipartisan, and Trump is making it explicitly partisan. That is a change that does not align with the fact that this is a 50-50 country left and right.
MELIK ABDUL, GOP POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Yeah, but see, we don't know what, again, we don't know what it's going to look like, who can he get rid of. But the fact is, is that despite the history of the Kennedy Center, and you've even acknowledged, despite the history of the Kennedy Center, it has been a home for the left. It hasn't been a welcoming place for conservatives, and that's not from the board's perspective.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Trump decided to not go to the Kennedy Center. But previous presidents, including Republicans, have gone.
UNKNOWN: Yes, they absolutely.
PHILLIP: So, let's be clear about who is responsible for not being participating. But one last thing, I just want to make a note here. He fired, apparently, according to Sergio Gore, the archivist of the United States, a woman named Colleen Shogan. Unclear why, maybe he has an interest in the archivist. He's got an interest in quite a lot of things.
This is not, by the way, the person who was involved in his, you know, papers, his classified documents. This is just somebody else who just a year and a half ago invited Melania Trump to the National Archives to give a speech.
UNKNOWN: I think -- JENNA ARNOLD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: This is actually --
TOURE, SUBSTACK AUTHOR, "CULTURE FRIES BY TOURE": Who calls themselves amazing? Who writes a letter to the public and calls themselves the amazing --
PHILLIP: Donald J. Trump.
TOURE: -- and calls themselves the amazing -- I mean, that's the ridiculousness of this person.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I want to take Lance's point seriously because I agree with you that Donald Trump ran as wanting change and that a lot of people wanted change. The change they wanted that Trump identified was they didn't want our factories going to China. They didn't want offshoring of jobs. They were upset with the economy.
But Americans love the Constitution. They don't want to change that. Americans love the Super Bowl. If Donald Trump was like, let's get rid of the Super Bowl, they don't want to change that. Americans love the Kennedy Center. So, they don't want to throw out the country. They want certain changes, but you're conflating that with throwing out some of the most sacred traditions in this country.
UNKNOWN: The Kennedy Center?
TROVER: You just love the Kennedy Center and the Super Bowl together.
ARNOLD: I think there are some people who would probably suggest that the Kennedy Center is comparable to the Super Bowl.
UNKNOWN: Sure.
TROVER: Yeah. Left-wing America.
ARNOLD: But I will -- correct. Most artists are left leaning. But can I come back to the archivist for --
PHILLIP: Guys, I just think most people don't have strong feelings about the Kennedy Center. So you're strong feelings against them and anybody's strong feelings for them, it's an institution that has been functioning just fine.
TOURE: But it's about the right's jealousy and anger that the left seems to have a monopoly on culture.
PHILLIP: Yeah. All right everyone, hang tight. Breaking news tonight, a federal judge has blocked the Trump administration's plan to put all USAID workers on leave even as they're taking down, literally, the signs outside of the building. We're going to discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:38:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, a federal judge has temporarily blocked Trump from putting 2200 USAID workers on leave. That move was the administration's first step to try to shut down the agency. And it came on the same day that the Trump administration was preparing to close up shop at USAID's offices in Washington, literally taking down the sign on top of the door less than a week after the first comments about its closure.
Elon Musk saying on social media that Customs and Border Protection are now in that building. But, you know, this is just one of the many things that's been happening. But I think it's really just the opening salvo as we were discussing earlier.
What's next is pretty clear. Department of Education -- it's probably going to be maybe even the Department of Labor. You can start to see some of these changes. Congressman, are Democrats ready for this?
KHANNA: We are. And two things. One, we've got to stop just talking about the departments and talking about real-world people. I mean, this is not getting funding for working-class neighborhoods, kids' schools. If you have a kid who has disabilities and you have an IEP program, Donald Trump wants to stop that funding. If you have a kid who needs student loans, Donald Trump wants to stop that.
And here's what Democrats are going to do and we're going to prevail. There's not a single Democrat who's going to vote for increasing the debt ceiling or going to vote for Donald Trump's ridiculous budget if he does not guarantee that he's going to spend every single penny that Congress appropriates and authorizes. And he's going to see the tenacity of Hakeem Jeffries, and Hakeem Jeffries is going to win that fight.
TOURE: I hope that you're right. And Congressman Jeffries is my Congressman and I know him and I respect him. I don't feel like democrats are ready for this fight. I feel like we are not playing the same game that we're playing by the markets of Queensbury rules and they're doing MMA. And I mean, I think many Democrats would say what is going on? We don't feel ready. We don't feel protected by what's going on.
KHANNA: Well, look, I think that you're going to see that I acknowledge that for the first couple months after the loss, Democrats, we were so saddened, we were a bit surprised. It was not our finest hour. But what happened with these stop payments and what's happened with cutting benefits that actually help Americans has woken this party up, and you're going to see a unity when it comes to the debt ceiling vote and when it comes to the funding government vote.
And the reality is we know what makes Donald Trump fold. There's one thing. The market's going down. That's why he lost to Prime Minister Trudeau and President of Mexico, President Sheinbaum. He saw the market's going down 500 points. Oh no, oh no, I'm no longer for these tariffs. He folded to them. And he's going to fold to the House Democrats because he's going to need our votes.
PHILLIP: Let me play a little bit of what was happening in Washington with some Democratic lawmakers staging a protest outside of the Department of Education. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARK TAKANO (D-CA): -- authority can you deny members of Congress their oversight role?
UNKNOWN: We're here speaking for a ton of kids from coast to coast that deserve quality public education.
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): He's standing here today blocking the door and he can't give us a good reason why he's blocking this door.
REP. LATEEFAH SIMON (D-CA): We are not allowed to advocate on behalf of America's children. America, we have a problem.
REP. GREGORIO CASAR (D-TX): But now how it works is they send police after members of Congress January 6th rioters, we're walking them out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I saw some heads shaking.
ABDUL: So, there -- there we go. And they actually -- I'm glad you guys played that clip. Now, one thing, Donald Trump has not said, at least I haven't heard anything from Donald Trump, him wanting to eliminate student loans or programs in different communities. He was really focused on --
PHILLIP: He said literally, I'm going to eliminate the Department of Education.
ABDUL: He said that about the Department of Education.
UNKNOWN: We should have all these programs.
ABDUL: This is something that Republicans and conservatives have been talking about for years when it comes to eliminating the Department of Education. You've said it many times. You know just as well as many other people do that there is a Constitutional role for Congress in this. So, I don't even believe that --
PHILLIP: I don't know why you would say that.
ABDUL: I don't -- I don't --
PHILLIP: USAID is authorized by Congress, too, and that's --
ARNOLD: And why the signs came down today.
ABDUL: Right. But I don't -- I don't believe -- I don't believe that you would even have a majority of Republicans who will vote to shut down the Department of Education. I don't think that's a good way.
ARNOLD: Republicans have been the party of national defense of the strongman theory worldwide and they're just sitting back watching USAID flounder. USAID's objective is to make sure that we are protecting ourselves from violent extremism that surfaces when we are taking full benefits away from folks.
PHILLIP: I did see you shaking your head during that video of those protests. I mean, where are the Democrats at?
ARNOLD: Because I think it's performative. I think it's a joke. And I agree with Toure on this, that I do --the Democratic, the Democrats in general are not exactly sure what their footing is, because I would also argue that I don't think Donald Trump is. I think maybe, the only person who understands where it is that we're heading might be Elon Musk.
But I think the whole point what I'm enthusiastic and looking forward to about this moment is that now, Americans understand what the government actually does. They understand that it's not just casual throwing up --
ABDUL: What it did.
ARNOLD: what it did -- what throwing up stop signs here and there are preventing violent extremism from ending up in our towers. I mean it is -- there is this visual that I have where I've seen and what I feel like are mostly Will Smith films where you see the birds flying overhead and people still at picnics and like the rest of the world knows what's about to happen and we don't.
PHILLIP: All right everyone, hang tight. Coming up next, the Trump administration is sending migrants on military flights now to Guantanamo Bay. But how much is this all costing the American taxpayer? We'll discuss.
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[22:48:21[
KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I'm down here at Guantanamo Bay checking out some of the operations that we're standing up to house the worst of the worst and illegal criminals that are in the United States of America. They won't be there for long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Tonight, new video there from the Department of Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem. She's on the ground at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as the Trump administration is ramping up its expansion of the notorious facility to turn it into a detention space for up to 30,000 undocumented migrants with criminal records.
Satellite photos taken earlier today show new tents built on the base. And all of this leads to a very big question -- how much do these plans actually cost? Well, $13 million yearly for each detainee. That's according to a 2019 analysis by "The New York Times". Adjusted for inflation, that figure could soar to $36 million this year.
So DOGE, where are you? OK. In addition to those costs of just the facility being stood up and housing migrants, you got the cost of the planes, these military planes that cost tens of thousands of dollars. So far, they've only transported about two dozen migrants to Guantanamo Bay.
TOURE: All that work for two dozen people, couple hundred people.
ARNOLD: Maybe if you gave them some of that $36 million they would just leave.
TOURE: I mean, I appreciate the economic point of the segment and the question, but the point here is the cruelty. And the point is to be cruel to people. And they don't care about the price. And exorbitant price might be worth it to them, get this dopamine fill of being cruel to these people.
[22:50:00]
ABDUL: I don't think it's cruel.
PHILLIP: The price does matter.
TOURE: -- criminal in Guantanamo Bay is cruel.
PHILLIP: I take your point. But the price, just in the context of this administration, what they care about. Presumptively, Lance, the price matters because they want to deport millions of people. And if they're doing it at this kind of price tag, there's no way that they'll get there.
TROVER: Well, I mean, you're -- I don't -- we're not going to put millions of people in Guantanamo Bay. I hear you on the cost factor, but I would just liken it to what I'd say is American priorities. The last time I checked, over 70 percent of this country wanted criminal, illegal aliens gone, out of it and so I don't think the cost factor is really factoring in for a lot of people.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I get it, but I mean, I think the Guantanamo of it all seems to be just to say that they're putting them in Guantanamo. There are other options to house 24, 25 dangerous migrants.
TROVER: Yeah, sure. There certainly are. Yeah, you're asking about the cause factor. I'm saying I think for Americans they put it on a price. I mean, ask Laken Riley's family if they give a damn how much it costs to put somebody at Guantanamo Bay. Ask somebody whose family member died of fentanyl that came in across the border if they care about giving illegal -- the criminal legal out of this country.
PHILLIP: Nobody is discounting the dangerousness of some of these people. The question though is why is the government picking the most expensive option to accomplish the task? They can imprison these people in maximum security facilities right here in the United States. They could deport them to their countries of origin, as they are doing with all of these other --
TOURE: This is theater. It's the cruelty. It's the theater of cruelty.
ARNOLD: It's the dehumanization of the process. And that is what I fear, that the American people are going to take some sort of satiated like enjoyment from. It is, we do not need to spend this, particularly on the other side of the aisle when everyone's speaking of running around with their hair caught on fire, talking about expenses.
This is optics. He is telling a brilliant story. I am punishing the people. I am cutting the places. I have someone standing outside the fences in a cowboy -- in a baseball hat and our hair barely in, we are like getting it done.
PHILLIP: There was another image -- there was another image that came out this week. There's video of Indian migrants on a 40-hour flight and one of the deportees said, they treated us like criminals. If we would try to stand up because our legs were swelling due to the handcuffs, they would yell at us to sit down.
They're basically being shackled at the ankles standing on a flight. That's also happening, too. Again, you can deport them. I mean, nobody's saying don't deport them. It's just the how of it.
KHANNA: And this is what was happening in Columbia when the Columbia president stood up to Donald Trump. He wasn't saying don't send the migrants. He was saying just don't send them in handcuffs.
ARNOLD: They're still humans.
KHANNA: Here's the thing with -- President George W. Bush created Guantanamo. And I was opposed to Guantanamo closing when President Obama ran, saying, we should close Guantanamo. But at least, President George W. Bush so carefully -- the argument he already made, he said, "I believe most criminals should get due process. I believe in America, they are --did -- they should get a hearing in the courts.
That's what we are as a Constitution. I wish we could do that. These are some of the most dangerous terrorist and we can't do that. That's what they said. And to go from that to Donald Trump with no regard for the Constitution -- no regard for the Constitution, that should be so offensive to every conservative in this country.
ABDUL: Well, see, what I'll just say there, this doesn't seem to be arbitrary. They said that they're going to go out for the criminals. I think at least for the 77 million people who voted for Donald Trump, they're going to be absolutely fine with sending criminals to Guantanamo Bay.
PHILLIP: Nobody's disputing that criminals should be deported. It's just a question of how they are. Coming up next, the panel gives us their nightcaps. They'll tell us who wins the Super Bowl, but not the Chiefs or the Eagles. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:22]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap. You each have 30 seconds to say who your non-football winner is of this weekend's Super Bowl. Malik, you're up.
ABDUL: My winner is the MAGA King himself, Donald J. Trump, becoming the first president to attend the Super Bowl.
ARNOLD: And I think I also heard you say that you were a Dallas Cowboy fan. Fortunately, I am a Eagles fan. And I would say resoundingly that the Poles in Philadelphia are going to be the winner this upcoming Sunday. Grease the poles. Go birds!
PHILLIP: Lance?
TROVER: If you're a fan of Tom Cruise, you better tune into the pre- game show because he's making an appearance with Brad Pitt. I don't know if he can top the Paris Olympics closing ceremony, but I figure if anybody can top Tom Cruise, it's Tom Cruise. So --
PHILLIP: All right.
TOURE: Kendrick Lamar is a kid from Compton who was just defending hip-hop when he said, Drake, you're not like us. You're not representing blackness right. He made the song of the year, and after years of just trying to study the science of hip-hop, he is a Super Bowl halftime show. Dreams do come true in America. Kendrick Lamar is the big winner this weekend.
PHILLIP: I think that is indisputably true that Kendrick has won this weekend. Go ahead.
KHANNA: I grew up in Philadelphia, so my prediction is that Saquon Barkley, the reverse hurdle guy, is going to get a statue next to Rocky on the Fort Valley Art Museum.
PHILLIP: All right, we will probably live to see the day that that happens. Everyone, thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". Thank you. And we'll see you actually tomorrow morning, 10 A.M. with our conversation show, "Table for Five". We have a good group for you. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
