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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Any Moment, Trump Greets American Released By Russia; Musk Defends DOGE Cuts Alongside Trump In Oval Office; Trump Says He'll Abide By The Courts As He Attacks Judges; President Trump Welcomes Back American School Teacher Marc Fogel; President Trump Suggests U.S. Would Have Ownership Over Gaza. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 11, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, Elon explains.
ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: They're going to get what they voted for.
PHILLIP: The head of DOGE defends his dismantling of the federal government.
MUSK: I have detractors?
REPORTER: You do, sir.
MUSK: I don't believe it.
PHILLIP: And his reasons for doing it.
REPORTER: Does that present a conflict of interest for you?
MUSK: No.
PHILLIP: Plus, the courts meet Donald Trump's actions with equal and opposite reactions, as Musk accuses judges of waging a coup.
Also restraint and reckoning, the king of Jordan shows nothing as he stands next to the American president who wants to turn Gaza into an American colony.
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, Nayyera Haq and Emily Austin.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Good evening, I'm Abby Philip in New York.
Any moment now, an extraordinary and inspiring seed will unfold at the White House. The American teacher who was detained in Russia for more than three years is now back on American soil. And he'll be greeted by the president at the White House.
Marc Fogel has been detained in Russia since August 2021 when he was accused of large scale drug smuggling. Fogel was released in what the White House is calling an exchange, though there is not much clarity on what the United States, if anything, gave in return.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us now live from the White House with more.
So, Zeleny, take us behind the scenes of this exchange. It came as a bit of a surprise today.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Abby, it did, but it's actually been in the works for quite some time. And the president is going to meet Marc Fogel in the diplomatic reception room once they make their way here to the White House. It's a snowy night in Washington. He'll be coming from Joint Base Andrews. You can see right there he's walking off the steps of the plane before he steps foot on American soil there wearing an American flag. It says Marc Fogel is back. Promises made, promises kept.
Those promises I'm told were made directly between the president and Marc Fogel's mother. They met actually back in Pennsylvania at that Butler, Pennsylvania, rally that, of course, was the assassination attempt on Donald Trump's life. So, that's where this began. And the mother there of Mark Fogel said that she was hoping the president would pay attention to her son's case. She was frustrated with the Biden administration's slow handling, in her view, of this. So, that's where Donald Trump's involvement in this was. So, he is going to be greeting Marc Fogel.
But it also marks the beginning of certainly new relations between the United States and Russia. This is the first time a U.S. official has been flown, at least as far as we know, to Moscow since Ukraine invasion. And Steve Witkoff, who, of course, is the president's special envoy to the Middle East and also other portfolios, he flew over there on his private plane unannounced. And then this afternoon, it was announced that Marc Fogel was coming back. He was in U.S. airspace or he was outside of Moscow's airspace.
So, really, it is opening up a conversation about what comes next between the U.S., of course, and Moscow. The president has spoken with Vladimir Putin at least one time, we're told, and he certainly wants to talk to him more. So, that is the question here. What does this signal?
And in terms of the one on one, it's unclear who the U.S. will be giving up for him. We'll likely hear that more tomorrow, Abby.
PHILLIP: Yes. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much, and do stand by for us, because we will take that event when it happens at the White House.
But in the meantime, we're going to talk about DOGE, DOGE and deference. Tonight, a picture that says much more about who's steering the government and its crash diet to slim America's bureaucracy down to size. Elon Musk held court at the Oval Office for nearly 30 minutes today, essentially relegating the president of the United States to a spectator. But did he adopt a Trump-style and substance? And by that, I mean, he said things with absolutely no proof to substantiate them.
He accused U.S. officials at USAID, the foreign aid agency that he just demolished, of taking, quote, kickbacks. And he accused unnamed federal employees of becoming millionaires off of government salaries, implying that they were up to something sinister. And he said some people who were getting Social Security checks were as old as 150, Musk gave no insight about how he arrived at those conclusions.
No proof about another critical question. If Musk's businesses will clash with how he is going about nipping and tucking your government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: All of our actions are fully public. So, if you see anything, you say like, wait a second, hey, that doesn't, that seems like maybe that's -- you know, there's a conflict there.
[22:05:00]
It's not like people are going to be shy about saying that. They'll say it immediately, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Including you, yourself?
MUSK: Yes. But we're -- transparency is what builds trust. Not simply somebody asserting trust. Not somebody saying they're trustworthy, but transparency, so you can see everything that's going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: All right. So just to be clear, we are not seeing everything that is going on. That is just not true.
But, I mean, there are some really straightforward questions for Elon Musk, including a lot of the institutions, the inspectors general that were investigating his companies, they're gone. They've been fired, they've been -- their offices disbanded. That in and of itself is a very straightforward conflict that exists right at this moment. He didn't acknowledge that.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not only that, but I mean USAID was investigating the funds that they gave Starlink when he was able to give satellite access. You had the FAA director was investigating Elon Musk as well. And if you want to talk about transparency, why not let us see his financial disclosures? I mean, the fact is the White House is hiding Elon Musk's financial disclosures, and we don't know whether or not he has a conflict or not.
And I think that most Democrats actually will say, we do not mind. It's what the American public wants when you're talking about getting rid of bureaucracy, trimming government, getting rid of fat. But the fact is he is taking a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel. He is amputating arms of government that are necessary. And this is literally -- no one knows what he's doing. No one can still answer me the question about what Elon Musk is doing in the Department of Treasury. No one's going to know what he's doing in public education at the Department of Education. But we do know one thing that he's doing, which is where he had a vendetta, where Tesla was fined, where Starlink had issues, where he was under investigation, those are the first companies to go.
NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR DIRECTOR: Here's what he can do with access to all the Treasury data and payments. He can make sure that people who are on blacklist, people who have been taking bribes or kickbacks, some of them potential business partners of his and friends of his from the past, that those people now can access of millions and millions of dollars of government contracts.
I think the transparency is all good and fine if you also have accountability. And that's where the challenge we're seeing, is where's the accountability for immediately halting programs and having taxpayer dollars wasted with millions of dollars of vaccines and medicines just sitting in ports in Africa going to waste?
PHILLIP: We learned tonight one thing about, you know, the issue at Treasury. So, this employee who was actually fired for a bunch of racist messages that he posted on X, it turns out, according to the government and court filings, he did have access to the Treasury payment system. He had read and write access. This is despite the countless denials that DOGE employees did not have that kind of access to the system. Now, they're doing a forensic audit to find out how that happened. But that's why the questions about real transparency, truly, who are these people, what are they authorized to do, what exactly are the programs that are being cut and why, and which ones are not being cut, we don't have the answers to any of those things.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A couple things, number one, you guys are way out over your skis with accusations and innuendo. You have no way -- I mean, what you're essentially alleging would be the biggest corruption in any of our lifetimes. You have no way in the world of making those accusations in a credible way, but yet you're out here doing it, number one.
Number two, on the Treasury Department --
PHILLIP: I just wanted to clarify because I also think you're accusing me of saying that these things are happening. I'm just saying --
JENNINGS: No, did you hear what they just said? They literally just accused Elon Musk of the biggest corruption we've ever seen.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Bakari. Scott, what I said was that Elon Musk's companies were being investigated by the government. The people investigating him have been fired. Their offices disbanded. Those are both facts. So, the question is, how do we know that Elon is not benefiting from it? And the answer is, we don't know.
SELLERS: But if you're going to accuse me of that, please, Scott, tell me what I said that was incorrect.
JENNINGS: You just said that Elon Musk is working at the behest of the president and what would amount to the biggest corruption scheme to enrich himself --
SELLERS: What did I've ever say that was incorrect?
JENNINGS: And I think you're out over your skis. I don't think he --
SELLERS: Was he under investigation by the FAA?
JENNINGS: I think you guys were over the line over this.
HAQ: Before you blanket you guys, I made it very clear, based on images and data and the transparency that we have, that USAID's resources that have been halted in place are resulting in massive waste.
JENNINGS: And why? Because Marco Rubio issued a waiver. He issued a waiver on the first day for all humanitarian and medicine. So, why aren't they delivering it?
HAQ: Right --
JENNINGS: Whose fault is it? He issued a waiver.
HAQ: We have staff that have been told not to go to work, thousands of people around the world. You have countries and NGOs that are laying off people because they don't know if the money is going to come. And so you have all of this taxpayer-funded medicine and research equipment and all of that, and food aid, literally going to waste.
PHILLIP: Yes. And I think you're right about that, Scott. Rubio has said that those, quote/unquote, life saving programs should be continued. However, what has not happened is that the Trump administration has never said explicitly which programs should continue.
[22:10:02]
So maybe that list exists? Hold on. No. Maybe that list of programs exists. Have you seen it?
JENNINGS: I think there is a lot of willful disobedience going on here over this. He has directly said, food, medicine, anything with food and medicine, if you have a program with food and medicine. How much more specific would you be? PEPFAR, malaria, things that go into famines.
EMILY AUSTIN, SPORTS HOST AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's selective framing. It's not that what you said was incorrect or what you said was incorrect. You're offering selective information. Like you said, what is Elon doing? What is he gaining from it? Why?
Let's take a step back and look at USAID and look at all of their failed projects. Yes, okay, he said they sent 50 million condoms to Gaza. He meant Gaza, Mozambique, or another country.
PHILLIP: We don't know if the number is 50 million, just to be clear.
AUSTIN: But the common denominator here -- but that's not the point. The point is that it's an outrageous amount of money. Let's assume for now it's given the benefit of the doubt.
PHILLIP: That's -- I don't think that's the amount of money.
AUSTIN: That's just one example. $9 million dollars from a Syrian national went to Al Qaeda. That was thanks to USAID. $200 million dollars went to concrete funding for Gaza was supposed to be, which we know went to Hamas tunnels now holding hostages of Israeli citizens. So, that was funded by our taxpaying dollars, USAID. Those were fact checked. Those are proven to be true.
Now, no one's denying that USAID has critical work and they do have life saving programs, which Marco Rubio has said to continue, but when something is failing so badly, and now it's coming out, you need to take a look back. And it's okay to reevaluate if this program is worth keeping, reforming, or canceling.
HAQ: So, I was part of an administration as a diplomat, working with USAID, as a senior adviser at the State Department, so I'm speaking from experience. This idea of folding USAID into state is not new. This was something discussed under Democratic regimes also. The idea being that you should have a policy focus on how your aid money is going, not a massive contracting vehicle with a lot of overhead.
This is not the way to execute on fixing the challenges that we've had with bureaucracy. More chaos does not mean efficiency and saving money.
JENNINGS: But you have to admit some of the things that have been identified, the programs, where the money has gone around the world, any reasonable person would look at it and say --
AUSTIN: It's money laundering for terrorists.
JENNINGS: -- this is objectively ridiculous. And it doesn't meet the foreign policy aims of this administration or our national interest.
SELLERS: Do we shut the entire thing down?
JENNINGS: And I don't think anybody has a problem. Truthfully, Bakari, I don't think many Americans would have a problem with saying, okay, we have money, lots of money going out the door. We need to identify what's going where. Is this helping us? Is this hurting us?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I think that's exactly what people would expect that would be happening, except that's not what's happening.
SELLERS: That's what I'm agreeing with him. But that's what I'm agreeing with Scott with. PHILLIP: What's happening is that the entire agency has been disbanded. They've emptied out the offices. They put all the employees on leave.
One other aspect of this --
JENNINGS: But not the foreign aid. The foreign aid can still go out.
PHILLIP: Bakari --
JENNINGS: It's because the bureaucracy is --
PHILLIP: Scott. Look, again, the secretary of state said, yes, those programs should continue. The question is, A, which programs? And do they know that? And why isn't the money going out? He's in charge now.
JENNINGS: He says it every day. Every interview he gets, he says it.
PHILLIP: He's in charge now. He should be making sure --
HAQ: It would be great to ask for a plan on how to execute the aid going out.
PHILLIP: One aspect of this is that the even Republicans, Senator Rand Paul, has basically said, this actually needs to come back to Congress. He said, DOGE is really doing good stuff, but, ultimately, that money is going to be sent back to us as a rescission package. I don't think they can just not spend. DOGE can't stop spending. They can stop stuff from happening. But if the money is sitting there, there is a question, is it impounded or isn't going to get sent back in a rescission package?
Basically, what he is saying is what we were talking about yesterday on the show, they can't just not spend the money because Congress has authorized it. And at some point, Congress elected people need to have --
SELLERS: But, I mean, if we're going to do this with some type of precision, if we're going to do this with some type of plan. I think that's what most Americans are asking for. Scott made a good point. If you want to go in and say this program is bad because it funds this, that's fine. What we are saying, though, is that they do good work. And one of the things that both of you all will agree with is that the soft power that's exuded by USAID, who was filling that gap around the world? We see these articles every day, that China is stepping up in that void where we used to be. That should terrify Americans.
JENNINGS: That didn't just start today, Bakari. That's been going on for years.
SELLERS: But it's going to accelerate now, though, Scott.
JENNINGS: And Rubio, the Secretary of State and the head of USAID, functionally now, has said, he supports soft power, he understands its use, he's been a supporter of it as a member of the U.S. Senate and it is going to continue, but not in the ridiculous way that it has been. I think that is perfectly fine with most Americans.
HAQ: I think we should see some rhetoric matching the reality of what the planning is right now.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
AUSTIN: Respectfully, I want to disagree with, you said Congress approved X amount of dollars going to a specific --
PHILLIP: That's not what I said. That's what Rand Paul said.
AUSTIN: Well, that's the truth. Congress approves a certain amount of money to these programs, assuming that they're doing the work they're supposed to be doing. So, when you find out that you do approve all of this money to go towards programs, let's say feeding starving children or helping sick people with their vaccines, and then you find out it's essentially being used as money laundering for terrorism, not all of it, but too much of it, why is it a problem in the interim to take a step back away from that?
[22:15:15]
PHILLIP: I mean, hold on one second.
AUSTIN: I know you're a diplomat, but as a taxpayer, that's outrageous.
PHILLIP: Listen nobody wants money to go to terrorism, but there's absolutely no question that the vast majority of money that is dispersed by USAID did not go to terrorism. And on top of that --
JENNINGS: How much is too much?
PHILLIP: But -- no, any -- a dollar is too much.
JENNINGS: Okay. Good. And we're finding them.
PHILLIP: A dollar is too much. But the idea that that is the majority of the spending is not true.
But, secondly, the cuts that are experienced by USAID right now, you can say whatever you want about it. It's a lot of things that, policy- wise, Trump and Elon don't like which is fine. The issue is they've got to go to Congress and say you need to get rid of this program because Congress authorized this spending. If they don't like the policy, just go to Congress and say, get rid of it. That's how this process is supposed to work.
AUSTIN: I also want to add only 43 percent of USAIDs Actual projects were deemed as a success, which means more than half of it is a failure.
SELLERS: By whom?
AUSTIN: I will find the statistic.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: We do have to go here. And, look, the point of this is not to spend a lot of time justifying everything that USAID is doing. The question is -- stop.
AUSTIN: I will send you the article. I'll tweet it. I'll put it publicly.
PHILLIP: Everyone stay with me. We'll resume the conversation another time.
Back to our breaking news, in just a few moments, President Trump is going to greet the American who just landed on U.S. soil after spending three years inside of a Russian prison. Stand by for that major moment when it unfolds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: We are moments away from President Trump greeting the American teacher who just touched down on U.S. soil after three years inside of a Russian prison. Stand by for that. We'll bring it to you as soon as it happens.
But, first, Trump's docket is growing. The president is now the defendant in dozens of cases challenging his legal authority to remake the law and life as he sees it. Elon Musk is Trump's instrument of destruction and he has some thoughts on that subject. Democracy in America is being destroyed by judicial coup. An activist judge is not a real judge. That's what he wrote on X. Trump also sounded a very similar tone today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: If a judge does block one of your policies, part of your agenda, will you abide by that ruling? Will you comply?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I always abide by the courts and then I'll have to appeal it. But then what he's done is he slowed down the momentum. And it gives crooked people more time to cover up the books. The answer is, I always abide by the courts, always abide by them. And we'll appeal. But appeals take a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Nick Akerman. He's a former assistant special Watergate prosecutor and a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. And, Nick, this is, in my view, and maybe you agree with me, how the system is supposed to work, and it seems like Trump gets it.
NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Well, he does, at least his statement, he gets it. But what he doesn't get is in the execution of it. That's why he's got so many lawsuits. I mean, he's basically out there taking over the Article 1 job of funding agencies. He's taking away programs and he's taking away what Congress has funded and essentially making himself the legislature and the executive. And that's why there are 12 lawsuits out there right now. I mean, he may talk the talk about appealing things, but he's taking it over the edge. What he's doing is unconstitutional.
PHILLIP: Well, they're testing the boundaries of what is --
AKERMAN: Well, it's not just the boundaries. He's just testing what is basic American law.
PHILLIP: Yes and civics and if you want to --
HAQ: Which only works --
PHILLIP: Tenth grade and took, you know, government class, this is what you learn.
HAQ: Yes. The whole system of checks and balances only works if people abide by it and believe in it. That's why we talk about rule of law in countries overseas and in many places it's a joke, right? Courts do things, and executives don't enforce it, and, you know, legislatures do whatever they feel like doing.
The courts don't have their own enforcement mechanism.
AKERMAN: Well, that's not necessarily true.
HAQ: Well, the U.S. Marshals, right, if the Supreme Court says something --
AKERMAN: No, if I wanted to get -- if I was a judge and I wanted to get somebody in my courtroom, I'd get a bench warrant out to them, I'd have the guy hauled in.
HAQ: But are you going to do that --
AKERMAN: Of course you would do that.
HAQ: -- to sitting cabinet members? I would -- are the federal judges appointed by Trump, are Supreme Court judges actually going to do that?
AKERMAN: Supreme Court judges don't do that. It's district court judges.
HAQ: These are the norms that are being tested, is my point.
AKERMAN: No, but it's district court judges who have the power to bring people in, get facts, and make a determination after they get all of the facts.
HAQ: And who's going to enforce the determination?
JENNINGS: Here's what I think is a joke, that you have these partisan hack Democrat attorney generals, they get together, and the only thing they know how to do is try to nullify the results of the last election by venue shopping these district court judges, they find the most lunatic liberals they can, they file lawsuits knowing full well they're going to try to usurp the president's authority, tie this up in court for years. I hope you're happy.
PHILLIP: Lunatic liberal judges like a George W. Bush appointee, like a Ronald Reagan appointee, like a Donald Trump appointee, like another Ronald Reagan appointee, like another George W. Bush appointee, all those lunatic liberal Republican appointees?
AKERMAN: Yes. And, look, what the Republicans do all the time.
JENNINGS: I hope you are happy with Donald Trump today, because you wanted last night, more than anything for him to say he'll abide by the courts and go through the appeals process.
[22:25:01]
I hope you're happy.
PHILLIP: That's literally the very first thing that I said.
JENNINGS: I'm a little unhappy, but I hope you're happy.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me just make this very plain. Donald Trump is is right. You appeal, you take it to the courts, you appeal the decision. Maybe you're mad about it. You're mad because it slows the process down, but you abide by the court decision. And, Scott, you should listen to Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: This is what they tried before, tying him up against the will of the election.
SELLERS: There are a couple of points I want to make, two points. The first is the bar is in hell for Donald Trump. The bar of expectation we have for the president of the United States is in hell, because all he did today was simply state that he was going to follow the rule of law, something that we should expect from everybody who puts their hand on it.
PHILLIP: But Scott said that he shouldn't do that.
SELLERS: But I'm just telling, everyone who was championing and cheering the fact that he said, I'm not going full Andrew Jackson should understand that this is something that everyone should do, Democrat or Republican, who's an elected official in this country, that's one.
Two, the fact that Scott and Elon Musk today just want to just set aside the rule of law or bastardize these, as you went down the list, I was going to go down the list, but these individuals who were appointed by Reagan, by Bush. But I'm not done yet. But that's 2 of 12. I'm not done yet.
The other thing is you accuse all of these individuals, these attorney generals, like Aaron Ford, right? You accuse the attorney general, like not Josh Stein, but Jeff Jackson in North Carolina, who are actually fighting for their constituents. But I didn't hear you say those things when the Mississippi attorney general, Alan Wilson in South Carolina, we're doing everything they can to stop things like student loan forgiveness, et cetera, day in and day out when Joe Biden was president of the United States.
And what they're doing, making sure that, you know, we don't -- we know if Elon Musk has access to your personal information at Treasury, that is --
JENNINGS: You're obsessed with this.
SLLERS: I'm not obsessed. I just want to know what the hell he is doing.
AKERMAN: The actual issue is here. The real issue is that Donald Trump has gone in there and decided that he was going to violate the Constitution. He goes in and makes a ridiculous argument about the 14th Amendment, that obviously if you're born in the United States, unless you're born to a diplomat, you are a U.S. citizen, that is the law, it's been the law, but yet he's fighting this in court So, he's taken on something that's totally absurd.
Then he goes on and he gets rid of USAID, which is a total -- it's been in existence since 1960. President Kennedy put it in, every president, including George W. Bush, used it to save 25 million people in Africa from AIDS, and you just can't abolish it. I learned this when I was 11 years old. There's a Congress that has the power of the purse. There's a Congress --
JENNINGS: The government only ever gets bigger, it never gets smaller. Is that the idea?
AKERMAN: No, it gets smaller and it gets bigger.
PHILLIP: That's just a fact.
AUSTIN: No. What's the point of the election if all they're going to do is try to disrupt, break the momentum of every single thing that we voted for him to do? Let's be honest with ourselves, we'd be lying to all of our viewers if we are going to sit here and pretend that a lot of these judges are opening cases on the silliest things from Trump deciding to take, you know, a sex change page off the website, or they're trying to block the Treasury's access to data, or the silliest things just to break up momentum.
AKERMAN: There's nothing silly about blocking that data. That data is absolutely sacred. I mean, you do you know how important it is --
AUSTIN: To the government?
AKERMAN: Yes, to the government and to every American citizen who's got their information in there, Social Security numbers, their tax numbers. That stuff is sacrosanct. And you've got people going in there who don't know anything about the data systems. (CROSSTALKS)
AKERMAN: He knows nothing about this.
SELLERS: They're asking for more information.
PHILLIP: Guys, one second, one a time, please.
SELLERS: They can litigate this in court. See, that's what I'm saying. This is the process. They're not saying that this is done forever. These are --
AUSTIN: It's not a process. It's a personal vendetta.
SELLERS: No, it's a process. It's called the rule of law. It's called the judiciary system.
JENNINGS: Can I respond to Nick? You know, it strikes me that what you just said is so profound. You said these people don't know anything and they don't know what they're doing.
AKERMAN: That's right.
JENNINGS: But they're appointees.
AKERMAN: I'm talking about Elon Musk.
JENNINGS: I understand. But they are appointees of the duly elected president. So, your view, you're here as our legal expert, but your view is because you don't personally believe they know enough that the duly elected president who appointed a Treasury secretary and who appoints special appointees, like Elon Musk, shouldn't be able to act as the president because you don't personally believe they know enough? Is that how it works? Or do elections mean anything to you?
AKERMAN: Well, it's got nothing to do with elections.
AUSTIN: Of course it does. He's doing exactly what we told him to do.
JENNINGS: The truth was told tonight.
PHILLIP: Guys, hold on one second. I really want us to speak one at a time. Nick, you can respond.
AKERMAN: Yes. I mean, look, data is a whole different thing. Elon Musk is going in with young kids who know nothing about the system. They're not using the people that have actually been there for years upon years, know how the system works. If you go in there and you start copying things, you can basically destroy what's there. They're not -- the problem is people are concerned.
[22:30:01]
PHILLIP: All right. Guys, we're going to listen in. We're watching the White House now as President Trump is about to greet American Mark Fogel, who has just landed from being detained in Russia. Fogel. Marc Fogel.
(LIVE COVERAGE BEGINS)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Thank you, very much.
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, (inaudible) is coming home tomorrow.
TRUMP: Somebody else very special. Very special.
UNKNOWN: (inaudible)
TRUMP: Very good. Very, very good.
UNKNOWN: (inaudible)
TRUMP: We're going to announce it tomorrow. Very (inaudible)
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, why did you not (inaudible)
TRUMP: To save the government a lot of money.
UNKNOWN: (inaudible)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: (inaudible)
MARC FOGEL, AMERICAN SCHOOL TEACHER WRONGFULLY DRETAINED IN RUSSIA: (inaudible) old mother.
TRUMP: (inaudible)
FOGEL: It's very good for both to articulate (ph) -- (inaudible) -- and what you've done, bringing me back to my country.
TRUMP: (inaudible)
FOGEL: She's -- she's all right. I'm thankful to you.
TRUMP: Thank you, very much.
UNKNOWN: I know.
UNKNOWN: Hey, good to see you.
UNKNOWN: I don't know where it is but it's great (inaudible)
PHILLIP (voice-over): You're watching the White House right there. President Trump greeting Marc Fogel, who has just landed in the United States after being detained for three years in a Russian prison. The two greeted each other right outside of the White House. The South Lawn is where they are. He said he could not articulate how proud he was of President Trump. He said he is in awe.
President Trump himself also answered a couple of quick questions from reporters as it pertains to this really incredible moment that you are witnessing right now. One of them was about what kind of exchange might be happening between Russia. The President said it was very fair.
President Trump -- I was just listening there to see if he said anything. They're going to head into the White House, into the diplomatic -- the diplomatic reception room, where we will hear more from him there.
Jeff Zeleny is at the White House right now for us. Jeff, an extraordinary moment that just unfolded there. Marc Fogel draped in an American flag coming toward the President of the United States after spending many years in Russia not knowing, perhaps not even thinking that he would be released anytime soon.
[22:35:06]
And as you've pointed out, this has been a moment long in the making.
ZELENY (voice-over): Abby, there is no doubt what a day he has had. Marc Fogel, of course, a 63-year-old Pennsylvania school teacher. You see a few members of the Pennsylvania delegation there, Speaker Mike Johnson, as well. But when he walked toward President Trump, you could see the gratitude there.
Now, as they're walking into the diplomatic reception room, this is where the President of the United States greets heads of state and every high-level dignitary who comes to the White House. And indeed tonight, Marc Fogel is one of those, wearing the same clothes that American flag draped over him. The look of gratitude and joy.
And his mother. His mother started this with a conversation with Donald Trump last summer at a campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania. I'm told she'd grown frustrated by the Biden administration. Marc Fogel was not part of some of the prisoner exchanges that happened during the Biden administration. These are always very delicate, as you know. And just watching the President right here walk in with Mark Fogel, it is quite a moment. And let's listen right now, Abby.
PHILLIP: Let's listen in.
TRUMP: He's a very happy guy tonight. It's just a real honor. An honor to have you at the White House.
FOGEL: I feel like the luckiest man on earth right now and I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero. These men that came from the diplomatic service are heroes. The senators and representatives that passed legislation in my honor to get me home are the heroes. I am in awe of what they all did. My family has been a force.
TRUMP: That's true.
FOGEL: I think my 95-year-old mother is probably the most dynamic 95- year-old on Earth right now. And I am so indebted to so many people. I think I remember a Churchill quote that he said when the RAF was fighting the Luftwaffe and he said that, "Never have so many owed so much to so few."
And I put myself fortunately and unfortunately into that category and I said never has one owed so much to so many that this super organism of people that came to my support and the love that I was given sustained -- sustained me for three and a half years in a prison that had me in hospitals for more than 100 days. I was given more than 400 injections in that time.
And knowing I had the support of my fellow Pennsylvanians, my family, my friends, it was so overwhelming that it brought me to my knees and it brought me to tears, but it was, it was my energy, it was my being that kept me going that whole time. And I will forever be indebted to President Trump, to Steve over there, what a dynamic man this guy is. And --
TRUMP: That's true.
(APPLAUSE)
FOGEL: When I met him, the energy, the can-do attitude just exudes from his body. And when he smiled at me and introduced me and I got the feel for what has happened, you know, it's not just me, it's everybody. And Secretary Rubio, who met my son a while back, I'm a middle-class school teacher who's now in a dream world.
TRUMP: We're going to show you the Lincoln bedroom. It's a very special, special place. Appropriate for tonight. Very appropriate.
[22:40:00]
FOGEL: And thank you all. And I love our country. And I'm so happy to be back here. And I wish I could articulate it better.
TRUMP: You've done beautifully. And he's got a great mother. And when I saw the mother at a rally, she said, if you win, will you get my son out? And I promised. She's 95-years-old. And I said, we'll get him out. And we got him out pretty quickly.
FOGEL: She told me that exact words.
TRUMP: I remember her. She made quite an impression.
FOGEL: And you also did. And I'm in awe of what you've done.
TRUMP: Thank you.
FOGEL: And your team.
TRUMP: It's great to have you back. And have a great life.
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, did you speak directly to President Putin about what --
TRUMP: Well, I don't want to say that. I just want to say that I appreciate very much what they did in letting Marc go home. And I appreciate Steve Witkoff, the job he did and Marco behind the scenes was unbelievable. And so many of these people were unbelievable.
They represent him, they're from his area and we just wanted to get him back home. I had to get him back home because I would have big trouble with his mother and we're going to take him for a little tour of the Lincoln bedroom which nobody gets to see and it's very special. Do you want to see it?
FOGEL: I would love to. And I also should make mention that President Putin was very generous and statesmanlike in granting me --
TRUMP: That's true.
FOGEL: -- a pardon. I mean --
UNKNOWN: What were the terms of this deal, Mr. President?
TRUMP: Very fair. Very, very fair. Very reasonable. Not like deals you've seen over the years. They were very fair. And I think that's going to lead. And somebody else is being released tomorrow that you will know of. But we wanted to get this done, very important. And Steve wanted to actually fly over and get Marc and get him home properly, because it could be a pretty tough trip.
UNKNOWN: So, is this the beginning of a deal, Sir? Is this the start of a deal?
TRUMP: I think there's goodwill in terms of the war. You know, a million and a half soldiers, young people have been killed.
FOGEL: I've met many of them.
TRUMP: Yeah, and it's a terrible thing going on, so we want to get that done. I think -- I think this could be the very important element. You could be a big part of it, actually, because it could be a big important part of getting the war over with Ukraine. And we appreciate President Putin's -- what he did. He was able to pull it off for you, right? He was able to pull it off.
FOGEL: Yeah.
TRUMP: We think, and you're here. So, it was great. We'll tell you a little bit more about it tomorrow. But I think we've made great progress. Progress on the war also. Getting the war -- I want to get the war ended. That war should not have been. It would have never happened if I was president. It would not have happened, and it did happen.
And now you have all blown up cities and dead people. So many dead people. Should have never, ever happened. And you could be a big catalyst for just this evening. It's a very important evening for ending that war. And I think they all want to see it ended.
UNKNOWN: Does that mean you gave all those assertions about Ukraine?
UNKNOWN: How does it change your perspective on Putin and your attitude? TRUMP: Well, I don't want to get into that. I only can say this. We
got a man home whose mother and family wanted him desperately, whose state wanted him. He's become a big symbol. And it's an honor to have played a small role in that. And I just, I want to tell you, these people, they all played a role and we got him home and he's healthy. He looks good actually. To me, you look damn good, I'll tell you that.
FOGEL: I think what -- expectations are low. Maybe that helps a little bit.
TRUMP: You know, the plunk, right?
UNKNOWN: Can you tell us about the conditions of the prison that you were in, Sir?
FOGEL: You know, I think I need a little bit of time to sort of digest all of that. There were times when it was extremely trying. There were times when I could manage it. But I think I need some more time to, you know, process it.
TRUMP: You know, it wasn't easy, right? It wasn't easy.
FOGEL: Every second, every minute, every day had a challenge.
TRUMP: But you're in good shape. I mean, compare that to what we saw two days ago come home. They were very, very ill. Those people are very ill. They were treated really badly.
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, your predecessor left you almost $4 billion in unused aid for Ukraine -- to Ukraine. Are you going to use those money? Are you going to send the weapons to Ukraine?
TRUMP: I wouldn't see, but my predecessor should have had this gentleman out a long time ago. You know, we did it in two and a half weeks. He had four years to do it. He should have had Marc out a lot earlier. It's a shame. It's a shame.
[22:45:00]
He should have never had the war to start off with. Should have never had. That war would have never happened if I was President. But he should have had him back three and a half years ago. So it was too bad, but he didn't do it. But we did it. Thank you all very much. Thank you very much.
UNKNOWN: Mr. President Trump, reciprocal tariffs will come in tomorrow or --
(LIVE COVERAGE ENDS)
PHILLIP: All right, that was President Trump at the White House. He just spoke alongside Marc Fogel, who after three years of being in a Russian prison, he was sentenced to 14 years of hard labor in Russia, is now back home in the United States.
Jeff Zeleny is over at the White House for us. Jeff, I want you to just tell us a little bit about a key aspect of this. The President sent Steve Witkoff over to Russia -- to Moscow to make this deal happen. He was there with the President the president tonight. Tell us about the significance of that and what they were able to accomplish in getting Marc Fogel home.
ZELENY: Abby, that is significant. And on this frigid, snow-covered February night in Washington, there is a sense of a thaw in U.S.- Russian relations. The President said there is goodwill between the U.S. and Russia. And Steve Witkoff, who you see right there on screen, in the camel-colored jacket. He is the President's Middle East envoy, a long-time friend of President Trump's from the 1980s.
He was actually with him the day of his second assassination attempt in Florida, a very close friend. He flew to Moscow on a secret mission, and the mission was to release Marc Fogel. So, this is someone who has the gravitas. And you heard Marc Fogel there talk about the energy he said that exuded from Steve Witkoff once he saw him and brought him home.
But let's focus on Marc Fogel for one second -- sixty-three-year-old Pennsylvanian. He said, I am a middle-class school teacher who's now living in a dream world. And these words, "No one has owed so much to so many." And I thought that was so poignant there as he gave his thanks to the President, to members of the delegation, to Secretary Rubio and to Steve Witkoff.
But Abby, the bigger picture here perhaps is there is a new moment here in U.S.-Russian relations. This is the first time a U.S. official has flown to Moscow, as far as we know, since the beginning of the Ukraine invasion.
So, this is something that is marking a new moment in a diplomatic relations here. The President not wanting to talk too much about Vladimir Putin, but Marc Fogel did. He thanked him for granting him, in his words, a pardon.
PHILLIP: Yeah, and you know, Jeff, we've covered several of these returns home of --
PHILLIP: -- people who were wrongfully detained. And I just want to just show -- tell people. It is very unusual to hear from those individuals just moments after they come back home.
ZELENY: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Marc Fogel likely has not even heard English much over the last three years. He's been in a remote part of Russia. Usually they are taken directly to a military base so that they have an opportunity to be debriefed, so they have an opportunity to get psychological care, to get physical care.
But to see him standing there at the White House, the President said he looks damn good. He's -- Marc Fogel responded by saying, you know, it's kind of relative, and it is very much so. He was beaming from ear to ear, because this is truly an extraordinary moment for him and for his family and for the United States of America that constantly, unfortunately, has to try to get Americans home who are being used, frankly, as political pawns in these geopolitical situations, Jeff.
ZELENY: There's no question about it, and there has been, since the Ukraine invasion, there has been a bit of a hold up here on these prisoner exchanges. The President there is saying there will be one tomorrow, and that's what Secretary Rubio said earlier on CNN. So we do not know who that is but one more release tomorrow.
And this clearly was a moment that is also just a replete with stagecraft. And this is something that the President -- he wanted this homecoming to be just like this. You're absolutely right. Often, when we see prisoners return to the U.S., they are flown immediately to a military base, not this time.
President Trump said we are going to see the Lincoln bedroom. So, Abby, they're likely in the White House right here behind me on this snowy night. What a day. What a day for Marc Fogel.
PHILLIP: What a day for Marc Fogel. What a very long three years. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much for that reporting.
ZELENY: Sure.
PHILLIP: I'm going to bring it back in this room. This is also a pivotal moment for, as Jeff has been talking about, Russia-U.S. relations.
[22:50:01]
One of the biggest questions here is what did Russia get? Now, I'm just going to fill you in and also our audience what we've learned over the last couple of hours, you heard the president there saying it was fair.
We also heard his envoy for hostage affairs, Adam Bowler, earlier tonight with Kaitlan Collins saying it may not be a one-to-one exchange. It may not be anyone at all. There's no way Putin is not going to get anything out of this deal. He wants something.
JENNINGS: Yeah, I'm sure there was an exchange. I look forward to hearing the details. And I hope President Trump is right that this leads to a further set of conversations about how to bring peace to the region.
I mean, what an amazing and emotional thing to hear this guy describe his feelings as he goes into the White House. He described Donald Trump as a hero. This is a great day for all Americans. It's a great day for the Trump administration.
And it may just be the beginning of the end of this hostility over there that has killed so many people. So, if that's what this all results in, I'm sure that whatever the exchange was, we may judge as being a good thing if it leads to some peace and a place where people have had none.
AUSTIN: And I do really hope that, excuse me --
SELLERS: No.
AUSTIN: That this deal is better than the Brittney Griner deal because that, in my opinion, was absolutely disastrous. But whatever it takes to get Americans home. Looking at the bigger picture, just as an American citizen, it's so nice to feel seen by your President. Like, I travel to a lot of countries and I go to safer places than Russia, for sure. But it's nice to know you have a President who cares about you.
I didn't even know that we had seven Americans that were being held hostage in Venezuela until Trump brought them home because there was no media outrage, like there was with Brittney Griner, for example. So now, seeing that he actually cares for the people, and now seeing the Americans come home and finally appreciate the beauty and privilege of living in this country. It's a really beautiful thing.
SELLERS: I mean, I --
PHILLIP: There were many prisoners, detained Americans who were brought home under President Biden. And frankly, this --
AUSTIN: I didn't say there weren't.
PHILLIP: I covered Trump, I covered Biden. They are working constantly. The people in that hostage affairs office, they are salt of the Earth, non-partisan individuals. They are fighting every single day to bring people home and that was happening under Biden, too.
AUSTIN: Yeah, but you can't deny that Trump just has a different aura on doing so.
SELLERS: Yeah, you can't actually deny it and I actually take a good bit of offense to the Brittney Griner references. I want to back up just a little bit and simply say that today's a good day and I'm glad that he's brought home.
And the reason I'm glad he's brought home is because I place that inherent value in each American the benefit of humanity whether or not they are this gentleman or Paul Whelan or Trevor Reed or her name is Brittney Griner.
And so, I think we have to give everyone that same value and to -- to castigate. Well, for some reason make the public believe that Brittney Griner should still be in Russia --
AUSTIN: I didn't say that.
SELLERS: -- doing that hard labor and those menial tasks and sleeping on those floors. When she, too, is an American. I just have a fundamental problem with it. And I think that today, instead of picking a part, and I don't even know what the deal was, but I will -- I will venture out and say that the price of an American soul, someone to come home and be with their 95-year-old mother, I think is worth the value.
So, Donald Trump and Steve Witkoff, they get that respect from me tonight as they should from every American. But the difference, though, is that you should be able to formulate an opinion that says the same thing when Joe Biden went out and got Paul Whelan, when he got Evan Gershkovich, when he got Trevor Reed, when he got Brittney Griner, because everybody deserves the benefit of their humanity.
AUSTIN: I mean, all I said was I hope the deal was not giving a convicted arms dealer back to Russia.
PHILLIP: One last thing on this issue, because I think on the Ukraine front, we should just be prepared for what's coming. The President sent Scott Bessent, his Treasury secretary, to Ukraine. He said in an interview over the weekend that maybe, Ukraine might be a part of Russia, maybe they won't. He seemed to suggest the United States wanted payments from Ukraine in exchange for what the United States has given them. What do you think this all foretells about where this could be headed?
HAQ: Listen, President Trump, on the campaign, made it very clear he wants to see an end to the war and he wanted to see a peace deal. The challenge with that is when Russia invaded Ukraine and started this war to suggest a peace deal means that Ukraine has to give something up when truly, the answer to this whole problem is Russia should just leave Ukraine alone.
PHILLIP: But Ukraine will likely have to give something up. The question is how much?
HAQ: And this is - this is what ends up being the win, right? This is a win for the idea that if you are big and powerful enough, you can roll into another country and take pieces of it. And frankly, we are hearing similar rhetoric from the United States right now about the 51st state of Canada, about, you know, taking back the Panama Canal and Greenland. So, it is all part of a narrative of might is right.
PHILLIP: So, Rula Jebreal is with us right now. I want to talk about the other major story that's unfolding this week in the Middle East when it comes to Gaza. President Trump, again, today, suggested that the United States would have ownership over Gaza and he said it when he was sitting next to the King of Jordan. So, how is that being interpreted?
[22:55:00]
RULA JEBREAL, PALESTINAN FOREIGN POLICY COMMENTATOR: I mean, I think the Arab League convened immediately a summit and they immediately rejected en masse the whole idea. He cannot own Gaza because it's not his. Plus, you know, Gazans' and Palestinians' right to return and live in their own country is enshrined in international law.
What President Biden seem -- sorry, President Trump seem not to understand, the international law is not option. And it's not an option for Putin or for him. And the worst thing that he is now threatening to withhold aid from two major allies, Jordan and Egypt --
PHILLIP: Although he did walk that back, I was just going to ask you. I mean, today he suggested, okay, maybe we won't do that. We won't have to go that far. JEBREAL: Because he understood it's about -- it's not a charity. This
is what he didn't understand before, and he understood it today, when the king of Jordan explained to him this was about a peace and security deal that these two allies actually signed with the United States, and they were the first actually to normalize relationship with Israel.
The first, actually, to stand up with the Iranians send the missile in April, who stood up to that and basically shut down the missile. It was Jordan because of that peace deal. If we decide that peace deal is null and void, all hell can break truly and turn loose and you will find yourself in a war with 400 million people in an entire region that today reject that proposition. Not only because it's illegal, but because simply this is the same argument and the same issue that triggered all of this conflict for the last 75 years.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean this is not the first time, actually --
JEBREAL: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- that this has been put on the table and the first time it was pretty disastrous what occurred afterwards.
JENNINGS: Yeah, a couple things. Number one, the reason we're here with this hostage situation this weekend is because Hamas decided to stop participating in the deal that was brokered as Donald Trump was coming into office.
JEBREAL: That's not accurate. Actually, the Israeli newspapers today --
JENNINGS: OK.
JEBREAL: -- says that Israel violated the ceasefire.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
JENNINGS: I know what your position is.
PHILLIP: Emily, Emily, hold on.
JEBREAL: It's not my position. It's the Israeli newspaper and "The New York Times" and Israeli politicians --
JENNINGS: But our ally -- but our ally is Israel and you can't trust Hamas.
JEBREAL: But they -- our allies violated the ceasefire.
JENNINGS: The reason we're here --
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on.
JENNINGS: Who started it in the beginning? Who started in the first place?
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me just --
JEBREAL: Israel violated the ceasefire, killed 100 Palestinians during the ceasefire.
JENNINGS: We're here because Hamas kidnapped, raped and murdered. And now they're violating this deal, which wasn't even a great deal to begin with. It did get a few people back, which I'm sure is the best of what we're going to see.
And so, what Donald Trump is trying to do right now is get this thing moving again because these people need to come back. That's number one. Number two, I think he just wants the other states in the Middle East to do something.
JEBREAL: They already offered him to do something.
JENNINGS: And to take ownership of some people here. To take ownership of -- take responsibility for their own region and I hope they do.
UNKNOWN: Well, I want to say something -- responsibility for the region.
JEBREAL: There's the only one that actually put the proposition on the table four times and this is where it's honestly, you don't know what you're talking about and I'm sorry to say President Trump doesn't know what to say.
JENNINGS: No, I think I do. I'm sorry that you and I disagree but I have a position and it's valid.
JEBREAL: There's an error. There is an Arab peace initiative that is already on the table. The Arab peace initiative was put in 2002, 2007, 2017, and 2024. Fifty-seven Arab and Muslim countries together told the world and the United Nations this year again for the fourth time they are willing to guarantee Israel's security.
They are willing to reconstruct and rebuild Gaza and pay for it. They are willing, also, basically, to normalize all of them together with Israel on one condition -- end the military occupation that's been lasting for 58 years.
PHILLIP: All right, Rula. Go ahead.
HAQ: As I say, the irony, of course, of all of this is that President Trump probably thinks he owns or can develop Gaza because one, he does look at things as real estate deals and two, part of why Gaza has been leveled is because of the United States' supply -- continued supply of military weapons to its ally Israel. So, I can see how he would, at a very basic level, make that connection. It's something that Jared Kushner did about the West Bank and the first Trump administration.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
AUSTIN: I just want to remind you that the 400 million Arabs you're talking about surrounding the Palestinian territory have not done anything the last 494 days to ensure any safety of Palestinians. They've in fact shut their borders down, refused to take in any refugees. It is until today --
JEBREAL: I'm so sorry --
HAQ: -- until King Abdullah today said, we'll take 2000 children basically doing Trump a favor.
JEBREAL: That's not true.
AUSTIN: Trump has to light that fire under them. No, it's absolutely true.
JEBREAL: You know --
AUSTIN: I've been to -- nobody has been helping in developing a true state solution.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
AUSTIN: Well, then they failed.
JEBREAL: There are many Palestinians, basically in Jordan, in Qatar, in Jordan, and in Egypt.
AUSTIN: Great-filled Palestinians.
JEBREAL: OK. OK.
AUSTIN: Egypt had Gaza, they didn't give them Palestinian aid.
JEBREAL: I'm so sorry.
PHILLIP: Emily, just a second.
JEBREAL: You have to basically --
PHILLIP: Emily and Rula, just a second, because we can't hear you, and we have one more minute left in the show. So, Rula, please respond quickly and then we'll call it a day.
JEBREAL: The Arab Peace Initiative, I think the best thing we can achieve. They're telling you they're willing to pay to guarantee Israel's security and basically also to solve this conflict that's been the driver of all violence in the Middle East and in the region.
[23:00:00]
AUSTIN: So who's eradicating Hamas in a deal?
JEBREAL: They're willing to take over Gaza, basically rebuild it for the Palestinians in the next three years.
AUSTIN: For Hamas. Until Hamas is there, there's no --
JEBREAL: There are two million Palestinians.
AUSTIN: But Hamas is ruining them. PHILLIP: All right. We're going to have to leave it there, Emily and
Rula.
JEBREAL: According to his rule, there's only 20,000.
PHILLIP: We're going to have to leave it there because we're not going to solve the Middle East peace at this table tonight. Emily, please. Rula, thank you very much. Everyone, thank you for joining us. An important programming note, tomorrow morning, Steve Witkoff is going to join "CNN News Central" with a live interview. Thank you very much for watching. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
