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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
U.S. Distances Itself from Ukraine as Trump Invites Putin; Reporter Barred from Oval Over Gulf of America Clash; FCC Opens Probe into Comcast to Root Out DEI Programs. Employee and Union Sources Say Mass Firings Have Begun at Federal Agencies; Pam Bondi Sues New York Over Sanctuary City Policies. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 12, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, while Donald Trump continues throwing people out of the country, an American foe gets welcomed in.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: In fact, we expect he'll come here and I'll go there.
PHILLIP: Plus, inflation suddenly runs hot. And the man in charge declares it wasn't me.
Also, do as we say or be left in the wake.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America.
PHILLIP: The slippery slope of payback for the press.
And a holy war of words between MAGA and the Pope.
TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: I wish you'd stick to the Catholic Church and fix that.
PHILLIP: Fire and brimstone warnings from inside the Vatican.
Live at the Table, Scott Jennings, Ana Navarro, Jamal Simmons, Emily Austin, and Sarah Matthews.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. The U.S. wants out of the Ukraine business tonight, the clearest direction yet for the fate of Russia's invasion and how America sees the world. President Trump says he chatted with Vladimir Putin in what he called the start of peace negotiations. Trump even invited the Russian autocrat to visit the United States.
Now, remember, U.S. missiles are currently being used by Ukraine in its war against Russia. But what is notable about this call is who came second, not first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We had a great call, and it lasted for a long time, over an hour, this morning. I also had with President Zelenskyy a very good call after that. And I think we're on the way to getting peace. I think President Putin wants peace and President Zelenskyy wants peace, and I want peace. I just want to see people stop getting killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The chats come on the same day that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth delivered some very blunt words for Ukraine, distancing the United States from its future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective. The United States does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement. Instead, any security guarantee must be backed by capable European and non-European troops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Stanislav Kucher. He is the editor in chief of Samizdat Online and a former Russian T.V. presenter.
Stanislav, so tell us what is Putin getting out of this? He has thrown the United States, Donald Trump, a bone in releasing the American who was detained in Russia, Marc Fogel, and now today you have Pete Hegseth declaring pretty definitively Ukraine's not going to go back to what it was before 2014. So, what else is Russia getting out of this?
STANISLAV KUCHER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, SAMIZDAT ONLINE: Well, first and foremost, Putin is gaining a tactical and a moral victory in the eyes of millions of his compatriots, because basically he started the full scale invasion back in 2022 just for this sole purpose, to make the west take him back at this table at as an equal partner and this what he believes needs to be a multi-polar world, not as an outcast, not as an outsider, a criminal, but as an equal partner.
PHILLIP: He wants to be in the club.
KUCHER: He wants to be in the club, obviously. And second thing, and this is a, quote, from one of the comments on the Russian internet, is Putin is the alpha male again. The role he kind of had lost to Trump in the past few weeks, when, remember, Trump would say Putin is destroying Russia, we need peace, et cetera, et cetera. And Russians, you know, they feel this strength.
And now That Trump spoke with Putin for an hour-and-a-half and the way how he described the conversation, the way how he addressed Putin, kind of praising him.
[22:05:04]
PHILLIP: Yes.
KUCHER: This obviously made him --
PHILLIP: Let me actually play some of this, because it's not just Donald Trump, it's also Steve Witkoff, his envoy to the Middle East actually, who brokered this prisoner exchange. Listen to what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We appreciate President Putin's -- what he did. He was able to pull it off for you, right? He was able to pull it off, we think, and you're here.
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: The Russians were very helpful in that effort and very accommodating. And I think that's maybe a sign about how that working relationship between President Trump and President Putin will be in the future and what that may portend for the world at large for conflict and so forth. I think they had a great friendship, and I think now it's going to continue, and it's a really good thing for the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, I say this with no judgment, actually, whatsoever, but this is a change in posture. The United States, it seems like, under Trump, is basically saying, we're not going to deal with good guy, bad guy. He's got something, we get something, and that's how we're going to deal with Putin, and, frankly, the rest of the world.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think he's dealing with the mess that was left in his lap. I mean, this war started under his predecessor. I think Biden's rather slow reaction to it every step of the way led to the stalemate that we are currently in. That's number one. Number two, I think Trump and Hegseth are both dealing in realism today. You can't go on forever. The killing has to stop.
And the United States and the political will in the United States to fund this forever has effectively run out. And so he talked to them both. Everybody seems to want a deal. This hostage, Fogel, coming home, seems to have been the catalyst for some conversations. But at the end of the day, Trump inherited a mess, and now he's trying to clean it up. And is it going to be a perfect solution for everybody involved? No. Do I feel a little squeamish about Russia feeling rewarded or somehow emboldened by this? Yes. But if we stop the killing and we bring peace to these people who've had none for months, and there's some stability in a region that has been wild and unstable, isn't that what we're aiming for here?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Scott, it might be a mess, but it's amazing to me that you put the mess on Joe Biden --
JENNINGS: Yes, he was slow.
SIMMONS: -- and not on Vladimir Putin. Joe Biden didn't invade anybody.
JENNINGS: No, but he was slow. And the chance to push him back was at the beginning, and he was slow.
SIMMONS: Because Vladimir Putin that invaded Ukraine. And it was Vladimir Putin that put Europe at risk. It was Vladimir Putin who's threatening NATO. So, the president of the United States is trying to assemble a coalition because America is best when it has allies and friends when it goes into battle. I don't know where you are, but where I grew up, it was always better to be in a fight with your friends by your side than by yourself.
So, when the president goes into Ukraine, when the president goes into Ukraine to try to help Ukraine, they bring everybody there to do it. This takes time. They knew it when they started.
The question is now, is America going to hold fast against Russia, or is America going to fall?
JENNINGS: How much you want to spend?
SIMMONS: And that is the question. What's it worth not to have American troops on the ground in Finland trying to defend a NATO ally when Putin keeps coming?
PHILLIP: Because that is actually ultimately what this is about. It's a little bit about Ukraine, but it's mostly about what else Putin wants. And if he can take Ukraine effectively, why would he not take --
(CROSSTALKS)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A lot of this is about Donald Trump, and I actually disagree with you that this is a change of posture. I think people who voted for Donald Trump knew that this is what they were going to get. He has been telegraphing this all along. He's been telegraphing this since his first term, you know?
And I think Donald Trump sees himself in some ways, or wants to be, Teddy Roosevelt, when he's talking against Panama, or talking about Canada being the 51st state, or talking about Greenland. And then he wants to be Ronald Reagan and the glass nose moment with Gorbachev, you know, having that be part of his legacy.
And I think -- I'm glad to hear you say that you feel squeamish, because I remember Zelenskyy walking into every room in the United States and getting standing ovations and people crying and people saluting his ambassador here. And I think those people, those Ukrainians who we told over and over again that we had their back --
JENNINGS: We did, we have.
NAVARRO: Are feeling incredibly abandoned today.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: I agree with Scott's point that people want to see an end to this war. We don't need the needless killings. But where my issue was the negotiating tactics here, why would Pete Hegseth go out there and say on the world stage, oh, yes, we're not going to have Ukraine join NATO, oh, yes, they're not going to get back to their original territory? Why would we already give up those bargaining chips before negotiations have even begun?
I agree, they're probably not going to get a perfect solution, but why would we already show our hand and reward Vladimir Putin for invading a sovereign nation? That just seems like bad diplomacy on my part. I don't think that I agree with the way that he's going about it and handling it, because I think that we need to be negotiating from a position of strength, and that seems pretty weak to already be folding and giving Putin exactly what he wants.
[22:10:03]
PHILLIP: When it comes to Ukraine, Trump is kind of sidelining them a bit. I mean, listen to this question that he got at the White House about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you view Ukraine as an equal member of this peace process?
TRUMP: It's an interesting question. I think they have to make peace. Their people are being killed and I think they have to make peace. I said that was not a good war to go into, and I think they have to make peace. That's what I think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Again, Ukraine did not start this war. Trump seems repeatedly confused about this fact, but that is music to Vladimir Putin's ears.
KUCHER: Well, you see, it's pretty obvious, actually, why Putin wants Ukraine to be left out of these negotiations. And it's pretty obvious why Trump does not really mention Ukraine, because he knows, because that's exactly what Putin wants. And the most important thing is that it's an existential fight between the United States and Vladimir Putin. And so both Trump and Putin know that it's not about Ukraine. It's, again, about Putin being a member of this club, what we started with.
But what matters right now, I think, is and probably some one of you knows is the terms of the current negotiation. I mean, what are the terms? Is -- how do we know if Trump is forfeiting Ukraine is capitulating or not? What concessions is Putin making? Do you know anything about that at all?
PHILLIP: Yes. Well, I think that's a good question. I mean, what concessions is Putin making? I mean, is he making -- do you think that in this way, do we think that Putin is giving anything up if Pete Hegseth from the onset is saying, you get to keep what you've taken?
NAVARRO: Well, he gave Fogel, right? That made everybody a good feeling last night, and it was obviously incredibly orchestrated, so that Fogel would come and then this conversation would happen today.
PHILLIP: This is -- look I understand that when you get your person back, you don't want to poke the person who gave you your, you know, person back in the eye. But at the same time, Vladimir Putin is responsible for Mark Fogel being detained. He was responsible for all of those other people being detained. That is getting lost in this picture.
NAVARRO: But, Abby, it's also very reminiscent to what happened, what was it, last week with Maduro in Venezuela, where the Trump administration negotiated with Maduro, President Maduro, they call him now, despite the fact that he is a fraudulent president who did not accept the election results, completely left the Venezuelan opposition out of any negotiation. Maduro gave him American hostages to bring home, which makes all of us feel good, right, when these Americans come home. But I think that you're going to see this over and over again with Donald Trump and strongmen. I just wish he treat our allies in Panama and Canada and Mexico the way that he treats these dictators everywhere around the world.
PHILLIP: It is a good point. I mean, he has way more smoke for Canada and Mexico than he does for Putin and Maduro.
JENNINGS: Look the reality is, this has to end. The political will in the United States has drained for us to continue to be engaged in a stalemate. As much as I agree with all of you that Russia is the bad guy, they did the invading, they're the aggressor, Ukraine didn't ask for that. What I heard Hegseth say today was frankly just the realistic outcome. We're not going to put a NATO member on Russia's border right now. And he also said we want a sovereign and prosperous --
NAVARRO: Do you think it was smart for him to say it today though?
MATTHEWS: That was my issue. It's just --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I guess what I would say is that it's probably not a coincidence that he said it today. JENNINGS: He also said we want a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. I've heard allegations for months that Trump was going to, quote, hand Ukraine over to Russia. That is not the policy position of the United States today. Our position is sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. And so you can keep living in the fever swamps if you want, but I heard about the secretary of defense said.
PHILLIP: Stanislav Kucher, thank you very much for joining us, I appreciate it. Everyone else, stick around.
Coming up next, the White House punishes a news outlet for not following its Gulf of America renaming. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat on this slippery slope.
Plus, breaking news tonight, we are getting word of mass firings that are underway at U.S. agencies. Standby for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: For an administration that claims to champion free speech, it is certainly not a fan -- it is certainly a fan of silencing people. For the second straight day, the Associated Press is the largest news organization in the world, and it now has been banned from the White House and from the Oval Office over the A.P.'s refusal to adopt Trump's preferred name for the Gulf of Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I was very upfront in my briefing on day one that if we feel that there are lies being pushed by outlets in this room, we are going to hold those lies accountable. And it is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America. And I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Says the person who talked about $50 million worth of condoms in Gaza, but that is neither here nor there.
Brian Stelter is with us, also with us, Emily Austin.
Look, this is putting aside her points about lies being told in the briefing room. There's some really interesting questions happening here about whether the White House can compel news organizations to talk about things in a particular way.
[22:20:06]
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: This is a power play, plain and simple. The president wants people to obey. He wants people to use the words he chooses. He wants people to fall in line. And if they don't, they lose their access. They're not allowed to be in the company of the president. Notably, in the last two days, when the A.P. reporters have been blocked, in one case, I'm told physically blocked from entering the Oval Office, the photographer was still out there, the A.P. photographer, right, because the president still wants his photo taken. He wants the pictures, but not the words.
This is a First Amendment violation, and I expect in the next few days, the A.P. will file suit. And they have a very strong case in court. This is yet another example where the courts will be the recourse for a presidential action.
NAVARRO: Brian, what are the other media outlets doing?
STELTER: Right now, they're still showing up. They're still asking questions. But that's right, the Correspondents' Association has condemned this and called it unacceptable. I think you're suggesting maybe reporters should, what, skip the briefing?
NAVARRO: Should band together because, I mean, listen, if the bully manages to bully one, he's not going to stop at one.
EMILY AUSTIN, SPORTS HOST AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think this is as emotional as you're making it out to be. You know, take away the hysteria for a moment. First off, Trump doesn't need --
NAVARRO: Who's being hysterical?
AUSTIN: Both of you. Trump doesn't need, first of all, A.P. to --
NAVARRO: You obviously don't know what a hysterical Ana Navarro is like.
AUSTIN: I just believe it comes down to compliance. Trump put out an executive order. There was an executive order. He changed the name legally to Gulf of America. They're United States-based. I know they're international as well. But right now, they're covering U.S. politics. So, if he makes an executive order, they should respect that. And if they don't, being there is not a right. It's a privilege.
MATTHEWS: I'm just going to add in here though, this has been called the Gulf of Mexico for 400 years, and every other nation calls it the Gulf of Mexico. So, just because Trump claims that we need to --
AUSTIN: We're operating in the United States.
MATTHEWS: Okay. But doesn't this feel like a really weird like wokism thing on the right? Like it feels like the rights version of like Latin X or like birthing person? It just feels like a really weird hill to die on.
PHILLIP: Nobody -- by the way, just to be clear, nobody had to comply with any of that.
MATTHEW: Yes.
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: And if they did, you know, heads would be exploding at this table.
NAVARRO: They should adopt the Prince method. Just have a little symbol. Call the Gulf, formerly known as the Gulf of Mexico, which should now be called, whatever the hell he wants.
STELTER: But there's a much broader danger. Today, it's the Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf America. Tomorrow, what is it? The president says there's only two genders in this world. We all know transgender people. What happens when the A.P. reports on transgender Americans? What happens when CNN or ABC or The New York Times? Are those the next outlets to be punished?
AUSTIN: I believe that there's two genders, and then Biden tells me that there's 73. Well, I don't comply with that. But the Biden administration isn't barring Fox News from covering press conferences.
PHILLIP: Right, he's not going to ban you from coming to the White House because you have a different --
(CROSSTALKS)
STELTER: Well, for the last two days though, the A.P. has been blocked from attending events and it's intended for decades.
AUSTIN: (INAUDIBLE) executive order.
NAVARRO: I really would rather you not refer to me hysterical for expressing an opinion. I think that's incredibly disrespectful. I don't do it for you.
JENNINGS: Why do you think the A.P. won't just call it the Gulf of America? I mean, the president does --
PHILLIP: Let me just --
JENNINGS: We renamed, what's the mountain, Denali, Mount McKinley.
PHILLIP: Let me read their explanation for why they are not doing it. Essentially, they are saying that Mexico -- that Trump's order only carries authority within the United States. Mexico, as well as other countries and international bodies, do not have to recognize that name change. The Gulf of Mexico has carried that name for 400 years, as was said at the table, and the Associated Press is going to refer to it by its original name, while acknowledging that Trump has a new name that he would like to call it.
They are an international organization. No one except Trump, with a pen, has said that it's the Gulf of America. It's a body of water that also has borders with another country. And it's been named that for 400 years.
JENNINGS: I know, but we have a lawful process in this country for changing the name of it. The president went through it with the secretary of the interior, by the way. I mean, it feels a little --
PHILLIP: And it's also different -- can I just answer the Denali question? I the Denali thing is actually different because that's a place that's in the United States proper. It exists in the country.
JENNINGS: But we change the name of it. The point is we change the name of it.
PHILLIP: So, we have the ability to change the name. It's Mount McKinley. It's Mount McKinley.
JENNINGS: But we also have the ability to change this body of water. I just -- I think, look, this smacks of me, to me, of a news organization looking for a way to pick a fight with Donald Trump over something that they don't need to pick a fight over, A. B, he is the president and there is a lawful process that he did follow to do it.
PHILLIP: The news organization did not pick a fight with Donald Trump over this. Donald Trump picked a fight with the news organization.
JENNINGS: No, they're not calling it by the name. That's the fight.
PHILLIP: No, the news organization can do whatever they want. If they want to call it the Gulf of, you know, South America, they can call it that.
JENNINGS: But why would I respect a news organization that doesn't deal in reality?
STELTER: You don't have to.
PHILLIP: Scott, they can call it whatever they want because there's free speech in this country.
[22:25:01]
Wouldn't you agree?
JENNINGS: Sure. Yes. But that, in my opinion, if you're not willing to call something by the proper name based on the laws of the United States, that calls into question your judgment. And are you a news organization or are you just --
PHILLIP: There are no laws in play here. It's an executive order. And the body of water is not named by the United States. It's named by global organizations that name global landmarks. That's not -- it's not certainly the law.
JENNINGS: So, you don't respect Donald Trump's executive order or the secretary of the interior's process on this either, do you?
PHILLIP: Donald Trump had an executive order, but the Associated Press is not bound by it.
MATTHEWS: Scott, what if the Biden administration did this, though, similarly? What if the Biden administration was barring, say, a Fox News because they weren't going along with an executive order where Biden said, you must refer to every single transgender person as they, them, or whatever it was?
JENNINGS: Listen, I think if you were to engage in a --
MATTHEWS: Would you be supportive of that then? I think that it gets really dangerous when we start forcing terminology on people. I didn't like it when the left did it with things like Latin X, birthing person.
JENNINGS: Listen, these things are not, in any way, shape or form, related, A. B, the Biden administration treated the press as poorly as any president has ever treated them, gave them less access, answered no questions, no transparency at any given time. Donald Trump's answered more questions in three weeks than Joe Biden answered in four years. Elon Musk answered more than he did.
STELTER: That's not true. And also a lot of the answers --
JENNINGS: Come on, Brian. This administration is giving the most access to the press they could possibly want.
PHILLIP: Just to be clear, it's also changing the subject, and we're not changing the subject.
JENNINGS: But you're asking about transparency. Can the news be covered? And, yes, it's being covered.
PHILLIP: Actually, we're talking about the First Amendment, freedom of speech.
JENNINGS: Is he being --
STELTER: The A.P. will win in court. Look, the A.P. is going to win in court. If they go to court, the AP will win, just as CNN won in 2018 when a press credential was revoked. We're going to see the courts speak out on behalf of the First Amendment here.
AUSTIN: Okay. I'm with Scott here, that if he changes the name to the Gulf of America, whether they like it or not, them not calling it that, they are based out of the U.S., I get that they're an international organization, it's simply they're not reporting on the truth. So, now, if you're the president, you can argue, they're not reporting the truth, so why are they qualified to be here?
PHILLIP: But, Emily, wouldn't you agree that the truth is also that the rest of the world calls it the Gulf of Mexico?
AUSTIN: So, technically, so every other country could change the name of it to in their own country, then the journalists should comply with whatever their country wants to call it.
PHILLIP: Okay. But, Emily, wouldn't you agree that the truth is also that every other country in the world calls it the Gulf of Mexico?
AUSTIN: That's fine, but Donald Trump put an executive order to change it.
PHILLIP: So, which truth do you care about?
AUSTIN: I care about the American truth.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, let's just be clear about it.
AUSTIN: So, the American truth is that Trump --
PHILLIP: You only care about the version of truth that Donald Trump says is true?
MATTHEWS: : I believe it feels like a really weird hill to die on and something to get quite hysterical over. It feels like it's actually ridiculous.
PHILLIP: It is weird.
STELTER: It's the opposite of a hill.
JENNINGS: I agree. Why is the A.P. (INAUDIBLE)?
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. Brian, I do want to, I do want to talk about one very important thing, speaking of treatment of the media. The FCC is going after media companies.
STELTER: Yes.
PHILLIP: They're going after NPR and PBS. They're going after NBC, Universal and Comcast over their corporate practices around DEI. What authority do they have to do that?
STELTER: The FCC has never done this under Republicans or Democrats before. The current FCC chair appointed by Trump wants to be different, wants to do things differently. That's what he's doing. But this all smacks of an attempt to pressure every major media company in the U.S. except for Fox News, in terms of (INAUDIBLE). All the others are under pressure right now.
PHILLIP: Which, by the way, until maybe two or three weeks ago, also had DEI practices as part of their corporate governance.
STELTER: Yes, it did. They talked about --
PHILLIP: Because they're a private corporation.
STELTER: And it can do what it wants.
PHILLIP: And it can do what it wants, except maybe not. I mean, are we okay with the government telling corporations how they can govern themselves?
NAVARRO: There's nothing less conservative than that, and less of a Republican value than that. I mean, Republicans used to be for small government, and for the private sector, governing themselves. And we are for less regulation, supposedly. And so I just -- I see it such as such as so opposed to all of the things that we grew up believing.
JENNINGS: So, you're saying we should do away with the FCC?
NAVARRO: No, I'm not saying we should do away with the FCC.
JENNINGS: Is that the conservative view?
NAVARRO: I'm saying, I'm saying that no government agency should be telling --
PHILLIP: Ana, I'm going to stop this conversation right there because I think it's so --
JENNINGS: I mean, we're in the mood right now. I'm just telling you.
PHILLIP: Scott, it's in such bad faith for you to take what she just said and then -- no, and then say you want to get rid of the FCC?
JENNINGS: No. She said we should have less regulations. This is a regulatory agency. What are they supposed to do?
PHILLIP: That's not at all what she said.
JENNINGS: She said they shouldn't be so active.
PHILLIP: What's your answer to her question about whether the FCC should be dabbling in Comcast and NBC Universal and saying, this is how you need to run your corporation?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, I think these public broadcasters. I mean, they do have these licenses because it's the public airwaves. And that's the reason the regulatory agency exists. So, you know, that's the way it's always worked.
I truthfully don't know what the right answer here is. This is a more muscular look at these. Trump, obviously, and his people feel that some of these people have run amok with their -- with the privilege of having these licenses. So, I don't know what the answer is to that.
STELTER: Governments say that. All I know right now is that slippery slope earlier, we are slipping. Like we're three weeks in and we are slipping. We are seeing attacks --
[22:30:00]
PHILLIP: Everything is fine and dandy when your guy is in charge, but when the other party is in charge, it'll be a different story.
Brian Stelter, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else, hold on.
Breaking news tonight, we are getting word now of mass firings that are underway at key agencies in the federal government. That includes the Department of Education. We'll discuss that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Breaking news, mass firings have begun at federal agencies according to employee and union sources. Probationary employees are being fired at the Department of Education and the Small Business Administration. Now, until now, federal employees across the government were just placed on administrative leave.
[22:35:03]
Jamal is back with us at the table. These firings appear to affect people. The Department of Education has been in DOGE's sights. People in the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitation Services that supports kids with disabilities and the Federal Student Aid Office, that's at least what we know right now.
I also want to read part of what the letter said to these employees. Quote, "The agency finds based on your performance that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at the agency would be in the public interest." So, it's begun.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, most of the 19th century, the civil service was open for patronage, right? It was handled by big city bosses and, you know, politicians of both parties. In 1883, President Chester Arthur made the merit-based system civil service.
And that was to get rid of politics in our civil service so we knew we could count on government employees to do the people's business, not the politicians' business. We are not just going back to some previous, you know, thing in the '70s, 1970s or the 1950s. We're going all the way back to the 1870s and how the president of the United States wants to govern.
So, whether he wants to be President McKinley and start annexing like new --new lands overseas or he wants to go back to an earlier era where everybody's going to be beholden to the president and not beholden to the people, this is not I think what the American public signed up for. They want it to change and the Democrats want change.
All of us, I think, want to have a government that works for us, it's faster, it's more efficient. But we don't want a government that doesn't work for us and works for billionaires and the president of the United States.
PHILLIP: And a government that every four years, I mean I'm just trying to put my head in the position of this country when Trump is not president, right? Every four years, presumptively now, the president's going to come in and the entire civil service of the government is going to change out.
And all the things that you relied on the government to -- to do, now you have no idea whether the government's going to do it or not because of the whims of the president. I think that that is also something that we have to take seriously as a possibility here. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the whims, as
you call them, are embedded in the Constitution of the United States. The President is the head of the executive branch. He ought to be able to decide how to operate the executive branch and who works at the executive branch. And you say that the government shouldn't answer to the President, it should answer to the people. Well, how do the people --
SIMMONS: They should be responsible.
JENNINGS: How do the people choose how to govern themselves by electing a president? And so, look, these are probationary employees. I don't know how many it is, but all I know is this. Government only ever seems to get bigger. It never really seems to get smaller. He promised to make it smaller and now they're making it smaller. To me, the political upside here is quite obvious.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think this goes hand in hand with the buyouts that were offered that the judge then put a freeze on, right? And so, if they can't --
PHILLIP: Just to be clear, and that freeze, just to be clear, that freeze has now been lifted --
NAVARRO: Right.
PHILLIP: -- by the judge because the case is --
NAVARRO: And it's going to be appealed.
PHILLIP: -- going on.
NAVARRO: So, if it's, you know, if they can't do it through the buyouts, then they're going to fire people. And who can they fire? They can fire the people who don't yet have union protection because they are probationary, as Scott just said. Which means --
PHILLIP: You mean they were more recently hired.
NAVARRO: Yeah. Which means I don't understand how they can be sending an email saying your performance has proven not to be up to par when they were just recently hired.
PHILLIP: It seems like a bit of a--
NAVARRO: It's very arbitrary.
PHILLIP: It seems like a bit of a, they're trying to, it's kind of CYA --
NAVARRO: Yeah.
PHILLIP: --like you have to put that in there to justify firing someone, even though the firing is really more about Scott's point than it is actually about this person's performance, which we will probably end up seeing in court at some point. EMILY AUSTIN, SPORTS HOST AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I want to go
back to Jamal's point and respectfully disagree. You said, I don't think this is what the American people signed up for, but I think it's exactly what we signed up for. I don't know if any president in history spent this much time on holding accountability and efficiency to his own government.
So, the Department of Education has a $70 billion budget annually. Yet we haven't seen any progress in the educational system over the last four years. We're ranked 13th in the world. We're like 24th in science, 18th in math. We're really not doing well on a global stage in terms of our education system performance.
So, I think evaluating, you know, where is the $70 billion going? Where are we failing? And how do we make this better? I don't know if blind firings for probational employees is the right thing to do. But I think definitely investigating through DOGE why we are failing so badly in the DOE is absolutely the right move to do.
SIMMONS: I'm telling you, in every government office I've ever seen, you can walk through the door, you can ask anybody who around here is not doing their job. They'll tell you. People will tell you who's not doing their job. You can get rid of those people. I don't know if anybody would complain. But it's the mass firings that says something else is afoot. It's not just what they're calling it.
JENNINGS: Agreed. There's something else afoot.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER W.H. DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMIN.: Yeah, I think that going off of what you were saying, Emily, with the budget, I think more than half of the budget goes to grants and loans for low-income students, for them to be able to attend college, things like that. And so, but I do agree with your point that we need to be doing more on education. And so, there needs to be some sort of reform.
And I think that this has been something that conservatives have long wanted is shrinking the Department of Education. So, I support all of that in that regard, but where I have the issue is these firings and what is the reasoning for them? Are these people being laid off because maybe they're anti-Trump and posted things on social media? Like, what is, these people deserve a little bit more of an explanation then. That's just a vague email saying that.
JENNINGS: No, there's no mystery. There's no mystery. Let me offer them an explanation. This administration would like to make the federal government smaller. We would like to spend less on payroll. You just got here, therefore you won't be working here anymore. It's pretty simple and they shouldn't take it personally, but these guys got elected to shrink the government and that's what they intend to do.
NAVARRO: But Scott, there has been, like cold emails going to government workers, even before Trump took office in those two months between the transition, wanting people to snitch on each other, wanting colleagues to snitch on each other. Who supported Biden? Who did this? Who did that?
There's websites targeting people who are government, not political appointees, civil servants. And I will tell you that I'm not sure everybody knew what they were signing up for. I remember reading the case of a V.A. worker who was moving to Washington because they'd just gotten a new employment, right? And now, it's frozen.
And guess what? They voted for Trump, but they've sold their house. They've sold their car. They are ready to move to Washington, D.C. to be a V.A. worker and now they are out of jobs. And so, that's going to happen to Republicans, Democrats and everybody in between.
PHILLIP: There is a question that is for another day about whether there is an ideological litmus test now for working in the government. And I think that there are some indications that perhaps there is. Sarah Matthews, thank you very much for joining us.
Everyone else hang tight. Coming up next, a holy war of words as Pope Francis and Trump's allies face off over Christian philosophy. Another special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat at the table.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:15]
PHILLIP: Breaking tonight, Pam Bondi making her first big move as attorney general, suing New York over its sanctuary city policies. It comes as MAGA and the Pope are facing off in a religious war of words.
Francis is so upset about the Trump administration's immigration policies that he wrote a letter to American bishops criticizing Vice President J.D. Vance for using Catholic philosophy to defend their actions. The Pope argues that deportations hurt the most vulnerable. And here is the response from the man running those deportation operations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: I'm saying this as a lifelong Catholic. I'm a baptized Catholic. First communion as a Catholic. Confirmation as a Catholic. He ought to fix the Catholic Church and concentrate on his work and leave border enforcement to us.
He wants to attack us from securing our border? He's got a wall around the Vatican, does he not? So, he's got a wall around to protect his people and himself but we can't have a wall around the United States? So, I wish he'd stick to the Catholic Church and fix that and leave border enforcement to us."
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Father Edward Beck, a Roman Catholic priest and religion commentator. I just want to start on, as I am a non-Catholic, a Christian but not a Catholic. So, my understanding was that the Pope is a very important person in the Catholic faith. EDWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST AND RELIGION COMMENTATOR. The most
important person.
PHILLIP: And I did not think that it was cool for Catholics to attack, denigrate the Pope. But it seems like that's what's happening right now.
PHILLIP: You're clearly not a Catholic.
PHILLIP: I don't know. I mean, what's going on?
BECK: For Mr. Homan to say that the Pope should do his job, that's exactly what he is doing, doing his job. This is what the Pope is supposed to do. This is the Pope whose first task after he was elected, he left Rome. His first visit outside of Rome went to Lampedusa, the island off of Italy and Africa, which was a gateway for migrants. And he prayed for migrants and asylum seekers who was lost in the sea.
So, thirteen years ago, when this man became Pope, this is the first thing he did. That's his job. He continues to do it. So, for Mr. Homan, who may be a lifelong Catholic, but guess what, so is the Pope, 88 years of lifelong Catholic. And I think he knows what his job is.
NAVARRO: but you know, the Pope is being the Pope, right? And I think it's not the first time. I am a Catholic. Mind you, not a very good one.
BECK: The little laughs.
NAVARRO: The little laughs.
UNKNOWN: Oh, no.
UNKNOWN: I love it.
PHILLIP: I don't want to get Ana in trouble.
JENNINGS: Do you want to turn this into a whole life conversation?
NAVARRO: It's a -- no, that's what I'm saying.
JENNINGS: Father?
NAVARRO: It turns to -- listen.
JENNINGS: Take this lady in the back and get some confession.
PHILLIP: Okay.
NAVARRO: Thank you. Well, listen. I -- Catholics tend to cherry pick politics a lot, right? Some are for capital punishment, some, and they're okay with that, even though the church isn't. Some are pro- choice, and they're okay with that, even though the church isn't. Some are pro-gay marriage, even though the church isn't. So, I think the Pope is being the Pope and what he's doing is
absolutely right. But it doesn't mean that it translates into anything in politics.
BECK: But he's being very clear on this issue of immigration and migrants. He says to the U.S. bishops, this is the policy. You follow it. You enforce it. This is the Christian policy.
NAVARRO: Will they? Do you think Cardinal Dolan will?
BECK: Of course. Cardinal Dolan is supportive of it.
PHILLIP: Well, I want to just, I want to play, this is the reason that the Pope, actually, I can't say that. I don't know the reason the Pope wrote the letter, but he was in part responding to J.D. Vance saying this. Listen.
[22:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And as an American leader, but also just as an American citizen, your compassion belongs first to your fellow citizens. It doesn't mean you hate people from outside of your own borders, but there's this old school.
And I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country, and then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.
A lot of the far left has completely inverted that. They seem to hate the citizens of their own country and care more about people outside their own borders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Father Beck, I see you shaking your head, but I want to just read from Pope Francis' letter responding to that. He says, "Christian love is not a concentric expansion of interests that little by little extend to other persons and groups.
True ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the Good Samaritan, that is by meditating on the love that builds a fraternity open to all without exception." The Good Samaritan being the parable about a person right in front of you and you helping them.
BECK: A very short theological lesson here, okay? This is Ordo Amoris, St. Augustine, fourth century father of the church. That means literally order of loves or order of charity -- to say you start not just with just your family and then work it out in these concentric circles that J.D. Vance is talking about.
The Pope says, no, Mr. Vance, you who are a Catholic only for six years, I'm a Catholic for 88 years as being Pope, he's a convert to Catholicism. That's not what Augustine meant. Augustine meant the paradigm of the Good Samaritan who is walking along, sees a Jew in a ditch, who has been put there by robbers. A priest passed him by, an Israeli priest.
A Levite, another Jew passes him by. The Samaritan, the foreigner, goes and picks him up. That is the paradigm, the model, that the Pope is setting forth for what Ordo Amoris is. So, that's the stranger. It is the person in need, most in need. That's who gets your attention, not just your family member, not just your community, the person most in need.
PHILLIP: That is, I mean, very powerful for you to say. And I think it is an important point, that he's trying to say, well, you're supposed to really only care about your family first, and then maybe later you care about other people. But as Father Beck is saying, as the Pope is saying, the Bible actually teaches otherwise.
JENNINGS: I know, but isn't it kind of irrelevant? We don't live in a theocracy. We live in the United States.
SIMMONS: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. It's your party, though.
PHILLIP: It is, to me.
JENNINGS: They have a constitution.
SIMMONS: You have the shroud of religion.
PHILLIP: I thought we were in a Judeo-Christian society.
JENNINGS: We are, but we have a constitution. But we have organized it according to Judeo-Christian values. But Abby, we live in a --
PHILLIP: I thought that the Ten Commandments should be taught to kids in the schools.
JENNINGS: Abby, I --
NAVARRO: What about the war on Christmas?
JENNINGS: So, we live under a constitution. We live under laws. I was researching this before I came out. I read a headline, Father, from January 15th. Quote, "Vatican cracks down on illegal entry into its territory." You've had a wall around it since the 9th century and you have the most draconian immigration laws in Europe. The lectures, I understand as a matter of theology --
BECK: The Pope has invited migrants into the Vatican to sleep and has cared for them within the walls of the Vatican. They lived inside the walls of the Vatican.
JENNINGS: January 15th was the deadline.
NAVARRO: And listen, we also have an order from --
PHILLIP: All right, guys, we got to go here. Father Edward Beck, thank you very much.
BECK: Read the Bible.
NAVARRO: He's got the order, too, of these things.
PHILLIP: Coming up next, our panel is going to give us their nightcaps, and we will have a musical theme for you tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:29]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNightcap", Sphere edition. Today, the Backstreet Boys, one of my favorites, announced their upcoming residency at the Vegas and its massive performance venue, but they will follow bands like U2 and the Eagles in that space. So now you each have 30 seconds to tell us who else should go to The Sphere for a residency. Jamal?
SIMMONS: "If Pain Was A Person", it'd be Moneybag Yo.
PHILLIP: Wow.
SIMMONS: Well, Keisha, all that, like, you know, Ocean Spray, that's all.
PHILLIP: Ana?
NAVARRO: Okay, so Bad Bunny just released a new album. It's called "Debi Tirar Mas Fotos". It's doing great. He's about to do a residency in Puerto Rico for his people. He's saying, I don't want to leave this island. I want him to leave the island because I want to go see him and I'd love to see him in The Sphere.
PHILLIP: Something tells me he'll be at The Sphere in no time. Go ahead, Emily.
AUSTIN: I have an obsession with Bad Bunny as well, but since he is taken, I'm going to have to go with the second on my Spotify rep, which is The Weeknd. I know nothing about him personally. I just know his music's phenomenal and I would love seeing him in person.
PHILLIP: All right. Scott.
JENNINGS: There's only one correct answer. We need to take the greatest show on cable television on the road, the 10 o'clock Abby Phillip round table in the middle of The Sphere, live studio audience, and if we cannot afford that, I would propose we put this on some college campuses somewhere. I think this is the greatest show on TV. There's no other show like it, and a live studio audience would make it the Thunderdome in Vegas this fall, must see TV and must see action in person.
PHILLIP: We will take the show on the road.
[23:00:00] JENNINGS: Do you accept?
PHILLIP: Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. The Sphere.
JENNINGS: Abby and friends on the middle of The Sphere.
NAVARRO: You've got all these rich friends now.
JENNINGS: The Colosseum.
NAVARRO: That's a positive.
PHILLIP: Everybody's got to keep their hands to themselves. This is verbal Thunderdome.
SIMMONS: Yes.
PHILLIP: Nothing more. Everyone, thank you very much. And thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
