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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Tensions Boil Between Judge, Trump DOJ Over Alleged Defiance; Trump Revokes Security Clearances For Biden, Harris, Others; Musk Visits Pentagon, Denies Getting Top Secret War Plans; Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick Under Fire For His Comments; Leland Dudek Threatens To Shutter SSA; Boxing Legend George Foreman Passes Away At 76. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 21, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the most powerful victims in the world, Elon Musk and Donald Trump, say, woe is us, while promising punishment for leakers, vandals, and reporters.
Plus, the immovable judge standing in the president's way.
Also gripping the third rail with two hands, a Trump official predicts Americans won't note it.
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Let's say Social Security didn't send out their checks this month. My mother-in-law, who's 94, she wouldn't call and complain.
PHILLIP: -- if Social Security checks disappear.
And Columbia University or Trump U? The Ivy League institution trades credibility for cash.
Live at the table, Joel Payne, Tiffany Smiley, Melik Abdul, Karen Finney, and George Wallace.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about. How far can Donald Trump bend the law? Tonight, that's the question at the center of a fight between the administration and a federal judge. The specific law in question is the Alien Enemies Act, and it was the subject of a tense hour-long hearing today. The judge's language is scary because James Boasberg believes the administration wants to interpret the how they want to interpret this law is scary.
Quote, the judge said that the policy implications of Trump's invocation of the law are awfully frightening as he tested how far the president could take the law, if there was not any oversight from the courts. He went on to say that under the arguments pushed by the Justice Department attorneys defending Trump's actions, the president could claim, quote, that anybody is invading the United States necessitating another use of a wartime authority.
Now, Trump is trying to insist that the country there's nothing to see here, that he doesn't really have anything to do with any of this, and he can't tell you the chapter in verse of the law that he invoked because he didn't sign it, except he actually did, or maybe his autopen did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: It doesn't sound like this judge who the DOJ is arguing with today about the deportation flights, he wants to know why the proclamation was signed in the dark, his words, and why people were rushed onto planes.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Because we want to get criminals out of our country, number one. And I don't know when it was signed because I didn't sign it. Other people handle it. But Marco Rubio's done a great job and he wanted them out. And we go along with that. We want to get criminals out of our country,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, maybe this is why he was talking so much about autopen this week. This is a pretty big deal of a thing to not remember that he signed it and the judge is rightfully now asking questions about what the intention was behind both the signing it at the time that he did and also getting those planes going, knowing that there was a ruling to stop it.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, absolutely. Look, there's a couple of things though. This is yet another example where we've seen the administration pick something extreme to try to push the boundary of presidential power, to push the law, to push the courts. I mean, you know, of course nobody wants terrorists in the country. This whole argument though is about the rule of law. And even in our own CNN poll, 84 percent of Americans want Donald Trump to follow the law. And some of us are old enough to remember when President Bush did not follow the law and we had warrantless wiretaps. And when Americans found out about it, they were furious.
So, the Trump administration continues to have this problem with this loose relationship with the truth. They don't seem to be able to present the judge with the data to say, here's who's on the plane. We can prove to you that these individuals are actually gang members. We're now hearing stories that some of them may not have been at all. And I can't imagine the horror of being in one of these prisons if you're not.
So, you know, again, people want him to follow the law. That seems to be very difficult for Donald. TIFFANY SMILEY (R), FORMER WASHINGTON U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: I mean, I can't imagine the horror of American families who have their children murdered by these illegal criminals that are in our country.
[22:05:05]
And Donald Trump has a constitutional obligation to protect the American people. That's, what, over 77 million people voted to do.
JOEL PAYNE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: But, Tiffany, wouldn't you say that I don't have to defend your behavior to defend your rights? I mean, your rights exist for a reason. They exist because --
SMILEY: So, the criminals have rights?
PAYNE: I think lots of the American --
PHILLIP: Why don't you answer your own question? Do criminals have rights?
SMILEY: Look, we have illegal criminals in our country that Donald Trump has a constitutional obligation to protect the American people.
PHILLIP: But you asked, do criminals have rights? Do they have rights in this country?
SMILEY: Absolutely. And he's sending them back to their country to go through due process.
PHILLIP: So, the judge is basically asking, what's the process here? And the answer that the administration has given is that they actually don't want to say. According to the reporting, Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, said basically that the cabinet secretaries are currently actively considering whether to invoke state secrets privileges over the facts requested by the court's order. The court is asking, who are these people? What process was used to deport them? What laws were used to deport them? They don't want to say. They want to invoke state secrets?
SMILEY: Look again it goes back to protecting the American people. This is crazy that this is even an issue. 77 million people -- over 77 million people elected Donald Trump. They didn't elect Judge Boasberg. So --
PAYNE: Tiffany, we have a Constitution, so we have laws, we have Congress, we have judges, we have lots of fail safes to protect the American people. You can protect the American people and protect our rights. I think you're setting up a false choice if you suggest --
MELIK ABDUL, GOP POLITICAL STRATEGIST: And here's the thing here with presidents, and it doesn't matter if it's Donald Trump or anyone, presidents have always tested executive authority. We remember when Barack Obama bypassed Congress with during the Libya intervention. He bypassed Congress then. Donald Trump will have to answer the question.
Now, honestly, I believe that this is a fight that Donald Trump wanted. He said that he was going to be, you know, very tough on immigration, and I think this is something that they're inviting. But I also believe, and this is just my assumption, I believe that they expected this sort of fight.
Now, it may be a situation where it is said, okay, well you can't do this anymore, and Donald Trump, even though he's, you know, campaigned on immigration, I think that this is something that they kind of expect and know.
PHILLIP: They need to do this. Because in order to get to the numbers that he wants to get at, they'd say --
ABDUL: Right, that's the way that you do it.
PHILLIP: I think they've determined that they can't go through a process. Well, Trump was asked about this today. I just want to play what he said about whether he needs to actually provide evidence to the court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you think you have the authority, the power to round up people, deport them, and then you're under no obligation to a court to show the evidence against them?
TRUMP: Well, that's what the law says, and that's what our country needs.
And so when you ask me if we have the authority, did Biden have the authority to allow millions of people to come into our country? Many of these people hardened criminals at the top of the line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINNEY: But, again, so two things. One, we've seen reports they're finding out like Biden did. They don't even have a place to put people. That's part of why they're looking at Guantanamo Bay and they're trying to get people out of the country. But more importantly, I want to go back to what we were talking about. You should be able to follow the law, the Constitution, either you believe in it or you don't, and you don't get to pick and choose when you follow it and when you don't.
And this was a lesson that we learned during the war on terror when we found out that our president was actually listening to Americans, our government was listening to Americans illegally. You should be able to follow the law. Keep us safe. Why couldn't they just say to the judge, here's the proof that all of these individuals, they went through due process. Here's our proof that these are violent terrorists. Again, we all want terrorists out the country.
SMILEY: Well, I'm certain that the Trump administration will be able to prove that, and they know that this is -- you know, I truly believe they know this is a fight they will win in the courts.
PAYNE: But the records keeping on that is better than it's been on DOGE, but, yes.
PHILLIP: Well one of the examples that -- I mean, this is the, one of the most prominent examples, but a Venezuela asylum seeker who was here legally was deported based on a tattoo that was of a soccer team, because the Trump administration is trying to claim that they can identify gang members based on their tattoos.
SMILEY: Well, you mean the identity of someone based on their tattoos? I mean, that they can --
PHILLIP: It was to prove a gang affiliation based on the existence of a tattoo. This person had a tattoo that was associated with a soccer team.
FINNEY: Real Madrid. It's a real Madrid soccer --
SMILEY: So, this is one case, right? This is one case, when you look at the bigger scope of what we're dealing with here.
PHILLIP: I think the issue is what do we know about this, right? And I want to get back to, I think, the idea that the Trump administration is under a lot of pressure, self-imposed pressure, to make these deportations happen faster. And one of the reasons that they want to use this act is because they need to be able to cut corners to not have to go through final deportation proceedings so that they can get those numbers higher.
[22:10:04]
And that's why, to your point, they're testing the system right now.
PAYEN: Well, they want to do that. But I'd say also, if they want to chill, dissent. See, they want to use these laws, they want to abuse them, and they want to go after people they have political disagreements with. They don't want to go after those political disagreements through normal procedures, like, you know, running elections or going and trying to actually have a back and forth with someone they disagree with. They want to go and kick them out the country. They want to be the ultimate decider, judge, jury, and executioner of who belongs here and who doesn't. And that's just not how this country works.
ABDUL: Well, see, in this case, though, this isn't about political disagreement. These are about people who don't have the right to be here. Now, I do believe that the administration -- right. And I do believe that the administration should be careful and they do need to be transparent and they're going to have to be responsive to the judge. So, they can't just do kind of like a Wild, Wild West sort of thing. And so there're some things that the Trump administration is going to have to answer for,
SMILEY: But Wild, Wild West was an open border with millions of illegals coming into our country, violent criminals coming in and killing innocent Americans.
PHILLIP: All right. Up next for us, backlash after Elon Musk visits the Pentagon plus, Trump says the Tesla vandalism is worse than January 6th attacks. A special guest is going to join us in our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Some breaking news just in, President Trump has revoked the security clearances of more than a dozen officials, including his predecessor, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, the former vice president, Hillary Clinton, Liz Cheney, and several others, the prosecutors who went after him, Alvin Bragg, and others.
Joining us in our fifth seat on this is Paul Rieckhoff. He's the founder and CEO of the Independent Veterans of America and is an Army veteran who served in Iraq.
This is a continuation Paul, of what we've seen Trump do. He's rescinding these security clearances. He's blocking their access to secure federal buildings. And it seems this is all just about retribution.
PAUL RIECKHOFF, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: It seems that way. I mean, it's unprecedented, but I also think the bigger question we've got to ask is this good for our national security? Is it good to have a current president locking out the former president? And I think it just deepens a divide that exists between the last administration and this one, which at the end of the day, if you put partisanship aside, I don't think it's good for our national security.
And I think that's the prism we have to look at everything through this week where we talk about Elon Musk, we talk about the cuts at the Pentagon, we talk about the trans purge that's going on. All of it has to be seen beyond the partisanship and about what's most urgent for our national security and how it impacts things like the morale of our troops, the morale of our intelligence personnel, the morale of our FBI. That does matter.
And I think the ongoing chaos is maybe the thing that I want to underscore, chaos is not good for our national security. Our enemies celebrate chaos, and every ten minutes or so, we've got a new reason to have chaos.
PHILLIP: So, Tiffany, I wonder how you see this. I mean, what is the point of rescinding these clearances for people who, frankly, there's no reason to do this at all?
SMILEY: Well, they're not relevant in our American political system going forward. And, you know, Joe Biden should have his security clearance revoked with his mental status.
PHILLIP: What mental status?
SMILEY: Our former president, Joe Biden, who couldn't string a sentence together, who clearly showed signs --
PAYNE: That's a bad faith argument.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean --
SMILEY: That is not a bad faith argument.
PHILLIP: I want to -- I listen --
SMILEY: And not only that, you want to talk about chaos. That failed departure in Afghanistan where we saw people hanging on American airplanes.
RIECKHOFF: There's no shortage of chaos.
PHILLIP: I will concede that --
RIECKHOFF: You're not going to argue with that.
PHILLIP: I would concede that Joe Biden's, you know, mental --
SMILEY: He should not have a security clearance because of his mental status.
PHILLIP: Joe Biden's fitness to hold the office was in question.
SMILEY: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: But I think you would also --
SMILEY: And that questions in his security clearance.
PHILLIP: But I think you would also concede that you actually don't know if there is, what did you say, mental decline or anything like that. You don't know what that is or if there is any at all. He's an older man. The American people clearly did not want him to run president again. But so is Donald Trump. They're only a few years apart.
PAYNE: I mean, Donald Trump had forgotten he signed something today. So, I mean, I don't know if we want to get into that game. But, listen, this is all fun and games until something terrible happens, until we have a crisis that threatens this country and that threatens all of our safety and our security. And we should be able to transition from one president administration to another without this type of disruption.
I think you would agree.
RIECKHOFF: It's not a good idea. It's not a good idea.
(CROSSTALKS)
PAYNE: Actually, Joe Biden could've done that to Donald Trump before.
PHILLIP: Yes, go ahead.
RIECKHOFF: There's been nothing but disruption around the Pentagon, which is supposed to be insulated from disruption. I mean, just look at the last week. You had everything from the trans purge, which was blocked by a federal judge to let the laying off of 60,000 Pentagon workers, 20,000 or so, which will be veterans. You have Elon Musk at the Pentagon who last week called a member of the Armed Services Committee, Senator Mark Kelly, a traitor. I mean, it's chaos every single day.
And the distraction is for our troops and our warfighters and the people who actually have to defend this country when the politics continues to invade every single day at the Pentagon, most of all. And so I just --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Just one thing. I thought it was very interesting that, I mean, even last night on this show, we had Republicans on here defending Elon Musk potentially getting a briefing on China war plans only to have President Trump say exactly the opposite. I think we have the clip of Trump, if we can play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: These are terrorists. You didn't have that on January 6th, I can tell you. You didn't have anything like that on January 6th, which is sort of amazing, because on January 6th, the Democrats were talking, nobody was killed other than a very beautiful young woman, Ashli Babbitt.
[22:20:01]
Nobody was killed. And you look at what's going on now with these terrorists. These are terrorists and that's an organized event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Not that clip, but he did talk about how he doesn't think that Elon Musk should get access to this, in part because of his business conflict. So, it's either that he didn't know that this was happening, or maybe he did know and pulled it back when he saw the heat he was getting. Either way, it's kind of disturbing it.
FINNEY: It is disturbing, but it's also par for the course with this president. I mean, you know, in our last segment, we were talking about kind of throwing the secretary of state under the bus. I mean, that's what he tends to do.
I want to go to something Paul is saying. Having worked in the Clinton administration, part of the reason this has been a sort of a common thing where people maintain their security clearances and their security is our national security and intelligence is ever changing. What China is out for in terms of going after the United States today did not change just because Donald Trump is now president. You actually would want someone like Joe Biden, who's been dealing with it for the last four years, to be able to weigh in, if necessary, on certain things that may have been taking place under his administration. Hillary Clinton is our former secretary of state. Again, there's, there are actually very practical reasons, but going to the clip that we just showed, just quite briefly, it's not just that Elon Musk -- he both has very clear conflicts of interest around the business. He doesn't have the security clearance. And so we're saying --
SMILEY: Yes, he does.
PHILLIP: He has a security clearance.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. Let me just clarify this for just a second. You can have a top secret security clearance and still not have access to war plans. This is closely held information need to know.
(CROSSTALKS)
RIECKHOFF: Need to know is determined by security of defense.
PHILLIP: Let me say he has a security clearance.
FINNEY: We don't know what level.
PHILLIP: It's not clear that he or really anyone else with a top secret clearance has a need to know reason to have --
FINNEY: Well, I worked for an administration. I had a top secret clearance and that's one level. There are several other levels.
The other piece I'll just say about Elon Musk that I find very dangerous, that we don't talk enough about, it's the access to the data. The data is invaluable. You cannot put a number. He now has access to our Social Security information, our children's information, our very top, you know, when he's got his little minions in there.
PHILLIP: Well, we'll talk about Social Security and what the judge said --
ABDUL: I just wanted, say, just wanted to say that on this story about Elon Musk getting this, you know, getting war plans and I just checked it and I'm reading it right here, these defense officials said that it was going to be an unclassified briefing, and since then they've also said they wasn't sure the extent that of this conversation they were going to have about war plans. So, it isn't that he was going in there to get these war plans about China he met at the Pentagon. It was about -- I think they said it was about an hour or so. But it has since been clarified and the reporting actually says that he wasn't given a classified --
PAYNE: Nothing's --
(CROSSTALKS)
ABDUL: But we don't even know at this point whether or not it's actually true that the purpose of him being there was to get war plans when it comes to China.
RIECKHOFF: But that's the point. That's the point.
ABDUL: But if he were though, it was an unclassified briefing. The point is that, as a special government employee, he might have some sort of interest in it. I don't know. But --
RIECKHOFF: The point is that it's not clear and it's constantly chaotic. And if at best --
SMILEY: It's an anonymous source to Wall Street Journal.
RIECKHOFF: At best, it's clumsy and sloppy and they're not on the same page.
SMILEY: The reporting is clumsy and sloppy.
RIECKHOFF: Hold on, let's use another example. They erased Jackie Robinson from the Department of Defense and the Tuskegee airmen and any number of other people --
ABDUL: And they come back.
RIECKHOFF: -- hold on, who were heroic people who've served our country. They said maybe it was a mistake.
The Pentagon is not a place where we can make mistakes. It's not a place with a margin of error. If they're making mistakes in that area, what are they doing in Syria? What are they doing around security clearances? What are they doing in other areas?
The issue we most need to be concerned about is sloppiness and incompetence. And when people are not on the same page and our national government around national security, our enemies are celebrating.
ABDUL: Well, I don't think removing webpages is the same as what the Pentagon or the administration doing when it comes to our foreign policy. I don't like the fact that it happened, but it's not the same.
PHILLIP: Joel, you were going to say something.
PAYNE: No, I was just going to ask a question. What would actually be the rationale for someone like Elon Musk have access to that, like you all, do you feel that Elon Musk should --
ABDUL: Access to what though? He don't even know what that is.
PAYNE: Access to anything that Pete Hegseth would have to say.
ABDUL: I don't know.
SMILEY: He was invited to the Pentagon.
PAYNE: He was supposed to be there to help make our government more efficient. ABDUL: I agree.
PAYNE: Work better. He has nothing to do with our national security. He has nothing to do with our --
(CROSSTALKS)
RIECKHOFF: He has billions of dollars of government contracts. He's a defense contractor, which is why he should be conflicted out on many of these conversations.
PAYNE: Agreed.
RIECKHOFF: And briefings.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, look, as I said earlier, I mean, Donald Trump himself indicated that he didn't know what this was about and he had to go find out. And then when he found out, he said it's not happening.
[22:25:01]
So, on some level, we've been --
SMILEY: Well, it is his Secretary of Defense who can operate independently.
PHILLIP: There's a reason sometimes that these stories come out and it's to prompt action, which it clearly --
SMILEY: But it was one anonymous source that reported to The Wall Street Journal.
PHILLIP: No. Wall Street Journal had two sources. The New York Times had multiple sources as well.
Paul Rieckhoff, we appreciate you. Thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else stick around.
Coming up next, Donald Trump's commerce Chief says, if older Americans miss their social security checks no big deal.
And, plus, a legendary comedian, George Wallace, is going to join us in our fifth seat.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick under fire tonight after the billionaire made these out of touch comments about people who complain about missing their Social Security checks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Let's say Social Security didn't send out their checks this month. My mother-in-law who's 94, she wouldn't call and complain. She just wouldn't. She thinks something got messed up and she'll get it next month.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
LUTNICK: A fraudster always makes the loudest noise, screaming, yelling and complaining.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And there is more. The acting head of the Social Security Administration and the White House don't exactly sound as if they're on the same page. Leland Dudek, the acting head of SSA, threatened to shutter the entire agency if Elon Musk's DOGE didn't get access to super sensitive data warehoused in his department.
The White -- the White House may have gotten in Dudek's ear and told him, please say something different because he told "The Washington Post" hours later, "The president is committed to keeping the Social Security offices open to serve the public."
And he added that the White House called to remind him that he was out of line. Legendary comedian George Wallace is going to join us at the table right now. George --
GEORGE WALLACE, COMEDIAN: Yeah. I've almost interrupted your speech there. Who the hell --what does his name, Nutwick?
PHILLIP: Lutnick.
WALLACE: Lutnick. He's a nut. If his mother doesn't get it, he's crazy. Let him call my mother -she don't get her --
PHILLIP: What do you think is what do you think is the consequence? I mean, so many Americans, rely on social security just to get by. What's the consequence of even suggesting that the way to get them to stop fraud -- the way to -- to stop fraudsters is to just stop all the checks and see who complains about it.
WALLACE: This whole thing is stupid. Somebody's been getting a check for three hundred years, but who's a stupid person to stop sending them the check?
MELIK ABDUL, GOP POLITICAL STRATEGIST: You know, and so this is why Donald Trump is a very unique politician. Now, I heard Lutnick. Now, in Lutnick's case --
WALLACE: Oh, Lutnick.
ABDUL: Lutnick is able to send his mother money to make up for her not missing a Social Security check. Many other people, and I would argue most other people are not. You may not like Donald Trump, but Donald Trump flew around on a plane with his name on the side of the plane, but that is not something that you would ever hear Donald Trump say. Donald Trump was the billionaire that people even in his billionaire status, he could relate to people. He empathized with people on their level. And so, he has people around him like Lutnick. And then what you said with the Social Security office --
JOEL PAYNE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I don't know what that's got to do --
ABDUL: -- that's not something that even Republicans --
JOEL PAYNE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I got to be honest. I don't know what that's got to do with my mother, my father, my grandmother's Social Security money, and this man talking about they won't miss the check.
ABDUL: Well, I'm telling you about Donald -- I'm telling you about, well, you interrupted me --
PAYNE: Yeah.
ABDUL: -- so I'm telling you about Donald Trump and what makes him unique as opposed to some of these people around him is not something that Lutnick should even said.
PHILLIP: Well, I guess what I'm saying is that -- no, I guess what I'm saying is that he hired Lutnick.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, he clearly thought that Lutnick was good for him.
PAYNE: But my broader point I was going to make was this. I think it's easy for us to fall into the trap to think that this is him putting his foot in his mouth, making a mistake. I actually think it's a part of a pretty consistent campaign by Trump, by Elon Musk, by Lutnick to start to condition the public to think that Social Security isn't essential.
WALLACE: You know what he is.
PAYNE: Donald Trump in his address to congress talking about the 350- year-old man, Howard Lutnick, with these comments today, Elon Musk calling it a Ponzi scheme. They are trying to attack this thing that we know is the third rail in politics.
WALLACE: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on a second.
UNKNOWN: Well, then Republican Party has not --
PHILLIP: It seems that the White House, based on how they responded to the acting administrator of the Social Security office, they were like, stop talking about this. They understand that this is not a good line of conversation.
TIFFANY SMILEY (R) FORMER WASHINGTON U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Well, President Trump is the White House and dictates all policy at the White House at the end of the day. And, you know, the spirit of what he's saying is correct. He's basically saying that people know they are going to get their government checks. They can rely on that. That's the spirit of what he is saying.
PHILLIP: That's really not the spirit of what he is saying.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Not the spirit --
PHILLIP: What he was saying was that the only way to know when people are fraudsters is when they complain.
SMILEY: Well, and both Democrats and Republicans can agree that there's waste, fraud and abuse within our Social Security.
ABDUL: But this isn't something that Donald Trump --
SMILEY: That is that is a fact.
ABDUL: But in the first administration and even in the Republican Party, think of how Republicans just over the years, have always fought back on the notion that they want to cut Social Security, they want to cut Medicare. Donald Trump has not -- I don't believe there's any type of effort among Donald Trump.
Now, there may be people like Elon Musk and other people around Donald Trump who have these sentiments, but Donald Trump has the standard Republican conservative position when it comes to Social Security --
PAYNE: You just have to have to hire a bunch of people that --
[22:35:00]
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL: (inaudible) as the President of The United States.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. Lutnick is one of 11 billionaires. So your whole, like, he relates to the people. Give me a break. One of 11 billionaires.
ABDUL: No, I'm talking about Donald Trump.
FINNEY: No. I know. That's what I'm saying. He hired 11 --
ABDUL: I'm talking about Donald Trump.
FINNEY: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL: Well, you can't speak for the 11 other people, well, what does that mean?
FINNEY: Donald Trump hired 11 billionaires --
ABDUL: We're talking about Donald Trump.
FINNEY: He hired 11 billionaires. Ninety percent of Americans over 65 rely on Social Security.
ABDUL: Yes.
WALLACE: Listen to me.
FINNEY: Now, just ask George W. Bush how it worked out when he tried to privatize those --
ABDUL: Well; they're not doing it, though.
FINNEY: However --
ABDUL: They're not doing it.
FINNEY: This is also part of the way he does it. They're not going to do it in the legislation.
ABDUL: But when have Republicans talked about it? When have Republicans talked about it?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on, just a second, everybody.
SMILEY: Last comment --
PHILLIP: Emily -- finish so that we can allow George and because he is chopping up the business.
FINNEY: I think but the other thing to remember, the reason we were having this conversation, the reason he was on that podcast is because DOGE, Musk's program --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
FINNEY: --is about to hit the Social Security Administration. They've already talked about making 12 percent cuts in an administration that already is underfunded and understaffed. It already takes people longer than it should to get their Social Security checks. And people --
UNKNOWN: Thank you.
FINNEY: It's not just by the way, that's someone like you're welcome, that George or somebody's mother-in-law or mother. It's the people like us, people like me who worry about my mother.
UNKNOWN: Yes. FINNEY: And my uncle or family members who rely on Social Security.
What they're not understanding is that the burden isn't just on the individuals who are relying on Social Security. It's those of us who are in this generation where we're also caring for our -- our older relatives.
PHILLIP: All right, George.
WALLACE: You think I can talk now? Everybody's been talking but me. I want to interrupt somebody. I'm on the Comedy News Network. This is -- this is the Comedy News Network. This is my last time to hear what I'm getting ready to say. You're probably going to throw me off.
See, that's the problem with the world -- the problem with America. We got too many rich, old white men in congress. All of those people you were talking about are what? Millionaires. You know, here's another billionaire. His mommy is not going to miss money. She don't need to miss money. She got money.
SMILEY: Many people have died in this country for us to live the American dream, and so we can have millionaires and billionaires in this country for all of us.
ABDUL: Well, millionaires --
(CROSSTALK)
FINNEY: (inaudible) at this table.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL: Very wealthy people have served in Republican and Democrat administrations.
UNKNOWN: Yes. Of course.
ABDUL: It doesn't mean because they're wealthy that somehow they don't have a connection or they're not concerned about certain things.
WALLACE: Yes, it does. Yes, it does.
ABDUL: When it comes to Donald Trump --
PHILLIP: Hang on a second.
ABDUL: -- the Republican Party, has advocated -- the Republican party has said over and over again, no cuts to Social Security, no cuts to Medicare.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on. Okay. So, let me just interject here because a couple of things. One, one of the reasons this is on the table is because Elon Musk continues to put it on the table.
WALLACE: Yes. ABDUL: He did.
PHILLIP: He's using huge numbers to describe waste, fraud, and abuse at Social Security that's not backed up by any data. And this is how it's being received at some of the town halls. This is Chuck Grassley's district in Iowa.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: We're now seeing that we don't want people to call on the phone to change their direct deposit. Go to a local office. Try to get an appointment at a local office. Right now, you're waiting a month, and we're going to cut more staff? This is not right. If any -- and we do not want to see Social Security privatized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The cuts to the Social Security offices, that's already happening.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
PHILLIP: We were just talking to Congressman Lawler about an office that was closed --
UNKNOWN: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- in New York, and is listed on the DOGE website as a savings. So, when you see that, how do you think that's going to play politically?
WALLACE: I just think this is true all the way around. Don't mess with the older people that need this money coming in every month. That's the bottom line. Leave these people alone, and let these people enjoy their lives. I'm on Social Security. I'm old. I'm really old, and I depend on that money. Who you laughing at?
PAYNE: By the way, George, it's your money. It's your money.
FINNEY: You're right.
WALLACE: It's my money. I put that money in there, and I want my money.
FINNEY: Right. And we don't mix it --
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: I want my money, and I want it now.
FINNEY: But I think this point is really important. They've already cut Social Security. They're making a 12 percent cut to the staff at Social Security Administration. That is a cut to Social Security.
ABDUL: Those are employees, not Social Security.
FINNEY: Those are the people who are delivering the services.
ABDUL: Employees and benefits are not the same.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Tiffany, to that point, on the staff, because we -- you heard what that lady said at the town hall, okay? When you want your benefits, there's an issue, and you need to get it resolved. And you try to call and get an appointment, and they tell you come back in six months because we don't have enough people to handle you.
UNKNOWN: Twelve percent cut.
SMILEY: You mean, like, trying to get a hold of the IRS? Like, trying to get money back?
PHILLIP: Like trying to get a hold of the IRS. Like, trying to get an appointment at the V.A.
UNKNOWN: A passport.
SMILEY: It's ineffective and it's inefficient, and Elon's trying to fix that for the American people.
PHILLIP: Staff cuts are happening, okay? They are happening because of DOGE. How can you not say that that is going to have an effect on the benefits that people receive?
[22:40:00]
SMILEY: Well, it has nothing to do with the benefits that people are receiving.
PHILLIP: But people cannot receive their benefits.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- to process it.
SMILEY: But the system is archaic. It needs to be modernized, and that's what Elon is focused on doing for the American people.
PHILLIP: So --
SMILEY: And I think we can all agree at this table that there is waste, fraud and abuse in social security.
WALLACE: Sure.
SMILEY: Can we not agree on that?
FINNEY: But here's the way you do that. You start with the I.G.s instead of firing them because that's their jobs is --
WALLACE: -- is to find them. Yes.
FINNEY: -- to find the waste fraud and you start with that report. But they haven't done it. They've fired the I.G.s.
SMILEY: But they haven't done it.
FINNEY: They fired the I.G.s.
SMILEY: But why have they never done it? Then why have they never done it?
FINNEY: Are you kidding me? They have been.
WALLACE: Because we never wanted to cut it until now. Because we never wanted to cut it until right now.
SMILEY: They're not cutting it. They're making it more efficient so we --
FINNEY: They have been so we need more changes.
UNKNOWN: But there's a way to --
WALLACE: I thought you told me you were a Democrat? You told me that. You told me you were a Democrat.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: Didn't you tell me that?
PHILLIP: No, I'm sorry. Sorry. Very much not a Democrat, okay? Everyone --
WALLACE: You lied to me. You're just like Trump. You lied to him.
SMILEY: I never did. I was honest right away.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very much. George Wallace, thank you for joining us tonight.
WALLACE: I don't get a chance to go up on Elon Musk and everybody. I'm coming back tomorrow.
PHILLIP: All right. We'll see you tomorrow.
WALLACE: I'm coming back tomorrow.
PHILLIP: Coming up next for us, some sad breaking news tonight. George Foreman, the boxing legend and businessman has died. More on his incredible career. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:57]
VOICE-OVER: This is CNN breaking news.
PHILLIP: Tonight, the final bell rings for a boxing legend, George Foreman. The two-time heavyweight champion of the world and businessman who put grills in most of our kitchens has now passed away. He was 76 years old.
His family says he departed surrounding -- surrounded by a gaggle of his children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Foreman led an unexpected career, an unlikely rise in the ring and out. CNN's Stephanie Elam has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When you hear the name George Foreman, electric grilling may pop into mind.
GEORGE FOREMAN, TWO-TIME BOXING HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION AND BUSINESSMAN: Get ready to cook some burgers on the George Foreman family size grill.
ELAM (voice-over): But the affable pitchman was once one of the most feared heavyweight fighters in the world.
UNKNOWN: George Foreman, 257 pounds.
MIKE TYSON, FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION: Watching him box on when he was younger and stuff, he did a big ring galoot and stuff. And, that's how, like, I he was like the Mike Tyson before Mike Tyson.
FOREMAN (voice-over): One punch of mine was -- was equal to 20 of any other heavyweight champ.
ELAM (voice-over): Foreman's awesome punching power won him 76 matches in his career, 20 more than perhaps his fiercest competitor, Muhammad Ali. A rebellious teenage Foreman was introduced to boxing by legendary trainer Doc Broadus in 1966. Broadus encouraged the Houston Native to use the sport as a way to avoid gang life in the streets. It worked.
And by 1968, he won a gold medal for the U.S. Olympic team. The next year, he turned pro. Foreman won his first thirty seven professional fights, earning a shot at the heavyweight title against Smokin' Joe Frazier in 1973. Although considered the underdog, Foreman won by technical knockout in less than two rounds.
Then there was October 30th, 1974, the rumble in the jungle. The fight in Central Africa capitalized on the assumed beef between Foreman and Muhammad Ali, which Foreman says was far from the truth.
FOREMAN (voice-over): We never had any face to face confrontation. It was -- when I met him in the ring, that was as close as we had gotten. I heard that on the news. He called me the Frankenstein monster, but he was only saying that because it was true.
ELAM (voice-over): It was one of the most watched live TV events of all time, and the world had a front row seat to the only knockout defeat of George Foreman.
FOREMAN: I felt like he threw maybe 150. I still feel those punches. I just underestimated one of the greatest fighters of all time. ELAM (voice-over): Foreman made several attempts to regain the title and came up empty. With his back on the ropes, he would later say he had spiritual awakening and ultimately became an ordained minister.
But the man of the cloth didn't completely throw in the boxing towel. In 1994, a then 45-year- old Foreman defeated a 26-year-old to reclaim the heavyweight champion belt. He held on to it for three years, hanging up his gloves after losing his title to Shannon Briggs. In retirement, the man with the iron fist reemerged as the man with the electric grill, the Foreman Grill.
FOREMAN: We sold first five thousand, ten thousand, five hundred thousand. And one day, we looked up to this day over 100 million.
ELAM (voice-over): His lean, mean grilling machine reportedly netted him hundreds of millions of dollars. Along the way, the man affectionately known as "Big George" wrote a few books, starred in several movies and television series, and show the world with the right combination, you can win anything.
FOREMAN: And I talk to young kids all the time. They want to be famous in sports. Love what you're doing, but understand that athletics is just a small part of your life. Do other things, too. You can be heavyweight champion for the world, but there's more to it than that.
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:54:55]
PHILLIP: The comedians of "Have I Got News For You" are back, and they have some things to say about those angry town halls this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY WOOD JR. COMEDIAN: Question. Does anyone know what Mike Flood had to say about Trump's now infamous Oval Office meeting with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy?
MICHAEL IAN BLACK, COMEDIAN: Zelenskyy needs to apologize for insulting our president by asking for help in the war that he didn't start. That -- except that he did, right?
WOOD JR.: Here's flood.
REP. MIKE FLOOD (R-NE): I do believe that that White House meeting was a disaster, and I believe that President Zelenskyy should have signed that agreement.
WOOD JR.: He has with the setup. He's like, I believe President Zelenskyy should have signed it. Amber, I have another Nebraska question.
AMBER RUFFIN, COMEDIAN: Yeah.
WOOD JR.: How mad does a white person have to be to give the double thumbs down?
RUFFIN: It's the first time I've ever seen such a name.
BLACK: I'll be honest. I don't even know that I can do that.
UNKNOWN: It's really unprecedented.
WOOD JR.: Because, like, when white people needed a double -- that's like when black people go --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You can catch an all-new episode tomorrow at 9 P.M. on CNN. And record heat, unceasing disasters, billions in damage, lives eroded, or even erased, on this week's "Whole Story", CNN's chief climate correspondent Bill Weir goes country hopping to see how communities are trying to find new ways to survive climate crises. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After 2025 began with the worst urban wildfire in American history, thousands of burned out families and businesses across Los Angeles County are wondering what comes next and studying what survived.
WEIR: Greg, I'm standing in front of your creation and it looks like it was sort of airlifted in here after the fire. It is so relatively unscathed. How much of that is luck? How much of that was by design?
WEIR (voice-over): After this Pacific Palisades house went viral for its survival, architect Greg Chasen told me that the vacant lot next door was a firebreak made of luck. But the house is a definition of fire adaptation with a wall instead of a picket fence around native landscaping, tempered glass windows with metal frames.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: And Bill Weir joins me now. Bill, that's pretty amazing. I mean, is this the future? I don't know. I can't speak to the aesthetics of it, but is this the future of how you have to construct homes in that part of the world?
WEIR (on-camera): Yeah. A lot of people say it looks like a monopoly house, right?
PHILLIP: Right.
WEIR: Just basic.
PHILLIP: Don't want to say it, but yes.
WEIR: But it was very deliberate design for fire country, where there's no elaborate eaves or gables or roof fence to suck embers into the attic and create a fire there. And that was by design. And, you know, the settlers who came to L.A., they went with English
tutors, they went with all kinds of architecture that just suits personal taste, but not a lot of people until now were thinking about, wait a minute, what's the most resilient way to build in this ecosystem?
And that was part of this trip. I just went looking for the survivors, and what was their secret? What was the design of this house that survived this hurricane when no one else did, and I learned some amazing, amazing things.
PHILLIP: Yeah. These are the cities that are a lot of pressure to allow people to get back quickly, to rebuild as quickly as possible. Do you get the sense that resiliency is going to be at the heart of the rebuilding?
WEIR: Afraid not, because the politics of getting people back, I think the Palisades today just issued, I think, the first three building permits there. And there was a lot of talk about let's do this properly, you know, since we have to jackhammer up the streets to evacuate the gas lines, let's just keep the gas lines out of there and then bury the power lines at the same time so when the next fire comes you don't have to worry about that as a source.
But there's just not the -- the infrastructure, the building permits. Paradise, California, which had this devastating fire over five years ago, they had a library of approved building permits, a 120 different designs that somebody could choose from. That might be a smart way to go in Los Angeles to kind of fast track it. But, yeah, it seems like that ounce of prevention goes out the door --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
WEIR: -- when there's politics, speed, and money involved.
PHILLIP: Yeah. People are really desperate to get back to their homes.
WEIR: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Bill Weir, thank you very much. Don't miss the brand new episode of "The Whole Story". It airs Sunday night at 8 P.M. right here on CNN. Bill, thank you so much.
WEIR: My pleasure.
PHILLIP: And thank you for watching "NewsNight". We'll see you tomorrow morning, 10 A.M. eastern with our conversation show, "Table for Five". And you can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
(VOICE-OVER)
This is CNN breaking news.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Laura Coates. We've got some major breaking news on multiple fronts on this Friday night including the death of two-time heavyweight boxing champion and Olympic gold medalist, George Foreman.
[23:00:00]
He was known for his rivalry with Muhammad Ali, as well as using his colorful personality to help fuel a multi-million dollar grilling business. Foreman was 76. We'll have more on his death and his life in just a moment and speak with broadcast legend Bob Costas about his legacy.
