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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Judge Orders White House to Preserve Signal Messages; Pentagon Officials Concerned About Hegseth's Leadership; Trend Emerges of Trump Apparently Unaware of Events. Elon Musk Talks About Attacks On DOGE In A Fox News Interview; Stefanik Stays In Congress. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 27, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, oversharer and underqualified. The Signal scandal renews questions about if Pete Hegseth --
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I know exactly what I'm doing.
BERMAN: -- is the right man to lead the Pentagon.
Plus, out of the loop. The president says he is playing catch up on his administration's early mistakes, but is it really plausible he doesn't know, or just a way to give him plausible deniability?
Also Musk marshals, his defense, the billionaire borrows from the boss by branding his critics --
ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: You know, who complains the loudest, the fraudsters.
BERMAN: -- as crooks.
And Elise Stefanik leaves the Trump administration before she joins it, as Republicans worry about their political doors closing.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Ashley Davis, Chuck Rocha, Neera Tanden, and Roy Wood.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN (on camera): All right. Good evening. I'm John Berman in New York in for Abby Philip. No sleep, no problem.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, second guessing. Tonight, there are plenty of people in and around the Trump administration going maybe we backed the wrong guy. The guy in question is the Pentagon chief, Pete Hegseth, unless you're President Trump, then it might be Michael Waltz, which we'll get to in a second.
The questions about Hegseth are coming from within, if he is Mr. Right for defense secretary, and the questions are coming because of the Signal scandal. New CNN reporting found a chorus of government officials wondering if the major screw up is so major that the normal rules of workplaces will apply, that a mistake of this size ends with him losing his job.
The well of skepticism is deep, one official says, if anyone else in uniform put military plans in a single chat, something junior analysts know not to do, they would be court-martialed. Another official said, Hegseth is in the bullseye now.
For one military spouse, her thoughts are a little more unvarnished.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KENDALL BROWN, SAYS HER HUSBAND DEPLOYED NEAR YEMEN: All it would take is one of those (BLEEP) phones falling into the wrong hands, and those mother (BLEEP) would have sent hundreds of troop members into a (BLEEP) ambush.
Every single Republican member of Congress better be on national news within the next few (BLEEP) hours, calling for the (BLEEP) resignation of every single mother (BLEEP) on that group chat up to and including J.D. Vance.
There is no world in which it is acceptable for any one of those mother (BLEEP) to still have their job by the end of today. If any person in the military did something like this, those mother (BLEEP) would not only lose their job, lose their rank, lose their retirement, they would be in front of a (BLEEP) military judge before you could (BLEEP) blink. They should not face any less punishment.
If you are a Republican member of Congress and you aren't on news within the next few hours, calling for their resignations, doing everything that you can to get these pathetic, (BLEEP) dangerous men out of office, I don't ever want to (BLEEP) hear you say you support the troops ever again, because nobody (BLEEP), you don't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: All right. That was a video, the Daily Beast wrote up an article about her, she feels very strongly. Other media sources, you know, CNN's talking to people inside the Pentagon, The New York Times, did an article talking to pilots about how upset they are when this was posted.
So, different levels of passion there, Scott, but could you understand why they feel that way?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. I mean, I think different people have different emotional reactions to things and I don't begrudge anybody their opinion. I think for Secretary Hegseth, I do think he has an opportunity here to try to continue to show people that he should be in this job, that he's qualified for the job. He needs to earn the respect of people who've been in, you know, the Pentagon and the military for a long time.
But he wasn't put there necessarily to fit in with that crowd. He was put in there as an outsider. If I were him, I would focus on the things that went right about this, which is that he led a team in an operation here that went off flawlessly in terms of our military action against the rebels in Yemen, and we're going to continue to do that.
So, you know, there's -- look, some of this went right, some of this went wrong. But anytime you make a mistake, it's a teachable moment, but it's also a chance for you to show that, hey, I know what happened here and I know how to fix it in the future.
[22:05:00]
CHUCK ROCHA, PDOCAST CO-HOST, THE LATINO VOTE: Here's the real problem, is that the first time I heard about this, I'm not going to say Pete Hegseth is qualified or not qualified. I personally don't think he's not qualified. He did serve in the Armed Forces, but I also played football for nine years and I'm not going to be able to coach the Commanders even though they have a great quarterback.
Soon as I heard about texting and Pete Hegseth, my first thought was not, did he do war plans? My first thought was, what did he text somebody that he shouldn't have texted? And just my thought of that's my first reaction is probably how a lot of folks are thinking because of everything he went through in his confirmation hearing, and I think that unto itself is we not also, as Americans, are thinking about the best of the situation, I automatically jump to the worst.
ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL IN G.W. BUSH ADMIN: Go ahead.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Well, I mean, I do think that fundamental issue here is accountability. And, you know, what we learned today is that there may well be accountability in the criminal justice system because now you have a judge who's actually asking cabinet level officials of the Trump administration to preserve evidence.
And I think there's been a lot of discussion about why don't people apologize and other issues. But, fundamentally, the question here is also whether there's criminal activity in putting classified material in a Signal chat. And I think that is a very serious issue and one of the reasons why a judge is looking at this evidence. And I think this is a kind of crucial question going forward.
Now, I wish we could get accountability from Republican Senators and Republican House members, but we will, I think, have it in the justice system.
DAVIS: If it's classified, and, obviously, that's what's going to be determined. It was very sensitive information. It was a horrible mistake, as we all can agree. I think what Roger Wicker's doing as head of the Armed Services, he's asking for accountability. I think that was the right move. And if nothing else comes out, the fact that the Democrats are going so strong after Hegseth is just going to strengthen Hegseth's stain. I mean, this is just politics one way or the other.
And it's very interesting to me that everyone's turned kind of to Hegseth and not Waltz, which I'm not saying either are wrong or right. I'm not even making that. But it's the -- everyone went after Hegseth during his confirmation. I think that this is another thing that they're doing towards him. But I think he survives unless someone's lying. And I don't know if it's classified or not. I mean, we've all dealt with classified information before. I mean, this is --
BERMAN: Not like this. I bet you haven't dealt with it like this.
DAVIS: I was at Homeland Security and dealt with a lot of classified information, yes.
ROCHA: I promise you, I never got my hands on them.
ROY WOOD JR., CNN HOST: But should the Democrats not continue to keep press with this issue? If I fought against your confirmation because I feel like you're not qualified for your job and then you get the job and then in your first couple of months at the job, you do something crazy on the job, I'm just supposed to go all and say, all right, cool, just let it ride? No. You have to turn up the heat because the next mistake could be something far more detrimental.
I don't think that you just let this slide and I don't think that it's fair for Republicans to just go, okay, okay, nothing to see here. No. What was that? I know what I saw. That was a huge mistake with ramifications down the road. So, let's just shore it up and make sure that this doesn't happen again.
DAVIS: But that's what Wicker's doing, saying --
BERMAN: So, Roger Wicker, chair of the Armed Service Committee in the Senate, along with Jack Reed, the ranking member, they have written a letter calling for an -- you know, an independent investigation inside the DOD, inspector general, is the word I'm looking for on those, the inspector general to look into it inside the DOD.
The civil case, which people are talking about here, is there was a lawsuit filed. Judge Boasberg, the federal district judge, who was on the immigration case said, you've just got to retain the records, which is par for the course, which would happen in any case. You got to hang on to these Signal records here. So, that is happening at the same time.
An inspector general review, is that enough? If it's nothing else besides the inspector general review, is that enough?
TANDEN: Absolutely not. Of course, there should be hearings. You know, in every administration, there are regular hearings. Pete Hegseth should just testify. It's not that -- how is that such a strange request to have him testify and answer questions about why he put up the location of our bombing in a Signal chat? Basic question, it seems like you should be accountable to reporters. But I think I would also just say here, I mean, what you're seeing now is the consequences, which is he is supposed to lead the military. He has people throughout the military who just openly acknowledged that if it were a, you know, regular officer who did something like this, they would be immediately terminated. And how can you lead?
I mean, the military requires accountability. It's the most accountable organization. You were supposed to be accountable to higher ups. Politics isn't supposed to have to do it any -- to do with any of this. And the fact that that's happening, that they're just basically saying, nothing to do here, is a big problem, I think, for those who believe in accountability.
JENNINGS: I think Republicans aren't interested in any lectures on accountability in the military after the Biden administration. I mean, the bar for getting rid of a secretary of defense is apparently pretty high.
[22:10:02]
You can get 13 people killed and go AWOL and not tell the commander- in-chief, and that's not a fireable offense.
TANDEN: I'm sorry.
BERMAN: He had to testify. Lloyd Austin had to testify --
(CROSSTALKS)
TANDEN: Every single one of them has to -- when? When is he testifying? When is he testifying?
JENNINGS: You want to do it tonight? I mean --
TANDEN: Sure.
JENNINGS: I'm sure he will. I'm sure he will. And he will answer. And, you know, he's a Senate-confirmed cabinet officer, so he will go to Congress and he will answer questions. But these lectures about accountability and national security after letting 10 million people into the country who raped and murdered and committed violent acts and no remorse or accountability --
TANDEN: What are you talking about?
JENNINGS: No more lectures, no more lectures about national security.
TANDEN: That is a different thing. First of all, if you want to argue that two wrongs, if you say them make a right, that's fine. But that is not -- that's not an -- if I said, according to you, but that is not a rationale that you just excuse this kind of behavior, which is what you just did.
JENNINGS: I don't excuse it.
TANDEN: You just did. JENNINGS: I don't excuse the behavior. Every -- since this has happened, it's been pretty clear to me what happened here. A mistake was made on the comms and something very, very right was done on the military side from the commander-in-chief on down operationally.
TANDEN: Right.
JENNINGS: And that's a fact.
TANDEN: And so why is it that it's still we don't have free traffic through the area around the Red Sea? I mean, you've made this point a lot. It's actually not that the military just --
JENNINGS: I don't. Why is it? Why is it that this is a huge problem? Maybe we should go back in time and decide why is it a huge problem? Why is it -- why are these rebels going crazy right now? Why is Trump heading to step in? What did the previous commander-in-chief do?
TANDEN: Why are the Israelis so angry with our distribution of this information? These are really important questions.
JENNINGS: You tell, you tell me why the Houthis are running wild over there. You work for the commander-in-chief to let it happen. You tell me.
WOOD: Mistakes are not, at least the previous administration used the right device to talk about the secrets.
JENNINGS: You're worried about the devices and not the fact that the rebels harassed ships all during Biden's administration and nothing is done?
TANDEN: And they're still arresting ships afterwards. They're still harassing ships. Get an update on what's going on.
DAVIS: No, here's just what I was going to say is the more that people are attacking Hegseth right now is just making him stronger. And I keep wanting to say this is what happened during the election. When you go after certain people, this is what happened to Brett Kavanaugh. During our times, if the Democrats continue to like what Congresswoman Omar today saying she's going to impeach him, great, Republicans are going to love to hear that.
(CROSSTALKS)
BERMAN: I want to read one quote from Maggie Haberman from The New York Times are talking about, where President Trump's anger is directed. It appears to be, according to them, with Michael Waltz. This article says, Mr. Trump, according to two people familiar with this thinking, who described it on the condition of anonymity, has been livid at Mr. Waltz for his role in inadvertently including the editor of The Atlantic in the high level chat and at the apparent difficulty in holding his seat in Florida. We'll talk about that in a little bit. But when President Trump has the chance to talk about this, he's pointed the finger at Waltz, not Hegseth. ROCHA: Because the president has been running. Scott Jennings talked about it. Other Republicans talked about it. He's been running nonstop. I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this and getting all kinds of things done. And a lot of Republicans are very happy about this. This puts eggs on his face and he's going to be mad when the spotlight comes off of successes that he sees his administration doing in his eyes.
JENNINGS: I actually totally agree with this. This was a hugely successful mission. The decision was righteous. The strike was the exact right thing to do, and it was executed flawlessly. So, the fact that we're spending all this time talking about something other than the decision --
ROCHA: That's why the president is mad.
JENNINGS: And so he has a right to be mad. He's the commander-in- chief. He has a right to be mad at the situation.
DAVIS: General, everybody.
JENNINGS: And it's up to him to decide --
(CROSSTALKS)
ROCHA: The special election, why was that number in his phone, all of those things add up to it.
DAVIS: Which is why he tried changing the conversation last night during this press conference.
TANDEN: He's clearly mad at Waltz for giving the information to our border. He is not mad that they put attack plans on Signal chats. That's not what he is mad about, because if you were mad about that, you'd be mad at Pete Hegseth instead of massively defending him. What he is really mad is he got caught, people got -- discovered this because they stupidly put a reporter on.
But that's like let's not beat around the bush of what he is upset about. It's not the actual fact that, oh, by the way, you could have put people's lives in danger from putting this information on chat. Those concerns are last in mind here.
BERMAN: All right. There is an emerging trend of President Trump being unaware or pretending to be unaware about a variety of important topics. We'll discuss that.
Plus, Elon Musk and members of his team sit for an interview responding to critics and calling their critics fraudsters
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
BERMAN: All right. Tonight, Scotty doesn't know, and apparently Donald Trump doesn't know either. That's a fantastic Matt Damon reference, by the way. The president of the United States has spent his first two months in office trying out a new tactic to not answer questions from reporters. The tactic, feign ignorance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I know nothing about it. I did not.
I know nothing about that.
I don't know when it was signed, because I didn't sign it.
I don't know anything about Signal. I wasn't involved in this.
I wasn't involved with it. I don't -- I wasn't there.
REPORTER: Nothing classified was shared?
TRUMP: Well, that's what I've heard. I don't know. I'm not sure. You'll have to ask the various people involved. I really don't know.
REPORTER: Have you been briefed about the soldiers in Lithuania who are missing?
TRUMP: No, I haven't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: I don't know.
ROCHA: It wasn't me.
JENNINGS: He wasn't involved in a Signal thing. He was not involved in it.
BERMAN: There's a lot of I don't knows.
JENNINGS: How was he supposed to know about it if he wasn't involved in it?
[22:20:00]
TANDEN: Seriously, I do think that the fact that the president of the United States was not briefed on four missing soldiers, I mean, having experienced been in a White House, that is something you would brief. So, I don't know, maybe Mike Waltz was pretty busy those last couple of days, but somebody should have briefed the president on that.
I do think it's like just a little odd that he says he doesn't know anything about things that he's actually supposedly signed. Maybe he signed it via autopen or something else, but he definitely has spoke -- I mean, he's, he has signed proclamations and then he says, I don't know anything about that. That is also a serious problem.
DAVIS: I would rather have him act like he doesn't know about something, which I'm sure he probably does know about some of this stuff than not talk to the press at all. I mean, he's the most accessible president that I've ever seen in modern history. I mean, you know, your boss never talked to the media ever.
TANDEN: Sure. I think -- look, I totally hear the point. People should talk to the press a lot. It's just you're not actually conveying information if you don't know anything about anything going on.
WOOD: I would rather the president just get on T.V. and say, I don't know, than, as opposed to some of the other stuff that he's said in the past when he's pretending to know. So, just say, I don't know.
TANDEN: But maybe he should know some of these things.
(CROSSTALKS)
DAVIS: From a security perspective, he probably like -- especially on the soldiers, he probably knows, but, by the way, that's still an active national security issue for our military. So, he probably can't -- I mean, to his defense on that, he probably can't comment on it.
TANDEN: Okay.
ROCHA: Or shouldn't until you have all the facts.
JENNINGS: Here's something about being the president is, you know, when you go talking out of your ass, things happen. And so maybe you shouldn't. I mean, maybe it's smart.
TANDEN: Or you could say, I'm -- or you know, presidents, like President Bush or Obama or others would've said that's, I'm aware, I'm not going to say anymore because it's an active issue. That's what they say. He said, I don't know what you're talking about. That's a different thing.
ROCHA: I guarantee you that he could tell you exactly how many woke professors are in the country, or how many boys is playing girls volleyball, or how many, quote/unquote, illegal aliens came in yesterday. He focuses on what he wants to focus on and this ain't one of them.
JENNINGS: All good things to know, by the way.
(CROSSTALKS)
BERMAN: So, selective ignorance, you're saying?
ROCHA: I have used it to my advantage many times.
DAVIS: Just like selective hearing people.
BERMAN: The single thing is interesting though. Because from the very beginning, his ignorance there seemed to be deliberate. He was not on that signal chain. But the idea that he didn't know about it when he was first asked about it, and the extent to which he doesn't know seems rather deliberate.
ROCHA: He wants to be associated with things that are positive. That's who Donald Trump is, and that's what makes him a communications genius. And I use the word genius when it comes to communication, not public policy or public welfare, but he knows how to communicate. And when it's negative, he's like, what? Me? Don't know nothing about that. Let's talk about some tariffs or something that's good for somebody.
JENNINGS: If he didn't know and he didn't have the facts, or he hadn't been briefed on it, what is the alternative here? To go out and make something up or to say, I don't know, I haven't been told any? My understanding is he did know about it. He wasn't on it. Maybe he wasn't even aware what Signal is.
I mean, it is not inconceivable that the president, when, you know, I didn't see the timestamps on these questions, didn't actually have enough information to comment publicly at the time on any of these matters. It's not out of the ordinary for a president to hold back until they have all the facts or all the things they need to know to make a legitimate comment.
TANDEN: Or what would be more concerning, and I think this might be more concerning with the soldiers, or they're not telling him and they're not actually sharing information or they worry about what he'll say, so they preserve it, you know? I mean, I think this is a deeply kind of disturbing thing on basic information.
On some political issue, I totally understand. I can even understand perhaps plausible deniability about Signal Gate. But I think on national security issues, like issues where soldiers are possibly lost, it is pretty inexcusable that he has not been briefed and he can't speak to it.
JENNINGS: And what's worse? A president not having all the information he needs to make a legitimate comment, so he holds back in the moment before being ready to make a comment, or, I don't know, willfully lying to the American people about the condition of the president of the United States, which went on for four years in this country by all your colleagues.
TANDEN: That is totally wrong.
JENNINGS: What's worse?
TANDEN: That is totally wrong.
JENNINGS: I hope read all the books that are coming out.
TANDEN: Joe Biden, when asked about soldiers lost, was briefed and said it. And so you think Joe Biden had problems? At least he was able to do that. What's the excuse for Donald Trump if he's so capable?
JENNINGS: I'm just saying, I mean, guys are upset that Trump is exhibiting some, I want to get more facts and I'm going to be lectured by the people who lied to the American people about the condition of the president.
TANDEN: Oh my God. No way. Nobody -- JENNINGS: I'm not going to take it.
TANDEN: That's -- first of all, that's outrageous. It's outrageous.
JENNINGS: Is it?
TANDEN: Yes, it is. I did not lie.
JENNINGS: You think the truth was told? You think the truth was told?
TANDEN: I will say --
JENNINGS: Did the White House tell the truth?
TANDE: I will look forward to this. I will look forward this discussion.
JENNINGS: So, you all believe the truth was told about Biden?
WOOD: Scott, do you want government or do you want your look back?
[22:25:000]
Because even if all of that happened in the past, we're in the present now. So, we need a president that is capable of --
JENNINGS: And so what? He said, I don't know. What? Did it hurt your life that he said, I don't know?
WOOD: You can't keep using that Biden did it, Biden did it, Biden did it.
JENNINGS: Sure, I can. Of course I can.
WOOD: You can't (INAUDIBLE) for four years for the country to move forward.
JENNINGS: I 100 percent can.
WOOD: You cannot.
JENNINGS: Biden wrote it for four years on Trump and Obama wrote it for eight years on George W. Bush. You're damn right.
TANDEN: It's just a little inconsistent to say it's wrong with one and the other. That's the point.
JENNINGS: I'm just saying.
TANDEN: That's the point.
JENNINGS: It's seems like selective outrage to me to say, well, we're worried about Donald Trump not knowing.
ROCHA: I think all of us who've ever met or been around Donald Trump knows that if somebody would've told him soldiers were missing, and if he would've been briefed on that, and then a reporter ask about him, because he does this with every other thing that he does either way, we're going find them, we're going to kick whoever's ass is messing with them and we're going to burn everything down around them if they don't bring them back right now,
DAVIS: Well, then he should have been told.
ROCHA: We know that's how he would respond if he knew about it.
WOOD: Trump would then start blabbering some of the secrets on the back. We're going to find them. We going to get them SEAL Team 6s in there right now, Black Hawk helicopter is at 300 feet is going to the latitude, longitude. And he would say too much. So, maybe you can't tell me.
TANDEN: That's a little worse if they're not briefing him because he would spill the beans, then we're --
BERMAN: That's what Signal's for.
TANDEN: That's a little scary.
BERMAN: That's what Signal's for.
DAVIS: Well, that is very hypothetical. I don't.
BERMAN: Next, Elon Musk reveals some members of his mysterious team. Hear what they claim to be finding and why Musk is calling his critics fraudsters.
Plus, Donald Trump suddenly pulls the nomination of one his big picks for his cabinet. Why? Over concerns about his majority in Congress.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A revolution tonight. That's what Elon Musk is calling his oft legally challenged dismemberment of the federal bureaucracy. The billionaire Sancho Panza of Donald Trump's Don Quixote just gave a new interview to Fox. In it, he's taking on all critics and accusing opponents of DOGE's deep cost cutting of tilting at windmills.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND DOGE DIRECTOR: Usually, when they attack DOGE, they never attack any of the specifics. So, they'll -- they'll say what we're doing is somehow unconstitutional or illegal or whatever. We're like, well, which line of the cost savings do you disagree with? And they can't point to any.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Spent plenty of time on the naysayers saying that people who protest what he is doing doth protest too much for a very specific reason.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: You know who complains the loudest and with the most amount of fake righteous indignation? The fraudsters. That's -- it's a tell.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I think that most people, common sense- wise, would say the fraud's got to end.
MUSK: Yeah.
BAIER: They're concerned about the 94-year-old mother who skips a check or somehow doesn't get what she's supposed to get.
MUSK: Right. And what we're trying to say is actually that the 94 year-old, grandmother is actually, as a result of DOGE's work, going to get her check. She's not going to be robbed by fraudsters like she's getting robbed today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Roy, is Elon Musk saving grandma?
ROY WOOD JR., COMEDIAN: Yeah, I think he is. And I think Elon should go and have a town hall in some of those districts where grandma lives and explain it to grandma's face. I'm sure it'll go well.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRES: Yeah. I think -- I think he saying that only fraudsters are mad when the 80,000 veterans who've been fired are mad and the senior citizens who, you know, for weeks thought they couldn't call anymore to get their benefits and now they can call.
It's a little unclear, so, or veterans like Carla Allen who like lives in Wyoming has been a veteran serving -- protecting other veterans from suicide. She's been doing this work. She just got fired. I really think that people who are, angry about this are people who are -- who served our country, who are protecting other people and, we should all be concerned about fraud. But to say that anybody who's upset about this is a fraudster when it's so many people, so many veterans and others who, who are being really hurt.
ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER WH OFFICIAL IN G.W. BUSH ADMIN: The other part of that story that wasn't reported is the billion dollars that was spent on a survey asking if people like parks or not. I mean, there's a major issue in regards to overspending in our government. We have the most debt that we've ever had. What's the answer?
CHUCK ROCHA, PODCAST CO-HOST,"THE LATINO VOTE": We've accumulated most of that debt under Donald Trump --
DAVIS: It doesn't matter.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCHA: -- and Musk has $11 billion of contacts himself. So, give up one of them.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVIS: It doesn't matter. We're here where we are. And we also got a lot of debt under George W.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCHA: Here's what they do in the interview -- the ones really unpopular --
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The one where he rescued our astronauts or a different one?
ROCHA: Different one. And he threw in the dolphins as well? Like, I must say it.
BERMAN: Chuck was saying he's unpopular right now. Recent CNN polling meet shows that the majority of Americans do have an unfavorable opinion toward Elon Musk. It's 35 percent favorable, 53% percent unfavorable. The question I have about what he said right there, though, is do you think he's right that people can't point to specifics of what he's done?
TANDEN: Absolutely not. In fact, he -- he himself has undid a lot of what he's done, right? He, like, he goes around, he hurts a group of people, and then they undo it. And then they just break something else, and then they undo it. I mean, you know, the fact that they fire people who protect the -- who are protecting nuclear weapons and then have to hire them, and they do this over and over again, that's not government efficiency.
[22:35:01]
You would fire an H.R. manager who did -- who they had that level of incompetence, who fired all these people and then begged them to come back. So, I don't think that's efficiency, and I don't think that's the government working well.
JENNINGS: I mean, the amount of money that we spend at the federal government and the amount of explosion in spending from 2019 until today is unconscionable. The size of the government is unconscionable. Just five years. I'm just talking about the last five years.
The explosion in spending and the explosion in the size of the government. That alone is enough of a reason for a president to appoint someone and to say, does the government have to be this big and does it have to cost this much? That's number one.
Number two, every single American knows there is bloat, there is waste, and there is fraud, and they've been waiting for someone to come along and look for it. And there is latitude and some political leash for people to find it, even when mistakes are made, which he is -- Elon himself has acknowledged, we may make a mistake, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
If they make one mistake, you can't call off the effort because the effort is worth saving the country's fiscal future.
TANDEN: I agree you can't. I agree you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and that's why it would be great if they had people who had some knowledge of what these agencies did and didn't fire and rehire them. And actually, you know, the number place the government spends want money, the highest -- with a place where we invest the most, we spend the most, are on tax and expenditures.
We spend 1.9 trillion more than on seat social security or Medicare or Medicaid. No one's looking at that. There is a lot of bloat there. There's a lot of tax breaks for special interest. But, you know, that might offend some of the President's donors or others. So, look --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You're saying you can raise taxes? Is that what you want?
TANDEN: I'm saying why don't you get rid of the some of the special interests like oil and gas tax breaks?
UNKNOWN: Oh, by the way --
JENNINGS: So, yeah, raise taxes. So, instead of cutting spending, raise taxes. That's a Democrat move (ph).
TANDEN: No, no. What I'm saying --
JENNINGS: They want to cut spending. They want to raise taxes. And we should run on it. Run on it.
TANDEN: I'm saying -- I'm saying, we should get -- we should stop. I will run on the fact that we should end some of the tax breaks for special interest, and I'm sorry that you are in favor of that. I think that's a mistake by the way.
JENNINGS: I'm in favor of lower taxes and --
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: I think it's amazing that you're more interested in -- in basically cutting Social Security services to seniors than you are to looking at these services. Well, they're still -- they're still fired 9000 people who provide services to security.
JENNINGS: I'm quite certain of the bureaucracy.
TANDEN: Really? Are you serious? You're not -- you're not worried about people having to travel --
(CROSSTALK)
ROCHA: -- they are trying hard. But these two are talking all of my time. Every time we get on this show, I'm tired of them talking. Listen. The reason that they did the town hall is that he needs to get out in front of people and show that he's real and that he's doing something good or try to make that case because to your point, the popularity is low.
I run campaigns for a living. Right now, Democrats aren't running ads against Donald Trump. They're running ads against Elon Musk. That's why he's out in front of us because he needs to be like, I'm doing good things. Let me remind you what I'm doing that's good. And he's going to sift the American people buy it because right now he's an Achilles' heel.
DAVIS: And the good thing is Donald Trump's not running or Donald Trump's not running again. I even know what everyone's going to say about --
BERMAN: Just about what Steve Bannon says.
DAVIS: Despite, you know, we're not going to change constitution. And Elon Musk isn't running for anything. So, I think that they feel that the -- the country is more important than their popularity right now.
WOOD JR.: I just want to think you can just keep going. What about the savings? What about the savings and not look at the expenditures and the consequences of some of those expenditures? There's been a lot of rushes to judgment and some of the cuts that DOGE has been making and Elon doing a single interview with a bunch of other employees. What? I assume -- where's the lady that's supposed to be in charge of DOGE?
ROCHA: She was on vacation maybe.
WOOD JR.: Where was she?
ROCHA: She wasn't there.
TANDEN: Yeah.
WOOD JR.: She wasn't. I haven't seen an interview yet. Does she come in later?
ROCHA: It looked like white boy, fight club to me.
WOOD JR.: So, then you're not -- explain like, there's -- there's a lot of questions, and I think those questions are fair. And if it's so efficient and if it's so dope and if it's so amazing, then I don't think it's a bad thing if you wait a couple months and go a little bit slow. Donald Trump appointed a --
(CROSSTALK)
WOOD JR.: It's all what we need in exactly.
JENNINGS: That's -- that's -- this is the Washington. This this is how it works. Well, let's just wait. Maybe we should just look at it. Maybe we should just study it a little bit.
BERMAN: You see, Roy, what is inside of Washington?
(CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: That's the mentality. That's the mentality.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINNGS: This is what the Democrats want to do.
UNKNOWN: Or Scott, let's --
UNKNOWN: Or maybe we--
JENNINGS: This is what Washington does.
DAVID: Let's just give a billion dollars and just announce about the parks.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: We'll just pull you down slowly under the quick sand and then nothing ever happens. And naturally we get a $40 million --
WOOD JR.: Debt.
JENNINGS: That's how you get it.
TANDEN: Maybe -- maybe you should actually think before you fire veterans. I don't know. Maybe that's a radical thing these days to say that 80,000 veterans who are protecting people's mental health and stopping them from committing suicide is something that we should care about.
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: I'm sorry. We all don't.
WOOD JR.: Yay the troops.
BERMAN: All right. Next, Elise Stefanik is staying in Congress, which she's been trying to get out of for the last few months. The President pulling her nomination to be ambassador to the United Nations because Republicans are getting nervous about their majority in Congress.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:44:33]
BERMAN: All right. It is a phrase you hear a lot in Washington. You serve at the pleasure of the president. Well, Donald Trump is now deciding it would please him more to keep Elise Stefanik in Congress. The congresswoman was slated to be the new U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Now, he wants to keep her where she has been in Congress, focused on keeping the Republican majority. The President posted on Truth Social today, "It is essential that we maintain every Republican seat in Congress.
[22:45:00] I don't want to take a chance on anyone else running for Elise's seat. The people love Elise and with her, we have nothing to worry about come election day. There are others that can do a good job at the United Nations." Ouch. Chuck.
ROCHA: There is -- I have never worked in the White House. I've never worked for a senator. I've never been paid to be beautiful on TV. I run campaigns for a living. And what's going on right now is there is a groundswell of excitement with Democrats. You can judge one special election against another. It's not the November election Donald Trump won.
Donald Trump carried all the battleground states, but two things can be right at the same time. And that is right now, two nights ago in Pennsylvania, there was a special election for a state senate seat that Donald Trump carried by 15 points that the Democrats won in a special election. That's just one election.
There's a Florida election coming up Tuesday night and a Wisconsin, Supreme Court coming up, and you're going to see a groundswell there, as well. The Stefanik race is a 60-40 Trump race. She wanted handily, he wanted handily. And if they're worried about that congressional race because they have a slim margin, so they don't want to give it up.
And they think she can strongly carry it instead of somebody new, if she's there, think about all the other races that didn't perform as good as hers. And there's a 28 races that didn't perform as good as hers that you have to get to before you even get to her, so there's an opportunity there if they're worried about this safe red seat.
BERMAN: I'll tell you what has surprised me in the reporting is they're not just concerned about keeping that slim majority in Congress if she vacates the seat, if the seat is open, that they are actually nervous about in a special election losing that race.
ROCHA: Right and then --
BERMAN: -- and there does seem to be genuine fear.
ROCHA: And in Upstate New York, we should say this about New York and give Republicans credit for this as a Democratic strategist. Republicans did better in New York and California in the last election than they ever have done.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
ROCHA: So, the thing was moving in the right direction, but two Democrats flipped Republican seats at the same time, two Democrat from Republican.
JENNINGS: Here's something that's true right now. I think you would acknowledge this. Democrats have a turnout advantage in special elections, off year elections. Democrats turn out for these things more than Republicans. Now, Republicans turned out well for the presidential. We did great in 2024, but we have seen instances over the last few years where Republicans just don't get up for these, off cycle elections and it and it makes a difference.
And so, the political strategy here is absolutely correct. Elise will win easily, when she runs for reelection next year. She's terrific, by the way, and politics is a team sport, and she's a team player. Trump's the party boss. He made the right call. It's tough for her, and she earned this position. I hate it for her, but it's what's best for the party, and she did it.
BERMAN: It's tougher. It really sucks for her. I mean, she gave up her leadership position --
UNKNOWN: She's doing a farewell tour.
BERMAN: -- in Congress. She's doing a farewell tour. She doesn't have her committee.
DAVIS: She doesn't have the committee. She doesn't have -- yeah. She left - she -- all of her staff. She doesn't have the leadership position anymore. I mean, you and I both worked with her during her Bush years. I mean, it sucks for her. I mean, there's no other better way to put it, I mean. And she is a team player, but and this isn't another cabinet secretary that needed to have like, secretary of defense, secretary of treasury. And so they need her in the House.
And, also, to pass these bills now probably in September, in regards to reconciliation, they're going to need a vote.
TANDEN: I mean, let's be clear what happened here. They thought this race would be a cakewalk. That's why they pulled her into this nomination, right? They thought a 60-40 race would be easy to win, and I -- Scott is absolutely right. Democrats have done better in turnout and not fierce, but not by 16 points from two days ago, not by 20 points in upstate in, like, in a place like Upstate New York, which is pretty conservative place.
So, I actually think the fact that they I mean, I've been pretty negative on some of these races, but the fact that they're basically making her do this career face plant, which is really harsh to her in order to save this one seat that just a few months ago, they thought was going to be easy breezy. That's telling us the ground has really shifted. And I do think it's because of things like we've discussed -- the DOGE attacks, other things are really motivating Democratic voters.
BERMAN: Apparently, Donald Trump, the President, is really mad at Michael Waltz for all of this even though he doesn't represent New York because it has to do with Florida. The Florida race, Michael Waltz's seat, which we'll probably say with the Republic -- is way, way closer, than it should be.
I just want to go back to -- to what we were talking about in the last block and bring you all back into discussion. Elon Musk did this interview on Fox News with all of his people at DOGE. The one person apparently who wasn't there, the person who is technically the President swears running DOGE, the administrator Amy Gleason. We put her picture back up on the screen before she wasn't part of that group interview with Elon Musk.
WOOD JR.: She didn't know that -- that the meme was happening. Maybe she's not in the signal chat.
BERMAN: Or maybe DOGE got to her. I mean, may maybe she hasn't found out yet that her job is gone.
WOOD JR.: Maybe.
TANDEN: That sounds like some fraud that someone should look at.
BERMAN: But it is interesting that they all sat down there, and the person that legally, I mean, they've been in court. The Trump administration has been in court saying that she's running it, that she wasn't there.
(22:50:00]
JENNINGS: In the White House, there's a chief of staff. Her name is Susie Wiles. There's also a press secretary, Ms. Leavitt. Leavitt speaks to the press every day. Susie doesn't. Does that mean Susie is not in charge of the White House? Not everybody does P.R. Not everybody does communications. And so, I don't know what she does on a daily basis. I know what the documents say.
I know Elon Musk is the spirit animal of this thing, and that's the person people need to hear from. And this team that he's brought in of geniuses, people need to hear from them, too. I agree with what you said earlier. It's good P.R. for them to go out and talk to the American people operationally about what they're doing. And he's largely viewed as the godfather of this effort. Talk to the press.
WOOD JR.: We have heard from this godfather spirit animal for the last two months. Where is Amy? I want the supervisor.
JENNINGS: Will that make you happy? If we brought her out here --
WOOD JR.: Yes, out there with the chain of the wedding.
JENNINGS: Then say, this is a great idea.
WOOD JR.: Amy, if you're watching this, Amy, just -- just, I'm hitching the Signal chat, Amy.
DAVIS: Who knows what is happening with this woman? Let's leave her alone. We have no idea what's going on in her body. We have no idea why she's not on. Like, this is what's the problem with our country right now.
WOOD JR.: It's just a shell game of --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Signal shack she's listening in on. All right, next. The panel gives us their nightcaps, ridiculous rivalry edition. They'll face off with what isn't worth your time inspired by LeBron James facing off with Stephen A. Smith.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:58]
LEBRON JAMES, NBA PLAYER: He's going to be smiling from ear to ear when he hears me talking about him in the air. Oh my God. He's going to get home and grab some ice cream (BEEP) the freezer and sit in his chair and his tighty whities on the couch.
STEPHEN A. SMITH, "THE STEPHEN A. SMITH SHOW" HOST: I would have gotten my ass kicked because had that man put his hands on me, I would have immediately swung on him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: All right. We are back, and it's time for nightcap's ridiculous rivalry edition. That was LeBron James and Stephen A. Smith. They've been in a -- in a feud over -- I don't even know what, and it's pretty ridiculous. So, you each have 30 seconds to tell us more dumb feuds. Ashley, you're up first.
DAVIS: Okay. I am very cool, uncool. I'm 50 years old and I do not know pop culture, but I do know that Taylor Swift and Katy Perry were fighting for numerous years. There were many songs written about their fight and there was a hamburger and a French fry reunion that they both dressed up as to make up.
BERMAN: If they can make up, really, anyone can.
UNKNOWN: You are an (inaudible).
DAVIS: Yeah, but or do we really care? I don't really care about their fight either. I mean, this is, like, the point.
TANDEN: I can't believe we both have Taylor Swift, but --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVIS: And I'm not -- I'm like -- 50 at all.
TANDEN: I was going with Taylor Swift versus, you know, some of her MAGA critics that have gone after her for quite a while now. You know, I think it's time for bygones be bygones and to let that go.
BERMAN: Let's hope. Let's hope we're all secretly praying for that. Okay, Roy.
WOOD JR.: My dumb feud is Americans versus black history. Everybody keeps trying to pass laws to get rid of black history in your building that wants to remember black history, and I just think that that's dumb. You need to let that go. There are people that built this country, and there are people that want to remember that legacy and always celebrate it. So, let that go. And then to the LeBron and Stephen A thing, real quick, I hope that those two men at some point sit down alone and work through this. I hate to see two successful influential people going at it like this.
LeBron, Stephen, they go to the Red Lobster, sit down over some Cheddar Bay Biscuits. Or it's impossible to be angry when you have a Cheddar Bay Biscuit.
BERMAN: Do you -- do you have an opinion of who's right in the feud?
WOOD JR.: Oh, I'm not going to get into that, brother.
BERMAN: You don't want it to be --
WOOD JR.: Oh, I'm -- I'm sure there's a lot under the table that we do not know as a public that is the backdrop of that piece that I don't think we have all the information. So, I don't even feel right weighing in. I just -- I just want them to work out. And just when you when you go back to Americans versus black history, I mean, the -- the President signed a new executive order even tonight, with the Smithsonian telling the Smithsonian they have to do away with rhetoric that he considers divisive.
WOOD JR.: Yeah. Yeah. And -- and that's to me is, if you're going to spend most of your presidency undoing things, that is, to me, doesn't seem to be the best way to spend your time governing. I'll just say that.
BERMAN: All right. Chuck.
ROCHA: Staying with history. I was honored yesterday to get to go to Yale, Scott, and speak at the Yale Law School. I've never been to college, but I speak at the college. Anyway, I want to hat tip to those fellows up there who had me there, Gavin and all the crew. What I was thinking when I asked them at lunch about was Yale Law School the best law school?
They're like, well, Harvard thinks they're the best law school, but it got me thinking about, I'm over this rivalry between these two great institutions. If you're lucky enough to go to either one of them, you're probably set for life. And let's put that rivalry to the side and maybe figure out global hunger because every smart person in the world is there.
DAVIS: Hey, that was a good name drop, by the way, all your, like, Yale speaking. I see. Yeah. You got it in. It should be on your TikTok.
JENNINGS: Chuck -- he is the king of this.
DAVIS: No. I know. It should be on your -- you know what?
JENNINGS: There's never been a better -- it's a genius matter.
DAVIS: I just got you more TikTok followers.
ROCHA: Sorry, Scott.
JENNINGS: Okay. It's ridiculous, and it's glorious. But in honor of opening day of Major League Baseball, which is today, I want to give a shout out to the rivalry between my beloved Saint Louis Cardinals and the Chicago Cubs. This is specifically for David Axelrod, by the way. If you're watching right now in the NL Central, David, there's only one team at the top of the list, the one and O, Saint Louis Cardinals. And it looks like the O and two Chicago Cubs are at the bottom.
[23:00:00]
You can have it, too. The O and two Chicago Cubs are at the bottom of the list. So tonight, X, I'm calling out this rivalry. I'm going to make a prediction. The cards are going to best the Cubs in this division.
BERMAN: I think the idea was to dispense of the rivalry.
JENNINGS: No, I'm making it worse.
BERMAN: Okay.
JENNINGS: That's my job.
WOOD JR.: You can't -- you can't trip under the Cubs lost two games, but they lost some games in Tokyo. Everybody know what happened overseas don't count in America.
ROCHA: Good point.
BERMAN: All right.
UNKNOWN: But sure.
BERMAN: Thank you. Mine is, can't we all just get along? Do not miss Roy on this weekend's new episode of "Have I Got News For You". It airs Saturday at 9 P.M. right here on CNN. Thank you all for watching "NewsNight"."Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
