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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Says He's Okay With A Short-Term U.S. Recession; Trump Goes Scorched Earth In Budget Blueprint, Alarming GOP; Judge Rules Trump Targeting Law Firm Is Unconstitutional; Judge Blocks Trump's Executive Order Targeting Perkins Coie; Sen. Fetterman's Former Aide Spills On His Mental State; Black Trump Voters On Why They Voted For Trump; CNN Original Series Presents "My Happy Place" With Taraji P. Henson. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 02, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Robin Hood in reverse? Donald Trump's budget blueprint takes from the poor, helps the rich and alarms his own party.
Plus, breaking tonight, a judge rules the president's targeting of a law firm is unconstitutional.
Also, a former aide sounds the alarm over John Fetterman's behavior, sparking a debate over the mental health of lawmakers.
And black voters, Van Jones and how Trump flipped some liberals.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What about Trump appeal to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, part of it is he's an asshole. I like authenticity.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Erin Maguire, John Fugelsang, Adrienne Elrod, Brad Todd and Van Lathan.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Philip in New York. Let's get right to what America's talking about, a recession confession. Tonight, President Trump now says it's okay if the country takes an economic downturn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN WELKER, NBC NEWS HOST: And that's my question, the long-term. Is it okay in the short-term to have a recession? DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Remember this, look, yes, everything's okay. What we are -- I said this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's a stunning statement when not too long ago, Trump and company were saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you think there will be a recession?
TRUMP: I don't see it at all.
KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COUNSELOR: And I guarantee no recession.
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: There's going to be no recession in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump promised to fight for the average American, but now it appears that he's pulling a Robin Hood in reverse. His priority is clearly laid out in a newly released White House spending wish list. And priority number one, the military, which would see a massive funding increased of more than $1 trillion, two more than $1 trillion.
So, what's low on the list of presidential priorities? Critical programs that millions of people rely on, things like education, the CDC, and the NIH, housing assistance and environmental protections are all facing aggressive cuts.
Now, we should note the president's budget is just a proposal. It would still need to get hashed out by Congress. But on the recession front, it is surprising, Brad, that suddenly Trump is putting a recession on the table and trying to tell Americans that it'll be just fine if that happens this year?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I felt like he was trying to not give Kristen Welker, the journalist who was interviewing there, what she wanted. If you look at the jobs report this week, 177,000 jobs added, that beat expectations. That was strong for the last month. If you look at GDP in the first quarter, you saw exports are up. You saw that investment is way up, 21 percent up, private domestic investment. There are a lot of really good things happening in the economy. And I think he was trying to just basically be contrarian with her.
PHILLIP: By saying that there was going to be a recession?
TODD: He didn't say there was going to be a recession. No, he didn't say there'd be a recession.
PHILLIP: I mean, I don't know. What did he think Kristen Welker wanted? ERIN MAGUIRE. REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, AXIOM STRATEGIES: He did what Donald Trump does, which is he said, yes -- like he said, yes, okay. But what he was not affirming her point. He was using it as a bridge word to the next one. He said, everything's fine. He said everything's fine and we'll all be okay.
I would not have taken Donald Trump's statement the way the media did, which was to say, he said a recession would be okay. He did not, in any definitive terms, say a recession would be okay for the economy. So, the media getting all spun up over the word okay. In the middle of a sentence to a bridge where he said, everything is fine. That was not what he was saying.
And so I think that we need a little bit of clarity here to like give the president the opportunity to say that was not what he said. He did not say a recession would be okay. So, let's be honest.
PHILLIP: The context is also that he has already said there is going to be pain. I mean, that's the other part of it, right?
MAGUIRE: But that's not -- recession and pain, right, those are not the same word. And while --
PHILLIP: Sure, yes, they're not. But I'm saying the idea that he's preparing Americans for difficult times ahead. I mean, he said that pretty explicitly.
MAGUIRE: Honesty is refreshing, right?
[22:05:00]
He said, short-term pain for long-term gain. At least you have a White House who's being honest, unlike the Biden White House who said, what, inflation is transitory and everything's fine, and don't believe your lying eyes. At least we're getting a little bit of honesty here.
ADRIENNE ELROD, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER AND SENIOR SPOKESPERSON, HARRIS 2024 CAMPAIGN: Here's a couple points here. Number one, Donald Trump inherited a strong economy thanks to President Biden. Let's make that very clear. 15.5 million jobs record, low unemployment. We could go on and on.
TODD: High inflation, energy prices --
MAGUIRE: Supply chain issues.
(CROSSTALKS)
TODD: No, because they intentionally drove energy prices up.
ELROD: Thankfully, the rescue plan was passed. Otherwise, we would've had inflation, which was consistent with what --
TODD: The rescue plan helped cause the inflation. It drove government spending --
(CROSSTALKS)
ELROD: (INAUDIBLE) and see where their inflation numbers are.
But here's the bottom line. Donald Trump has lost credibility when he talks about the economy. He is underwater in terms of his economic numbers. He's hovering around 42, 43 percent. He came in, that's one of the main reasons why he won the election, because inflation was high, costs were high, and he was able to draw that contrast effectively. But the bottom line is because the stock market is out of control, because he doesn't seem to have a plan on these tariffs, he's lost so much credibility --
MAGUIRE: The stock market is up.
ELROD: The stock market has gone significantly down.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: The market had a very good period over the last nine or ten days.
ELROD: Sure. But it had a very --
PHILLIP: But I think the main issue with the markets is the volatility. It's the high highs and the low lows. And so that's still a factor, even when the market has a long stretch of positive gains.
But I want to just -- you made the point about honesty. I just want to play what Trump said on the campaign about what would happen if he was elected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Together, we will begin the four greatest years in the history of our country, and we will launch the most extraordinary economic boom the world has ever seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's getting harder and harder to see how that happens when he also seems to be saying, we need to go through a period of tough times in order to get to the other side of some future that, you know, is a little uncertain what that's actually going to look like.
VAN LATHAN, PODCAST CO-HOST, HIGHER LEARNING: Yes. I mean, we can all try to translate it and spin it for our side, but Donald Trump has given no indication that he cares whether or not the country goes into a recession. What he cares about are his tariffs and the way he views his economic plan, no matter whether it causes pain in the bond market, pain in the stock market, pain on shelves paying for Americans.
He told Americans to buy less toys at Christmas. I can't think of a more of a less sensitive thing to say to a bunch of people who expect the prices to go down. We can try to translate him, but I can tell you that when he wants to say something, he has no problem saying it. When he wants to blame all the world's problems and the country's problems on undocumented people, he does it. When he wants to talk about DEI, he says it very clearly.
There's no reason to kind of hem and haw about what he meant. He doesn't really care if there's a recession short term or if there's paying for people short-term. He wants what he wants.
PHILLIP: Can I bring in now this issue of the budget that he put together? Because I think it really says a lot, not just about priorities, as it always does for presidents, but also do they really have a plan for how the money is going to work here? There's a lot of spending coming in on the military side of things and on homeland security. And then there are cuts that are pretty deep when it comes to the programs, rental assistance block grants, low income home energy assistance programs, clean energy shelter and services programs over at FEMA. Those cuts are significant to those programs, but they still don't add up.
JOHN FUGELSANG, SIRIUSXM HOST, TELL ME EVERYTHING: That's right, they don't.
PHILLIP: They still don't pay for what the additional spending is.
FUGELSANG: The important thing to remember is if there is a recession he'll know who to blame, so that's what matters. But you're exactly right about this budget. It seems like a gigantic gift to Democrats in 2026. This is not a budget that's going to help red states.
I read this and I thought, it's like the Bush family's back again. It's making the rich richer, making the poor poorer, cutting education, feeding the war machine. A budget is a statement of values. And the values of this budget are tanks over teachers, wealth over we the people, and the military industrial complex over everything, and it's not going to help. And just America did have terrible inflation, but it was global because of COVID, and we had better inflation than all of our G7 capitalist allies.
TODD: Hold on just a second. Joe Biden starved the defense -- America's defense --
FUGELSANG: Starved? He increased it, sir.
TODD: No. Actually, go back to look at Joe Biden's first budget. Military went up 1.7 percent while he was doing double digit increases to everything else. Well, he increased everything. So we are -- we have an imminent threat from China. We should be spending more on defense. We should be spending more on defense to cope with all the challenges we face around the world.
[22:10:00]
FUGELSANG: We have more defense than the next ten largest countries combined.
TODD: But let's go back -- so you want to encourage our NATO allies to spend more on their defense? FUGELSANG: Oh, no, I want to encourage us to make our NATO allies our allies.
TODD: Okay. All right, let's go back to the budget process though. What happens when presidents send their budget, the president proposes, the Congress disposes. It happens all the time. If you look back at Barack Obama, two of his budgets got zero votes. Two others got less than two votes. So, let's don't get too crazy about what's in this bill (ph).
PHILLIP: I understand that. I mean, I think the question is more just how does the math math, because I just -- it just doesn't seem -- it doesn't seem to be --
MAGUIRE: The math isn't supposed to math. I think at the end of the day --
TODD: It's the start of a debate.
MAGUIRE: They call it the skinny budget. They call it a blueprint. They put all this language on it to make it modifiable, to make it amenable, that this is just a starting point for the conversation. But I don't know why anybody is shocked by what the priorities were, even in this skinny blueprint. It's national defense, it's immigration, it's the sovereignty of this nation, it is eliminating --
FUGELSANG: Over clean water?
MAGUIRE: Oh, I'm sorry, over E.V. programs.
(CROSSTALKS)
MAGUIRE: No, there are no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid anywhere in that.
TODD: Nowhere in this budget. I'm looking for the --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Guys, one at a time.
MAGUIRE: What I won't allow here is you to try and rewrite what that actually says. Nowhere in there are there any cuts to Medicaid.
PHILLIP: There's a difference between what Trump has proposed and what Congress is talking about.
But, Erin, let me ask you really specifically, because the whole argument around immigration especially is we need to get our country back so that we can spend these resources on Americans, but then he's doing that while also cutting services to Americans. What about that?
MAGUIRE: So, you look at things like education, if you look at what his budget blueprint has put out, from what I've seen reporting-wise. It is removing more of the federal bureaucracy and oversight and sending it back to the states. If you have heard from Republicans and those who believe in that, this is where it would go, which is less federal bureaucracy. I don't know why all of a sudden that seems like something farfetched.
PHILLIP: What about low income home energy assistance --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: What about home energy assistance program, which actually help a lot of rural parts of the country? What about shelter services for FEMA, which helps a lot of the south, which deals with a lot of, you know, extreme weather? I mean, what about those things? Those are all things that --
TODD: Congress will put many of these things back in.
PHILLIP: Help his constituents?
TODD: As that's what happened.
PHILLIP: Well, why propose them? I think that's the question that we're asking.
TODD: Because he's trying to set the conversation that we must get federal spending under control. If we don't get federal spending under control --
FUGELSANG: But you don't cut taxes for the billionaires.
TODD: He's not going to cut taxes. He's not cutting taxes. He won't cut taxes.
FUGELSANG: Of course they are.
TODD: He's not. He's going to keep taxes as they are. Would you like to see them go up?
FUGELSANG: I would like to see taxes go up on billionaires, absolutely, sir.
TODD: Okay. How anybody else? Who else? People who make $200,000?
(CROSSTALKS)
FUGELSANG: I'm in favor of a tax bill that separated the 1 percent from --
TODD: Wait a minute. What's going to happen at the end of this year there's going to be a tax bill and you're going to vote, yes or no, and it will include keeping tax rates the same for everyone? Are you encouraging Democrats to vote against that?
FUGELSANG: I'm encouraging Democrats to tax a living hell out of the (INAUDIBLE) because they can easily afford it.
TODD: Keep taxes the same way they are today.
FUGELSANG: No, I do not support it. I want to cut taxes on working people and raise taxes on those who can easily afford to pay for it.
TODD: Your choice is going to keep the tax rates the way they are or raise them.
FUGELSANG: That's a losing theme for Democrats.
TODD: That's why voters put Republicans in office.
FUGELSANG: And that's why Reaganomics doesn't work.
PHILLIP: That's only the choice because that would be --
MAGUIRE: Republicans won.
PHILLIP: Well, exactly, because Republicans would put that choice on the table. They also have the option because they are in power to craft a bill that maybe doesn't do that. I mean, the reporting is that there have been discussions about how they're going to pay for all of the tax cuts on -- no taxes on Social Security, no taxes on tips, no taxes on everything under the sun.
TODD: You don't have to pay for a tax cut because it's the public money to start with (ph).
PHILLIP: Okay, sure. But my point is not a tax Republicans could create a bill that raise taxes on certain people and lowered taxes on everybody else, they just won't do it.
TODD: Democrats would raise taxes on everyone, and that's how they're going to vote.
(CROSSTALKS)
TODD: Every Democrat is going to raise taxes at the end of this year on everybody, everyone.
ELROD: (INAUDIBLE) raise taxes on the upper 1 percent.
TODD: How will they vote?
ELROD: People who are making nine figures year.
TODD: Can you guarantee me that --
ELROD: We don't want to raise taxes on --
TODD: Can you guarantee me the Democrats are not going to vote against keeping tax rates the same for people who --
PHILLIP: Can we just -- let me just --
ELROD: I can guarantee that (INAUDIBLE) every single day.
PHILLIP: Hold on second. Let me just try to disentangle this a little bit because I think now, you know, we're kind of talking past each other. I think the question that Adrienne is asking is why won't Republicans, if this is supposed to be about the working class, not only keep taxes the same for the working class, maybe lower taxes even more for the working class, but raise them for high income earners. Why is that not on the table?
TODD: The answer to solve our problems is to grow the economy and not to grow tax rates.
PHILLIP: But why is that not on --
MAGUIRE: Here's what people need to realize.
TODD: No one needs a tax increase, nobody.
[22:15:00]
MAGUIRE: This is part of the conversation that is being left out when you talk about raising the taxes on the wealthy. There are plenty of people that run their families through their businesses. So, they look like they make a bunch of money, but they are small businesses and entrepreneurs.
And so for them, we want to increase the taxes, right, because they are sole proprietor.
ELROD: So, we want to lower the taxes on middle class families and we want to make it easier --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me let Van have the last word in here.
LATHAN: A lot of those small business that you're talking about, taxes are going to be raised on them through tariffs. They are going to see a lot of pain and a lot of --
MAGUIRE: And tariffs are supposed to be part of the negotiation.
LATHAN: Well, what I'm telling you, part of the negotiations --
PHILLIP: I feel like I always have to say this, but let me just repeat that Donald Trump very recently, actually, just a couple days ago, said, tariffs are going to help pay for tax cuts. So, the idea that he just wants to negotiate is, by his own admission, not true. He wants to keep tariffs as a way to finance some of his promises. That is also a tax increase. The logic of this is that it's a tax --
LATHAN: Those small businesses we're talking about that rely on durable and robust supply chains and rely on the ability to sell goods, they are going to experience a lot of pain right now and in the near future because of the president's economic decisions.
FUGELSANG: And so are Republicans in the House, by the way. There's going to be a lot of Republicans very not pleased with this. I don't understand how you expect to win 2026 with this.
PHILLIP: They already are not pleased, including with the idea that the White House keeps throwing out tax cut candy, but then they have to be the ones to put the bill together and figure out how it all works.
Coming up next for us, a judge has rejected Trump's order targeting a law firm linked to Democrats, calling it unconstitutional.
Plus, a disturbing report of a former aide raising concerns about the mental health of Senator John Fetterman.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: A big legal defeat for President Trump tonight, a federal judge ruling that his executive order targeting the law firm, Perkins Coie, is illegal and unconstitutional. Judge Howell writing in part, in a cringe-worthy twist of the theatrical phrase, let's kill all the lawyers, this takes the approach of let's kill the lawyers I don't like, sending a clear message, lawyers must stick to the party line or else. Executive order 14230 is unconstitutional.
Perkins rep Hillary Clinton in 2016 and was also involved in voting rights litigation that Trump opposed. This could not have been a more clear ruling and also one that speaks pretty directly at what's happening across a lot of industries, which is that Trump is using the government and the state to try to corral law firms and universities and other entities and the ones that stick up for themselves seem to be having some success in the courts.
ELROD: Yes.
PHILLIP: But not everybody's doing it.
ELROD: No, not everyone's doing it. I mean, first of all, I think this was a monumental ruling by the courts today. And it sets, I think, a precedent that hopefully will continue to go forward. You make a really smart point, Abby, that, you know, you look at Harvard, you look at Perkins Coie, you look at some of these. Institutions that have fought back, instead of some who are sort of hiding back and being like, oh, maybe if I don't speak out, they'll forget that I exist, or he won't think that I exist.
If you actually stand your ground and stand up for yourself, you will have success. And that's exactly what we saw in the court and I hope we see more of it.
PHILLIP: I thought that the judge's statement about what this is all about, which is basically chilling speech and using the law, like preventing people from having representation as being very an antithetical to constitutional, you know, principles. And, I mean, it seems kind of on its face that that's what's happening here. Should the administration have even gone this route?
TODD: I think this was a case of them test testing the limits. And this is a district court judge. It'll be appealed to the D.C. Circuit probably, who will probably agree with her. There's a separate case that I find a little bit more interesting. That's against Wilmer Hale or Wilmer Hale's case against -- it's a law firm in Washington's, their case against the federal government in a similar executive order. Wilmer Hale's being represented by Paul Clement, one of the biggest conservative heroes in the legal community. In fact, he was a shortlist person to be on the Supreme Court when Donald Trump was there last time.
So, I think there are a lot of speech things at play here. I'm a First Amendment absolutist, so I really want First Amendment speech to be protected. And I think the administration here was probably just sending a brush-back pitch. Perkins Coie is the most partisan Democrat law firm in the country. They handled almost every election challenge, almost every lawsuit, almost every complaint against a Republican. They don't work for Republicans or they didn't when they had the political law group in their group, if I'm not mistaken.
PHILLIP: So, what?
ELROD: Yes, who cares?
TODD: My point is that he picked that target because it was the most partisan Democrat law.
FUGELSANG: Lawfare.
TODD: Which is something that --
FUGELSANG: Using the office to harass a private business he doesn't like.
TODD: Well, as the Department of Justice has done against conservative parents who went to school boards and call them domestic terrorists, called Roman Catholics who say the Latin mask under the Biden administration. That's what the department -- weaponizing the Department of Justice.
(CROSSTALKS)
TODD: That's lawfare. That's what lawfare is.
FUGELSANG: (INAUDIBLE) against the president's personal enemies. It was a difference in policy. This was trying to punish somebody using the office. And Donald Trump has somehow managed to make Americans feel sympathy for both law firms and Harvard this year, which is not an easy --
TODD: And no one feels sympathy for Harvard. That's your wrong on that. Regular Americans do not.
[22:25:00]
FUGELSANG: Believe me. And people are going to respond to the law firms and the politicians and the organizations that punch the bully back in the nose. And this firm will get more clients because of it. The firms that capitulated and lick the boots are going to lose customers because of it.
PHILLIP: Trump is not helping his own case by saying things like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You see what we're doing with the colleges, and they're all bending and saying, sir, thank you very much. We appreciate it. And they are -- nobody can believe it, including law firms that have been so horrible, law firms that nobody would believe in this, just saying, where do I sign? Where do I sign? Nobody can believe it. And there's more coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He has with the strategy secured a billion dollars worth of what they're calling pro bono legal services that, according to the reporting and according to Trump, they want to use for all kinds of different things that are of interest to them. But the difference between all the things that you mentioned and this is that the idea that they would go after firms and prevent them from representing certain people, that is what the judge says is unconstitutional.
MAGUIRE: That is what the judge ruled. And I think to Brad's point, this will go to the circuit court and likely be elevated beyond that. I think to also Brad's larger point is this is the live by the pen, die by the pen mentality of the Trump administration at this point. They are doing all of these executive orders to push the limit, to see where they can get judicial, you know, rulings in their favor.
I mean, to be fair, Democrats have played plenty of lawfare. This is not a whataboutism. Each political party uses different courts. They file in different places. So, like let's not all get the papers --
FUGELSANG: But this is messy.
MAGUIRE: Like, hey --
FUGELSANG: This is messy.
MAGUIRE: Changing the world's not going to be an easy process. That's what Donald Trump's going to tell you.
But, wait, I'm not done on this. I think it's important to realize that what Trump is doing here, ultimately on all of these executive orders, if it's on the law firms, if it's on boys and girls sports, all of it can be undone or upended if it was to hold or not in court through the administration upended, if it's not signed into law when -- if a Democrat becomes president or goes into Congress.
So, all of this is right now just momentary unless it is secured in other fashions.
LATHAN: I think the -- when we talk about this, we start talking about the politics of it and, you know how it's going to work and whether or not it's going to be durable and long lasting. The question for me becomes, if successful, is this something that you would want to see? For the right that called themselves free speech absolutist for the last four years that were mad about every time somebody complained about being called the N word on Twitter.
To see them now capitulating to someone who seems to want to squeeze free speech and seems to want to relegate the type of speech that is legal and illegal and that seems to want to change the way we have discourse in America, and when you say push the limits and test the limits, test the limits of what? Test the limits of how the law is going to stop the executive branch from meddling in people's ability to protect themselves using law or using the law? So shouldn't we say, okay, I get that he might not be able to do it, but to try to do it is bad.
TODD: You know, I'm not interested -- to your point, Van, I'm not interested in government picking winners and losers among law firms, among media outlets, any of that. But I also realized that at the highest levels of our society and our economy right now, big law, big universities, Hollywood, the news media, there is an ideological homogeneity that is really pretty far left. And that infrastructure, those institutions need to be shaken up and they need a lot more balance.
And what President Trump has done with Harvard and Columbia and some of these law firms makes them -- go read the complaint in the executive order. It's saying partly that all the causes they take on a pro bono are all one direction.
LATHAN: But I would say that there are --
FUGELSANG: Republican firms do the same thing. Democrats don't act --
TODD: No. The point is that all the large institutions in our society have started listing one direction on.
PHILLIP: But, Brad, you talk about the media, Fox is the biggest of them all --
TODD: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: -- in the media.
TODD: Well, let's hope we have a good audience tonight.
PHILLIP: No, I'm just stating facts, right? But the megaphone that conservative media has in, you know, traditional media, in podcasting and new media, is huge. Go on social media. The top Facebook pages, most of them are conservative. I think that that's --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Okay. But beyond that, okay, maybe that's true.
TODD: So, they should be --
PHILLIP: Why is it okay for the government to force change in that direction as opposed to just winning the argument? Why not just win the argument?
LATHAN: What if a Democratic president was in there and he wanted to -- he or she wanted to push ideological change in the Evangelical Christian movement? What if they want to push --
TODD: I just told you, I don't want government picking winners and losers.
LATHAN: I know. What I'm saying is that you guys seem to only care about the clubs that you can't get into. There are plenty of places where there's ideological capture on the right, all over the place.
[22:30:01]
And the reality is, if you want to foster change in those places, then you have to do it or get.
FUGELSANG: I don't know. I think a Democratic president needs to go after NASCAR ideology. It's a little too pure.
LATHAN: Right.
FUGELSANG: I think he needs to break it up a bit.
LATHAN: The NFL.
FUGELSANG: That's a more liberal attack --
(CROSSTALK)
ERIN MAGUIRE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, AXIOM STRATEGIES: I mean, listen. I can handle a lot of insane asylum takes, but like that is just bananas if that even makes sense.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, wait a minute. The Winston Cup is no longer the Winston Cup, because the government went after NASCAR. Did you lose your footing (ph)?
FUGELSANG: Not exactly, but that --
MAGUIRE: I think that's insane asylum take.
PHILIP: Okay. Very last word here, again.
ADRIENNE ELROD: Last word. The bottom line is this. Any institution that Donald Trump sees as a threat who disagrees with him, he goes after. That's what's happening. That is what happens when you start slipping into an authoritarian regime without even sometimes realizing it, and that is where we're going.
PHILLIP: All right. Up next for us, disturbing report about concerns over senator John Fetterman's mental health, and it's sparking the discussion about the fitness of those in power.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00]
PHILLIP: A new chapter tonight in the debate over how society should handle the health of people in power. A new story from "New York Magazine" raises questions about Senator John Fetterman's fitness to serve in Congress. According to the report, his former chief of staff, Adam Jentleson, and other aids expressed concern about Fetterman's complicated mental health, calling him impossible to work for and describing how staff worried about his safety and theirs as well.
"I think John is on a bad trajectory, and I'm really worried about him," Jentleson wrote in a May 2024 e-mail to the doctor who had overseen Fetterman's care. He added that if things didn't change, he was concerned that Fetterman, quote, "won't be with us for much longer." Now, you'll recall that Fetterman's been open about his treatment for depression and since he has had notable staff turnover since taking office a couple of years ago.
CNN reached out to Fetterman and his former aide for comment, but in the piece Fetterman denied anything was amiss and said he felt like the best version of himself. But this does add another layer to the debate over age, behavior, and the mental fitness of elected leaders. This story is very sad in many ways. And we know some of this publicly, right?
Like the public aspect of this he was open about, but the allegation here is that the struggle for him is still intense and ongoing. And I don't know that there's anything, if that is true, that can be done about it, for him or for anybody else.
TODD: I predict if he decided to suddenly take the side of Hamas, the ex-staffers who say he's lost his marbles would suddenly be on his side. This is -- it wreaks of a political -- of a police risk (ph), a political hatchet job. As I read through that article in the magazine, you know, 16 of his staffers wrote an anonymous letter at one point saying that his position on -- in support of Israel was a gutting betrayal. These are the same people who defended him after his stroke in the campaign and said, there's no problem here. I --
PHILLIP: I just -- I guess I wanted to say -- the only thing I would say to that is that the author of the piece has said pretty clearly that the idea that his position on Gaza is related to his mental health is not anything that anybody asserted to.
TODD: Correct.
PHILLIP: And so that -- that I should just be clear about that.
ELROD: His chief of staff, Adam Jentleson, who I know very well, who was also, I mean, who wrote the letter according to "The New York Times," he's made it very clear on the record that he supports his positions, especially his positions on Israel. He's been very clear that in a number of pieces, he supports his policy issues. But sure, absolutely. I mean, when you are a chief of staff, I've been a chief of staff on Capitol Hill.
When you are very close to a member and you see things, and I had a great experience with my member to be clear, but you have a lot of credibility in that space, and this is very sad. Obviously, you know, Senator Fetterman has been very good on the issues that Democrats care about, but these are very hard issues to get to (inaudible).
PHILLIP: Let me just say, I'm going to read what he told -- what Fetterman told "New York Magazine." "He denied that anything was amiss in his office. He told me that he felt like the best version of himself. He later texted that the staff turnover at his office was typical of Washington." Quote, "Why is this a story?"
And also, Kyrsten Sinema, former Democratic senator tonight, describing this as a despicable hit piece. "I wish I was surprised that anyone would publish an obvious vendetta regarding a man's medical journey. What a weird medical stalker. To the former staffer: My advice to you is do what your parents did. Get a job, sir."
MAGUIRE: I just want to say, one, we all should just take a real beat here. Mental health struggles are real in this country. They are real for a lot of Americans. They are real for a lot of people. And if you need help, get help. Ultimately, hard stop. For Senator Fetterman here, this is something he has continued with, but he's not the only member who has. There was just reporting about a house member who --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MAGUIRE: -- her staff found her twice having almost killed herself and had to intervene. There was a mental health crisis in the United States. It is clear that Senator Fetterman was struggling in the election. It is clear that he has struggled since. What is not okay is staff coming out and betraying a boss like this. Him e-mailing his doctor and saying I'm worried about him and then putting that out to a reporter. If you were -- that was just --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: This story has conversations between his spouse and the staff.
MAGUIRE: That is just not appropriate.
TODD: That's just not okay.
MAGUIRE: That is not appropriate. If you were worried for him --
[22:39:58]
ELROD: I think it's all right. If you were worried about your --
MAGUIRE: No.
ALEROD: -- somebody you're working for, and you --
MAGUIRE: You go to "New York Magazine" or "The Atlantic?" It doesn't make sense.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: But then you give it to "New York Magazine?"
MAGUIRE: That's not gonna help his mental health.
TODD: Okay.
PHILLIP: Guys, hang on a second.
TODD: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
MAGUIRE: If the goal here is to take care of his mental health m--
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Let's just do it one at a time. That's all I'm saying.
MAGUIRE: -- leaving a story like this will not.
TODD: Wait a minute. I'll get to Adrianne. So the doctor -- the letter from Adam Jentleson to Fetterman's doctor, if the doctor released it, that's a violation of HIPAA. So that means Adam Jentleson released it. It's one of the two ways.
ELROD: Look, I'm not gonna get in to any kind of (inaudible). Don't look at me here. I'm not going to get on any situation --
MAGUIRE: There's only two options.
TODD: So, if a staff -- when you work for a member, you don't release private communications to the media to embarrass your boss after you have left his employment. You just --
PHILLIP: All right, (inaudible) --
LATHAN: Lately, I haven't had very many agreements with Kyrsten Sinema or with John Fetterman, but I will say this. Coming out here a couple of days ago, I realized on the flight that I only had one Lexapro pill left. So when I got out here, I had to call my psychiatrist, and I had to make sure that I took time out of the things that I was doing in New York to get that prescription refilled to go to CVS and to get my Lexapro.
And that's because my mental health has been up and down in the past, and it has to be a priority to me. For people out there that are struggling, there's really no way to defend the fact that this is a story and that this is happening right now. That's a -- if he's struggling with his mental health, scrutiny and everybody talking about it is only going to put him at more risk and more danger.
FUGELSANG: It's terribly sad and reading the story made me want to vote for his wife. My callers at SiriusXM have been very divided over Senator Fetterman for quite a while.
LATHAN: Absolutely.
FUGELSANG: A lot of folks feel like this is not the man, but you know, all I know is the voters of Pennsylvania put him there. They will be the ones to decide his professional fate. When he assumed office, I defended him. There was a lot of very horrible ableist attacks against him. I thought it was very brave. He wanted to serve. I respected the bravery of him going after a stroke in public and doing it. So I'm not a medical professional. I don't know if voting for Pam Bondi is something due to a stroke or not. All I know is not every
MAGUIRE: Oh, no.
FUGELSANG: Well, excuse me. It's a joke. But what I'm saying is --
MAGUIRE: That's it. Oh, then you should say that. That's kind of a --
FUGELSANG: Well, this is what has made the progressives so enraged. And I'm sorry, there's so much conjecture on the right and the left about Senator Fetterman's seeming --
TODD: Senior position --
FUGELSANG: -- in ideology and why he's become this (inaudible).
TOD: What about Israel?
FUGELSANG: But again --
PHILLIP: It's certainly more -- at this point, it's more than just Israel because there have been a lot of other things, but it could also be --
FUGELSANG: -- flaw is a disorder.
PHILLIP: It could also be that he has those views and that has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
MAGUIRE: Right, yeah. So it's not fair to say that it's from a stroke possibly.
FUGELSANG: That's what I'm saying. People are fighting about it every night and its tearing progressives in half. And, again, maybe it's just who he is and not --
TODD: Maybe (inaudible) tolerate some dissent within (inaudible).
FUGELSANG: Maybe you should realize that criticizing the Israeli civilian government isn't being pro Hamas.
PHILLIP: All right. We're gonna leave it there. Coming up next, CNN speaks with black voters who chose Trump, and they have some things to say about why they did that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SETH DAWKINS, VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: Part of it is he's an asshole. I like -- I like authenticity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:45:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, some insights on how Trump flipped some black voters in November. Van Jones sat down with three South Carolinians and asked them quite simply why they voted for Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You weren't always a Republican.
DAWKINS: No. Actually, I come from a family that was, like, super Democratic. My first time voting, I voted Democrat. I voted for Joe Biden.
JONES: What about Trump appeal to you?
DAWKINS: Am I allowed to cuss?
JONES: Yeah. You can do that.
DAWKINS: I mean, part of it is he's an asshole. I like -- I like authenticity.
JONES: Donald Trump's team went in. They took down Harriet Tubman's picture for a quick minute. They're trying to, like, knock out the black museums. What does that have to do with the price of eggs and how did that impact you?
DAWKINS: In some ways, it's a slap in the face. In other ways, I don't care. I care more about how I'm going to take care of my children.
KYASIA KRAFT, VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: I don't think the average American cares about that. I know, I'm frankly, I am sick and tired of seeing black people sit there and complain about something, but not taking action or steps to actually try to change things in an appropriate manner.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Van, your thoughts?
LATHAN: Well, the first thought is where you all be getting these people from? That's the first thought. The second thought is this --
DAVID C. THOMAS^ I mean, these are real Trump voters.
LATHAN: I get it. But, you know, voting for someone because they're an asshole, that -- it -- there's this thought that in order to be authentic right now, you have to be, mean or ill-tempered. That's what authentic people are. They're bad and they want to cuss you. You know, a part of this has to do with, you know, those voters and how they look at things, but part of this has to do with the leadership that's been offered -- that's being offered on the other side. I got to say it.
It's a movie called "The American President" and Michael J. Fox is talking to Michael Douglas and he says, people want leadership and they'll crawl through the desert to find leadership. And when they get there, if there's no oasis waiting for them, they'll drink the sand. Right?
And I see three sand drinkers right there. I think three people that think that they're looking, think that they see authentic leadership qualities in someone that they can't find on the other side that they used to be in. Because if you're telling me that you're voting for someone because they're an asshole, and you're black and you don't care that somebody wants to erase the legacy of Harriet Tubman, I think that you're probably a little bit skewed on what your priorities are. It's my take.
[22:50:04]
PHILLIP: I wonder if, Erin and Brad, the idea that Democrats are not offering anything on the other side, or enough on the other side, that probably appeals to you, but, I mean, Trump is also incredibly different from what Republicans would have nominated not that long ago. And there is a meanness to it, a kind of nastiness to the politics of Trump that I think has become the Republican Party now.
TODD: You know what? A lot of Trump voters, when they hear it from him, they go, well, everybody else in power thinks it, but they don't say it, and they say polished remarks written by professional people. And Donald Trump says exactly what's on his mind. We hear this in focus groups all the time, that Trump is a more of a truth teller because of the edge to what he says. It means he's not doing the politically correct polish thing.
LATHAN: He's the one of the world's most prolific liars. He's a liar.
TODD: Look, I'm trying to tell you how people -- why people vote for him.
LATHAN: Oh, yeah. I know. I get it.
TODD: But then -- but think about this --
LATHAN: But even that --
TODD: -- this is a rebuke to Washington in both parties. It's a rebuke of Wall Street. It's a rebuke of large media organizations like ours that people are looking for someone who tells it in a much more unvarnished way, and they think --
LATHAN: I know when somebody -- so this is what I'll say. You know, I talked about the leadership of the Democrats. I thought Kamala Harris was an excellent candidate, a candidate that was truthful with the American people. I think sometimes that people think mean is true and nice is inauthentic. Now, I do think the Democrats have a messaging problem.
FUGELSANG: Bill Clinton said the American people would rather vote for someone who is wrong and strong than weak and right. And what -- MAGUIRE: What about Jasmine Crockett? Isn't she the one going on late night TV for Democrats saying use the F-bomb, do whatever it takes? Like, let's say --
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: I just want to point out, more than 90 percent of black women voted Democrat. More than 80 percent of black men still vote Democrat.
MAGUIRE: But you (inaudible) about the --
FUGELSANG: They are the two most reliable demographics. I don't know why these people keep getting served (ph).
ELROD: -- we are losing especially when black men in every cycle (inaudible) something to do about that. But at the bottom line, I think at the end of the day, people do want, they crave authenticity, and that is something that Democrats got to figure out.
PHILLIP: All right, everybody. Thank you very much for joining us. Coming up, snake bites kill hundreds of thousands of people a year, but thanks to this guy who let hundreds of snakes bite him, scientists are closer than ever to developing a solution. Well, he'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:00]
PHILLIP: Celebrity hosts take you to their happy places in a new CNN Original Series. I spoke with actress, Taraji P. Henson, about hers in Bali.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TARAJI P. HENSON, ACTRESS (voice-over): This is Cantika Zest Spa. The owner is our mutual friend, Neroli, who was also my Canang Sari (ph) teacher. She and her staff create all their face and body products themselves, harvesting ingredients straight from this exquisite garden.
UNKNOWN: So today, we're gonna make all natural product for the faith. I don't know if you heard of patchouli.
HENSON: Patchouli.
UNKNOWN: This is patchouli.
HENSON: I've never seen patchouli before.
UNKNOWN: Let me see one.
UNKNOWN: You have to go, like, little bit like that and then sip.
HENSON: This is absolutely patchouli.
UNKNOWN: We use patchouli when we make our mask. Over here, we have our ilang-ilang.
HENSON: I love ilang-ilang. They put it in my room every day. Mother nature has everything in me.
UNKNOWN: Everything.
HENSON (voice-over): I love skin care products and even have my own line. So this lush fairy tale garden is a dream come true.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: And Taraji P. Henson joins me now. Taraji, that is one of the most beautiful places in the entire world. But you said that this visit, when you went there a few years ago, it saved your life. Why was that?
HENSON: Oh, my goodness. I was just so -- I was at a low point, spiritually, mentally, and I just needed new life breathe into me. And I decided to go alone because I didn't want distractions of, you know, my girlfriends, and I wanted to meet new people, and I wanted to stay present. And it was the best thing I'd ever done.
Like, I met a group of new friends, because I was so present, and I couldn't dip off and go into, like, little conversations about things that were happening back in the U.S. I stayed present. And in Bali, and I just enjoyed it immensely. And it was just the, rejuvenation my soul needed. And the food was amazing.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've done so much work on mental health. You have this foundation that you founded because of your father's experience. What was it about being in that place to kind of reconnect with yourself that changed things for you?
HENSON: It's literally where you go eat, pray, love, basically. The food I say it was very good, all natural from, you know, the ground, from the earth. You know, not a lot of the things that we add in the food here in the States, so I felt like my body was being fit properly. I did a lot of meditation, a lot of yoga, which slowed me down and made me look inward.
[23:00:03]
I just met incredible new people there. The people there are beautiful. They pray over everything.
