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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump: "I Don't Know" If I Need To Uphold The Constitution; Trump Threatens Another Tariff, Targeting Movies This Time; Mattel Announces It'll Raise Prices, Including Barbie Dolls; "NewsNight" Panelists Debate On The Dependency On China For Anything; Trump Pitches A Return To 'The Rock.' Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 05, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, we the people lost in translation.
KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS HOST: -- the Constitution of the United States as president?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't know.
PHILLIP: The backbone of American democracy takes a chill up the spine.
Plus, another tariff, another topic, another target. Why Trump proves he's making up the fate of the economy as he goes.
Also --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: we don't have a radar, so I don't know where you are.
PHILLIP: -- flying blind. Days of delays at one of America's busiest airports begs the question who is at the controls.
And make Alcatraz great again, why support for MAGA's new law and order dream may be on an island.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Jemele Hill, Batya Ungar-Sargon, Charles Blow and Jason Carter.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, a civics test. When presidents raise their right hands, they pledge to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. But Donald Trump is apparently keeping his options open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president?
TRUMP: I don't know. I have to respond by saying, again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me and they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The exchange was over deportations and due process, which several judges have ruled Trump's actions are indeed unconstitutional. But this is a notable moment in politics. Since for the right, for decades, they have made America's document the centerpiece of its governing and moral philosophy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LEVIN, FNC HOST, LIFE, LIBERTY AND LEVIN: This is a pocket copy of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I've spent 40 years, 40 years of my life studying this.
SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Because I believe in this document written by the hands of wise men raised up by God to that very purpose.
REP. VIRGINIA FOXX (R-NC): The Constitution starts with the three most important words outside the bible, we the people.
LEVIN: Didn't you take an oath to this, the Constitution of the United States? Doesn't this supersede everything else?
GLENN BECK, CEO, THEBLAZE: Our Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Every decision that I make starts with asking the questions, is this constitutional?
LEE: This is not a prop, and I don't carry it a prop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is Attorney Donte Mills. He is a law professor at Temple University.
Donte, I don't think it requires a law degree to understand what the Constitution says. Is it just me? It seems like that's kind of a cop out for just the plain text, which actually, if you're conservative, that is how they read the document.
DONTE MILLS, CIVIL AND CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: The simple answer should be, I will follow the Constitution, especially if you are the president of the United States. But I want to have a logical conversation. And there's a quote that Donald Trump said. He said, I was elected to get them to hell out of here and the courts are holding me back from doing so. That shows his rationale. He thinks that the courts are acting against him. But the court's job is not to advance or to fight against the presidential policy. It is to make sure that they interpret these laws with fairness.
And the one thing the courts do that I think President Trump is missing here, the courts determine or look at what if you're wrong? What if they're not a criminal? What if they're not a gang member? What if they're not an immigrant, they're an American citizen and you put them in jail anyway? And all of that has happened, the impact of that far outweighs the time it would take. So, just have a hearing, and that's what due process is.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, here's the deal. We've let 20 million something people into the country illegally, and now what a lot of folks want to do is use the court system to try to stop as much as possible the rapid deportation of illegal aliens from the country. What the president said in the interview was very clear. He was unsure on these deportation cases because of the unusual circumstances, but he was going to defer to his brilliant lawyers and said, quote, we are going to follow what the Supreme Court says.
There is no outrage here that's worth --
[22:05:00]
PHILLIP: What are different circumstances?
JENNINGS: But we have been invaded by millions upon millions of people and he was elected to get them out. He was elected to get them out. And what some people are proposing is a backlog system that will never allow us to go to get them out.
PHILLIP: You're describing illegal immigration, which has been around for a long time, as an invasion, which is fine for you if you want to do that, but why is that unusual that there's a process to go through to deport people? I mean, that's actually just how the system works.
JENNINGS: Do you know how long it takes for this process, this paperwork to get people out? The guy that we've all been weeping and gnashing teeth over the, you know, guy we sent to El Salvador was in the country 14 years illegally.
PHILLIP: But what about --
JENNINGS: We've got millions of people who have gamed this system and now --
(CROSSTALKS)
CHARLES BLOW, AUTHOR, THE DEVIL YOU KNOW: You believe in the Constitution or you don't. And --
JENNINGS: I believe in the sovereignty of the United States where you don't.
BLOW: But do you believe in the Constitution? JENNINGS: I believe in the sovereignty of the United States.
BLOW: So, you don't believe in the Constitution. And you don't believe that Donald Trump should abide by the Constitution?
JENNINGS: Of course I do. And, of course, I believe --
BLOW: Do you believe that he does?
JENNINGS: And I believe that he will follow just as he said what the Supreme Court says. But the policy debate is worth having.
BLOW: From the very beginning --
JENNINGS: Millions upon millions of people are here and they will not leave. And he has to get them out.
BLOW: He has always --
MILLS: I agree with you with that --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
BLOW: Always. From the very beginning, from 2016, he has believed in executive overreach. We've all seen that. He said it. It was clear. Are you saying now that you don't believe that he believes in executive overreach?
JENNINGS: I believe that he believes his mandate from the American people is to solve illegal immigration. And I would ask you the same question in reverse. Did Joe Biden, when he said he would faithfully uphold and execute the laws of this land, not mean it when he decided to let millions upon millions of people into the country because he did not execute the laws land?
BLOW: I thought that you were going to squirm out of that question.
JENNINGS: I'm not squirming.
BLOW: Yes, you did, and that's why I prepared for it because I want to read you something. At the core of Trump's candidacy is a call to for greater executive authority with willful disregard for the constitutional limits placed on our chief executive. Trump especially promises to force individual companies to do things he wants them to do or else he promises punishment to those who displeased him, which appeals to the miserable man at the airport bar. Do you recognize that?
JENNINNGS: Yes, I wrote it.
BLOW: Exactly.
JENNINGS: And here's the deal.
BLOW: So, what -- he hasn't changed. So, what has changed about you?
JENNINGS: And here's the difference between then and now. This country has been invaded, the president was elected to --
BLOW: So, you can't judge me (ph) on the Constitution?
JENNINGS: No. My opinion is the president needs to pull every lever he can to solve the illegal immigration.
BLOW: So, you answered that question by saying you already (INAUDIBLE) is unconstitutional.
MILLS: And here's a question. Do you believe that every immigrant here is the same? You can't believe that because they're not.
JENNINGS: Yes.
MILLS: They're not.
JENNINGS: I do. I believe every --
MILLS: There's some good, there's some bad, there's some criminal.
JENNINGS: I believe everybody who's here illegally, not all are violent, but all are here illegally.
MILLS: How do you differentiate if nobody gets a hearing if you don't have due process? And how do you distinguish one from the other? So, what you're saying is every person that's here in this country is a criminal, is a gang member, should be thrown in jail, and that's what's happening.
JENNINGS: Every person who's here illegally is in fact a criminal. Some of them do come here and commit violent crimes and still aren't deported.
MILLS: Some of them. But how are you going to differentiate if you don't have a process?
JENNINGS: Well, some have records and some don't.
BLOW: They still have constitutional rights.
JENNINGS: They're all going away --
BLOW: They don't have constitutional rights.
PHILLIP: I want to make sure that we're not straying from the point of this conversation, which is a question about due process rights. And so I'll just ask really quickly, do you believe that undocumented immigrants have to have due process rights, that that's constitutionally what they're entitled to?
JENNINGS: I'm unsure of what that means in the context of some of the cases that we've been dealing with in the news lately, because I've been looking at these people who have been here for 14 years, have been through numerous immigration.
I have a question about what does it mean? PHILLIP: All right. Let me --
JENNINGS: What does it mean?
PHILLIP: Let me bring the Supreme Court into this since you brought them up. This is what two different Supreme Court justices have said about this issue in the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do undocumented immigrants have the five freedoms?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I think so. I think anybody who's present in the United States has protections under the United States Constitution.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 14th Amendment, it doesn't speak of citizens as some Constitutions grant rights to citizens. But all Constitution says a person. And the person is every person who is here, documented or undocumented.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Batya, I wonder why it's so difficult to understand a pretty simple concept? If Trump wants to deport illegal immigrants, he can do that, but he ought to do it legally. Do you think that that is a fair thing to say at this moment?
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, AUTHOR, SECOND CLASS, HOW THE ELITES BETRAYED AMERICA'S WORKING MEN AND WOMEN: I do think the media is pulling another, you know, dictator for a day hoax right now, because it's clear when Trump said, I don't know, what he meant was what he finished his sentence saying, which is, I don't know where the Supreme Court is going to come down on whether deporting these illegal migrants is constitutional or not.
[22:10:08]
It's very obvious.
PHILLIP: Okay.
UNGAR-SARGON: And yet every single headline --
PHILLIP: Hold on. You just called it a hoax though. Let's just play -- can we play it again in the control room what Trump said in response to Kristen Welker?
We're getting it up right now. Can I make another --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president?
TRUMP: I don't know. I have to respond by saying again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me, and they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JENNINGS: What's wrong with that?
UNGAR-SARGON: So, the Supreme Court is going to decide what is constitutional and what is not? And Trump just committed 100 percent to following what the Supreme Court says.
PHILLIP: Okay. There's --
UNGAR-SARGON: Can I just -- I want to make one more, very quick.
PHILLIP: Hold on. There's another clip. Do we have the other one where he talks about whether citizens deserve due process? If we do, let's play that one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: Your secretary of state says, everyone who's here, citizens and non-citizens, deserve due process. Do you agree, Mr. President?
TRUMP: I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know.
WELKER: Well, the Fifth Amendment says as much --
TRUMP: I don't know. It seems it might say that. But if you're talking about that, then we'd have to have a million or 2 million or 3 million trials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNGAR-SARGON: So, can I respond to that?
PHILLIP: Yes.
UNGAR-SARGON: So, what does it mean for an illegal immigrant to have due process? We would all agree that they do not have the same level of due process that we do. For example, we are entitled to a jury trial and they are entitled to a hearing before an immigration judge. Do you know who the immigration judges work for? They work for the executive branch. They work for --
PHILLIP: So what?
UNGAR-SARGON: Which is that they work for Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: Well, you're actually making a great in charge. You're making a great point.
UNGAR-SARGON: Which means that he is in charge of the due process that they get.
PHILLIP: But Donald Trump doesn't even want to give him even that due process. I mean, I think that that's part of the problem.
UNGAR-SARGON: He said he is not sure the level to which they are entitled due process.
PHILLIP: But she didn't ask about what level of due process, a very basic, simple question.
The reason I'm jumping in here is because she did not ask him, what do -- should they have a jury trial? Should they not have a jury trial? She just said whatever process they are entitled to, if they're immigrants and they're in an immigration proceeding, then, yes, you're absolutely right. It's a different type of proceeding. It's actually more of an administrative proceeding.
MILLS: It's a much lower standard as well.
PHILLIP: But still, even still, they are trying to circumvent that minimal amount of due process. The question is why.
UNGAR-SARGON: Let me give you an example. I'll give you an example. In the example of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, I believe he already got his due process. He had a deportation order. So, for Trump to be asked, does that man deserve more due process, I think the answer is absolutely not. I don't want another dime of my taxpayer dollars go to --
MILLS: He was not supposed to be deported.
UNGAR-SARGON: He was not supposed to be sent to El Salvador but a deportation hearing --
PHILLIP: Let's put Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the side for just --
UNGAR-SARGON: No. But I'm just using it as an example as someone who Trump very legitimately say, does not need any more due process.
PHILLIP: Well, it's not Trump's decision to decide that. I think that's the end of the story, is that it's not Trump who decides whether -- when the due process ends. It's a process for a reason. So --
MILLS: Or to unilaterally decide this person is good, this person is bad because I saw a picture of fake texts or whatever it is. You have to have --
JENNINGS: They're not fake, though, by the way.
UNGAR-SARGON: But he literally committed to following what the Supreme Court says.
PHILLIP: But why does --
BLOW: The people have said, bring the man back, and he still has not --
UNGAR-SARGON: They said, facilitate.
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: I love what people wrestle. As a writer, I love people who wrestle over terms of art.
PHILLIP: Has he facilitated it?
JENNINGS: They said they would accept him back. I mean, they've made that pretty clear. But that's different than effectuate.
(CROSSTALKS)
MILLS: The Supreme Court said that for a reason because they could not mandate it because what if it cost going to war or something? The Supreme Court doesn't have the power to authorize that. That's why the Supreme Court was limited to facilitate because they could not mandate a--
PHILLIP: You know, so Stephen Miller says, the right of due process is to protect citizens from their government, not to protect foreign trespassers from removal. Due process guarantees the rights of criminal defendants facing prosecution, not an illegal alien facing deportation, Donte.
MILLS: Well, I think we just heard from two very well-respected Supreme Court justices that said there's no distinction. If you are in America, you have the right to due process. The levels can be different, and, in fact, it is. If you're an immigrant, you're not entitled to the same legal standard that someone else has to prove if you're a citizen in criminal court, which makes it easier, which means he should be willing to say, I have proof that this is a person that needs to leave this country. And if you show that in a court it's determined or hearing, then they have the right to leave, you have the right to remove them.
[22:15:00]
But you can't just randomly pick people and say, everybody's bad, everybody's bad, everybody's out no matter what.
PHILLIP: Well, some of them have been random. I think that that's why we're having this conversation. There have been -- there's a lot of documented evidence that people have been picked up. The only evidence against them is the existence of tattoos. And that is exactly why due process exists.
And, I mean, you, we can talk about Kilmar Abrego all day long, and I think that's a worthy discussion, but you cannot ignore that the other types of cases are happening, and that's one of the reasons why this is in court.
JEMELE HILL, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Yes. And not only that, I want to push back on something that you said about, well, what he meant was. It feels like we play that game with him a lot. He is saying and looking at us and saying, and answering the question exactly how he was asked it. And so when we get into this whole, well, he didn't really mean it that way, it's giving him a free pass to basically play these kinds of games.
JENNINGS: He was very clear. UNGAR-SARGON: You heard he's committed to follow the Supreme Court, right?
JENNINGS: He said, I'll follow the Supreme Court, period. You heard him.
HILL: He was asked about the Constitution, correct? He was asked about the Constitution?
JENNINGS: He was asked about the specific issue regarding Fifth Amendment rights and due process rights, and then he said, we're going to follow the Supreme Court.
HILL: And, unfortunately, actions are so loud --
JENNINGS: Would follow the Constitution?
PHILLIP: Listen, I keep -- the reason I wanted to play that is because I think Jemele is right, right? I think it's actually pretty disingenuous to suggest he didn't say what he said. She was asked -- she said to him, Kristen Welker, the Fifth Amendment says that they do have due process rights. And he says, I don't know. It seems it might say that, but if you're talking about that, we might have a million or 2 million or 3 million trials.
JENNINGS: Yes, it's a legitimate position.
PHILLIP: Look, in this country, we teach high schoolers to read the Constitution. Why is it that the standard for the president of the United States seems to be lower?
JENNINGS: He has a legitimate policy question about what kind of process it takes to get someone out of the country is.
PHILLIP: It is a constitutional question.
JENNINGS: He's looking at millions upon millions of people sitting here, some for years upon years, going through endless systems, endless paperwork, and he's asking a legitimate question.
PHILLIP: But, Scott, this is not a policy question. It's a constitutional question.
JENNINGS: Because you just said there's different levels of due process.
MILLS: Absolutely.
JENNINGS: And he's asking, do you have to give them this level, or do you have to give him this level? And what's the Supreme Court ultimately going to say about that?
MILLS: (INAUDIBLE) and sending them away without giving them any kind of hearing.
JENNINGS: Well, I agree with Batya. The person that's been in the news had plenty of hearings and plenty of times.
PHILLIP: Okay. I mean, I think it's apparent to people at home that it's easy to divert to Kilmar Abrego Garcia because --
JENNINGS: Well, he's in the news every day.
PHILLIP: Yes, I understand that. But, I mean, the broader principle is what's at question here, and that's actually what he was asked about was, generally speaking, do people deserve to at least say, hey, that's not me?
MILLS: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: That's a pretty basic question. If someone came to you and said, oh, Scott Jennings, are you the Scott Jennings from Colorado who committed a murder? Wouldn't she want to raise your hand and say, your Honor, that's not me?
JENNINGS: Well, I'm not a foreign terrorist and I didn't come here.
MILLS: How do you know if they're a foreign terrorist if you don't ask the question?
JENNINGS: In the case of Abrego Garcia, we know.
(CROSSTALKS)
HILL: You're pointing to one case and ignoring all the others.
BLOW: We also have to address this point you keep making about how long it's taken the pace of the deportations. It wouldn't have taken so long if Donald Trump had not killed the immigration bill that was going to provide more judges to help facilitate more of these things.
You can't have it both ways and say it's taken a long time.
JENNINGS: More judges, more paperwork.
BLOW: So, right, more planes, more prisons in South America.
JENNINGS: We will red tape this to death and we will never get rid of the invasion.
BLOW: So, you don't want to -- so you run over the Constitution because wore tired and you want to go faster?
MILLS: Do you care if somebody was sent to prison in El Salvador, whatever, and they didn't do anything wrong, it was the wrong person? Would that matter to you?
JENNINGS: I don't think Garcia was the wrong person.
MILLS: It should matter. We're not talking about one person. We're talking about generally. It can happen if you don't have due process.
JENNINGS: I would care if it was the wrong person, but in the case of Garcia --
MILLS: So, the only way to prevent that --
JENNINGS: In the case of Garcia, I have no doubt it was the right person.
MILLS: So, put to the side. Put it to the side. If the wrong person is sent, it should matter. And the only make sure it's the right person --
JENNINGS: What's the circumstance? Are they here illegally? Did they have a deportation order? Did they beat their wife? Did they get picked up for human trafficking? You tell me.
PHILLIP: You know what, Scott? Actually, I think that you're -- again, if they have a deportation order, that's actually a different circumstance. A lot of these people, maybe most of them, who they tried to deport under the Alien Enemies Act, it's not clear that they did. So, that's part of the problem as well.
Look, past presidents have deported a lot of people, many people, and they've done so under the law. So, I don't think it's impossible for Trump to do the same.
JENNINGS: I think we're living in an unprecedented situation. That's my view.
PHILLIP: All right. And, Donte, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else stick around.
Coming up next, while the president has been obsessed with dolls lately, Mattel is now saying that because of his tariffs, Barbies are going to cost a lot more.
Plus, Trump wants to reopen Alcatraz, one of America's most notorious prisons.
[22:20:00]
Is this a good idea or just a pipe dream? Another special guest is going to join us at the table.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, lights, camera, tariffs. The president is extending his trade war to movies, vowing to slap a 100 percent tariffs on films produced outside of the United States. The details, like many of his recent economic moves, are unclear. But if you're wondering where he got this idea, a source tells CNN, the president met with actor and vocal supporter Jon Voight over the weekend. Then Trump made the announcement sending shock waves across the industry.
You may also remember Trump named Voight as one of his special ambassadors to Hollywood, along with Stallone and Mel Gibson.
[22:25:05] But I personally am curious what Gibson thinks of this idea since his film, the Passion of The Christ, the sequel begins filming this summer in Italy.
Jason Carter joins us in our fifth seat at the table. He is a former Georgia state senator and President Jimmy Carter's grandson.
You know, this is not so much about Hollywood because, you know, whatever, they'll figure it out, but it's a question about Trump's decision-making. And it's this, another conversation about with Nick Saban produced an executive order on college athlete payments. The last person to whisper in his ear gets apparently an executive order.
FMR. STATE SEN. JASON CARTER (D-GA): Yes. I mean, he talked to the waitress and came with no tax on tips, right? I mean, there's a lot of questions. But the biggest problem that I have with it, and we've been talking about it this whole time, is it's about why is one person making all of these decisions right now, right? The president under both parties has probably gotten to be too strong. Where is Congress? Why is Congress -- we haven't talked about Congress in a month, it seems like, on any program, because we're trying to figure --
PHILLIP: Several months, actually.
CARTER: Yes, right, months, right? And so the question then is why is it that it's all about the president. It leads to bad policy. It's a big problem. It's got constitutional problems for both parties. And the question is, is he going to be able to deliver? And it looks like the answer is no.
HILL: Yes. And the thing is it is a real problem in terms of Hollywood having to shoot movies elsewhere to try to keep costs down. So, he was actually -- I can't believe I'm saying that, he was actually right about this. The --
PHILLIP: I didn't know you would come down on this.
HILL: Yes, I know. He was actually right about that. The thing is he presented a bad solution. And, you know, they're not necessarily stealing jobs. They found it easier to take Americans crew and personnel here over to other countries to fix this.
And what's also not clear is if Jon Voight, he didn't propose this as a solution. I think it appears, based off the reports, that I think they were thinking more along the lines of, you know, different states or maybe even a national federal film tax credit, which a lot of these --
PHILLIP: Which works really well.
HILL: Which works really well, right? That's a good solution.
CARTER: Including in Georgia, by the way.
JENNINGS: And, fortunately, if you look at the late reporting today, the White House has said that the president is looking at having meetings with Hollywood executives, that they're studying the idea and he said, quote, I don't want to hurt the industry. I want to help the industry.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: It's like a backwards process. He announces the policy and then says, oh, actually we're going to go back and maybe look at it later.
JENNINGS: Well, I want -- do you want him to have meetings or not?
HILL: I want him to have the meeting before he actually says something that actually matters.
BLOW: I think we have to think about how he is dominating the kind of information-attention economies. And if you look at the number of tweets he put out in the first a hundred days of his last term, he has put out three times as many Truth Social posts. He has outpaced any president in a number of executive orders, and he's golfing every weekend. So, that means that what he's doing is just simply overwhelming people. It's like a spaghetti windmill, throwing everything at the wall and see what sticks, and we talk about it. He follows up with that thing.
But if you have 1,500 Truth Social tweets, he's not following every one of them because it doesn't get everybody talking. And I think that that is a problem for us because people can't organize either resistance or even conversation around what he's doing because they're so completely overwhelmed by the fact that he's pumping out so much stuff.
PHILLIP: Well, he's also -- I mean, I think that his strategy of overwhelming people is right. I think we also have to think about what happens on the weekends at the White House, because that's the Wild West for Trump and his social media use. But he also seems to think, Batya, that tariffs are the answer to everything. And I know that you agree with him on that, actually. But he keeps going after the dolls, okay?
Here's what he said to NBC about this issue of whether or not girls are going to be able to have the dolls that they want for the holidays.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm just saying they don't need to have 30 dolls. They can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five.
All I'm saying is that a young lady, a 10-year-old girl, 9-year-old girl, 15-year-old girl, doesn't need 37 dolls. She could be very happy with two or three or four or five.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I don't get it. It's like, you know, stop, just put the shovel down at a certain point. I mean, this doesn't seem to be the best argument.
CARTER: Like four, five pencils.
[22:30:00]
UNGAR-SARGON: You know what? This is kind of making me think a lot about is the fact that every rich person I know, their daughter has two or three dolls, maybe a couple American girl dolls, two or three expensive, nice dolls, and no crap from China. But if you go into a broke person's house, that floor is littered with broken toys from the dollar store.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, now we're shaming people for --
(CROSSTALK)
UNGAR-SARGON: -- is the opportunity to make enough money to make the same decisions that every rich person is already making and keeping the cheap toys away from their kids. And the people braying the loudest about this are the people who would never let their kids buy those crappy toys.
And it is so offensive to me because when you talk to working class people, they sound just like the president. They would love to be buying high-quality stuff for their kids instead of a thousand cheap things that are going to break immediately because that's what they can afford.
CHARLES BLOW, AUTHOR, "THE DEVIL YOU KNOW": That's the worst, worst defense about Trump because China makes 80 percent of all toys sold in this country and 90 percent of all Christmas goods sold in this country. We have a lot of leverage with China. The Christmas in the doll industry is not one of them.
JEMELE HILL, "THE ATLANTIC" CONTRIBUTING WRITER: Right.
BLOW: When you start -- you start rationing dolls for American people, you're losing the argument. It's giving screw device.
HILL: Yeah, right.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Is it a good thing that we're so dependent on China for anything?
BLOW: It's not a good thing --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: But you're patiently arguing for it.
BLOW: What I'm arguing is -- what I'm saying is that he's losing the argument because this idea is like, oh, we can buy American doll -- girl dolls and all of us will be just so happy. Well, 80 -- no, 80 percent of all toys would not -- not -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can I offer another look at this, Batya? Hold on a second. One -- let me -- let -- let's think about this, like, for real. Like, people who really don't have a lot of money, they're -- here's what they're really thinking. They're not thinking, I want to buy the most expensive doll for my child. They're thinking, I want to buy a doll for my child so that I can also afford food. I can also afford clothes. I can also afford to send them to school.
So, the idea that the -- the whole thing is about buying more and more expensive goods, that seems to completely miss the point about what's happening in terms of people who are actually struggling in this country.
UNGAR-SARGON: The point is -- is that the reason they can only afford toys from China is because we cannot afford to consume the product of the American worker --
PHILLIP: But what if they --
UNGAR-SARGON: What is the because of the offshoring of manufacturing.
PHILLIP: Maybe -
UNGAR-SARGON: If they were making the toys, they would be able to afford them.
PHILLIP: But what about --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Isn't there -- but isn't there values - okay, sorry.
UNGAR-SARGON: This was Fordism. This was the Democrats' idea for all kinds of different tiers.
PHILLIP: But, like, isn't -- isn't there a values judgment here that says, it is more important to manufacture chips, you know, computer chips here than it is to manufacture dolls. And that it's okay for China to manufacture dolls because we don't really need that doll industry so much.
JENNINGS: Wow. What's wrong with it?
PHILLIP: And, because -- because it's fine.
JENNINGS: Why is it -- why is it okay to seed anything to China? They're the enemy.
UNKNOWN: Also, Abby --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I mean, you're here -- hey, let's hope China gets to that. Why do you like to seed anything to the enemy? PHILLIP: First in line -- first in line for the shoe factory over here, and then first in line for the doll factory over here.
(CROSSTALK)
UNGAR-SARGON: -- ways on the one hand you're saying that they have to have access to 30 cheap dolls, on the other hand you're saying, why do we need to make dolls? We need to make what Americans consume.
PHILLIP: OK.
UNGAR-SARGON: It's not important to have one factory over another. It's important for working class people to have access to the American dream.
PHILLIP: So Jason, are you ready to get in?
JASON CARTER, JIMMY CARTER'S GRANDSON: Well, my -- my only point is this, we are talking about dolls. The president is talking about dolls. Like, I live in Georgia. What people are talking about there, it's not dolls. They don't want to see the president worrying about dolls.
They do, yes, want to see them bring prices down on the staples of their lives, right? Let's look at inflation. Let's look at the way that people's 401-Ks are getting destroyed. Let's look at this variety of other things out there.
BLOW: You got to say we live in Georgia.
CARTER: We - we -- I mean, look, like, but my only point is this, like -- like how we ended up with the president of the United States spending all this time on dolls, it just blows my mind. Like, I think he's going to have to start delivering on the promises that he's made, and so far it's all distraction. It's -- let's talk about Barbie. Let's talk about Alcatraz. Let's talk about Hollywood.
UNGAR-SARGON: He attracted $1.5 trillion in manufacturing to this country in the last hundred days. How can you not have economic status as a win?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK, so well then -- so, when maybe he should stop telling people that their stuff is about to get more expensive. Clearly, the money he -- whatever he's brought in as investment, it is not addressing the affordability issue that he acknowledges is there. So, we, look --
JENNINGS: Well, it might -- it might if they produce high-paying jobs for the American people.
PHILLIP: All right. We'll see. We will see if that happens and if those investments actually materialize. Coming up next for us, forget Gitmo. Donald Trump now wants to reopen Alcatraz to send America's most -- most ruthless prisoners there. We're going to debate the merits of that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:39:20]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump is pitching a return to The Rock. He wants to reopen Alcatraz to house America's most ruthless and violent criminals. You'll remember the site of the -- is off the San Francisco Bay, and it is now a tourist attraction. It was once forced to close because of crumbling infrastructure and extreme maintenance costs. So, here is Trump explaining his idea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I guess I was supposed to be a movie maker. Nobody's ever escaped from Alcatraz and just represented something strong having to do with law and order. We need law and order in this country, and so we're going to look at it.
[22:40:00]
Some of the people up here are going to be working very hard on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Was the president watching too many movies this weekend or something?
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I also thought he suggested that.
PHILLIP: The -- the -- this is the era of DOGE. The idea of reopening a prison that's been closed for many, many decades because it just doesn't make sense to house people there. Why?
JENNINGS: Well, does it? I don't know. He said he was going to study it. I mean, we have a prison overcrowding problem. You've been fussing about recently him sending American criminals overseas to their prisons. Don't we need more prisons in the United States? What's wrong with this?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK. OK. Well, I mean, look. All right. Let's take it at face value. Why Alcatraz? It costs three times as much to put prisoners there than you put them.
JENNINGS: How do you know?
PHILLIP: You could go put them in the --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You're on a-- you're on a actuary study on it on a weekend? PHILLIP: OK. All right. Let me -- let me -- hold on -- hold on.
JENNINGS: I mean, we don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: What's wrong with studying it?
PHILLIP: All right, don't take my word for it. Don't take my word for it. Here is the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Alcatraz closed after 29 years of operation because the institution was too expensive to continue operating.
An estimated three to five million was needed just for restoration and maintenance work to keep the prison open. That figure did not include the daily operating costs. Alcatraz was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other federal prison. It is in the middle of a body of water.
JENNINGS: What would it -- what would it cost to build a new one? How many millions? I don't know. But I know we need more prisons. I know we need more space.
PHILLIP: All right. You know, it's also --
JENNINGS: You know, I'm trying to study it. I don't have a problem with studying it.
PHILLIP: What -- what it -- you know, it's also possible to say that this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
HILL: Always got to call them a dumb idea. You know what I mean?
PHILLIP: It's okay.
HILL: Because I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- is all that sold on this idea, to be honest. I think he -- it just popped into his head.
JENNINGS: OK.
PHILLIP: And he said it out loud.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
CARTER: It's theatrics and it's interesting theatrics and if it's to generate a bunch of discussion, again, my -- my question repeatedly is, if we have a problem, like, why don't we tackle it like we've always tackled other problems?
Congress looks at it, they say let's spend some money, here's how much it costs, here's what we need, here's what we're trying to do, but that's not really what this is about. It's about I'm powerful and I want to express that part.
JENNINGS: Do you not let I have an idea?
BLOW: But it's also like this obsession with -- with symbols and imagery, you know. The -- the wall whether it was going to be effective or not, it was really about the symbol of it. It is making a parade out of these deportations. It is about the imagery of that. It's about him questioning Mount Rushmore.
If you just look through the things that animate him about what he really gets excited about, it is about branding, it is about imagery, it is about kind of this nationalism. The fact that they're going to consider or probably I guess now really have this military parade, we don't need a military parade. We don't need to spend millions or maybe hundreds of millions of dollars to do that. But we want to do it because he has to feed his inner image monster.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And he said it himself. He said it himself. He wants -- he -- maybe he --
UNKNOWN: Are you guys going to --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I don't think it's called --
BLOW: You can't have been cutting tens of thousands of federal workers at the same time you say we're going to waste money on a military program.
JENNINGS: Why is it wasting?
BLOW: It is wasteful.
JENNINGS: Why?
BLOW: What do we need to show off our military for? But that -- that strong man is -- strong men -- strong men do that. That has nothing to do with pride in the military. Strong men do that because they want to make their citizens cower. They want to say we are strong. I am here. I have all these weapons. Aren't you proud of me?
We don't need to do that. We know that our military is, you know, multiples, the size of anybody else's military on the planet. We don't need them to bring the missiles down Pennsylvania Avenue in order for us to know that.
JENNINGS: It's not about the size. In the last four years, morale and military was down, recruitment was down. There is a concerted effort going on right now at the Pentagon, and it's already successful to enhance recruitment and to enhance pride and the idea of joining the military. I think you all are --
(CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: -- discounting the idea that a national parade for our military to -- to show off our military, to show pride in the veterans that have defended this country, and you all are --
BLOW: I'm not the veterans. He was just trying to rename Veterans' Day.
CARTER: I'm -- I'm too proud of our military, but I don't think we should waste money. I think that the -- the worst thing from morale that I've seen, is Pete Hegseth as the defense secretary.
JENNINGS: That's the worst thing I've seen?
CARTER: For morale?
HILL: Yeah.
JENNINGS: The literal worst thing I've seen?
CARTER: I think pretty much. I mean, it's embarrassing. If you want to embarrass people --
JENNINGS: Talk to-- talk to a rank and file military personnel -- at that point it was off.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You know, you know, I mean, look. We - the conversation we weren't planning on it going toward military parades, but since you brought up recruitment, speaking of money, the number one thing that has helped boost recruitment is giving them more -- giving recruits more money.
UNKNOWN: Shocking.
PHILLIP: Which began under the previous administration -- President Biden. So, you're right that recruitment is improving, but it's also because we're giving them funds. And we're encouraging them to join.
HILL: One tiny observation. Roger Goodell, the NFL commissioner, who was standing next to Trump --
PHILLIP: I know -- just watching their faces.
HILL: His life in that moment. They came there for this great announcement to talk about the NFL draft, coming to Washington D.C., which will pour obviously a lot of money into D.C.
[22:45:00]
And he is just sitting there looking as miserable as possible.
PHILLIP: All right. You know, the -- the -- I mean, I'm fascinated by this Alcatraz thing. I mean, Trump also made up this story about what happened to inmates who tried to escape Alcatraz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nobody ever escaped. One person almost got there, but they -- as you know the story, they found his clothing rather badly ripped up, and, it was a lot of shark bites, a lot of -- lot of problems. Nobody's ever escaped from Alcatraz.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Policy by movie script writing. I mean, this would be a great movie, but --
JENNINGS: It was a great movie. He did destroy Alcatraz in the movie.
PHILLIP: But he's the President of the United States. I mean, what is going on here?
UNGAR-SARGON: You know, I have to just bring up something about Trump in prisons that no one ever talks about. He never gets credit for, which is the First Step Act. He released 5000 black men from prison, and he never gets any credit for this.
He was one of the -- I mean, the first president in decades to actually shrink the population in our prisons. I just dispute this idea that he's some sort of, like, you know, that the nationalism is -- is somehow, like, dangerous to Americans. We need a dose of that. We need a dose of thinking about, like, which Americans should we be helping? Which Americans should we be focused on? Which vulnerable Americans deserve our attention? And I think that this presidency is really --
BLOW: I think what about black men have to do with Alcatraz? I'm -- I'm just --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK. I will -- all I will say is that I do think that Trump -- Trump probably does deserve more credit for the First Step Act, but you also have to acknowledge very recently, he has made it very clear he would like to build more prisons, fill them up with many more people, and that's also part of his policy. So, you have to square those two things at the same time. You might believe that it's for the good reasons, but he has said that as, well.
So, coming up next, the panel's going to give us their night caps. They're going to tell us what they ban at parties inspired by fashion's biggest night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:51:46]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, the Met Gala edition. Tonight is fashion's biggest event where celebrities descend on the Metropolitan Museum in their high fashion outfits, and there is a long list of things that they cannot do once they are inside. No phones, no social media, no selfies, no vaping, no parsley, onions, or garlic on the menu. You each have 30 seconds to tell us what would you ban from your party. Batya?
UNGAR-SARGON: I would ban people who don't drink. Stop coming to Shabbat dinner and not drinking wine because everyone else is drinking, and everybody else is going to have no idea what they said the next day, and you're going to remember what everyone said. It's not fair.
HILL: That -- that actually is a fair point. I like that.
UNGAR-SARGON: I said what I said.
HILL: Yes, I would ban much like the Met Gala, I would ban cell phones because people don't dance no more.
PHILLIP: That's true.
HILL: All they do is this.
PHILLIP: Yes.
HILL: All they do is this.
PHILLIP: Ban cell phones everywhere.
HILL: Yes. I want to get back to dancing and have those sweaty house parties that we all used to love --
PHILLIP: Yes.
HILL: -- and sweating our hair out and everything. I can't tell you the last time I've been to a party when that's happened.
CARTER: Yeah, and you're and you're worried about it because of the -- because of the -- you're worried about the pictures?
Hill: No. It's just --
PHILLIP: Other people are worried about it.
HILL: That's true. That's true. That's right.
CARTER: My -- my two cents, I think I said I would ban nothing. I mean, it's a party. Like, you all are from Karen's out here. Like, you know what? If you want to do this, if you want to eat a bunch of chives and stink like I've -- like all fine, like breathe fire if you want to, but it's a party. Let's like do what we want out here.
BLOW: Well, at a gala like the Met Gala, I don't like the props. Like, you are enough. Dress up, your outfit says enough. You say enough. Your personality says enough. Don't bring me props.
PHILLIP: No grand piano.
BLOW: No, no, none of it. None of it. Yes.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I -- you know, I don't like props either in general, like in life. Yes.
HILL: I don't hate dancing entrances -- his intro. That's all I can say --
JENNINGS: I have multiple things I would get rid of. Number -- but the like, the older I get, ambient noise, I can't hear anybody. I go to these parties. I went to these parties at the White House Correspondents' -- I couldn't hear anybody.
I literally couldn't hear a thing that was being said, so I would like a decibel police to go around. And if it gets too loud or you're a loud talker or you're playing the music, too, I'll tell you something else.
PHILLIP: So like no music?
JENNINGS: I don't like -- maybe. I don't like --
CARTER: I just think you don't like parties.
JENNINGS: I don't like foods that have more than two ingredients. Like, I don't want stuff with yuzu and ube -- infused kimchi with a matcha dust. Can you just get me a Vienna sausage with a, like, a fork or a, like, a little toothpick in it? That's all I really need.
CARTER: You think that's just one ingredient?
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: That's what I want. I just want something simple.
PHILLIP: Oh my God. Don't burst this Vienna sausage bubble. OK? That's -- all right, everybody. Thank you very much. Next, for the -- for 90 seconds, air traffic controllers couldn't see the planes that they were directing. A safety crisis is developing tonight at Newark Airport. We'll tell you about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:17]
PHILLIP: It's a growing mess that, God forbid, could end in disaster. For 90 seconds last week, air traffic controllers at one of the nation's busiest airports had no idea where the planes were.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: We lost to our radar, and it's not working correctly. Radar service terminates, block BFR, green screen approved. If you want a proper clearance, you can just call the towers when you get closer.
UNKNOWN: OK, I'll wait for that frequency from you. OK?
UNKNOWN: No. Just walk me as far. Look up the tower frequencies. We don't have a radar, so I don't know where you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Some of those air traffic controllers say it was so traumatizing that they're now on medical leave. The staffing shortages and outdated equipment are just two of the issues causing massive delays in Newark Airport.
[23:00:00]
And officials fear the disruption may last for weeks. Tonight, the transportation secretary is teasing changes to the system. It's worth noting, last Friday, despite being days into the safety crisis, Sean Duffy, the transportation secretary, tweeted about his taco dinner.
And thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
