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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Conservative Says, Donald Trump is a Socialist; Trump Teases a Trade Deal Tomorrow Without Specifics; Judge Warns Trump Admin Against Deportations to Libya. "NewsNight" Panelists Debate On Deportations In The Trump Administration; Some Actors Unwilling To Perform For President Trump At The Kennedy Center Next Month; Biden Appears In A First Interview After Leaving White House. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 07, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, sacrifice, control, a committee of one. Donald Trump's evolving view of the economy begs the question, is he a socialist?
Plus, the world map becomes a deportation.
REPORTER: Are your administration is sending migrants to Libya?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't know.
PHILLIP: So, who's throwing the darts?
Also, Scranton Joe returns to the office.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: What the hell going on here?
PHILLIP: But do liberals want to see a new episode?
And he dreamed a dream of taking over the arts, but the arts and Les Mis head for the exits.
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Arthur Aidala, Ashley Allison, Joe Borelli, and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about. Is Donald Trump a socialist? That provocative question is being posed by a conservative columnist as more on the right slam what the president is doing to the economy. But it is deeper than the right's caricature of socialism with AOC and Bernie Sanders that everything should be free and capitalism is the enemy.
In The Dispatch, Kevin Williamson writes that real socialism in countries includes, quote, a centrally planned economy, one that is dominated by state action. Here are just some of his examples. Socialists use sacrifice as a theme. Be content with less to help the nation. Does that sound familiar to you?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We may have short-term, some little pain, and people understand that.
It'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that.
I'm just saying they don't need to have 30 dolls. They can have 3. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have 5.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Number two, control, the government should decide everything from prices to interest rates. Now, if that sounds familiar, it's because you just heard Trump say it last week, quote, we are a department store and we set the price. I meet with the companies, then I set a fair price, what I consider to be a fair price. He goes on to say, I set the tariffs on countries.
And socialism trait number three, a figurehead, someone who says, I'll be the one to exert that control, to make the decisions. Sound familiar?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: To anyone on Wall Street this morning, I would say trust in President Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life's going to be beautiful here in America. Trust in Trump.
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: The investors trust President Trump.
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Come on, let the guy build America back and just, and trust them and he's really, really on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And we haven't even mentioned Trump's spending spree ideas, like no taxes on tips without justifying how to pay for them.
So, question for the table here, I mean, Arthur is like -- you're looking at me.
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is Trump a socialist.
PHILLIP: Is he a socialist?
AIDALA: No. I mean, look --
PHILLIP: Is this MAGA socialism?
AIDALA: I know this is not exactly the road you want to go down, but I had this conversation this morning with my wife, like does our three-year-old need ten dolls? Like I tell you quick, can't she get by with two? Like we got presents on Christmas, Easter, and your birthday. Those were the three days you got presents. But I think what Trump is saying is no pain, no gain. If we got to fix some stuff, we're going to have to absorb some pain. But in the long run, trust Trump and it's going to work out.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, the answer is?
AIDALA: He's not a socialist. That's ridiculous. It's insane.
PHILLIP: I mean, but a lot of the arguments that have been made by Republicans over the years really do sound like exactly what Trump is espousing. Here is more from Kevin Williamson. Donald Trump's vision of the economy is classic socialism. Trump's view of a man at a desk, moving pieces of the economy around like rooks and pawns on a chessboard is what socialism is about.
JORE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: But you understand that's a metaphor. That's just the opinion of that writer. And this is a writer in a newspaper who's struggling for relevance, right? The Dispatch -- where's The Dispatch? It's a bunch of old Republican, old right-wing news time people, right? Newspaper people who formed this organization to basically find some new relevance. And they knew that if they gave a headline, Trump is a socialist, people would not only click on it, but other media outlets would start covering it. Is Trump a socialist? No.
Let's talk about Bernie Sanders.
[22:05:00]
Bernie Sanders vacations in Cuba, praises the Cuban leadership, vacations in the USSR, praises the USSR. Praises --
PHILLIP: Well, let's talk about the policies though, Joe. Let's talk about the actual policies.
BORELLI: Having a tariff is not setting a price, having a tariff by which another country or in the importer has to pay the tariff isn't setting the price --
PHILLIP: What about saying to companies, you must come to the White House and clear how you list your prices on your website? You can't raise prices because I said so. What about that?
BORELLI: But is he suggesting it or is he doing it with a barrel of a gun? Because if you look at in a communist country, in a socialist countries, suggesting something --
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: My guy, Joe, is my pulling out page two of the Trump playbook. Because when you don't have like a really good argument on policy about why Trump is doing certain things, then you attack the personalities or you attack the institutions. So, instead of talking about Trump's proposal, Joe just did what Trump always does, which is just to attack the newspaper and the writers, et cetera.
The fact is Trump isn't a socialist. I mean, I agree with you on that. I just think he's inept. I mean, the chaos that he has up there, he literally looks as if he is in deep water, doesn't know what he's doing and he actually has some decent people around him. I like the treasury secretary from Charleston, South Carolina. I wish he got an opportunity to lead. He doesn't.
Look, if we wanted to go out and put 10 percent tariffs across the board on every country, Congress should do that. They should step on the table. That should be a compromise. They should do it in six months so companies can have some consistency. That's all they're looking for.
The market is in shambles. The economy is shrinking. Consumer confidence is going down, and we're about to see this play out not only with wages, but employment. Trump isn't a socialist. I just think Trump is not smart.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I, listen, I lived through a right wing dictatorship in Nicaragua.
SELLERS: Tell us more, yes.
NAVARRO: And I lived as a child through left wing dictatorship, the socialist, the Sandinistas. What do they do? They like to ration things, right?
So, the things that are coming out of Trump's mouth sound like rationing for the American people. I agree with you. He's not a socialist. What he is as an authoritarian and what he is a corrupt hypocrite. Because at the same time that he's telling you that you can only give your children five pencils and three dolls, he is making billions of dollars, he and his family are making billions of dollars out of a crypto grift. His wife is getting paid tens of millions of dollars, $40 million, by Amazon for a documentary based on the coffee book that she put out on her life.
And so it's incredibly hypocritical for, you know, these billionaires to be telling the American people who are having a hard time paying for their groceries, that they should endure a little pain. It is cruel. It is like so nonchalant, so --
BORELLI: But where were all these arguments when Joe Biden's inflation was killing America? This is what --
NAVARRO: Did he ever tell people, go ahead, feel a little pain?
BORELLI: He didn't have to tell it. When you went to the grocery store, your bill was $400 more than it was last week.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The reality is they still are feeling that pain and they're going to continue to feel more.
If you don't want to buy your daughter more than three dolls, or your son more than three dolls, don't, but you can buy them ten because we live in America and we should have that choice. It's not the president's role to say, your kids only need three dolls or ten dolls. That's the first point.
AIDALA: (INAUDIBLE) people aren't going to have money to buy the doll?
ALLISON: Well, they aren't going to have money to pay the dolls. We aren't going to have the dolls. The dolls are going to be too expensive. It's going to be a compound effect because of what Donald Trump is doing.
The second thing is you talked about The Dispatch being just some old Republican, that's your party. These people that are writing this are like people that probably voted for Donald Trump.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: If you don't like The Dispatch, fine. Here's the National Review. The man who for decades has been a symbol of unapologetic American excess is now defending his tariff policies by making the case against abundance. Trump is now arguing the children are going to have to get used to having less.
BORELLI: As luck would have it, I came here from the Manhattan Institute Gala and who was sitting right next to me at the table, but the editors, some of the editors, from National Review. And I said, I think I'm talking about you guys tonight. I said, let me ask you something. You guys disagree with Trump a lot, right? And they say, yes, our paper, we sometimes disagree with Trump. Do you have any buyer's remorse in voting and supporting Trump over Kamala Harris? And it was met with a roar of laughter, like, no, absolutely not. And they cited things like DEI and other things that they were appreciative of.
We have a big tent party and we can disagree, but I do not think that any one article or two articles saying Trump's a socialist should trigger --
ALLISON: I don't think Trump is a socialist either.
BORELLI: This is my point. This article is so ridiculous --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me ask liberals at the table a question, because I'm actually very curious about this. Why are you all so opposed to the idea that maybe Trump actually might support socialist ideas? Is it because there are who identify that way in your party?
SELLERS: No, because I think that there are people who on the left who would be aghast right now on the internet and everywhere else if you lump me in with the AOCs and Bernie Sanders of the world, and that's not it at all. [22:10:05]
I just think we're giving Donald Trump too much credit.
Yes, and what I would also --
PHILLIP: Wait, I don't giving -- that calling Trump a socialist was necessarily giving it credit. It's not a compliment.
SELLERS: No, because it seems as if he's accident accidentally falling into some robust political policy.
AIDALA: But, Bakari, here's the thing, not this is what's not ringing true though. Look at the automobile industry based on these tariffs. Do you know how many companies are now going to build their cars in America? Honda's expanding their plan. Volkswagen is expanding, 46 months.
ALLISON: Ford just said today that they're raising prices.
AIDALA: They're raising prices and laying people off. You know why? Because Ford build some of their stuff in Mexico and in Canada, but did Europeans and then Japanese are coming to America to create jobs.
SELLERS: One second, just two fundamental questions. You do realize that there's no such thing as a fully American-made vehicle, because even the big three utilize pieces from Mexico and Canada, therefore the price is going up?
AIDALA: What about Tesla?
SELLERS: But what I want to --
AIDALA: Tesla is the number one -- Tesla is the number one vehicle made with American parts.
PHILLIP: Okay let me --
AIDALA: Honda is number two.
PHILLIP: Okay. Arthur, let respond to that. Tesla is more American made than those other cars. But even they have said the tariffs are going to hurt us.
SELLERS: Do you think the tariff is good policy? That's what -- I mean, that's the large question. Do you actually think --
AIDALA: I don't know. 145 percent on China is a good thing.
SELLERS: Do you think this willy-nilly tariff policy is good, not the insults on The Dispatch or National Review and even that rubber chicken at the Gala tonight, like do you think that this --
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: Really, the working class party here -- PHILLIP: Hold on, guys. Hold on.
NAVARRO: The problem, you know, so whether he's a socialist or not, I think, you know, is not a relevant question. But he does have authoritarian characteristics that I think are far more troublesome, the attacks on the media, the attacks on the arts, the unwillingness to accept election results, I mean the election. He's already -- he's still there and he won't accept the election results from 2020. These are all things that Ortega does, that Maduro does that, the Castros did, the weaponizing of government against their opposition. Those are all things that dictators do.
And so I will keep saying that he walks like a duck. He talks like a duck and he looks like a duck. Is that the saying?
ALLISON: Yes it is. I think --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Yes, there you go.
ALLISON: One thing to take it off of the term of socialism, one thing that I think that those two articles, because they're conservative outlets are doing, and I said this actually before the election, I don't know when the Republican Party will actually have a split, but the direction is going. There are Republicans that find Trump's economic policies troubling, whether it's tariffs, whether -- and I think there are Democrats and progressives that also are finding the policies as a Democratic Party troubling.
And what I think is actually happening in this moment is we are starting to actually be on the verge of this traditional two party system that has happened in America because of some of the extremes on both sides that people are going to -- and I don't think it's going to be progressives go mo more to the left, and Republicans go -- I think it's going to be a configuration of people from both parties that find themselves in the center and an independent verge, because none of this is sustainable. And I think that's actually what this article is suggesting.
NAVARRO: I think the reason you haven't seen that split is because Republicans, like a lot of other Americans, are incredibly afraid of Donald Trump and the hell that will rain on them. We heard -- we actually heard Susan Collins, Murkowski, Lisa Murkowski say that just a few weeks ago. Look at what's happening to Thom Tillis, the senator, because he's saying he refuses to vote for Ed Martin.
BORELLI: But you understand when people say they're afraid of Donald Trump, they're afraid of the electoral consequences of going against him. That is because the electoral results are fundamentally based on --
SELLERS: No, that's -- but the fear is --
BORELLI: People are -- whether you like it or not, people in the Republican Party and many outside of the Republican Party are still supportive --
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: They're afraid of voters. They're not afraid. You compared him to Maduro, throw someone in the --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: I think you're missing it because I think that fear is slightly deeper. My grandmother used to have this saying that you can't fall off the floor, right? And as an eight-year-old, that didn't mean a whole lot to me. But as you get older, you begin to realize what that means. There are a lot of people in this country who feel put upon or oppressed, whether or not they're women or immigrants. I mean, there are people in this country who fear that when they walk out, they won't get access to the fundamental rights of due process that are due to everyone. It doesn't even say legal citizen. It says literally due to everyone.
And so the fear that we're talking about is not just electoral consequences, not just Ed Martin, but it's about whether or not your husband's going to come home because you're somebody brown --
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there because we have a whole other conversation on that very topic. I have to say, though, tomorrow Trump has teased a big announcement.
[22:15:01]
We're learning now that it will involve the U.K. It'll be an announcement on trade. So, that's coming up.
AIDALA: I thought we were buying the U.K.
PHILLIP: Coming up next, breaking news tonight, a judge is warning the Trump administration to stand down on possible plans to send migrants to another country in conflict. Will this turn into a standoff?
Plus, some of the Les Mis cast members are boycotting Trump's appearance at the Kennedy Center now that he's taken over the arts in Washington. Is this petty or powerful? We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
First, it was El Salvador. Now, the Trump administration is eyeing Libya as its next deportation destination. A source tell CNN the White House is moving forward with its plan to send a group of undocumented immigrants to the North African nation, that is notorious for its harsh treatment of migrants. A State Department report on human rights found individuals including refugees, asylum seekers, and other migrants held in Libyan detention centers faced inhumane conditions, torture, and even death.
Libya has denied it discussed deportations with the White House, and when asked about it today, President Trump said he's in the dark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are your administration sending migrants to Libya?
TRUMP: I don't know. You'll have to ask Homeland Security, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Trump is saying he doesn't know anything about it, but this has gone all the way to the courts and the judge tonight, Judge Brian Murphy, said this, the Department of Homeland Security may not evade this injunction by ceding control over non-citizens or the enforcement of its immigration responsibilities to any other agency, including the Defense Department. The alleged imminent removals would clearly violate the court's order.
That is a warning not to do this, but there is, according to flight records, a plane, a military plane waiting with flight plans to leave there?
AIDALA: Well, as the lawyer at the table, I don't know if anyone else is a lawyer. Okay, I'm sorry.
SELLERS: I am.
AIDALA: Okay. I apologize. Well, the lawyer who's -- there's the lawyer who's in middle of a trial right now who came court a couple hours ago. I mean, I hope that the executive branch always abides by the judiciary holdings and follows them through the chain of command of appellate process. Ecause if that fails, then we're in tremendous trouble.
NAVARRO: But it's already -- they haven't done so. There was a unanimous decision by the Supreme Court telling this executive to make every effort to bring Kilmar Abrego Garcia back, and they have not done so. So, it's like, you know, we are seeing -- you're talking about dictatorship. In dictatorships, there's no rule of law.
And in this country, the problem that we are seeing is the gap that we have in our system where, theoretically, they may be coequal, but the judicial branch has no enforcement arm.
And so John Roberts and what army is going to stop Donald Trump from sending --
AIDALA: Well, that's the problem, there is none.
NAVARRO: they already defied it with the plane they, you know, there was a court order telling them not to send that plane to El Salvador, and they did so.
AIDALA: And, listen, that's a big problem. And our country is founded on the trust between the three branches of government. And I think John Roberts spoke Buffalo -- PHILLIP: Yes, he did tonight. Let me -- I'll read it since you're bringing it up. He says the judiciary -- he says the -- oh, we actually have the clip, so let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: In our Constitution, judges and the judiciary is a coequal branch of government separate from the others with the authority to interpret the Constitution as law and strike down obviously acts of Congress or acts of the president. And that innovation doesn't work if it's not -- the judiciary is not independent. Its job is to obviously decide cases, but in the course of that, check the excesses of Congress or the executive, and that does require degree of independence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now that is a direct message to this administration that has pretty explicitly said they don't believe that that is true, that the courts have a role in interpreting the law, or that there are limits to whether they could check the executive on various things. He's saying, no, that's not how it works.
ALLISON: It's not. I mean, this is -- I don't want to be hyperbolic right now, but I'm glad to hear you say that it is not okay when the three branches of government don't operate and that one doesn't respect the other. That is the fundamental principle of our democracy, of our institutions. And if we don't have that, then we are not living in the America that so many of us know and love.
And so what will happen if -- I don't know what the case will be or what the action will be, but this administration is testing the bounds of our institutions on purpose, and it will take the people, in most authoritarian countries, it's people that have to stand up to the leader that is elected and say, not on our watch.
And those people are often sometimes people who have selected to put that person in power and often people who have not selected to put them. They find a coalition.
BORELLI: To Ashley's point leaving the legal aside, because I do believe in the rule of law and I believe that the administration should respect what the judges say, but talking about the people, you know, every time someone, whether it's Ana or someone else, mentions Kilmar Abrego Garcia, another Republican ballot, you know, voter registration gets dropped in the mailbox.
And that's why you had people like Hakeem Jeffries said, guys, no more El Salvador.
[22:25:00]
Don't go to El Salvador. Why did he say that? Not because he wanted to, but because the people are not with the Democratic Party on this issue.
PHILLIP: He has denied saying that.
BORELLI: But we're going on this story on an unnamed source to see --
PHILLIP: No, I'm saying Hakeem Jeffries has denied that he said that. But but let me ask you a question about the Libya part.
NAVARRO: But I'm sorry, let me respond though. Whether it's politically expedient or not, I am going to continue mentioning the gay Venezuelan makeup artist who was sent there with no ties to gangs and no criminal records. Because you see, for me, it's about right and wrong, and I refuse to forget those people who, for no reason, have been sent to a hellhole with no due process in El Salvador.
So, that to me is unacceptable, as an American and my people, my community, the Latino community is being racially profiled. I have a national platform and I will be damned if I don't use it to continue repeating --
PHILLIP: This is exactly why I was going to ask, why is the administration wanting to take people from Venezuela, from anywhere in the world and send them to places where they could face death? Even if their crime is coming to the country illegally --
SELLERS: That's not a crime, by the way.
PHILLIP: If they crossed the border illegally, it is a type of crime. But even if they did that, is that really something that we're doing in this country, sending them to a prison where the only way out is in a coffin, according to the El Salvadorans?
BORELLI: They had an option not to come in the first place. They had an option to self-deport. I'm sorry, but I'm speaking for a lot of -- I'm telling you, I'm speaking to a lot of Americans --
PHILLIP: That the penalty for that could be death?
BORELLI: After people who aren't supposed to be here, are removed from the country, it's not my problem, right? The due process was supposed to happen before they came here, not after. So, yes, I'm speaking for a lot of Americans.
SELLERS: That doesn't make sense. That's --
BORELLI: You should apply for citizenship, apply for a visa, go to the right channels. That's how you travel to -- you can go out elsewhere.
SELLERS: Can we just back up for one second? What you're saying right now, regardless of how many Americans you speak for, is literally the most undemocratic, most un-American thing I think I've heard on national T.V. in a very long period of time, and let me explain why. Because when you come to this country, you have certain rights even if you're here illegally. It's not a crime. In fact the Supreme Court has stated that being here illegally is not a crime.
Do we want to make sure that people are here legally? Do we want to make sure that they're not committing crimes? The answer is yes. I'm not going to die on that hill and just let all the gates open and let everybody in. But people deserve due process.
And if you're sending people to Libya who have no connection to Libya at all, if you're sending people to El Salvador who have no connection to El Salvador without due process --
AIDALA: If it's not a crime, what is it, an administrative violation? Why is he coming here and --
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: They're not going to stay in my house.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: One at time, please.
BORELLI: That's all we want in the immigration system.
ALLISON: I don't think that there's a disagreement in that, that we need to have rules and laws in our immigration policy.
BORELLI: Why didn't we for four years?
ALLISON: Well, what?
BORELLI: Why didn't we for four years? Where was the conversation
ALLISON: There were?
(CROSSTALKS)
ALLISON: There was this conversation. I guess my question was like, where's the humanity? These are human beings at the end of the day.
AIDALA: Well, didn't they change policy now?
ALLISON: But you know what? Even the worst of the worst people, the murderers of the world, they deserve due process and they deserve their sentence. But these people, the makeup artist that Ana was talking about, sent the person to a prison to die?
SELLERS: Can I ask like a political question?
NAVARRO: Because he had a tattoo that said mom and a tattoo that said dad.
SELLERS: Like a political question just has like humanity and like just bipartisanship. Why not? Because I think everybody would agree around the table. Why not bring Abrego back and put him through a system and deport him again?
BORELLI: He had a valid deportation work.
SELLERS: What does that -- BORELLI: But, yes, by all means, you should speak to the Democratic Party. If you want to bring Garcia back, this should be the official platform of the Democratic Party.
SELLERS: That's not what I just.
BORELLI: But I'm hearing you. Most Americans want this guy --
NAVARRO: You know what? You're actually, you are actually wrong. Donald Trump in the most recent polls is underwater on the handling of immigration for the first time. And it's not because of the way he's handling the border. Look at CNN polls, all of the poll. He is underwater and it's because --
BORELLI: I'm sure Twitter will send it to me.
NAVARRO: No, and I'll tell you why. Because people are listening and people are hearing about these awful cases and people are seeing their kids' teachers get deported and their kids' soccer coaches get deported, and the person who takes care of their elderly parent. And they're seeing U.S. citizens who have been detained without due process.
(CROSSTALKS)
AIDALA: And I'm surrounded with people who are not here properly. Maybe I won't say illegally. I just learned something.
SELLERS: Illegal is the word. It's not a crime.
AIDALA: Okay. So I don't know one person who's been anywhere in my whole universe, and I'm pretty -- I got a pretty big universe in Brooklyn and Manhattan who have been pulled out of their house and been deported.
[22:30:06]
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Now, now, Manhattan and Brooklyn may be different than other parts of the world.
(CROSSTALK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Hold on, guys. Hold on, guys. Yeah. And you -- I mean, you do know that it is happening. Yeah.
AIDALA: Yeah, well, I just don't know --
(CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Correct me if I'm wrong. Did they just come down with a policy where if you self-deport, you're getting $1000 to leave the country, or did I --
JOE BORELLI, MANAGING DIRECTOR, CHARTWELL STRATEGY: Let me get the right to come back if you could apply.
PHILLIP: That is one of the things that they -- that they're --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Can we all agree that that's a good idea?
AIDALA: That's a good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We got to leave -- we got to leave the conversation there.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's not -- that's not --
AIDALA: It's a terrible idea to say, look. Self-report --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Comprehensive immigration reform is a good idea.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A pathway to citizenship. Fixing a broken asylum system.
BORELLI: You had the chance.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: You had -- you had the Houses of Congress and the President. Four years.
SELLERS: Joe. Guess what you got? Guess what you got right now?
ALLISON: All of it.
SELLERS: All of it.
ALLISON: Do it.
SELLERS: Fix it. Comprehensive immigration reform.
ALLISON: Yes, don't say --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: The last time we had it, we ran Marco Rubio out.
BORELLI: I still think removing people and making them come back under an application process is fixing it.
SELLERS: You like paying illegal immigrants? You want to pay illegal immigrants my hard-earned taxes? You want to give them $1000?
BORELLI: No.
SELLERS: That's what you're running on right now. You just had us a good policy point.
BORELLI: A thousand dollars in cash --
SELLERS: You're going to -- you're going to give --
BORELLI: -- is far less than the amount of money it would cost to -- to give them health care.
SELLERS: Joe's next opponent, I'll let you take him.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: Cut the -- cut the --
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there. Coming up next, Joe Biden is breaking his silence now on Trump's second term and the White House responds to this by suggesting his interviews are elder abuse. But do liberals themselves want to hear from the former president?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:15]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Joe Biden reemerges. In his first TV interview since leaving office, Biden defended his decision to stay in the presidential race after that disastrous debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK ROBINSON, BBC TODAY PRESENTER: Should you have withdrawn earlier, given someone else a bigger chance?
JOE BIDEN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I -- I don't -- I don't think it would have mattered. We left at a time when we were, we had a good candidate. She was fully funded. And what happened was, I had become, what -- what we had set out to do, no one thought we could do. And become so successful on our agenda. It was hard to say, no, I'm going to stop now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Biden will appear on "The View" tomorrow. It's something of a media tour as a series --
NAVARRO: 11:00 A.M. Eastern --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- a series of books have raised questions about his fitness for office. Ana Navarro will be there. Ana, are you going to ask him why he stayed? And also, specifically, I mean, he said today, or in this interview, I should say, that he was so successful, it was hard to walk away. That sounds like a lot of hubris.
NAVARRO: Look, I have not met a single, elected official for whom it's easy to walk away. That's why we have some walking mummies in the Senate still. Look, I think he -- I think he needs to answer the question. Should he have resigned earlier? Should he have run at all?
I think the reason he is doing this is because there's books that are coming out that are basically arguing that he was practically brain dead and that there was a massive cover up by his administration. And I think he wants to get ahead of it and respond and put out his version before that -- that happens
I think there's very relevant questions that should be asked. People keep wanting to relitigate and talk about that. And so, I think he deserves a chance to give his version of what happened.
SELLERS: One of the things that he did say is true is that I kind of came to that realization after watching the results come in that I'm not sure any Democrat was going to beat Donald Trump. It's something that -- it's something that we were able to reckon with after the election, but the reason being the economy, the headwinds, incumbency, those things were just pushing against Democrats in a way, that it would have been very difficult for Kamala Harris or Shapiro or Stein or anything.
PHILLIP: Don't you think that somebody who did not have the -- the baggage of Joe Biden would have had a better shot?
SELLERS: I -- I -- listen. I don't --
PHILLIP: I mean, there -- look. I think it's easy to say, well, nobody could have done it, but he also didn't let her distance herself from him. He didn't do -- he didn't let her do it.
ALLISON: I think a couple things.
PHILLIP: He didn't do -- he didn't let her do it.
ALLISON: One, I agree with Ana that he wants to probably get ahead of this, and it's better to do it now than in two years when we're actually running a Democratic primary. Let's talk about it, let's get it done, give the people the answers, and then we're moving on as a party. We're not forgetting Joe Biden, but we need denial then empower our new leaders.
I think -- I do agree with you, Bakari, that it was going to be hard for Democrats to win. The chances would have been substantially better if we would have had a primary after the midterms of 2022 and it would have been an open field. It would not have been a default to the vice president because she was a sitting vice president because we had a -- a -- everyone says we don't have a bench.
We have a lot of people that actually would have thrown their hats in the race. I also think that the vice president in those 100 days, it was almost an impossible task, and the fact that she did not distance herself when people were telling Democrats that they were experiencing pain and we were saying, look at the facts, which is what this administration is doing right now.
But I digress, that she -- when she didn't distance herself, people were like, then then I don't want any more of it. And I think those three things all put together is why we're all sitting at this table with Donald Trump as our president.
[22:40:04]
AIDALA: The only thing -- I agree with you, though. Whoever the Democrat was, they're -- you're going to be painted in the Joe Biden way, and we just talked about migrants. I think behind -- behind the economy, polling wise, that was the number two issue nationally. And Trump, I mean, come on. He was the poster boy for that and -- and, you know, and it look, he's carrying through.
You could talk about, look what he's doing now and I don't disagree about some of it is just against human nature and I -- I don't agree with it. But the people who voted for him, that was their number two thing right behind the economy, so he's given the people who voted him what they want, which is get these people out of the country.
PHILLIP: Joe?
BORELLI: Look, I -- I think at some point in the distant future, Joe Biden will join the -- the panoply of American presidents that we have this nostalgic view about. But as long as people, who are still voting, who were alive during the president, he's going to be remembered for the four i's -- illegal immigration, inflation and incompetence. And I think it's a problem for the Democratic Party.
ALLISON: There was --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: Illegal immigration.
ALLISON: Oh, a double -- a double I.
BORELLI: I think you're right, though, in the timing.
ALLISON: Yeah.
BORELLI: You guys, the Democrats, have to have this conversation now and come to the reckoning about why Joe Biden lost or whether Kamala was the right choice. All that stuff has to happen before the midterms.
ALLISON: I agree.
BORELLI: Because if you're still struggling with those questions, you can't put a fresh face on the congressional candidates or whoever you want to run.
SELLERS: Can I say that Joe Biden coming out and whatever happens tomorrow, it's going to be a great interview by amazing ladies on the show at "The View" tomorrow. I hope everybody watches it. I hope people watch Joe Biden. But I think Joe Biden --
NAVARRO: And I hope the pope doesn't get elected while in the -- while in the middle of that interview. SELLERS: Well, that was very selfish. But what I will say is that,
look, I think that the American political class has gotten too old. And I think that there are a lot of young people who are clamoring to be a part of the process that don't have space or opportunity because we do have this realm of leadership that has been in office for 30, 40 years.
And it -- it's so emblematic and reminds me of the black church who does, you know, you don't have a succession plan. You have your pastor who's been there 60 years, and then when he fall out, everybody look around, the church is disheveled. They came raising no money.
ALLISON: Money.
SELLERS: Right?
ALLISON: Nobody's giving offering.
SELLERS: And people stop coming.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: They stop coming on Sunday --
NAVARRO: You guys go to the same church.
ALLISON: No.
SELLERS: No. But I'm just saying, I mean, you see it -- you see it in a lot of --
NAVARRO: It happens over here.
SELLERS: -- you see it in a lot of our elected officials on all levels in the house and the Senate in particular. I'm not saying we need term limits. I think that's insane because we have term limits every two and four years. But they're -- people should just retire.
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: Yes, and I think people need to hang it up.
ALLISON: Have a softer landing.
SELLERS: Have a softer landing.
PHILLIP: Yeah. This idea that, oh, I can't walk away.
SELLERS: Can we all agree on that, maybe?
AIDALA: No. I'm just hearing about term limits. I think I'd like -- I understand it's hard-- too hard for them to walk away. And he's term limited out, but he worked away early, but I think term limits in New York City have worked in the city counts.
NAVARRO: Well, I'm -- I'm for term limits on a president. PHILLIP: All right. We -- we do have those.
AIDALA: We have those.
NAVARRO: Yeah. Ask Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: Some actors say that they are not going to perform for President Trump at the Kennedy Center next month. Is it petty or powerful? We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:49]
PHILLIP: Tonight, a showtime snub. Several cast members of "Les Mis" are skipping their upcoming performance at the Kennedy Center. Why? Well, because President Trump is going to be there. It's just the latest example of the tensions between the White House and the performing arts center as Trump continues his aggressive push to reshape it.
In a statement to CNN, the Kennedy Center's interim president for the arts says it will no longer fund intolerance, and that, quote, "Any performer who isn't professional enough to perform for all patrons of all backgrounds regardless of political affiliation won't be welcome." In fact, we think it would be important to out those vapid and intolerant artists to ensure producers know who they shouldn't hire. Well --
AIDALA: I love "Les Mis". It's my favorite, favorite, favorite show. And if they - some list just came out and it's still the number one show and "Phantom", I believe, is number two. Look, when they're performing in the audience, right, they don't know who-- who's -- who they're performing for. I just think when you're a -- an artist, when you're a thespian, you have an obligation and the show must go on. No matter who's sitting there, no matter who you're performing for, the show must go on.
Ana, I'm sure if you had the President of The United States sitting in your studio audience, you wouldn't say, oh, I'm not -- I'm not doing the show. You got to do the show. Millions of people are waiting to see you.
NAVARRO: I --
AIDALA: I'm not being a guest on your show. I'm just saying if he was in the audience watching.
NAVARRO: Oh, I have things to say. But, but, you know, frankly, I almost wish that these people would, would go on and perform and then take the chance to do what that pastor from the National Cathedral did and -- at the prayer service and just berate him or break into a -- a rap song about fighting terror.
PHILLIP: A rap song.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: But I just find -- there's a great deal of irony when in Rick Grenell's and, hypocrisy, irony, irony is not the word because Republicans, you guys have run on this really weird. You've kind of confiscated the word woke, and now it's like we're anti-woke and we're against -- we're pro first amendment and against that and cancel culture and all of this. And then that's the first thing you want to do when people exercise the right.
BORELLI: It's their job. It's your job to perform. Shut up and sing.
[22:50:00]
Get on the stage. This is what you're paid to do.
ALLISON: OK.
BORELLI: Stop being so self-aware.
SELLERS: We know who's never running for office here.
BORELLI: They're not a great scene. It is a great scene in "Les Mis" where -- where, like, they put the barricades up and they're over the government.
SELLERS: I've seen "Les Mis". It's a great show. Yeah. It's life- changing.
BORELLI: Best song is in that stage. This is the head movie that's playing in these people's mind.
SELLERS: Yeah.
BORELLI: They think they're doing something as grand as that and they're just being self-absorbed, jerk actors.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think Joe makes a decent point.
SELLERS: The shut up and sing?
PHILLIIP: No, no. That, that, why not just perform? It doesn't -- it really doesn't matter.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: It could be Trump. It could be any --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: In any audience, hold on. In any audience, right? There are probably going to be MAGA supporters. It just happens to be Donald Trump in this instance.
ALLISON: Yes, but MAGA supporter and Donald Trump are not the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, why not, just perform for him just like everybody else?
ALLISON: And I think, so for, okay. We live in America. If they don't want to perform, they don't have to perform. And then there's consequences to those actions, and then they get fired. Wait a minute. But then, but here's the thing.
The fact that they say, well, we should put a list out and they -- those people's careers will skyrocket if they find out that they took a stand against Donald Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: The whole thing about shut up and dribble -- not dribble, shut up and sing or why don't they just perform, that's like February first of 1960 at the World Wars lunch counter. Why are they sitting there? Why don't they just go eat somewhere else? Why -- why is Rosa Parks on that side of the bus?
AIDALA: No. No. That's not the same.
SELLERS: No. No. You know what it is? It is.
AIDALA: It's the same analogy. It's just the same analogy. Donald Trump goes to the Knicks game tonight. Should the Knicks play is the way to play it?
SELLERS: It's called civil disobedience.
ALLISON: Yes.
SELLERS: And the fact is these people and yes, it's not as clear cut as -- as segregation or black versus white or different water fountains. It's not that clear cut. But they are -- they are protesting the lack of a fact to due process. They are protesting the fact that he's back at the Kennedy Center.
PHILLIP: Can we talk us for a second about this intolerance issue? Because that statement talked about intolerance being unacceptable at the Kennedy Center. But here is President Trump, "No more drag shows or other anti-American propaganda." If this were really about tolerance --
ALLISON: It's not.
PHILLLIP: -- or intolerance, why is it that Trump is trying to dictate what can and cannot play?
ALLISON: It's not. The inconsistency, it is that there is a type, there is a way that Donald Trump wants America to look, to feel, to be experienced by people. And I believe, I don't know these folks, but I would have bet that they're -- that vision, the people who are trying to say I'm going to do this civil disobedience don't feel like they fit in it. And so, as their free - their ability of -- the ability to free speech to protest because of the democracy, that's what they're doing because --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: And I tell you, yeah, these -- these are the same people that argue January 6th was a protest, a peaceful protest, and -- and they write to express themselves.
PHILLIP: Coming up next, the panel is going to give us their night caps in honor of the "Conclave" movie playing out in real life. What movie gave you the best advice?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:57:39]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the "NewsNight" cap, "Conclave" edition, the movie that is. It was black smoke, no new pope on the first day of the papal conclave. "Politico's" E.U. -- report says that some of the cardinals are at the conclave preparing for this historic occasion by actually watching the fictional movie. You each have 30 seconds to tell us what TV show or movie gave you the best advice of your life.
BORELLI: I got two. First one is "Bronx Tale". You know, it's a great movie. Great advice. The worst thing in life is wasted talent. Then there's the -- the sunny test and my wife passed it. She opened the car door when I went around the back. If you haven't seen the movie, watch it.
Also, A Christmas Carol. I have never ever thought about licking a frozen telephone pole.
SELLERS: "A Christmas Story".
BORELLI: "A Christmas Story" -- ever again. Never licked a frozen telephone pole.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's a good lesson.
SELLERS: Me? So I was going to go with "Malcolm X" just because it was the first time I spent three hours in a movie theater. Spike Lee did a great job. Denzel, everybody. But, "Centers". "Centers" is amazing.
Those people who haven't seen it, I don't care if you like horror or not. Ryan Coogler did a great job. He really doesn't miss, and it just taught you to protect your space. And you shouldn't let everybody in your space or in your house.
PHILLIP: Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, I am currently obsessed with the remake of the four seasons on Netflix with Tina Fey and Colman Domingo. And the lesson I got from it is under no circumstance should I ever - ever go to a tropical eco resort to sleep in a tent during hurricane season. Never.
PHILLIP: Tropical eco resorts are --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I should go to a Four Seasons in a tropical place.
PHILLIP: Yes, yes. Having done eco resorts, they can be a little bit --
ALLISON: Hit or miss. Hit or miss.
PHILLIP: Touch and go.
NAVARRO: You don't strike me as the eco resort.
PHILLIP: I am not.
ALLISON: I have and they are hit or miss. Okay. Mine is "Legally Blonde". True story. I got dumped in law school. The guy ended up dating another girl, devastated. Thought I was going to drop out.
AIDALA: Absolutely. Let's just say, I won. I won because it was the best thing I never had.
NAVARRO: What's he doing now?
ALLISON: I don't know. We didn't even walk across the stage when we graduated.
SELLERS: Oh.
NAVARRO: We're going to go look him up on Facebook.
PHILLIP: Okay.
AIDALA: So for me, it's a -- it's a professional movie more than a live movie. "A Time to Kill", which was -- had Samuel L. Jackson and Matthew McConaughey and Samuel Jackson's daughter gets raped and he kills the rapist and he's up against it.
[23:00:02]
And Matthew McConaughey reaches deep down and represents Samuel Jackson in court and it's one of the greatest summations in theatrical history. And I sometimes watch it to motivate myself before I go into a courtroom and give a final summation.
PHILLIP: There you go. Criminal defense attorney right there at the table.
NAVARRO: And due process.
PHILLIP: Yeah, the -- well, exactly.
NAVARRO: All about due process. ALLISON: Full circle.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very much, and thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram or TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
