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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Pentagon Sends 700 Marines to L.A. in Protest Escalation; Police and Protesters Clash in Texas, Troops on Ground in L.A.; LAPD on Tactical Alert as Protesters Take to Streets. CNN Follows Developments on Los Angeles Protests. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 09, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Abby Philip in New York.
A fourth night of protest is unfolding right now in Los Angeles as President Trump deploys the U.S. military on American soil. It is extraordinary, an extraordinary show of his executive power triggered by days of unrest there over his administration's immigration raids. Trump has now ordered another 2,000 National Guard troops to L.A. They'll join the 2,000 already there. 700 Marines are also on the way as well.
Los Angeles has declared a tactical alert. As the sun is now setting in that city, protesters, as you can see there remain in the streets. In just the last few moments, another tense standoff has erupted in Dallas, Texas, where police and protesters are getting physical. We just saw members of that crowd being wrestled to the ground.
We're going to start first though with Erin Burnett, she on the ground in Los Angeles. Erin, can you tell us what is happening around you as you've been on the air over the last few hours? The police seem to have been moving protesters, moving you all. Where are you now and what is happening around you?
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: So, now we're several blocks, Abby, away from where it all began, which is the Federal Detention Center, or the federal building, which had been on the front completely surrounded by National Guard. And then ever since then, they have been moving the crowd.
The crowd is smaller than it was but there are still a lot of people, 700 people where we are. And from some of the explosions or flash bangs that we've been able to see in the distance, Abby, there are other pockets like the one that we are in. I mean, I describe it as a pocket. What I mean is that there's this line of law enforcement, as you can see, and we've had some very tense moments firing of rubber bullets, foam canisters, those batons right now pointed out, we have seen them, you know, used to point and prod people in the back. And they're moving people right now. We can see a line of officers moving over to the side and what they will do is then go block. They keep this group of people and then you see people start to run here. I don't know if you can see, Abby, some of the running. Not next to us, but often the distance. And so what it is is they basically create, coordinate off. They create a three-sided line of law enforcement, and then they force the crowd to go that direction. So, that's what they've done with this crowd. And that all started in front of the detention center where you had a few thousand people and they started to segment it off and move it.
I would say right now, obviously, it's dusk. It's not yet dark. There are fewer people than they were, but -- and now they're moving again, which is, to give you a feel, they were standing for a few minutes. In that case, actually, probably about ten minutes, Abby, they were just standing. And now they're moving and pushing people. When people really get in their face and push, we have seen them fire the rubber bullets, fire the pepper -- sorry, it's okay. And you just see this line proceed down as we continue to move away.
Now, we're also, Abby, in the middle of traffic, there are cars that are here. And, Orlando, a photojournalist is moving backwards. So, we're just sort of guiding him from the back so he doesn't bump into the cars. But you can see the cars that are here and we just continue to move back. And then they're hoping that it'll dissipate when you get to every single intersection, Abby, that it will dissipate.
We have seen the crowd. There were times they were throwing a lot of plastic bottles, Abby. At some point glass bottles actually were shattering right around where we were. That obviously can be very scary to people because the glass shatters up and that causes a bit of panic immediately. That's okay.
PHILLIP: And, Erin, can I ask you, is there an expectation -- have the police communicated any expectation that they want protesters gone by a particular hour, or are they just directing the crowd and hoping to disperse them bit by bit?
BURNETT: Abby, it's been interesting to watch their interactions with people. They will yell, go home, go home. They are generally trying not to interact with people. But there have been some specific instances where it has been impossible for them not to. And they will sit there and they will point their weapons. And again, these weapons that we're talking about, fire, foam canisters, rubber bullets, that sort of thing, pepper balls, pepper spray balls, we've seen that and then some fireworks and, you know, explosions that have actually been caused by the crowd as opposed to just flash bangs from the officers.
[22:05:02]
Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference,
PHILLIP: Erin, stand by for us.
BURNETT: Now, we're in the middle of the very big intersection. Yes.
PHILLIP: Yes. Stand by for us, Erin. We'll stay close to you this hour.
Jason Carroll is also in Los Angeles. Jason, talk to us about what's happening where you are. I am also curious about your observations of how police are interacting with protesters. Are you seeing conflict occurring or are they just simply trying to, you know, corral protesters into particular areas as this goes on?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Abby, that's exactly what we've been seeing out here. We've been steadily being been moved back block after block after block by a line of officers. Some of them you see here. In fact, just before we went on the air with you, we were a block further away towards Little Tokyo. We're now being moved back to an area of downtown Los Angeles.
We're the corner of Alameda and First Street. And just to give you a little bit more perspective, once you get to this area of downtown, it's a lot more sparsely. There not as many people who live in this section of downtown. It's mostly loft and somewhat of an industrial area. They're trying to keep us away from Little Tokyo.
And I'll tell you what we've been seeing here. It's engagement and then pull away and then push forward. We have moments of where literally there's no engagement between the police and the demonstrators who are out here. And then all of a sudden, someone throws in a firework, and that's what sets the officers off. That's what they do. That's when they begin to move in.
What we've steadily been seeing, though, since we've been out here now for several hours, is the crowd, which you can see right up here, the crowd is getting smaller and smaller and smaller with each hour.
Now, that doesn't mean just because the crowd is getting smaller, the crowd is less volatile. It just simply means that there are less people. That's what we've been saying here. And what these (INAUDIBLE) is as they're moving the line back in this direction, the crowd gets a little smaller.
But that's where we are I think you heard Erin Burnett talk about, pockets of crowds, and that's what we've been seeing here. We're in one pocket over here. Erin Burnett, I believe, is in a pocket, maybe a few blocks away. Kyung Lah, my colleague, was in another pocket of demonstrators, even further away.
But even just more perspective, we are several blocks away now from where we started at the Federal Detention Center. And just to let some of our viewers know, you know, when you see these pictures, it may look as if all of downtown Los Angeles is like this. That is not the case. We are in a pocket of an area that is somewhat contained, if you will. I don't want to mislead folks. And it leads you believe that --
PHILLIP: And, Jason, I'm going to interrupt you just for a second because I want to show -- I want to explain to people what we're seeing on the left side of your screen. It looks like some kind of altercation between law enforcement and an individual in a sort of yellow or neon sweatshirt. One man surrounded by several individuals. And this seems to be a little bit in like a parking lot, a little bit away from the crowds, in a way. So, it's not clear exactly what's going on there.
But as we've been watching the air and we've been going to you and our other reporters in the field, we have not seen a huge number of these types of arrests and incidents happening today. That is not to say that they did not happen over the last few days. But that -- what you're seeing now, this man being walked by law enforcement out of an area, it has been a somewhat unusual sight just for the last few hours of these protests occurring, at least what we've seen on the air.
Jason, I don't know if you've seen more of that happening or if you can give us some insights into when you've seen police perhaps detaining people today in these protests.
CARROLL: Of course. And when you consider what you were saying, Abby, which is actually a very good point, when you consider the amount of bottles, the amounts of debris that had been thrown at these officers, one might think, one might expect that there might be more arrests, that you might be seeing more of these arrests, types of arrests on camera that you just -- that you witnessed, but we have not seen that. We've not seen it.
But what we have seen is standing out here in a group and then someone comes up in a black hoodie and says, let's get it on, and then starts throwing rocks or projectiles at these officers. What they do at that point is they use their flash bangs to alert the crowd, to get the crowd to move back, and in some cases, getting the crowd to disperse.
[22:10:02]
But what we are not seeing, at least at this point, are the type of arrest that you've just witnessed.
Now, having said that, it doesn't mean that, you know, in the next hour, as the sun goes down, as it gets darker, as more of the folks who wanted to come out and make a statement about migrants and about federal policy, as those people start to disappear, and what you're left with is the only one to say it is a harder crowd. You know, at that point maybe we'll start to see more of those arrests.
But you're absolutely right, I haven't seen a lot of that, at least not yet. And only, to your point, it only takes one or two agitators to really set things off in these crowds, especially as it turns dark.
I want to go back to Erin Burnett, who's not too far from you, as you were just saying. Erin, we were just discussing a single arrest that we were able to see on one of our cameras. What is your sense tonight of the crowd that you are in, you're in that pocket, as you described it? Have you seen what Jason has observed, which is a lot of people walking around, protesting, maybe a handful of people amping things up. Are you also seeing that pattern occurring where you are?
BURNETT: Yes. And I will say, because we're essentially in these pockets, once you're stuck in one, unless you choose to disperse, Abby, it's pretty hard to get out. So, you know, if we just walk up a little closer here, what is just layers of people. And you'll see some of those, you know, fireworks thrown by the crowd. That, as Jason said, causes the police to get agitated and then they will start to push, which is what we're seeing right now. So, first, you're going to see a lot of protesters walk around us. And a lot of them, as you see with their hands up, you know, peaceful protest is the chant that we've heard again and again.
I'd say, Abby, there's a few people that I've started to recognize. They're always right in the front and they haven't done anything violent. They've not done anything violent, but they are agitating, right? They're happy to have an altercation if one presents itself, but there has been no violence.
So, I think Jason described it very well. We'll see how it goes as it gets dark.
PHILLIP: We will.
BURNETT: That's just a -- if you can hear it, Abby, that's a sort of, I don't know, motorcycles and people just sort of driving through to stir it up. And then you can see some of that smoke coming through, but the line is right behind us of police pushing.
PHILLIP: Before I come into -- I want to come into the studio. But before I do, Erin, just a very quick question for you. As of right now, have you seen the presence of National Guard or military in this situation on the ground in L.A.?
BURNETT: So, the answer is yes, but in a very specific setting, Abby, outside the federal building, right along that building. And when, I mean right along, I mean, right on the front, on the steps. They didn't come further than the steps. And then when they moved, they moved right along the side of the building. That's where we saw the National Guard, the California National Guard that, of course, were deployed in spite of the wishes of the Governor of California. And he set up to 4,000 of them have been deployed by the president.
That's the only place we saw federal -- those federal National Guard. All the officers that you see here on the front of this line then that I have seen on every corner, and now we've interacted with many groups of them, have been from California Highway Patrol, LAPD, L.A. Metro, all of them from California and state police. So -- and city police. So, we have not seen National Guard on the actual streets. We have not seen those U.S. Marines on the streets. And I think that's just an important thing to note as we're watching this. That has not yet happened.
PHILLIP: Erin Burnett, we appreciate you continuing to be our eyes and ears on the ground. We'll stay close with you.
I want to bring it into the room here. John Miller is at the table, along with our analysts and guests. John, the biggest concern, I think, for L.A. officials, according to them, is that President Trump's decision to deploy the National Guard and send Marines to the area will only escalate the problem. Based on what you're seeing tonight, do you feel like there's still a need if there was one yesterday and on Saturday? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I mean, the LAPD has said through its Chief Jim McDonnell, through the mayor, that they have the resources to handle this. Now, they are resource-stretched. But what you saw today actually was what was lacking the other day was a unified command. You had the LAPD on the frontlines. You had them backed up by the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department guarding their flank and then the California Highway Patrol, making sure that you didn't see them take over those highways together. But all highly coordinated, as Erin has done such a good job of describing, it's being orchestrated from a central command post.
PHILLIP: And it's been notable how the discipline that's been on display tonight, because we've been watching Erin and Jason and Kyung and they've been on the street and you see protesters are in their face, they're throwing bottles, they're doing a lot of things, but there has not been a lot of reaction to that beyond just moving them around. So, that's been notable to me.
MILLER: But, I mean, they've taken their opportunities when something provocative like that or violent has happened to say, all right, we're going to move in closer. We may fire some rubber bullets, but we're going to split off the crowd. They keep trying to split the crowd into pieces.
But to get to the core of your question, as Erin also pointed out, the National Guard has just been guarding that federal building. Yesterday, they were guarding that jail. I suppose you could send them to guard the other federal building in West L.A., which could be a target of later protests. But the LAPD with the sheriff of the California Highway Patrol could do the same thing.
The real question is the National Guard's presence there become the lightning rod that has given the protests more juice, more to react to?
PHILLIP: And I think that is the question, Ben, for the Trump administration, that they clearly want to make this a moment where they talk about the enforcement of immigration laws, but is that more important than simply turning the dial down of intensity on the streets and getting these people off the streets?
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I think they understand that people's lives are at risk. I think they understand how quickly things can get out of control. I think they saw what you mentioned earlier, and that was that L.A. clearly didn't have a plan the first several days.
And having a family that's in law enforcement, dad that has been a police officer in Memphis, Tennessee, when things get bad, they can go really bad really quickly. You see this happen when there's flashpoints. And the idea that we are going to now decide, or argue or debate over who are good law enforcement and who are the ones that are antagonizing when, clearly, they're all trying to work together is total insanity, when there's people that clearly want law and order. If I have a business in L.A. tonight, I want as many law enforcement as I can have there, regardless who they are. And, by the way, this isn't unprecedented. I go back to the riots that happened in the 90s in L.A. Everyone's acting like what Trump's doing tonight is like unprecedented. No, it's not. The Marines were called in by George Bush 43.
FMR. LT. GOV. MANDELA BARNES (D-WI): The entire city of L.A. was on fire at that point.
FERGUSON: But my question, when you've seen it happened before, why wouldn't you do -- why wouldn't you make sure here never happens again?
PHILLIP: Here's a key difference. In '92 when the National Guard came and assisted with the L.A. riots, it was at the request of the governor. So, that's the main difference between then and now, is that the governor and local officials have not asked for it.
FERGUSON: And here's what I would say. We have seen people make huge mistakes and moments for political reasons. A great example of that is Katrina. I was at the White House the night that hit on August the 29th, and there was politics involved. You had a mayor that said, we don't need any help. And you had George Bush 43 was begging to declare emergency to send the National Guard. And they begged them not to put them in death trap and the Superdome.
My point is this. When you have people that only care about politics, and let's be clear, Gavin Newsom is obviously trying to have a moment here.
BARNES: Well, Donald Trump is always trying to have a moment.
FERGUSON: But Donald Trump's not running for reelection. Gavin Newsom trying to become a president.
(CROSSTALKS)
BARNES: Donald Trump has already threatened to or arrest Gavin Newsom. This is only a political moment why we can always go back to January 6th and ask why weren't the National Guard called in then, when police officers were being attacked.
FERGUSON: I can tell you why. Hold on. I can tell you why. Go back to Nancy Pelosi's own word. The president --
BARNES: No, no, no.
FERGUSON: The president --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: Hold on. I want to go on first. True or false, did they say to Nancy Pelosi that if you want to go ahead and bring in the National Guard and others, we will be more than happy to do that, and Nancy Pelosi was the one that said, no?
BARNES: The president fanned the flames -- FERGUSON: True or false.
BARNES: January 6th?
FERGUSON: Yes. Beforehand, they said, we will give you the resources before January 6th. And she said no.
BARNES: Every --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Everybody, just one second, let me just get everybody one at a time. I want John to just answer that quick question.
MILLER: The chief of the Capitol Police went to the architect of the Capitol and the sergeant-at-arms from both houses. The chief of the Capitol Police does not know who they went to. But let's assume they went to their political leadership and --
FERGUSON: And that's what she said.
MILLER: And they said they didn't want, the National Guard brought in, they wanted them on standby. The day of the riot, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are on the phone saying, can we get the National Guard?
FERGUSON: So, let me --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Ben.
FERGUSON: The point is this.
PHILLIP: Ben and Mandela, just give me one second, okay. We're going to -- so you got the answer to your question. They requested the National Guard on January 6th when the riot was occurring.
FERGUSON: So, we do it early.
PHILLIP: Ben, just give me a second. Christine?
CHRISTINE QUINN (D), FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: They were asked if they were put on standby, so when they needed them, they could come. They asked when they needed them, them being on standby makes perfect logical sense.
[22:20:02]
They then did what you do when someone's on standby. Be quiet.
FERGUSON: No, but did it work?
QUINN: No. You stop interrupting.
FERGUSON: You said that -- QUINN: Stop. They then asked for them and they didn't come, period, end of conversation. They asked in the thick of the moment. They didn't get them.
The difference here in California is the governor has not asked. That's the difference between 1992. If you want to talk about who's engaged in a political stunt, and I've criticized Gavin Newsom for being too political many times, but this political stunt is on the president, Donald Trump. Bringing in these National Guard has escalated the problem, A, B, they are not really doing anything, just escalating and adding tensions. And beyond that, it's a violation of the Tenth Amendment.
FERGUSON: Excuse me, Article 4, Section 4 doesn't require the governor. Trump can send the National Guard without the governor.
QUINN: And that is unprecedent.
FERGUSON: So, it doesn't matter. He can do it. He can do it under invasion or under --
BARNES: The president has to choose which law and order he wants to enforce. Well, if there's benefit, then law and order is not enforced.
PHILLIP: Look, I do think that this is an important -- hold on, Ben. Hold on a sec, Ben. It's an important question invasion or, you know, a rebellion, neither of those things are happening.
FERGUSON: Violence among citizens.
PHILLIP: Yes, but that's not what the statute says. An invasion or rebellion, that's not what the statute says. So, this is going to be tested. That's why California's suing. Because they are saying that there is no basis for the president to do this, just because he doesn't --
HAL LAMBERT, FOUNDER, MAGA ETF: They're suing the process. They're saying the process didn't go the right way to request from the governor to do it prior to doing it.
PHILLIP: Well, I think that the bigger issue --
LAMBERT: No, but the argument is a process and the court -- they will lose. They will lose.
PHILLIP: But it's not a process argument. There's a reason why people get very concerned when we were talking about deploying military assets domestically. John, this happens, right? It has happened in the past.
MILLER: It happens, and it has happened many times.
PHILLIP: It has happened many times using the Insurrection Act.
MILLER: But it does not often happen without the request of local authorities. PHILLIP: Exactly. But, I mean, what is the -- from a law enforcement perspective, right, they are already dealing with a very tense situation, you bring the military into it. When you have these crowds who have political grievances, they believe that this president is behaving in a way that it -- you know, they believe that Trump is defying the law, then you bring the military into the situation, I mean, what does that do to a crowd like this? I mean, this is the crux of the debate that we're having.
MILLER: So, there's two things. One, there's no doubt that the presence of the National Guard at these facilities in Los Angeles has become a lightning rod. We can debate whether that's right or wrong, but it happens to be a fact. So, then the second question is, okay, what is their function there? In other words, what is their authority? If they are pushed, do they push back? If things are thrown from this, the crowd, do they deploy gas? We saw some of that on Sunday. If somebody fires a shot, do they open fire?
How far away are we by -- and I'm speaking of about the larger United States, by matters of our own creation, are we two bad judgment calls away from Kent State, when you create this, when you could just use the same amount of law enforcement personnel, you pick, surge a group of United States Marshals to that courthouse, surge more federal protective police, or just say to the governor, keep me from sending the National Guard, send the whole California Highway Patrol, or whatever it takes in terms of mutual aid to cover those places? None of that was on the table. Part of this is probably the game of political chicken about who's in charge here and who's showing force.
PHILLIP: I want to play what the Department of Homeland Security secretary said tonight about the city of Los Angeles and about its, Mayor Karen Bass.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: She is a train wreck of a mayor now that is endorsing these kind of activities, has allowed her city to be completely devastated with crime, and now she's holding press conferences, talking about the fact that people have the right to peacefully protest and that they're a city of immigrants. Well, they're not a city of immigrants. They're a city of criminals because she has protected them for so many years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, truthfully, I'm not sure what she means by that. I mean, is she saying people in Los Angeles are criminals, all the immigrants are criminals? What is she talking about?
FERGUSON: I think she thinks that people that break into this country, and there are millions of them in California that are here illegally, are criminals.
BARNES: Illegal border crosses are at a historic low right now. It has not been as close as --
FERGUSON: Yes, because Donald Trump was elected.
[22:25:00]
BARNES: But this is why -- this is only a political --
(CROSSTALKS)
BARNES: This is a political stunt. This is a political stunt because the illegal border crossing are not --
(CROSSTALKS)
BARNES: I am saying (INAUDIBLE) low levels.
QUINN: If they're trying to deescalate, you would not trash the mayor regardless of their party. If you were trying to deescalate, if you were trying to --
FERGUSON: Did you read the mayor's statement?
QUINN: This is not tit-for-tat.
FERGUSON: The mayor's statement --
QUINN: This is not tit-for-tat.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on. Christine. What are you saying about the statement?
FERGUSON: Let's go back to what started all of this. ICE went.
QUINN: The raids.
FERGUSON: ICE went in to find the worst, criminals that they were arresting, that were accused of rape --
PHILLIP: They went to a Home Depot. Hold on, Ben. That's actually literally what precipitated this.
FERGUSON: Let me least finish the rest, okay, because I know you guys don't like --
PHILLIP: Well, I just want to make sure that you're not making general statements.
FERGUSON: I'm not. I've got their names.
PHILLIP: Well, hold on just a second. Hold on just a second.
FERGUSON: Jesus Hernandez, 26, a Mexican National, was convicted, an illegal migrant in New Mexico. And then what did he do then? Oh, he robbed some people, no big deal. I've got a whole list.
PHILLIP: What precipitated these protests?
FERGUSON: What happened on Friday?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: It was a raid that occurred --
LAMBERT: It was organized there by Marxist groups and the Democrat Party. That's what we're saying tonight, 100 percent.
BARNES: Okay.
LAMBERT: They were planning for this. This is going to happen.
(CROSSTALKS)
LAMBERT: No, time out. This is going to happen all over the country. This is scheduled to happen all over the country.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
QUINN: They're not scheduled (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: Christine and Mandela, please just hold on a second. We cannot hear when everybody's screaming.
QUINN: Okay. Sorry.
PHILLIP: Hal, finish your statement. I mean, well, first of all, let's just take a step back. Let's take a step back, okay? What we were talking about was the raids that they are protesting against, okay? The one that happened on Friday was at a Home Depot, people who -- some of whom were out undocumented out there looking for work, right? You are saying that this is organized by the Democratic Party and Marxist groups. What evidence do you have of that?
LAMBERT: Well, because you see trucks pull up with the pre-made signs that were took three hours to make dropping them off.
PHILLIP: Hal, just give me --
LAMBERT: You see bricks dropped off.
PHILLIP: I'm sorry, just give me one second, because we're going to go down to L.A., because Jason Carroll -- there you are. We're hearing some flash bangs. We're seeing them on the screen. Tell us what's happening.
CARROLL: Well, right now, we've just seen the crowd move in or try to move in on some of these police officers throwing more fireworks. And, again, whenever they do that, this is the response, officers moving in, continuing to use some of those flash bangs that we've seen before.
And I know, Abby, a little earlier, you were talking about why not seeing more arrests? Well, just a short while ago, we saw a number of officers taking out those white zip ties, which is always a sign, which is always a sign that they might be in a position now to start taking people into custody.
But, again, some of these people in the crowd started throwing some of those fireworks at the police officers. Once they do that, this is consistently what we've seen as their response. They come in full force, they move the crowd back even further and further. And, Abby, each time that happens, the crowd seems to thin out a little bit more and a little bit more.
But, again, if you look at the front line here, and I'm going to have my photographer zoom in as best he can safely, this is what we've seen throughout the afternoon and into the early evening here, some of these people at the frontline with these officers trying to agitate them as much as they can. It's through yelling, it's through screaming, it's through insults. That they can deal with. It's once they start throwing in the fireworks, that's where you see these officers come in with the type of response that you just saw.
PHILLIP: So, Jason, break this down --
CARROLL: So, not surprising, as soon as we saw the fireworks, they --
PHILLIP: Break this down for me a little bit, Jason. There's fireworks being thrown by the crowd, some individuals in the crowd. And in response to that, are the officers then firing back some kind of deterrent at the crowd?
CARROLL: That is correct. They use flash bangs. They move in the ace. They move in a unified line moving forward, telling the crowd to move back, move back, move back. And in some cases, they rush forward. And if the crowd doesn't move out of the way, you either get trampled, which we know almost did, or you move out of the way in any way that you can. And each time that happens, Abby, it seems like the crowd seems to thin out a little bit more and a little bit more.
PHILLIP: There's running -- Jason, there is running happening right now. Tell us what's going on.
CARROLL: Yes, this is the running where -- this is the running where we are right now, again, this back and forth with these officers. We're going to try to move and talk as best we can.
[22:30:02]
But, again, as soon as they get to the front, they start to -- some of these agitators in the crowd start to use some of these fireworks. And then you can see these officers here. They give them the commands, move back, move back. You can see this one officer here with that green, sort of weapon that he has in his hand right here in the front. Those are those flash -- flash grenades that they use.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Bangs.
CARROLL (voice-over): Flashbangs that they use to get the crowds to move back. And it's -- it's effective. It's effective. Because, again, I know -- I -- I'm not sure if you can tell from our camera viewpoint. We'll try to widen out as much as we can, but there were hundreds of people in the beginning when this started. And each time this happens, with each block, the crowd gets a little smaller, a little smaller, and disperses a little bit more, at least in the section where we are.
I can speak to where we are. I'm sure there's a probably another smaller section of demonstrators someplace else. But where we are at this point, just a bit south of where little Tokyo is in Downtown Los Angeles, the crowd is starting to disperse a little bit, but that doesn't mean those who are still left are not unruly.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): All right. Jason Carroll, we'll stay close with you. We're going to sneak in a quick break here. We'll be right back with more of this breaking news from Los Angeles. Jason, are you still with us? Just give me one second. Jason, tell us what just happened there. As you were going to break, I saw some action. We're going to stay with you for just another moment.
CARROLL: That's correct. As -- just as we were just talking here, you could see they were moving in. They tried to grab one of their protesters. The protester was able to pull away, but you can see them moving in and, oh.
UNKNOWN: Oh, damn (ph) it.
CARROLL: They're just shooting and shooting and -- using these flashbangs to get people to move back. So --
PHILLIP: Jason, are you in -- are you in a relatively safe place to continue to talk to us here? I just want to make sure of that.
CARROLL (on-camera): Yeah. I just I'll give you some perspective very quickly. This is where I am, right behind the camera. This is where these officers are.
(CROSSTALK)
CARROLL: -- move back. So, we are --
PHILLIP: Jason, give me one second. We're going to go to Erin Burnett. Erin Burnett.
CARROLL: -- moving away as safely as we can.
PHILLIP: Erin, tell us what's happening.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, wow. Okay. All right, Abby, so you can see here oh, you see this? All right. Face off here, a lot of rubber bullets are going off. You can see they just was a -- hold on. We're behind. Okay. We're just trying to move. These empty canisters obviously are from some of the flashbangs.
You can see, I don't know if you can see behind there. Orlando, can you see them -- the -- the police all over that one person, whether that's an arrest? Abby, I don't know if you can see that. Every once in a while, we have to literally sprint here.
PHILLIP: Yeah. We cannot see -- BURNETT (voice-over): Okay.
PHILLIP: -- the arrest happening, but we see the line of officers. So, Erin, the officers right now, they're moving people back, but they're also doing so with those -- with those flashbangs. It looks like -- tell us if it's something --
BURNETT (voice-over): Yes.
PHILLIP: -- other than that.
BURNETT: Can you see this, Abby?
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BURNETT: These are the -- these are the rubber bullets. I'm holding one, okay, that was just fired over where we were. They're firing these at people. Okay? The -- the bright blue tops. These -- that I'm sorry, I'm just trying to do this. I keep the microphone up before it gets really loud and they start firing again. These are what people in the crowd have been firing at the ground. Those caused some of the explosions. So, like, a foam thing, you can smell the explosive on it. That causes the police to immediately respond, and then they charge.
And we've seen a lot of people fall. We've -- we've actually -- our shot was down for a couple minutes here because we were running, a little bit out of breath, just because you have to get away from them. They just start running. They run, and then they start firing a lot of these.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BURNETT: And there's an arrest back there that now -- now I can't see. But when they --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen, I'm going to give you another second --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: The fact that the protester were --
PHILLIP: I'm going to give you another to catch your breath or stay with us, but I'm going to give you a second to catch your breath. John Miller, as I'm seeing dusk approaching in Los Angeles, this is often what we see in these protests. The -- the crowd is dispersing, but -- but who's left is going to become the issue for law enforcement? What do you think is happening right now?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (voice-over): Well, they've done a very good job of thinning the herd by breaking them up into multiple groups and dealing with instead of one large crowd, a couple of middle sized crowd. Now, to just a few small crowds. But one of the things is you see what's happening now which is the people who are left are engaging in these black block tactics, are the people who are clearly looking to goad some kind of viral moment, you know, with a confrontation with police, which is why they keep, pushing back instead of dispersing.
And, you know, what Erin's going through, you know, you see those projectiles, three of those fit in one canister, they fire them at the ground, they bounce up, they're meant to hit people in the legs or -- or, you know, in the lower part of the body to push them back in these things. They're not flashbangs, they're rubber bullets. Then we saw the larger one, the 40-millimeter one. These are less lethal munitions.
[22:35:00]
But this is, a use of force by the LAPD to a group that has been told -
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MILLER (voice-over): -- to disperse and refuses to and is still shooting fireworks in bottles --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP (voice-over)
MILLER (voice-over): -- police.
PHILLIP (voice-over): Let's go back to Erin. Erin -- Erin Burnett, are you still with us?
BURNETT (voice-over): All right. Yes. Abby, I can hear you. I can hear you.
PHILLIP (voice-over): There -- there is --
BURNETT (voice-over): So, Abby, we're just showing --
PHILLIP: Yes, go ahead.
BURNETT (voice-over): -- you some of the --
PHILLIP (voice-over): Yeah.
BURNETT (voice-over): I'm just showing you some of the crowd here as we're talking about a smaller and smaller crowd, but this is the crowd where we are. I'd still say it -- maybe a couple 100, a few 100. Behind us, police, and then this is the main line. This phalanx is the main line of police. And behind them, I don't, obviously, you can't probably see it from here, but there's a lot of the empty containers because there were a lot of fireworks thrown at the police.
And that is obviously frightening to them and it incenses them. That is when they charge forward, then people start running. So, when they run, then you get people who are injured just by falling down because people are scared because they're being shot. And I'll just show you again, and just be clear, shot with these -- these rubber bullets. This is what the rubber bullets look like that John was just saying.
You can see them on the back of some of their guns. Actually, I don't know. Orlando, can you zoom in on that officer right there? You see his gun, right here at the -- you can see canisters that are unfired. Abby, I don't know if you can see those, but you see those are three unfired rubber bullets right there on that.
PHILLIP: Yeah. We can see them, Erin.
BURNETT (voice-over): Weapon there.
PHILLIP (voice-over): They're loaded right on the side of --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: So, this what they look like when they're fired. That's right. That's right. And so, a lot of those are fired. Now, when that bounces, obviously, it -- it -- and it is very painful, even -- even when it hits people on a ricochet. So now, a moment of calm.
But I will tell you the thing that stands out about it the most, Abby, is that people had been standing waiting. Okay. Eventually, we're going to stand here and wait, and then they're going to push us back. Suddenly, there was a live sound, and people just start yelling and screaming and running, sprinting for their lives.
And then it's that panic, and the entire situation changes in one second. You know, our crew even got separated for a minute because we were -- it -- it just happened so fast. So, I think that's the thing to emphasize is how quickly it can change. And as it gets dark, that feeling is much more palpable than it was.
PHILLIP: All right, Erin. We're going to go back to Jason Carroll for just a moment. Jason, when we left you, you were experiencing much the same, that Erin was is in her pod. What's happening right now? It looks like another standoff between protesters and police.
CARROLL (voice-over): We won't give that away.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): I hope both of your pillows are warm as (EXPLICIT).
PHILLIP (voice-over): Jason Carroll, can you hear us?
CARROLL (voice-over): Abby, I can hear you now. We are standing here -- standing here again on this front line at Second Street right now in Alameda. And, again, we're now in and -- and it's sort of like a holding pattern, and this is how it goes back and forth. You're in a holding pattern for a period of time. Well, then you have some of those at the front line here, some of these demonstrators who are continuing to yell.
In some cases, yelling obscenities, you know, at these officers. That goes back and for a period of time, and then all of a sudden, the sun goes some sort of firecracker at the officers. That causes the response then to get us to move back. It's sort of like this pattern now that we've seen developing over a period of time over the past few hours or so.
And so, it sort of begs the question, will there be a tipping point? Will be there -- will there be a point where these officers say, okay, we've had enough. Enough of the obscenities, enough of this sort of back and forth with these demonstrators. And they take out those zip ties, which we saw them get -- get some of those zip ties out. Some of them were carrying them now. Some of them were not carrying those even just about forty minutes ago or so.
PHILLIP: Jason --
CARROLL: And I did notice that when some of those, officers started, taking out those zip ties, it caused some of these people here to disperse.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I imagine so. I mean, what did the -- can you hear what the protesters are saying? What are they saying? Give us a flavor of just the tone, the message that they're trying to send tonight. What's happening with that?
CARROLL (on-camera): Well, what I can tell you, what I can say on television, without offending is a lot of these people are screaming, first thing -- first things first. No ICE, not in Los Angeles. No National Guard, not here in California. And then you -- you do see some of those in the crowd who are of Hispanic descent seeming to try to specifically target some of the officers who are also of or maybe of Hispanic descent saying, aren't you ashamed of yourself?
This could be your aunt. This could be your cousin. This could be your mother, your father. And so you see a lot of that. And I've seen some of these demonstrators trying to have some sort of a dialogue with these officers, but try to engage them in that way. But between all that, you've got some of them --
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Not engage. Make them think.
[22:40:00]
CARROLL: Well, you just heard what this protester said here, "not engage, make them think". But you do also have some of the hardliners who are out here, as well, who are not looking to engage in that way. They're looking to engage with violence. And those are -- those are the ones that have to be weeded out by these officers, and that's what they're having to deal with.
And, again, the question becomes, when is there going to be a tipping point, right? When are they going to get to a point where they say enough of this back and forth. We need to move in and start making arrests. But for now --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
CARROLL: -- it's just back and forth that we've seen over the past --
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: It continues to be -- we're going to continue to stay with you, Jason. We'll be right back with you as soon as you continue to see things on the ground. Right now in the studio, Maria Elena Salinas is a former Univision anchor, and she is one of the most recognized Latina journalists in this country and around the world.
The voice of Hispanic media. We're lucky to have you tonight. I mean, on that note, what we were just talking to Jason about, the message in the streets and what caused this, right? So, ICE aid -- raids happen. Immigration detentions happen under Democrat and Republican administrations. But what has been different in the last few weeks and months?
MARIA ELENA SALINAS, FORMER UNIVISION NEWS ANCHOR: Well, I think not only the protest, but also the fight between President Trump and -- and Governor Newsom is sort of like diverting attention from the real issue at heart here, which is the abuse of the immigration authorities in the way that they're conducting these rates and the way that they're arresting people and the inhumanity and the illegality in which they're doing it.
Going into workplaces without warrants. Going into homes without warrants. Breaking people's windows in their -- in their cars to drag them out. Going to court houses to arrest people who are going precisely because they have an appointment with a judge in order to make their -- their -- continue their their process to legalize their status.
And I think what's different this time is that this is Los Angeles. We've seen protests all over the country. You're seeing some right now in Texas. We've seen them in New York, in New Jersey, in Massachusetts, in Pennsylvania, but not L.A. Why L.A? What they want is ICE out of our town. L.A. is -- is a city. I'm from L.A. I was born in L.A. That's where my roots are. That's where I started my career.
It is almost 50 percent Hispanic. Remember that California was part of the -- of Mexico. All of the Southwest is Mexico, so the roots are really deep in in that region. And what they're saying is no, not in our community.
Because when they're coming in, even though there's second, third, fourth, fifth generation Latinos that live there and Mexican Americans that live there, some of them might be their family members. The people that they're going after, it's personal for them because they're going after their cousin and --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Can I finish my point from earlier?
SALINAS: --with their cousin and their uncle and their parents.
PHILLIP: And how did then -- just a second -- I want to let --
(CROSSTALK)
HAL LAMBERT, TRUMP DONOR AND FUNDRAISER, FORMER DESANTIS DONOR: Can I just finish my point from earlier?
PHILLIP: Comment. Go ahead.
LAMBERT: Okay. This is all -- the big picture is this. This is about political power. Okay. And Greater Los Angeles is about four million people. Of that, 1.4, million are foreign-born, 800,000 are illegal. Eight hundred thousand 800,000 is congressional seat. About 750,000 people per congressional seat according to last census.
If you multiply that by 30 million people in the country illegally, that's over 30 congressional seats, most of which would be Democrat because they're going to be in sanctuary cities and sanctuary states. If you picture the U.S. Congress with 30 less Democrats, that's what this is about. That's why they're protesting. That's why this won't stop in Los Angeles.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can I -- just --
LAMBERT: This is 20 --
UNKNOWN: No, it's not.
LAMBERT: No, he's not. He won November by five --
PHILLIP: Guys, one second. One second.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Mandela, Hal, just one second. Let me -- let me ask a different -- let me put on the table a different scenario. Have you considered that this is also, to Maria Elena -- Elena's point about people, families that are being separated. I mean, we've seen the videos of parents being detained in front of their children. People who are showing up at their court cases with their families only to find out that suddenly their case has disappeared, and they are being disappeared.
LAMBERT: I don't think the person cares about any of that.
PHILLIP: So, no, no, no. I'm asking you, do you care about that because there is a human element to this. These are people, okay? This is -- there's politics, but these are also people, right?
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW" HOST: Let me answer. It's interesting to see how much we pick and choose. And let's start with the premise. You have nothing to worry about anywhere in America today if you are not breaking the law. If you are here legally, you can sleep well tonight. You're not going to be deported because you didn't break the law.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Let me -- let me just --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Mandela, okay. Mandela, let him finish then you can respond.
FERGUSON: The idea that we should justify violence against police or ICE because we're separating families.
[22:45:02]
I haven't -- hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just to be clear. I just want to --
FERGUSON: They are -- the rioters are --
PHILLIP: The who?
FERGUSON: The rioters.
PHILLIP: The rioters.
FERGUSON: The people that are tagging police and dropping moment.
PHILLIP: I just want to be very clear.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No one -- I just want to be very clear. No one --
FERGUSON: They are.
PHILLIP: The people watching TV are justifying violence against ICE.
FERGUSON: Here's what I will say. The idea that it's justifiable because a family is being split up, there's news in America every single day. There are children that cry when their mom or dad, who's an American citizen that breaks the law, gets arrested and goes to jail. I have watched it, and there's no riding and looting over that because we understand that we're either a country of laws or we are not a country of laws.
Every day, we send moms and dads who are American citizens of prison, and we separate them from their families. And you know why we don't feel sorry for them? Because we judge them on the law, and we say if you break the law in America, we put you in jail. And that's so, why is it different for illegal immigrants?
PHILLIP: Mandela quickly and then Maria Elena.
MANDELA BARNES (D) FORMER WISCONSIN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Donald Trump is part of some of the worst people's party. We can get them. We can get people in the party --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNES: Yes, exactly. We can choose -- if he can choose which law he wants enforced in this country --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I go back --
BARNES: -- Is that a fact? You can't say in one breath that we enforce the laws. We can't say that in one in one -- in one breath, breath we enforce the laws, but then at the same time when it's politically convenient, when there is a law being broken by somebody when it's somebody who
FERGUSON: Say it to Hunter Biden and I'll agree with you.
BARNES: I'm not here to -- I will never -- I'm never here to defend Hunter Biden.
FERGUSON: Say it to all the people that went after --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNES: -- all you want to. I'm not defending --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNES: You are okay with all the people that got pardoned.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can I just have Maria Elena -- she wants to say --
SALINAS: There are so many misconceptions about this because they keep saying -- talking about illegal aliens. First of all, I don't like to use the word illegal. It is undocumented. Coming into the country without documents is not illegal. It's not a crime.
FERGUSON: Yes, it is.
SALINAS: Excuse me. It is -- can I finish?
BARNES: There's a tourist that got arrested in New York.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: It is a misdemeanor. And --
FERGUSON: It's against the law.
SALINAS: It is a misdemeanor --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
SALINAS: - just like DUI is a misdemeanor. Just like, in these -- FERGUSON: I've been hit by a drunk driver who died. Don't tell me that's a misdemeanor when he crashed my family going a 100 miles an hour.
SALINAS: Excuse me.
FERGUSON: I'm sorry that if you want to say the DUI is somehow a misdemeanor and we should treat it like it's not -- not -- not committing a criminal act --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You said like said it's a misdemeanor like it's the same thing.
SALINAS: If it's a misdemeanor just like coming into the country.
FERGUSON: It's still breaking the law.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: There's a lot of misconceptions and one of them is that. It is a misdemeanor to come into the country illegally. If you get deported and then come back in, then it becomes a crime. But even then, if it becomes a crime, that doesn't mean that you're a rapist and that you're a murderer and that you're a drug dealer.
I think President Trump lied to the American people because when he was in his campaign, he said, we are going to deport undocumented or illegal aliens, if they want to use that word, who are criminals, who are violent criminals, who are killing our people, who are raping our women, who are -- who are bringing in the drugs. And then Tom Homan -- and then -- then, excuse me, and then Tom Homan -- Tom Homan comes and says, no, we're not. We're going to deport --just a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: We are going to deport -- we're going to deport everyone. We're going to deport everyone who does not have documents in in this country, even some who are here legally who have legal residents. So, you know, who is in charge here? Donald Trump says one thing. Homan says another thing.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, one of the reasons is that -- one of the reasons that that is happening --
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: -- come home and who is in charge, or is it President Trump who said that they were only going to deport violent criminals.
PHILLIP: It was always clear that that was never going to be the case with Trump because they were never going to get to the numbers that he promised. SALINAS: Right.
PHILLIP: He only deported violent criminals. And so what has happened is that in order to push the numbers up, they've -- they've said that they've hit 2000 arrests a day. They have to do that with the broadest possible brush. In other words, they're -- they are, in fact, now going after everyone -- and including sometimes picking up citizens --
SALINAS: Right.
SALINAS: -- who then are -- have to fight to prove that they're citizens. So, that's one of the reasons that that's happened.
CHRISTINE QUINN (D) FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: And I think that's one of the reasons why you're seeing great -- great concern. I mean, I -- what I do, in my day job, so to speak, is run a network of homeless shelters and homeless service organizations. We have seen repeatedly, ICE come to our shelters without legal warrants and try to apprehend people.
In one case, trying to apprehend a nine-year-old boy. They are behaving more than frequently in ways that are not legal and trying to pick up people who there is not evidence that they have done any illegal activity and even targeting, as I said, children. That has raised a level of concern.
That concern should never go to violence. It should never target law enforcement. Of course not. So we cannot pretend that hasn't happened. And we can't pretend that the President isn't in a box where he is never going to get to the numbers he said of less illegal activity.
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: We have to spy law enforcement.
PHILLIP: We have to squeeze in a quick break. Everyone, we will be right back with much more on what's happening in Los Angeles and with our panel here in the studio. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:53:13]
PHILLIP: Tonight, you see the live pictures there of the situation on the ground. It's been pretty touch and go for our reporters on the ground. But Maria Elena, I wanted to ask you because what she just said is one of the concerns. I mean, the authority that President Trump used to deploy the National Guard without the State of California asking for it.
And the Marines is one that actually when you read it is very broad. It doesn't specify Los Angeles. It doesn't specify California. It suggests that anywhere where there are protests -- ICE protests, they could do the same thing.
SALINAS: Right. PHILLIP: What are you seeing in the rest of the country about how all of this is playing?
SALINAS: Well, in the rest of the country, you do see protests. There are massive protests and some of them are smaller, some of them are bigger. We saw the one of the young guy who was going to his volleyball practice and -- and was detained, because he overstayed his visa when he came at six years old. So -- and then it was not just Latinos that were protesting. It was all his peers in his school that were protesting. And fortunately, he was able to get out.
But I think you are beginning to see these detentions affect people, and some of them are saying this is not what we voted for. One of them, of course, is in -- in Florida. As you know, in Florida, it's probably the only state where the majority of Latinos voted for -- for President Trump. There, you have a lot of people that came to this country running away from communist and authoritarian governments.
And just this week, the founder of Latinas for Trump, it's a -- State Senator, Ileana Garcia, is calling ICE's actions unacceptable, inhumane, and saying this is not what we voted for because they're sending back Cubans and Venezuelans knowing that there's a communist government in Cuba. And in Venezuela, there's a leftist, authoritarian government. And they're here because they're running away from that.
PHILLIP: I mean, Ben, I was reading this piece in "The Wall Street Journal" about how the tactics have shifted because of the desire to get the numbers.
[22:55:00]
But as a result, it's actually made it more dangerous for ICE officers to carry out detentions. And so as -- and that -- it's like a ball rolling down a hill. It's more dangerous for ICE. They have to do detentions in larger groups so they can do fewer detentions. It -- is this a self-defeating, strategy by the Trump administration to ramp up the tensions with these communities, in order to, I don't know, maybe have a show of force?
FERGUSON: No. I think what you're seeing is and the ICE agents that I've talked to, and I've talked to a lot of them, they're not saying that. What they're saying is, this is what happens when you allow 10, 15, 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. That was the chaos.
The number one killer of people my age in this country is fentanyl overdosing. That is a fact. If you want to protect people in this country, you're going to have to deal with the problem. And the problem is there are too many people that broke into this country illegally, and ICE are more than happy in saying thank you to the President for letting them finally do their job.
What they are concerned about and when they do get in trouble, as you mentioned, where they are scared, is when they don't have cooperation with local jurisdictions that refuse to work with ICE and their sanctuary cities. That does put their lives at risk because now you have an entire local government that's saying, we're going to turn her back to you. Good luck if you get hurt or injured.
PHILLIP: But that's -- none of that is new, and yet detentions for Trump appear to be running behind even just last year. So --
FERGUSON: You had President Trump on this issue. He is clear.
PHILLIP: I know, but what you're describing, which is that they're sanctuary cities, that's been around for a long time.
FERGUSON: Not in the way they are now.
PHILLIP: No. They're sanctuary cities that have been around for a long time.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Wait a minute.
FERGUSON: Not in the way they are now.
UNKNOWN: Wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: Wait, let me answer your question. Well, I'm 70.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
SALINAS: I'm 70, so I'm saying I'm older than all of you. So, respect here. When I started working in Los Angeles, I remember perfectly well that the police department did not cooperate with immigration. Why? Because it was very important for -- for the police department and for the sheriff department in Los Angeles to be able to have a good relationship with the community.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: Because they want to -- wait.
UNKNOWN: How did that work out for you?
SALINAS: Because they wanted to make sure that those people --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: How did that work out for you?
SLAINAS: It worked out perfectly fine.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: We have illegal migrants more than you ever had in any city in America right now.
SALINAS: It does not matter. No, that's not true.
FERGUSON: I live in Houston. Tell me a city --
SALINAS: Okay, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- L.A. -- is this -- you're telling me that L.A. at some point had--
(CROSSTALK) SALINAS: You didn't let me finish telling you what I was going to tell you.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I have to ask you one more question.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: -- To have a good relationship with those communities to make sure that if they are either victims of crimes or witnesses of crimes, they would not feel uncomfortable coming out.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't want us to get off track because, I mean, the reason you're getting you mentioned that is because you were trying to argue that the lack of cooperation is something that's related to Trump. That's not true. It's been around for a long ever.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah. But it's -- it's not been -- that is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But Ben, why then --
SALINAS: But the arrests have been worst that they've ever been.
(CROSSTALK)
SALINAS: Exactly. That's the worst that it's ever been.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Go ahead.
QUINN: There are not more sanctuary cities now than there were before. That is not --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: But you're saying that things are worse for ICE because there's more sanctuary city and sanctuary city activities. (CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You didn't hear me.
QUINN: That's not true. I did hear you.
FERGUSON: I'm going to say it again. I'm going to say it again to be clear.
QUINN: I don't need you to say it again.
FERGUSON: I'm going to say it again to be clear. I said that the sanctuary cities now are bigger than they've ever been with illegal immigrants.
QUINN: That's not true.
FERGUSON: So, L.A.'s had more illegals than they've had in 2025.
QUINN: But there are not more sanctuary cities. So, they're not more sanctuary cities.
FERGUSON: In Houston, you're telling me there are less of the people in '25 than there were in 2020
PHILLIP: Let me just clarify because I don't want us to get-- we're --we're this is, like, a silly thing.
QUINN: It is.
PHILLIP: Are you saying that there are just more people and that's why this is a bigger problem?
FERGUSON: I'm saying that when you have a country that's been flooded with illegal immigrants to the tune of 15 or 20 million --
QUINN: But that's not true.
FERGUSON: -- it is a bigger issue now than it's ever been.
PHILLIP: What is a bigger -- what is a bigger issue?
QUINN: Yeah.
FERGUSON: For law enforcement to get it under control because --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNES: -- law enforcement in Los Angeles. Eight hundred.
PHILLIP: So, by this logic, let me, hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: How larger than the entire national -- PHILLIP: Hold on a second. By -- by this logic, okay? I just want us to, like, stay on track because you're saying there are so many illegal immigrants in this country that it's a huge problem, which it is a problem. But -- but by that same token, the strategies of the Trump administration is using is not producing more arrests and detentions than previous administrations. So if it's, you know, 10 times the problem today than it was then --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: How do you explain that?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Here's how you explain it. You're saying Biden deported more. That's at the border. They were deporting people right when they came across and got numbers up. It was a fake number is what it was.
PHILLIP: It's not a fake number, okay?
FERGUSON: They should have shut the border down. They weren't deporting people from the interior. This is an interior deposition they were taking --
PHILLIP: They were deporting people from -- hold on.
UNKNOWN: And a father certainly was.
FERGUSON: No, he wasn't.
[23:00:00]
PHILLIP: Yes, he was. They were deporting people from the interior to the point where I know you remember this.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: It was a huge political problem from Barack Obama.
UNKNOWN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: So, look. Listen.
UNKNOWN: Not for Obama.
PHILLIP: I think the question that I'm asking you all is about, look. I understand Republicans voted for deportations. That is -- that is on the table. But the question is about tactics and strategy and whether they're effective or whether they're counterproductive.
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
PHILLIP: And I think that's where we are as a country right now.
UNKNOWN: And here's what I'm saying, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And we go to go.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: This is what I'm saying about causing a scene, Donald Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, guys. We're at the top -- we're at the top of the hour. Everyone, thank you very much. CNN special coverage continues right now with Laura Coates.
