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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
House Republicans Blast Trump's Bill; House GOP Scrambles For Votes As Trump's Bill Advances; Trump Says He'll Look At Deporting Musk As Feud Reignites; U.S. Citizens Included In Deportation List; Mamdani Says No To ICE Raids In New York; France Banned Smoking. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 01, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, with Donald Trump's mega bill one step closer to becoming law, he and Republicans are confronted about who it'll cost.
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): There are Americans that are not going to be advantaged by this bill.
PHILLIP: Plus the self-proclaimed free speech president looks to punish those who dared to exercise it, including his famous ex.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: DOGE is the monster that might have to go back and eat Elon.
PHILLIP: Also, look over here, there anywhere. The President tries distraction techniques with cages, crocs, and a threat to deport us citizens.
TRUMP: We ought to get them the hell out of here too.
PHILLIP: And the New York Socialist candidate hits back after Trump's attack.
TRUMP: We don't need a communist in this country.
PHILLIP: Live at the table. Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, Christine Quinn, Pete Seat and Sheelah Kolhatkar.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, a new revolt. Tonight, Donald Trump faces more Republican backlash to his bill after the Senate advanced it with a narrow vote. House Republicans call the Senate's version a shit show, a tragedy, a travesty, and a nonstarter. Now, remember, the party can only afford to lose three, three votes in the house. But even some of the senators who voted for the bill don't like it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURKOWSKI: My hope is that the house is going to look at this and recognize that we are not there yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That explanation from Lisa Murkowski, among other comments that we will get to in just a moment, have Democrats fuming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): I mean, my question to her is, if you really believe that, then why the hell did you vote for this bill?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: At the center of the criticism are the millions slated to lose Medicaid coverage because of this bill. But when confronted with that and the question, the president didn't have much of a defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: And just to be clear on the Medicaid cuts, you've promised not to cut Medicaid, said this is all just targeting waste, fraud, and abuse. Are you saying that the estimated 11.8 million people who could lose their health coverage, that is all waste, fraud and abuse?
TRUMP: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's going to be a very much smaller number than that, and that number will be waste, fraud, and abuse.
REPORTER: What number is that? What analysis are you seeing?
TRUMP: I'm not seeing a number, but I know it's much less than the number you gave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, my simple question, Pete, is why can't the president actually say what's in the bill and what he thinks is going to happen as a result of this bill?
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, we're basing a lot on the assumptions and modeling of the CBO. And they are about as reliable as meteorologists.
PHILLIP: They're pretty accurate. We --
SEAT: No, but they're not. I know Scott has said this. They're not infallible. They make mistakes. PHILLIP: I know, but you mentioned this yesterday. So, we pulled up from the archives because we talked about this a lot on this show. CBO's estimates for the Trump 2017 tax cuts, look at the estimates and look at the actual numbers. They're pretty much in line. In fact, the CBO was pretty much on target except for perhaps the effect of a once in a generation pandemic. So, the idea that the CBO is suddenly unreliable is not true. But even if they were, what are the president's numbers? What does he think it's going to be?
SEAT: Well, let's talk about the Tax Cut Act. I didn't get to finish this point last night, which is -- it was unpopular before it was passed. Once Americans saw the positive effects, they want it to be extended. And that's what the big, beautiful bill is.
PHILLIP: But what does the president think is going to happen to Medicaid recipients as a result of this bill?
SEAT: So I, I think something that has been lost in this entire conversation is if we have any chance of getting our fiscal house in order of reducing deficits in debt for the long-term, we will have to make difficult decisions when it comes to the mandatory spending programs, including Medicaid.
[22:05:05]
That's a reality. And if we keep --
PHILLIP: Okay. I'm sorry, I'm going to let Sheelah in. She's chuckling over there.
SHEELAH KOLHATKAR, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Well, it's hard to know where to begin. But, I mean, Everyone agrees that this bill is not going to reduce our fiscal problems. It's massively adding to the deficit by $3 trillion.
SEAT: It cuts more than $1 trillion.
KOLHATKAR: Well, based on fake math that you guys are peddling.
SEAT: Do you believe that our money earned is the property of the government?
PHILLIP: No, it's because it -- because that is the cost of the bill. I mean, you can say --
SEAT: That tax cuts don't cost anything. I reject that.
PHILLIP: You can say -- first of all, you can say that it doesn't matter. That's your opinion. But the fact of the matter is that the deficits -- this is not just according to me, this is according to the CBO, you can ask Chip Roy, you can ask Rand Paul you can ask all these different people, Republicans, Thom Tillis, it adds to the deficit. It does nothing to reduce the liabilities that the government has to pay.
SEAT: And you're pointing to a couple of Republicans, when 94 percent of the caucus voted for the bill. PHILLIP: I'm just saying that the Republicans of ten years ago would have said that the debt and the deficit are the two existential problems that are facing this nation. And if you don't address them, our children are going to pay and you're going to set the country on a cliff, you know, to oblivion. I mean, that was the argument of Republicans. Where has that gone?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. I think you can cut taxes or make the tax cuts permanent and add other tax cuts for working class Americans. I think you can do necessary welfare reform. I think you can invest in the southern border and border security, which this bill is doing. And then you can also pay attention to spending.
Now, Pete's right. I mean, some of this bill, doesn't get to the mandatory spending and ultimately of the federal budget right now, like 21 percent of it is discretionary and the rest is just mandatory spending. So, you got to tackle that down the road. This isn't a spending bill, it's a reconciliation bill, and it's largely a tax bill that makes the tax cuts permanent, adds tax cuts for working class Americans.
On the Medicaid piece, though, there's obviously going to be a big debate about this. I mean, there are like almost 5 million able-bodied people on Medicaid who simply choose not to work. They spend six hours a day socializing and watching television. And if you can't get off grandma's couch and work, I don't want to pay for your welfare.
PHILLIP: I don't know where you're getting those numbers.
JENNINGS: CBO. CBO.
PHILLIP: CBO says there are 5 million Americans who sitting on their couch watching television and --
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Regardless, this kicks 17 million --
JENNINGS: CBO that you just cited.
SELLERS: This kicks 17 million people off of -- false, the 17 million people off --
PHILLIP: And the numbers that we have, just so that we're on the page.
SELLERS: Level set it from the same page.
PHILLIP: That's level set. And the numbers that we have, Senate version, 11.8 million people left uninsured by 2034. The House version is 10.9 million. So, the Senate version is a little bit more aggressive than the House version.
SELLERS: But I think that there are a few things. There are a few things. And we've really spoken on a very high level here, but let's just get in the weeds. There are people who are going to be kicked off their healthcare when this bill passes and when this bill is signed into law. That's a fact. And I think that Republicans have done a great job of kind of needling this theory that there are able-bodied people, that there are people who are just obese sitting in their grandmother's basement playing PlayStation, eating Cheerios off their stomach. That's not the case.
What happens in this country is you actually have the working poor. You got people in this country who work day in and day out who make our lives a much better place, who work 40, 50, 60 hours, who still fall in that gap because there's certain states that haven't even expanded Medicaid. But what we're doing is we are contracting that. What we're doing is saying these people don't have access to that healthcare.
And the irony in that entire discussion is that, yes, Republicans -- and this is what frustrates me about my own party, about Democrats, because we are just -- we are ass backwards, like we're terrible at this. You had Peter Thiel, you had Elon Musk and you had Jeff Bezos standing behind Donald Trump at the inauguration and we are literally cutting from poor people. Those same people I'm talking about, those women, those children, those pregnant women, and we're giving the people who are standing behind Donald Trump a tax break and Democrats can't figure out how to message this.
CHRISTINE QUINN (D), FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: And let me tell you, I run -- what I do for a living is work with homeless families, homeless women and their children. And those women want to work. Over half of them --
JENNINGS: They will not lose any benefits.
QUINN: That is simply not true.
JENNINGS: They will not.
QUINN: They will. It is simply not true. We will have women and children who will lose their coverage while they're simultaneously having their food stamps, SNAP benefits, cut back. And one of the categories of people who will get less SNAP benefits are domestic violence survivors.
So, this isn't even just a one whack, it is a one-two punch at working poor. And right now, the face of the homeless in New York -- in this country and in New York are working women.
[22:10:04]
And they are going to be terribly affected by this. There are not 12 million people who are undocumented or waste, frauds and abuse.
SELLERS: Can I ask you a question?
QUINN: It doesn't happen.
SELLERS: Can I just like I ask a question that I think, that many people watching will ask, is why can we not do this piece and parcel? Like why can't we bring up a bill that says that we're going to protect our southern border? And then because we've talked about that for years, I mean, we actually had Marco Rubio and Chuck Schumer on the same page about immigration reform. And then why can't we actually have a bill to reform some of the entitlements that we want to? And then why can't we have a bill that does X? I mean, so --
PHILLIP: It's because I'll -- I mean, I'll --
SELLERS: I want to hear the answer.
PHILLIP: (INAUDIBLE) explanation, the way that this bill is structured is that you need to take from some pockets of money, let's call it Medicaid and SNAP, in order to pay for the tax cut.
SELLERS: I've been thinking about this argument all day.
PHILLIP: I'm going to bring Sheelah in on this because, I mean, this is super important. I mean, look at -- you talked about working in middle class people and what they're getting out of this bill, Scott, but this is the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. The lion's share of benefit from this tax bill goes to the wealthiest, $64,000, if you make more than $900,000 a year. If you are in the lowest part of the economic spectrum, the poorest 20 percent, the second poorest 20 percent, you're looking at less than a thousand dollars annually from this bill. I mean, it's pretty significant.
KOLHATKAR: So, to me this just looks like a slightly modernized version of trickledown economics the same thing the Republicans have been trying to foist on Americans, very unpopular, by the way, but since the 1980s, where they basically want to drastically reduce the federal government. They want to kick people off of their benefits and disproportionately drive tax cuts to very wealthy people and high earners. And those people are going to do better and supposedly it will all flow down to the rest of us. But this has been discredited. It doesn't work.
And all of this other stuff is sort of nonsense to conceal the fact that this is an old play that they have been trotting out for decades, and it has failed.
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance back in 2017, when he was doing other things --
QUINN: A different person.
PHILLIP: -- he said the Senate bill, he was talking then about the bill that would have changed the Affordable Care Act, the Senate bill offers a bit more to the needy, but still leaves many unable to pay for basic services. And the rosiest projections of each version, millions will be unable to pay for basic healthcare. This wasn't acceptable to Reagan in 1961 and it shouldn't be acceptable to his political heirs. What changed?
SEAT: Well, I want to go back to this study because I do know -- I believe it's manipulative.
PHILLIP: It would be nice if you answer that my question. SEAT: But it's a manipulative -- because I disagree and it needs to be said. It is a manipulative study. When you're looking at and only talking about raw numbers, yes. A 2 percent tax cut for someone making a half million dollars is going to be more than 10 percent --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let's -- okay, I'll let you answer, but let's look at it another way. Let's look at it another way. The share of tax cuts in this bill, 69 percent of it goes to the richest 20 percent of Americans.
KOLHATKAR: You can't refute that.
PHILLIP: 1 percent of the tax cuts in this bill, go to the poorest 20 percent.
SEAT: Many would go pay taxes at all.
PHILLIP: Okay. 5 percent go to the second poorest, 20 percent, people who make less than $53,000 a year, people who are working at McDonald's, people who are working at KFC, whatever it is. Middle class people, okay, $53 to $92,000 a year, they are taking home just 10 percent of the benefit of this bill, 10 percent --
SEAT: And yet by 2-1 margin, Americans wanted to extend --
PHILLIP: -- of the lion's share in terms of the number -- but hold on, in terms of the number of people in this country, right, the people -- the huge sums of people who make less than a hundred thousand dollars a year cumulatively are taking home less than 16 percent of the value of this bill in terms of tax cuts.
QUINN: And you keep saying Americans want that. In the most recent CNN poll, about 49 percent of Americans were opposed to the big, beautiful bill. So, it is not 2-1.
SEAT: But not tax cuts being extended.
QUINN: But it's all one thing. It's the big beautiful bill and they are against it, 49 percent.
PHILLIP: Scott, on the J.D. Vance of it all?
JENNINGS: On the -- look, I'll tell you what has changed, because between 2019 and 2024, we went from spending $4.5 trillion in this country to almost $7 trillion. And during that same time period, we now spend 50 percent more on the Medicaid program over a five-year period.
Ultimately, the rate of growth in our federal budget and in this particular program is not sustainable. It is not politically unpopular to say we don't think illegal immigrants should be getting welfare benefits.
[22:15:02]
It's not politically unpopular to say, why does someone who works for a living have to get up and go fight for what they get but somebody who won't get off grandma's couch won't. These are things Republican can't answer on their own.
PHILLIP: I mean, Scott, a lot of dispute that characterization of the lion's -- hold on a second -- of the lion's share of the people in that pool. Undocumented immigrants, maybe 1.5 million people.
JENNINGS: Yes.
PHILLIP: The rest of those people, 10 million of them are Americans. And I think the other thing that people would dispute is this idea that healthcare should be a gun held to the head of people, that whether -- you know, do you know what I'm saying? Like -- I don't -- do you understand what I'm saying? I think that's what J.D. Vance was getting at was that healthcare should not be used as a bargaining chip in forcing people to do certain behaviors.
JENNINGS: I understand the debate. I understand the debate. But, ultimately, if you have a conversation in this country about getting people off of welfare and into the workforce, at some point the rubber meets the road, whether that's on healthcare or any other government benefits they have.
PHILLIP: When does the rubber, when does the rubber meet the road for the wealthy?
JENNINGS: What do you mean? They pay most of the taxes in this country? A vast majority of the taxes are paid by the --
PHILLIP: When does the rubber -- I think when does the rubber meet the road for wealthy? When do they have to -- when do we have to make tough choices and say, okay, maybe they can pay 2 percent more? Does that ever happen?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, people argue about taxation rates all the time in campaigns and this bill, I mean, the wealthy still pay the top --
PHILLIP: That conversation did not happen with Republicans. Bakari, last word.
SELLERS: No, I mean, I just think the conversation is not intellectually honest. And I think the fact if you want to have a conversation about what happened between 2016 and 2024, you have to realize that the economy's changed vastly because we had a once in a hundred year pandemic, and Scott forgets that in his analysis.
JENNINGS: No, you're right, I agree with you. But why didn't we bring spending down when it ended?
SELLERS: But also --
JENNINGS: We didn't bring spending down when it ended. Did you forget that it ended?
SELLERS: Spending actually went up under Donald Trump. JENNINGS: Yes, because of the pandemic. You're right. Why didn't it come back down under Biden? Why did it come down when the pandemic ended? You don't have an answer for this.
SELLERS: There is one -- no it's -- that's --
JENNINGS: Is it still going on? Are you still sick?
SELLERS: No. What I'm also saying is that there are --
JENNINGS: You got long COVID?
SELLERS: $4 million -- $4 trillion, you're adding to the deficit. So, I can have long COVID, short COVID, medium COVID. Literally, your party's adding $4 trillion to the deficit right now. You don't have to.
But also my only point is that we are pissing on the poor on this show. And my only point is that there are people called the working poor. There are people that are not just avoiding work because they want to. There are people who are working hard who still cannot afford things, like healthcare.
JENNINGS: They want those benefits.
PHILLIP: All right. Let's put up a pin in that conversation.
Up next for us, Donald Trump says that he's looking at deporting Elon Musk after the billionaire criticized his bill.
Plus, as the president touts his alligator pit, he threatens to deport American citizens in a new escalation. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: The president's insult parade is crowded tonight attacking anyone who dares to speak out against him or his policies. Here are some of the names that he's targeted in just the last 48 to 72 hours. Thom Tillis. Tom Massie, Japan, Canada, Jerome Powell, Harvard, former DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, and then, of course, we cannot forget Elon Musk who's been lashing out at Trump's bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are going to deport Elon Musk?
TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, we'll have to take a look. We might have to put DOGE on Elon, you know? You know what DOGE is? DOGE is the monster that has -- that might have to go back and eat Elon. Wouldn't that be terrible?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And this is all coming from a president who prides himself on doing this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Banned all government censorship and restored free speech in America.
I've stopped all government censorship and brought back free speech in America. It's back.
We brought back free Speech to America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: No criticism, Elon, or we'll take your government subsidies away.
JENNINGS: Well, he's never been known, the president, to shy away from debating someone who's publicly taking him on. So, I'm not surprised to see him jousting with Elon. I still consider them both to be important.
I think the dividing line in politics right now for me is who's trying to preserve western civilization and who's not. And I still think Trump and Elon are on the same side of that line. I hope someday they get it back together.
PHILLIP: Scott, you look very uncomfortable.
JENNINGS: I love them both, as you know. I love them both and I don't like it when they fight. And I've never liked it when they fight. I don't like it my friends are fighting. They're fighting. I don't like it. Yes, I'm going to hide in the garage.
PHILLIP: Trump says Elon may get more subsidy than any human being in history by far. And without subsidies, Elon would probably have to close up, shop and head back home to South Africa.
SELLERS: I love it. I mean, he called Elon a welfare queen. I mean, that's -- he looked dead on the camera and said, Elon Musk is a welfare queen. And I will take your welfare queen money and send you back to where you came from.
I mean, he uses the same slurs against Elon that he uses against everybody. I mean, Donald Trump, if nothing else, is extremely honest and equal opportunity. I actually, though, am taking Elon in this battle because I want to defeat the big -- I refuse to be a grown man and call a piece of legislation a big, beautiful anything. This reconciliation bill, I won't --
[22:25:01]
JENNINGS: Oh, you're worried about the bill? You called it the Inflation Reduction Act and that was a bunch of crap.
SELLERS: Well, I --
JENNINGS: I mean, it wasn't.
SELLERS: At least it had a goal or objective. I mean, Donald Trump literally has you all on a leash talking about big, beautiful bill. Like we're adults and that is how we characterize things with the literation like --
JENNINGS: Well, it is big, it is beautiful and it is a bill.
SEAT: That is technically what it's called.
QUINN: You know, in a way, the whole Elon-Donald Trump thing, you know, I could say, give me the popcorn and I'm just going to sit and watch it all go down. But it's actually not a great thing for the country, right? So, you had at one moment these two guys in lockstep. Now they're fighting. And I just think that this kind of behavior on the president's part attacking people makes Americans uncomfortable, makes them nervous. Who's in charge if they're all fighting with each other?
I think we have to remember that how leaders behave affects people's confidence in their government. And when people lose confidence in their government, that's a terrible thing.
PHILLIP: Sheelah, do you think Elon's going to actually carry out his threat? I mean, he said he's going to primary every Republican who votes for this bill. He's threatening to put his money behind opposing Trump and Trump's supporters.
KOLHATKAR: It's such a sad commentary on where we've come to in terms of our political economy that this one individual. He could actually do that on some level. He has the money to potentially interfere in every single Congressional election, if he wanted. And that's not -- that doesn't bode well for our democracy. That is not good.
And although the whole thing is mesmerizing, it's like staring at a car wreck. I kind of -- you know, like Christine, I want the popcorn, but it's very troubling, the fact that this is happening, the fact that they're both trying to wield both their fortunes, and in the president's case, the levers of government to potentially --
PHILLIP: So, that is the part. I mean, I think that is the part that perhaps is the most important thing here. You don't have to like Elon Musk to wonder what it says about the government that Trump is basically saying, hey, I'm in charge. You want a government contract, so what?
QUINN: Right.
PHILLIP: You're speaking out against me. I can take it away.
SEAT: Well, he is in charge, and if we're going to scrutinize government spending, everything should be on the table. But Musk is also talking about starting a new party. And running Republicans in primaries and standing up a new party are in conflict with one another. He's going to run into ballot access issues all across this country. I think Elon Musk is completely miscalculating the fact that he thinks he has a political constituency beyond Russian bots on Twitter and that people are going to follow him. The only reason he has any political cachet is because he aligned himself with Donald Trump.
SELLERS: That's not true though. Your statement is fundamentally false.
KOLHATKAR: He is the wealthiest man in the world.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But can we just clarify -- no, that's not true. What you're saying is not a fact. What you're saying is that that the fact of the matter is the only reason he has political cache is because he spent $200 million in an election.
JENNINGS: On who?
SELLERS: It's not that Trump aligned himself. If he -- you aligned yourself with Donald Trump. But the fact is you didn't have $200 million to spend.
JENNINGS: How do you know yet?
SELLERS: It is a nice blazer, Scott.
JENNINGS: Look, these guys -- at the end of the day, Elon's -- whatever happens with his political match, his concerns about the fiscal health of the country are not unfounded, nearly $40 trillion in debt. I mean, somebody does eventually have to pay attention because he's not wrong about that.
PHILLIP: Wait. Was it not 30 minutes ago that we were just having that discussion that you told --
SELLERS: It wasn't 30, it's 10 minutes.
PHILLIP: And you told me that this spending doesn't matter. I mean, look -- right.
JENNINGS: It does matter. But long-term, his issues are long-term structural issues. It's not going to be solved in a reconciliation bill. It's going to be solved over time in spending bills and appropriations bills and our national priorities. They're not unfounded.
PHILLIP: Well, this reconciliation bill does absolutely nothing to help. I think we can all agree on that.
JENNINGS: It's going to call for economic growth.
PHILLIP: Sheelah Kolhatkar, thank you very much for joining us.
Up next, he floated and alligator moat for migrants back in his first term, and tonight he actually got one. But it's what Donald Trump said about deportations and revoking citizenship that's sparking the most debate tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump threatens to widen his deportation net to include American citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But we also have a lot of bad people that have been here for a long time. People that whack people over the head with a baseball bat from behind when they're not looking and kill them. People that knife you when you're walking down the street. They're not -- they're not new to our country. They're old to our country. Many of them were born in our country.
I think we ought to get them the hell out of here too if you want to know the truth. So maybe that'll be the next job that we'll work on together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now keep in mind, the DOJ is also now threatening to strip naturalized citizens of their legal status for committing certain crimes.
All of this comes as Trump is touting the opening of what he's calling Alligator Alcatraz, an immigration facility surrounded by swamp and predators that holds 3,000 people. Republicans are touting it as low cost, complete with water, sewage, and power, and critics call it inhumane.
[22:34:56]
Despite all the sort of theater of the Alligator Alcatraz of it all, Trump's comments today were really stunning, honestly. American citizens, he's talking about people who were born here and threatening to, what, put them in a deportation facility, deport them, take away their citizenship. What are we talking about here?
CHRISTINE QUINN (D), FORMER SPEAKER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: I mean, he even talked, I think, when he was with the El Salvadorian president about needing more prisons there for things like this. I mean, it's beyond if you were to make a list of outrageous things Donald Trump was going to do, I don't think this would even have made it on the list. It is so just crazy.
But the thing is that crazy things that Donald Trump says come to fruition. He will just do whatever he thinks. And now that this is in his mind, it's truly frightening that he might actually move forward and make, try to make a penalty for a crime being deportation for people who were born in this country. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's not just -- it's
not being deported and dropped off. I think what he has raised is the idea that we'll house some prisoners in a prison in another country. Now I have no idea whether this is legal or constitutional.
QUINN: It's not legal or constitutional.
JENNINGS: And I'm sure that'll be debated out. And if it's not, then it won't happen. But what he is saying is if you have extremely violent populations that need to be housed in a prison somewhere, what's the difference between housing them in a prison here or there other than the debate, I guess, over the legality of it? But that that's what he has been raising.
PHILLIP: Other than a petty little thing called the law.
QUINN: Right. And they're citizens.
PHILLIP: I mean, it's --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I don't think what, I mean, I don't think I don't know what law you're saying.
PHILLIP: What authority would a president of the United States be able to deport American citizens to the jurisdiction of a foreign country even for committing crimes?
JENNINGS: I don't know. Like I said, I don't know what the legality of it is. I don't know if the Department of Justice has issued a memo on it. Just for the purposes of this conversation tonight, what his point was, if you have extremely violent populations that need to be warehoused in a prison, he raised the idea of putting them on a prison.
PHILLIP: We deal with extremely violent populations just for --
(CROSSTALK)
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just think that, I don't think you can say I don't think you can avoid what Alligator --
QUINN: Alcatraz.
SELLERS: -- Alcatraz is. I mean, I don't think you can just turn a blind eye to it. I think it's anti American. I think the fact that you're going to have individuals and populations in there that are stacked on top of each other, many of whom without due process.
And let me just also say this before it runs on clips throughout social media is that I don't think there's going to be any Democrat in this country, including myself or you, Christine, who says that if you are -- if you have committed a violent crime or any crime whatsoever, you shouldn't be deported.
QUINN: Right.
SELLERS: I'm not saying that. You should be.
QUINN: Of course.
SELLERS: However, the fact that, Donald Trump this morning said you should learn how to swim --
QUINN: Right.
SELLERS: -- sideways. I mean, there are certain things about this country and the virtues of it. And the reason that Donald Trump and others are able to build Alligator Alcatraz is because of the simple fact that you don't give people the benefit of their humanity.
I also think that look, if we want to have a conversation about who belongs where, when, how, and whether or not their citizenship status, and we want to look at everything. I mean, I would look at, Donald Trump Junior. I mean, I would look at all of Melania's kids, all of Ivanka's kids.
I mean, let's just have a full conversation over who belongs here, how do they get here, their citizenship status. Let's just have a full discussion about all of it. Why is that not on the table right now? I mean, the only person here, it should be Tiffany Trump if we're going to have this discussion.
PHILLIP: Can I ask you, Pete, to respond to what Bakari said about the humanity of it all? The idea that because you're an undocumented immigrant, we don't know who they're going to put there, you know, they -- we already know that a lot of the people that they're detaining are not -- don't have criminal records. Where is the humanity? And what place does it have in this conversation?
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: We'll have to see how many people actually end up there. I think part of this facility is to try and incentivize those who are here illegally to self deport. To say, hey, you don't want to be here. You don't want to go to Alligator Alcatraz, so you should probably just leave the United States of your own accord.
The DOJ memo is very interesting going back to talking about legalities.
PHILLIP: About denaturalizing citizens.
SEAT: Depends denaturalize citizens. That is a law on the books. So the DOJ is looking to prioritize the enforcement of America's existing laws. There was an instance just earlier this year where somebody had their citizenship revoked, denatural -- I can't even say the word. It happened because they were convicted of distributing child abuse materials.
PHILLIP: Yes.
SEAT: It's something that can happen. PHILLIP: It is something that can happen, but it's something that is
relatively rare and is usually reserved for things like what you're describing there. But one of the things that's interesting about that memo is that it says, in addition to heinous crimes, right?
[22:39:54]
I'm not sure there's a lot of dispute about the code and what it says about crimes being a case for denaturalization, but it also says cases referred by a U.S. Attorney's Office in connection with pending criminal charges if those charges do not fit within one of the other priorities.
So that's basically any crime. But you may be caught with marijuana. I get it. Maybe you're caught with marijuana. That's any crime.
SEAT: I admit we're not (inaudible). It's a loosey-goosey.
PHILLIP: The number 10. Any other case is referred to the civil division that the division determines to be sufficiently important to pursue. So I think when people look at this, they look at this as a carte blanche.
QUINN: Yes. It's totally subjective.
PHILLIP: To just say, Zohran Mamdani, you're a naturalized citizen. You're a high priority for us. We'll take it away.
QUINN: Right.
PHILLIP: What are the guardrails here?
SEAT: Of course.
QUINN: And you just said it's a little loosey-goosey. This is not a good thing to be loosey-goosey with, denaturalizing people, sending them to jails in El Salvador. I mean, you cannot by definition, if there was one thing you wanted to have tightened up, it would be this. And by, you say the courts.
So, are people then going to be waiting in El Salvador on their knees bent over while we're waiting for the courts to decide whether that American citizen should have been taken out of this country?
SEAT: I don't know. But I do know that --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: That's not okay.
SEAT: That you jump to the worst possible conclusion with nearly everything that Donald Trump says or does.
QUINN: Put these (Ph) --
SEAT: Including enforcing the laws of this country. QUINN: And he said to the El Salvadorian president, we need more prisoners there. I'm just basing on what he said.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I also -- I also just wonder, I mean, there are plenty, according to Trump, of criminals who are here illegally that he can deport. Why does he keep talking about American citizens? Why is that a thing that keeps coming up?
Denaturalizing people who have citizenship, who've gone through a process, who've it's an onerous process. It's not an easy thing to become a citizen of this country. Why does that keep coming up? And is this an open door for him to start using the same, you know, if authorities that he's using against undocumented people against Americans?
JENNINGS: Well, you heard him in the clip you played. He's obviously concerned about people who are extraordinarily violent being in this country. He doesn't like the idea that people have come here --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: There are extremely violently --
JENNINGS: -- and been extremely violent.
PHILLIP: -- people who are born in this country.
JENNINGS: And he doesn't like them either.
PHILLIP: Yes. Well, they're born here. They're American citizens, and they have rights. So why does, I mean, I don't understand why he doesn't over the history of this country, you don't think that we've been dealing with extraordinarily violent people for a very long time under the law?
JENNINGS: He'd probably say we're not deal -- we're not dealing with them. Tough enough. I mean, it's probably his view. I mean, you heard what he said. He does not like the idea that extremely violent populations are not dealt with in the toughest possible manner. That is basically his position.
PHILLIP: Do you -- last word, Bakari.
SELLERS: I think this is exactly what it is. I mean, I think a lot of it's rooted in the words that people don't like around this table. It's rooted in a lot of xenophobia. It's rooted in a lot of bigotry. It is what it is. We should enforce the laws of this land.
However, what we're doing right now, I'll go back to what I said at the beginning, is completely anti American. I mean, the fact simply because you were looking for a better life. And, yes, we want to deport, and I want to be extremely clear, people who commit a crime, violent or not, no one is arguing that point with you.
But Alligator Alcatraz is the most un-American thing I've seen probably since last week.
PHILLIP: All right, guys. Next for us, the president says he would arrest New York City's Democratic mayoral candidate and calls him a communist. We're going to discuss that next.
[22:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, Zohran Mamdani has officially clinched the victory in the Democratic primary for New York City mayor after last week's stunning upset over former Governor Andrew Cuomo. At the same time, Mamdani is drawing the ire of President Trump who took direct aim at the Democratic socialist today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Zohran Mamdami, who in his nomination speech said he will defy ICE and will not allow ICE to arrest criminal aliens in New York City. Your message to communist Zohran Mandani.
TRUMP: Well then, we'll have to arrest him. A lot of people are saying he's here illegally. He's, you know, we're going to look at everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He's not here illegally, by the way. He is an American citizen. Here's Mamdani's response.
His statements don't just represent an attack on our democracy, but an attempt to send a message to every New Yorker who refuses to hide in the shadows. If you speak up, they will come for you. We will not accept this intimidation.
JENNINGS: But it would be illegal if he interfered with federal agents who are trying to enforce federal law, would it not?
QUINN: He can tell city agencies, like the officers in the Department of Corrections, not to bring people over to ICE at Rikers. You can do that. You can't tell ICE what to do if you're the mayor of the City Of New York, but you can tell what your own departments to do, and it can make a big difference. I know that because I passed a bill when I was speaking to you that said that.
JENNINGS: So, you're saying that the position of the socialist here in New York now is that they should use city resources to interfere with the federal government enforcement of the law?
QUINN: Absolutely not. I'm saying the city resources shouldn't get involved in what the feds are doing. There's no reason the city resources should make their jobs easier unless --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: But he's running, it's part of his platform. Do you support the platform or not? That's my question is, what's the position of the Democrats in New York? Are they going to follow this socialist trying to interfere with federal agents or not? What will the Democrats do?
QUINN: He's not trying to interfere with federal agencies.
JENNINGS: He's literally said it.
[22:49:56]
QUINN: He is going to implement the laws that exist, which prevent city agencies from working in cahoots.
JENNINGS: Okay. So that's all they get. That's very cute.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, --
SEAT: This for you guys, but not --
PHILLIP: To her, but to her point, I mean, you're asking, does she support what he's saying? But that's actually already the New York City --
QUINN: Correct.
PHILLIP: -- policy.
QUINN: That's the law.
PHILLIP: It's not something new.
SELLERS: But, I mean, I don't, listen. I love --
PHILLIP: I know. I'm just saying, like, you're acting as if this is, like, breaking new ground. It's not.
JENNINGS: It's literally part of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The Democrats in New York already (inaudible) I know. But I'm saying Democrats in New York already endorsed this because --
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: Yes. We can.
PHILLIP: -- this is the policy.
QUINN: It's the (inaudible). Right.
JENNINGS: Okay. So just the clear -- so what you're saying is the position of the Democrats in New York is to interfere with the federal government when it comes to enforcing federal immigration.
QUINN: No. What the position --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: That's what the existing position.
QUINN: The position is not to roll out the red carpet for ICE.
JENNINGS: Why?
QUINN: That is the position in --
JENNINGS: Why shouldn't federal law be enforced in New York just like everywhere else?
QUINN: The city of New York has the right as a sanctuary city to say, we're not going to, in Rikers, allow ICE to set up a table, which they used to do, and walk people over to them. It's the law.
SELLERS: You know, the most amazing thing about this discussion is that you have people like Frank Scott, right, who's the mayor of Little Rock, Arkansas. And you have people like Randall Woodfin, who's the mayor of Birmingham, Alabama, who are cities and capital cities of great Southern states who've reduced their crime by 50 percent, who are the future of the Democratic party.
You have people like Abigail Spanberger. You have people like Mikie Sherrill, who are not only running for governor in Virginia, but New Jersey respectively. Helena Moreno running for mayor of New Orleans of these major cities who have platforms and plans.
I love how Republicans have actually just kind of and Democrats, respectfully, in New York have kind of galvanized and said that the world revolves around us.
QUINN: Wow. Thank God.
SELLERS: I would -- I'm going to the barbershop on Thursday, and my barber does not care. I need a tape up. I know. But my barber doesn't -- Tremaine does not care about who the mayor of New York City is. He simply does not.
JENNINGS: Listen, comrade. It's an important city.
SELLERS: Can you not touch me? Can you not touch me? Jesus. I was waiting on you. I was waiting on you.
PHILLIP: I mean, we glossed over the fact that Trump threatened to arrest him and called him illegal, but that's, you know, I guess, just another day.
SEAT: Yes. Well, and I should point out this whole he says that he's a democratic socialist. He's a socialist. I'll be kind. But calling him a communist is not far off base when he talks about seizing the means of production. That is a Communist Party plank. He is talking about doing that, so I don't have any problem with calling him what he is. SELLERS: And I don't have any problem calling Donald Trump a felon, or
charged with rape, or fact that he doesn't pay his vendors or the fact that he's racist because he got -- he listened to this a day ago.
JENNINGS: And he was.
SELLERS: So, I don't have any problems. And you're right.
QUINN: As all of those men.
SELLERS: And you know what. You may have a Democratic socialist elected as mayor of New York City.
JENNINGS: No. You agree with Pete that he is a communist then?
QUINN: He's not a communist.
SELLERS: He's a socialist.
JENNINGS: He said sees the means of production.
SELLERS: He's a socialist.
QUINN: He is not a communist.
SELLERS: I'm not a socialist.
JENNINGS: Literally, he calls himself. He's using the language of the Bolsheviks, is he not?
SELLERS: That's no. He's not. He's a socialist, not a communist.
PHILLIP: All right.
JENNINGS: He's using a means of production.
SELLERS: That's called socialism, not communist.
JENNINGS: He's (inaudible). Those are dictators.
SELLERS: Those are different.
JENNINGS: That's where you hear me like that.
PHILLIP: Everyone, coming up next, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps. They'll tell us what else needs hardcore restrictions inspired by a new smoking ban in, of all places, France.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for the Newsnight cap smoking ban edition. Today, France has banned smoking in many outdoor areas, including beaches and parks.
So, you each have 30 seconds to tell us what else needs some hardcore restrictions. Pete, you're up.
SEAT: I'm going with influencers in the wild. They inconvenience society. We have to maneuver around them as they film their TikToks and take their perfectly lit Instagram photos, and I'm tired of it.
I'd probably yell at them if they weren't filming. I don't need that getting out there. So, we still have some time with the big beautiful bill. Let's get it in there. Make it happen.
PHILLIP: Listen. He's not wrong. I mean, we all are, like, kind of --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: And we have a detention facility to put them in here.
PHILLIP: We all have -- well, we all have Instagram.
SEAT: We're working out.
PHILLIP: We're all Instagram animals in a way, but some of these folks, I'm like, get out of the way and stop doing this.
QUINN: Well, speaking of get out of the way, I want there to be lanes set up, particularly on New York City sidewalks, just for tourists. They walk too slow.
PHILLIP: They walk too slow.
QUINN: They slow us New Yorkers down. We got places to be, things to do. They're looking up. They're looking around at our great city. Great. I want them here. I want their money, but they need to step to the side and get out of our world.
PHILLIP: Especially on the escalators too.
QUINN: Move. You're supposed to take them, like, steps.
JENNINGS: Wait. You're saying you want people to walk up an escalator?
PHILLIP: I just want them if they're going to loiter, don't stand in the middle. Okay?
JENNINGS: I don't know.
PHILLIP: Bakari?
SELLERS: Nothing. Like, we have too many laws on the books. This is my libertarian streak coming out. Like, leave us alone. I'm tired of being bothered by people. I don't want police bothering me. I don't want security bothering me. I don't want New Yorkers bothering me. I saunter. I don't walk. I don't walk at a speed. I don't accelerate.
QUINN: Step aside.
SELLERS: And, Pete, influencers aren't interviewing you, Pete. Like, leave them alone. Let them go out in the wild. SEAT: They get in your way.
SELLERS: Oh, my God. Let them just, you know what you need?
SEAT: People on the sidewalk.
SELLERS: You walk around and we don't need anything else. Like, I am -- let's send Congress home and state legislatures home and city councils home for two years to contribute a better place.
JENNINGS: I know what do you want to restrict this.
[23:05:05]
PHILLIP: I'm what -- I'm kind of with you on that, but, Scott, last.
JENNINGS: I think we need restrictions on if you're over the age of 21 and you go to Disneyland or Disney World and you don't have children straight to Alligator Alcatraz, El Salvador, and I just --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But have you ever been to Epcot?
JENNINGS: I'm just saying. This is weird, and talk about people that get in the way of things. You're trying to take your kids there, and you got these weirdos walking around. I'm just saying.
PHILLIP: Go to Epcot. It's great for grownups. Okay?
Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching Newsnight. You can catch me anytime on social media X, Instagram, and TikTok.
Laura Coates Live. It's right now.
