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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Wall Street Journal Reports, Racy Letter Bearing Trump's Name was Given to Epstein; Trump Asks DOJ to Unseal Epstein Grand Jury Transcripts. Host Stephen Colbert Announces End of Late Show on CBS; Trump Gets Checked For Vein Condition. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 17, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the report Donald Trump didn't want you to see, new revelations about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein as he slams the door on the MAGA mob.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president would not recommend a special prosecutor in the Epstein case.
PHILLIP: Also the White House makes an announcement about the president's physical health, but bizarre moments are raising concerns about his cognitive health.
LEAVITT: I'm a little bit surprised you would ask such a question.
PHILLIP: And sunset on late night. Paramount pulls the plug on Stevie Colbert and the CBS franchise. But is it for money or politics?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Adrienne Elrod, Ben Ferguson, Toure, and Elie Honig.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, the story Donald Trump wants silenced just got louder, because tonight The Wall Street Journal is out with new revelations about the president and his past relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. The Journal is reporting that a collection of letters gifted to Epstein for his 50th birthday in 2003 included a note bearing Trump's name and that it contained several lines of typewritten text in an outline of a naked woman.
According to the paper, the drawing depicts a woman's breasts and a squiggly Donald signature in place of pubic hair. The paper also adds that the note ends with the line. Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. Trump is denying the entire thing. He told the Journal, quote, this is not me. This is a fake thing. It's a fake Wall Street Journal story. I never wrote a picture in my life. I don't draw pictures of women. It's not my language. It's not my words. He also threatened to sue the Journal, saying, quote, just like I sued everyone else, he's going to sue them and its owner, Rupert Murdoch.
Joining us in our fifth seat at the table, CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. This is an extraordinary escalation. I'm not going to lie, I'm not sure I saw this quite what this was coming.
But, first of all, just on the legal front, Elie, the threat to sue over the existence of this letter, whether he himself wrote it or not, how credible?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm sure he will sue. I mean, he has shown that he is ready, willing, and able to sue media organizations at the drop of a hat. If he does sue, it's going to be really tough because the legal burden here is very high, because Donald Trump is of course, a public figure. So it's harder to win a defamation suit. He really has to show two things, first of all, that the Wall Street Journal defamed him that the statements here were damaging to him. That seems clear.
The harder part though, is going to be to show that they acted with what we call actual malice, meaning that they knew that what they reported was false or that they were reckless as to its falsity. That's the really hard part to show.
Wall Street Journal, I believe they tend to know what they're doing. They tend to have their stuff buttoned up. So, it wouldn't surprise me if he sues and it would surprise me if he wins. Not knowing the facts, but just knowing how high the legal bar is.
PHILLIP: So, Trump is saying, I didn't do this, but I think to me, it's a separate question, Scott, whether this thing exists. And it seems that the Journal has evidence that it does, in fact, exist and that it's perhaps among the many, many, many documents that are in the possession of investigators here.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, my, my reaction to reading this was, so, I mean, 2003, before anything had happened, we know Donald Trump knew the guy. We also know he disowned him and kicked him out of his club. I was waiting all day long for this rumoring of a bombshell.
This looks like kind of a dud to me. And, look, the president says it's not -- I don't know, but either way, this gives me like Kavanaugh yearbook vibes. My impression is Republicans are going to strongly rally around the president on this thing. I mean, he may have been facing some turbulence over the Epstein situation, but this is the sort of stuff that brings people to circle the wagons around him.
[22:05:04]
I'm just warning. PHILLIP: Just to be clear, Trump doesn't agree with you because he's clearly very pissed off about this, perhaps very freaked out about it because it's embarrassing.
TOURE, HOST, TRUTH TALKS PODCAST: I think this goes deep into the MAGA psyche and creates a cognitive dissonance. That is why we're seeing them revolt against him in this moment. He was supposed to be their guy who would go in there and do what the people would want and fight against the globalists who are pedophiles. Here's a perfect example of a globalist who is a pedophile. Trump told us, I'm going to out that guy in his client list. What happened? Now, he gets in, he acts like everybody else who's protecting the globalist pedophiles.
So, how could you continue to think as MAGA, he's going to protect us when he clearly didn't in this situation?
PHILLIP: And Trump has also, I mean, talked about Epstein. Scott, you know, you're making the point that, oh, they were just friends, this was before he knew anything about Epstein's, you know, alleged bad acts. But here's what he said in 2002 in a New York Magazine. So, this would've been a year before this birthday message. I've known Jeff for 15 years, terrific guy, he said over speaker phone. He's a lot of fun to be with it. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it, Jeffrey enjoys his social life.
This is also -- this is all in the public record as well.
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: Look, I think two things here. One, I think if this was such a big deal and why it wasn't used against him long before when he was running for president. I believe the president on this one, I think he probably is not a guy that draws pictures. I know a lot of people have gotten a lot of notes from him and they've never gotten a picture. They get a note from him and his signature that takes forever to sign. Like I look at this and I sit there and I'm like, this is it? Like this is the whole thing? Now, we're now we're talking about like --
PHILLIP: I don't know if he draws pictures of women, but we do have --
FERGUSON: We're talking about pictures here.
PHILLIP: Okay. I know.
FERGUSON: We're talking about --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: 22- year-old stuff.
PHILLIP: Okay. We do have this picture that drew.
FERGUSON: Man, there it is.
(CROSSTALKS) FERGUSON: No, it's done now. Yes, it's done.
PHILLIP: It's $30,000.
FERGUSON: And MAGA is turning on Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: This is going to kill him.
FERGUSON: Look at this picture, folks. Look at the picture. He's done.
JENNINGS: He'll never win.
FERGUSON: He's done. His presidency's over.
JENNINGS: Abby, he'll never win the '28 election. He'll never win the '28 primary.
FERGUSON: It's over. You can say this ruined.
PHILLIP: I'm just saying, Trump says in the statement --
FERGUSON: It's so rare he got $30,000 for the picture.
PHILLIP: He says, I never wrote a picture in my life. I don't draw pictures of women. I don't know if he draws pictures of women, but he has drawn a picture in his life with a sharpie, which is similar to what we are hearing about this image.
ADRIENNE ELROD, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER AND SENIOR SPOKESPERSON, HARRIS 2024 CAMPAIGN: Look, I think, Abby, here is the bottom line. Whether or not he drew this picture, whether or not this is actually a letter that he, you know, actually wrote or typed out or whatever it was with a weird picture, you know, that he drew behind her and didn't drive behind it. The bottom line is that to me is somewhat irrelevant. This is one someone who said infamously on camera that came out about two months before the 2016 election, I can grab women by the you know what, and he still won the election. So, I think that kind of persona perhaps is baked in.
I think the bigger issue here is that this has caused the MAGA base to kind of lose its mind. And the question is, is the MAGA base going to come back together or is this a base that is fractured, that is significantly fractured because people have been -- well, okay. Your colleagues, the Charlie Kirks of this world, people you know very well, had been all over the place, saying that they're very disappointed in Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: You guys --
PHILLIP: Charlie Kirk and Laura Loomer tonight have both said to other outlets that they don't necessarily believe that Trump wrote this or what have you. So, they're starting to circle the wagons on this, which is what Scott suggested earlier.
JENNINGS: The facts of Donald Trump's base are this, and we reported on this morning here on CNN. Since the Epstein business started, his job approval among Republicans has gone up. He's over 90 percent with Republicans. It's not hurting him with his base. I know you're a Democratic strategist, maybe not an expert on the MAGA base.
ELROD: The large voices in his base have been very frustrated.
JENNINGS: But look what's happening. He's gone up. Why? Because while we're all sitting here dealing with this nonsense, out in real America, he's signing legislation on fentanyl, he's talking about the A.I. future in Pennsylvania, securing the border, big, beautiful bill. So, his numbers are going up with Republicans. This is a fantasy that Democrats have been engaging in since January that Republicans would abandon.
ELROD: No, Scott, do not Trump.
JENNINGS: Trump, it's not happening.
ELROD: (INAUDIBLE) this on Democrats. This is something that the MAGA base.
JENNINGS: Listen to a Democrat, tell me Republicans don't support Trump, they do.
(CROSSTALKS)
ELROD: Whether or not you want to call it a conspiracy, whether or not you want to call it something that the MAGA base has cared about, this has been something that has been deeply rooted in the MAGA base for a long time.
TOURE: Yes, we see here the depth of their relationship.
ELROD: The Epstein file is being released.
FERGUSON: And I go back to -- hold on. We said this last night.
[22:10:00]
Wait, let's go back to last night. What did I say last night? I said I encouraged the president to get whatever's out there, even if it's nothing for transparency. There's a lot in the MAGA base that said that. And guess what the president did today? He said, it is time to put information out there even if it is nothing.
HONIG: I don't understand --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Okay. Let me let Elie respond to that because -- let me -- let Elie respond because Trump did make that statement saying he wants to release the -- what is allowed by a court right in the transcript. So, he was kind of specific about what he was talking about.
HONIG: So, first of all, Donald Trump is the one who tweeted about or Truth Socialed about this a half hour ago. So, this is brand new. And what Donald Trump said to do there is not to turn over all the Epstein files. I really want to make sure people understand the context here of what he did say he wanted released, because it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of those files.
We know from the FBI's memo last week that the entirety of the Epstein files is 300 gigabytes of information. I looked it up. I talked to a tech guy. That's equal to about 100,000 eBooks, okay? So, think about a book, 300 pages, a hundred thousand of those. That's how much information's in the entire Epstein file.
The grand jury transcripts means the written transcript that the court reporter takes of whoever went into the grand jury and testified. So, already you are leaving out tons of documents. Most witnesses, as a federal prosecutor, don't even go into the grand jury. They just talk to you in a conference room, not in the grand jury. So, we're talking about a 1 percent, 2 percent.
And it's not as if Pam Bondi can just release this stuff tomorrow. She has to go into a court. She has to explain to and convince a judge this stuff needs to be turned over. So --
JENNINGS: What's the likelihood a judge would say yes or --
HONIG: That's a great question. Oh, to all of the grand jury transcripts?
FERGUSON: I mean, it's a weird dichotomy because people were saying they want transparency and now you're telling me that transparency is probably not going to happen because a court would say no to it?
HONIG: So, this is an important point. Both -- DOJ historically doesn't turn this stuff over. If you ask, go ahead and ask DOJ for any of their closed criminal files, asking for the Trump files from Jack Smith, ask him for the Sean Combs files. They'll tell you to pound sand. We don't turn this over.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Ben, let --
HONIG: Hold on.
PHILLIP: Hang on a second.
HONIG: So, ordinarily, DOJ doesn't turn this stuff over and ordinarily judges are very reluctant to say, okay, I am going to open up the grand jury. The whole point of the grand jury is its secret. So, Pam Bondi's going to have to make a compelling showing beyond just the fact that, well, people are super interested in this, you have to show something.
PHILLIP: So, can say one other thing about this, because it's super important what you just said. There are things that are not grand jury testimony that the FBI has. Can they just release it without going to a court, those other things?
HONIG: Yes. If they want, yes they can.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, in other words, what I'm hearing --
HONIG: Well, let me just subject, you have to redact out information, victims in mind.
PHILLIP: Sure, subject to redactions, of course. But what I'm hearing is that Trump conveniently says, I'm being transparent, let me order them to release things that only a judge can allow them to release, not the things that they actually have the authority to release on their own.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Okay, all right. All right, he's the lawyer. Hold on. Let me just -- Elie, please just say what you just said again.
HONIG: I said that's exactly right. That's --
PHILLIP: Okay. Continue.
JENNINGS: He said -- the president has said, if you have anything credible, go ahead and release it. Did he also say that?
FERGUSON: Yes.
HONIG: But that's another reason. But that even narrows it further, because now who decides what is -- so what he said tonight is pertinent. His word tonight was pertinent. So, that gives Bondi another reason to go, well, I find this pertinent. So --
TOURE: (INAUDIBLE) into a legal situation when it's truly a politic situation.
PHILLIP: And who decides what's credible is a super important question.
FERGUSON: Apparently a judge.
HONIG: Yes.
PHILLIP: No. On the --
FERGUSON: That's what he said.
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: No, at DOJ, the attorney general.
PHILLIP: One the 1 or 2 percent of information, the judge has jurisdiction over grand jury testimony. There is a literal mountain of information that is under the control of the FBI that Donald Trump does not want to be released. You know how I know that? Because he could have said, release it, and he did not.
FERGUSON: I go back to like what we just had a moment ago. You're telling me that Donald Trump, and there's a lot of information that he cannot release. It has to go through a judge. Then you're saying he's being secretive because he's not releasing all of it, but he can't release it all.
PHILLIP: I'm actually saying there's a little bit of information that he cannot release because it's subject to a judge. And there is a lot of information that he can release that he has said nothing about.
HONIG: Let me estimate here, just having done a million cases. In any case file, I'll round up, 10, 15, 20 percent of your case file is going to be grand jury testimony. That subpart, you have to go to a judge. The rest of it, the other 80, 90 percent, Donald Trump, Pam Bondi can release tomorrow subject to redactions. So, you're right, Abby, the part that is in Donald Trump's control, he doesn't seem to be talking about. The part that you have to go through the whole process in the court, that's what he said, Pam Bondi, go ahead you. I want you to start that process.
PHILLIP: All right, let's hit pause on this conversation for a moment. Another special guest is going to join us at the table on these Epstein revelations. Don't worry, Elie Honig's not going anywhere.
[22:15:01]
Plus, a shock from the T.V. world tonight just weeks after a Paramount and Trump settlement, CBS abruptly announcing the end of Stephen Colbert Late Show, and now senators, they're demanding answers.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: More on our breaking news tonight. After a Wall Street Journal report on the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, the president is now asking the DOJ to release any pertinent grand jury testimony from this case.
Joining us now is former U.S. District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin.
[22:20:00]
Judge, great night to have you. Thank you very much for being here. We were just discussing what would a judge do. So, what do you think? I mean, how hard is it to release grand jury testimony?
HON. SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: There's a high bar, but it's not hard in the sense that the judge looks at it. The judge decides whether it's pertinent. But the question I had is, listening to you, pertinent to what? What are we talking about here? Pertinent to what is the big question. I think that's what Judge Berman, Richard Berman, who was my colleague for many years, that's what he is going to be thinking. Now, what is it pertinent to?
Look, it seems to me, and I didn't hear all of this earlier conversation, but this is a self-made problem. The Republicans campaigned on releasing it all because it was a big conspiracy and they were going to let it come out so the public would know, and all of a sudden when it's time to come out, after the attorney general said, it's on my desk, suddenly there's nothing there to release.
So, there's certainly a public interest on one side, but there's a privacy interest on the other. There are witnesses, there are victims that could be redacted, so you could release some statements and redact others, which means black them out. For people who didn't know what redact means, you can take things out and release it in that form. So, if I were a speculating person. I think something will get released of the grand jury minutes.
Now, I think, as I heard on the last segment, most of the material is not grand jury material. So, there's still a decision that somebody's making to release or not release, and that's not up to the judge.
JENNINGS: Can I ask a question of the judge. In a case like this, if -- does the court have to give an opportunity for people who may be mentioned in that transcript to come and object to this?
SCHEINDLIN: No, I think that the judge would consider that privacy interest and would probably redact. Look, the person at the center of it is dead. We have to recognize that. This is, in a way, such old news, but it self-made harm. It's self-inflicted.
TOURE: What marks pertinence? They said, that's the key question.
SCHEINDLIN: I said that.
TOURE: What do you weigh there?
SCHEINDLIN: No, I don't know because I'm not quite sure of the answer of pertinent to what?
JENNINGS: Public interest. You raised a phrase, public interest.
PHILLIP: And there is also Ghislaine Maxwell who is alive.
SCHEINDLIN: That's true.
PHILLIP: She's not dead.
SCHEINDLIN: That's true.
PHILLIP: And she is in prison because of her role.
JENNINGS: Well, she has a case pending before the Supreme Court. So, could she object to it saying it could hurt my case?
SCHEINDLIN: She could, but they haven't taken her case. I think it's a certain petition. I don't know that she's agreed yet to hear this appeal.
It would be unlikely, frankly, that they would take it. What's the legal issue that's of interest to the court? So --
ELROD: And you mentioned that there are people that, you know, could -- maybe this is not released because, you know, the people still have to be protected, but what about the president of the United States? Obviously, Jeffrey Epstein is dead, yes, the person who is at the center of this case. But if it involves the president of the United States as sitting president, how does that impact what's released?
SCHEINDLIN: If there's something in those -- in the grand jury testimony that might, in some way, impact him, that's something that the judge would have to consider in both directions. In other words, does the public have a right to know what his involvement was?
I mean, we seem to know an awful lot about it already, right? We've heard -- we've seen his picture every night as a young man with Jeffrey Epstein. We now hear his letters, his birthday cards, all the rest of it. So, we know a lot about that relationship.
PHILLIP: The fact that Trump brought this up in -- he wants this release because he's upset about The Wall Street Journal story, which is about him. He's seeming to make the answer to the question, what is pertinent, something that is about him. I mean, should -- is this whole thing just about either clearing his name or getting as much information about him as possible?
SCHEINDLIN: You know, it should be to counter the conspiracy argument that we've heard two years or three years. That's what it should be about, frankly. Again, the Republicans made this a big issue that there were some kind of -- well, I thought less. Now, only now, now when there's --
FERGUSON: Hold on. Was I living a different time when Democrats were saying that Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein and that he was in the Epstein files, like when all that was going on -- Hold on.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Ben, as we've discussed many times, first of all, A, it's not a speculation that Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. That's a fact. But, secondly --
FERGUSON: The conspiracy was that he was in the Epstein files. There was some big, massive story on Donald Trump. And Democrats used it.
PHILLIP: Donald Trump's --
FERGUSON: They did. Elected used it.
PHILLIP: -- relationship with Epstein is not a speculation. But it was the Republicans, the MAGA Republican, specifically Charlie Kirk, Tucker Carlson, Laura Loomer, I could go on and on, J.D. Vance, who all said that this is a conspiracy by the government to withhold information about powerful people who are in the Epstein files.
[22:25:01]
I'm telling you, Ben, this was an election issue for MAGA Republicans on the right, including the vice president of the United States.
FERGUSON: I'm with you on this.
SCHEINDLIN: Can we get in this debate?
PHILLIP: I have never heard --
SCHEINDLIN: You are -- let's say you're right. Hold on.
FERGUSON: No, I am right. The Democratic-elected officials, did you see --
SCHEINDLIN: Even so, even if both Democrats and Republicans, yes, even so, who really benefited from this conspiracy theory all about Jeffrey Epstein?
FERGUSON: The president wants transparency among a lot of issues, the assassination of JFK. That's not something to laugh about. Is that a thing to laugh about? He said he wanted transparency on a lot of issues.
PHILLIP: It is kind of silly to argue that this has not been the cause de jure of many on the MAGA -- the far MAGA right? I have never --
FERGUSON: On transparency.
PHILLIP: Okay. Listen, I have never -- the sitting vice president of the United States recently, just a couple weeks ago, was talking about the Epstein files. I've never heard the former vice president of the United States talk about Jeffrey Epstein.
ELROD: I was a senior adviser on the campaign. I don't think I ever said Jeffrey Epstein's name one time.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: You're also totally right about that. But Democrats now have suddenly said, okay, we want to know what's in these files. But that's a recent phenomenon. Up until now, it's been Republicans.
JENNINGS: One point of rebuttal on your point about it was a big issue. In our polling that Harry Enten on CNN went over this morning, one person, one Republican that they interviewed in the poll said it was their top issue. One person. Not 1 percent. One person.
SCHEINDLIN: Top issue. But how about near the top?
JENNINGS: I think it's been overstated the level of importance as it was --
PHILLIP: I don't think anybody -- hold on. Nobody's suggesting that this is supersedes the economy. Immigration, a whole host of other issues, but the question was, who was pushing the Epstein conspiracies, and the answer is without question, that it has been pushed far more on the right than on the left. That's not even a debatable thing, honestly.
But, anyway, judge, thank you very much. It's great to have you, as always. Everybody stay with us, much more ahead. Up next, a special announcement and a surprise announcement from Stephen Colbert about his show, The Late Night Show that is coming to an end. Some Democrats now say they think that this is all political and they want answers. We'll discuss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, serious announcement from a late night host comedian, Stephen Colbert.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT" HOST: Before we start the show, I want to let you know something that I found out just last night. Next year will be our last season. The network will be ending "The Late Show" in May. And yeah, I share your feelings. It's not just the end of our show, but it's the end of "The Late Show" on CBS. I'm not being replaced. This is all just going away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The move, as you can hear, drew surprise and anger from his audience and from Democratic lawmakers, too, who are now demanding answers. In a statement, Senator Elizabeth Warren said the cancellation came just three days after the host slammed CBS's owner Paramount for its settlement with Trump and called it a deal that looked like bribery.
But in their own statement, CBS called it purely financial, a decision against a challenging backdrop in late night. It is not related in any way to the show's performance content or other matters happening at Paramount.
Elie Honig is back with us at the table. I guess it's not surprising that people don't buy it to a degree, but really because of the history here with Trump and these media companies and their desire to not get on his bad side and also their history of paying him.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, two initial reactions to this. Number one, what on earth is Congress doing wasting their time on this?
UNKNOWN: Amen.
HONIG: CBS is a private industry. If they want to give AOC the show, God bless them. If they want to go Fox News, God bless them. They're private.
PHILLIP: Right.
HONIG: That's First Amendment. Congress -- if Democrats -- if Elizabeth Warren, they go down this road, what an utter waste of --
(CROSSTALK) SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You don't know why they're mad about it? Who was even on the show tonight? Adam Schiff. These shows --
UNKNOWN: It's Democrats.
JENNINGS: -- Colbert --
HONIG: Wait.
JENNINGS: -- and the rest of have become nothing but anti-Trump fever swap (inaudible) with Dem guests every single --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me ask you but -- Elie, Elie, let me ask you --
HONIG: There's a legal --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- let me ask you a follow up question. Let me ask you a follow up question. Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The reason Elizabeth Warren is asking about this, I take your point, I think you're right about can they cancel a show? Absolutely. But she was asking previously about the reports of a settlement with Trump in order to approve their -- their merger.
HONIG: Yeah.
PHILLIP: And she has suggested that that was bribery, that they basically agreed publicly to pay a certain amount of money to his, you know, his presidential library and perhaps privately to, you know, dedicate advertising money to his causes. And she suggests that maybe that's bribery.
HONIG: So, this was the second point I was going to. If we look at that settlement, the "60 Miinutes" settlement, the most ridiculous defamation lawsuit, the most ridiculous settlement I can remember hearing of. I mean, you don't, first of all, even have a defamation claim if CBS edited an interview of someone you don't like -- Kamala Harris, his electoral opponent, to make her look better.
[22:35:05]
You don't -- you don't even have a basis to walk in the front door of the courthouse for that. Rather than fight it, CBS caved and paid the $16 million. They, 1000 percent would have won that lawsuit if they fought it. Now, why and what the motivations were? Was there some sort of quid pro quo? Nobody knows at this point. So, so I stand by both of those things. Congress needs to find better things to do than worry about who's got "Late Night. But it was a ridiculous settlement, too. TOURE, "TRUTH TALKS" PODCAST HOST: Much as I would love to join any
Trump pile-on that anybody wants to make, I really think that this is financial. I really do believe CBSD model of putting on a very expensive show at 11:30 P.M. where the host is making eight figures and there's a large team. The current model of television does not support that.
And they are not making enough money over the long term to support having -- so, the next step -- and I am sure that Colbert knew this was coming when he made that statement. So, he made that statement because he knew this was coming. But the next step --
PHILLIP: Well, he said he found out the night before.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
TOURE: That's what he said. But you --
PHILLIP: Which -- and look. I --
TOURE: You can't pull the plug on --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: -- gigantic --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But that's, I think that's the thing. I don't know, right? Like, I don't know, but you don't know. And I don't know that he would have said I found out about this last night if he didn't find out about it last night.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: But the next step is Fallon and Kimmel. And I don't wish any of these people --
PHILLIP: Right.
TOURE: -- ill at all. I like all of them.
PHILLIP: There are these broad trends in music that are --
TOURE: These big shows, these late night shows --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
TOURE: -- are going --
(CROSSTALK)
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW" HOST: Abby, there's one massive part of the conversation that's been completely omitted from this. And that is when you do a show that attacks half of America every night and you don't have conservatives on, and by the way, you're not funny, but attacking half of America and your ratings suck, you might lose your show.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: There's a lot of -- there's a lot of reasons why the Colbert -- but there's a lot of reasons why the Colbert ratings are not working out that have nothing to do with the political divide you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Bu t it's constant. He's having on Democrats to trash Trump. He is constantly trashing conservatives. He referred to Donald Trump as a Nazi lover in 2017. So -- so --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: That does make half of the country happy.
FERGUSON: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: But you don't need to have the whole country watching your show.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: You only need half the country. That's a great show.
FERGUSON: But the problem is, he wasn't funny anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Here's the corollary to what you're saying, like the other side of it, is that, you know, there are shows that I will not name that spend half their time attacking liberals, or attack -- all their --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: all their time attacking liberals and -- and it doesn't have any impact on their ratings whatsoever. So, to Toure's point --
FERGUSON: He hates guys like us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, to Toure's point, I don't necessarily think that's really on the ratings front. I don't really think that that's really what matters.
(CROSSTALK) TOURE: The real problem is more like Netflix and the reasons why the democratization of the entire television landscape, there are so many more options for people to watch. That's going to cut into a late night --
FERGUSON: And that can be part of it, but let's go back to it. You have a guy that does a show that's funnier on cable that gets bigger ratings and they had warnings.
PHILLIP: That's extremely debatable.
FERGUSON: No, it's not. It's not debatable.
JENNINGS: He's number one.
FERGUSON: He's number one. He's number one.
PHILLIP: The funny part is what I'm talking about.
FERGUSON: Well, but you don't maybe like him because he actually, like, crashed with us.
PHILLIP: The reason I say it's debatable is because every human being in the United States of America has a right to decide what they find is funny. And if half of America likes Colbert and half of America likes Gutfeld, that's fine in the United States of America.
FERGUSON: I'm okay with that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's okay. But my point is the reason why they got canceled is because he was no longer funny and he was attacking half the country.
TOURE: That's not what's going on at all. We watching --
FERGUSON: Then why is the show getting canceled?
TOURE: I just explained. We are witnessing the end of an American television institution. It doesn't make enough money.
FERGUSON: Another one is growing.
JENNINGS: Colbert -- Colbert will forever be known as the person who frittered away David Letterman's legacy, which is something. But I -- may I bring everyone together? I think you're both right. I think your conversation about the television model is correct. I think your points about the conservative, you know, anti-conservative -- Ben is correct.
But I would just submit this is not even the most important media story of the day. They're voting right now on the House floor to defund PBS and NPR. And to me, late night shows going away versus what the Republicans are finally doing after all these years, it might actually be a more important story than all the people who are in mourning over Stephen Colbert -- (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Listen, I agree that defunding public television is a big story and it's way beyond politics because there are a lot of things on public television that have absolutely nothing to do with politics and that all gets destroyed and torn down, as well. So, you're right.
But you know, everything being filtered through this sort of right -- righty, lefty frame, I think is really actually a sad statement on where we are as a country. Like kids watching "Sesame Street" really don't care about your politics.
[22:40:00]
And they're going to get affected by some of this, too.
FERGUSON: I would say it's Letterman and Leno did a much better job of having on George Bush and then having on Bill Clinton. They actually did a better job.
TOURE: It was a different time then. It was a different time.
FERGUSON: But my -- it doesn't -- my point is if you stop doing it and there are people like me that just, don't even care. I don't even know when the show's on. That's how irrelevant it is because once he hate -- once it was so clear how much sustain he had for conservatives and it wasn't fun anymore, you're going to lose your show.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, listen. I really don't.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: It has nothing to do with politics. I have explained this over and over.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I honestly, I'm with Toure on this one. I mean, I think you can, I think it's a little speculative -- the Elizabeth Warren of it all, but there's no question that the direction of linear television is going in a certain place. So, that is the -- by far, probably one of the bigger factors. Can I give you a quick last word?
ADRIENNE ELROD, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER AND SENIOR SPOKESPERSON, HARRIS 2024 CAMPAIGN: Yeah, I was just going to say, I think we also can't ignore the fact all the politics or not politics aside that there is a big sky dance paramount potential merger in from the FCC right now. So, this does feel a little speculative that perhaps this has something to do with that after the "60 Minutes" situation. But we'll see.
PHILLIP: All right. Well, hopefully we get a little bit more reporting on what's going on there. Elie Honig, great to have you here as always. Thank you very much. Next for us, the White House reveals the reason for the President's swollen ankles and some other lapses are raising questions about his cognitive health. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the president's health. The White House says Donald Trump has been diagnosed with a benign condition that causes leg swelling. After pictures showed his swollen ankles, the White House also blamed excessive handshaking for the bruises that you see there on his hand. But when it comes to the President's cognitive health, Karoline Leavitt refused to address some of the apparent memory lapses over the last few days, including this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's a terrible -- he's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him, but they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It was actually Trump who appointed Jerome Powell in 2017, not Biden. Then, there's also this story that Trump told about his uncle and the Unabomber.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My uncle was at MIT, one of the great professors. Kaczynski was one of his students. Do you know who Kaczynski was? There's very little difference between a madman and a genius. But Kaczynski, I said, what kind of a student was he, Uncle John, Doctor John Trump? He said, what kind of a student? Man, he said, seriously good. He said he'd go around correcting everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: There's a major flaw in that little story. Ted Kaczynski went to Harvard in Michigan, not MIT. And despite that, the White House wasn't entertaining the inquiry at all.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Nevertheless, the President's uncle did, in fact, teach at MIT. He was a very intelligent professor. The President's very proud of his family. In fact, I have -- or the President has a letter from his uncle on the MIT letterhead that sits in the Oval Office dining room. Maybe we'll let you see it sometime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Nice try? Look, beyond that, I mean, I think his uncle died like 10 years before the Unabomber was even a thing. So, this whole thing is a little bizarre. And if this were Joe Biden, I think you would be screaming from the rooftops right now.
JENNINGS: Well, Joe Biden said his uncle was eaten by cannibals. So, I guess we'll have to compare. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That -- there's that, too. Absolutely. I mean, talk -- talk to me about it. I mean, are you -- what --why is that more concerning than what has happened this week? He didn't even remember appointing his own Fed chair?
JENNINGS: Here's -- here's my view of the medical situation of this President versus the last one. This President has a doctor who is issuing very transparent letters about this President's health. The former president has a doctor who's taking the Fifth Amendment before Congress right now because he doesn't want to answer questions about it. I've been around him. I have detected nothing. I've seen nothing but a man conducting six meetings at the same time.
PHILLIP: You sound like -- you sound like Joe Biden's aides who said, I've been around him, and --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Yeah, I'm not taking -- I'm not taking the Fifth Amendment back on this. I can tell you this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm just saying -- I'm just saying that -- that - -that from your -- by your own metric --
UNKNOWN: This is -- PHILLIP: -- by your own metric, if this were Joe Biden, and perhaps it was when he said his uncle was eaten by cannibals --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: He's working 20 hours a day and he does hours of press conferences every day.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Oh, wow -- wow. If he'd be working four hours a day --
JENNINGS: Abby, are you saying Donald Trump is not visible as president and is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, I --
JENNINGS: -- anywhere comparable to Biden's hiding for four years?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm not saying any of those things. I'm just asking why he didn't remember that he appointed the Fed chair in 2017 and stood in the Rose Garden with him and appointed him. Why didn't he remember that? FERGUSON: I think this might be the most fun nothing burger I've seen
in a while.
PHILLIP: Oh, yeah?
FERGUSON: Transparency from the White House saying that there is an issue and here it is. What? Thank goodness we've got that back, number one. Number two, no one's having to lie on his behalf and cover it up. They're not having to plan meetings around certain times when he's cognitive and then give him a nap time in the day and say, he works four hours a day. Donald Trump literally works 10, 12, 15, 18, 20 hours a day. Constantly --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Twenty hours a day? Twenty hours a day?
FERGUSON: Yes, there are days -- yes.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Twenty hours a day -- there's Kool Aid on the side of your mouth. I mean, are you serious?
JENNINGS: He tweets all-night-long. Do you not see it?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think that all of those things are kind of irrelevant to the central question which is --
(CROSSTALK)
[22:50:00]
PHILLIP: What explains -- what explains --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Throughout the time that we have seen him on the public stages, this is not the most intelligent person we have. This is not the best analyst of information.
FERGUSON: You mean --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: He does not have a lot of information at his fingertips as far is things that he knows. So, if there is a cognitive problem --
JENNINGS: Have you ever met him?
TOURE: I actually have met him. I met him at the White House. Actually --
JENNINGS: Did you converse with him? TOURE: Yes, I met him at the White House.
FERGUSON: Joe Biden and I are nowhere to go.
ELROD: Okay.
FERGUSON: That's the truth. That's who the president was and they're all taking The Fifth because they all covered it up.
PHILLIP: Hang on. Hang on.
FERGUSON: That's much bigger story.
ELROD: You're going to be surprised -- you're going to be surprised by what I'm going say here. Here's what I'm going to say. I'm going to say that I don't think it's anything new that Donald Trump has occasionally made some gaffes when he had said things. I do think it's concerning that he does not remember appointing Jerome Powell to the Fed.
But I think when he gets out there sometimes on -- on the stage and starts meandering and telling telling -- telling these stories that don't necessarily meet at the end like he's been doing that for a long time. So, I don't know that I'd -- this is anything that's different. What I do think is likely unusual is that they actually put out a statement addressing his -- the swelling that he has on his legs?
FERGUSON: Transparency.
ELROD: But they have not always done that. They have not always been forthcoming about his health.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ELROD: So, I thought that was --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: When -- when?
PHILLIP: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on a second.
TOURE: He supposedly got shot in the ear. We never --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: -- on his doctors --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Guys, we got to go. If you all stop screaming at the table maybe I can actually respond.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Abby --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Supposedly.
FERGUSON: That's where we are.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He was -- hold on a second. Hold on a second. Toure, he was shot in the ear.
TOURE: Thank you for --
PHILLIP: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay. Part two. Part two.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: We would always here from his doctors --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: From his doctors. Did we hear from his doctors? Scott.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGHS: I mean --
PHILLIP: Scott, did we hear from his doctors?
JENNINGS: I mean, all I know is l went to the Republican National Commission and he had --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: That would be no. That would be no.
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: -- a bandage on his ear. He had blood on his face.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me just -- hold on a second, guys.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Toure, gentlemen, just one second. I think that is -- this is like a total off the, you know. This is not what really what we're talking about. Because one of the reasons he released this information is because there were photos of his swelling. There were photos of his hand. They kind of had to say something at some point. And look, it's a benign condition. He is fine.
FERGUSON: Right.
PHILLIP: It's just a function, frankly, of being an older person.
FERGUSON: I talked to a doctor today. Really --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That part, the physical part is not --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I talked to a doctor today.
PHILLIP: -- something that -- we're not debating whether or not he has this vein condition. But the question is, why will the White House not explain his inability to remember a thing that he experienced that he did as president --
JENNINGS: He misspoke.
FERGUSON: He misspoke.
PHILLIP: No. He did not -- he did not misspeak. He said -- he said, I don't know who appointed this guy. It was Biden. He appointed the guy. Okay. There's that. On the question of whether Donald Trump has a lot of knowledge, I think he does have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things. But there are a lot of things he doesn't have knowledge about. He sat in front of African leaders from Liberia and asked them how they know English. I learned about Liberia when I was in grade school. So --
JENNINGS: Did he -- did he get shot or not? You're saying you think he didn't get shot?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott, I know that you want to revisit this issue.
JENNINGS: I think it's an important question. Are there still people that are truthers (ph) on this?
PHILLIP: Toure, did he get shot?
TOURE: I wasn't there. I don't know. I don't know. I would like to hear from his doctor.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Let me -- let me settle it. Donald Trump was shot in the ear. We did not hear from his doctors. That's all we have time for tonight, guys. Everyone, thank you very much. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:23]
PHILLIP: Hundreds of millions of fans attend live music events in the United States every year. They can be life-changing experiences, but they can also generate waste and pollution. Some of music's biggest names, like Billie Eilish, want to change that. CNN climate correspondent Bill Weir finds out how in an all-new episode of "The Whole Story".
(BEGIN VIDEP CLIP)
BILL WEIR, NN CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Billie Eilish immediately set out to bend the industry around her values. Haters and big oil companies be damned.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
BILLIE EILISH, SINGER, SONGWRITER AND MUSICIAN: Yeah, it was funny that that video really went kind of viral in the kind of, oh my God, "she-satanic world" which is really funny to me because I was like, no, no, you guys. This is a metaphor for climate change. I'm a bird falling into a thing of oil. Like, that's kind of the whole point.
I have been trying to change the way that the industry has been running for a really long time, so, for like food, backstage, all of my catering is vegan. Yeah, we have like refillable water stations. We don't sell like plastic water bottles. And I have like a no idling policy for all the trucks, you know, to save all those -- all those fossil fuels.
WEIR: Yeah. And save your lungs.
EILISH: Save your lungs.
WEIR: And all of your fans.
EILISH: Yeah, it's --
WEIR: It's leading by example, sort of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Don't miss an all-new episode of "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper". It airs Sunday at 8 P.M. Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN. And thank you for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
