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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
CNN Obtains Never Before Published Pics Of Trump And Epstein; Trump's DOJ Requests Meeting With Epstein's Co-Conspirator; Trump Baselessly Accuses Obama Of Treason To Distract; "NewsNight" Panelists Debate On Colbert Late Night Show Cancellation; U.S. Housing Faces Affordability Crisis. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 22, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, whatever's in those Epstein files, Donald Trump really doesn't want to talk about it.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's sort of a witch hunt.
PHILLIP: So, why is his personal lawyer turned-justice official suddenly so eager to talk to Epstein's co-conspirator?
Plus --
TRUMP: Barack Hussein Obama, this was treason.
PHILLIP: In an effort to avoid the files, the president goes full autocrat.
TRUMP: Whether it's right or wrong, it's time to go after people.
PHILLIP: Plus, Republicans love cancel culture again.
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE LATE NIGHT SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT: Go (BLEEP) yourself.
PHILLIP: The MAGA king fantasizes about who's next and brags about getting companies to kneel.
And Trump's giveaway goody bad gets heavier as his approval numbers get deeper.
Live at the table, Kevin O'Leary, Ana Kasparian, Brad Todd and Keith Boykin.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America's talking about, distract, deflect, divert anything to shift the focus away from Donald Trump's growing Jeffrey Epstein crisis. For weeks now, Trump has tried to distance himself from the convicted sex offender as the saga has exploded. But now CNN has exclusively rediscovered photos of Trump and Epstein that shed new light on their relationship. Here is one of them. It shows Epstein attending Trump's wedding to Marla Maples in 1993.
Now, we should note this is the first time that it has been reported that Trump invited Epstein to the nuptials. CNN also found this photo showing Trump with two of his young children talking to Epstein at the opening of the Harley Davidson Cafe in New York in October 1993. And then there is the video from 1999 at a Victoria's Secret fashion show in New York.
In a statement to CNN, the White House communications director said, quote, these are nothing more than out of context frame grabs of innocuous videos and pictures of widely attended events to disgustingly infer something nefarious. The fact is the president kicked him out of his club for being a creep.
Now, here is Jeffrey Epstein's brother talking to Erin Burnett tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK EPSTEIN, JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S BROTHER: He's trying to cover his butt. I mean, look, I understand people trying to distance themselves from Jeffrey because of what he was charged with and the circumstances he found himself in. I understand that, you know? But I know that they were good friends and I witnessed it myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat at the table is former Federal Prosecutor Temidayo Aganga-Williams. Temidayo, the other thing that occurred today was that a top Justice Department official decided to go to Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator who is in prison for similar crimes. And I don't know, I mean, I'm not sure what he's trying to get, but how unusual is it for that to even happen?
TEMIDAYO AGANGA-WILLIAMS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: So, this is just any top official, right? This is the DAG, the deputy attorney general, whose day-to-day job is second in command of Department of Justice, and he really runs the Department of Justice. The attorney general handles the political components. He handles the day-to-day. He's not typically doing any investigative work. So, it's bizarre that he would go down to conduct an interview. That's what's done by line assistance, and this is the case that was prosecuted long ago.
I expect if there was productive information, credible information that she had, her lawyers would've attempted or already to use that to her benefit. The fact that they hadn't suggested me that there isn't, and this really is a political show as opposed to doing what Department of Justice policy course. PHILLIP: And let's keep in mind, this is President Trump's former personal lawyer, okay? So, this is somebody who worked for the president at a time when the president is trying to distance himself from Jeffrey Epstein, even though it is well-documented that they were close friends. And even this idea that he was kicked out of the club because of the charges that were brought against him, there's reporting from The Washington Post years ago that suggests that there was another reason. It was a prime property on Palm Beach Island that pitted the two men against each other, according to the Post, a six- acre ocean front estate with 180-degree view of the Atlantic.
[22:05:03]
15 years ago, they squared off over that Palm Beach mansion, but it was after that months later that local police began investigations into Epstein and whether he was sexually abusing minors.
So, they're trying to act as if there's not a relationship here when there definitely was, and at the same time, Trump's deputy attorney general, former personal lawyer, is going to Ghislaine Maxwell to -- I don't know. I mean, is it to find out new information or to get her to side with them in terms of trying to prevent some of these documents from being released?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think these photos from the pre-internet era have convicted Donald Trump of actually being a socialite in New York City. That's about all I can conclude from them, and that Jeffrey Epstein also was a socialite in New York City. And I think most people in the country are going to find that fairly unpersuasive it.
Ms. Maxwell is going to probably end up testifying before the House Oversight Committee. Tim Burchett, a member of Congress from Tennessee, passed on a voice vote subpoena to bring her there. So, the Department of Justice, going to question her again, I think, is probably not in the world's worst idea since she's going to be on the stand in Congress here pretty soon.
PHILLIP: But why would they want to question her again when she's already been questioned and convicted?
TODD: Well, I think right now you see a lot of people who are in the president's political orbit. I don't -- I think they're self-appointed influencers more than anything else are demanding that he release information. He's told Pam Bondi she should release everything she can. So, I think this is them doing their due diligence. Todd Blanchard has been in the Justice Department for a very short amount of time.
I agree, it is normally a kind of a thing a line attorney would do, but you can't, on one hand, say this is a high-profile thing, the president should be doing more, oh, now he shouldn't have sent his top deputy attorney general.
KEITH BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: Well, why did he wait until the last minute to do this? I mean, if they really cared about the Epstein files, they could have done this a long time ago, but they chose to do it now because Trump is under pressure. And the idea that he's just a socialite in New York City is preposterous. He appears seven times in the Epstein fight logs. Epstein described Donald Trump as one of his closest friends. And Trump said that Epstein himself was a terrific guy who liked women on the younger side. Not to mention The Wall Street Journal report about the naked drawings for his birthday.
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: He's only one solution, we got to get Epstein back, oh damn, he's still dead. Oh my goodness.
BOYKIN: You know, that's offensive, Kevin, because even though he's dead, but he is --
O'LEARY: He is not coming back. He's dead.
BOYKIN: He's even though he dead, there are real women and girls, real women and girls who suffered because --
O'LEARY: They should not (INAUDIBLE) everything else pointed out.
PHILLIP: What's the point, Kevin? Can I ask --
BOYKIN: Don't minimize this by joking about the fact that he's dead.
O'LEARY: I'm not joking. He's dead.
BOYKIN: Yes, but this is --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Let me try to understand. So, what's the point? What are you trying to say?
O'LEARY: The point is it's irrelevant now. It doesn't matter. Bring Epstein out --
PHILLIP: So, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What exactly is irrelevant?
O'LEARY: Tell me how this affects the average American tomorrow morning.
ANA KASPARIAN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND HOST, THE YOUNG TURKS: I can tell you.
O'LEARY: Help me. Help me realize some person struggling to feed their kids, put their child in college. Who gives a --
PHILLIP: Is it possible that there's --
(CROSSTALKS)
KASPARIAN: I'd be happy to.
O'LEARY: Thank goodness you're here.
KASPARIAN: So, look, I think everything that has currently transpired, okay, in regard to Trump's reaction to releasing the Epstein files, the fact that the House of Representatives is going to their five-week break early just to avoid having to vote --
O'LEARY: Bring it home. It's not important yet. Bring it home.
KASPARIAN: No.
O'LEARY: Tell me why it's important.
KASPARIAN: Well, let me finish, okay?
O'LEARY: And I'm working with you.
KASPARIAN: There's a lot of smoke that leads people to believe that there are all sorts of questionable people that might be tied to the government, in the government, and people want to know whether or not they're literally pedophiles who abused women, or girls, I should say --
O'LEARY: Put it out there.
TODD: So, Merrick Garland should have released it?
KASPARIAN: Absolutely.
TODD: Yes, Merrick Garland.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Well, if I could just add, just to bring it back to what DOJ normal policy would be, when DOJ conducts an investigation, you don't release those investigative files. It's not open to the public. Why? Because you don't want to name someone who cannot defend themselves in a court of law. That's not provable evidence yet. Here --
O'LEARY: The dead guy?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: No. It means, for example, if you interview someone, there's something called FBI 302. You might interview a witness. He says, I saw John Doe do X, Y, Z. If the government releases that information about John Doe, John Doe can't defend himself in a court of law. That's typical DOJ policy here. But if you want something about a file that's going to be interesting, it's not going to be interviewing someone who's convicted. It's going to be looking about an investigative file, seeing what those agents uncovered in interviews, seeing the evidence is in that file.
O'LEARY: Looking for what specifically?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: I'm not the one asking for the information either way. All I'm saying is if you want to know what's interesting about this case for any federal investigation, it's going to be more expansive than grand jury transcripts. It's going to be by both this FBI agents doing this conducted.
[22:10:00]
BOYKIN: Well, let me step back for a second. The reason why we --
PHILLIP: Here's why you're confused by this.
BOYKIN: Yes.
PHILLIP: Listen.
O'LEARY: I'm not confused at all.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, you seem to quite --
O'LEARY: Put out all the files.
PHILLIP: Because here's the thing. Listen. In the world, people can hold multiple ideas at the same time. One, they can care about their financial wellbeing, and, two, they can also care whether or not there are people who maybe should be prosecuted who participated in a scheme to abuse young girls. Those are both legitimate things.
O'LEARY: We can split that. We determine what they did.
PHILLIP: Both are legitimate things to care about. And that's the question at hand. I think there's a separate question, which is, in this moment, should everything be released? I think Temidayo makes a case that there's a good policy that would say probably not, but Donald Trump is the one who wanted them released until he became president.
BOYKIN: Thank you.
PHILLIP: That's the problem.
TODD: Wait a minute, though, Abby, if you're going to talk about hypocrisy, House Democrats have gummed up the Rules Committee this week and refused to let anything be considered to be brought to the House floor except this. These are the same Democrats who were wholly uninterested in this case for the last four years, wholly uninterested.
PHILLIP: There are plenty of Republicans -- there are plenty of Republican --
(CROSSTALKS)
KASPARIAN: Unless this would devolve into another like partisan nonsense story, because this is deeper than that. This is really deeper than that.
TODD: House Democrats won't let us move to immigration. They won't let us --
KASPARIAN: And there's a lot of smoke that makes this issue actually deeper.
TODD: Why weren't House Democrats --
KASPARIAN: Let me just finish my point, please, for the love of God. Let's please just -- TODD: You have your --
KASPARIAN: First of all, you have Alex Acosta, Alex Acosta, who prosecuted Jeffrey Epstein and gave him a sweetheart deal. He told a reporter, I was told to back off because Jeffrey Epstein is intelligence. He was asked about that a second time and he wouldn't deny it. He wouldn't deny that he said that, which is interesting. Okay. Why were there cameras in the rooms where these girls were being trafficked? It was to obviously film these powerful elite men, you know, abusing girls and potentially use that as blackmail.
So, there is a concern that aside from the lack of justice for the victims in this case, there is a concern that maybe there was something deeper here. Maybe there was some institutional corruption that, you know, is part of this whole story. We don't know for sure and I think Americans who are really fired up about this story want to know if there was like a blackmail operation taking place. What was going on?
TODD: I'm with you. I'm with you. Nobody's for Jeffrey Epstein, nobody's for his abusive girls, nobody's for human trafficking, nobody's for the Johns getting away with it. Why didn't it happen in the last four years?
KASPARIAN: I know. I know Democrats bad.
TODD: Why didn't happen? Why didn't? Just tell me.
KASPARIAN: Democrats don't care. Both are bad when it comes to this issue. They should release the details to the American people. I don't care which party.
BOYKIN: I can tell you why it happened, but part of it is that it's not the conspiracy you think it is. It's that Donald Trump is the one who made this a big issue. Donald Trump is the one who ran on he was going to release the files. Pam Bondi was the one who said the file -- the list was on her desk in February and now it suddenly doesn't exist. It was the Trump MAGA machine that made this an issue.
The Democrats never made it an issue, but now that we see that Trump has come out there and refused --
TODD: Now they think it could hurt Trump then they'd want to make --
BOYKIN: No. Now that we see that Trump has refused to produce the evidence that he claimed to produce, it's another example of dishonesty and lack of transparency for this administration.
O'LEARY: This is an important issue.
TODD: No, it's not.
BOYKIN: No. You know what, and going back to that --
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me ask Temidayo one more thing -- Kevin, just a second. Let me ask Temidayo Timo one more thing. Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney after they had that -- they reached out to her, said that they confirmed the discussion, but he also said, we're grateful to President Trump for his commitment to uncovering the truth in this case.
I'm just curious, what is your reaction to a statement like that coming from somebody who is in prison already charged, convicted, you know, all of that, for this crime? I mean, he must think, it seems like, that there's something positive coming out of this at the end for his client.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: The words that come to mind is quid pro quo. I think it's tough to look at the situation and think you're likely to get credible information from someone who's currently serving a 20-year sentence, information that she did not provide to line federal prosecutors who were actually prosecuting her under the Biden administration. So, I think what I would suspect is that there's suggestion there that the one person standing between her and perhaps freedom is President Trump.
And that must bring it to question anything that comes out of these interviews, especially when conducted by the president's handpicked former lawyer who now, instead of doing his day job, running the Department of Justice, is interviewing someone who's already been prosecuted and has every incentive to put forward information that lacks credibility.
PHILLIP: All right, to be continued. Let's hit pause on this conversation because Barack Obama is pushing back hard against Trump tonight after Trump accused him of treason.
Plus, the president's claims that there's more money in his deal with Paramount as he teases more comedians being canceled after Colbert. Stand by.
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: As the pressure over Jeffrey Epstein mounts, Donald Trump today seemed to snap. He baselessly accused former President Obama of treason over the Russia investigation. Then he had this threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: After what they did to me, and whether it's right or wrong, it's time to go after people.
The leader of the gang was President Obama, Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him?
He's guilty. It's not a question, you know, I like to say let's give it time. It's there. He's guilty. They -- this was treason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: A spokesperson for Obama said, quote, these bizarre allegations are ridiculous and a weak attempt at distraction, and adds, nothing in the document issued last week undercuts the widely accepted conclusion that Russia worked to influence the 2016 presidential election, but did not successfully manipulate any votes.
That was actually not really a thing that was in question. That conclusion that they did not manipulate any votes is something we have all known. So, what is Donald Trump talking about?
O'LEARY: You know, I think it's a bigger 30,000-foot narrative about the Democratic Party. The old guard's equity, their value, Obama, Schumer, Pelosi, I think their equity is down 50, 60 percent now. I don't think these people are going to matter in the next cycle, and I think Trump's taken a stab at it. It doesn't really matter. This is kind of an irrelevant narrative.
I think the Democratic Party is a real -- it can't -- as an investor, I almost want to buy into their stock now. They couldn't be worse. This stock is zero. And you almost think if you're going to have some kind of balance by the midterms, they got to figure -- Obama's an irrelevant guy now.
PHILLIP: Yes. But he's accusing a former president of treason, and on top of that, saying it, it may not be right, but I'm going to go after them anyway. What is he talking about and what kind of country are we living in if that is actually what he's doing?
TODD: Well, first off, I thought the key part about President Obama's quote was that the Russians did not actually manipulate any votes.
PHILLIP: Yes, we knew that already.
TODD: If you -- oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. In the immediate aftermath of the 2016 election, you could hardly find a Democrat who was not screaming that Russia rigged the election.
PHILLIP: It has been eight years since immediate aftermath of the 2016 election.
TODD: The fact that Obama is now undoing the Democrat mythology of 2016 is pretty notable.
PHILLIP: As you know, there have been multiple reports, there have been bipartisan -- there's been a major bipartisan Senate report that was led by Marco Rubio, who now works in Donald Trump's administration, we have known for many years that the Russians did not manipulate the votes, okay?
TODD: Right. Not that they didn't even influence votes. They've had intentions of meddling in the election.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, again -- BOYKIN: Oh my God. Why are we talking about this? This is not the issue. You're trying to avoid the subject.
TODD: President Obama said that Russia did not manipulate votes. We should note that. Because every liberal in America said that was the case.
BOYKIN: You were doing everything possible not to talk about the fact that the president of the United States, the current president of the United States, just accused a former president of treason and suggested a prosecution of that former president with no evidence. That is the problem.
TODD: You can calm down.
BOYKIN: That's the problem. No, I'm not going to calm down.
TODD: I don't think he'll be prosecuted.
BOYKIN: But why are you talking about that instead of talking about Obama?
TODD: Because Obama just (INAUDIBLE) three years of Democrat mythology.
BOYKIN: See, you --
KASPARIAN: What?
BOYKIN: Please, let's not talk about this. I don't want to talk about your distractions. The problem is, this is what Trump does. He distracts everybody. He's talking about President Obama because he doesn't want to talk about Epstein. He's talking about the Washington Commanders and the Cleveland Guardians, because he doesn't want to talk about Epstein. He releases the Martin Luther King files because he doesn't want to talk about Epstein. He's doing everything possible except talking about Jeffrey Epstein because he's trying to throw up distraction so the people like you, Todd, can come on T.V. and try to diffuse the issue.
TODD: Keith, I have tried to agree with you and you're violently not letting me.
BOYKIN: I'm not doing anything violent.
TODD: I've said he shouldn't. He's not guilty of treason. He shouldn't be prosecuted.
BOYKIN: Then please --
TODD: I've tried to --
PHILLIP: So, Brad, is this a distraction or not? Because it sure seems --
TODD: I think he's entitled to be a little chapped at the way the Department of Justice treated him and spied on him during the 2016 campaign. I think he's entitled to that. I think he's entitled to be chapped at the way the Democrats said his victory wasn't legitimate for his entire first term.
BOYKIN: Meaning you try to agree with me?
TODD: No. I think he's entitled to be chapped over the fact that Democrats tried to impeach him and tried to undo what was legitimately done by the voters. So, yes, President Trump gets a right to pitch a bit of a fit.
BOYKIN: He did not get the right to call for -- call a former president treason and suggest the prosecution of that former president?
TODD: I said that. I say for a third time, I'm going to say for a third time, he should not say he is guilty of treason.
BOYKIN: Then let's focus on that issue.
PHILLIP: Temidayo, your thoughts on this, because this feels like, just an attempt to retread, but not even a very good one. Because it's almost like they're mad about sloppy media headlines and not the actual I.C. conclusion or the Senate Intelligence report findings of what actually happened in the 2016 election.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Yes, Abby. I think the -- what's jarring to me about this claim of treason is what another norm ship we've had, right? Treason has a very specific deposition in our Constitution. And in some, it's basically, you know, you're taking arms against United States.
And we've seen that before, and we've seen that recently. We saw that on January 6th.
[22:25:00]
We saw Americans take up arms against their government. We saw Americans try to attack cops, to try to kill sitting members of Congress. We've seen that, right? We've seen something that is more akin to taking up your arms. And what happened with those individuals? They were pardoned.
So, I think it is it belies any kind of credibility to hear, use their term treason when we've had certain individuals in this country who stood by those and given aid and comfort to those who have taken up or against arms against a country. And that troubles me a lot more than this kind of, you know, fake narrative we're seeing here.
KASPARIAN: I just think it's really funny how when it came to releasing the Epstein files, one of the arguments you heard from Trump, who, by the way, what would Trump be if he isn't perpetually chapped? He's always chapped about something. He's got the thinnest skin ever. But, anyway, you know, he talked about how, oh, Epstein's old news. Why do you care about Epstein? Okay, yes, you're right. So, why don't we focus on some trumped up nonsense prosecution of Obama, on Russia and Russia gate.
Like I just -- it's so clearly a distraction. And I just want to quickly mention Tulsi Gabbard, head of the DNI, who, you know, came out and like, oh, this is a bombshell, look what I found. No new evidence, no new nothing, and she's trying to ingratiate herself with Trump, who had soured on her after she had told the truth about Iran's lack of nuclear weapons.
PHILLIP: And it is working because Trump just a month ago -- Trump a month ago said that Gabbard was off message and sources told us she was out of favor. Now, today, he says she's the hottest one in the room right now after these allegations on the Russia probe.
O'LEARY: A little reality, please, just a moment of reality. So, you're an American. You're at home in Champaign Urbana, Illinois, right now, and you are creating 70 percent of the jobs with your family business, 5 to 500 employee businesses, and here we are debating how many ferries are on the top of this pin. I swear to you, I guarantee you, because I am their advocate, they don't give you know what.
And so we can talk about this until the cows come home. Think this is not on top of mind of the American take care of business.
(CROSSTALKS)
BOYKIN: Tell that to Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: You're talking to the wrong folks, Kevin.
BOYKIN: He's the one who's making this an issue. He's the one who's talking about all these irrelevant things.
O'LEARY: I'm just telling you --
BOYKIN: Why don't you take this message to the Oval Office, Kevin? You have access to the president. Tell Donald Trump to stop talking about these diversions.
O'LEARY: You're not a fan of Trump at all.
BOYKIN: Yes, but go talk Donald Trump. You think that we should be talking about more serious issues. Well, tell Donald Trump and stop talking about the Washington Commanders --
O'LEARY: Keith, I'm going to agree with Keith again.
BOYKIN: Tell Donald Trump.
O'LEARY: I'm going to agree with Keith again.
PHILLIP: I mean, look, I don't know why you would be yelling at Keith about this. To his point, it is Donald Trump who has brought up Obama.
TODD: Look, it's House Democrats too.
PHILLIP: It's Donald Trump who has made the Epstein story a story for over a week now.
All right, folks, Temidayo Aganga-Williams, thank you very much for joining us.
Up next for us, Donald Trump is predicting which comedians are next on the chopping block, as he's bragging about companies surrendering to him.
Plus, Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart say the gloves are now off, and another special guest is going to be with us at the table.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:54]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT" HOST: Donald Trump posted, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings. Go (BEEP) yourself.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A blistering message from Stephen Colbert to the President during his first night back since announcing that CBS is canceling the late show. Meanwhile, Donald Trump spent the day targeting Colbert's competitors, declaring on Truth Social that Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon are next on the chopping block, and taking early credit for their downfall.
Then Trump claimed that Paramount paid $16 million as part of its lawsuit settlement. And he even suggested that he is expecting an additional $20 million from its new owners. But for all that tough talk on cancellations, it's worth remembering that one of the biggest warriors against cancel culture was this guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: One of their political weapons is "cancel culture," driving people from their jobs, shaming dissenters, and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism.
The goal of "cancel culture" is to make decent Americans live in fear of being fired. The far left wants to coerce you into saying what you know to be false and scare you out of saying what you know to be true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at the table now is former Trump economic advisor Steve Moore and the author of the Trump Economic Miracle. Steve, welcome back to the show.
STEVE MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISER: Thank you.
PHILLIP: Trump says that forcing people out of their jobs for saying things that you don't agree with is the very definition of totalitarianism. Seems like he might be right about that?
MOORE: First of all, I hate to see Stephen Colbert go because people say I look like him and that's a great compliment to him. Listen, it's not right wingers who are -- who fired Stephen Colbert. It was the public who fired him, because you know what his ratings stink.
[22:35:01]
PHILLIP: That's not true.
MOORE: If you're reading stink --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But Steve --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- but I have -- OK, Steve, I got to correct you on that. His ratings did not stink.
MOORE: Here's the thing -- here's the thing I would say about --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: His ratings do not stink.
MOORE: I grew up in the era of Joan Rivers and Johnnie Carson. We used to listen and watch late-night TV all the time. You know why? Because it was funny. It was funny. How is it funny for, I mean, really, just this tells you a lot about culture, that Stephen Colbert comes up on the air and got --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can I suggest another reason why? Because you had a TV in every room.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: This was over a merger. This was over a merger.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Hold on. Let me just finish. He drops --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: This was over a merger. Keep it real.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: -- $40 million a year.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Hold on. Let me just --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: He drops -- do you think -- do you think --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: It is weaponizing -- it's weaponizing the anti-trust division of our federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: No, it's not.
KASPARIAN: Yes. Yes.
MOORE: What does that have to do with Stephen Colbert.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: In order to get rid of people who are critical of the most thin-skinned president in American history.
MOORE: Let me ask you a question. Do you think it's funny that -- that -- do you think it's funny that Stephen Colbert says --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: I don't watch Stephen Colbert. I know what's actually behind the firing. I know what's behind this firing, and I'm not going to buy any of his dumb gaslighting.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: These people want --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. Hang on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: He is a thin-skinned, pathetically sensitive president.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: -- just for a minute?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Everybody, hang on one second. Kevin, just give me one -- just a moment. Let me just -- let me just reset the table here for just a moment, OK? Because if we're going to hang this on ratings, Colbert was the highest rated of the shows in his time slot.
O'LEARY: Nothing to do with ratings.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, there's that. There's that. But secondly, I don't care if he's -- you don't think he's funny. I don't -- there are plenty of people I don't think are funny. I think the real question is, should the President of the United States be picking and choosing people who should have jobs based on whether they say nice things about him or not?
O'LEARY: No. He got fired before Trump said a word. Forty-six points --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Actually, Trump called for his firing last --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: Abby, let me finish with a very simple explanation.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: OK. Let me respond to what you said. Trump called for his firing last fall, just to be clear.
O'LEARY: OK. Let's talk about what actually happened. $46.2 million in losses on a franchise that's 40 years old. It's old, it's dead, and unfortunately for all of the category, people are geometrically not watching late night TV anymore.
UNKNOWN: That's true.
O'LEARY: Here's the problem for Colbert. His contract is a payout contract through a transaction where there's a change of control. Only a moron would tell the president to F off before he gets his check. OK? So, what's going to happen now, in my opinion, is tomorrow CBS, his boss, will fire him and they will litigate for the next five years his payout.
BOYKIN: Fire who? Stephen Colbert?
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: Oh, no.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: So now you're saying -- so now you're saying they're really going to fire him for saying mean things about the President?
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I want to go back to something --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: He will never get his check.
TODD: -- that Kevin just said. I buy media for campaigns around the country, for Senate races, for House races, for governor's races. The reason primetime late night comedy is in the line-up is to balance the female bias in primetime. Late night comedy was long the domain of the young male viewer. Actually, that made it the most Republican part -- day part in advertising. But since Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel have killed it. It is now the bluest part of -- of primetime tele -- night time television.
They have completely failed their one mission, which was to keep a broad audience and especially of younger men. Late night TV has become blue.
BOYKIN: I hate to tell you --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: That's not their job.
BOYKIN: I hate to tell you this, but people, and I know I'm on TV right now, but people aren't watching TV as much anymore these days. And it's a change. It's a -- that's been going on for decades now. It has nothing to do with Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel. But it's just a transition that's going on in the world.
But I don't like the idea, and I think you agree with me, too, Stephen. I don't like the idea of the President of United States picking who's funny and who's not. And I think I just heard you say, Stephen, that you don't think the President should be picking winners and losers, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: So, then how do you justify the fact that this president is essentially trying to do that?
MOORE: Yeah How?
BOYKIN: And he is the king of cancel culture even before this because the most obvious example I can think of is Colin Kaepernick. Before Donald Trump was this Donald Trump, he called for Colin Kaepernick to be fired from his job. He said, get that SOB off the field. And that's what happened. And Colin Kaepernick was blackballed from the San Francisco 49ers and from the NFL because of Donald Trump. That's "cancel culture". MOORE: There is one late night comedian who's really hot right now, and that's Bill Maher. And Bill Maher is funny. I mean, he takes shots at everybody. I think one of the problems, what's evolved --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, but he's not on -- he's not on a broadcast network.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: -- on a network -- that's HBO. He's got great ratings, he's very funny, he takes shots at everybody. I think the reason people sell stuff --
UNKNOWN: Network TV is different.
PHILLIP: Yeah, it is a very different --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: It is supposed to be broader. Network TV is supposed to be something that everyone can --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can I just play one more thing from -- this is where Stephen Colbert is, you know, he's now at this point, he said the gloves are off. He's slamming his own bosses for their decision to cancel his show. Listen.
[22:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLBERT: How -- how could it purely be a financial decision if "The Late Show" is number one in ratings? Over the weekend, somebody at CBS followed up their gracious press release with a gracious anonymous leak saying, "they pulled the plug on our show because of losses pegged between $40 million and $50 million a year." $40 million's a big number. I could see us losing $24 million, but where would Paramount have possibly spent the other $16 million? Oh, yeah.
(APPLAUSE)
COLBERT: Oh -- oh, yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'LEARY: That's not very funny. That's the problem with him. He's not funny. And by the way, if the CBS bosses don't want to whack him, I'll do it for them. I'd fire that guy in four seconds if I were running the show there. Gone. And then let him litigate for his cash if he's worth 20, 30, 40. Let him wait 12 years through litigation and hire his own lawyers. That guy is dumb.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: It is interesting that -- I mean it is interesting that --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: -- that like, Trump would fire him or want him fired because he's critical of Trump
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: No, it's not because of Trump. He just insulted his bosses. Like, what is this guy?
PHILLIP: Well, he does have power.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: Whack him, whack him.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He does have power --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on a second. He does have power in this equation because he knows that he is the public face of this network.
O'LEARY: Fifty percent of the public.
PHILLIP: Nobody knows who runs CBS, OK? No one knows.
UNKNOWN: I do.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: But everybody knows -- everybody knows Stephen Colbert and I do think that he's exercising a certain degree of power here by basically saying I know that this audience is on my side and he's saying what he thinks.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: He's playing the victim.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: He is a victim of Trump's thin-skin behavior. Like, he is a victim of that.
BOYKIN: Stephen Colbert came to prominence in 2006 when he went to the White House Correspondents' Dinner, and he trashed George Bush to his face and broke protocol for what the comedians are supposed to do at that event. This is just him repeating the same trick over and over.
TODD: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Great. Well, he's going to find out exactly how many people want to watch it, but it'll be at a much lower salary.
BOYKIN: OK, that's fine. But you know what? The point is, the bigger point is that whatever -- whatever CBS does, I don't agree with their decision, by the way, and I do know who the president of CBS is. But I do think that the President of the United States should butt out of this. And the reason why I wanted to bring this back to you is because Steve and I used to work together on CNBC.
And the one thing you used to always say is that the president, back when Obama was the president should never pick winners and losers. But this guy does nothing but pick winners and losers. I want you to stand up to him the way you stood up to Obama.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, we got to --
MOORE: He was --
PHILLIP: OK.
MOORE: Trump was responding to after he was fired but Trump wasn't the one who got him fired.
PHILLIP: OK. All right. And as I said, Trump -- Trump called for this firing many, many months ago.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: By the way, I just make -- I want to make sure that you don't get cancelled. That's all.
PHILLIP: Oh --
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Thank you, Stephen. All right. Coming up next for us, a surprise from the White House today involving the homes of Americans. We're going to debate a little economic policy next.
(COMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:37]
PHILLIP: Tonight, as Trump's approval numbers drop, his giveaway goodie bag is getting heavier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I want follow up on housing question.
TRUMP: Yeah.
UNKNOWN: We've got no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on Social Security. How important is it that we have no tax on home sales, capital gains, to unleash the housing market? TRUMP: Well, we're thinking about that, but we'd also unleash it just
by lowering the interest rates. If the Fed would lower the rates, we wouldn't even have to do that. But we are thinking about no tax on capital gains on houses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump was asked that lay-up of a question by none other than Brian Glenn, a reporter for Real America's Voice Network and one of the new media voices in the White House press pool. Should also be noted, Glenn is in a relationship with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who introduced a bill that would do just that, eliminate federal capital gains tax on home sales earlier this month.
As with all those things that Trump listed out, no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on Social Security. The devil is in the details and it's not really what he is saying. And this is just another thing added to a whole bunch of promises that he's making to the American people that, by the way, is not being paid for.
MOORE: Well, I'm an old flat tax guy. Broaden the base, lower the rates as much as possible. But I will say this. The one thing probably everybody at this table can agree on is we do have a housing problem in this country. And we need, you know, especially for people, like I have two sons that are in their early 30s. That's about the time when people start talking about buying a house. They can't -- they can't afford a house right now. Housing is so expensive.
So, this is one way you could maybe make housing more affordable, encourage older people to sell out. By the way, what I would do is I would index capital gains for inflation. Somebody who bought a house in the '70s for $100,000, that house is probably worth what, $500,000 today, and most of that gain was just due to inflation. So, we want to encourage, as we were talking about earlier, encourage people to sell their homes as they get older and free up housing for younger people. You can't raise a family if you can't buy a house.
PHILLIP: This is also just Trump promising things to promise things.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: Yes.
O'LEARY: This is option in many countries. Many countries in Europe, Canada, for example, primary residence, you get married, you're in your late 20s, you buy 950 square feet. Then you have a child, you need 2000 square feet. It lets them trade up cap gains free and they keep moving up as owners, which is the American dream in America.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, but the context.
[22:50:00]
Listen. I -- just the context for those who are keeping score, there is already an exemption. It's 250,000 for individuals, it's 500,000 for -- 500,000 for couples, which covers 90 percent of Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: So, let's punish the 10 percent.
PHILLIP: However, I do think -- I do think that Stephen --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: Let's punish them, Abby.
PHILLIP: No, no, no.
O'LEARY: Let's make sure the people who are successful get punished in America.
PHILLIP: Well, Kevin. I'm trying to have serious conversation.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: You don't think that we have gotten enough --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: -- from this administration. No tax on tips expired. No tax on overtime expired. It's all --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: Tax breaks for the rich -- tax breaks for the rich. Those are permanent.
O'LEARY: You mean the people that work like hell to become wealthy.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: No, no, the group that gets rewarded the most in this country are the rich.
O'LEARY: Let's punish them.
KASPARIAN: They're not punished.
O'LEARY: Let's make sure we punish them.
UNKNOWN: How are they rewarded?
KASPARIAN: You guys are -- you guys are doing real well. You talk about it this show on a regular basis, OK?
O'LEARY: I want to beat them up them --
KASPARIAN: How many -- how many cookies do you want in this administration?
(CROSSTALK) O'LEARY: Don't you ever try and get rich in America again.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Kevin --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hang on, Kevin -- Ana --
KASPARIAN: Imagine thinking the rich in America are the victims.
PHILLIP: What Ana's talking about, I think, is worthy of bringing to the table because the promises that are being made to the working class, no tax on tips, it's capped out at $25,000 a year, no tax on overtime, capped out at $12,500 a year, no tax on Social Security, not at all what is actually in the bill. It only applies to about half of Americans and the maximum annual deduction is $6000. So, it seems like for the working class people, there is a limit to how much the government is going to work for them. No limit though.
TODD: Wait a minute. I'm glad you brought that up because you just listed off three different benefits for working class Americans and every Democrat in Congress voted against them. Every one of them.
PHILLIP: OK.
TODD: Every single one of them.
PHILLIP: What about the promises that Trump is making to working class Americans and the degree to which it's a headline, but the details are not what he promised?
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: They're all expired.
TODD: They're all real tax cuts and they will need to be extended at a future date but they're all real tax cuts. They're all real tax cuts. But we should -- we should not let them be temporary. We should - hopefully, Democrats will help us extend them.
BOYKIN: But you passed the bill by yourself and you made the permit -- the tax cuts for the wealthy but you couldn't make -- couldn't take the time to make permit the tax cuts for --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: They're tax cuts for everyone.
BOYKIN: No, no, but these tax cuts -- the tax cuts --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: Wait a minute, minute. Let's go back. If you have a child, your child taxing credit was going to be cut in half without this bill. Your standard deduction was going to be cut in half without this bill. Those are working class tax, right, preferences.
BOYKIN: The point that Abby is making and the point that Ana was making earlier is that -- is that when you're talking about creating policy that's supposed to be representative of working class people, Kevin said he was a representative of working class people in the mid- West field a few minutes earlier. Now, he's suddenly the representative of the wealthy. You know, make -- pick a -- pick a lane, Kevin. What side are you on? It's not very clear to me.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: No, but this plan doesn't help ordinary homeowners. It helps people - if you have an ordinary home in the Hampton's maybe, but it doesn't help ordinary homeowners. And I agree with Stephen. If you're going to do this -- and I agree with the idea that Stephen is pointing out that we should be helping people, older people to leave the housing market and get younger people into it.
But if you're going to do it, as Abby was saying during the break, we were talking about this, why don't we do it so that we actually target it for older people, not just for everyone? That would make more sense.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: As I was trying to say to Kevin, I mean, I think there's a real conversation here about what you're talking about, which is the inflation aspect of it. This hasn't changed since the mid-'90s, so that's a fair argument.
And it's also a fair argument that it can be structured in a way that allows older people who've paid off their homes, they've had it for 30, 40 years, to not pay capital gains tax. But it's also not, I think it's just, we should understand it's not true that most Americans are not getting taxed on selling their primary residence. The vast majority of Americans are not.
BOYKIN: Only eight percent of homeowners does this apply to. You're benefiting the top eight percent, Kevin. That's who you're representing.
(CROSSTALK)
OLEARY: It's an artificial cap on the growth and the value of your home.
BOYKIN: Only eight percent of homeowners benefit from this. So, this is not about helping the working class, it's about helping the wealthy.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: In the 200 years we've never punished success in America.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: I'm not -- I'm not talking about punishing people.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYKIN: I'm talking about helping the -- if you want to help ordinary people, you said you wanted to be the representative of the working class people, why not --
O'LEARY: I am.
BOYKIN: Let's build more affordable housing.
KASPARIAN: Yes.
BOYKIN: Let's invest in creating opportunities for to become first time homeowners. Not just for people who have half million and one million dollar homes to sell their properties.
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: -- affordable housing in New York. We got a communist coming in that doesn't want to--
PHILLIP: OK.
BOYKIN: You don't even know the word "communist" if that's what you think.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All -- All right, all right my friends.
KASPARIAN: There'll be a lot more of communists trying to come in if we keep going in the direction of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Much more of this discussion for another day. But everyone, thank you very much for being here. Up next. CNN speaks with one of the executive producers of the Osborn's reality show after the death of the Prince of Darkness, Ozzy Osbourne. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:40]
PHILLIP: Before we go, a special programming note. Most summer Fridays, we are taking the show on a field trip. We'll be broadcasting our roundtable debate from the Food Network Kitchen. We have food, drinks, and some lively conversation. You don't want to miss it. And my debut book, A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power, it'll be released this fall on October 28th. And you can pre-order it now. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
