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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Mass Starvation Killing Scores of Gazans, Including Children; DOJ's #2 to Continue Talking With Epstein Accomplice Tomorrow. Trump Tries To Show Powell Some Funky Math; Trump Administration Approves Paramount And Skydance Merger. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, waiting for the world, dying while waiting. As the war rages on children in Gaza are starving to death. Why is the U.S. so silent?
Plus, Donald Trump's numbers hit the lowest of his sequel as allies say the quiet part out loud about the Epstein files.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): What we are simply wanting to do here is give him cover.
PHILLIP: Also, stare-down economics.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: But the 2.7 is now 3.1, and --
JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: I'm not aware of that.
PHILLIP: The president takes a field trip to a guy's workplace hoping he'll quit.
And critics call it a deal with the devil. South Park calls it a new episode.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you on the list or not? It's weird that whenever it comes up, you just tell everyone to relax.
PHILLIP: As Paramount gets into bed with Trump, one of its crown jewels rips off the covers.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Jemele Hill, Abel Maldonado, Kat Abughazaleh and Jeff Flake.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. I ask that you not look away from what you're about to see, as the U.S. and many in the west seem to be doing right now. In Gaza, hungry children are telling their parents they want to go to heaven, because at least heaven has food. Nearly two years into this war between Israel and Hamas, we've hit an inflection point tonight that pays no mind to politics, rhetoric, or religion. Gaza is on the brink of a famine.
As more Palestinians, particularly children are starving to death, parents are desperate and helpless to save their babies. Many are too young to voice their hunger, but it's spoken loudly in their tears and the heartbreaking images of their barely covered bones.
The rescue committee says their small bodies are shutting down. They can't breathe. Their immune systems are collapsing. The U.N. says, nearly one in three people are now going days without eating. Hospitals already overwhelmed and overflowing with survivors from bombs and airstrikes, they're now seeing a sharp rise in starvations. And among those dying are the ones waiting for food.
According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, more than a thousand people have died trying to receive supplies from aid trucks since late May, in the rare instances that they are available. And that includes a 13-year-old boy who was killed by Israeli gunfire.
His name was Ibrahim (ph), waiting to get flour for his family, according to his dad. The World Food Programne says Israeli snipers and tanks open fire on the crowd of families rushing to the truck. In some instances, Israel has denied firing on crowds, and in others calls them warning shots. But CNN spoke to more than a dozen eyewitnesses who say otherwise.
The U.N. says that Israel is the one that decides when and how much enters the desperate region. Israel, which imposed a total siege for March until May, denies being responsible for any famine. Instead, they're blaming Hamas for stealing food.
But the question tonight is, why is the United States so silent about this crisis? Both the Biden and Trump administrations have been criticized for the lack of pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu and Israel, but we're learning the current White House doesn't even have a top official focused on humanitarian aid in Gaza. That's despite the situation growing more dire by the hour, and hours can make all the difference for parents, many of whom only have their children's last words left.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't see any blood on his body, but then he started bleeding from his mouth.
[22:05:00]
I started calling his name, Ibrahim, Ibrahim. He said, take me to my mom. Take me to my mom, please, dad, pull me out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us at our table in the fifth seat is Peter Beinhart, author of Being Jewish After the Destruction of Gaza.
Peter, you have written about this. Obviously, you've been critical of Israel's conduct in this war, but I wonder if you feel like this moment, these images that are coming out about the humanitarian situation is in fact an inflection point.
PETER BEINHART, AUTHOR, BEING JEWISH AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF GAZA: Why did it take this long? I mean, in November of last year, the International Criminal Court issued a warrant for the arrest of Benjamin Netanyahu who for the war crime of starvation eight months ago before Israel cut off all food, all water, all electricity into the Gaza Strip for three months? And to say the United States is silent, it's much, much worse than that. We are profoundly complicit and deeply responsible. It is our weapons that enforce this starvation. It is our diplomatic efforts that prevent international justice from being done. The blood is on our hands as Americans because it is our weapons that is responsible for those children starving to death.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No blood for the hands of Hamas?
BEINHART: Hamas has lots of -- no, why don't you let me finish? How about that?
JENNINGS: I'm just asking.
BEINHART: Yes
JENNIGNS: You I blamed Israel and you blames the U.S. but we haven't heard Hamas yet.
BEINHART: I actually have one of my closest friends in college was blown up by Hamas. I have probably a lot more experience with suffering from Hamas, with all due respect, than you do. Let's say this, if we want to see who is more to blame for the starvation of children in Gaza, Hamas, or Israel, let CNN in. Israel has not allowed western journalists in since October 7th. Let them go in, let CNN go in and decide for themselves. How about that? How about it?
JENNINGS: How about Hamas releases the hostages and lead to a ceasefire?
BEINHART: Yes. And let me think, what do you think would happen if Hamas releases --
PHILLIP: Scott, let ask you a question because Hamas is responsible for October 7th. Hamas is responsible for a lot of a lot of terrible things. But the question is, who can alleviate the starvation at this moment in Gaza? And does Israel have a responsibility to do much more than it is doing right now? And what do you say to that?
JENNINGS: Well, my view is Hamas started the war. The suffering of the people in Gaza is their direct responsibility of what Hamas has done. Hamas took money for years.
PHILLIP: But what about Israel's -- what about --
JENNINGS: And instead of doing anything for the people in Gaza, built tunnels for the siege.
PHILLIP: But what Israel's role in controlling the flow --
JENNINGS: You asked me a question. They were answered.
PHILLIP: But what about Israel's role in controlling the flow of food?
JENNINGS: Yes.
PHILLIP: I just want us to set the table here because I understand that there's a lot of political talking points around this, but this is a conversation about human beings and about the things that they need in order to survive, which is food and water. And the question I have for you is, is there a moment for you where you sit here and you think, yes, maybe more can be done, and at what point should the United States government say that?
JENNINGS: Well, we are saying that number one, Hamas has weaponized aid. They've stolen it from the United Nations to resell it, to finance their war. Some people think they've made a billion dollars stealing and weaponizing this aid. That's not the United States' doing. That's Hamas' doing. That's number one.
Number two, they've made unreasonable demands in these hostage negotiations. We're on the brink of a hostage deal and a ceasefire. They've blown that up today with Israel and now the United States having to walk away from an unreasonable situation. It is blatantly obvious that Israel and the United States want the hostages home, they want a ceasefire and they want to feed the people in Gaza. Hamas does not --
BEINHART: Can I just -- can I tell, the Israeli government's stated position, stated position, is to support the Trump plan for the full expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. And I would remind you there are no -- there is no Hamas leadership in the West Bank. How are Palestinians being tweeted in the West Bank where Hamas is not in control, where there are no Hamas fighters? Palestinians are being expelled from their homes, living under conditions that even Israel's own human rights organizations call apartheid in the West Bank where there is no Hamas.
So yes, Hamas does despicable things, but these talking points with all the (INAUDIBLE), people don't believe them anymore. People don't believe them anymore.
JENNINGS: All they have to do is release the hostages.
PHILLIP: I just want to play -- hold on a second, Scott. I want to play Cindy McCain. She's the executive director of the World Food Programme. And she talked about what is happening right now in terms of the actual administration of aid and what it could be. And she knows that because she's done it before. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY MCCAIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME: When we had full access, we had 400 distribution sites. We were getting in 600 trucks a day. So, the capability that we have is unmatched by any other organization or any other foundation. And we know where our food goes because we have a system on the ground that is tested and works. We need full sustained access. We need ad scale so we can set up the kinds of aid stations that can actually help people and do it where it's not a panic situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:09]
FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): Cindy's right. Let me just say from the outset, Hamas is responsible for what happened in, in Gaza. They don't negotiate in good faith. They're a terrorist organization. Having said that, Israel needs to be doing far more than they're doing to allow food to come in or to provide it themselves. And, I mean, being -- you know, having spent much in the last three years in the Muslim world, you ought to see how the U.S. is being portrayed there for standing by and being silent, at least on this.
Now, Hamas, they are a terrorist organization. I don't speak for them, but Israel needs to do more and America needs to do more to force them to allow food in. It is just -- it's heartbreaking to see what's going on. I served meals in Southern Turkey after the earthquake with somebody from World Central Kitchen, who later went to Gaza and was killed by a strike. They're serving meals there.
It's a horrible situation. Anybody who can watch what we just watched and say now Israel's doing enough, the U.S. is doing enough, we're not.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, she said 400 distribution sites is what they typically would have to feed a population of that size. We're talking about four now. And then at those sites, I can show you the headlines. I mean, dozens killed in separate incidents over the course of the last several weeks just trying to get aid at those sites creating incredibly dangerous conditions.
It just seems, Abel, at this moment, it's not actually asking all that much for there to be more than what is happening right now, because what's happening right now is clearly not even close to being enough.
FMR. LT. GOV. ABEL MALDONADO (R-CA): Abby, to look at the images, obviously, it's painful, especially I'm a father, there's a lot of us here who are fathers, to see these kids. But then Hamas is just -- you know, they portray as a political party. They're a syndicate, they're a gang. They are a terrorist organization. I've been to Sderot, I've been to Ashdod, little cities right next to Gaza. These kids wake up in the morning, there's a kazam (ph) coming over their head. They're going into these culverts that -- they paint them as snail so these kids can play in culverts to protect themselves. This is bad. President Donald J. Trump wants a couple of things. Scott mentioned it. He wants a ceasefire. He wants this to end. This guy does not want war. President Trump wants this to end.
BEINHART: He's called for a mass expulsion.
MALDONADO: Hamas is the one --
KATZ ABUGHAZALEH (D), U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ILLINOIS: He wants to build a hotel --
BEINHART: He's all for expelling the entire population. Did you not hear that?
MALDONADO: I mean, come on. Come on.
ABUGHAZALEH: Come on, what?
JENNINGS: He's got his envoy over there right now.
BEINHART: That's the official Israeli position to facilitate the Trump act (ph). Why are three of those four of aid centers all in the extreme south of Gaza on the border of Egypt? Because Israel's own defense minister has said, we are implementing the Trump plan. Gazans can only live on 12 percent of Gaza now, which was already one of the most overcrowded places on Earth because Israel is facilitating the Trump plan, moving the population into a tiny area, making life so hellish and so miserable that they hope that as many people who don't die will leave. That's the official Israeli policy.
MALDONADO: Release the hostages, create a ceasefire, end the war, get back to normal. That's the plan.
ABUGHAZALEH: What is normal here though? Donald Trump just burned (ph) $800 million --
MALDONADO: Look, it's not -- listen, one kazam here in New York, I can tell you what the people in New York would do. They get kazams every day in those little towns.
BEINHART: But Gaza was under Israeli occupation -- has been on Israeli occupation since 1967. You know, most of the people in Gaza are not from Gaza. They're from families of refugees that were expelled from Israel in 1948. That's why they're there in the first place.
PHILLIP: Let me let Kat have a word in. Go ahead.
ABUGHAZALEH: I am from one of those families. My father's parents were Nakba survivors. I do not want Israeli children to live in fear, and I don't want Gazan children to starved to death. And there is no enemy of either state that could want me to wish that or excuse the starvation of children. It is that simple.
Food is being blocked. It is being blocked. This is a manmade humanitarian disaster. It could stop at any point. We could be putting pressure on this.
MALDONADO: Kat, they launched missiles from hospitals. They launched missiles from preschool.
ABUGHAZALEH: Okay. There is nothing.
MALDONAO: Hamas is.
ABUGHAZALEH: There is nothing, no agency --
PHILLIP: Let me ask you to respond exactly to what she said. What is the rationale for blocking food?
JENNINGS: I don't believe --
PHILLIP: Period.
JENNINGS: There's 950 trucks sitting there with food riding right now that the U.N. won't distribute.
ABUGHAZALEH: Because you're not allowed.
JENNINGS: Why is the U.N. --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
JENNINGS: I don't understand.
PHILLIP: Scott, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
JENNINGS: There was 950 trucks with food sitting at this moment.
PHILLIP: Scott, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Israel and the United States have put together a program to distribute food.
[22:15:02]
JENNINGS: Yes.
PHILLIP: Because they don't want the U.N. to be a part of it. They want to do it themselves. But that program is what is -- what everyone is saying is failing. In fact --
JENNINGS: Not everyone.
PHILLIP: In fact --
ABUGHAZALEH: The starving children are.
PHILLIP: There is a statement here from a hundred human rights groups that says, as the Israeli government siege starves the people of Gaza, aid workers are now joining the same food lines, risking being shot to feed their families with supply now totally depleted humanitarian organizations. They're witnessing their own colleagues and partners waste away before their eyes. The government of Israel's restrictions, delays, and fragmentation under its total siege have created chaos, starvation, death.
Again, this is within the power of Israel to alleviate this. And even if the idea is that Hamas is stealing some of the aid, the quantity of aid, Scott, that is coming into Gaza right now is not even close to what is necessary to feed the population. So, it would be one thing if they were giving as much food as was necessary and Hamas was stealing all of it, but that's not what's happening.
JENNINGS: Look regarding the United States, to Senator Flake's point regarding our position in this, I think the administration's support of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation effort, I think they're the only people right now that are actually successfully delivering aid in a way that it is not being stolen.
I think one of the main problems only is the aid that's going in, it's being looted and stolen by the terrorists. GHF has done a good job so far.
PHILLIP: Just one second, because based on -- I just played the Cindy McCain sound and I almost feel like we might need to play it again because she's being very clear. She runs an organization that knows how to distribute food. And she's saying there are other ways to do this that are better and more effective and they are not being allowed to do it. Why are they not being allowed to do it?
FLAKE: I don't think Donald Trump wants children in Gaza to starve.
ABUGHAZALEH: Why won't he just literally generate $800 million worth of emergency food? Why didn't he do that then?
FLAKE: I'm simply saying that the U.S. could do more to put pressure on Israel to allow the food in and to be distributed. That's what I'm saying.
MALDONADO: I don't think that U.S. walking away from negotiations is just a negotiation tactic, because we got to be back at the --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I also will say that, obviously, the negotiations around the end to the war are important, but they are actually separate. Because the humanitarian situation, you know, there are rules of the road about how you conduct wars, and the starvation of populations is not part of the rules of the road. So, that --
JENNINGS: Yes. Why won't Hamas follow the rules?
PHILLIP: So, regardless -- hold on, Scott. Regardless of whether or not they come to the negotiating table and negotiate a peace deal, the question will remain, who is going to feed the population in Gaza?
JENNINGS: Because when you're delivering aid and Hamas is looting it and shooting people trying to get it, that means the war is still going and it's hard to deliver it, I would think.
BEINHART: Every single thing that you've said is an Israeli government talking point. The question is if you're so confident --
JENNINGS: Every single thing you said is a Hamas --
BEINHART: No. With all due respect, I've suffered a lot more from Hamas, people I know, than you have. With all due respect, if you want to attest these things, why don't you call for Israel to allow western journalists in to go and check for themselves to see whether you're right.
JENNINGS: You want me to call on a foreign government --
BEINHART: Why don't you ask Israel to allow western journalists to go, not to micromanage, to go on the ground and do reporting, which is what organizations like CNN do, and the look for themselves?
MALDONADO: Peter. It's war. They invaded Israel.
BEINHART: Yes, there is a war. And under -- and you still -- there's -- what Hamas did on October 7th were war crimes. They were utterly despicable and immoral. It is also the case that Palestinians have been under occupation, under a condition that even Israel's own human rights organizations call apartheid, Israel's own human rights organization, since 1967. That is the reality that existed on October 6th.
And if you want to keep everybody safer, just as you were saying, if you want to keep Israeli Jews safer -- many, many, many Israeli Jews are very close to me, including my own family. If you want to keep them safe, you have to also keep Palestinians safe. And Palestinians will not be safe if they're under conditions of bondage and apartheid. They have to be free.
ABUGHAZALEH: Our fates are intertwined. There is no other way about it. And if you want safe Israelis, if you want safe Palestinians, you have to recognize that those are tied together. We can't be debating basic human dignity here if people deserve to be starved.
JENNINGS: Do you think the people who were murdered and raped and taken hostage on October 7th were given basic human dignity?
BEINHART: Of course not.
JENNINGS: Because I don't.
ABUGHAZALEH: Those are war crimes.
JENNINGS: When I went to the Nir Oz Kibbutz, when I went to the Nova Music Festival site and I heard the firsthand stories of the people who had family members murdered and taken hostage who had sexual atrocities committed against them --
ABUGHAZALEH: Scott, do you think they want children to starve death?
JENNINGS: No human dignity. They were treated like animals.
PHILLIP: Scott, obviously, the perpetrators of October 7th are despicable.
JENNINGS: And they're still in charge.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
[22:20:00]
The perpetrators of October 7th are despicable. But the question is, are you holding a three-month-old baby who is starving to death accountable for things that that baby did not do?
JENNINGS: No, I'm holding Hamas accountable.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, that's why the question is so important here at this table. Look, I want to have this conversation with respect for everybody involved, but it's so important to remember that we are not talking about talking points. We are talking about human beings, and there are people who are starving, children who are starving in Gaza today, who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened on October 7th.
And I hope that there's a part in our minds that can hold those ideas together at the same time, because if there is not, then I think that there is something being lost in terms of our collective humanity.
MALDONADO: I believe everybody here at this table feels more pain for those kids than Hamas of their own kids.
PHILLIP: Of course, they do. Of course, they do. But we are in the wealthiest country of the world. Israel is our ally and our partner. We have leverage here. The question is, why aren't we using it.
Peter, last word?
BEINHART: And the irony is the, although Israel has destroyed most of the hospitals and most of the schools and most of the universities and most of the bakeries and most of the agriculture, you know what it is not has destroyed? It has not destroyed Hamas.
The outgoing head of the Shin Bet, Israel's domestic security Service, said just last week that Israel cannot destroy Hamas. Hamas now is using weapons that are from Israel's own ordinance that it has dropped. This war has destroyed so many Palestinian lives and it has not destroyed Hamas. That is the irony you guys are talking about. How much you hate Hamas. I hate Hamas just as much as you. Hamas is still there. The Palestinian people are starving to death.
(CROSSTALKS)
BEINHART: They're not severely (INAUDIBLE). They have so many new fighters because of people taking revenge for what Israel has done to their family.
PHILLIP: Peter Beinhart, thank you very much for joining us. We have to leave the conversation there. Next for us, though, breaking news tonight out of Washington, the deputy attorney general says he will meet with Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice again tomorrow in a chat that's already raising eyebrows. Jemele Hill will be with us at the table.
Plus, a surreal scene between a president and his nemesis, and a pair of hard hats.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: Breaking news tonight, President Trump's former personal attorney and the number two official at the Justice Department has even more questions for Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice. Todd Blanche says that he plans to continue interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell tomorrow after their meeting today. Maxwell is a key witness in the case. She's serving 20 years in federal prison for helping Epstein groom and sexually abuse girls.
Also tonight, new details on that book of birthday notes that Maxwell gifted to Epstein in 2003. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the album also included a letter from Bill Clinton. In a statement obtained by CNN, a source says that Clinton has never been accused of wrongdoing and adds that he did not object to unsealing the documents when asked about it last year.
Jemele Hill is with us at the table now. So, more drip, drip, and I should note that Trump just a little while ago, a couple hours ago, sent out yet another message about this Epstein saga saying that the radical left Democrats are doing everything in their power to distract from our great six months of service to America. He says, they've gone absolutely crazy and are playing another Russia, Russia, Russia. He calls it the Epstein scam.
JEMELE HILL, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: This is just a delicious own goal for so many reasons. Listen, he was the one -- him and the Republican Party, they were the one that kept feeding this insane conspiracy theory about who was in these files, and it was all cute and well and all fun when they could theorize and feed them conspiracy theories about all the Democrats who were possibly on this list. And now that their base expects delivery, they expect something to come from this, now they're like, wait a minute, there was nothing there. This is all -- nobody's going to buy it.
So, even if there is nothing there, which, I mean, let's be honest, at this point, on either side of the aisle, if they really had the goods on the other side, I think we probably would've known that by now. But the fact is because of how he used this conspiracy theory to further solidify himself with his base, they're not going to buy whatever he says. So, now he's got to produce some kind of smoking gun. And if there isn't one, nobody's going to believe it.
So I'm just very satisfied by seeing him make such a huge, unforced error. JENNINGS: You know, I have to say, your use of the word delicious, to start your comments, and then you're saying that you're very satisfied, but, you know, we are talking about a situation here where young women were abused. This is a tragic case. Maxwell's in jail because she helped traffic the women. This is a very, very tragic case.
I see Democrats and people on the left taking great political delight in this because they don't care one bit about the victims. They only started caring this about five minutes ago.
HILL: They did the same thing, Scott.
JENNINGS: They only started carrying five minutes ago when it was a cudgel against Trump.
So, this kind of language where we just sort of laugh about the situation, but forget the underlying issue, the victims here, to me, it's beyond the pale.
PHILLIP: What's your solution to that problem? I mean, what do you -- should they release the files? Like what should happen here?
JENNINGS: I have no problem with whatever transparency they can do. Obviously they've gone to court to ask a judge on the grand jury that they've run into a roadblock there. They've got the deputy attorney general interviewing Maxwell. I don't know what they can and will release, but I have no problem with whatever transparency they come up with.
ABUGHAZALEH: They have many gigabytes of files in their possession that they don't need to go to a judge for that they could release, and they haven't.
I do think this point about feeding into the conspiracies, which, Ambassador Flake, you were making that point too.
[22:30:02]
Karl Rove backed you up in an op-ed saying, there's hell to pay when those who hyped the conspiracy have closed the books on the case. Conspiracy theories undermine trust and cause chaos. And when they are believed by large numbers of people, truth and reality becomes subjective." But he points out, "None of that bothers Mr. Trump." And I think that is fundamentally what is at -- at play here.
JEFF FLAKE (R) FORMER U.S. SENATOR, ARIZONA: It is. I mean, I think all of us, when we heard President Trump now accusing President Obama now underbinding his first term or -- or the Russia -- Russia thing and saying that he should be prosecuted, it rang -- what rang like a rhyme is President Trump, when he first started to run, accusing Barack Obama of not being born in the U.S.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
FLAKE: And when you play in conspiracy theories, when you traffic in this stuff, it's going to come back to bite you. And it is. Because this was played up mostly by Republicans. And -- and now, they have to show something and they aren't able to. And so, the base is upset and as Karl Rove pointed out, this is going to linger and it will linger for a while.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
ABEL MALDONADO (R) FORMER CALIFORNIA LT. GOVERNOR: Well, Abby, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, number one. Number two, is there evidence of a new crime? That's what I've been waiting for. Because if there's no evidence of a new crime, what are we talking about this for?
KAT ABUGHAZALEH (D) U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ILLINOIS: I'd like to know if the president's a pedophile.
MALDONADO: I mean, look, it would have been out already during the Biden administration.
ABUGHAZALEH: Then why not release the files?
MALDONADO: I mean, look. Is there evidence of a new crime? If there is, let's prosecute to the end. If there's not, what are we doing?
ABUGHAZALEH: What about the old crime?
MALDONADO: The guy's a pedophile, the guy's a creep. He was arrested, put in jail by Trump, by the way. The Trump administration arrested him and he's suicided in jail.
PHILLIP: But, and let me -- can I play this from Senator Markwayne Mullin? He's kind of saying the quiet part out loud here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): I'm sure this would be handled just like any other thing that they've tried to go after like the baseless impeachments, or the baseless -- baseless special counsels, or the unbelievable amount of charges they've tried to file against the President. What we're simply wanting to do here is give them cover.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Cover for what? If there's not -- if there's no wrongdoing, what are they giving cover for?
ABUGHAZALEH: That's what I want to know and I'm kind of shocked at the fact that Republicans would rather shut down Congress altogether than be transparent about pedophiles. Like that's really ridiculous to me. And I think one of the under covered part of the parts of this story is the fact that if any of us at this table committed like one tenth of Epstein's crimes, we'd be in jail for life. But this guy was rich. He was well-connected. And he got away with these crimes for so long. His best friend -- that's Epstein's words -- became the President of the United States.
MALDONADO: He's not denying he was a friend of his. (CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: But why not release the files?
MALDONADO: I mean, look. He -- he --
ABUGHAZALEH: I think what we've seen is that this government is more willing to protect rich pedophiles --
(CROSSTALK)
MALDONADO: Look, Kat -- Kat. What I want to know is the Democrat Party didn't bring this up during Joe Biden four years. Why don't you release him during Biden four years?
JEMELLE HILL, "THE ATLANTIC" CONTRIBUTING WRITER: But the point is who's in power now?
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Who has the power to actually do that now?
UNKNOWN: It's a question.
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If it important today, it was important four years ago.
MALDONADO: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I mean, I don't disagree with that. Like, I think it should be --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: You did a second ago.
HILL: No, I'm not disagreeing that. But what I'm saying is that the -- the people who are in power, if there's nothing there, then just release it.
(CROSSTALK)
MALDONADO: No, I think -- I think --
(CROSSTALK)
MALDONADO: The Democrat Party is polling about 18 percent. They're trying to find something to divide the Republican Party.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: But this was the Republican Party's thing first. The A.G. kept talking about this big pack of files on our desk and then brought out Libs of TikTok and all these conservative influencers to show how they had the Epstein files. And then it turns out that it was nothing new in those files. And they looked like fools.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure the Republicans really needed Democrats on this one to divide them on this issue, but they were certainly, to your point, happy to help. Up next, a front row seat to the feud between Trump and the Fed chair. See what happened when Trump tried to show Jerome Powell some funky math.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:38:40]
PHILLIP: In today's episode of the Trump presidency, the President takes a field trip and a meeting with his nemesis, the Fed chair, turned into a surreal encounter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It looks like it's about 3.1 billion. It went up a little bit, or a lot. So, the 2.7 is now 3.1.
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yeah, it just came out.
POWELL: Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. You just -- you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: It's -- it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it was built five years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Trump was there to tour the fed's renovation project and while its true cost may have gone up, it's because the building is nearly a century old, not because of any fancy add-ons. Trump has been using the project as a threat on Powell's job, but it doesn't seem that he's in jeopardy at this point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Are there things the chairman can say to you today that would make you back off some of the earlier criticism?
TRUMP: Well, I'd love him to lower interest rates. Other than that, what can I tell you? There was no tension. There was no tension. I think he had more tension with my great senator to the right. He's pretty tough cookie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:40:00]
PHILLIP: Listen, that aggressive pat on the back. It's very --
(LAUGHTER)
FLAKE: That was the most compelling television.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: I don't even know what to say.
FLAKE: And -- and good on him -- I mean, Jerome Powell, for actually standing up to the President right there in real time. I mean, that takes guts, and he did it. And I wish that more of his Republican colleagues would do so in Congress. We'd have a better system if they did.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's so much easier to get the Fed chair to lower interest rates back off on the tariffs, and that would be, that's that. But instead Trump is trying to use this renovation as a reason to put pressure on him. I'm not sure that that's going to work.
JENNINGS: Yeah, I don't know if he's going to fire him. Doesn't sound like he's going to. He doesn't have that many months left on his term. Trump will be able to put in his own fed chair. It looks to me like he's planning to just humiliate this person for the next eight months and make him into a miserable person. And you know what? He deserves it because he should have lowered interest rates -- A. B, I'm not sure the Fed's done all that great of a job over time since Powell has been in, even though Trump did first appoint him.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, even though --
JENNINGS: And -- and so, maybe he deserves a little of the political theater.
PHILLIP: I'm curious about that Scott because first of all, this is Donald Trump's Fed chair. He appointed Powell. But the second thing is, realistically, when you look at the last four year -- let's call it the post pandemic period, interest rates have gone up and inflation has gone down.
The country is not in a recession, never was. And on top of that, I was looking at the stock market returns over the last couple of years, 2025, was double digits, 25 percent or so. So, I don't know, what kind of job did Jerome Powell do? I think the results are kind of there.
MALDONADO: Well, I think he's leaving them there. And I think he -- he understands that maybe by taking Jerome Powell out at this time, it might hurt the stock market. But today, President Trump was in his element. I mean, think about it. He was wearing his hard hat. He's a builder. He has built a lot of hotels.
HILL: He was in his element?
MALDONADO: He was in his element. He was walking down the stairs of construction sites.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The renovation -- the renovation --
MALDONADO: And he knows what things cost. He knows what construction costs. He knows employees. And then he taps him on the side and he says, hey, lower the interest rates? And he's right. Lowering the interest rates helps all Americans across the board.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I mean, there's no denying that, but I think in that exchange the person who looked crazy was the president and not Jerome Powell. I have a special kind of respect for people who keep that same energy and Jerome Powell-- he could have wilted in that moment.
MALDONADO: You Jerome Powell knows more about construction than Donald J. Trump?
UNKNOWN: I think he knows more about that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me just play real quick. This is what Trump said about -- he was asked whether or not this construction project that he's been railing against is a fireable offense, as he previously suggested.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You saw what we saw. And the big thing is to get it done. They have to get it done. They have to get it finished. And very importantly, we have to get interest rates lowered in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It seems like he went in there and he was like, yeah, this place needs to be renovated.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Like, I --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Yeah, but he's -- but he's clearly mad about the --
PHILLIP: I think he was kind of convinced. JENNINGS: But he's clearly mad about the cost overruns.
MALDONADO: Right.
JENNINGS: I mean, 900 million or whatever it is. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: I have a great idea.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- and to the average American, billions of dollars.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But you got to -- I mean, you got to understand what the cost overruns are for. The building, when they started renovating it, they found asbestos, they found toxic soil contamination. DHS then recommended all these security measures which will be extremely expensive.
And then of course, there's the pandemic and the inflation that was caused by it. So, there are a lot of reasons that the costs have gone up, but clearly the President's numbers were not quite right when he went in to talk to the main numbers guy in the United States.
Coming up next for us though, after all their concessions and promises, it's finally a done deal for Skydance and Paramount. But South Park just flipped the bird to its own company.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:48:31]
PHILLIP: Tonight, does bending the knee pay off? Well, apparently so. The Trump administration just formally approved the merger between Paramount and Skydance. It ends a years-long saga that included a CBS settlement, the cancellation of Stephen Colbert, and the promise of a DEI purge and bias police.
Enter two of Paramount's employees, Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the creators of South Park. They put out a statement earlier this month calling the merger a, quote, (EXPLICIT) show that's effing up South Park. They also then promised new episodes of the series, which first aired last night. And it was pretty clear that the comedy duo isn't taking any of the notes that are probably coming from the C-suite right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: The President's suing you?
UNKNOWN: The guy can do whatever he wants now that someone's back down, okay? Eat the bread, eat the bread. UNKNOWN: You guys saw what happened to CBS? You all won't guess who
owned CBS? Paramount. You really want to end up the cold war? You guys got to stop being stupid. If someone has the power of the presidency and also has the power to sue and take bribes, then he can do anything to anyone. It's the (BEEP) president, dude. All of you shut the (BEEP) up or South Park is over.
UNKNOWN: I'm not in the mood right now. Another random (BEEP) commented on my Instagram that you're on the Epstein list.
UNKNOWN: The Epstein list? Are we still talking about that?
[22:50:00]
UNKNOWN: Well are you on the list or not? It's weird that whenever it comes up you just tell everyone to relax.
UNKNOWN: I'm not telling everyone to relax. Relax, guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It takes some -- it takes some cojones to do that. They just literally, days ago --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Well, they got their contract.
PHILLIP: -- a $1.5 billion deal with Paramount and now this.
HILL: What does that teach us class about leverage?
UNKNOWN: Right.
HILL: Right? Is that when you have that kind of deal, you can do exactly what they had. And even though I think that Stephen Colbert is firing that that wasn't entirely on the up and up that I think there was some political pressure, you'd -- Stephen Colbert did not have as much leverage as these guys from South Park. I think a lot of people didn't realize what a moneymaker this was.
And one thing you could say about them, those guys have gotten everybody. You know, clearly they make fun of Jesus. They make like, there's no one who is safe from this outfit. So, you know, Donald Trump, he specializes in crude jokes and he's supposed to be politically incorrect. Well, there you go. There's political incorrectness at his height.
ABUGHAZALEH: It's like, it's refreshing to see someone not bend the knee, as we've seen time and time again, not just with this administration, but plenty of other, you know, governments and politicians that try to consolidate power when you cave once that never really saves you. And so, I think, you know, Matt Stone and Trey Parker setting an example and, uh, that rocks. Good for them.
HILL: It does help when you have a billion dollars. (CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: I guess we love the First Amendment here.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, they kind of get to eat their cake and have it, too. They're like taking the money and then also knifing their parent company.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: The lesson here is that if you're funny, and you make money and people want to watch your show, you can do things. And if you're not funny and you're committed to partisan liberal hackery that's hemorrhaging viewers and is not profitable, then you can't do things. And just a few days ago, the left was convinced that Colbert was fired for political reasons. Obviously, this company is airing material that is not favorable to Donald Trump. It is objectively hilarious. I watch every episode --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- of these guys and have for years. I think it's great. But -- but --
PHILLIP: So, you're -- you're cool with it?
JENNINGS: Of course. Of course.
PHILLIP: Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: Even the A.I. image at the end?
MALDONADO: It's exaggeration. It's cartoons.
FLAKE: That right there is more South Park than I've ever watched.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Well look, I mean, a lot of people apparently do watch South Park. I mean I do think it's interesting that you are fine with this because I thought that the argument about Colbert was that it's so one-sided and that is the reason why it should be taken off the air. I mean this is pretty one-sided, too.
MALDONADO: I mean these guys have been roasting presidents since 1990. They roast everybody.
UNKNOWN: Yeah. MALDONADO: They're equal opportunity employer. These guys don't care. So --and they're very good. As you said Scott, they're very good, they're very quick and they get it out there. I mean -- and then President Trump came out and somebody said they're fourth rate. I mean, he respects what they're doing. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: You guys were cool about the last 60 seconds.
JENNINGS: I don't care what they do. I really don't because over the years, these guys have proven that they will take on anybody, that they're funny, but, you know, in the marketplace in which they exist, they have -- they have done what you're supposed to do. Be funny, attract an audience, and make money. And they deserve everything they're getting right now in their new deal, and I'm looking forward to all their episodes. I think it's one of the -- it's one of the greatest shows of last two decades.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott -- Scott, you want a cameo, Scott?
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: I'd be mortified about what they would do to me, but --
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: I just have to know that the White House said that this is a fourth-rate show and that it cannot derail Trump's hot streak. A last quick word though on the Paramount of it all. I mean, this deal is now going to go through. But it was very clear based on the statements from the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr that they wanted -- they wanted concessions that were frankly, it seemed, along ideological lines. They wanted DEI gone, they wanted the money, they wanted all of those things.
FLAKE: Well, we're seeing that across the board. Columbia University -- we're seeing it with law firms. And that is troubling, I have to say. To have the President of the United States with the power that he wields to be able to intervene in situations like this, I think we all ought to be troubled by it, conservative, liberal, whoever you are.
PHILLIP: Jemele, you have some experience going after, or not -- speaking truth in the face of people, your employer who's pushing back on it. Would there be any consequences, you think, for these guys after this?
HILL: No, not at all. I mean, because one thing that I definitely think helps, I think about somebody like Charles Barkley. What could Charles Barkley say to offend anybody? Which is nothing. And the reason why he can is because he has been the same and consistently the same for years. Like, you know that Charles Barkley is a straight shooter. So, he says things and gets away with things that other broadcasters
cannot. South Park, the fact that they have traffic for a long time and as you said, being equal opportunity roasters, gives them a certain amount of cushion and a certain amount of comfort.
And again, when you have the money and you have this equity of 20 plus years on air and an audience, that's going to allow you to have a lot more leverage than other people who may speak the same truth and maybe in different forms, and not get the same amount of forgiveness, or people looking at the way or somebody likes guys saying like, just find it funny, as opposed to somebody else trying to do the same thing.
[22:55:19]
PHILLIP: All right, everybody. Thank you very much for joining us. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:01]
PHILLIP: Before we go, a quick programming note. Don't miss an all- new episode of the CNN original series, "Billionaire Boys Club" -- when the club's leader has a plan for revenge, but it goes awry and it leads to his arrest. It airs Sunday night, 10 P.M. right here on CNN.
And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media-- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
