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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Epstein Accomplice Granted Limited Immunity To Talk To DOJ; Maxwell's Lawyer Appears To Suggest She Wants A Pardon; Trump Denies Epstein Briefing Despite Being Told In May; "NewsNight" Discusses Zohran Mamdani's Popularity; Hulk Hogan Dies At 71; Chef Liza Zeneski Of Food Network Shares Today's Special Dish with "NewsNight". Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 25, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, a curious twist in the Epstein saga, what Ghislaine Maxwell received in order to talk to Donald Trump's Justice Department.
Plus, from release the Epstein files to release Epstein's accomplice?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.
PHILLIP: Trump refuses to rule out a pardon for Maxwell.
Also, are socialists having a contagion moment? Why the left wing sees the ingredients after tasting success.
And from famous to infamous, Americans debate the controversial legacies of fallen stars.
Live at the table, Jemele Hill, Joe Borelli, Charles Blow and Abel Maldonado, along with legal analysts, Joey Jackson and Donte Mills.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Hello. I'm Abby Philip in New York for a special edition of NewsNight. This summer, we are taking this show on some field trips, spending our Fridays right here at the Food Networks Kitchen in New York. They are our sister company. And we have, as usual, a fabulous chef serving our friends of the show, and she has a special treat for us at the end of the night.
But, first, we have to get to some breaking news. Donald Trump's Justice Department has given Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice limited immunity in their talks over the last 48 hours. And the president tonight is not ruling out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell. These head-spinning developments deepened the saga that has engulfed this White House. Now, remember two things. One, Donald Trump has been told that he is in the Epstein files, which does not necessarily suggest wrongdoing because the context isn't clear yet. And, two, the DOJs meeting was already raising eyebrows since it is unprecedented for a deputy attorney general to travel and talk with the prisoner. This is the person who is running the Department of Justice. And on top of that, that deputy attorney general was Donald Trump's personal lawyer just six months ago. So, there is a sudden interest in this despite the president and his administration trying to bury it over the last month.
Meanwhile, Maxwell's lawyer has made it pretty clear that she's looking for a pardon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID OSCAR MARKUS, GHISLAINE MAXWELL'S ATTORNEY: We haven't spoken to the president or anybody about a pardon just yet. And, you know, listen the president this morning said he had the power to do so. We hope he exercises that power in the right and just way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now also, remember that this woman was convicted of abusing and sex trafficking girls. And despite all of that, the president didn't reject the idea of a pardon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell if --
TRUMP: It's something I haven't thought about. It's really something -- it's something -- I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.
A lot of people have asked about pardon. This is just not a time to be talking about pardons.
Todd will come back with whatever he's got. You're make it a very big thing over something that's not a big thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm sure you have a lot of questions, I do too, because none of this really makes a lot of sense.
We have two very smart legal analysts here with us. Help me understand here, what could the Justice Department possibly be getting out of Ghislaine Maxwell that would be trustworthy at this point given that she knows what they want, which is information on other people, but not Donald Trump?
DONTE MILLS, NATIONAL TRIAL ATTORNEY: I would say nothing. Answering your question, what could they get that would be trustworthy? And the reason is you have the president who was named in all of this, not saying he did anything wrong, but he's named in all of this, his personal attorney is the one that went down and spoke to her. It was his personal attorney six months ago.
[22:05:00]
Now, he's the deputy attorney general.
What if the story comes out that Maxwell said that these Democrats were involved, maybe throwing a couple billionaires, Trump pardons her for coming forward and then nobody else's named? Can we believe that? Can we believe who this person is telling Donald Trump is responsible for this? We just -- that's a situation that you can't trust. There is no transparency here, and I don't think that's how it should have been handled if we want fairness to kind of rule the day.
PHILLIP: And, Joey, I'm curious, you know, Ghislaine Maxwell had a trial. There is apparently a file at the FBI on this entire saga that is so large. I mean, it is hundreds of thousands of documents large. There's a lot of information that's already there. What do they want from her? What do they really think they can get that they don't already have knowledge of?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first, I'm hungry. It's the Food Network. Could we eat first? I guess we can.
PHILLIP: No, we have to get right into it.
JACKSON: Okay, into the mix (ph). Look, the bottom line is that she is in an impossible position. Let me explain why. If she says something that's damning to the president, we can't believe it. If she says something supportive to the president, we can't believe it. The bottom line here is that there may be things you can believe.
Why? There's something called corroboration. We're not taking anyone's word for it. In a court of law, you never do or you're not supposed to. If she gives the indication of anything, who, what, when, where, how, why, all of that is vetted. You're going to corroborate whatever she says by a flight record, by a hotel record, by a text message, by an email, by surveillance, what have you. So, let's understand that we're not just going to take what she says for face value.
At the end of the day though, if you want to be fully transparent, it's about releasing the files. Oh, there are no files or are there files? We don't know because they keep flipping the story. But if you want to be transparent and let the American people know what happened, Abby, you release everything and then we could all make decisions for ourselves.
A couple more points, they talk about this issue of let's get the grand jury testimony out. Let's get the grand jury. That is such a farce. It's ridiculous. Why? In a grand jury, what happens, Abby, is you're just giving them limited bare bones information, that is grand jurors, so that they can indict the specific person who is in front of the grand jury. And all you're determining are two things. Number one, is there reasonable cause to believe that a crime was committed and the subject of that proceeding committed it? So, all of this stuff with the administration saying the grand jury was just a red herring. If you release everything, then you know it's what.
Last, last, last point and that's this. Well, what do you think she's going to say when the only person on the planet who can help her if she's looking for a pardon is in the White House?
PHILLIP: I mean, literally, quite literally. I mean, here's what Adam Kinzinger said about this. Trump is considering pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, the child sex trafficker, who actually helped Jeffrey Epstein. Why? Because she knows things. How are you going to spin this one? Donald Trump is straight worried that she's going to talk that he might pardon her. Do we care about child sex trafficking or don't we? Answer that one, he says.
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Well, Adam Kinzinger is not correct. Trump is not considering. That's actually what he said when he was asked directly by the press outside of the White House today. He said he was not considering.
PHILLIP: He said, I haven't given it much thought. He didn't say, I'm not going to pardon her. He didn't say that.
BORELLI: He didn't say what Kinzinger said is my point, and that's what --
JEMELE HILL, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: He could have just said no though. He said no, a part of the roundtable (ph).
BORELLI: He didn't say what Kinzinger was saying, neither here nor there.
PHILLIP: I mean, it is kind of here nor there. I mean, it is kind of here nor there. Because before you continue, let me just play what Trump has said about whether he is or isn't going to pardon people. Just listen to this and just remember that all of the people that he's talking about, he pardoned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Would you consider a pardon for Michael Flynn?
TRUMP: I don't want to talk about pardons for Michael Flynn yet.
REPORTER: Will you pardon Paul Manafort?
TRUMP: I have not even given it a thought as of this moment.
REPORTER: Roger Stone, are you going to pardon him, sir? He's been convicted of felonies.
TRUMP: Am I going to pardon him? Well, I hadn't thought of it. I think it's very tough what they did to Roger Stone. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He has also said he wishes Maxwell well. He said that so many times, it's perplexing why he would say that about somebody who's accused of what she's accused of.
BORELLI: I'll tell you, it was perplexing. We spent about two weeks in media around tables like this talking about how Donald Trump needs to release the Epstein files so that we knew who is included in this list, who were clients of Jeffrey Epstein, who was involved in sex trafficking. Virginia Giuffre is dead. Jeffrey Epstein is dead. There is only one person who could actually testify and provide links to what happened in the Epstein days of his terror with these unfortunate victims now, and that's Ghislaine Maxwell, for better or worse.
So, I don't understand why there's pushback now that people are trying to seek information that she may have on one of the world's most elite sex rings in this country.
PHILLIP: Because the president is implicated. That is why. The president is as implicated as everybody else that he says that they should investigate.
CHARLES BLOW, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR, THE DEVIL YOU KNOW: He may not be implicated or he might be.
[22:10:00]
We don't know. This is -- let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. This is a crisis of the president's own making. Most liberals did not go along with the conspiracy theory, so they weren't as invested in this idea of these papers coming out until the president started to behave like a guilty man who had just gotten caught.
And everyone looked at that and said, what is happening? Why is he doing this? There are a lot of people who are going to be in those files. None of them are behaving like Donald Trump is behaving, like they have something that they -- he has to hide, that he has to protect. And that is very suspicious and that has led liberals to join with the conspiracy theorists who have held onto this idea since at least 2016 with pizza gate.
So, that is why people want to get it now because he's acting like he's guilty.
BORELLI: No.
MILLS: So, this is the political side of it.
BORELLI: So, (INAUDIBLE) Ghislaine Maxwell not giving you the answers you seek is my question to you. Why wouldn't we want to hear what this woman has to say?
MILLS: We do, but it's the who and the how that's asking. And you very -- you spelled out very well the political side. But the legal side is this crime has two sides to it, the people who were taking advantage of those young girls and the people who were providing or trafficking them for them. We only have the people who were providing, not a single name of the people who were taking advantage of those girls. This is the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. You know, they're the best investigators in the world. The fact that this could be happening and they don't have one name of a client doesn't make any sense.
So, how are we here and how do we get the right information out without it being screened by someone who may be involved? That's all we want to know. Because those people who were taking advantage of those girls, they could be somewhere taking advantage of other girls right now. And nobody's doing anything about it because we made it a political issue and the person who can make decisions is the one running the circus.
BORELLI: So, nobody's doing anything -- let me just correct, nobody's doing anything about it except the DOJ is interviewing one of the witnesses or one of the convicted members of this ring who could actually provide that information.
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: I don't believe these interviews at all.
BORELLI: Are they playing checkers? No.
BLOW: They're trying to make sure that his name does not come up and other people's names do come up so they can deflect. That is not an interview, as the person who's done journalism their whole life. That is not an interview, sir.
PHILLIP: Jemele?
HILL: Yes. No, that's -- this entire charade is about trying to figure out where Donald Trump can use this politically or where he can cover it up. I mean, listen, I watched a couple episodes of Law and Order, it won't take Olivia Benson to figure this one out, right? It's like, oh, it looks like a cover-up.
And I'm sorry, as you said, Charles, this is a crisis. This is an unforced error. This is an own goal like I've never seen before. He created this entire conspiracy theory because it was politically beneficial to attach this to Democrats, and now that it's turned on him, he is completely fumbling this entire process.
BORELLI: We have a president whose own recollection of his involvement with Jeffrey Epstein has been challenged directly by victims. They've said they saw him on Epstein island. Another victim said that Jeffrey Epstein told her himself that this president likes them young, referring to young girls in this ring.
Now, of course I'm talking about Bill Clinton, right? But don't you think we should know the answer whether Bill Clinton --
(CROSSTALKS) BORELLI: Okay. So, why are we upset?
PHILLIP: Well, I just want to note, Joe, why are we upset that Bill Clinton's spokesperson put out a statement yesterday that said that a year ago before all of this, they said that they did not object to the Epstein files being released. So ,there's that.
Donald Trump happened -- listen, I don't even think this is about whether Donald Trump is even, you know, implicated in the sense that we know that he's done something wrong. When I said implicated, I mean in the sense that we know that there's an association between him and Epstein that he is sensitive about.
But even if there is nothing that he has done wrong, Trump should not be in a position, the argument goes where he is deciding whether or not information gets released. Because, theoretically, he -- hold on a second.
(CROSSTALKS)
BORELLI: No one else under Earth has that.
PHILLIP: I like to do the sort of put this shoe on the other foot, right, okay? So, let's say it's Joe Biden, he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein for a long time.
BORELLI: He's Bill Clinton.
PHILLIP: Okay. Let's say it's Bill Clinton, friends with Jeffrey Epstein, and Bill Clinton says, I'm going to have my former personal lawyer go interview Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator, and then I'm going to suggest that maybe there's a pardon to be had here. And then I'm going to say, well, we're going to release information about this case. Would you trust that the information that's being released would not have anything to do with Bill Clinton?
BORELLI: Abby, two weeks ago --
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: I mean, that's a yes or no.
BORELLI: -- you sat here and said --
PHILLIP: But hold on, Joe, that's a yes or no.
BORELLI: I want the information released.
PHILLIP: Would you trust --
BORELLI: We all sat around this table two weeks ago and said --
PHILLIP: Just straight up, would you trust Bill Clinton to screen information about Jeffrey Epstein? Even right now at this very moment, would you say, you said, Mr. Clinton -- Mr. Former President, I want you to go in there and tell us what is in the Jeffrey Epstein files, would you trust that?
BORELLI: Ask my friend Joey Jackson, who flat left me at a golf outing a few weeks ago and said, anything she says has to be corroborated. The point is not to make a headline. The point is not to make a press impact. The point is to get to the bottom of a sex ring involving the most elite people in the United States of America. I think we should gather every bit of information. If she wants to talk, I'm all for it.
PHILLIP: Listen, there are other ways to do this that are much more impartial.
JACKSON: Release the files.
HILL: Release the files.
BORELLI: Point stipulated. How else can we get information about the Epstein sex raid --
MILLS: By not having somebody that may be involved screening the information.
BORELLI: Unfortunately, he got elected as president. He's in charge of the Justice Department.
PHILLIP: He does not have to be involved. He doesn't have to be involved.
BORELLI: He's not involved.
PHILLIP: He really doesn't.
MILLS: The Deputy Attorney General is not involved.
JACKSON: Correct. So, Abby, the way it should work is that there should be an independent party, right? We call it independent counsel. And that independent counsel, not your personal lawyer, would go and conduct an interview. And in that interview you would get information, and, again, like I noted, you'd screen and corroborate it. The problem we have here is a number problem. But the first thing is, is look at the nature of the relationship between the person doing the interviewing and the president of the United States. That smells bad.
Number two, the bottom line is I would like to see even the transcripts prior to the interview. Hey, we're here. And we're here, Ms. Maxwell. We're just here to get information and we're considering a pardon. And based on what you tell us, we may give you a pardon or we may not. I want to hear that before we even get to the transcript.
And so the way the White House is doing this is they're keeping the information very much on a tight row. And what if it comes back to them and they don't like certain portions of the transcript, but it's only his deputy attorney general? Do you think we can trust the ultimate transcript that comes out that's released?
And last point, the actual lawyer, right, for the president, the president's lawyer, and the one who is Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer, guess what? They're best of friends. How does that work out?
MILLS: You add to that, the prosecutor that prosecuted Maxwell has now been fired.
PHILLIP: Oh, well, look, listen, at the very least, the president could have taken the pardon off the table. He did not. So, here we are with a pardon dangling over somebody who desperately wants to be out of prison.
Joey Jackson, Donte Mills, thank you very much for joining us.
And next, Donald Trump's claims about the Epstein saga keep falling apart. We're going to go through them. And another special guest is going to join us at the table.
Plus, during a week, we lost several legends. America is debating how to talk about the controversial legacy of stars like Hulk Hogan. We'll discuss that tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: More on our breaking news tonight. As we learned, the DOJ gave Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice limited immunity to talk with them. Donald Trump's claims about the case keep falling apart. He denied being briefed on the files, which he was. He denied writing a suggested birthday message because he's never doodled, which he certainly has. He denied being a fan of Epstein's despite the mounting evidence that they were closed. He denied knowing Prince Andrew despite pictures of them together, including at Mar-a-Lago. And he denied being on Epstein's plane when he had many times.
Abel is now with us at the table. Trump, as we were discussing previously, keeps talking about this, keeps contradicting himself. Why?
LT. GOV. ABEL MALDONADO (R-CA): Well, first of all, I think he's made it very clear that, you know, today he came out and said that he didn't -- nobody told him he was in the files or he didn't know he was in the files. Obviously, that's something new and I want to believe him --
PHILLIP: Well, it's new because, previously, a few days before that, he said he'd just gotten a little briefing from the Justice Department. So, he has said both things and they are, in fact, contradictory.
MALDONADO: At the end of the day, Abby, this is this is an issue that's taken a life of its own, to be very sincere. And from the standpoint of everybody thought this was going to be a one-day or a two-day or a three-day, and it's continued to move forward, and why? The question I ask myself is why. I think the Democrat Party has found a little niche here where the Republicans are divided and they're coming at it. But let's just get to the issue of what really happened here. We have a situation here where a creep, pedophile, with the assistance of Maxwell, did some very horrible things. And President Trump actually put him in jail. He's the one that put him in jail under his administration.
PHILLIP: But, wait, no. Jeffrey Epstein was --
MALDONADO: It was his administration that put him in jail.
PHILLIP: Jeffrey Epstein was convicted in 2019.
MALDONADO: Right.
PHILLIP: Right, yes.
MALDONADO: Right.
PHILLIP: But, yes, okay, continue.
MALDONADO: So, his administration put him in jail, but nor here, nor there, we're here today. And the question is, MAGA wants everything released. They don't believe anybody is above the law. They didn't give a pass to Comey. They didn't give a pass to Hillary. They didn't give a pass to Fauci, and MAGA doesn't want to give a pass to anybody. So, it gets to the point --
PHILLIP: That's MAGA, but that's not Trump, right?
MALDONADO: No, I understand that. But the big issue here is MAGA. MAGA is the one that's divided on this.
PHILLIP: Right, yes.
MALDONADO: They're the ones that are making a big deal out of this. And, obviously, the president would like to talk about the big, beautiful bill and everything else, but it's not --
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: Let me also play what he would like to talk about, and it's not, spoiler alert, the big, beautiful bill. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They should focus on the fact that Larry Summers from Harvard, that Bill Clinton, who you know very well, and lots of other friends, really close friends of Jeffrey Summers should be spoken about.
You ought to be speaking about Larry Summers.
You ought to be speaking about Bill Clinton who went to the island 28 times.
You should focus on Clinton. You should focus on the president of Harvard, the former president of Harvard. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He's super clear. He wants all the information, but not about anybody -- about everybody but him, essentially.
BLOW: And the MAGA argument is very interesting to me, because, for years, they have nursed this conspiracy theories that there's a cabal, global cabal of people who are pedophiles and they're elites and most of them are liberals, right? It's correct.
MALDONADO: You are correct.
BLOW: Okay. The conspiracies, that's correct way to describe this conspiracy, I guess what you're saying. But what I'm saying -- no. What I'm saying is that the global cabal is the conspiracy. And so everyone was buying into this conspiracy and Republicans nursed that. Donald Trump himself nursed that. And so what they're asking the MAGA base now to say, is this thing that you have taken as an article of faith for at least a decade, now you must divest yourself of it because now this guy is nervous about it and he is acting like he's guilty.
They don't want to do that. They have -- this is a religion at this point for them and they don't want to let it go. So, this idea of like looping Fauci into it, that's not the same thing. No, but it's not even the same thing. It's not even the same thing, like they don't want to give him a break. No. This is a different set of things. They're the conspiracy theories. They article of faith --
PHILLIP: They are converting new people, it seems, to the conspiracy. And part of it is because of the conduct of Trump and his cabinet. You know, because they all came in saying, release it all, and then all of a sudden they won't.
I think it's actually made more Americans who previously weren't paying attention to this, maybe didn't really care about the conspiracy. Believe it. I mean, now it's nearly 70 percent of Americans say that there's no transparency on this issue.
BORELLI: I think to your point, Charles actually articulated the wedge in the MAGA movement that exists over this issue pretty well. You know, it's a rock in a hard place for the administration. I don't understand why. If there was any information on Donald Trump in that file that was salacious, rest assured it would have been leaked already. We have this book, note, right, that Donald Trump has allegedly wrote about Jeffrey Epstein 20 years ago. This is the kind of stuff that leaks out, right? Anything that can be used salaciously against Trump, we know it's going to come out, it's going to get leaked.
So, I'm of the opinion, why not release it? It's --
BLOW: I don't think you understand how reporting works, right? When things heat up, people go -- reporters go back to their sources and say, is there anything else? That's the reason that we got the note after Donald Trump and the DOJ basically said that there's no list. PHILLIP: I think Joe is -- I mean, he's pointing out something that I think is fundamentally right, which is the idea that even in the conspiracy that is now emerging, that this is a cover-up by -- or a conspiracy by Biden and Democrats. They are terrible at a conspiracy if they would have this in their possession and not use it, not use it when Trump was running in 2016, not use it when he was running in 2020. It just is beyond belief that they would not use it if it was in their possession. So, then what explains the secrecy? I just -- I think it is unanswered. It is unknown right now. What is causing the intense sensitivity inside the Trump administration about this.
HILL: Well, that's what is raising everybody's hackles about it is, I agree with you, Abby, like I think this was kind of a dormant issue, but his behavior suggests otherwise.
I would also say, I think there's a very big difference between how Democrats are receiving this information versus Republicans, I mean, the basis. It's like MAGA has made this part of their identity. Democrats have not. So, if it comes out tomorrow that Bill Clinton is all over these -- they're like he's caught dead in the water, like nobody's going to care like. It is like he did something awful, fry him, who cares, right? But that's not the case with them, is that they have made this part of their cause and that is why they are having a hard time letting it go.
Well, you can blame the Democrats all you want, but they're not the ones keeping this going.
MALDONADO: I'm not blaming --
HILL: Donald Trump is the one keeping this going. MAGA is the one keeping this going. They're the ones more personally invested.
MALDONADO: Democrats have four years to put it all out there and they didn't. Why?
PHILLIP: All right, coming up --
MALDONADO: If it's so important, put it out. Why? Why didn't they?
PHILLIP: Coming up next for us, we have new evidence that perhaps socialists are feeling empowered across the country after a win in New York. Are we seeing contagion taking hold?
Plus, Americans debate how to talk about Hulk Hogan after his death when legends have controversial legacies, we'll discuss what to do with them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:34:50]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. It's our summer Friday edition of the show. We're at the Food Network Kitchen in New York with the friends of our program and a fantastic chef with a special summer dish for us.
[22:35:01]
That is coming up. But first, is Minneapolis a New York state -- in a New York state of mind? Democratic socialists there think that they could get their candidate into the mayor's office, just like perhaps Zohran Mamdani might do right here in the Big Apple. This is another case where -- this was a surprise to the establishment. And now, people are sort of wondering, are Americans a little bit more friendly towards socialists than perhaps we thought? I don't know.
BORELLI: Well, there's a lot of similarities between New York City and Minneapolis. Here we have the Working Family Party and the Democratic Socialists actually organizing people on the far left. In Minnesota, you have the same thing. You have the DFL party doing the same thing, a very effective left-leaning party. I think this is more about Democrats not having a clear message and people like Zohran Mamdani and Omar Fateh filling in that gap.
A recent poll coming out yesterday said that by a margin of 10 points, voters said that Republican Party had a more clear plan to help America than Democrats. And when asked about their own party, 79 % percent of Republicans said their party had a plan, only 50 percent of Democrats said theirs did.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BORELLI: That indicates to me that there is a massive vacuum in Democratic leadership and it's people like Zohran Mamdani who, for better or worse, has a plan, he's got a plan.
PHILLIP: Yeah, yeah, I mean, to your point, Omar Fateh said in a quote, "I think nationally, the Democratic establishment has not done a great job of speaking to the needs of working people for far too long. He's obviously not alone in that view.
BLOW: Absolutely not. I think this is sending shockwaves through that establishment. They told these -- you think of what they told these kids. You're crazy, you said defund the police, you said, abolish ICE, you're the worst ambassadors, you have the worst slogans, please go sit in the corner and let the adults handle this.
And the adults lost. The adults didn't handle it. The adults now have no defense against what is coming with Donald Trump. And those kids look back on their ideas and say, maybe it was going a little too far, but the spirit of it was right, that this needs reform, that policing needs reform, that ICE needed some reforms. And now you have it unleashed on these immigrant populations and putting them in internment camps.
That is what they're looking at. And they're saying, I want someone to stand up for me who has a backbone, who doesn't back down when they are challenged on their positions, like Mamdani, like this guy. And that is what they're saying. And I think the Democratic establishment needs to listen to them and stop saying, we're the adults. You go sit in the corner. You have bad messaging. And we know what we're doing.
PHILLIP: Or at least maybe they're saying, just stand up for something --
HILL: Yeah, I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- even if it's not perfect, I guess.
HILL: I think that's part of it, is that it is the backbone aspect of people wanting to feel like people are really fighting for them. But I think the other part is that people have done some serious introspection about what it means to have a good life in this country.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HILL: And people have been conditioned to believe that the word socialism by itself is bad. We already have been operating under Democratic socialist principles. I mean, social security. Like all these big-tip programs that we understand help a lot of people. The policies that they push are popular. That is the thing, universal healthcare, everybody wants this.
Having all the, you know, what they want to do with public schools, like all these things that make people's lives better, people are on board with this, and especially attacking the income gaps between the wealthy and the poor.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HILL: That is where the sweet spot was for Mamdani.
PHILLIP: I'm going to let you in a second. I cannot wait for this poll to be updated in 2025, but in 2022, 36 percent of Americans said they had a positive view of socialism. That's actually down from where it was in 2019 when it was 42 percent. So, she's not wrong that there's a lot of -- a third of Americans are feeling positively about socialism.
MALDONADO: And look, we know who those third were. I mean, this is nothing new. Bernie Sanders ran as a socialist. I mean, he had larger crowds than anybody else. But the Democrat Party came out and said, no, you're not going to be our guy. So, Bernie has --couple of things. He's a believer. He believes in his issues and he's authentic.
What does Mamdani have? He's a believer. He's authentic on his issues, but they keep asking questions today about socialism that -- the grocery store -- he says that's correct. That's what I believe.
(CROSSTALK)
MALDONADO: So, look, that guy is a believer so that's why he won. And the guy in Minnesota -- same thing. He's a believer.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens with both of those races. Next for us, though -- when a controversial celebrity dies, how should they be remembered? We'll debate Hulk Hogan's legacy, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:44:16]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Hulk Hogan's legacy gets a split decision. The wrestling legend died this week at the age of 71, and some Americans posted messages of tribute, but others highlighted his controversies, including his past use of racial slurs.
One columnist writing, " -- his legacy isn't complicated. It's simple. Hulk Hogan's racism is character-defining no matter what came before it. And it's inextricable from any story there is to tell about the man himself, regardless of the memories he provided along the way." Jemele, you think that's fair?
HILL: I think it's very fair. Listen, people have complicated legacies. Everybody has done something that doesn't mean that it needs to be the headline. And I'm not -- but I think it's a little different with Hulk Hogan. Like a lot of young people of a certain time -- I was a Hulkamaniac. I loved Hulk Hogan. I used to practice the leg drop in my living room. Like, I was a really big fan.
And so, the level of disappointment and disgust that I felt hearing him not just use the N word repeatedly, but showing a particular disgust for black people. And I think it's fair to bring that up. It's fair that there are certain people that look at him dying and say, well, wait a minute. It's kind of like when the queen died. There were a lot of people who brought up, you know, sort of what was her role in the colonization of Africa. And I think that's fair.
Like, we can't look at these legacies and feel like just because somebody's died that we're obligated to only remember the positive things. Sometimes they do character-defining things in the process of that legacy that deserve examination, scrutiny.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HILL: And if some people prefer not to remember him fondly, I think it's their right.
PHILLIP: Yes. Okay. So, if you're not familiar with some of these controversies, here are a of them. He apologized for a racial slur after the WWE dropped him from their -- from his contract. He had a race rant over his daughter dating a black man. Jesse Ventura said that Hulk Hogan ratted him out when he tried to unionize wrestling. And "Hulk Hogan proves Trumpworld can't resist attacking Kamala Harris' racial identity."
BORELLI: I can't believe I missed the one opportunity in my life to have a Hulkamania shirt underneath this and tear it off at this very moment right now. But that said, you know, we all have complicated lives and we've all said things and done things that we regret. That's universal, I think, to humanity.
I think it is worth noting that his apology -- and again, you know, you don't know how sincere he was -- I wasn't there when he wrote it. But his apology was sincere in the sense that he took ownership of the things he said. So, I think that that is sort of something worth noting as we're talking about his legacy and whether he's worth remembering.
I remember him, as a kid growing up in the '80s, always having a positive message. Always having, you know, a -- great positive vibes for children young adults. So, I'm going to celebrate his legacy. I understand why people don't. But I do think it's important to remember that this is someone who -- who took that step of taking ownership of the bad things he did.
PHILLIP: I guess he didn't really have much of a choice because some of it wasn't part of that lawsuit.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: -- celebrity money.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Because some of it wasn't part of that lawsuit.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah.
BLOW: But here's the thing about apologies and taking accountability. You do that for yourself. I don't have to accept it. You have to do it for you because you need to get that out of your spirit. That's the same way of like trying to -- kind of to erase this from our memories. I don't have to do that. My -- you choose to celebrate him, you would like to have on a Hulkamania shirt. I would like to never be in a, you know, have anything to do with Hulkamania in my life because of what Jemele said.
I read the entire exchange that he was having about that boyfriend of his -- of his daughter. None of that -- that wasn't my kind, that wasn't -- he wasn't using the N-word in some sort of jovial way. It was really derogatory, not just about him, but about all black people. He used the N-word with the S on it.
All black people. Am I racist, he says at one point. Yes I am, to a certain degree. F, N-words. I'm done at that point. I'm checked out. You can wear as many Hulkamania shirts as you want to. I don't want to sit next to you when you wear it.
(LAUGHTER)
BLOW: I'm checked out.
PHILLIP: I mean, a positive message, but also all of that other stuff. First of all, I mean, a lot of people might say, let's not even talk about this. He just passed away, what have you. But he's a public figure. I mean, do you think it's fair to bring this up? MALDONADO: You know, people are always going to bring things up like
this, Abby, and you choose to either accept it and talk about it or you choose not to. There's no secret. I mean, humans are very complex people. And sometimes we make mistakes. Sometimes we say things that we wish we wouldn't have said and we do apologize or some people just don't apologize and they move forward. They don't care.
But I want to choose the legacy of Hulk -- like you brought it up at the beginning. I mean, this icon, this wrestler who brought all these young individuals to wrestling. And now that he's passed, people are going to question it. For me, he's always going to be a legend. He's going to be the "Holster", the "Hulkamania", all that stuff.
And Charles has his choice to be against that -- and I respect you immensely for that, Charles. But for me, he's a legend. I want to celebrate him. I've had a lot of positive feedback in my social media on "Holster" and may he rest in peace.
PHILLIP: Can I just play -- I thought this was interesting. This is an ESPN reporter who wrote a book about professional wrestling and he framed it this way. I'm curious what you all think about this framing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC RAIMONDI, ESPN SPORTS REPORTER: One of the things that's complicated about wrestling is, you know, where does the character end and the real person begin? You know, we're talking about a guy named Hulk Hogan -- that wasn't his real name.
As you mentioned at the top, was Terry Bollea. So, I would say that Terry Bollea probably made a lot of mistakes in his life, probably lot of things that he probably regretted at the end.
[22:50:01]
And -- but Hulk Hogan as a character, there's no doubting the legacy of what he was able to do for the professional wrestling business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not just him, right? There are plenty of people. There's Bill Cosby, the man, and then the character that he played.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: I mean, this is a common problem that we find ourselves in as a society with these people who are deeply flawed.
HILL: What is the -- the sort of old attitude? Talk about separating art from artists. I mean, there's plenty of musicians that have done horrible things and have exposed themselves as being horrible people. We often grapple with, what does that leave me in terms of how I feel about the music? I mean, you know the name that comes to mind that I don't need to say. (CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: R. Kelly, Michael Jackson --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: And -- I know. I'm not, either.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Yes.
PHILLIP: You could go on and on.
HILL: Yeah, there's a lot of people --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Even Ozzy Osbourne who died this week.
HILL: Correct.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: And most recently, Puff Daddy, where you're dealing with like, what they might have meant to a time in your life versus the man or the person they exposed themselves to be. As I said, like I think that this is the part about legacies that is pretty much universal. Like, a lot of them are complicated. There are going to be very few people who pass away where we can say 100 percent, that person was a standup person all the time.
HILL: But there is a difference between mistakes, and there's a difference between character. And I think what Hulk Hogan exposed to us was character, was a deep character flaw. Like, it would have been one thing if he mistakenly used this slur, but he doubled down in such a way that it leads me to believe that he did not even care for the existence of black folks.
Like that's -- that was the difference. And that is why when you see him parading around the way that he was and being celebrated by the Republican Party, it just -- it just don't sit right. Like that's not the same hope that I grew up with.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We - -we have to leave it there. But thank you for that conversation. Next for us, the panel is going to give us their night caps. They're going to tell us what franchise should never, ever be rebooted, inspired by some entertainment news. And Chef Liza is coming up -- Liza, excuse me, is coming up with some real nightcaps for us. Don't go anywhere. Here she is. Yay. The moment we've been waiting for.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:49]
PHILLIP: We're back and we're here with Liza Zaneski, the supervising culinary producer here at the Food Network and the Cooking Channel. So, tell us what we are eating. It's so good. We've been digging in during the break.
LIZA ZENESKI, SUPERVISING CULINARY PRODUCER, FOOD NETWORK: Oh, good. So, this is our "Summer Gnocchi" -- Gnocchi, which is a potato dumpling with a medley of mushrooms and sweet summer corn with some fresh basil. Very summery, fresh, buttery.
PHILLIP: It's so good. Good. It's perfect.
HILL: Yeah.
PHILLIP: And you've paired it for some of us with white wine --
ZENESKI: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- those of us who drink.
ZENESKI: Yeah, I feel like it goes well -- actually, the wine you're drinking is Vermintino which is Italian wine, and I think perfect light, summery, acidic, I think, great to kind of compliment.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, it's a little sweet and peppery but it's so good.
ZENESKI: Yeah. Yeah.
PHILLIP: All right. So, that Q.R. code on your screen will give you this incredible recipe. And also for our nightcaps we are seeing a lot of reboots of older movies and TV shows -- surprise, surprise -- including "Happy Gilmore", "Devil Rears Prada", "Naked Gun". So, what's something so perfect that they should never ever try to reboot? Chef, you're first.
ZENESKI: I grew up in New York City. I'm a very big fan of Scorsese, of course. So, I don't think any of his films should ever be rebooted, specifically "Goodfellas". So, that's my answer. I'm going to go with that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, yeah.
HILL: That's true.
PHILLIP: That's a good answer.
HILL: My answer would have been "Coming to America", but they did that already.
PHILLIP: What?
HILL: It's "Coming to America" two.
PHILLIP: Oh, you're right.
HILL: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Oh, I thought you mentioned that like a real 2025 reboot?
HILL: No, no. I'm saying that, like, that --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HILL: I thought that was the most perfect comedy ever made and then they went to be making it. So, my answer would probably be "Casablanca" because I think it's the most perfect film ever made and I would never hate -- I would never want to see this remade again.
PHILLIP: Yeah, same.
MALDONADO: For me. Abby, it's one of the iconic movies I grew up with. I was a young boy. My mom and my dad took me to the drive-in. We still had drive-ins. It was "Jaws" -- to see "Jaws". They tried to do some reboots, but nothing.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MALDONADO: The suspense, the music, it was Steven Spielberg's first movie.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
MALDONADO: I think it's iconic. It's -- please don't even try to reboot it. Don't remake it. Leave it alone. It's a great movie.
PHILLIP: Charles.
BLOW: So, for me, perfect is too high a bar. So I'm just going with Comedy, which is "Boomerang", because it's hilarious, and I don't worry about the intention.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: The "Boomerang" is also, yeah, I totally agree on that one. Joe?
BORELLI: I'm going with "Rudy". It was my favorite movie as a kid.
(LAUGHTER)
BORELLI: I still cry. When you hear the music, I cry. My wife makes fun of me. We went to Notre Dame for the first time last fall, and I videotaped it. And you hear on the videotape my wife saying, are you freaking crying? (LAUGHING)
PHILLIP: Look, I mean, isn't that, you know, we as consumers don't want remakes or want so many remakes or is it that, you know, the studios or whatever are just so risk-averse they don't want to create anything new?
HILL: Yeah, I think that is part of it. Yes, is that especially the movement in Hollywood now is that it's -- very few people who want to take a chance on doing something new. And so, it seems easier to lean into the nostalgia. But these movies, we also have to consider the time that they were in. Like that's hard to duplicate.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
[23:00:00]
HILL: Like those -- those jokes and those -- that doesn't land the same as it would today. So --
PHILLIP: Yeah.
HILL: I prefer that they would stay away from the --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, I want to -- I feel like there was so much great talent in the era of all the movies that you all talked about.
UNKNOWN: Of course.
PHILLIP: I don't want to be an old head, but I feel like it's not quite the same as it used to be. All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media-- X, Instagram, and TikTok. In the meantime, "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
