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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
FBI Releases New Video and Images of Person of Interest; FBI Releases Video of Suspect's Getaway in Kirk Killing; FBI Pleads With Public for Help in Manhunt for Kirk's Killer. Officials Release New Video of Charlie Kirk's Shooter. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 11, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): -- I would encourage you to ignore those, to turn off those streams and to spend a little more time with our families.
[22:00:08]
We desperately need some healing. We'll have more to say about that in the days and weeks to come. More than anything, we are going to catch this person.
Last thing I will just say is we've been working with our attorneys, getting everything that we need, affidavits ready, so that we can pursue the death penalty in this case. And that will happen here in the state of Utah.
Again to the public, to those who are grieving, thank you for your prayers. I know we are feeling those prayers. I know the Kirk family is feeling those prayers as well. We pray that God will bless our nation at this very dark time. We can start healing by finding this perpetrator and holding him accountable, and we need your help to do that.
Thank you.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: I am Abby Phillip, and you've been listening to the FBI give an update on the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's assassin.
Here are a few headlines that we learned just in the last few minutes. There is still no suspect identified in Kirk's killing. They have also released some new video and new images of this person of interest. That video shows the subject jumping from the roof of that building down to the ground. And they're pleading now with the public for help, saying that the tips that they're getting are rivaling the Boston bombings in terms of the number of them that are coming in.
The governor also pleaded with the public to stay off social media, warning that traffic from overseas is also adding to disinformation and confusion in this situation, but we're showing you there that video. And this has been a crucial element of this investigation. He jumps down from not a close distance. So, he hits the ground and then starts running toward the road, enters a wooded area, which is where they later found the weapon that was used in the shooting.
John Miller, listening to that and also just hearing where we are in this investigation, what do you make of how close they really are to identifying this person and then tracking them down?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So. I'll go by the Mangione case, where Brian Thompson, the head of UnitedHealthcare, was killed. Remember, in that case, they were nowhere in terms of identifying a suspect. They had a guy with a mask. They released some pictures, then they had a shot of his eyes. And then they had a shot of him without the mask, but a baseball hat covered most of his face. And then someone in a McDonald's in Pennsylvania recognized him.
Now, that might have happened that day or might have not happened, but the point is, where they are, they're getting leads in. Some of the leads have looked great. Last night, they were onto somebody who they thought was a likely suspect, who washed out. They had a person in custody earlier that evening who they had to release.
This is the fluidity of these cases where the leads come in and you run them out, and then you go on to the next one. You triage them for the ones that look likely. But you're waiting for that call from the public who says, yes, I know those shoes, I know that guy, and he's, you know, walking with a limp today. Maybe he hurt himself during that jump. But I know he's a shooter and I know this. I mean, that could be happening right now.
The purpose of tonight's press conference was to put out that video, not because you can identify him that from that video, it was to garner more interest, garner more play, get more eyes on those photographs that come with the video. They're trying to stir the pot because they're waiting for that call.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, they had this press conference scheduled for a little bit earlier in the day and it's been postponed, I mean, actually now almost six hours since they maybe more than six hours since they last said that they were going to have one, saying that the developments were coming rapidly. Do you see a difference between what we know today based on what they said and what they knew perhaps yesterday evening?
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think the big thing right now is the video, right? So, now they have this description. They have the visual of the suspect.
They walk through -- in this press conference, they walk through very specific details of the hat, the details of the hat, the details of the shirt, the details of the shoes. Why? Because something like that is going to stick out in somebody's mind and go, wait a minute, that guy has a converse sneakers. He's acting a little weird. I'm going to make a call.
So, crowdsourcing information by law enforcement is a common tactic, right? But the challenge right now is we heard them talk about just the amount of tips that they're getting. The challenge is volume and velocity of these tips coming in. Every single one of them has to be reviewed, researched and adjudicated as to, is this a valid lead, is this actionable?
[22:05:01]
Again, if you think about the volume, that is a monumental task right now for the FBI and local law enforcement to do that. But it's that needle in a haystack. It's that one person in the McDonald's that says, I think I see this suspect. And that's where they can action off of it.
PHILLIP: We also have with us Andrew McCabe, a former FBI deputy director. Andy, I wonder what you think of the progress of this investigation so far. They don't have an identity of this person, and they are, according to both Jonathan Wackrow and John Miller, seeming to really put a lot of this on the public at this point. I mean, is that appropriate for an event like this and given the information that you believe that they might have?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, I mean, I think it's entirely appropriate. I think it's -- history has shown us it is the most effective way. And the idea is you need to get the largest number of eyeballs on those pictures in that video that you possibly can. And the more content you put out in terms of still photographs, but more particularly of videos, the more likely you are that it's going to get picked up by more and more social media feeds. People are going to put it out there. It's going to get in front of, you know, just legions more people.
And you incrementally increase your odds of getting the kind of identification that Jonathan just talked about. Someone, a neighbor, someone who worked in a coffee shop where this guy walked into, someone, some random person's going to be like, I saw someone who had that T-shirt and those sneakers on, and they're going to make a phone call in. That's how crowdsourcing works.
I think the team seemed to be a little bit reticent about going all-in on the crowdsourcing theory. If you remember yesterday, they were saying, well, we have technologies that we can use to identify the photograph. Those were likely facial recognition and kind of identification software, A.I.-driven software that different law enforcement organizations use today. I think they probably tried those things and they didn't work, because you clearly don't have like a super identifiable, you know, full facial photograph to work with.
So, now the next best strategy is crowdsourcing. And if you're going to crowdsource, you got to go all-in. You got to put the best photos you have out, you got to put video out. Things are going to really compel people look at it. And today, by highlighting those details in the press conference, they're really giving the public some kind of, you know, meat to chew on here to think about those, the baseball hat with the triangle on it, you know, the T-shirt, which we've all seen many times now.
So, hopefully, this could break something open. With as little as they had to work with in the immediate aftermath of this tragedy. I feel like they have made some pretty remarkable progress today. So, for instance, the video, you see the guy coming off the side of the wall there, he seems very confident in his ability to go over the side of a wall of a very high building. He's hanging on by two hands and then one hand before he drops. That's the kind of thing that someone who has like rock climbing experience, which is very common in Utah. That's the kind of thing that someone who has that kind of experience would do, would feel comfortable doing.
So, like if I'm -- if I were ordering investigators around right now, I'd be like, start hitting up local rock climbing clubs, rock climbing communities, like get these photographs out in front of those people and see if this is someone who they might recognize.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's such an interesting observation. And I think you're right. I mean, that doesn't -- I think for a regular person might look like a distance that you don't want to try, but he seemed very confident about trying it.
I wonder, Andy, two things that they talked about. There's potentially a hand print or impression and a foot impression. You also have the weapon. What would they be able to learn from a hand impression and a foot impression? And is it surprising to you that there's no I.D. that might have come from that weapon?
MCCABE: Actually not, because contrary to popular kind of belief, it's very hard to get fingerprints from weapons. Weapons have all kinds of different surfaces on them, and they are manipulated, obviously, by people's hands. And so that process can kind of just -- has a kind of an effect of like destroying like the pure quality of fingerprints. So, typically, firearms are not a great source of fingerprints.
But if you notice, they talked about the -- when they discussed the palm issue, they referred to it as a palm print.
[22:10:03]
And when they talked about the forearm, they said a forearm impression. So, the forearm impression is interesting because it tells you about the position of the body when that impression was made. And that position is similar to the position that a shooter would take when they are lying in what we call -- snipers called the prone position, where your body weight is on your forearms. So, that's consistent.
The palm print is interesting though. They mentioned the palm print in the context of when he went over the side of the roof. A palm print can actually give you the same sort of identifying information as a fingerprint because it's obviously the same thing. It's just different part of your hand. So, if they have that, it may not currently be in the system to be able to identify who this guy is now, but it is the kind of thing that you could use later to confirm that a person who you have come across in are interviewing is actually the guy you're looking for.
PHILLIP: Yes, it's fascinating. Juliette Kayyem, a former Homeland Security official, is also with us. Juliette, I want to ask you about this figure. I mean, we basically have the sort of impression of a person. Maybe this is a younger person, perhaps college age. This is someone who wore a T-shirt that just it seems likely to have helped him blend into this environment. It's got almost like an American flag on it, an eagle on it.
What does that tell you about anything? Does it tell you anything about this man?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, like everyone else on the panel, this is someone who thought through how the day would unfold, not simply where the killing would take place in terms of where he placed himself, but obviously this rather successful exit. I am not alone in being surprised that we do not have him yet, or even a name because the picture has been out for a bunch of hours now. And the glasses to me are quite -- if you knew him, you would recognize him. But he wanted to get in with the crowd and yet separate from the crowd to be able to perform or to assassinate.
What's important now is time for two reasons. Our law enforcement analysts, you know, talk about the trail going cold, or he may be in other parts of the country. For political violence purposes, this arrest is necessary. What happens in that gap of time between the killing, and this is a mere criminal who is now going to go before court, is what we're seeing and what the governor, I thought, was very sophisticated in mentioning, which is a lot of crazies, but a lot of foreign entities are using this as a way to amplify hate, suggests that he's, you know, pro-trans or, you know, whatever narrative they want to get us upset.
And there are people who are urging his success, innovating law enforcement, it makes law enforcement look not great, it makes the state look not organized, it makes the FBI look like they don't know what they're doing. And so time is also of the essence in terms of the oxygen that he may be getting in terms of his character, his ideology, whatever. And that is also why the clock is ticking for the FBI. They know this. Political violence begets political violence regardless of the motivation, which we don't know now of the person, the ATF is now walking rather convenient explanations for who the shooter's motivation is. And we now know they have no idea the motivations or the person. So, we get -- that's where the focus should be.
PHILLIP: Yes. Ed Lavandera is in that room where that presser just occurred. Ed, I'm curious about your observations of what was said, what was not said, and who was in the room tonight?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, a large number of law enforcement and support staff for, you know, the principal leaders there that you saw at that press conference. I was struck by the fact that we didn't hear directly from the FBI director that we'd heard so much about him attending here and being on the scene. So, I was a little surprised by that, but, you know, the governor taking the lead.
And I was struck by, you know, how many times he kind of reinforced this idea that they will catch this person that they are already preparing the paperwork and the affidavits to bring the charges and the death penalty against the way they described this evil person. So, all of that continues.
But one of the other things that we were struck by and watching that video and the suspect jumping off the roof and then the video cut off, that he started making his way back toward a street, and it was back toward the area in the neighborhood where we spent the entire day trying to report from canvassing the neighborhood, talking to as many people as we could.
[22:15:19]
And this video kind of reinforces that we were kind of in this area. That was definitely a place where this suspect managed to get off of the campus, and from that road and exactly how he left the area is not clear. But if he had some sort of vehicle there or somebody waiting for him, it just wasn't clear.
But we spoke with a construction worker who was working at a home who described that someone on the work site there had seen someone matching the description of this suspect coming up through the back of a home, up this long driveway, and had told someone that he was leaving the -- he had just witnessed the shooting that he was scared, he wanted to get out of the area, so they let him walk through.
And it wasn't until moments later that he was one of the first people to emerge from the campus, and then later other people started emerging from the campus and they said, you know, we didn't put two and two together at the time that this person was way ahead of the pack in terms of trying to escape and elude the campus.
Now, whether or not this was actually the suspect, we have no idea at this point. But this neighborhood, we know that investigators have been focusing on intently it's that wooded area behind the home where we were at, where the firearm was found. And there are a couple of different avenues to get out of that neighborhood.
And then it's actually a very quick, maybe like 30-second drive to get onto the interstate, which is on the western edge of this campus, so you could quickly leave the area that way while all those confusion and chaos is ensuing on the campus. And it doesn't seem like there was a huge law enforcement presence. They said early on that there were six campus police officers there on the scene, as well as Charlie Kirk's private security.
So, outside of that area, I think that video kind of shows that it wasn't like there was a perimeter of officers and security guards kind of standing on the perimeters of the campus there as all of this was unfolding, the focus was inside the courtyard area where the shooting had unfolded. Abby?
PHILLIP: Yes. Back in the room here in New York, Jonathan Wackrow that neighborhood is, as Ed Lavadnera just pointed out, going to have a lot of information embedded in it, doorbell cameras, people who were working in homes as he spoke with that man who may have seen the shooter. But would they know by this point where he headed once he got through that neighborhood? Because if you've got a bunch of houses, maybe cameras on a lot of those houses, do you think that they have a sense of what direction he went in?
WACKROW: Well, I think that they, because they know where he entered into that neighborhood, again, that's your starting point. You're going to go to those, you know, residents that are the closest to that. Hopefully, they have, you know, either home security cameras, you know, doorbell cameras, and you're going to start to try to piece that together.
But that gets more difficult if the suspect is serpentining in and out of the buildings. You know, the likelihood of him just walking down the center of the street and all these doorbell cameras are looking at it starts to reduce the deeper you get into that, because he knows that, you know, time is of the essence. He's trying to create as much distance from the attack site as possible to try to, you know, successfully evade law enforcement.
You know, so they most likely know where he entered in maybe the first few residences where he may have turned, so they have a notional direction of travel. But, you know, we -- again, it's just how they're going to stitch those videos together. And there could be hundreds and hundreds of video feeds that you have to go through every second. Because if someone's running, it's not like a long video, it's a fraction of a second. They have to stitch that together to get a reel that they can actually then blend into what they already have to then really define the movement.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, potentially, tons of tons of video to go through, 7,000 tips. John Miller. I mean, where do you even begin?
MILLER: I think that's a good thing. It's both of those are good things.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MILLER: Tons of video to go through. And, you know, as Jonathan said, you know, you do that video canvas until you don't see him anymore. And then when you don't see him anymore, you take the canvas in two other directions on whatever that cross street and says, well, maybe he made a left or a right until you pick him up there.
You want to get him as far as you can get him until you don't have him anymore, because that might take you to the vehicle he jumped in.
PHILLIP: Yes. I was going to say, I mean, knowing whether there was a vehicle that he jumped in is super important. And I'm not sure I'm -- that hasn't been publicly revealed. But if they know that, that would certainly be a big step.
MILLER: Yes. And I mean, then, you know, there's the possibility of, well, did he go to the interstate? And then there's the second question, which is, we know the university parking lots had license plate readers, but the interstate might, the state police would know where they are.
[22:20:01]
And, you know, if that vehicle, even if you didn't have the plate from the video, if it passed an LPR, you would get that as a piece of data.
The point is, absent somebody giving them a great suspect that they arrest and confesses tonight, they'll do the hard slog no matter how many days or weeks that takes.
PHILLIP: Until the right tip comes in? Because, essentially, that is --
MILLER: Think about it this way, look at the investigation to the Utah student murders.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MILLER: Right? No real witness except who saw a dark figure ;eave the house, no motive, no connection between the victims, and they were able to piece that together with tiny bits of evidence that then came together with so many different techniques, from the video to the license plate, to the cell phone towers, to the video of the car stop from a police officer months before of a person who had already changed the license plate. These can come together with one bold call, like Luigi Mangione, from somebody in a restaurant and the mom starting to get suspicious in San Francisco, that that might be her boy, or it can come together through a thousand pieces that finally fit together like a puzzle.
PHILLIP: And Juliette had said it. I mean, if you look at those photos, if you know that man, you know him, that seems clear. I mean, we can't see his face and his eyes, but his demeanor, his height, you would know that person.
Andy McCabe, I just want to ask you cash Patel, the FBI director, flew to Utah today but did not speak, and this is after a couple of days of several tweets that really got ahead of what they actually had in terms of a suspect or a subject in this investigation. What do you make of the fact that we didn't hear from him tonight?
MCCABE: Yes, you know, that one's really hard to figure out. There are many good reasons why you wouldn't go, if you're the director, you would not go out to the scene of an ongoing crisis, post-crisis investigation. I think that's many the reasons why, you know, typically directors don't do that.
One of the reasons not to do that is because the presence of the director imposes a huge burden on the field office. There's all kinds of arrangements that have to be made. There's all kinds of security concerns that arise, transportation becomes very complicated, and that's the last thing you want to do to the field office, while they're in the middle of investigating a critical incident.
So, again, it's strange to go out there under those circumstances. Why he went and then did not say anything at the press conference, I really don't know. I'm a bit at a loss to understand like, what was the purpose of going out there. If you're there, you know, you probably want to at least make very perfunctory comments about appreciating the hard work of the men and women that are doing the investigation and, of course, thanking your partners for the sort of access and the relationship that you have.
So, really, I don't even know how to kind of guess at that at this point, honestly.
PHILLIP: Yes, I am curious. So, Jonathan Wackrow, do you have any thoughts about that?
WACKROW: No. It is odd, right? Because you announced that both the deputy director and the director were there. They came out. As they walked the site, they assessed it. Now, you're sitting at a press conference in front of the nation and there's silence.
Again, it's just -- it's something that again --
PHILLIP: And that burden of the director and the deputy director in the field office, I mean, we were just talking about how much they have to do, how many tips they have to go through. Helpful, unhelpful, in this moment?
WACKROW: It can be detractive, right? It's not additive to the investigation.
MILLER: There is that risk that when your boss' boss and your boss' boss' boss show up together, that the distraction is we're going to put a lot of effort into briefing the bosses about everything --
PHILLIP: The briefings were definitely mentioned tonight.
MILLER: About everything we know and everything we're doing and answering their questions. That's time when the leadership is focused on briefing their bosses instead of leading the investigation. It can be very distracting. When they canceled the noon press conference because of fast developments in the case and announced that the director was flying out, I speculated two things. One, there's a break in the case and they're going to announce a name or an arrest, or, two, that there isn't a break in the case, and they wanted to bring the power and voice of the FBI director to generate more coverage, which just makes it odder that he did come, he did show up, dressed in an FBI raid jacket and jeans and then didn't speak. It's just --
WACKROW: And it was a lost opportunity. It was a real lost opportunity that, you know, because they walked through, that he was part, like reviewed the investigation and everything like that, that was the moment to reassure the public from the director's point of view.
[22:25:01]
If you're there, tell the public what you saw, the activities of local law enforcement, you know, the coordinated effort between federal, state and local entities all working in unison, under a unified command. That was the moment, a leadership moment, and I think it was just a lost opportunity by the director to actually be there and, you know, show some leadership in the moment.
PHILLIP: Yes. Juliette Kayyem is still with us. Juliette, you mentioned the sort of foreign influence element to this. This is a moment of incredible tension for this country. And it strikes me that particularly on the right, there's been a skepticism about this idea of foreign influence and even this word, disinformation. I was surprised to hear it uttered at this press conference. But it must be so serious that it was raised. I mean, what do you make of that?
KAYYEM: It is. And I want to sort of pick up on the narrative of what is Kash Patel, the director of the FBI, whose biography is not consistent with the biography of former FBI directors, and who has made fundamental mistakes as an FBI director over the last 24 hours, getting ahead tweeting an investigation being wrong, focusing our attention on an Arab American or some crank in the crowd, all of it distracting us from the immediate goal.
So, compare that to Governor Cox, who I think didn't know very well, I think has been re a remarkable American leader in this moment. And I think you saw some interesting things in this press conference, you first saw Governor Cox essentially separate the state from the federal government at least in terms of it, some at various stages. He said the state is looking at this, is worried about disinformation. He leads a state. He has people who depend on him, all voters all citizens of Utah.
And I thought that was interesting and I don't know if that explains why Patel was not asked to speak. It is weird that he was there and wasn't and wasn't speaking. It may be that the governor wanted to address this issue.
The second is, of course, the substantive issue. This is -- look, I mean, if you're China or Russia and you're looking at this country right now, and you know exactly what happened yesterday with the assassination of Charlie Kirk, this is a bonanza time for you. People are angry. The president is directing our focus on a theory of the case that we have, that it is just not true at this stage. We don't know who the guy is. We don't know what his motivation is. There's allegations about various groups and identities and sexual identities that are just not true. And that's where the Chinese and Russians fill the space with confirming these narratives that pit Americans against each other.
So, in this time, when we are looking for leadership, it is important to commend the governor of Utah in terms of him setting us on in the right direction, which is the focus is the violence. What the motivations were maybe confused, they might be right, they might be left. It doesn't matter. There was a political assassination. And that is the focus and Governor Cox has steered the state. And therefore those of us watching him, I think, tremendously well in this really difficult time for everyone. And I think most Americans forget Twitter. Most Americans know both the moral bankruptcy of this assassination and also how scary it is for the American political system.
PHILLIP: And it's worth noting that Governor Cox, you know, he quoted Charlie Kirk and saying, you know, when things get heated, log off, go -- you know, as young people say, touch grass, go talk to your family. Go outside. And I think that that was a message, not just for Utah, that was a message for the entire nation that he knows is watching.
And as we continue to monitor this investigation, which is very much still ongoing, this man is on the loose, John Miller.
And I want to ask you, it's interesting to me that somebody who would commit such a cold-blooded murder is now out into the world, but you don't hear those officials warning that there's a danger to the public, that they should be on the lookout for someone who is dangerous. I mean, he could still be armed. He could have a pistol in that backpack or whatever it is. But is that because the profile of the person who would do an assassination, he had one objective, and they don't think that he's likely to do more violent damage?
[22:30:06]
MILLER: That's exactly right. You have a killing that was most specifically targeted to a single individual. And you have that happen in the era of the active shooter, shooting up a school, shooting up a mall, indiscriminate targets. This was extraordinarily discriminate. He was after Charlie Kirk and a lot of planning went into this.
So, the warning to the public is there is still a killer on the loose, but there is no indication that the killer was looking to kill anybody but his target. Now, the discussion that we've heard, the rest of the day is from other people in that realm of politics saying, now I am nervous about my public opinions, which is perfectly valid.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean a lot of people are scared.
MILLER: You know, Congress talks about, well, we want security details.
PHILLIP: Yeah. Yeah.
MILLER: But if Jonathan knows better than anybody, okay, so that's sixth person for 540 members of Congress, which comes out to 3000 something. You'd have to double the size of the Capitol Police to be the equivalent of the Philadelphia Police Department.
PHILLIP: But we also, I mean, we also have all of these hoax calls --
MILLER: Swatting --
PHILLIP: -- swatting calls into HBCUs, into the Naval Academy in Annapolis.
MILLER: The large numbers today.
PHILLIP: This is -- this is typical, right? We've seen this a lot but there is -- it feels like a heightened risk of copycats or retribution. And If I were not just a member of Congress but anybody in the public sphere right now, they are afraid. And is the FBI, our law enforcement responding to that in any way? JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely. They're
very concerned about it. And when you think about, you know, just how we as a society have normalized violence, right? And we became comfortable with that normalization of violence.
Now, we're normalizing killing. And we're living in this, this, you know, since Luigi Mangione, we're living in this era of the assassination culture where, you know, targeted killings tied to ideology have become almost the norm. This is the third or fourth assassination attempt that we've seen, and it's not going away.
And just going back to, you know, that there's a killer on the loose. This individual went all the way through the pathway of violence and transcended into actually killing somebody. So, he's done it once. There's no reason we shouldn't believe, if pressured and if cornered, he won't lash out and kill again.
PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, stand by for us. Coming up next, the President blaming the left for the murder despite the absence of a suspect or a motive. Plus, lawmakers are canceling events out of fear for their safety as both parties now point the finger over political violence. This is CNN's special live coverage.
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[22:37:15]
PHILLIP: Tonight, Donald Trump puts the blame to the political left for Charlie Kirk's assassination, even as the manhunt for his killer continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Are you concerned about your own safety?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Not really. I'm really concerned for our country. We have a great country. We have a radical left group of lunatics out there, just absolute lunatics. And we're going to get that problem solved. I'm only concerned for the country. Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: As we were just discussing, that is the narrative that really kind of leans into the divide that, now we know from the governor of Utah, the foreign entities are really interested in exploiting. And -- but for President Trump, it's not surprising, but in this moment, it feels like pouring gasoline on the fire in a way.
JOHN AVLON, FORMER CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It is. I think Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, has tried to set the right tone where we need to look to the better angels of our nature. We need to remember that we are not enemies, but friends. We are in a dangerous place, this country. Political violence is rising.
And President Trump has a responsibility to the office to try to unite rather than divide. When he puts the focus solely on the left, after pardoning the January 6th folks, for example, you get an asymmetry that's more likely to encourage violence than to tamp it down. We need to stop this. Political violence is always unacceptable and one of the dangerous places in the country. We need to wake up.
PHILLIP: Congressman, there were so many tensions on the Hill this week over this, and it really just showed there's a lack of trust, there's a lot of anger, and there's understandable anger and sadness, especially from your conservative colleagues. I don't know if you've been on the Hill today, earlier today
REP. TONY GONZALES (R) TEXAS: I was.
PHILLIP: -- or I mean, is that improving any or is it still as tense as it seems?
GONZALES: Well, one, you got to understand that Congress is a microcosm of the United States, right? So, there's a lot of tension within the United States. I would -- I would argue that the President is right here and he's right for blaming the left. Because just look at the facts, the facts are the school shooter in Minnesota was a left-wing lunatic. The facts are the school shooter in Tennessee was a left-wing lunatic.
So, these, you know, the shooters are more and more becoming these radical leftists. So when the President says that he's not wrong, I can guarantee this. President Trump is going to hunt down and find the killer of Charlie Kirk. And if he's not dead already, he's going to bring him to justice. And we should all be rooting for him because this has rocked the foundation of our republic. When you don't have First Amendment rights, regardless of if somebody is left-leaning or right-leaning, it absolutely destroys the fabric of our nation.
[22:40:01]
PHILLIP: I just want to note, though, I mean, you cannot omit, just a couple of months ago, Democratic Minnesota state representatives were assassinated --
GONZALES: -- by a left-wing lunatic.
UNKNOWN: No.
PHILLIP: No. No, not by a left-wing lunatic. And so --
GONZALES: No.
PHILLIP: I do think that --- I think the point everybody is trying to make is that if we want to get to the bottom of violence -- political violence division and hatred that leads to violence that might lead to retribution if it -- this is not handled properly. Don't we have an obligation to talk to all of us, not just to talk to one part of the country?
GONZALES: I think that's what you saw the night, right? The reason why we had this press conference was to put everybody -- everybody's eyes to find this killer, right? And needed everybody regardless of of who was tuning in or not. The sooner we find this murderer, the better this country is. And if we don't find it, it'll be at a detriment to everybody.
AVLON: Sure.
ANA KASPARIAN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND HOST OF "THE YOUNG TURKS": Congressman, with all due respect, this country is hungry for leaders and you are an elected member of Congress, and no one's been apprehended yet. I understand what you're saying about political violence, and there has been political violence perpetrated by individuals who identify as on the left. But there's also been political violence perpetrated by those who are clearly on the right, as the attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband makes abundantly clear.
Please, I am begging you, lead, lead the country from your position of power and try to bring the temperature down. I knew Charlie Kirk personally.
GONZALES: Right.
KASPARIAN: Charlie Kirk and I disagreed on almost every political issue. But what I appreciated about Charlie Kirk is he provided a platform for people like me to speak to a completely different audience and make my case. And I appreciated that about him, and I would like it if members of Congress both on the left and right found a way to harbor those types of conversations both on the House floor, the Senate floor, and also on shows like this.
GONZALES: Well first off, if anybody is murdering -- if anybody is using a political rhetoric and using political violence to silence, there are people that they don't agree with, we should all be against that. We should all push towards curbing that, not just elected officials, but everyday individuals should also push for that.
And part of that is we got a whole -- one another responsible and accountable. We can't just say hello if it was somebody else's fault. All of us play a role in this. And look, I think the President is bringing us together. The fact that, you know, we forget -- we forget it's 9-11.
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: The President is further dividing the country with his rhetoric.
GONZALES: We forget it's the memorial day of 9-11 and where was the President? He was at Yankee Stadium today shaking hands, bringing life to it. I'm not a Yankees fan but you see that picture with him and all the Yankees baseball players --
KASPARIAN: He was also referring to the political left as radical lunatics.
GONZALES: He was at the U.S. Open.
KASPARIAN: So, he speaks from both sides of his mouth.
GONZALES: He was at UFC. The President has been very active and I appreciate him.
KASPARIAN: And since his election in 2016, the political rhetoric in this country is devolved further.
PHILLIP: Can I ask you, I mean, can I ask you to respond to that part of what she's addressing, which is what the President said? When -- I saw someone say this this week. When you hear people, usually online say, they did this, they did that, when we're talking about one man who is a lunatic shooter, criminal, that is so discordant to a lot of this country who is -- they're just normal people who are appalled by this.
But when you generalize an awful event like this to a whole half of the country as President Trump seemed to have done today, you're saying that that's bringing the country together, but a lot of people don't hear that.
GONZALES: What I'm saying is, sadly, there isn't just one incident. This isn't just on a decline. This is a more and more regular occurrence of where there is more and more political rhetoric that has turned into political violence and somebody is not here.
And that's somebody today, or you know, this week, is Charlie Kirk. Who is it going to be next? And the way we curve that out is not by just saying this isn't happening. It's by us going, there is a systemic issue that is happening in our country.
AVLON: Yes.
GONZALES: And instead of blaming one another --
(CROSSTALK)
KASPARIAN: It is happening. It is happening, and the fish rots from the head down.
AVLON: But I think the problem is you, Sir, as a congressman, just, you know, singled out leftist attacks and that of course leaves out things like the attack on the CDC just a few weeks ago. It leaves out lots of other text. I think the point is particularly appointed position responsibility particularly on the day like 9-11. There's no obligation not to try to get political the points, but to look at the broader cycle of to say we all need to step back --
(CROSSTALK)
GONZALES: I'm talking about facts.
(CROSSTALK)
AVLON: So am I, Sir.
GONZALES: I mean, look at, look at the school shooter in Minnesota. AVLON: Yeah.
GONZALES: One of the facts in that case --
AVLON: You don't -- apparently don't even recognize the facts around the assassination of the state legislatures.
GONZALES: Look at the fact - let's start with the alligator nearest to the boat which was the Minnesota school shooting, right?
[22:45:03]
And what I'm getting at is, these aren't just one issue.
AVLON: No.
GONZALES: They're growing.
AVLON: They're all connected. That is exactly right.
(CROSSTALK)
AVLON: That's why. When you particularly, as a member of Congress --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on one second.
(CROSSTALK)
AVLON: -- focus on one political side echoing that --
(CROSSTALK)
GONZALES: I just said there's no room for --
(CROSSTALK)
AVLON: And that is - what we keep in mind on 9-11.
(CROSSTALK)
GONZALES: I just said there's no room for any political rhetoric that turns into political violence.
AVLON: Hundred percent agree.
GONZALES: I didn't say left, right. It doesn't matter.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me just take one. Let me just take one second here. You know, we were talking about being in the arena of public life. Every single one of you, you, you, you, myself included, we're all here talking about politics. And now increasingly, that is becoming something that makes people afraid. I want play what Senator Kevin Kramer said about what the mood is on Capitol Hill among his colleagues about this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R) NORTH DAKOTA: I was thinking yesterday, you know, trying to drive out of the Capitol, off the plaza, you know, you're -- you've got a thousand people working their way on foot and we're very, very accessible. I like being accessible. But being accessible is starting to look like being vulnerable. And, so I think there's a lot of us that are concerned about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: "Being accessible is starting to look vulnerable." Do you feel that way or are you concerned about your own safety?
GONZALES: I am. I am concerned. And so are a lot of my colleagues that are concerned. But here's -- this is how you defeat evil. This is how you defeat terrorists. This is how you defeat people that try to change our way of life as you go right at them. This Saturday, guess what? We're having a campaign event. There'll be hundreds of people there in San Antonio. We're not going to back down. We're not going to be shy. We're not going to be silent. We're going to be vocal.
And I think everyone should be that whether it's a liberal view on the world or whether it's a conservative view on the world. We need to get back to having dialogue. And these people that are using political violence as their solution, they need to be the outliers --
AVALON: Sure.
GONZALES: -- not the mainstream. And part of that is us being -- the world has changed though, Abby. I mean, I'll give you a prime example. Why weren't there drones at this event? If there was one drone in the air, it would completely change our view on things. I mention that because I'm a cryptologist.
PHILLIP: You mean like a video?
GONZALES: A physical drone. If you put one drone in the air, all of a sudden, every rooftop is covered. I mention that because this isn't the first time there's been a shooter from a rooftop. I want it to be the last time. So, let's incorporate the technology into solving some of these problems, not just blaming one another for how we got here.
PHILLIP: There are a lot of questions about that, mean, including just, there were only six officers there, plus some private security. But the future is going to look very different for these types of events.
KASPARIAN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: I want you to all stand by for us. We have much more ahead. We'll continue this conversation right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:10]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. We were just discussing how to bring the country back from this ledge. Fundamentally, Ana, this is about whether we want to live in a society in which people can disagree and still live to tell the tale or not. And you've been in those arenas with Charlie Kirk himself. And if there's one thing that everybody kind of will say, whether they like what he had to say or not, he was on that college campus literally in that moment when he was shot, taking a question from somebody who did not like him.
KASPARIAN: That's right.
PHILLIP: Somebody who totally disagreed with him. And very few people are willing to subject themselves to that.
KASPARIAN: That's actually very true. And I do really appreciate that about Charlie Kirk. I appreciated the fact that he wanted to, again, provide a platform for people who disagree with each other to have civil debate. And I think what we have moved away from as a country is a shared identity as Americans, regardless of what your political views are.
You know, after the biggest and most tragic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on 9-11, the one thing that was different then compared to what's happening today is that Americans came together because they saw each other as fellow Americans. They had that shared identity. I don't know why we've moved away from that.
I don't know why we have like dug in our heels in all the different things that make us different. But we have to be able to live in this pluralistic society, respect one another, and accept the fact that we're to have political disagreements. It doesn't make you a bad person to disagree with someone.
AVLON: No, that's the essence of democracy.
KASPARIAN: Exactly.
AVLON: As a matter of fact. And part of that means recognizing you can disagree without demonizing people. But what's happening is dangerous. We've been through periods like this, the late 1960s and early '70s, there a lot of political violence.
KASPARIAN: Exactly. But you look back, today is 9-11. On 9-11, 2001, I was on the steps of City Hall. And you saw the way our country united. And we can't wait for man-made disasters to unite. But the problem is we are not uniting. After January 6th, our country did not unite. During COVID, our country did not unite.
So, we do need more leaders who stand up and say we need to focus on what unites us not what divides us. We can't demonize people we disagree with, and political violence is always wrong whether it's on quote,-unquote, your side of the aisle or the other side.
GONZALES: John, let me give an example of where this is working. Why am I here in New York? I'm in here in New York because there's a bipartisan congressional delegation that came here to D.C., I mean, came here from D.C. as part of the House Homeland Security Committee, both Democrats and Republicans, going and visiting the 9-11 memorial together.
Right now in Capitol Hill, you can't get Republicans and Democrats to be in the same elevator. More or less get us to travel with one another and spend this -- but I tell you what, that was the first time that I had visited that memorial. And it was somber, the emotions I went through. I spent 20 years in the military. You know, I remember 9-11 like it was yesterday. Like, less than a week later, I was in Afghanistan.
So, here was an area that really changed the whole scope of my life as did a lot of other veterans that served in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, to your point, it is happening. There are some bipartisan moments that are occurring, but there needs to be more --
AVLON: A lot.
GONZALES: -- and they also need to be more public.
PHILLIP: Yeah. And people need to be honest that they're happening because some people don't even want to admit it. And next for us, I want to talk about a disturbing revelation from the governor during that news conference that we just brought you about foreign actors in all of this discord.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:22]
PHILLIP: Back now with my panel. John Avlon, it strikes me that on 9- 11, we had an enemy from the outside. But when the discord is coming from the inside, it is a lot harder to unify.
AVLON: It is, but that's when we need to rise above. And we need to recognize that our autocratic adversaries overseas want our democracy divided. They want us divided and dysfunction in each other's throats. So, let's use that as something that can rally ourselves together again, to rise above this moment.
PHILLIP: Do you believe that? That they want to divide us?
GONZALES: Absolutely, they do. And how do we -- how do we get ahead of that? I think we got to listen -- we got to listen to Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk is, you know, the answer is from within.
[23:00:00]
The answer is put your phones down. Spend some time with your family. Go out, touch some grass. When you look at the best things in life, not just tearing each other down. When we get back to that individually, the country will be better off.
PHILLIP: Ana? KASPARIAN: I've noticed a lot of bot accounts on X, you know, purporting to be left-wingers saying inflammatory disgusting things, that being cited by people on the right as reason to go to war with the left. Please be careful with what you come across online. There are bots, they're not real people, and they're purposely being inflammatory to sow division.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you very much for joining us, and thank you for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
