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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
DOJ Preparing to Seek Indictment Against Trump Foe Comey; Trump, Allies Blame Left for Sniper Attack at ICE Facility. Democrats Blamed For Allegedly Demonizing ICE Agents After Shooting Incident; Jimmy Kimmel Show Is Back On Air. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 24, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the vengeance tour tries to beat the clock. The fed's near decision to charge James Comey before a deadline after the president told them to.
Plus, after a deadly sniper attack at an ICE facility, blame is fast, fault is furious.
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We got to stop it. And that starts, unfortunately at the very top of the Democratic Party.
PHILLIP: The right puts the left on trial after another tragedy.
Also, Donald Trump torpedoes a week's worth of arguments that his government wasn't involved in the silencing of Jimmy Kimmel.
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE: As I was saying before, I was interrupted.
PHILLIP: And, ah, the White House, a landmark of history, tradition, and now trolling. Trump's new walk of fame puts Joe Biden in the bull pen.
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Ben Ferguson, Kristin Davison, Adam Mockler, and Dan Abrams.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about. Justice may not be blind after all, especially when the president's enemies are in the line of sight. The feds are said to be nearing a decision on charges against James Comey accusing him of lying to Congress on the handling of the Russia investigation. The former FBI director has long said that he testified truthfully. The testimony happened back in 2020. And since the law requires any charge within five years, the DOJ now only has literally a few days before that deadline expires.
But here's the important fine print in all of this. This is coming after Donald Trump publicly demanded that his attorney general charge Comey and other political rivals.
Now, it's important to note, this is the same district in which Trump said that he fired a prosecutor for failing to find enough evidence against Letitia James, the attorney general in New York. Now, it's being run by one of Trump's former lawyers who has never prosecuted a case.
And, Dan Abrams, a case like this against Jim Comey, five years old, over an allegation of perjury, I would have to think that they would have to actually be able to prove that he did, in fact, lie, right?
DAN ABRAMS, CEO AND FOUNDER, MEDIAITE: Well, I don't know. I mean, look, there, there's no question that this is political and this is under pressure, but the more important question is, is there a crime, right, regardless of the motives, et cetera.
I've looked into all the statements that Comey made in front of Congress, and it's hard to figure out exactly which one they're going to be talking about where he supposedly didn't tell the truth. Because if it's specifically with regard to the Russia investigation, it's probably going to be something he said he doesn't recall and doesn't remember, and that doesn't ring a bell, those sorts of answers. As a legal matter, that's tough to win a prosecution in a perjury case when the answer was, I don't recall, or I don't remember.
Now, there are other statements that were made. Maybe that becomes the subject of it. But none of them seems rise the level of a crime. And remember, this isn't new, right? It's not just that this has been investigated, it's that the inspector general actually came out with a full report looking at what Comey said, what was his fault, what was McCabe's fault, et cetera. And some of that I.G. report is what's regularly cited by many on the right for the wrongdoing and the mistakes made by the FBI.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But it's not only can you prove it's a crime, because one of the things that the DOJ has to it -- it's in their memorandum, it's in their rules and regulations, you have to be able to not only sustain this charge and find them guilty in front of a jury, but this actually ask a more basic question as a lawyer is, is there even probable cause?
I mean, you have individuals right now who are lawyers, who were trial lawyers, who were prosecutors, who have been there for decades, who've written a memo to this individual, to this new -- to this new U.S. attorney stating that they don't even believe it's probable cause to arrest him or to bring charges.
So, to jump from probable cause to the ability to actually prove him guilty in front of a jury is a long jump. The fact is there is no daylight between Donald Trump and the Department of Justice, absolutely none. And that is a very, very dangerous precedent to set.
PHILLIP: It also probably doesn't help that he publicly said that he fired the U.S. attorney in that office for not prosecuting his political opponents.
[22:05:01]
He also then said that he thinks that they should be going after Comey, Adam Shifty Schiff, and Letitia faster because, in his view, time is of the essence. Trump is giving away the game here, but he might also be making prosecutors' lives more difficult.
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think we go back -- I think, Bakari, you probably said this, that Comey originally politicized the DOJ and FBI back in 2016. So Democrats have outrage now. We just need to calm down because you guys -- like you can't --
PHILLIP: They were outraged then, but to be fair, they were outraged then.
DAVISON: You can't pick and choose when you think he's honest or not. I mean --
ABRAMS: Let me ask a question about politicization, right? The claim is that Comey was out to get Trump, right, and he was politicized against Trump. If that were the case, how do you explain him opening up the Hillary Clinton investigation?
DAVISON: That came first.
ABRAMS: There are two parts to this question, two parts.
DAVISON: He couldn't go to this country club.
ABRAMS: Wait let me finish to two parts. Number one part is 11 days before the election, right, he reopens Hillary Clinton. Number two, maybe the most important point, the actual investigation, the Russia investigation into Donald Trump, doesn't get leaked. James Comey didn't leak it. No one at the FBI leaks it. If they're out to get Trump, have someone leak a little, something about this Russian investigation.
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: Donald Trump literally has had a mug shot because of the witch hunt against him.
ABRAMS: But, again, what -- respond to my point.
FERGUSON: I am, yes. James Comey, and one of the things I think people very clearly, if you watch him in his own words, he's very proud of the politicalization of what he did to attack Donald Trump. A great example was him grandstanding when he was sitting there on a forum talking about, yes, send a couple FBI agents into the White House because I could, and the Trump administration didn't know what protocol was. So, they took advantage of their ignorance or trust to go after General Flynn, to try to go after Donald Trump and get something on Donald Trump. And they were like, everyone was shocked he did it.
But as the grandstanding reveal to the Hillary Clinton investigation --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: No, but that's a long preamble to make the point.
PHILLIP: But what did General Flynn have to do with Donald Trump?
FERGUSON: It's not about General Flynn case. It's about James. Comey did that.
PHILLIP: Yes. But that case had nothing to do with Donald Trump. The one that you just referenced did not -- that was Flynn's --
FERGUSON: So, what it had to do with it? Because it was clearly trying to get something on the Trump White House. It absolutely was.
ABRAMS: What's the evidence?
FERGUSON: (INAUDIBLE) White House as opposed to Flynn.
PHILLIP: Yes. That was --
FERGUSON: I go back to -- if you go back to what he had said about it, and if you look at the interview ---
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: It is true.
ABRAMS: So, he's after Flynn and he's bragging about it?
FERGUSON: No. He's going after people in the Trump White House to try to undermine Trump.
And, by the way, let's be clear, James Comey knew for a fact that the Steele dossier was crap. It had been, again, classified by the FBI as, quote, user generated.
ABRAMS: I know the Steele dossier is always the -- you got to go back to the -- it's always about the Steele dossier. No matter what --
FERGUSON: Because it was full of crap. And they knew it and the FBI said it was, and they still used it. Abby, they still used it to go after Donald Trump, and that is a fact. And the FBI hadn't said it was total user-generated. They offered a million dollars --
(CROSSTALKS)
ABRAMS: Steele dossier, Steele dossier --
FERGUSON: That is the entire thing that James Comey was over. ABRAMS: Tell me then, what's the answer to my question? If he's so politicized, how is it that 11 days before the election, he announces he's reopening Hillary Clinton investigation? Hang on a second. And part B --
FERGUSON: Because I think he realized he was hang on second position, that he needed to cover a little bit and that was the bare minimum he had to do.
ABRAMS: And they didn't leak the Russian investigation because?
FERGUSON: Because I think they didn't believe that Donald Trump was going to win.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Ben, I think your timeline is really like a little warped here.
FERGUSON: Please tell me to fix it.
PHILLIP: The first offense, according to you all, the first offense is, one, not against Donald Trump, but against Hillary Clinton at a critical point, one that arguably helped Donald Trump win the election. So, if anything, Donald Trump should probably be thanking James Comey --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: There was a cover your ass moment, and that was James Comey days before the election. By the way, he also then, after he once said, all right, we're just going to lie about Trump and go after him anyway.
SELLERS: Ben, that's not the segment. Let me get you back to the producers are trying to get you. That's not the segment.
FERGUSON: I can't wait to hear what your saying is.
SELLERS: You have rattled on and on, and you have enlisted one crime that James Comey committed or probably committed.
FERGUSON: I answered the question.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: He lied to Congress.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me let Adam get a word.
ADAM MOCKLER, COMMENTATOR, MEIDAS TOUCH NETWORK: Yes. I like how Ben tried to invoke Trump's mugshot as some sort of proof or some sort of way to hand wave this, which you're conceding in that, that they are politicizing the government. You're not even denying, neither the conservatives on this panel or denying that Trump is politicizing the government. You just invoke Trump's mugshots. FERGUSON: No. I said that --
(CROSSTALKS)
MOCKLER: Can you show me a tweet from Biden asking his DOJ or asking his attorney general? So, there's no tweet from Biden asking his attorney general --
(CROSSTALKS)
MOCKLER: Is there any line from President Biden saying, go after these three people. If you can't point that to me, then you invoking Trump's mugshot is trying to bothsides this when this is a clear weaponization of the DOJ.
DAVISON: What Biden did, he wrote a letter going after parents in Virginia and put them on FBI watch list. He went after Catholics.
[22:10:00]
MOCKLER: So, you can't point me to a single example of Biden --
(CROSSTALKS)
DAVISON: Let's just back up a second. This is the first time we've heard -- let me finish what I'm saying.
Do, Trump ran an entire campaign saying -- talking about this. The Americans voted for this. So, Americans were sick and tired of --
FERGUSON: Of a radical FBI that went after --
MOCKLER: Let me ask you a question.
DAVISON: 100 percent. So, this is not a surprise like we're sitting here --
MOCKLER: Hunter Biden was being investigated during Biden's term. Do you think Don Jr. would ever be investigated by Pam Bondi?
SELLERS: Absolutely not.
MOCKLER: Absolutely not.
ABRAMS: Wait, hold on. If he did a crime, I think, yes.
MOCKLER: No, he would not.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: Let's be clear. Let's be clear about Hunter Biden and what Hunter Biden did.
SELLERS: That wasn't the question.
FERGUSON: If Don Jr. is sitting on the board of Burisma right now and was taking massive amounts of money, I have no doubt -- again, I actually, I think that --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on one second. One second. Hold on one second. Hold on one second. It's just too many people talking at one time.
Make your comment so we can actually hear it.
FERGUSON: If you had Don Jr. painting paintings and selling them for six figures, and, by the way, nobody else (INAUDIBLE), I absolutely believe there would be an investigation. Because, honestly, I don't --
(CROSSTALKS)
MOCKLER: Tom Homan was found taking $50,000 bribes. Where's the investigation? Will you call for an investigation on Tom Homan?
FERGUSON: So, now, he's just immediately convicted by you.
MOCKLER: That's a little different.
FERGUSON: No. I'm saying thank you. I think you're being --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But I don't think there's any argument that Trump and his family are profiteering off the White House. There's no question about whether or not it's crypto scams, whether or not it's --
FERGUSON: Not finger painting.
SELLERS: Whether or not -- that's not --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: That is not the point. So, you're --
PHILLIP: Are you suggesting that the nature of --
SELLERS: The crime?
PHILLIP: I'm not calling it a crime. I don't want to -- listen, I'm not suggesting it's a crime. The nature of the profiteering off the presidency is the thing that is the distinction, not the profiteering.
FERGUSON: I think what you have with the Trump family is successful individuals that actually made money and their most successful things in life weren't what Hunter Biden was doing.
PHILLIP: Well, we also do know that the Trump family is influencing policy and then directly profiting from that policy.
SELLERS: Correct.
PHILLIP: That is happening right now in broad daylight, the president himself is profiting off that. (CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: So, you're just saying, he's not breaking law and you want to trash the Trump brand?
PHILLIP: Ben, hold on a second. I literally said I didn't, I'm not going to call it a crime, but I'm just saying if you're talking about profiteering, you just used that word.
FERGUSON: Hunter Biden had to take --
PHILLIP: There's profiteering happening right now.
DAVISON: The entire family did.
FERGUSON: It's like the only part that the president is concerned (ph), Abby.
PHILLIP: One thing, Kristin, you brought this up, you said, I mean, you tried to compare this to allegedly the Biden DOJ going after --
DAVISON: He did. He wrote letters and --
PHILLIP: But hold on. But hold on. Are you suggesting, though, that you're fine with this? You're fine with Trump going after his political enemies?
DAVISON: I'm suggesting that to say that, to compare this, the weaponization of DOJ and FBI against President Trump, to compare to like, oh, well, Biden, you know, didn't do anything, no, Biden actually went after --
PHILLIP: But you're fine with it?
SELLERS: First of all, that's --
PHILLIP: All right. But hold on. Are you fine with this?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on guys. I want to get an answer to the question.
DAVISON: So, we need to let this go. If Comey lied, if Comey broke the law, then yes.
PHILLIP: So, what about Donald Trump? So, Donald Trump says, I want you to go after, and he names them by name, Comey, Adam Shifty Schiff, and Letitia, you are fine with him naming people without there being evidence, no indictments, but saying that they should be prosecuted.
DAVISON: I don't think you can be here as a responsible journalist and say there's no evidence. Let it go.
PHILLIP: Listen, all I'm saying is that if there is evidence, there would be an indictment.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But he literally -- but, excuse me, he literally fired, he fired, pressured his attorney general and fired a United States attorney who would not --
FERGUSON: That's normal.
SELLERS: Time out, who would -- that is not normal for a president.
FERGUSON: The president had the right to fire --
SELLERS: No. I know that. That's not what I'm trying to -- thank you. Can I finish? Can I finish?
DAVISON: You guys -- yes.
SELLERS: Can I finish? Presidents do have the right word to fire U.S. attorneys when they get elected. We see it happen. Bill Clinton had a mass firing. Can we finish a thought, please? Because I know you guys are wrong on this and you want to fight back. But my only point is if you go out of your way to not only tweet what you're about to do, which he said going after people and then you fire the U.S. attorney, excuse me, the --
PHILLIP: Yes, the U.S. attorney.
SELLERS: The U.S. attorney, thank you. I was about to say attorney general, the U.S. attorney that would not carry out your wishes, don't you have a problem with that?
DAVISON: I think that you need to find a different case than James Comey who you said Trump should replace.
SELLERS: Yes or no? Yes or no?
PHILLIP: All right. We got to leave it there.
ABRAMS: This is where Kristin is right, is that this is part of the campaign.
PHILLIP: It certainly was.
The president and his administration is now blaming the left for another deadly shooting in America and this one at an ICE facility. And despite images of anti-ICE casings, the left doesn't trust the FBI.
Plus, Jimmy Kimmel's audience soars in his return as the vice president contradicts his boss on the government's role in Kimmel's suspension.
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Another day, another act of political violence in America, and another round of the blame game, a sniper opening fire at an ICE facility in Texas, killing one detainee and hurting two others. The suspect died after turning the gun on himself.
Now, not long off after, the FBI director published images of shell casings with the words anti-ICE written in blue. Also, not long after the shooting, the political lines were drawn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: You don't have to agree with my immigration policies. You don't have to agree with Donald Trump's immigration policies. But if your political rhetoric encourages violence against our law enforcement, you can go straight to hell and you have no place in the political conversation of the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, look, this is extremely disturbing that there's another one of these types of shootings. I think we've got to deal with this as a country, first of all. But I also -- just for starters, I'm curious, how does it help to have the vice president say that?
FERGUSON: That's the third one in Texas. I mean, if you know people that work in law enforcement, my family does, I know ICE agents in Texas, this is the third attack we've seen in Texas, in the same district as the man in charge today was saying like, this is the second time he's had to have a press conference today.
SELLERS: Who was killed today? Who was killed today?
FERGUSON: So, you're saying since it wasn't --
SELLERS: That's not what I meant. No.
FERGUSON: So, you're saying since it wasn't -- it was innocent people that were killed today?
SELLERS: No, don't put words in my mouth.
FERGUSON: No, you asked a question. I'm answering your question. You're saying since it wasn't ICE agents that were killed, that therefore this a null and void conversation?
SELLERS: No. That's not what I'm saying at all.
FERGUSON: Are you kidding me?
SELLERS: That's gaslighting. I'm asking you a simple question. Because when J.D. Vance went up there, when J.D. Vance went up there and when --
FERGUSON: This is not a good argument from you.
SELLERS: First of all, I am simply --
FERGUSON: Innocent people got shot today, and you're like, well, it wasn't ICE agents that got shot today.
SELLERS: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the division that you all are sowing in this country --
FERGUSON: I'm not sowing anything. I'm saying, protect all law enforcement.
SELLERS: Because of the simple fact, yes, protect all the --
FERGUSON: Gavin Newsom went on T.V. last night. You see what he said? He said ICE agents are authoritarian. You don't think that that can inspire someone to do that?
SELLERS: ICE agents should be able to come home every single night. And so don't put words in my mouth.
FERGUSON: Then act like it.
SELLERS: I am acting like it, first. And, second, the fact that you and J.D. Vance and every other Republican can go on here and talk about --
FERGUSON: We're not shooting people. We're not shooting people. The left is shooting people --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
SELLERS: That is the low -- that is the low --
FERGUSON: I have a friend that got shot and assassinated two weeks ago.
SELLERS: Okay.
FERGUSON: I'm a little bit hot on this one because you guys have been irresponsible.
SELLERS: First of all, one second --
FERGUSON: It is coming out from people on the left.
SELLERS: One second.
FERGUSON: Gavin Newsom went on T.V. last night. Hold on. Gavin Newsom went on T.V. last night and disparage ICE agents, attacked ICE agents, said they're authoritarian.
SELLERS: But before you even get to the evidence, one second --
FERGUSON: Watch what he said last night on late television.
SELLERS: I'm not talking about that, Ben, because you come on here and you gaslight and you put --
FERGUSON: I'm not gaslighting.
SELLERS: Let me finish sentence, please. You come on here and you gaslight and you put words in my mouth. And that's not what I said.
FERGUSON: You interrupted me and said that you got shocked.
PHILLIP: Can you just let him finish? Ben, in the interest of this conversation, let him finish.
SELLERS: What I want you to do is not only lift up those ICE agents. What I'm trying to get you to do is also lift up those people who were killed. Because when you do not lift up those people who were killed, as well as those law enforcement officers, you sow division in this country. And that's what I'm saying.
(CROSSTALKS)
ABRAMS: Here's where I agree with Ben.
PHILLIP: I'm going to a pause on that and let other people in.
ABRAMS: Here's where I agree with Ben, all right? When the goal clearly was to hurt ICE agents matters, and I think that applies not just to ice but to law enforcement across the country, we should be angrier when law enforcement are targeted in this country.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
ABRAMS: Period. Now, that is a separate issue from linking rhetoric to saying that's why this is happening. They're doing this.
FERGUSON: It was written on the bullets, Dan.
ABRAMS: I understand that, but that doesn't mean --
FERGUSON: You don't have to connect dots here.
ABRAMS: Of course, you do.
FERGUSON: He wrote it down so we didn't have to connect the dots.
ABRAMS: No, I know his motives. I'm not questioning his motives.
FERGUSON: So, then the motive was anti-ICE rhetoric.
ABRAMS: Correct. Well, did it say rhetoric on the -- because I thought --
FERGUSON: It said anti-ICE. And when you had people out there literally eight hours earlier.
ABRAMS: Right. So -- but here's what I'm --
FERGUSON: Attacking ICE agents.
ABRAMS: I'm not going to hold people accountable on second, everything someone else says and say, oh, well, this guy must have done it because this guy said it over there. Again, there's a way too much attacks on law enforcement in this country. Part of it -- FERGUSON: Coming from who though, Dan?
ABRAMS: Coming from a whole range of people.
FERGUSON: Show me a Republican elected official that has attacked ICE or law enforcement doing their job?
ABRAMS: Well, how about the Capitol police?
FERGUSON: I said give me a --
ABRAMS: You said a Republican who's hit law enforcement.
FERGUSON: I said an ICE agent right now. You're going back --
ABRAMS: Law enforcement. No, you said, or law enforcement.
FERGUSON: On ICE agents.
ABRAMS: Yes. No, ICE agents --
PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me let Kristin have a word question.
DAVISON: I was going to say, the fact that we got -- we still have not yet like taken a second and said, let's think of those agents, let's think of the people, like we have gone straight to our party jersey.
PHILLIP: Well, to, Bakari's point, the people who were killed today were --
SELLERS: That's my only point. I said, think of the people, all of them.
DAVISON: I agree with you. But you go right to, we don't know the motive. We don't know this. Look --
SELLERS: I didn't say that.
PHILLIP: They actually didn't say that. I mean, I do think he's making a point that the people -- hold on. No, hold on. Okay. The people who were killed today were detainees. I actually think it's a valid question. Who were they? What were their names important? What were they accused of? Why were they there?
FERGUSON: The motive of the shooter was to kill ICE agents.
PHILLIP: I think that's the point of the argument, but go ahead.
DAVISON: Before we start going into motives, and there are two sides. It's not Republican and Democrat. It's good and evil. And for some reason, we get lost into this fight where we blur the lines and say, well, you -- we can all agree here that people who want to go shoot someone for whatever reason is wrong without saying, oh, Republicans -- we can admit the motive. If they're deranged and they want to kill someone, there's nothing -- PHILLIP: Ben, hold on. Hold on. I think you're right. And, obviously, I mean, I think that's not though what a lot of people are doing. They're saying this is the left against the right when it's really deranged people against all of us. And I think that is -- hold on, Ben. It's deranged people against all of us who are not deranged and don't go out killing people.
I just don't understand what is the value in saying they did this, they did that, when it's --- he did it.
DAVISON: It happens on your show every night.
PHILLIP: What?
DAVISON: Every single night, it's they did this, Republicans doing that, Trump rhetoric, this and that. It all --
PHILLIP: Wait.
DAVISON: It never just focuses, every single night.
PHILLIP: Like in a concrete way, what are you talking about?
DAVISON: Every single night it is here. And it's not just Republicans saying they did this. It's Democrats forgetting even what happened, trying to gaslight over it and say --
SELLERS: And so who is Payton Gendron?
PHILLIP: I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second, Bakari. When on this show have we blamed, Republicans as a corporate group for, what, murders?
DAVISON: I am not -- I didn't to blame anyone. What I'm saying here is that there were tragedies that happened. And even right now, as we're talking about this one, and to talk about the detainees that died, I want to pray for them too. But immediately we went to, we can't talk about the rhetoric, your rhetoric, that rhetoric you. You go right into this.
SELLERS: We did not. It started with the clip of J.D. Vance. But who was Payton Gendron? But who was Payton Gendron?
DAVISON: Before we go there --
SELLERS: He actually murdered -- one second --
DAVISON: The clip we showed was J.D. Vance, not what actually happened. What does that have to do with this?
SELLERS: He was the -- he committed mass murder of Buffalo grocery store patrons, just innocent people. Who was Dylann Roof, the things they had on their weapons, the things they had on their guns? And all I'm saying is, yes.
DAVISON: So, what? I'm sorry. What are you trying to say? You're trying to say that we don't think -- we don't condemn that as well, that I'm not condemning that as well?
SELLERS: What I'm saying is, yes, I will give you credit for that condemnation, but we also condemn that stuff on our side. It's not as if it's this side --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Go ahead, Adam.
SELLERS: For what?
FERGUSON: For what he said last night about ICE agents, eight hours before the attack on ICE agents, on. Is anyone here going to condemn Gavin Newsom?
FERGUSON: Yes, I can. I don't like Gavin Newsom, so I can condemn him.
MOCKLER: You know, every time one of these tragic shootings happens, everybody's at each other's throats about which side did it, but we're missing a broader pattern in America. This was another young white dude who's in his 20s. We have seen this pattern accelerating over the past decade. The same day Charlie Kirk was shot, the same exact time, there was a neo-Nazi who shot up a school in Colorado.
We can look at the acceleration of the radicalization of young men through a few frameworks. There's the COVID pandemic, which had people isolated, had a bubble around themselves, and a lot of young men failed to pull that bubble down and got sucked down these algorithms, I've seen it happen to my close friends. They get sucked down these algorithms. We have foreign actors trying to sow chaos in America, sow division. How much does Putin salivate when he sees us at each other's throats? Then we have domestic actors, people like Elon Musk, riling it up.
So, all of these factors -- wait, hold on, Ben. All of these doctors come together to create this pattern that we see of young men in my age range committing these shootings. And if you want to sit here and go back and forth, tit-for-tats, I can say Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers, thank you, John Earnest, none of these were black people, none of these were trans people, none of these were even Democrats. These were neo-Nazis who had things carved into their guns. You can sit here and muddy the waters. You weren't just lying about --
FERGUSON: I just don't want innocent people to die. Sue me for that. I'm saying --
MOCKLER: Then maybe tell Trump to turn down his rhetoric.
FERGUSON: If you think this is --
DAVISON: Well, there it is. It's (INAUDIBLE). (CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: You just -- you literally just --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Can I make something that me a little more controversial than that?
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
SELLERS: Sure, go ahead.
FERGUSON: This is the part that should not be this hard.
MOCKLER: He says he hates his enemies.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Adam.
MOCKLER: Who says he hates his enemies on --
FERGUSON: It should not be this hard for people to understand. After the assassination of my friend, Charlie Kirk, I would hope, and after multiple attacks on ICE facilities, I would hope that leaders of the Democratic Party, and one of those leaders is Gavin Newsom, would know better than to go on T.V. and to say that ice agents are the bad guys and that they're authoritarian, and then expect that no one's going to listen to what he's saying or respond to. There should be more accountability for that.
PHILLIP: Let me just ask you a question about that, okay? Because I think at the heart of so much of this is your insistence that using certain words leads to violence? Is that what you're saying?
FERGUSON: Calling people fascist and Nazis and authoritarian, yes.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, when Rand Paul posted this today --
FERGUSON: This is the whataboutism.
PHILLIP: No. Hold on. No, I'm just -- hold on. Rand Paul said, YouTube admitted the authoritarian Biden regime ordered them to censor Americans. He used the word, authoritarian.
FERGUSON: Yes. Is it true or false? They admitted that. They did that, yes.
PHILLIP: Hold on. And then let me play, this is Donald Trump just Donald Trump. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's a choice between communism and freedom.
This is communist. This is Marxist. This is fascist. He's a radical left, Marxist, communist, fascist.
She's a Marxist. She's a fascist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:30:00]
PHILLIP: We have short memories around here.
FERGUSON: Who's running for mayor in New York City?
PHILLIP: What I'm saying -- what I'm asking you, Ben, last thing --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Ben, he was talking about Kamala Harris and Joe Biden. Hold on a second, okay? I have a question for you. I have a question for you. Are you so committed to this idea that we should just ban certain words from the lexicon. Authoritarian, fascist, Nazi, communist. Should we just ban them because they're all leading to violence or is it just that it's not okay when your political opponents use them?
BEN FERGUSON, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW" HOST: Abby, I think you're -- I think you're incredibly smart and I think that you're smart enough to realize --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: No. I think you're smart to realize that when you demonize law enforcement to the point where what is happening is becoming regular against ICE agents because it's coming from Gavin Newsom, we should know that there is a correlation there.
PHILLIP: Listen. Hold on, hold on. I take your -- I take your point about --
FERGUSON: It was eight hours earlier.
PHILLIP: Hold on. No, no. Hold on a second. Listen. I --
FERGUSON: Eight hours.
PHILLIP: To a degree, I take your point about demonization, I think generally. But I'm asking you about your insistence that certain words that are being used by your political opponents should be off limits. And if that is your contention, then I think lay that on the table and let's make that clear and let's apply it to everybody. (CROSSTALK)
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We missed a good point that he made. Everybody at the table did. And I think that we need to pay more attention to it. And I'm glad you brought it up and not me. What there is a common theme about is young white men in this country between the ages of 20 and 30 committing a series of mass shootings. And until we actually have a conversation about that, do you know who else struck that court? You know who else said the same thing on Fox News? Trey Gowdy, who said the same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: We have to begin to have a conversation about families, video games --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm fine with that conversation. I'm fine --
(CROSSTALK)
ADAM MOCKLER, COMMENTATOR, MEIDAS TOUCH NETWORK: But problem is, people who -- Ben Ferguson, you and I -- you and I can agree on that.
(CROSSTALK)
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: We have to include the media and social media. The fact that tonight the first thing we started talking about was J.D. Vance instead of what actually happened is irresponsible and we have to start holding them accountable.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: Why do we -- why is that right where you go?
MOCKLER: It's the vice president.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: That's immediately -- that's immediately tearing people apart.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: This is serious. If we're going to talk about this, why not look into --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance's words are tearing people apart? Is that what you're saying?
DAVISON: No, no. You going right there instead of saying --
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Are you implying what the vice president said is divisive?
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: Ben, you know who's words --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: I'm not saying you don't get there.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: You didn't do Gavin Newsom's comments against ICE.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Okay. Listen. I don't even know what to say. He's the vice president of the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We're going to play -- we're going to play his comments. All right.
(CROSSTALK)
DAN ABRAMS, CEO AND FORMER MEDIAITE: The difference is in one case there's no demonstration of cause and effect between what Gavin Newsom said what happened. And in the other case, we know he's talking about the event that we're talking about in the news.
DAVISON: Then include those. Then include those.
ABRAMS: No, but one is actually about it and the other is speculative about maybe it could be --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: One is actually related. All right. Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Of course it is -- about the connection.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, Ben, Ben. (CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: So, if Trump says something and then the next day someone does something really stupid, you're going to tell me they're connected, right?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm saying the Democratic Party has demonized ICE as a group and it's a mantra.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Have you ever said hate speech? Listen to this.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We're going to leave it here for this conversation because we really do have to go. We have a lot more to get to in the show. We are getting the ratings from Jimmy Kimmel's return last night on "Late Night" as J.D. Vance is trying to claim that the FCC's threats against ABC was all just a joke, even though Trump completely contradicted that when he posted on social media. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:38:10]
PHILLIP: For an entire week, conservatives at this table and across the country argued that Jimmy Kimmel's suspension was solely a business decision by ABC and not at all influenced by the government. And then Donald Trump wiped it away. He again threatened ABC for bringing Kimmel back and now his vice president is contradicting that, claiming that the administration's threats are all just a joke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UBITED STATES OF AMERICA: What people will say is, well, you know, didn't the FCC commissioner put a tweet out that said something bad? Well, compare that, the FCC commissioner making a joke on social media.
What is the government action that the Trump administration has engaged in to kick Jimmy Kimmel or anybody else off the air? Zero. What government pressure have we brought to bear to tell people that they're not allowed to speak their mind? Zero. We believe in free speech in the Trump administration. We are fighting every single day to protect it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now before we discuss, it's worth noting that Kimmel's return scored three times his average viewership on TV and 15 million views on YouTube. That's a lot of people, perhaps Sinclair and Nexstar subscribers.
But I can't imagine that the vice president is not aware of what actually happened here because Brendan Carr's comments were pretty out in the open, Bakari. He said we can do this the easy way or the hard way. He threatened the broadcast licenses. That wasn't said in a social media post. It was said by his -- with his own mouth on a podcast.
SELLERS: I just want people to understand that it wasn't just the broadcast licenses. What's happening is you have a merger that is -- that is attempting to be pulled off behind the scenes. And as I always tell people with Trump, we always like to go to the cruelty or whatever we might view it cruelty or whatever the politics of it. But there's usually a profit motive.
And that's what we saw here. I wish that Bob Iger and Disney and ABC would play the same games with Sinclair Nexstar which is simply say, look, you put Jimmy Kimmel back on the air, you're not getting Monday Night Football.
[22:40:07]
I mean, let's play the same games because all of this boils down to the dollar. We saw that last night and I do believe that Jimmy Kimmel did a good job last night and he actually preserved himself for the future, thanks to Donald Trump. He is going to be on air for a long time, regardless of how you feel, thanks to Donald Trump.
ABRAMS: I think he deserves -- I think Disney deserves credit. I mean look, I work for ABC News, but I also think that Disney deserves credit for putting him back. Look, I'm someone who got canceled, right? I hosted a show called "Live PD". It followed live police departments around the country. It was the number one rated show on television.
We got canceled in the wake of the George Floyd incident. Why? Because people who didn't support the police decided this is a time to get rid of any kind of live policing show. I am very surprised that he was able to get back on as quickly as he was, because I will tell you, we had to sit on the sidelines for almost two years before getting back. Again, wasn't a business decision. This was the number one show on Friday and Saturday night.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: It's a great show.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You got screwed by the anti-police.
ABRAMS: We got screwed by the anti-police. And now it's called "On Patrol Live". Now, it's on Reelz. It's back. But my point is that it takes some guts to be able to step in after suspending someone and then say within a week, we're going to put him back on which is why Trump is so angry about it because it feels too many people like a slap on the wrist which it is.
PHILLIP: Well, you know, one of the interesting things about that example and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was their concern about the public backlash to that show being gone, right? One of the points to make him all made last night is that the government's involvement in his suspension is not really so much about him but about the free speech principles. Listen to part of his monologue from last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIMMY KIMMEL, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE" HOST: This show is not important. What is important is that we get to live in a country that allows us to have a show like this. The President of the United States made it very clear he wants to see me and the hundreds of people who work here fired from our jobs. Our leader celebrates Americans losing their livelihoods because he can't take a joke. The government threat to silence a comedian the President doesn't like is anti-American.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Yes, so I mean he's drawing a clear distinction there because I mean obviously everybody faces pressures from their viewers. Disney did with Dan's show.
ABRAMS: That wasn't Disney.
PHILLIP: Or, I apologize, but that show and they're facing it now with the viewers, but they're also facing it from the president. And that's the real problem.
ABRAMS: It's not necessarily viewers. Let's be clear. It's not necessarily the viewers. A lot of the time it's the executives who are feeling the pressure. Not necessarily the viewers.
DAVISON: But I think, I mean the conservatives have been feeling this for a lot longer. So, I totally hear what you're saying. I mean, CNN's own Brian Stelter went on and said the same thing about Lou Dobbs when he was like, oh, it's a culture of consequences, not cancel culture. So, we have, you know, been in that situation before. It's an executive decision.
Look, I think Senator Cruz has been the best on this topic. Senator Thune joined him today talking about, you know, the freedom of speech and basically saying, you know, cars misspoke or you know what was wrong with what he's saying. So, that's where I'm looking too for on this issue because I think they've been brilliant on it and really handled it right way.
And look, the market will decide. I personally don't think Jimmy Kimmel was very funny and I think last night was the best night of his entire career and he probably won't have another one like that. I still think Fallon's more funny and all the other guys are more funny. So, I don't think he, you know, if his ratings stay and he stays on air, then great. If they fall and he gets replaced, then --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I think there's two things here. One, he used in our monologue, his monologue last night, Senator Cruz and I, we host a podcast together. And we both took a lot of heat for our position, which is we're in favor of free speech, period. I think there's been a course correction with the Trump administration on this. I like that.
I was willing to speak out. Senator Cruz was willing to speak out. We were saying, you don't use the FCC and weaponize it to shut down or silence people you disagree with. I will always stand by that. Even if I take heat for it.
What I didn't like about what I saw from Jimmy Kimmel last night is the fact that he has more passion for this issue than he did for showing compassion for Charlie Kirk's widow and the Kirk family. And then he says it was just a joke. I think it's sad that there was this much rallying around him emotionally as he got last night and still refuses to show any compassion to the Kirk family --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Let me just --
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: But two days before that he denounced the people who are celebrating. He went after them on the show.
FERGUSON: He lied on his show.
ABRAMS: He got it wrong. No doubt about it.
FERGUSON: He lied on his show also time we knew what -- hold on --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But he also talked about -- but last night, I mean, did you see -- did you see the part of the -- the reason I'm interrupting you is because did you see the part of the monologue where he talked about Erika Kirk. He choked up when he was talking about her speech at the memorial service.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:45:00]
FERGUSON: Sorry.
PHILLIP: l understand what you're saying --
FERGUSON: It's not hard.
PHILLIP: -- but I think to suggest that he was cold --
FERGUSON: He was cold.
PHILLIP: -- to the Kirk family, don't think it's not --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It wasn't warm. This is the delusion of this conversation. He literally said that he was killed by somebody that was in MAGA. That was a lie. We knew that wasn't true. And he refused to apologize.
PHILLIP: All right.
FERGUSON: Real men with integrity walk out and say, sorry. (CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: So, has Don Jr. and Elon Musk and Senator Mike Lee apologized for saying that the Minnesota shooter was on the left?
FERGUSON: I don't know if they have or not. And in that case --
ABRAMS: Okay, they have. So, my point is --
FERGUSON: I'm okay with that, but Jimmy Kimmel, I think you can agree, this was a bigger issue at the moment.
ABRAMS: That's -- it got more attention.
FERGUSON: A lot more. The -- crying on set. He was crying on set. Not crying for Charlie Kirk or his wife. Crying because low is me in my career.
SELLERS: This is why this somewhat falls on deaf ears. Because this is why those individuals who are not Democrats or Republicans find all of us to be full of it. Because the simple fact is Don Jr. had a picture of a hammer and underwear after Nancy Pelosi's husband was attacked in his home, right?
And so, when you have individuals who do that and then you say you have all these other talking points about people chanting and celebrating Charlie Kirk's death on the left, and you don't really give a complete look at the voices who were saying that we condemn that. But let me just say -- but if you want to talk about the lie, I mean, look at everybody on Fox News who lied about 2016. Is that the verama (ph)? Let me give Adam a second. I agree with Bakari. We should look at the full picture.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Bakari, Bakari. All right. Let me give Adam a second and then we --
MOCKLER: I agree with Bakari. We should look at the full picture. If you want to talk about Erika Kirk, she said she doesn't hate the other side, then Donald Trump came on stage right after and said, I do hate my opponents. This is the President of the United States, not some comedian.
And by the way, it is so incredibly clear that Trump is pulling every lever possible to make sure that everybody consolidates around him ideologically. Whether it's with Jimmy Kimmel being pulled off the air, whether it's with Comey. I mean, I did the research. Donald Trump's priorities are so off that he has mentioned Comey on his Truth social 2042 times. How many times do you think he's mentioned --
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: How many times has mentioned inflation? How many times has he mentioned inflation? How many times has he mentioned inflation? FERGUSON: Well, when you fix inflation, you don't have to mention --
MOCKLER: He did not fix it, and he's mentioned it half as many as --
FERGUSON: Sure he has. Look at the numbers. Look at Wall Street.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You're just wrong.
MOCKLER: He's mentioned inflation half as many times as Comey on because his priorities lie in petty vengences. Ben, let me finish.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: We're talking about inflation now, not Jimmy Kimmel.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I'm just going to let him finish his point and then we --
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: I'm just trying to say Donald Trump's priorities lie in petty vengences, going after Comey, going after Kimmel, and he's not fixing this tear of media. Right now, unemployment is up.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: We're going to leave it there.
MOCKLER: Tariffs are making it worse.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us the President introduces a new renovation at the White House and this one trolls his predecessor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:52:23]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the People's House now has a trolling hall. The White House revealed a new presidential walk of fame with photos of presidents in order. But if you look closely, there is one particular president missing or rather represented by something other than his face. Instead of a photo of President Biden, there is a photo of an auto pen. Hilarious, I suppose. I mean, well --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Feels very beneath the office, but I guess, go for it.
FERGUSON: True or false, the auto pen signed more things under Joe Biden's last year in office than Joe Biden signed.
PHILLIP: I mean --
FERGUSON: Is it really trolling if it's true?
MOCKLER: Doesn't Trump use the auto pen as well?
FERGUSON: I promise you when it comes to pardons and clemencies, it's going to be his own signature. Like he actually shows up for work and then take naps for in the middle of the day. He had a four hour work day.
MOCKLER: Let me just tell you I will only vote for --
FERGUSON: -- his own team set.
MOCKLER: -- the Democratic candidate in 2028 that --
FERGUSON: I believe you.
MOCKLER: -- Trump's Presidential portraits and replace them with photos of him and Epstein. So many photos of him and Epstein. More photos than me and my own grandparents. I feel like it's --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm so looking forward to the auto pen responding the outrage over the auto pen. I'm excited.
DAVISON: Listen to Kimmel and just like take the joke. I mean, it's funny. We got a laugh and frankly there have been Democrat presidents that have had way more offensive things like that are beneath the office.
UNKNOWN: Like what?
UNKNOWN: Name one.
UNKNOWN: Monica?
DAVISON: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: But he just mentioned Jeffrey Epstein. So, look. My only point is that this is beneath the office and I just remember back in something that I actually can remember when Republicans on Fox News and everywhere else were completely outraged about Barack Obama wearing a tan suit or having a selfie pic -- having a selfie stick. This is how far we fall in. Now, we have somebody who actually has decorated the halls of the White House making a joke. I mean, i just find --
FERGUSON: Hold on. Did they or did they not put a Hunter Biden art in the White House? They did and it made the money -- the value of the art go up. So, let's dial that back a little bit.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: If Biden would have hung up Trump's mugshot as a joke you'd be like rolled up in a ball crying saying nothing like this has ever happened.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I would have said I would expect that.
MOCKLER: No, you would -- you would not be okay with that. You would say this is beneath the presidency. But the broader point is, why is Donald Trump still going after these petty grievances and all the other same things when the economy is --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: I think they're just having fun. I think they're just having fun. We have bigger problems. Why are we so upset?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, I think maybe that's the point. We have bigger problems. We have a lot of bigger problems in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It is. You have to admit. You have to admit. If you're just walking through and you saw that, it's a little funny.
ABRAMS: It's both things. It's both kind of hilarious and kind of appalling, right? And at the same time like it is -- it is funny. As I watch it happen, I'm like --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: He can -- I will say he can fix it. If Trump buys a Hunter Biden picture and puts it in between, then we'll all be, it'll be bipartisan.
MOCKLER: I'm just so sick of everything being a joke, whether it's Trump like tweeting directly at Pam Bondi saying something, or whether it's Trump saying --
[22:55:00]
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I assure you right now we need more jokes than ever, my friend.
SELLERS: That's why -- that's why Jimmy Kimmel's back.
MOCKLER: The President's words mean nothing right now. The President's words mean nothing. This is a man who sets deadlines, blows through those deadlines. This is a man who makes-
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You're reaching way too far, bro. It's not open picture. It's pretty funny. MOCKLER: The President's words mean nothing and we sit here and laugh
as he --
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
PHILLIP: All right everybody, thank you very much. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:05]
PHILLIP: A quick programming note, this Sunday, CNN looks at Jimmy Kimmel's suspension and return to late night. Is it a free speech victory or is the fight just getting started? "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper" airs Sunday at 9 P.M. right here on CNN. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
