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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Senate Passes Bill To End Shutdown Despite Backlash, House Next; Democrats Furious With Senators For Betrayal In Shutdown Deal; Trump Downplays Americans' Economic Anxiety, Polls Are Fake; Trump Says He Would Pay Eligible Americans Tariff Dividends; Trump Pardons Election Allies. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 10, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, fury and finger pointing after some Democrats break ranks to end the shutdown without getting the healthcare subsidies.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): We can't let a handful of random senators take us off track.
SIDNER: Plus, one of Donald Trump's affordability ideas is being called economic genocide for Gen Z. Is Trump just pandering or is he serious?
Also, they delivered election conspiracies. Now, the president is delivering pardons.
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Congressman James Clyburn, Brianna Lyman, Ana Navarro and Dylan Douglas.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER (on camera): Good evening. I'm Sara Sidner in New York in for Abby Philip.
Let's get right to what America is talking about, a welcome ending or a missed opportunity. It depends on who you ask. Seven Democrats and one independent join Republican senators and just voted to end the shutdown. The deal still needs, of course, to pass the House, but it will fund the government until the end of January. It will not, however, extend healthcare subsidies. That will be set for a date for a vote at a later time to extend those subsidies potentially in December.
Some major backlashes emerging inside the Democratic Party, those eight senators are defending their vote now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): This was the reality, SNAP recipients suffering, nothing happening on ACA.
So, from suffering and no path, we've now got robust benefits and a path.
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Staying in a shutdown mode was not getting us anywhere.
SEN. ANGUS KING (I-VT): If the battle plan isn't working, you change the battle plan. You try another tactic, especially if what's happening is danger to your troops.
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): It's like take the win, you know? We had an election and it went well on Tuesday. You want to overplay your hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: But there are plenty of Democrats who disagree with those sentiments. For example, J.B. Pritzker says, it wasn't a deal but an empty promise. Congressman Seth Moulton said, caving now makes no sense. California Governor Gavin Newsom called it pathetic and says America deserves better. Senator Chris Murphy added, submission emboldens the tyrant. And Congressman Ro Khanna says, Chuck Schumer is no longer effective and needs to be replaced. And then you have Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez saying, working people want leaders whose word means something.
We have Congressman Jim Clyburn here at the table tonight. His new book comes out tomorrow. It's titled, The First Eight. I have a copy of it here with me. I will have you sign it later.
We will get to the book in just a bit. But, first, this argument between Democrats, and I guess the big question is if you didn't get the one thing that you were holding out for, what was it all for?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, I think we saw some things that we have not talked about that did happen. We saw what has happened with SNAP, I think that came out of this, what is happening with WIC, Women, Infant and Children programs. So, some things did happen.
Now, on this particular issue, I think that's a real problem because you say you change your tactics. What are you changing to? It is a little bit like me hearing from my Republican friends, as I've been hearing for years, that we've got this plan. What kind of healthcare plan do you have? They've never put one on the table. So, if you got a new tactic, what's the new tactic? That's what causes me some pause about this plan.
Now, if you promise a vote, is the vote on the bill or is the vote on the procedure? If you're promising me a vote on the bill, that means you're going to give me the 13 votes that you've got that I can get past the 60 vote filibuster. Now, if you're doing that and you will allow a direct vote, then I may have some consideration for it.
[22:05:03]
Because I do believe if you get to the 51, there are two or three Republicans that see the value in these tax credits.
SIDNER: Of the subsidies. Would you have voted along with the seven Democrats that voted to go ahead and reopen the government and say, okay, you know what, we're not going to worry about the healthcare subsidies right this second, we just want to get this open?
CLYBURN: Absolutely not, not from what I've seen. They may know something, I don't know. It may be that they have a promise for 13 votes to get beyond the filibuster. I have not heard that. If they had that kind of a promise, that's one thing I might take a look at. But if they don't have that as a promise, absolutely not, I would not vote for this.
SIDNER: Let me -- Scott, I'm going to let you jump in here. But, first, I want to let everyone hear from the speaker of the House who Jake Tapper talked to about this very issue about whether or not this was going to be a vote, guaranteed vote before the ACA subsidies end up ending. Let me let you hear what Mike Johnson had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Would you bring it up?
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Well, the bill that's going to pass through the Senate --
TAPPER: No, to extend the subsidies, that later vote?
JOHNSON: I can't commit to anything that hasn't even passed through the Senate yet.
TAPPER: Will you have a vote on the issue, as you're 13 Republicans, frontline Republicans, people that are -- that you're the speaker because of them.
JOHNSON: Yes.
TAPPER: They're in districts that are vulnerable.
JOHNSON: Sure.
TAPPER: Will you have a vote so they can vote?
JOHNSON: The very people that you were citing in the letter believe we have to have a real reform.
TAPPER: So, you're not committing to bringing up a bill that deals with the Obamacare subsidies before they expire?
JOHNSON: I'm not committing to it or not committing to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SIDNER: He's not committing to it or not committing to it. And this is the very thing that Democrats were afraid of, right, that if they capitulated that the subsidies would not be dealt with. How do you respond to that? There are a lot of people worried about how expensive their healthcare is about to get.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. First of all, Congressman, congrats on your book, honored to be with you tonight. Second, look, one thing that came out of this entire fight is that the healthcare system in this country has been -- Obamacare has been exposed as a complete and utter failure. We all know it now. Everybody admits it. The other thing that came out is that Democrats are willing to make people suffer. And you heard Democrat after Democrat today say, well, we just couldn't prolong the suffering. So, they admit that their political tactics were designed to inflict suffering on the American people. We also learned about cynical politics in this.
But the overall issue of healthcare is going to have to be dealt with because the system has failed. Everyone, I think it's bipartisan now, admits it. But I'm not sure that having Mike Johnson commit to giving billions of dollars to insurance companies for insurance that's not getting any better, it's feels like it's getting worse to the American people, is going to make a difference.
I could see Democrats and Republicans coming together to discuss that, like if we're going to spend this amount of money, should we be just giving it to insurance companies or should we be doing something else with it that would actually have a chance of making it feel like you could get seen by a doctor and get a better health outcome? But what we're doing now, writing checks to health insurance companies, is not getting us any better outcomes at all.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, but I think what we saw also, I think what America saw, particularly people who were directly impacted and suffering is they saw that Donald Trump does not give a damn. While people were going hungry, while federal workers were making lines that went round blocks, he was in Mar-a-Lago golfing or hosting lavish parties with seafood towers and caviar and champagne. Not at one point did he say, we have got to convene. I'm going to lead. I'm going to put Republicans and Democrats in a room around the table, like he did with Palestinians and Israelis, and we're going to craft a deal. We are all Americans and we have to figure this out. No, I mean, he just completely abdicated his duty to lead.
And when he was hosting a Great Gatsby party, he was giving $40 billion of U.S. taxpayer money to Argentina to bail out those people, it doesn't sound very America first to me. Now, I think that put a light on the kind of president that people voted for.
DYLAN DOUGLAS, SIRIUSXM HOST, YOUNG AMERICAN WITH DYLAN DOUGLAS: Scott, with all respect, you cannot put on the American people that Democrats were the one that were hurting people, making this plight.
JENNINGS: Who was casting the votes against opening the government, Democrats or Republicans? DOUGLAS: Who was --
JENNINGS: Who was casting the votes?
DOUGLAS: Scott, who's wanting to cut SNAP benefits?
JENNINGS: Nobody. Republicans voted to fund SNAP 15 times.
DOUGLAS: And who's paying up SNAP benefits after two courts ruled that it was allowed --
JENNINGS: Republicans voted to fund SNAP 15 times. Democrats voted to defund it 15 times.
DOUGLAS: And you talk about the Affordable Healthcare Act, okay?
JENNINGS: It's terrible.
DOUGLAS: Landmark legislation is not perfect. You understand that? It's Democrats, Republicans, independents, 70 percent of Americans, not Democrats, not just independents, 70 percent of Americans believe that they should increase those subsidies past the mark of December, the COVID-era subsidy benefits. So, it's a huge, huge thing that Democrats, Republicans, 70 percent agree with.
And, look, when it comes to the government shutdown, I was of the persuasion that to go for it. I didn't really get it. You know, Democrats wanted a fight. They got a fight. Chuck Schumer back in last year didn't fight. He got a lot of flack for it, particularly in his home state of New York. So, they wanted a fight, but they found a fight that was worth fighting with talking about the Affordable Healthcare Act. People were with them. Democrats were leading in the polls. We won big on Tuesday.
JENNINGS: That's what it was for, right? It was for the elections, right?
DOUGLAS: Well, I think we should have kept going. What I don't understand, and which I would love others to help me out understand. I don't understand why we caved so soon when the American people seemed to be on our --
JENNINGS: Because the election ended. You just said it. It was over the election. The election ended. They caved.
NAVARRO: I know a lot of Republicans. I know a lot of Democrats. They're cut from different cloths. Democrats simply don't have the cold heartedness necessary to see people suffering and just say, let them eat cake. They are not the types -- they're not --
JENNINGS: They voted repeatedly to do it. I mean, you just heard Democrats on our air.
NAVARRO: And what was Donald Trump doing in the meantime?
JENNINGS: He doesn't vote on the legislature, A. NAVARRO: No. He's the president of the United States, the most powerful president with Republicans in my lifetime, Scott. He never once even told them, come back to Washington. You guys have been out of, out of Washington for a month and a half, a month and a half.
SIDNER: I'm going to let Brianna --
JENNINGS: After Democrats admit that the Democratic plan to prolong the shutdown was causing, quote, suffering, that was their words, not mine. Democrats themselves realized the tactic of suffering was no longer something they could personally stomach. That was their party, not Republicans.
CLYBURN: Only the seven Democrats voted it for this.
JENNINGS: Eight.
CLYBURN: Not Democrat -- no.
JENNINGS: He caucuses with the Democrat. Don't split here. He caucuses with Democrats.
DOUGLAS: And you're absolute right. Democrats did fold because Trump was wagering the Americans people's health, safety and food security on politic games. And the Democrats -- one silver lining --
BRIANNA LYMAN, REPORTER, THE FEDERALIST: I want to jump in here too now.
DOUGLAS: As Democrats, we folded because we're the party of humility and humanity.
SIDNER: I'm going to let you jump in right after the break. We are going to continue this conversation because there's a lot more to talk about. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
SIDNER: All right. We are back with our esteemed panel. We are talking about the shutdown that Democrats have now broken ranks and voted to pass legislation that will fund the government until through January. We're going to start with you, Brianna, because you didn't get a chance to jump in. And I guess one of the big questions is because Republicans have, as Scott Jennings right here at the table, have complained about Obamacare ad nauseum, there are problems with it, what is the plan that Republicans have? What is the robust healthcare plan that Republicans are proposing?
LYMAN: Well, if I was a Republican in office, I would probably propose repealing Obamacare given how expensive it's gotten for the American people. But this is a conversation that could have been happening over the past few weeks had Democrats voted on the clean C.R. in September to kind of hash out these details. I want to go back to something Dylan and Ana said. Dylan, you mentioned that Democrats are the party of humanity. Look, they were so humane that they were willing to let federal employees go without a paycheck, and Americans go without SNAP benefits. That being said, as horrible as the shutdown has been for the average American who is a federal employee or who relies on government programs, I don't think it was politically toxic to Democrats, and that's probably because Democrats know exactly what they're doing.
To Scott's point, this was an election benefit. Back in March, NBC came out the poll and found that Democratic base were really upset with the leadership. They said, you're not doing enough to fight back against Donald Trump. Dylan, I think you alluded to this. And one of the things that the poll found is that a lot of the Democratic base would be happy if the government was to shut down because it meant Democrats were fighting Donald Trump and the GOP.
So, Democrats played their cards right in September. They said, an election's happening in a month and a half. We're going to keep the government shut down. They shellacked Republicans last week. It worked in their benefit. And I don't think there is a political downside to what Democrats have done and now they've just wasted weeks where Americans are now finally, hopefully, going to get all the back pay they've been waiting on.
SIDNER: What about the healthcare? I'm going to ask you because you're in touch with your Republican friends. What is the plan that Republicans are putting forward? Because you do hear over and over again that Obamacare is terrible. You hear it every single time from Republicans, this is a mess. Why do subsidies need to exist? But I have yet to hear a robust plan from Republicans.
JENNINGS: Well, generally they want more free market choices. They want people to feel like that their insurance actually is usable. Right now, premiums are really high. Deductibles are really high. I mean, I don't know about you all, but I know tons of people who have insurance that would tell you, it doesn't even feel like I have insurance at all I pay.
Look, I have a small business back in Kentucky. Every year, I get a letter from the people that we get our insurance from. Your premiums that you pay for your employees are going up, you know, 10, 15, 20 percent. I can tell you this, the insurance benefits never get better and the employees that I have would tell you, it doesn't ever feel like they're, you know, any better off because of it, we pay more, but the health outcomes and the insurance benefits that they get aren't any better. In fact, sometimes they're worse. And so it just feels broken and it feels like you don't really have any choices.
To me, the best way --
SIDNER: But you don't have choices because Republicans have not shown a robust plan. I hear the diagnosis of the problems, but where is the legislation, the full legislation that you can say, hey, we're going to replace this, this is our plan, Obamacare is over here, we don't want this, we want this? [22:20:05]
JENNINGS: I'm not sure Republicans are going to be for a government- run or government-mandated system. What they're going to be for is free market choices, giving people more choices that would probably drive down costs and put them in more direct touch with their own healthcare. Right now, they're in touch with insurance companies, which don't do anything.
NAVARRO: But, you know what, Scott, there's a lot of things in Obamacare, there's a lot of things in the ACA that Americans like, whether they are Republicans or Democrats or anything in between, the idea that you can't get kicked out of healthcare because of a preexisting condition, the idea that there's no caps. You know, all of these things are things that we've all benefited from, particularly the neediest amongst us.
Look, I think this issue is not going to go away, and we're going to be talking about this because we're going to hear horrible stories. People are not going to be able to afford their insurance. I don't think, even with subsidies they're going to be able to as assure to afford the premiums that are hiking up 100, 200, 300 percent.
LYMAN: Wasn't Obamacare supposed to fix that?
NAVARRO: When people -- no. Well, not without the universal -- I mean, there's --
JENNINGS: Affordable Care Act. Affordable was the first word.
NAVARRO: The Republicans have been chipping away at the ACA. And I think this is going to be the death of the ACA, but it's also going to be the death of some Americans who don't go get screenings, who don't get diagnosed early enough in order to get treatment, who go in and instead of being stage one cancer are going to be stage four cancer. And we're going to hear horrible stories because Americans are going to choose to drop health insurance that they cannot afford. And we as a country have got to figure this issue out.
DOUGLAS: You asked, Scott, about -- just real quick. You asked him about what the Republican plan is, and you couldn't answer. There's there no plan.
JENNINGS: I literally said free markets --
DOUGLAS: And the thing about Donald Trump is he's not --
(CROSSTALKS)
DOUGLAS: The thing about Donald Trump, he is not outsider anymore. He's been in government a very long period of time.
And then to your point about the SNAP benefit about Democrats being the part of humility, a government shut down his ugly business. Two wrong, don't make a right. Donald Trump was the one that refused that the rainy day fund that SNAP had -- LYMAN: No, Democrats refused to open the government.
DOUGLAS: No, they refused. There was a rainy day fund in place for that very reason of a possible government shutdown. Two courts ruled against it. He has to do it. He still may not comply. Who knows? So, don't say that's a Republican --
LYMAN: Democrats voted to keep the government shut down.
DOUGLAS: But back to the healthcare, Obamacare, there's issues with it, but if you break it, you bought it, we can fix it within the system or we can do something else. Your point about making it privatized, there's a lot of private healthcare insurance out there. None of it is affordable. And if you think of getting rid of an affordable option would make it worse though.
NAVARRO: You have been in Congress and you have seen vote after vote to repeal Obamacare, and the question is to replace it with what?
CLYBURN: Nothing. A concept, we are still hearing it.
When two courts said to Trump, feed these children, he has appealed that.
LYMAN: Why can't those two judges --
CLYBURN: Why won't he feed the children?
LYMAN: Why won't Democrats feed the children? Why don't we have one? Why don't we have two judges say to Democrats, you must vote to open the government because kids are hungry?
SIDNER: Wait, but here's the thing.
LYMAN: Do two unelected judges have that authority?
CLYBURN: Just answer the question? You can answer the question because you can question all you want to, but the fact of the matter is --
LYMAN: An unelected judge probably does not have the authority tell the executive branch what to do.
DOUGLAS: But they can and they did. And SNAP --
JENNINGS: -- the judge work without. Do you believe as a member of Congress a judge can compel the executive to spend money that you haven't appropriated?
CLYBURN: Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
JENNINGS: Really?
CLYBURN: Yes.
JENNINGS: I thought we didn't want kings.
CLYBURN: Nobody wants kings.
JENNINGS: (INAUDIBLE) king for a day. I mean, that is literally a king, spending money that is not appropriated?
CLYBURN: The judge is not a king.
JENNINGS: No, you're turning the president into one if he can spend without appropriation.
CLYBURN: Well, now, if you got a rainy day fund, it was appropriated in that time.
JENNINGS: Correct.
CLYBURN: The fund didn't come out of the air. The money is sitting there. Now, they didn't appropriate it yesterday or the day before, but the money was appropriated last year sometime, and the rainy day fund was there for this purpose.
NAVARRO: Who appropriated the $40 billion for Argentina?
JENNINGS: My view is as a -- look, you guys have been railing against Trump being authoritarian, having too much power, too much executive power, and at the same time, Democrats have been arguing that he should go out and spend money that has not been appropriated --
(CROSSTALKS)
DOUGLAS: $3 billion, that's in a rainy day fund.
CLYBURN: Where did the rainy day fund come from?
JENNINGS: It was specifically for this purpose.
DOUGLAS: Yes, correct. It was -- I know for in fact it was $3 billion that's appropriated through SNAP specifically for either disaster relief situations or government shutdown. Trump said he didn't want to spend the money. People are going hungry because of it.
LYMAN: Because Democrats voted to keep the government closed.
SIDNER: We should be clear that the shutdown that happened before this was the second longest. It was during the Trump administration. And guess what? SNAP was funded. So, this one is different.
We will have to put a pin in this because we've got a lot more to talk about.
[22:25:00]
Coming up, Donald Trump is calling the affordability concerns of Americans now fake and a con job by Democrats, and yet he is pitching some ideas to address it, including one that's being called by one major critic a disgusting insult. We will talk about that, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:30:00]
SIDNER: After days of dodging how he'd fix America's affordability crisis, President Trump now has says he has a concept of a plan. One of his first big ideas, give out cash from the tariffs his administration has collected.
In a series of posts on social media, Trump proposed sending rebate checks of 2000 bucks directly to people for rising healthcare costs. As for the other idea, a 50-year mortgage plan as a way to incentivize young buyers. The White House later called this a complete game changer, but the proposal has immediately sparked criticism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES FISHBACK, AZORIA CEO: We're Americans. We are not slaves. We are not slaves to the plantation owner. We are not slaves to China, and we are not slaves to Wall Street. This 50 year mortgage idea is a spit in the face.
When my dad was growing up in the 1960s, half of 30-year-olds, half of them were married and owned their home. Today, only 15 percent of 30- year-olds are married and own their home. If you can't own your home, you can't get married. If you can't get married, you can't have kids. This is an insult. This is a genocide against the Gen Z generation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Yikes. I see you smirking over there, Scott. Yes?
JENNINGS: I know James. He's a smart guy. Well, I also have some concerns about the 50-year mortgage idea. It strikes me as a solution to the, I mean, I think they're looking for ideas. This, you know, maybe things are being thrown out, thrown up against the wall. Doesn't strike me as the one that's going to stick for a lot of reasons that James and other people have articulated. I think there's other ways to help people with homeownership. That's probably not the right answer.
SIDNER: And I'll -- just to reiterate that this is what has a lot of people talking. If you look at the interest that you would pay --
JENNINGS: Yeah.
SIDNER: -- if you had a $400,000 home over 50 years, it would be a million bucks that you would actually -- paid for that home that was -- began at $493 for a 30-year-loan. If you waited 50, it would be a million bucks. What do you make of this and this tariffs 2000 bucks? I mean, look, Americans hearing that they might get a $2000 check. A lot of people think like, I could use that. This would be --
NAVARRO: I think the COVID checks that were sent to people, that Trump put his big, fat signature on, and that a lot of people called Trump checks. They thought they were checks coming in from Trump. I think they were very helpful to him and campaigns, and people thought they were going to get them again. So, I think it's a recall for him of how he benefited from sending
checks to Americans with his signature which I'm sure he'd like to do again. But you know, collecting tariffs which are making goods that Americans are paying for more expensive and then returning it is frankly setting the fire and then pissing on it and saying you put it out.
So it's, you know, it's a crazy idea. I think Donald Trump has, you know, and it's -- it makes no sense to me because he ran on affordability and everybody during the campaign was angry at Democrats for not focusing on the price of eggs and the price of this and the price of groceries. He ran on it. He made all sorts of promises that your groceries were going to go down on day one. Everybody that goes to a grocery store knows that they've gone up.
The problem is Donald Trump lives in a white billionaire bubble where people don't go to the grocery stores, where people are not on SNAP benefits, where people are not federal workers getting zero paychecks. So, if you're sitting in Mar-a-Lago surrounded by people that are paying a million dollars initiation fees to be in that club to suck up to Donald Trump, you have no idea about the suffering that America is going through on a daily basis.
LYMAN: You know, I think that Donald Trump's knee-jerk reaction with a rebate check of $2000 is because of his instincts who want to make America feel more affordable for Americans who are still suffering. Nobody is disputing that there are still Americans who are hurting. To suggest that President Trump has not done good things for the economy so far would be to ignore one, that egg prices, gas prices are down.
Inflation is down from record highs under Biden. Wages are actually outpacing cost. We have seen that the purchasing power since Donald Trump took office has increased one percent compared to Biden and actually fell four percent. That's not to say that there is not a lot of work that needs to be done, but it will take time to undo the damage that Biden's economy caused for four years.
SIDNER: Let me just have a conversation about that because Donald Trump himself is saying that the affordability crisis is not a thing. He himself has sort of come out. First, he said it was a problem. Then he said it was fake, that Democrats are just making this up, and sort of taking that tact that this isn't really happening.
[22:35:05]
The same thing happened with Biden and people punished him for it. So, I guess the question is, is it a problem or is it not a problem? Because the President has -- keeps going back and forth on this.
LYMAN: Well, I think the President, you know, some recent comments we've seen over the few days, he's specifically talking about Democrats messaging on affordability, saying that that's a fake, that's a lie, the way they're spinning that as if America is actually in a worse position today than it was at any point under the Biden administration. So, he's specifically talking about Democrats messaging. But I think
President Trump is very keenly aware of the affordability crisis that average Americans are paying for, which is why he suggested a 50-year mortgage loan. And I agree with Scott. I don't think that is a -- I think that is a response to the symptoms rather than the disease. But I think Donald Trump is just kind of spit firing. Okay, what can I do to get Gen Z in the housing market? You know, if it sticks, it sticks. Probably not going to, but --
SIDNER: The problem with spit firing right now is he ran on this issue.
LYMAN: Right, but he's done.
SIDNER: He ran on this issue. So, what is the solution? How do you see this as a young person that's sort of looking at --
DOUGLAS: Yeah, of course.
SIDNER: -- your life unfolding --
DOUGLAS: I'm sure Brianna -- as young people, would both agree, as most Americans --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: What the hell do you mean I'm not young?
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGLAS: -- that there is -- no, no -- you of course. You're youngest among us by far and the most beautiful if I may add --
(LAUGHTER)
SIDNER: Wow.
(LAUGHTER)
DOUGLAS: There's a lot of competition -- that there's an affordability crisis, particularly when it comes to housing. With that being said, I agree with Scott in the sense that Trump, you know, in a lot of ways, I find the best sort of people to diagnose Trump are stand-up comedians in the sense that Trump goes out there one day and he just throws out material. And some of it sticks, some of it doesn't.
I think if it's the 50-year mortgage or even the $2000 rebate, because of tariff policy, if that sticks or not, maybe it's just talk. When it comes to tariff policy, again, I thought the Republicans were the party of free market. I guess that's changed. I thought the Republicans were the party --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: But it's not a free market. China's ripping us off. DOUGLAS: -- of not believing in free handouts. That, I guess, that's changed, as well. I think when you have a President that said that tariffs are not a tax to the American people and now saying, we're going to give you a tax rebate because of tariffs, I think that shows a huge flaw in tariff policy.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Would Congress have to approve that? Congress have to appropriate that?
CLYBURN: Absolutely, it would seem to me. Where's he going to get the money from?
JENNINGS: Well, we've taken in billions in tariff revenue.
SIDNER: Wait, but doesn't Congress hold the purse? So, I guess the --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Can't trust Congress with the purse.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: - told me in the last segment that a judge could tell the Executive to spend money that hasn't been appropriated.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: No, they have been appropriated.
JENNINGS: Just kidding.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: That's not what he said, Scott.
CLYBURN: That money was already appropriated years before. But look, affordability is a big deal. It's not about eggs and bread. It's about groceries.
LYMAN: Which include eggs and bread, yes.
CLYBURN: Yes. So you don't limit it to eggs and bread.
LYMAN: Of course not.
CLYBURN: Okay. It's about energy. The whole campaign over in New Jersey was affordable energy. The campaign here in New York was affordable housing. The campaign down in my part of the country is affordable education. And we got to have affordable everything in this country. And I think that we have to broaden this discussion beyond whether or not eggs go down and eggs did not go down, whether or not we have free this or that. It's whether or not all the things that make this country great. A good educational system, good healthcare system, a good housing
system, all of this stuff is great. But is it accessible to everybody? Is it affordable by everybody? So, what do we do to make it accessible and affordable? Not just pick these little things off the shelf and say, this is a sign that everybody can afford it. So, you get eggs cheaper, and bread cheaper. And then, what about the yolk?
DOUGLAS: And may I mention also consumer sentiment for the economy right now is lower than it was under Biden. It's the lowest since 1952. A historic low. So, however you may feel about the economy or Trump may feel about his economy, the American people still feel hardship.
JENNINGS: The President, whoever it is, is always going to choose to describe his policies as having made the economy better. That's a condition of being a politician. But I will say this, you cannot talk people out of their lived experience. This was true under Biden and they learned the hard way. And you know, I think the issue is some things have gone down, eggs are down, gas is down. That's absolutely true.
But the overall feeling of being able to keep your nose above water and advance a little bit, that still is elusive. I actually think his policies in a lot of ways have put us on a path to grow the economy. That's ultimately how you get out of this growth, more jobs, better paying jobs, wages out stripping (inaudible) -- that's how you ultimately get out of it, but it does take time. It's not going to happen overnight.
But I actually think the overall condition is people want to feel like they're not drowning and they would rather not feel like they're just treading water. They'd like to feel like on a year over year basis I can get ahead a little bit. That's the feeling you want to leave your constituents with and he's got three years left to that.
NAVARRO: But can I ask you this, who is he hearing that from, right? Because if you're sitting at Mar-a-Lago surrounded by a bunch of people who have investments in the stock market and are telling him how great they are doing in this stock market, who is there to explain what the average American who may not have investments in the stock market, who is there to explain what the average American who may not have investments in the stock market, who is going to and trying to make their $100 stretch the way they used to in the grocery store?
That is my point to you that Donald Trump lives in a bubble of white billionaires and does not understand what average Americans are enduring.
SIDNER: All right, we're going to go to break. The average American, by the way, makes about $66,000 a year. So, we will leave that there. Let's go to this. It's coming up and no MAGA left behind. That is how Trump's pardon attorney is talking about the latest round of pardons for some key figures in the bid to overturn the 2020 election. Are they political, transactional, or both? We'll talk about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:46:02]
SIDNER: They tried to help him overturn the results of 2020 election and now Donald Trump is paying them back with pardons. The Trump administration's pledge to leave no MAGA behind was realized with the announcement of pardons for 77 of the President's fiercest political allies. Among them, high-profile figures like Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.
The proclamation calls the aftermath of the 2020 election a grave injustice and claims to continue the process of national reconciliation. None of the people on the list are currently charged with federal crimes, though some were named as co-unindicted co- conspirators in Jack Smith's election subversion case.
In a statement to CNN, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt praising the people Trump pardoned as great Americans. All right, let's discuss this. There is a question that's sort of been sitting on me. Trump went after Biden for pardoning his son, Hunter. He said it was a miscarriage of justice. So what is this, first to you, Scott?
JENNINGS: Well, to me, it looks largely symbolic. These people were not facing federal charges. And basically, what the President said in this proclamation is what he said out loud numerous times about the fact that he thought these people were being unfairly treated. Of course, it doesn't really have any immediate impact on them. I think they were all charged at the state level.
And so, I guess I viewed it just as another moment where he's expressing his views about the way his people were treated after the 2020 election. But is it related to law? I mean, they're not facing federal charges, so I don't know that anything material changes for them.
DOUGLAS: Well, they would have been. They will be -- once Trump's out of office. I mean there's sort of this understood immunity when it comes to January 6th. He was in office. They've kind of put a kibosh. But when another administration comes in sometimes down the line that case will be reopened. I mean a lot of them were arraigned with the former president or the current president, excuse me, in D.C. Got their mugshots with the President.
So, all this is about the future. And what it really shows is, look, I'm from New York. Donald Trump's a New York guy. He grew up in a city which was run by organized crime run by the mob and this is a mobster move. It's loyalty above all else. Same thing he asked James Comey. James Comey refused and look what happened to him.
It's if you prove your loyalty against all else, against even country, good things will happen to you. You'll be protected, you'll be pardoned. We'll see these pardons continue. And of course, culminate in him pardoning himself probably the day before he leaves office.
LYMAN: Well, can I just say, I think it's, first of all, it's a mischaracterization and a misrepresentation to call this basically mob mentality. These were alternative electors. We have seen precedent show with the 1960 Nixon Kennedy that you can have alternate electors.
And what President Trump has done with these pardons is, to his point, he's correcting a national injustice that occurred because of a weaponized Department of Justice that sought to take out their political opponents. And there has been a lot of hostility and tension in America. It's part of the reason Donald Trump won, because Americans were very upset with the lawfare Democrats used to target Republicans throughout the 2024 election campaign cycle. So, I think this is a step toward reconciliation.
The other point I'd like to make on this is, while they are not charged with federal charges right now, I don't think they will be charged with federal charges in a few years, mainly because I think they would have brought those if they had enough evidence to bring those charges already.
The other point is the reason this is such a big deal is Arctic Frost has now revealed to us that in the Biden administration's Department of Justice, you had Attorney General Merrick Garland, you had Jack Smith, who basically workshopped these novel legal theories and then basically farm them out to willing attorney generals in different states to bring these charges.
But alternate electors are acting in official federal capacity because they are presidential electors for the constitution and the Electoral Count Act dictates how the elections -- how these --
SIDNER: Okay, hold on a second. Rudy Giuliani went after two -- go ahead, Congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
CLYBURN: Alternative electors?
LYMAN: That's what this is about.
CLYBURN: There's a process?
[22:50:00
Yes, that's exactly what this is about.
LYMAN: Yes.
CLYBURN: And that's what where we're going on in Michigan. That's the way you get alternative electors. But banging on the election doors, trying to get in and setting up your own electors, that's what was going on in Pennsylvania. Where is the process in our government for you to have alternative electors?
The reason this book was written the way it is written is because the last time we had alternative electors, it brought an end to reconstruction. It started Jim Crow. And it was nine to five years between number eight and number nine. How did that happen?
Because three states -- Florida, South Carolina, Louisiana, came up with alternative electors and threw the election into the House of Representatives. And what was going on on January 6, 2021 was to try to get the election into the House of Representatives so they could then start bargaining, and thought they would get the same result that we got back in 1876. Now that's how you get alternative electors.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Congressman, with all due respect, you're --
(CROSSTALK)
CLYBURN: There is no legal process.
LYMAN: -- the 1960 election between Kennedy and Nixon in which Kennedy was ultimately awarded the alternate electors that he had put up as a slate. Nixon won Hawaii and eventually, the court gave that election to Kennedy because he had those alternate election -- electors.
CLYBURN: The process -- they both follow the process up front.
LYMAN: Biden --- and that's exactly --
(CROSSTALK)
CLYBURN: Nobody was banging on anybody's door trying to stop a count in Michigan, trying to find what, 11,600 votes in Florida -- Georgia, and over in Pennsylvania, trying to throw out votes in Philadelphia in order to change account, that is not in the Constitution.
DOUGLAS: Brianna, I don't know what you're talking about alternative electors. Rudy Giuliani was the mastermind -- legal mastermind behind Trump's "Stop the Steal" case, okay? And to your point about federal prosecution, there was a case, there was -- there was a due process around J-6 that was halted when Trump became president again and the Supreme Court ruled in absolute presidential immunity.
So, the reason why these people are being pardoned, because a case could very much well reopen in the coming years' post-Trump presidency, okay? And these were people that we saw in the beginning with the J-6 rioters, okay? These were the foot soldiers of an insurrection that were pardoned.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: None of them were charged with an insurrection.
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGLAS: And now we're seeing the masterminds being charged.
(CROSSTALK)
DOUGLAS: So it's a very, very sad day for America.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: But actually, Trump has pardoned some people who were charged and convicted in the insurrection.
NAVARRO: I think Donald Trump is obsessed with rewriting history. He wants to -- he wants, first of all, he wants to erase the fact that he lost the 2020 election and everything that ensued afterwards. And so, that's part of why he pardoned the 1500 folks that were in jail as his first act as president in the second term. It's why he wants to influence the way that January 6 gets taught and talked about in schools.
It's why he is making what is a largely symbolic act of pardoning people for federal crimes that they were never charged with. And it does diddly squat to change their convictions and liabilities in state court.
SIDNER: All right. Next, the panel gives us their nightcaps, biopic edition. Who needs a biopic that doesn't have one? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:08]
SIDNER: All right, we're back and it's time for the NewsNightcap, box office edition. The first trailer for Michael, the new biopic about that King of Pop stars Michael Jackson's own nephew. So, you each have a few seconds to tell us who else deserves their own biopic or biopic as we have discussed. We have not decided what is the right term. We're going to start, Brianna, now with you. You're up first.
LYMAN: Okay. . I'm Team Biopic. I'm going to say it's going to be John Pauling, David Williams and Isaac Van Wart. These are three patriots who in 1780, they captured John Andre who is about to basically blow up the revolution and bring secrets to the British. They captured him by making him take his socks off where they found his plans and they later hung them.
SIDNER: That would be a very strong biopic.
NAVARRO: Yeah, it sounds riveting.
(LAUGHTER)
NAVARRO: I want one on Gloria Estefan.
SIDNER: Yes.
NAVARRO: She is -- and you're a Miami girl, so --
SIDNER: I'm with you.
NAVARRO: -- you better be with me on this. She is celebrating her 50 years in the music industry. She has broken barriers. She really was the first to cross over. And we all need a little rhythm and a doctor beat in our lives.
SIDNER: A little come on, shake your body.
NAVARRO: Yeah, come on, shake your body.
SIDNER: Yes.
DOUGLAS: My nightcap is Stevie Wonder.
SIDNER: That was going to be mine.
DOUGLAS: Well, I beat you the punch.
SIDNER: I'm with you. I can't believe there's not one on him.
DOUGLAS: I mean, just amazing. I mean, founder of Motown. For someone that brought so much light and vividness to music, the fact that he himself couldn't see, that's a story I want to watch.
SIDNER: It's a good one. Scott?
JENNINGS: Trivia for the Congressman. Do you know who the first person to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda was?
CLYBURN: No.
JENNINGS: Kentucky's Henry Clay, one of the most important figures in American political history often --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: He talked about, that's right, in Kentucky, but rarely discussed outside of Kentucky these days. But he was Speaker of the House, served in both the House and the Senate, was Secretary of State, ran for president several times.
[23:00:00]
At one point was Aaron Burr's attorney.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: And when Lincoln wrote his inaugural address, he consulted this man's speeches. He's an important figure in my home state, but I think for the nation, rediscovering Henry Clay could be a good movie.
SIDNER: It might be as good as the Hamilton. Maybe it'll get that kind of treatment. All right, Congressman, what is your biopic you think someone needs?
CLYBURN: Robert Smalls, who was number six among the first eight. Robert Smalls is the only genuine hero of the Civil War. You can -- you may have some biases about who was this general or the other, but who? Born enslaved, stole the planter, the ship --
SIDNER: Yeah.
CLYBURN: -- took it to give it to the Union soldiers, developed great wealth without any education. He spent 10 years in the South Carolina legislature, 10 years in the United States Congress. And he was the only genuine hero of the Civil War.
SIDNER: An incredible American story. "The First Eight" -- this book comes out tomorrow. You can read all about. You're a hero, as well. You're in it. It's good.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I am reading it and it is worth reading. I'm very grateful to you for having written it.
CLYBURN: Thank you.
SIDNER: All right, everybody. Thank you so much. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
