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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
U.K. Suspends Sharing With U.S. Over Trump's Illegal Attacks; Venezuela Enacts Massive Mobilization Of Forces As U.S. Enters Region; Military Insiders Allege Sexism At Hegseth's Pentagon Over Ouster; Trump Says No One From The United States That Has Talented People To Fill Jobs. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 11, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, a chilling surprise. America's greatest ally stopped sharing intelligence with the U.S., fearful that Donald Trump is breaking the law.
Plus, a tale of two delusions.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: As our economy has come roaring back.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We have the greatest economy we've ever had.
PHILLIP: While his predecessor downplayed the problem, the president denies it even exists.
And liberals may be furious but did Democrats actually win the shutdown argument?
Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Keith Boykin, Madeline Summerville, Jim Schultz, Bianna Golodryga, and Kmele Foster.
PHILLIP: Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, a relationship rupture between the United States and one of its greatest friends, the United Kingdom. Tonight, exclusive new CNN reporting is revealing that the U.K. has stopped sharing intelligence with the United States about suspected drug trafficking boats in the Caribbean. That's because the Brits don't want to be complicit in attacks it believes are illegal.
That decision marks a significant break, and it underscores the growing skepticism over the legality of President Trump's war on alleged narco-terrorism. But Trump has said he doesn't see a problem with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't think we're going to necessarily ask for a declaration of war. I think we're just going to kill people that are bringing drugs into our country, okay? We're going to kill them, you know? They're going to be like dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The Trump administration began launching the strikes back in September targeting boats near Venezuela, and since then it has carried out 19 attacks. At least 76 people have been killed in them. And today, the Navy's most advanced aircraft carrier strike group arrived near Latin America as Trump continues to build up his military might in the Caribbean. But in response, Venezuela says It is launching its own massive mobilization of military forces.
Now, before we get started, I want to mention that Bianna has a new book out, Don't Feed the Lion. It is officially out today. So, please do pick it up. Bianna, it's great to have you at the table.
You know, this is a pretty significant moment because prior to the United States and the U.K. had worked together on these types of operations where they would board the ships, they would take people, they would take the drugs and they would try them or prosecute them. Now, they are saying that this is illegal. I mean, where do you think this goes from here?
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it is quite stunning. You know, the two are not only close allies but members of the Five Eyes. And in terms of intelligence sharing, the U.K. has military bases in the Caribbean, and these two leaders are quite close. Keir Starmer has been able to carve quite a close relationship with President Trump and they speak each other's language.
They've had successful meetings when it comes to relations on foreign policy related to the Ukraine war and also with trade. And yet now, when this is a subject matter that we've been talking about for a few weeks in the Caribbean, this seems to have come out of nowhere. I don't believe we've heard from Keir Starmer directly addressing this.
So, was this something that was discussed behind closed doors? Maybe the U.K. was hoping to put some pressure not in the public eye on the United States, asking them, what are you doing, let's come forward together and have a discussion about what your ultimate goal here is. That wasn't happening. You heard the president saying he didn't think this was a big deal. So, clearly, this information came out to perhaps put enough pressure on the U.S. to say, when your closest ally is doing this, something's going on.
PHILLIP: And, Jim, I mean, the U.K. is seemingly concerned about the legality of all of this. And you heard Trump just say there, we're just going to kill them. But that's not really how international law works. And a couple of red flags here. You know, the legal experts say that, you know, the idea of designating them as foreign terrorist organizations does not necessarily mean that by default you can just use lethal force.
Some of the boats were idle or turning around, that also weakens this claim of an imminent threat. And also the law of armed conflict does protect civilian traffickers in the sense of they have legal rights.
[22:05:00]
Where does the Trump administration feel like they're getting the justification legally for this?
JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think their response is going to be, well, how did those drug interdiction efforts work in the past? Well, they didn't. We had a hundred thousand people dying from drug overdoses in the country and yet also had in my hometown of Philadelphia, actually just took over an entire portion of the city.
So, I do think that these efforts that they're undertaking, it has to be viewed through that lens as well, what's effective. And in this particular instance, if they're designated to be terrorist organizations by our intelligence community, you know, the fact that the U.K. may disagree with us on that, okay, so be it. But at the end of the day, we have to protect our country and I think that's what the president's goal is.
PHILLIP: In terms of the effectiveness of it, I mean, don't you also have to take into consideration what drugs are we talking about? I mean, I've asked this question every time we talk about this because it is very relevant. If we are talking about fentanyl, which is killing a hundred thousand people, that is not coming from Venezuela.
So, if it's a question of whether the previous mode of dealing with these ships has worked or not, it also matters whether or not we're talking about fentanyl or other types of drugs. And fentanyl is not coming from Venezuela. It's coming from Mexico. So, what is this going to do to address that problem?
MADELINE SUMMERVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I mean, as a lawyer having studied the case with Abrego Garcia, and I know that seems like it's totally out of left field, I think it's very relevant here with so many people that he wanted to deport, right? He wants to be able to do it without granting them due process. And the way that he can do that is by saying that Venezuela has conducted an invasion that was sponsored by Maduro, right? There has to be some sort of provocation, and that hasn't happened yet.
And so I think that this push where he's bringing in as many ships as he can, right, that's totally contradictory to what an interdiction should be usually, which is much smaller. I think he's trying to provoke an armed attack. I think that's what he is trying to do so he can get away with saying that we're at war and now I can deport people the way I want to.
PHILLIP: Is he trying to provoke an armed attack? SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he would argue we're already under attack. You've got Venezuela that does move drugs into our country, not fentanyl. I agree with you. It's mostly cocaine. They're part of a narco-terrorist system in our hemisphere that floods our country with drugs and other countries that are our allies, they flood them with drugs. I agree with Jim. Efforts in the past seem to have not curtailed this.
And so, look, he had promised a more muscular response to the international drug trade, particularly in our hemisphere. Now we're getting it. I mean, I guess you could debate the legality of it. I'll tell you the politics of it. It's about a 70-30 issue the American people have been wanting the government to do something more about the narco-terrorism in our hemisphere and they're doing it.
And so I guess we'll see what the lawyers have to say, but I know what the American people think and it's like finally somebody is taking these narco-terrorists seriously.
SUMMERVILLE: Well, you have to be killing narco-terrorists. We don't know who the people are on the boats.
JENNINGS: They look like drug boats to me. I don't think these are mild-mannered fishermen.
SUMMERVILLE: That seems to be the rationale. They look like drug boats to me. That seems to be as far as we're going with that.
GOLODRYGA: When you're sending the largest, most powerful, most sophisticated aircraft carrier, I think it's now that this, in addition to what 11 strikes, 9 strikes that we've had, 76 killed, we only have 11 aircraft carriers in total in the United States. There's so much else to focus on, both in Europe, obviously, this pivot to Asia that half of his administration at least had been wanting to going into this. I don't think anyone's sitting here defending Maduro. The question is what is the goal and what is the long-term plan? Is it regime change?
PHILLIP: And to your point about the aircraft carriers, I mean, that piece of military might is not really what is needed to take a few fishermen boats out of the water. You know, the boats that are the size of, you know, probably this table here, you know? And so that's what is leading to these questions about what is this really about? And if it's about more than that, at what point are we going to hear a justification for that?
KEITH BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: This is about regime change and oil. I mean, we have 15,000 U.S. troops in the region right now. That's twice the number of troops that were used in the U.S. invasion of Grenada in 1983 in the Reagan administration. There's no reason for 15,000 troops to be in that region unless you plan on mounting some sort of invasion or military escalation, which Trump has hinted at anyway.
And the idea that, as Scott mentioned, that we just sort of see what the legality is at some point in the future is kind of absurd from a constitutional perspective. Because for those people who are sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, we believe in something called due process in this country.
It's guaranteed under the Fifth Amendment, not just to American citizens, to anyone. And that's part of the reason why as. Americans, we don't just go kill people because the president or some elected official thinks they're guilty of a crime. We go through a process, a legal process. If not, there's nothing to distinguish us from the dictatorships that we're supposedly against.
PHILLIP: I mean, what about that, Jim, a legal process?
[22:10:02]
I mean, we did it before. Why can't we do it again?
SCHULTZ: If they're designated terrorist organizations --
PHILLIP: But who are they?
SCHULTZ: -- those protections don't apply.
PHILLIP: Who are they.
SCHULTZ: So, if our intelligence community is telling them, we have to trust our intelligence community.
PHILLIP: But -- yes, but we do, we know who they are?
SCHULTZ: Do you know who they are? Do I know who they are?
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, don't you think that if (INAUDIBLE) that they're part of --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: But don't you think that if they determined they're a part of a terrorist organization, they should be able to say what the organization is, what role they played, who these --
SCHULTZ: I don't think the U.S. government has an any obligation other than to the Senate Intelligence Committee and the like to talk, to report to them on what they're doing to oversight, and that will come out. But, no, you don't have a press conference on anti-terrorist, anti-terrorist --
PHILLIP: Yes. But couldn't -- I mean, on a very basic level, Scott, shouldn't they be able to just say, what organization are we even talking about? What is the structure of this organization? Are these people leaders or are they just minions? And does it matter? I mean, because I think that's part of it is that there has been some reporting out there about some of these people and the idea that some of these people might just be just, you know, small cogs, and maybe they're a part of a machine, but maybe they're not, don't you think they ought to be able to answer some of those questions?
JENNINGS: Well, he is under indictment, Maduro, in the United States.
PHILLIP: I'm not talking about Maduro. I'm talking about the people that we've killed.
JENNINGS: And, look, I mean, we have all this intelligence, as you just pointed out, in military resources in the region, I mean, they have told the American people, these boat are full of drugs that are going to be headed towards our United States.
PHILLIP: They haven't even said what drugs. That's part of the problem.
JENNINGS: So, I mean, the basic argument at the table is you all just don't believe that the Trump administration is telling you the truth. I happen to believe that the drug trade coming out of Venezuela is real. A U.S. court also believes that, and I have reason to believe that there are drugs coming to the U.S. from Venezuela because the head of the cartel there, that's what he does for a living.
PHILLIP: Let me just hit pause on this because we'll continue it after the break.
Speaking of the military, Pete Hegseth's Pentagon is now being accused of sexism by insiders, including an elite commander's ousting, because she's a woman.
Plus, even MAGA is upset by Donald Trump denying the economic concerns of Americans, and now he's floating ideas that aren't even vetted. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Let's pick up the debate where we left off. Scott was just saying it sounds like you don't believe what the administration is saying. I would argue, it's probably safe to have like a fair amount of skepticism about things like this, given that we were in the last two decades in wars that were justified by false intelligence.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And the president who loves to speak publicly has said multiple times, I don't have to tell you this, you don't, you know, need to know. These are drug dealers that we're bringing in and narco- terrorists who we're killing. No specific details as to who they are, but I think what was alarming about the reporting today about the U.K. cutting off intel sharing is that, okay, if you're not telling the American public, you're either not telling your closest allies who are clearly asking you the same questions, or they're not convinced with the justification and the explanations that you're giving them. Neither of them are good options.
SUMMERVILLE: Yes. I mean, the implication of Pete Hegseth kicking out so many people who refuse to sign the agreement at the Pentagon is that they have something to hide. I think as to your --
PHILLIP: The press -- SUMMERVILLE: Yes. I think as to your comment, Scott, I think the more relevant question is why are Trump's people, why is his base okay with not knowing who's on the boats, right? Why do they trust him so much that they don't need any details as to who these people are? And I think it's because Biden lost some credibility when he didn't address the narco-terrorism in a way that satisfied people.
And so people are so frustrated because they haven't been able to get anything done, that they're just like, fine, just bomb whoever, just take care of whoever, just Trump's going to take care of it. And that's a level of trust that should only be given to somebody who's trustworthy.
BOYKIN: But I think it doesn't really matter whether we trust the president or not. I mean, I'm willing to assume for the purpose of argument, Scott and everyone else, that Donald Trump is telling the truth. I don't believe he is, but let's assume he is. Even if he's telling the truth about everything, that doesn't prove that he has the right, the legal right to go in and murder people. And that's really the issue. The president of the United States does not have the legal authority to go in and kill people just because he thinks that they're narco-terrorists. It doesn't matter whether they are actually are or not.
And we know that there are a couple people who were survivors who were released, not put on trial in the United States, but released to their home countries. How are they such a great threat to the United States that they had to be executed by the President of the United States in one moment and then second later we get to release into another country?
PHILLIP: I think that becomes one of the biggest, you know, problems for this administration is that that actually happened, they just let them go. And if they really thought that this was that much of a deadly threat, why wouldn't they try them?
But the other part of it is, again, like I actually think Americans are very concerned about the fentanyl crisis, and I do think that the Trump administration owes a better explanation about which part of the narco drug trafficking world are we even targeting here, and are we addressing the biggest problem that is facing this country, which is fentanyl, which is not coming from Venezuela?
JENNINGS: Yes, it's a legitimate debating point. I would say, there's two issues here. A, Venezuela -- I mean, we don't even recognize Maduro as the head of it. We just recognize him as an indicted drug lord who is perpetually sending cocaine and other drugs of the United States.
[22:20:05]
The fentanyl issue, which you raise, is a real thing, and I agree, I think people don't believe enough has been done. Because of what's happened on the southern border and because of cooperation between the United States and Mexico, we have seen dramatic reductions actually in the amount of fentanyl that's coming across. That is a good thing, but that doesn't alleviate the issues that we have, I think, both legally because of the indictment and diplomatically with Maduro. We don't recognize them. We have sanctioned them. There's an opposition party there. And if they end up with a regime change in Venezuela, and it's a group of people that we can deal with that aren't narco-terrorists, that's probably good for security --
PHILLIP: Well, if they end up with regime change is doing a lot of work there, I mean, are we going to be engaging in regime change?
SCHULTZ: It's not unheard of, right? During Bush 41, same thing happened Noriega, you had the issue of protecting the Panama Canal, protecting American citizens.
PHILLIP: So, yes?
SCHULTZ: You had, you know, what is essentially someone who has brought to justice for drug trafficking. So, there's a lot of parallels there, and it's not unheard of that we've done this in the past.
PHILLIP: I want to make sure we get to this. The CNN had some new reporting on a different topic, but it has to do with the Department of Defense. A lot of the women the Department of Defense are concerned about how Pete Hegseth's seems to be pushing them out, pushing them out of leadership roles, including a woman who was up for a top position in the SEALs and was kicked out or was passed over for her promotion, and they're wondering whether this is because Hegseth has said that he doesn't want women in combat roles.
Here are some quotes. They want to keep it a brotherhood. They don't like that she's coming in and challenging the status quo. Another retired SEAL said that he believes the commander was removed because Hegseth is sexist. I'm sure they would repeal the whole women in combat thing if they could, but this is what they can do, a retired SEAL added.
SUMMERVILLE: Yes. Here's the deal. So, it feels like that regardless of what his true intentions are because he's not telling the truth about the standards that are in the military, right? So, since 2016, the combat standards for men and women have been the exact same. The physical readiness tests are not any different. To enter into the Army, you have to have a specific amount of time that you run for your mile but combat readiness is the same. And yet he had this huge production that had to have been in front of all the generals and all the people to make this crazy announcement. So, it's difficult for me to believe that he has good intentions when he's making false claims like that.
GOLODRYGA: At Quantico, you mean?
SUMMERVILLE: At Quantico.
JENNINGS: So, do we know from our reporting why the person in question was removed from command? Does anybody given a real on the record reason or just speculation? PHILLIP: The only statement we have from the press secretary of the Pentagon is that women are excited to serve under the strong leadership of Secretary Hegseth and President Trump. Our standards for combat arms positions will be elite, uniform, and sex neutral because the weight of the rucksack or human being doesn't care if you're a man or a woman.
But to Madeline's point, she's right, the standards have not changed. And when CNN asked the Pentagon to provide examples of how the standards have changed, which Hegseth has repeatedly suggested, they didn't provide any examples.
JENNINGS: But the personnel case we're citing here about the Navy SEAL, we don't know if that had anything to do with standards or not. Do we?
PHILLIP: Well, as far as we know, she met all the standards.
JENNINGS: Right. That's what I'm saying. And so we actually -- it may have nothing to do with that. It could have -- and here's the thing, we don't know. It could be they were not in alignment on the direction of, you know, orders that were being given. It could have been, he has a different preference.
The problem with this story is that there is speculation. You said it feels like this, but we don't know what it actually is. And I would just say in cases of personnel, this happens all the time.
PHILLIP: Part of the story, the CNN story, is also about how women who are currently serving feel and actually some of these quotes were from men who actually are suggesting that this is because of Pete Hegseth's disposition toward women in combat.
And I do think it matters not just how they feel, but also what Pete Hegseth has done. He has pushed women almost completely out of the top ranks of the military.
BOYKIN: He has.
PHILLIP: Point blank.
BOYKIN: Women are 18 percent of the U.S. military right now. He pushed out Lisa Franchetti from the from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. There are now no members of the joint chief staff who are women. And despite the fact that women are the majority of the population in 80 percent of the U.S. military, there are zero women on the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
In fact, every member of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff right now is a white male. White men are 29 percent of the population. Is it possible that white men are the only people in the world, in this country, who are qualified to be on the Joint Chiefs of staff? That's the assumption, I guess, that Pete Hegseth us to believe.
And truth is that Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth had have launched a campaign against DEI, against women, against people of color, against black people. And here on Veteran's Day, we just found out they, they were removing a memorial of black soldiers in a military cemetery in the Netherlands, the U.S. military cemetery in the Netherlands.
[22:25:06]
It's part of a coordinated campaign from this administration against diversity because they say diversity is a weakness. In reality, diversity is our strength.
SUMMERVILLE: Yes. Here's an example of how silly this gets to, right? So, they removed a picture of the Enola Gay because it got flagged for DEI problems, right? They took it off the wall at the Pentagon. It's so silly. But the major problem here in terms of DEI, I think, is that the assumption becomes if you get rid of all the people of color and the women, that regardless of who put them in those positions, that they're not qualified for them, that no matter what test they took, if you're a woman or a person of color in a high position, that you've got to go because you for sure didn't meet the standards, which is not true. It DEIs for recruiting. It's not for giving a lower standard to pass a test.
PHILLIP: All right. Bianna, thank you very much and congratulations on the book. Everyone pick it up. It's out today.
And next for us, Donald Trump keeps dismissing the economic concerns of Americans and yet he is floating controversial ideas that aren't even vetted. Another special guest is going to join us in the debate.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, when it comes to the economy, is Donald Trump taking messaging advice from Joe Biden?
Well, many have attributed the Democrats' loss to Biden's claims that the economy was doing well. Now, that was despite Americans disagreeing with him. Trump appears to be adopting that very same strategy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST, "THE INGRAHAM ANGLE": Is this a voter perception issue of the economy, or is there more that needs to be done by Republicans on Capitol Hill or done in terms of policy?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: More than anything else, it's a con job by the Democrats.
INGRAHAM: So are you saying that voters are misperceiving how they feel?
TRUMP: So when I took over, you remember?
INGRAHAM: Because you said Biden did that, too, because he was saying things were great.
TRUMP: Let's say it's synonymous Biden and Kamala, you know, because you didn't know who the hell was campaigning.
INGRAHAM: Why are people saying they're anxious about the economy? Why are they saying that?
I don't know that they are saying that. I think polls are fake. We have the greatest economy we've ever had.
JOE BIDEN, THEN-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look at the Michigan survey. For 65 percent of American people think they're in good shape economically. They think the nation's not in good shape, but they're personally in good shape.
The polling data has been wrong all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So let's take a look at what exactly the polls are saying. Fifty-nine percent of Americans say that Trump is to blame for the current rate of inflation, and even more say that prices have been going up and not down, 61 percent say that Trump's policies are worsening economic conditions, according to a recent CNN poll and 52 percent said the same thing in a Fox News poll from September.
And consumer sentiment is flirting with record lows right now, when inflation hit historic levels in the middle of the pandemic.
So, Kmele, welcome to the table, first of all, but Trump is doing exactly the same thing that Biden did. And frankly, I actually don't think we really know what the state of the economy is right now, in part because the government's been shut down for over a month. We don't know what those numbers are going to say, but a lot of the signs are flashing red.
KMELE FOSTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, TANGLE, AND POCAST HOST, "THE FIFTH COLUMN": And you also fire the head of the Bureau of Labor and Statistics because you're dissatisfied with the quality of the data that you're getting and create more uncertainty. This is a really bad situation for the administration. We are a long way from January and all of the enthusiasm around the inauguration, certainly a long way from what was it? Freedom Day back in April, when we got the first tariff announcement.
MADELINE SUMMERVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Liberation
FOSTER: Liberation Day.
SUMMERVILLE: Right.
FOSTER: How could I forget our real Juneteenth?
Things have been a real challenge for them. And I think trying to insist that all of the various polling data is completely fake, is contrived, is part of some conspiracy. It doesn't just look like they're trying to deny reality, it looks like they don't actually know what reality is.
The bizarre scene where you're sitting next to the Prime Minister of Hungary and you're flanked by some of your various officials. And a reporter asks you a very direct question about the state of the economy and public opinion that's waning. And you give this rambling answer before tossing to your press secretary, not one of your head economic advisors to provide some basic statistical data, but your press secretary directing them essentially to spin a response on your behalf.
I have, as of yet, I haven't been particularly concerned about Donald Trump's mental fitness for the office. But a scene like that is just kind of bizarre. And I mean, Scott, my heart goes out to you.
You are one of the most capable defenders of this administration, but they are really fumbling the ball, right?
PHILLIP: Scott?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SR. POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, AND RADIO HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SALEM RADIO NETWORK: You're worried about Donald Trump after what we just lived through.
FOSTER: That was bad, too. Okay, so that was also bad.
JENNINGS: Here's the thing. Several things could be true.
A, he did inherit a mess and anytime you're messaging on the economy, tried and true blame your predecessor. Obama did it for eight years, and it worked pretty well for him. And in this case would be true.
Number two, you cannot talk people out of their lived experience. I mean, Biden learned this the hard way, and that's a true story. And though I think Trump does have a good story to tell on getting the tax rates permanently lowered, and I think some stimulation of the manufacturing economy through the tariffs is absolutely true.
[22:35:04]
People are still feeling like they're having trouble keeping their nose above water when it comes to cost of living. You can't talk people out of their lived experience. But he's only been in office for less than a year.
He's got an economic program that is not a bunch of simple quick fixes. It's a long term reordering of the U.S. Economy, and that's what he has to sell more than anything. I think it's just a question of focus.
Do people believe that he is thinking about what they're dealing with on a daily basis or is he dealing with the 40 other problems that he is trying to solve at any given time?
So I think when you're heading into an election year, you know, getting a little bit more focus on the domestic stuff, particularly the economy, as opposed to a lot of the foreign policy wins that he's had probably is in order.
KEITH BOYKIN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE AIDE: And people don't believe he's focused. And, you know, he inherited a Yes, you could say that. But the economy is worse in some respects today than it was when he came in. Inflation is actually higher today than it was last year at this time, which is a damning statement.
And the reason why people were so upset is because he came in promising that on day one he was going to focus on this issue. But instead, you know what he's doing? He's having great Gatsby parties and redecorating the White House.
That doesn't show the American people his focus doesn't show that he's concerned about people when they can't put food on the table, can't pay for their electricity bills. They can't pay for their basic life expenses. That shows a president who's completely out of touch.
The worst part about this is that Donald Trump said during Cove it he's saying this. He's saying the same thing now through his actions.
He said, No, I don't take responsibility at all. Those were his words in the midst of COVID.
This is a guy who never takes responsibility. Harry Truman said the buck stops here with Donald Trump. The buck stops with everybody else.
It's Biden's fault, it's Obama's fault, it's anybody else's fault. But Donald Trump, you're the damn President of the United States act like it.
JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, AND FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: Again, snapshot in history is snapshot in time, right? You have 3.8 percent growth when we thought it was 3.3. We readjusted 3.8. You know, growth is strong, strong growth numbers, largest middle tax, middle class tax credit in history. That's going to have to settle in regulatory reform going to do the same thing.
All these things have to fall into place, and it takes time to make up for all the problems that he inherited.
I think you can actually, Scott, talk people out of their lived experience.
SUMMERVILLE: I think that Trump has done it time and time again. There were so many times when we would watch the news and see people saying, you know, all I know is I had more money when I was when Trump was president. But then you look at the money in their bank accounts or you when they would conduct a study, or you would look at inflation being down or wages being up because consistently, actually, Democrats end up making the economy better.
It's a perception that Republicans do better. It's a perception that they have that the economy is better, and Trump is a manifester. Trump believes in saying things and making them so, and that's what he's done here.
He's like, No, it's definitely better. Life is better for all of you. Regardless.
JENNINGS: It's not unusual for a president or any politician to describe their policies is having worked. I mean, any president is going to say the course I have put us on has us on the right trajectory. If you give it time to work, the issue is in more in the short term.
You know, how are people feeling today in the short?
SUMMERVILLE: But he said it is working in the way he believes it is working.
And he believes it is working and there is some evidence that if you give this program time, lower taxes, deregulation, stimulating domestic manufacturing, that it will work. But it's not an overnight fix.
FOSTER: Given the whole that we were wonder about the distance between again, you're really articulate, thoughtful response. It's nuanced whether or not one completely agrees with it and what the President said when asked about this directly. It's strange that it's a Democrat con job that the tariffs have are the only thing that have kept us out of a global depression.
There's just no evidence for any of those things. Why can't they marshal better responses to the media than that? Why can't they speak directly to people's actual concerns about the state of the economy and the fact that so many other policies seem to be going around?
PHILLIP: We're going to take a quick break and pause on this conversation. I want to play some new sound for you. That's raising a lot of eyebrows tonight. Trump saying that the U.S. lacks talent to work domestic jobs, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We have to get to this tonight. Donald Trump was confronted on Fox about H-1B visas and why he's not prioritizing jobs for American workers in manufacturing. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INGRAHAM: And does that mean the H-1B visa thing will not be a big priority for your administration? If you want to raise wages for American workers, you can't flood the country with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of foreign workers.
TRUMP: Well, I agree, but you also do have to bring in talent.
INGRAHAM: We have plenty of talented people.
TRUMP: No, you don't. INGRAHAM: We don't have talent.
TRUMP: You don't have. You don't have certain talents, and you have to. People have to learn.
You can't take people off an unemployment line and say, I'm going to put you into a factory. We're going to make missiles or I'm going--
INGRAHAM: How do we ever do it before?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's an interesting sound bite. I mean, there are a lot of things happening there, including a huge rift actually within the Republican coalition on this issue.
But that's that piece where he says, No, you don't. You don't have the talent in response to her question.
FOSTER: I mean, this is yet another circumstance where the president seems to be having a very difficult time defending his own policies here.
[22:45:02]
And I am someone who's generally in favor of more immigration, who's been very in favor of these H-1B visas, which have been indispensable to the tech industry.
It would be great if you had the ability to articulate why these air a good idea right now, why these don't necessarily crowd out American applicants for these jobs. People who want to go seek a higher education in the United States visiting from abroad, being able to attract the best possible talent from around the world and bring them to American universities to steep them in our culture.
Lots of them stay, lots of them create more jobs. This is not a bad policy.
PHILLIP: It has been a remarkable success story for the United States, although there are cheaters in the system.
FOSTER: That's true.
PHILLIP: And that should definitely be addressed. But to Kmele's point, Trump did not articulate anything even close to that in that sound bite.
BOYKIN: No. And it's fascinating because although I completely agree with what you said, I thought it was kind of shocking that he just said, No, you don't. Who's the you you're referring to the United States? He's referring to the United States as some other entity as though he's not the President of the United States.
The United States doesn't have talented workers. First of all, I agree they're not enough workers here in the United States to be able to do all those jobs. But the President of the United States just said that we, the United States people, don't have enough good talented people in your country.
I'm shocked that if Barack Obama or Joe Biden or any Democrats said that every Republican conservative be outraged by that. I just went one lines the first time I heard that it just struck me as being very unusual for any president to say something like that.
PHILLIP: If Joe Biden had said that it would be, you know, more evidence in your column that he was unfit. I think--
JENNINGS: Look, he was having a debate with a hardliner about immigration. He fervently believes that we shouldn't have any of this kind of immigration. Trump is an interesting spot.
As you pointed out with the coalition, he does have people in the party who believe what Laura believes, which is this should be cut off. We shouldn't be doing any immigration of any kind. That's how you drive up wages for workers, that's a big chunk of it.
He also has this interesting tech part of his coalition. They like the H-1B visa program, and then he's also got the agriculture piece of his coalition, which has other immigration issues. It's a delicate thing.
He's got a broad coalition with really disparate views. I will point out he did sign an executive order earlier this year. I think it's $100,000 application fee now for an H-1B visa.
So they did move towards making it harder to get one. I think they would argue that makes it harder to cheat on it. If you're serious, you're going to pay us this kind of an application fee.
But obviously, he believes there's something to be gained in the United States by finding talented people, maybe with specialized skills and bringing them here. That may not. He may not be in full agreement with all of his coalition, but he'll get some support on that out of tech and out of other industries.
SUMMERVILLE: So let me ask you a question. If Trump would have said, No, we definitely need American workers, would you have the same? Would you have just made the same argument?
JENNINGS: Well, I'm not necessarily making an argument. I'm just telling you the political dynamics in the Republican Party, which is that there's not broad agreement. Some people want it. Some people want it throttled, and some people don't want it at all.
And he's kind of presiding over all of this. He is in an interesting position because he's known broadly as an immigration hawk. But on this particular point, he is supported by a great many people who see the value in highly specialized, talented people being able to come here--
SUMMERVILLE: -- to work from other countries, not Americans.
JENNINGS: Yes. So I mean, that is that is a point that's been made to him, and he's obviously--
PHILLIP: And that's one of the reasons that this (inaudible) is a rift because Trump has sold his base on a pretty exclusionary immigration policy. Now he's trying to argue with them that actually we should let certain people in. That's why Laura Ingraham is pressing him like this.
And he's not really even articulating to Kmele's point again. He's not really saying clearly what the policy ought to be. He's just saying we don't have talented people in the United States to do these jobs, which is not true.
But, you know, I mean, it's also just a failure.
JENNINGS: Are you arguing that we shouldn't have H-1B's?
PHILLIP: No, I'm just saying what he's saying that we don't have talented people is just on its face untrue. But there is a role for H- 1B's that he could argue for, but he didn't.
JENNINGS: I interpreted it as him saying there's room for more talented people. When I was listening to it and I listened to it carefully, I was interpreting his answer is look, we have needs in room for the most talented people we can get. Now it will be under the framework of his executive order, meaning you have to pay a pretty significant fee to get one, which I think they believe has controlled this to some degree.
But my interpretation of it was, hey, if there are talented people that can come here, they want to be here and they're not gaming the system. That's something we ought to look at. That's how I interpret.
BOYKIN: He just said, No, you don't. He said you'd have to get people out of the unemployment line here in order to get them into the jobs that are high skilled jobs. That didn't sound like what you just know.
JENNINGS: No. He was obviously saying that if you have it, you have an unskilled worker.
[22:50:00]
PHILLIP: You're saying that--
JENNINGS: No, if there's an unskilled worker who's unemployed versus a highly trained or highly educated, you know, engineer, physicist, those are two different kinds of people who would be taking two different kinds of jobs. What he said is objectively true.
You couldn't pluck anyone off the street and put them in a high tech, highly specialized, high trained area in that moment. Maybe you could train them over time. But if you have someone that's already trained that wants to pay 100,000 to come here and you could do it while--
BOYKIN: And for the skilled type workers, he does advocate for apprenticeship programs, right? That's the cornerstone of trying to train the American worker to do
the jobs in the American factories as the manufacturing base starts to grow.
SUMMERVILLE: This sucks for you guys, because he has put Trump has put you in a very difficult position because, as my colleagues have said here, right? If Joe Biden or any other Democrat would have said this, you'd be like, that's ridiculous.
JENNINGS: I don't know you very well, but I can assure you that the condition of Donald Trump being the president versus Joe Biden in no way, shape or form sucks for me or Jim.
SUMMERVILLE: I think it's quite difficult to defend somebody who puts you in a position of saying we should put somebody else besides America First, especially when he's just I think it's billions of dollars to bail out Argentina.
JENNINGS: I think it first of all, it was a currency swap, which we made a profit on number two. It's quite easy for me to be perfectly comfortable with the President of the United States, who's presiding over a broad coalition that does have disparate views.
The previous administration, you don't even you couldn't sit here and tell me who the hell was in charge I know who's in charge --
SUMMERVILLE: You're right, and I'm not going to defend it. I'm not sitting here to defend that. So I don't have Trump derangement syndrome.
So all I'm saying is, if you had somebody else saying the exact same thing, would you make the same argument? Can you say that honestly? And can you be intellectually honest about that?
JENNINGS: Trump is in a difficult political position because his base is diversified here. Some hardliners, some moderates and some people who want it more wide open, but they're all part of his coalition. He's trying to find a balance, but he's trying to do what's best for the United States.
He clearly thinks there is some role for the H-1B program, but he has throttled it somewhat with this application fee.
He's clearly a set community is clearly listened to the manufacturing community. He's trying to strike that balance.
SCHULTZ: Did he do it in an awful way in that particular interview? Not necessarily. But that doesn't put Scott and I have bad position in terms defending the policies. I think the policies are good policy.
Well, one dimension of it. So he's trying to find some middle ground.
JENNINGS: The policy is he has an H-1B program that has a hefty application fee, which means not just anybody can walk in here willingly, you got to be serious.
PHILLIP: You should also make note.
JENNINGS: Are you in stage one?
SUMMERVILLE: That was America first.
JENNINGS: So you're against all immigration?
SUMMERVILLE: No, of course not. And I'm not against H-1B's either. What I'm against is pretending that you are somebody that you're not pretending that you believe in something that you're not trying to sell the American people on something to pretend like you were supporting it the entire time and then putting you guys in a position to defend something that you definitely wouldn't defend.
JENNINGS: You said you're America first. I just don't think that there is, they're mutually exclusive. You can be America first and also recognize that there may be times you could import talent from other countries that makes America stronger. We've done that for decades.
SUMMERVILLE: Totally, but that's not Donald Trump's position.
JENNINGS: It's literally what he just said.
SUMMERVILLE: Today.
PHILLIP: It's literally what I mean.
I also think that this is not unique to H-1B's. There are a lot of types of labor that immigrants actually do in this country that help the United States economy. And Trump doesn't see, I guess maybe the, the, you know, the home health workers and the hospital workers haven't gotten to him yet.
But those immigrants also count in.
BOYKIN: Seasonal workers who used to work in Mar-a-Lago got to him because he used to hire undocumented immigrants all the time to got busted for doing that. He had no problem shipping jobs overseas to produce his products.
But you know, now he went, went through President. He's America first. All of a sudden people believed it.
PHILLIP: Ahead, the pope reveals his Mount Rushmore of movies. So our panel is going to give us their own movie recommendations for the pontiff. Night caps are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for the Newsnight cap.
Pope Leo is revealing his top four movies of all time. Here's his list. "It's a Wonderful Life," "The Sound of Music," "Ordinary People," and "Life is Beautiful."
Sounds right for a Pope, but you each have 30 seconds to pitch your movie to the Pope. Jim, you're first.
SCHULTZ: So the Pope has ties to Philadelphia having gone to Villanova. So I'd like him to sprinkle a little touchdown Jesus on our Philadelphia Eagles and watch "Invincible."
SUMMERVILLE: I love it. I think "Do the Right Thing." It's a Spike Lee movie because I think it would be a chance for him to see a struggle that he cares about a lot from the outside looking in and also he's a city guy. He grew up in Chicago, so he understands like somewhere in the city kind of vibe.
FOSTER: Well, no westerns on his list. So there's only one possible recommendation for me. It's "Tombstone," greatest movie ever made.
Recommended to me by my childhood pastor. It is an extraordinary meditation on the nature of good and evil. And of course, Val Kilmer is a Doc Holliday. You can't--
JENNINGS: Also my favorite movie, literally.
BOYKIN: I'm going to suggest "Moonlight," the 2016 film that was based on the story by Terrell. Alvin McCraney is a friend of mine that tells the story of these two young black boys who grew up in a world that's not welcoming to them and deal with their sexuality and identity.
And I think for a Pope who's wrestling with the questions of sexuality and sex orientation, LGBTQ people and people of color, he needs to see that.
PHILLIP: All right, Scott.
[23:00:03]
JENNINGS: There's a new movie out called "Soul on Fire" out of St. Louis.
It's a story of a young boy who suffers catastrophic burns over 100 percent of his body. It's about his recovery. It's about his friendship with the St. Louis Cardinals announcer, legendary Jack Buck.
But it's a truly an inspirational story from Middle America. And I know he's a baseball fan, so I think he'd love it.
PHILLIP: All right, guys, this is a good list. I like it. Thank you very much, everyone.
And thank you for watching "Newsnight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
