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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Epstein Email Describes Trump as the Dog That Hasn't Barked; Trump Officials Hold Situation Room Meeting Over Epstein Files; U.S. Government Reopens After Longest Shutdown Ever. Shutdown Now A Tug-of- War; MAGA World Reacts to President Trump. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 12, 2025 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, from the grave, disturbing new revelations about what Donald Trump knew in Jeffrey Epstein's own words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that this is just -- I mean it's horrifying.
PHILLIP: Plus, is the president more and more exposed?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: You also do have to bring in talent. When a country
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have plenty of talented people here.
TRUMP: No, you don't. No, you don't.
PHILLIP: Why his base is calling out the act.
And they first fired the messenger. Now, the White House says we'll never see last month's jobs report.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Democrats may have permanently damaged the federal statistical system.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Ben Ferguson, Ana Navarro, Kevin O'Leary, Charles Blow, Stacy Schneider, and Chris Matthews.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Donald Trump has been trying four months to keep the Epstein files hidden. And tonight we are starting to understand exactly why. A new trove of the sex trafficker's emails show many mention President Trump. In 2011, Epstein wrote to his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, quote, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump. He goes on to say that a victim spent hours with Trump at Epstein's home. Republicans argue that the redacted name was Virginia Giuffre, who did not accuse Trump of wrongdoing, calling it a fake narrative.
In another email from 2019, Epstein says that Trump, quote, knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop.
In 2018, after news broke of Michael Cohen implicating Trump in a hush money scheme, Epstein wrote that he knew, quote, how dirty Donald is.
And now Democrats in the House Oversight Committee released the emails, which the White House says, don't prove anything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong. And what President Trump has always said is that he was from Palm Beach, and so was Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein was a member at Mar-a-Lago until President Trump kicked him out because Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and he was a creep.
This administration has done more with respect to transparency when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein than any administration ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And I should note that we are about to see Trump live as he signs the bill that will end the government shutdown. And it's safe to say he will face questions, although the question remains whether or not he actually answers them.
Now, to these Epstein files, this is one of the things that seems like the Trump administration has been concerned about, otherwise they wouldn't be working so hard convening a Situation Room meeting today in order to deal with it. But what do you think, Charles, that it does show? Because, I mean, I think his name is there, but obviously there's no hard proof of any actual wrongdoing.
CHARLES BLOW, THE LANGSTON HUGHES FELLOW, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: In a different world, it's exactly what you just said. There's no proof that he's committed a crime. Nobody's accused him of a committing a crime. There's just an association in the emails that we've seen so far.
Now, there is a question about whether or not if you knew something was happening, you knew something was untoward, you knew about it, whether or not you had a moral duty to report that to someone or not. Now, there is a question about that.
Because Donald Trump is acting like a thief in church and panicking about this and acting like a guilty person, it makes people perk up and say, what is this about? Why are you behaving this way about these files if there is nothing in it that would implicate you in a negative way and harm you politically or otherwise? Because he's acting that way, I think more people are interested in this. More people look at this and say, we want all of these files released because you are behaving like a person who's guilty.
PHILLIP: Okay.
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I wish you guys gave this much thought and much obsession over this when Joe Biden was president. I wish you were asking for this much transparency when it wasn't about attacking president of the United States of America for political points.
[22:05:07]
I wish you guys cared about the victims as much as you care about trying to attack Donald Trump.
When CNN's own reporting says, and I quote, the woman who is the survivor literally accused Democrats, not Republicans, of hiding her name because she had not alleged Trump --
PHILLIP: What are you talking about?
FERGUSON: -- done anything wrong?
PHILLIP: You're talking about Virginia Giuffre, who we just talked about.
FERGUSON: And my point is --
PHILLIP: She died by -- just to be clear, she died by suicide. So, that was before --
FERGUSON: But she accused Democrats when she was alive, her words, of hiding her name because she had not alleged Trump to have done anything wrong. That is how sick and partisan this has become. You guys didn't care about the victims, you didn't care about anything else, and now you're saying, well, maybe Donald Trump knew of a crime and maybe didn't report it. That's just straight up slander and libel.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Can I just clear one thing out up because I think this is important. I don't want this misinformation to be out there. When Virginia Giuffre said that Trump had not done anything wrong, she was not accusing -- the Republicans accused Democrats of withholding her name for that reason. She just separately said that she did not see Trump do anything untoward.
FERGUSON: That's the quote. And so I go back to the point he made, which is that he said --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Because I don't want people to think that it was -- that she was responding to Democrats, which she was not. But go ahead.
BLOW: Here's the thing. First of all, Joe Biden was not on the plane. He was not at the island. There you go, jump to another subject. Was not on the plane, was not there. Everybody said, well, Joe Biden didn't do whatever. The Democrats were never saying don't release. The Republicans now are saying don't release. What is that about?
FERGUSON: That's not true. I said release it.
BLOW: I'm sorry.
FERGUSON: I'm staying consistent.
(CROSSTALKS)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Ironically, the reason this is such an issue right now is because Republicans campaigned on it and made it a big issue. Frankly, shame on the Biden DOJ for not having been more proactive and thank you to the Republicans, the manosphere, all the blogosphere, the Republican right wing who spent the campaign making this into a big issue.
FERGUSON: And I'd say now release it. As long as you protect the victims, release as much --
STACY SCHNEIDER, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR, U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT: But what you said about the victim --
NAVARRO: Sorry, go ahead.
SCHNEIDER: We don't -- no one cares about the victims. The whole exercise --
FERGUSON: The Democratic Party did not care about Jeffrey Epstein.
SCHNEIDER: That's an absurd --
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: That why we started the show. The government just got unshutdown and we're like, Jeffrey Epstein's.
SCHNEIDER: Wait a minute, you can say it over, over and over again. That's a crazy, absurd talking point, and I don't even know what the point of view going in that direction is. Everybody here cares about the victims. That's why we're going down this avenue to expose what went on and what is covered up. And to say this -- wait. You said it three times to say this is about the Democrats not taking action, Pam Bondi -- wait a minute. This administration came out with Pam Bondi, paraded her out and said, the file is on my desk and I'm going to open it to all of you. Kash Patel, same thing, nothing is coming out. The --
FERGUSON: A lot's come out. That's not true.
SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry, no.
FERGUSON: A lot has come out.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, because Democrats are pulling it out and Republicans are pulling it out. He who doth protest too much has something to hide.
PHILLIP: Stacy, I want to get you on this because I think this is important. A few months ago, the deputy attorney general interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
PHILLIP: She said this, when asked, well, in the context of this interview about Donald Trump. Listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHISLAINE MAXWELL, CONVICTED SEX TRAFFICKER: I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the president in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, okay, she just said that. She's been moved to a lower security prison.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
PHILLIP: Based on the emails that presumptively the DOJ has in their possessions, that would be a lie.
SCHNEIDER: It looks like a flat out lie. So, Abby, there's no secret that she's seeking a pardon. Todd Blanche can now fly back to Texas in the lower security prison she's been moved in and ask her a very key question that came out from the emails today, which we showed at the beginning of the show, which is from Epstein.
Of course, he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop. Stop what? Maybe Todd Blanche should march back to Ghislaine, who is willing to speak with him, she says, and so do her lawyers, and ask him, what did Trump ask to have stopped?
NAVARRO: Can I just say this? Look, this -- let's put this in context and think about when this was happening.
[22:10:02]
Everybody knew all of those men, all of those powerful men that would attend the Epstein dinners that would go to his house, that he would hang out with in Mar-a-Lago or in Palm Beach, they all knew what he was doing. Donald Trump knew what Epstein was doing. He had said so. He had said -- Bill Clinton knew what -- I think everybody knew what he was doing.
And it was a different time in America. Let's remember, this was before the MeToo movement. Listen, Alex Acosta, who was the U.S. attorney in Southern Florida that gave Epstein the sweetheart deal in 2008 was confirmed and vetted for labor secretary under Trump's first term. He was -- and then this wasn't a huge issue, as it should have been. The MeToo movement was in 2017. The expose in the Miami Herald by Julie K. Brown, perversion of justice was in 2018. That put the heat right back on Jeffrey Epstein.
But before that, people knowing that he had already served time under that sweetheart deal, were still hanging out with him. And I'll tell you what I think of --
FERGUSON: Serious question, was Donald Trump hanging out with him after he served time?
NAVARRO: They actually had a falling out over a real estate deal. And Jeffrey Epstein always thought --
FERGUSON: Hold on. Similar question, did they hang out after he went to prison? The answer is no.
NAVARRO: Okay. Did they hang out for Donald Trump to know that Jeffrey Epstein was --
FERGUSON: Enough that he clearly says he is a creep and kicked him out of Mar-a-Lago. I agree. He found out and got rid of him.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: Are you going to trust his pedophile or are you going to trust Donald Trump on this?
NAVARRO: I don't trust either of those.
FERGUSON: That's on you. But, I mean, you can't have it both ways.
NAVARRO: Well, because Donald Trump has never lied before.
PHILLIP: Guys, give me one second here.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Guys, no one can hear you. No one can hear you, okay? That's why I'm asking you to settle down.
Kevin is sitting here like a church mouse in the corner.
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIR, O'LEARY VENTURES: No. I love chaos. I love chaos. I love chaos.
PHILLIP: Kevin, listen --
O'LEARY: I love it. I love chaos.
PHILLIP: -- the White House -- you're a smart guy. The White House, they convene a Situation Room meeting. They bring Lauren Boebert over to the White House to try to strong arm her into not voting to release the Epstein files. If this is a nothing burger, as Ben is suggesting, why are they acting so aggressively to shut this whole thing down? Why not say, actually, let's release the Epstein files? You're not going to find anything in here that incriminates the president?
O'LEARY: So, let's just look at facts, because, I mean, everybody has a political position on this. Epstein's still dead tonight, still dead. All the people that have been really hurt by this actually were caught lying in a scandal, including a member of the royal family that was stripped of his titles, all that.
NAVARRO: Say that again. All the people that were really hurt?
O'LEARY: Yes. Yes.
NAVARRO: But, really, the people that were really hurt are the women, Kevin.
O'LEARY: Yes. Yes. And I'm not --
NAVARRO: The young girls.
O'LEARY: I don't think having sex --
NAVARRO: Who want closure and one truth and one transparency.
O'LEARY: Well, let me finish, or are you -- you got something more?
NAVARRO: Yes, the people hurt is not Prince Andrew.
O'LEARY: Thank goodness you're here.
NAVARRO: But that's ridiculous for you to say that the person hurt is Prince Andrew.
PHILLIP: Kevin, is that what you were --
O'LEARY: I'm trying to finish a thought, work with me on this, okay? Work with me.
NAVARRO: Okay. Well, makes sense though, please.
O'LEARY: No. I'm going to help you so much tonight. So, at the end of the day, what we care about here is don't have sex with young girls. That's bad. If you did that --
PHILLIP: Okay. Just to be clear, having sex with young girls is not sex.
O'LEARY: Illegal.
PHILLIP: It is rape.
O'LEARY: And if you did it, you should go to jail, okay? Insinuating this on everybody, that anybody had anything to do with Epstein, that everybody involved had sex with young girls is a falsehood.
Now, those that did it, by the time this is over are screwed, and they should be screwed, and there are victims. But at the end of the day, so much of this, as you've just seen here tonight, is completely political.
PHILLIP: Kevin, we're going to listen in. Hold on. We're listening to President Trump. He's at the White House signing the government shut down bill. Let's listen in.
TRUMP: Well, thank you very much. This is a big day, a big night. It's very important what has taken place because we've seen how good government can be and how bad government can be if people don't know what they're doing.
For the past 43 days, Democrats in Congress shut down the government of the United States in an attempt to extort American taxpayers for hundreds of billions of dollars for illegal aliens and people that came into our country illegally, from gangs, from prisons, from mental institutions, they wanted to pay them $1.5 trillion, which would've really hurt our healthcare businesses and our recipients at levels never seen before.
[22:15:19]
Today, we're sending a clear message that we will never give into extortion, because that's what it was that. They tried to extort -- The Democrats tried to extort our country
In just a moment, I'll sign a bill exactly like we asked Democrats to send us all along many days ago. This cost the country $1.5 trillion, this little excursion that they took us on. Republicans never wanted a shutdown and voted 15 times for a clean continuation of funding. There's never been a time when one or the other party ever didn't sign a continuation. It's just a continuation. Not a big deal. It's a continuation and we'll talk later. Yet, the extremists in the other party insisted on creating the longest government shutdown in American history, and they did it purely for political reasons.
I want to thank Speaker Mike Johnson, Senate Majority Leader John Thune, as well as House Majority Leader Steve Scalise, Majority Whipped Tom Emmer, and numerous other great Republican leaders and congressmen and senators who are here and frankly spent a long time in Washington getting this thing to go away.
I also want to thank the broad coalition of Americans that stood with us in this fight to reopen government, including the Teamsters, the American Federation of Government Employees, the Fraternal Order of Police, and that's the National Small Business Association, the American Farm Bureau, the American Trucking Association. These are all incredible patriots, the Airlines for America, the Allied Pilots Association, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, and many, many others, unions and non-unions.
Over the past seven weeks, the Democrats' shutdown has inflicted massive harm. They caused 20,000 flights to be canceled or delayed. They departed so many times so late. People were hurt so badly. Nobody's ever seen anything like this one. This was a no brainer. This was an easy extension, but they didn't want to do it the easy way. They had to do it the hard way. And they looked very bad, the Democrats do. They deprived more than 1 million government workers from their paychecks and cut off food stamp benefits for millions and millions more Americans in need.
They caused tens of thousands of federal contractors and small businesses to go unpaid and the total effect of the damage here and take scores (ph) will take weeks and probably months to really calculate accurately, including the serious harm that they did to our economy and to people and to families. So, I just want to tell the American people, you should not forget this. When we come up to midterms and other things, don't forget what they've done to our country.
I also want to call for a termination to the filibuster so that this could never happen again. If we had the filibuster terminated, this would never happen again. And don't forget, we have another date coming up in the not too distant future. We can never let this happen again, and we should be able to pass great, really great legislation. So, I say terminate the filibuster because, by the way, the Democrats will do it immediately if they ever assumed office, which hopefully they won't.
Today, we had the highest stock market price ever in all of the different markets. We set a record. It's the 48th time in the nine months that I've been in office that we had this record set. So, think of that, 48 times, we had a record set, but today is the highest of them all. We're going to break new grounds nobody would've thought.
I have with us not only the great political leaders, but the great business leaders of our country. They're standing right behind me and right really alongside of me. And if we would've told them a year ago that we'd be having stock prices decide, none of them, in fact, I just asked them that question, none of them would've believed it. And that inures to jobs and very importantly to 401(k)s, which have also set a record today, a record high for the people that have 401(k)s.
And also I want to thank Walmart because they came up with a fantastic study. It was the cost of Thanksgiving coming up and the cost of Thanksgiving from a year ago under Sleepy Joe Biden, and with 25 percent lower this year than we were a year ago. And it's a very inclusive report. So, I want to thank Walmart. They've done it for many years, but we believe in that. We believe in that company.
[22:20:00]
I want to also thank the eight Senate Democrats who finally did the right thing in voting to end this craziness, this madness, but, unfortunately, the vast majority of Congressional Democrats were happy for millions of Americans to suffer. They really did suffer too. And the Democrats admitted, they said, well, no, we finally have a point. Even though people have to suffer, we finally have a point. And that didn't work out too well for them. But they really went out and they could appease the fringe benefits of their far left base, but that didn't work out because now their far left base is angrier than ever before.
We actually elected a mayor of New York City who happens to be a communist. When was that going to happen? Remember I said all the time during my campaign, we will never be a socialist country. And that's right. We turned out to have a communist in New York City. And if you look at his views, those are the views of a communist, not a socialist. So, this is no way to run a country. I hope we can all agree that the government should never be shut down again, and, again, end the filibuster, terminate the filibuster, it'll never happen again.
So, with my signature, the federal government will now resume normal operations, and my administration and our partners in Congress will continue our work to lower the cost of living, restore public safety, grow our economy, and make America affordable again for all Americans. Again, costs are way down. Energy is way down. Gasoline is it $2.50 cents a gallon versus $4.70 cents for the Democrats. And we think we're going to hit pretty close to $2 a gallon. That's like a really massive tax cut. It's the equivalent of that.
And speaking of tax cuts, our great big, beautiful bill is giving everybody in our economy, middle income workers, low income, everybody, the biggest tax cut in the history of our country. And it's no tax on tips, no tax on Social Security, and very importantly, no tax on overtime. You work overtime, there's no tax. That's among the things that add up to the biggest tax cut in history.
One other thing, you know, you hear about rich people with deductions. Well, when you buy your car and you borrow money, you're allowed to now deduct the interest on that loan so you can take that interest deduction and what you can take is that interest payment and deducted for income tax purposes. That's a tremendous tax cut right there.
But it all includes fixing the healthcare system the Democrats broke with the disaster known as Obamacare. Obamacare was a disaster from day one. It's done nothing but go up. And if you remember President Barack Hussein Obama, when he came up with this crazy idea, he said, everything's going to be great. Rates are going to go down, payments are going to go down, everything's going to go down. It went the exact opposite with the biggest increase of any of healthcare in any country. It's a disaster.
And I'm calling today for insurance companies not to be paid, but for the money, this massive amount of money to be paid directly to the people of our country so that they can buy their own healthcare, which will be far better and far less expensive than the disaster known as Obamacare. And I've had, I think, great support. I've even had Democrat support. So, we want the money that would be going to the insurance company, which is hundreds of billions of dollars.
You know, their stock prices have gone up by 1,000 percent, in many cases, 1,000 percent over a short period of time because our country stupidly pays them so much money with this Obamacare scandal. So, I want the money to go directly to you, the people, and you'll go out and you'll buy your own health insurance and you'll negotiate different plans and you'll get much better insurance and you'll be an entrepreneur for yourself.
So, I'm always willing to work with anyone, including the other party. We'll work on something having to do with healthcare. We can do a lot better. We can do great. So much money is involved and we're willing to pay so much money to the people. So, we're going to pay a lot of money to the people. They're going to go out and buy their own healthcare, and we're going to forget this Obamacare madness. So, with all of that, I just want to tell you, the country has never been in better shape. We went through this short-term disaster with the Democrats because they thought it would be good politically. And it's an honor now to sign this incredible bill and get our country working again. Thank you.
[22:25:00]
Okay. Thank you very much. I don't know if you have questions. I think we really -- I think we really have a really great situation. We have a country that we love and we have a country that's in great shape. As you know, we have over -- now it's over $18 trillion invested in our country by other people and countries. That's a record that's never been a country that had so much. And that money's going into also building new auto plants, new A.I. plants, new everything. We've never had a time like this.
Thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. It's a great day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well done Mr. President.
PHILLIP: All right. President Trump and the White House staff ushering the press out of the room, he did not take any questions. A couple of things on that, that what he just said. He talked about reopening the government and he blamed Democrats, but he talked about stock prices a lot, 401(k)s. He said prices are down, which they are not. He says he's going to give money directly to Americans to buy healthcare, which is a controversial idea, given that many experts say that would actually raise healthcare costs. So, there's a lot there. And also his demeanor tonight struck me as defiant, I mean, understandably so because of the government shutdown, but also perhaps because of this Epstein stuff that is sort of hovering over all of this.
FERGUSON: I don't think he's singing about Epstein right now. I think he's pissed off that the Democratic Party did the same deal that was on the table before the shutdown. They held Americans hostage. They hurt American families that are working. They hurt more than a million government workers didn't get paychecks. They hurt families that need food stamps to put food on the table. And Democrats even voted against that by itself. This was the same exact deal that was on the table before the shutdown. So, this was only about one thing.
PHILLIP: I don't think it was the same exact --
FERGUSON: It was exactly the same deal. I mean, Democrats said that. There was Congress people today in the Democratic Party that said, yes, this was what was on the table at the beginning of the shutdown, before we had a shutdown down. It's the same thing. The president's on edge tonight, and I hope people understand this because he just watched the American people be held hostage for 40 days for something stupid for politics.
PHILLIP: Well, one thing to note is that he takes questions all day long, to his credit. He did not take questions. O'LEARY: I think what we've learned tonight, which is consistent with other shutdowns, you can keep the government shut down until someone sits on a runway for seven hours on their way home for a holiday. They get so pissed. They don't care if they're red or blue, and it hurts every politician. And that's exactly what happened in the last 48 hours, same deal. It wasn't anything else except the transit of America got shut down and people got pissed and they called in to the representation, said, hey, bozos, get back to Washington and turn this thing back on, you morons.
And I think that's kind of important because at the end of the day, you're elected to serve the people. And when they can't move around to see their families or do business or conduct the economy, they get pissed.
NAVARRO: But it's pretty outrageous just to me that Donald Trump, who is the most powerful president regarding his party, the way that he can usher his party together and get them to do whatever he wants, most powerful president of my lifetime in either party, and I think he shirked his responsibility as president of the United States and leader to convene Republicans and Democrats and get a deal crafted. Because all we've done right now kick this can down the road.
We're going to be in the same problem in a matter of weeks, what, by the end of January. And we're going to have a healthcare issue that's going to become incredibly urgent.
O'LEARY: Take a lot longer than a week to solve that one.
NAVARRO: Well, here's the problem. Enrolment (INAUDIBLE) up now and premiums are up 200, 300 percent.
BLOW: I want to bring up the people who don't take the planes, don't have the money to take the planes, don't take flights. He just sit there and lied and talked about Democrats wanted to deprive people of SNAP.
FERGUSON: They voted to make sure they didn't get it.
BLOW: I'm going to just talk over you because you thought you're being rude. They went into court to lobby the judges to make sure that they could not tap into the emergency funds that would've paid the SNAP because they wanted to use it as a negotiating tool.
SCHNEIDER: And when you said they, you mean the government went to (inaudible), to keep people from getting (inaudible). Wait, wait. During the shutdown. During the shutdown.
BLOW: Right. The government. Trump's lawyers went and had a vote. Right.
FERGUSON: You guys voted no 14 times.
BLOW: Right. They did that.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Guys. UNKNOWN: Wait, wait. The government did not need to go to the courts.
BLOW: But here's the thing.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
UNKNOWN: And to stop paying benefits.
PHILLIP: Charles, finish your thought.
BLOW: That they were almost hungry. No one will forget that they were almost hungry. No one would -- no amount --
FERGUSON: As the Democrats.
BLOW: No amount of lying is going to make you look at your health insurance going up twice, about three times, and going to make that okay because he says that the stock market is up. Because you're not in the stock market. You don't have 401k. You're just trying to straight by. You're just trying to feed the kids and keep the lights on.
FERGUSON: Charles, how many times did the Democrats vote --
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: That's what's going to happen. That's what's going to happen.
FERGUSON: -- to approve food stamps in the shutdown?
BLOW: That's what's going to happen.
FERGUSON: How many times did the Democrats vote --
BLOW: Are you talking to me?
FERGUSON: Yes. I said Charles.
BLOW: I'm not (inaudible) that.
PHILLIP: But, okay.
BLOW: Go ahead.
FERGUSON: No, no, that's a real question.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on one second.
FERGUSON: Oh, my gosh. It's a question you (inaudible).
PHILLIP: Ben, calm down. It's okay. You just made that same --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You can't rewrite history. PHILLIP: But hold on. You just made that same point. But Charles, given what you just said, Democrats, they took the deal and they reopen the government without actually getting what they fought.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Yes.
PHILLIP: And so, at the end of the day, I mean, they fought that fight.
BLOW: Right.
PHILLIP: But they didn't really get a whole lot out of it.
BLOW: Right. And that's -- and that's where I do agree with you. So, --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But you know, you're running this contest.
BLOW: If I can finish this, if I can finish this like you wanted to finish, I want to finish. I understand that part where people don't get a lot out of shutdowns ever. Whoever is holding it up, they almost never get their way. But what the Democrats did do was put a big spotlight on this fact.
These guys have passed a bill that's going to jack your insurance up through the roof. And we are trying to figure out a way to slow this down and stop --
(CROSSTALK)
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: Hey, hey, --
BLOW: -- this from happening until it happens.
PHILLIP: So, that's okay. So, let me --
(CROSSTALK)
O'LEARY: All G7 countries now, all G7, not just the United States of America, healthcare is broken. No one is fixed it.
FERGUSON: Skyrocketing fast.
O'LEARY: Nobody knows how to fix it yet, because you've got an aging population lasting 20 years longer than you did in the 50s, and it's really, really expensive. So, they're not going to fix it in the government shutdown in one week. Obamacare was a shot, it didn't work.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yes. And look.
BLOW: What do you mean it didn't work?
PHILLIP: Hold on. Hold on a second. I want to hit pause.
O'LEARY: It didn't work.
PHILLIP: I want to hit pause on this conversation because we have to go to break. Kevin just made a really important point about the fact that this is a broad healthcare problem. And also, the question now becomes who's going to fix it? Is the president going to fix it?
Next for us also, President Trump mentioned the economy, but MAGA's base is livid tonight over some remarks he's been making about it. Another special guest is going to join us at this debate table. Stand by for that.
[22:35:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, some of Donald Trump's supporters are declaring MAGA is dead after his interview endorsing the use of H-1B visas to fill jobs domestically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We also do have to bring in talent when the country --
(CROSSTALK)
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: We have plenty of talented people here.
TRUMP: No, no. You don't. No, you don't.
INGRAHAM: We don't have talented people here?
TRUMP: No, you don't have certain talents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, inside of MAGA world, these comments are going over at about exactly as you would expect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES FISHBACK, ENTREPRENEUR & CEO OF AZORIA: That is a slanderous lie that is being used to enable the great replacement of American workers. America is for Americans. We cannot make America great again with Indians. We cannot make America great again with the Chinese. We have to make America great again with the people of this country. America is our birthright.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And to make matters worse for Trump, in attempting to clarify the policy, his chief immigration officer is doing him no favors. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Under the Trump administration, we've sped up our process and added integrity to the visa programs, to green cards, to all of that, but also more people are becoming naturalized under this administration than ever before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joining us in our fifth seat is Chris Matthews. His new book is out today, "Lessons From Bobby." Chris, good to see you.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, AUTHOR, LESSONS FROM BOBBY: Thank you.
PHILLIP: So, in another world, Trump's comments plus, you know, his Homeland Security chief's comments would be normal, nothing to see here. In MAGA world this is slanderous to have more immigrants in this country and I don't know. It's interesting to me. I wonder what you think, why has Trump in this place?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Have you ever been to a naturalization ceremony?
PHILLIP: Actually, no, I haven't.
MATTHEWS: They're unbelievable.
PHILLIP: Well, I would say --
MATTHEWS: Judge Ferrero (Ph) is amazing. You look at the room people from all over the world who went through all the trouble becoming citizens who really believed that they know more about the Declaration of Independence and other founding documents than most of us, many people, they do their work to become citizens. They love this country. They wave flags. I love it.
And yet, and if you're against illegal immigration, which is against the law by definition, you should be for legal immigration. J.D. Vance is running around the country saying, I don't -- I don't believe in it. That's a strange philosophy to be against people becoming Americans. We like America. People wanting to become America is what we would are.
PHILLIP: Not -- not in MAGA world right now.
MATTHEWS: I don't quite understand the illegal.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MATTHEWS: The going against people who legally provide, they're sitting over and pull under somewhere and they go through all the paperwork and they do all this stuff.
BLOW: I don't think the Polish ones are the ones they're objecting to. MATTHEWS: Well, they don't like Indians or Chinese, I guess.
BLOW: Yes.
FERGUSON: Or Mexicans or anybody else that's on the block.
PHILLIP: So, Ben, help us understand this. Why is Trump thumbing his eye at his base on two issues that he knows that they care a lot about? You know part of this is back when he was running in 2016, he actually had a very well, kind of strong position on H-1Bs.
[22:40:09]
Let me just play what he said in 2016.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know the H-1B very well and it's something that I frankly use and I shouldn't be allowed to use, we shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers and second of all, I think it's very important to say, well, I'm a businessman and I have to do what I have to do and it's sitting there waiting for you but it's very bad. It's very bad for business in terms of, it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers and we should end it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, it's no surprise that MAGA is wondering where that guy went.
FERGUSON: I don't think this is as big of an issue in MAGA world as you're implying that it is. I think there's some that are upset. I think there's a lot of people in MAGA world that are saying as long as you come to this country legally, you don't break into this country, you do it the right way, you go through the paperwork the right way, that there's not an issue here.
I literally do a show every day called the 47 Morning Update. It is not on the top 10 list of subjects today because a lot of people in quote, "MAGA world" understood what the president was saying here. And I think his point was there are skilled workers. There are certain industries where we can bring in workers and that makes sense.
Does it mean that we have a country that has no border where we have lawlessness and we have anarchy and we people running across the border and working illegally and illegal immigrants? That is what MAGA world does care about. They want a secure border, they want an orderly immigration system, and they're not saying keep everyone out or keep some workers out or all workers out. They're saying do it the legal and right way.
(CROSSTALK)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. We just saw 180- degree shift between the Trump from 2016.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance just a couple of days ago, he was speaking publicly, and he made it very clear. In fact, I think he said explicitly to a student at a Turning Point event we have too much immigration in this country. He didn't say too much illegal immigration. He said too much immigration in this country. So, I am not making --
O'LEARY: Let me filter that comment.
PHILLIP: Hold on. No, no, don't filter. Let's just listen to what people are saying. He was, and trust me, I'm not taking him out of context. He was asked a question actually by somebody who was in an intimate relationship with an immigrant. And he said we have to face it, we have too much immigration in this country.
That is a real thing in MAGA world. You can't pretend that it's not.
O'LEARY: Let me speak for a second.
PHILLIP: There are many people in the MAGA world --
O'LEARY: Wait a second.
PHILLIP: -- who thinks that we will just let too many people in.
O'LEARY: Let's put it through reality check.
PHILLIP: Legal or not.
O'LEARY: Number one economy on earth, the American economy. How was it built? Immigration. Look after the Second World War the scientists we brought into this country. We curate the best. We bring them here to create jobs and companies.
What's going on right now in policy that I don't agree with is, I teach at Harvard and at MIT and many other colleges. If we don't bring, we curate these amazing students from all over the world and we bring them into a cohort to train them how to become entrepreneurs in America. They want to stay. If we don't do it, --
FERGUSON: They do the right way.
O'LEARY: -- the Chinese will. So I'm just saying let's figure this out. Do we want the Chinese to train them or do we want them? We want them.
NAVARRO: Okay. But let me -- totally.
O'LEARY: Every single one of them to stay here. I want them to get their passports, their families get passports, they create jobs, and I will invest in them. Every single one of them.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me ask a real quick question. A $100,000 per H-1B. Does that make sense?
O'LEARY: Snuts! That's a crazy idea.
NAVARRO: Okay, let me explain to you about the $100,000 and let me explain to you why Donald Trump has changed his tune on H-1Bs. Because today he hangs out with the CEOs of the big tech companies, right? They were at the front row of his swearing in. They come to the White House all the time. They're the ones funding his ballroom. They're the ones donating to any pet project that he wants.
I'm talking about Tim Cook and Bezos and Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and all of those folks.
FERGUSON: All those big Democrat donors.
NAVARRO: All of those folks who have -- all of those folks who have Trump's ear are telling him how important H-1Bs are to their businesses.
PHILLIP: Right.
NAVARRO: Why the $100,000 fee? Because there's only 65,000 H-1Bs available in the country every year. And there's almost half a million people that apply, companies that apply. What happens now is that the Googles and the Microsofts and the Amazons are going to edge out the community hospitals in rural areas.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: They're already -- they're already edging them out. Amazon is number one.
NAVARRO: And because they can afford to pay the $100,000.
PHILLIP: Thirteen thousand.
NAVARRO: The rural hospital in Iowa cannot pay that.
PHILLIP: They're already edging them out. Thirteen thousand H-1Bs in 2025 so far have gone to Amazon, Meta is behind at 6,000, Microsoft, Tata, Google, Apple, Walmart.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: yes, but they're all, right now they're all (inaudible). So, before the 100,000 (inaudible).
[22:44:59]
PHILLIP: Let me just raise one more thing about this. The H-1B issue, I think, is just one part of this. I think Trump is also trying to spin this now to make it as if it is not actually about the Amazons, the Metas, the Microsofts.
Here is Scott Bessent, the Treasury Secretary, talking about who, according to him, is coming in via these H-1B visas, and we'll talk. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I think the president's vision here is to bring in overseas workers where these jobs went.
BRIAN KILMEADE, CO-HOST, FOX NEWS: Who have skills.
BESSENT: Who have the skills, three, five, seven years to train the U.S. workers, then they can go home, the U.S. workers fully take over. That's it.
KILMEADE: So do you understand the concern that some people have? Hey, an American can have that job, why are giving it to an (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
BESSENT: But an American can have that job.
KILMEADE: So, it's specific skills.
BESSENT: Because we haven't built ships in the U.S. for years. We haven't built semiconductors. So, this idea of overseas partners coming in, teaching American workers, then returning home, that's a home run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, a couple things about that. First of all, the hand holding was amusing in that clip. But the H-1Bs right now are not going to shipbuilders. And --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: They don't go to ships here.
PHILLIP: Well, yes, but also because if you're building --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I mean, that's why they're not going in.
PHILLIP: Hold on. If you're building ships for the U.S. military, you're probably not doing it on an H-1B. That's the first thing. But the second thing is they're trying to sort of shoehorn this policy into their sort of, their tariff policy, and it's really not that.
I do think the H-1B program needs some attention. It needs some degree of reform.
O'LEARY: Abby, do you want the next Einstein to come to America or to Shanghai?
FERGUSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: No, no, no.
O'LEARY: What do you want?
FERGUSON: It's about fighting for talent. He would be brilliant.
PHILLIP: I'm not against an H-1B visa, folks. I'm the daughter of immigrants. Both my parents are naturalized citizens of this country.
O'LEARY: So you should be bringing people here.
PHILLIP: I am saying there are real concerns that people have about companies that abuse the system.
O'LEARY: We're talking about genius. Bringing 65,000 geniuses to America.
PHILLIP: Kevin, you know that it is not just geniuses. Sometimes they're abusing the system and sort of bringing in medium to low wage workers to --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: How many of them are at Meta or at Microsoft?
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, listen, I'n not --
FERGUSON: -- or at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, or at in the (inaudible) where they have --
PHILLIP: Hold on. I'm not arguing against H-1Bs. I'm just saying the percentage of those visas that go to life sciences is 1.9 percent. Mathematics and physical sciences 2.9 percent, 4.4 percent go to medicine and health.
FERGUSON: Right, but what percentage of the economy is that?
PHILLIP: Six -- hold on a second.
FERGUSON: It's probably, I bet you it's pretty close to that.
PHILLIP: Sixty-five percent of H-1B visas go to computer-related jobs.
FERGUSON: Yes.
PHILLIP: All I'm saying --
FERGUSON: What's wrong with that? That's technology.
PHILLIP: All I am saying is that actually I think you're right. Maybe there's an argument to be made that more of those visas should be available for rural hospitals, should be available for people in the life sciences.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And here's -- so let me --
PHILLIP: Should be available for researchers, should be available to the geniuses in other fields.
FERGUSON: So let me go back to the core --
PHILLIP: That's what some people are arguing. I think that's their argument.
O'LEARY: My whole point is at the end of the day it's a competition globally and it's between two giant economies. China and the United States of America.
FERGUSON: And I go with America.
O'LEARY: And listen, there's nobody else that compares in terms of the size of the economies. Right now, why is Zuckerberg paying $100 million for 10 years for one A.I. scientist? Because we don't have enough of them in America. Say there's a kid or a woman in Pakistan that is 14 years old that's clearly a math genius.
FERGUSON: Yes.
O'LEARY: And we're going to say, no, you go to China and we'll compete with you later. How about we bring them into this country like we did in the 50s? Like, how (inaudible).
PHILLIP: I told you --
BLOW: Nobody is arguing against this.
PHILLIP: Yes. I don't know what --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You guys are against Donald Trump changing a little bit on this. You guys are mad at Trump for actually adapting to what we're discussing right now.
PHILLIP: Ben, I think you're arguing with yourself.
FERGUSON: I'm not arguing with myself.
BLOW: I'm so confused right now.
FERGUSON: All right, I'll explain in five seconds.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Hold on second.
FERGUSON: Trump document.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
BLOW: You have not explained anything in five seconds.
FERGUSON: Well, let's see, carefully, don't interrupt and maybe you'll get it five seconds.
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Ben, hold on a second.
FERGUSON: You ready?
PHILLIP: You're arguing. The reason you're arguing with yourself is because we're trying to have a conversation about policy and you keep wanting to make this about whether Donald Trump is right or wrong.
FERGUSON: Because you guys don't understand Trump policy and I'm trying to explain to you.
PHILLIP: No, no, no.
FERGUSON: Trump's policy is simple. When you have 20 million people that break in this country or 15 million --
PHILLIP: Ben? Ben?
FERGUSON: -- he doesn't like that.
PHILLIP: Just a second.
FERGUSON: He wants skilled workers to come in the right way.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: So, was he wrong in 2016 when he was against H-1Bs?
FERGUSON: This is literally why I don't understand why you guys hate him so much.
NAVARRO: Oh, I can give you a list, but I need a lot more than five seconds.
FERGUSON: If you look since '16. If you look from '16 and Donald Trump changes (inaudible) so he becomes president.
NAVARRO: I hate -- I don't like him because of racism.
FERGUSON: Okay. I know why you don't like him.
NAVARRO: I don't like him because he's sexual abuser.
PHILLIP: All right.
NAVARRO: I don't like him because he's convicted under 34 counts. Should I continue?
[22:49:59]
PHILLIP: I'm going to let Chris have a quick word, because I kind of think that this conversation is sort of going sideways because I know Ben really wants us to be fighting about Donald Trump, but really, we're actually trying to have a conversation about immigration policy. So, okay.
FERGUSON: Which involves the president wanting more (inaudible) go to work.
PHILLIP: Let's put Trump to the side for just a second because again, the only people -- I don't know in this room maybe there are no MAGA Republicans in this room opposed to H-1Bs, but there are some. Nobody disagrees with Trump that H-1Bs are actually a valuable asset, not in this room. But some people in your party do.
Separately, Chris, I wonder what you think of all of this.
MATTHEWS: Well, I wrote a book about Bobby Kennedy so we'll get to that soon. We'll get to that soon. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out the vagaries of the MAGA movement. It seems like there are different directions.
When I hear J.D. Vance who I think is a person seeking to succeed Donald Trump, I think it's a fair assumption he like to be the next president. Right? Why is he saying I don't like immigrants per se? Why is he saying that?
PHILLIP: I don't want to put words in his mouth. He didn't say I don't like immigrants.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: No, no, no, no. I'm not putting words in his mouth.
PHILLIP: He said we --
MATTHEWS: He's against illegal immigration and legal. Both. There's too many.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He said --
MATTHEWS: That's he said. That's words in his mouth. Did he come out against all kinds of immigration?
PHILLIP: I think there's a policy movement in the Republican Party to reduce overall immigration levels. I don't want to place judgment about whether or not --
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, that's what I'm asking about. I just want to find out, is there a movement among Republican MAGA people who believe that we have too much immigration, generally speaking?
FERGUSON: I think when you have 15 to 20 million illegal immigrants, the answer is yes. And that was the vice president's point, which is we have far too many people in this country legally and illegally.
MATTHEWS: Right.
FERGUSON: The numbers need to come down.
MATTHEWS: Is that a common belief?
FERGUSON: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: This is --
FERGUSON: Because (inaudible), and this is why --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Why do we have far too many legal immigrants?
FERGUSON: It's too many if you put everything in one box.
PHILLIP: No, no. Legal. Legal.
FERGUSON: I'm in favor of legal. It's what I started this evening with a saying.
BLOW: The word (inaudible) is black and brown.
FERGUSON: Again, you look at everything as racism. I look at things right and wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: No, no, no. I look at it at what it is.
FERGUSON: I think it's sad that you have 20 million illegal immigrants have taken the place of people that want to come to this country legally the right way.
PHILLIP: All right. We have to take a break.
FERGUSON: I think (inaudible) to come legally, not illegally.
MATTHEWS: Let's be honest. Let's be honest about American history. Let me talk about an honest statement about American history on race. An honest statement. If all the people coming across the southern border were Dutch, would anybody give a damn?
FERGUSON: If it's 20 million? Yes.
MATTHEWS: Not at all.
FERGUSON: Yes, we would, 20 million people --
MATTHEWS: We would probably be concerned about too many Dutch people.
BLOW: Not at all.
PHILLIP: All right. We will be back.
MATTHEWS: Give me a break. That's not true and you know that.
FERGUSON: If it's 20 million, yes, it would be true.
MATTHEWS: Too many Dutch people.
FERGUSON: If 20 million broke in --
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: All right, welcome back. We are in the middle of a national conversation as a pretty divided nation about affordability and about whether this country works for everyone. And you have a new book out about someone who campaigned on that very idea.
MATTHEWS: Yes, Bobby Kennedy was, of course, the Attorney General of the United States. And he would say things like, to blow your mind, he'd say, before I was attorney general, I didn't care about African Americans. I didn't care about injustice. I learned a lot. You know, when one of his top guys, John Seigenthaler got bashed in the head. And people like Harry Belafonte got behind him and he went down to Ole Miss and the Ole Miss governor, the governor of Mississippi said, that boy, he said that boy will not go to Ole Miss and Bobby won.
Today, James Meredith, his statue's on the wall there on the campus. And look at SEC football, it's an integrated university. All of the southern universities are integrated because of Bobby. And yet, when he died along the funeral train after he'd been shot in California, the funeral train take him from St. Patrick's Cathedral where they had the mass down to Arlington Cemetery where his brother was already buried.
The people along the tracks were 20,000 people in my hometown of Philadelphia singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic for the Civil War spontaneously. And all of them in between the cities there were these white guys of the white families poor. I once covered one thing in writing this book. Poor people live near train tracks right next to the train tracks nobody's looking for that real estate and they were there saluting one guy had his whole family in birth order standing in attention to Bobby Kennedy.
And that's an amazing thing in American content. Today, we go to our own Thanksgiving dinner tables and I'm afraid of my brother-in-law I got to deal with that and there's always a fight over. If you're with Trump, you're with Trump 100 percent and if you're against Trump, you hate him. And it's just a stupid fight, I'm sorry, you had it here, which goes on and on and on.
PHILLIP: But I mean the very fact of his assassination was proof that there was a desire to shut that unity down, right?
MATTHEWS: He was also, in all fairness, this guy Christian Palestinian did it. It was about the Middle East. No surprise today, it's things are about the Middle East. And he was very pro-Israeli at the time. But you know, it was a -- they were really trying to --
(CROSSTALK) O'LEARY: The same theme exists today almost 50 years later.
NAVARRO: Oh, it's a millennia.
MATTHEWS: So, next, coming up next, there are all these peace talks. I mean, it's reality.
O'LEARY: And this guy is still alive in prison.
[23:00:01]
MATTHEWS: Yes, I think you're right. And I think it's because he has never really sort of gone through the process of changing his life.
O'LEARY: Maybe you shouldn't kill famous people because John Lennon's assassin is still.
MATTHEWS: I'm afraid.
NAVARRO: Maybe you shouldn't kill any people.
MATTHEWS: That's when I disagree with you. I think Bobby Kennedy said you can't assassinate and remove something.
PHILLIP: All right.
MATTHEWS: There's still a spirit.
PHILLIP: Thank you very much, everyone.
MATTHEWS: Hey, thank you for having me on. Good luck with your book.
PHILLIP: That's "Lessons From Bobby," and thank you very much for watching Newsnight. You can catch me anytime on social media. In the meantime, Laura Coates Live starts right now.
