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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Backlash After DOJ Opens Criminal Probe Into Fed Chair Powell; Minnesota, Twin Cities Sue Trump Admin Over ICE Invasion; DHS Sending1,000 More Troops To Minnesota After ICE Shooting; Trump Says Iran Is Crossing the Red line. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 12, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, break the bank. The DOJ takes Donald Trump's vendetta against the Fed to an extraordinary level.
JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats
PHILLIP: Plus, more gasoline. After Isis shooting of a citizen in Minneapolis, DHS is flooding the state with more agents.
MAYOR JACOB FREY (D-MINNEAPOLIS, MN): These are not normal times.
PHILLIP: While the White House attacks those speaking up.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Apparently, they are protesting the removal of heinous murderers.
PHILLIP: Also, what's America's red line? After protesters are killed in Iran, will the U.S. attack?
The president says he regrets not seizing voting machines at his first term. So, will he during the sequel?
Live at the table, Marc Short, Julie Roginsky, Noah Rothman, Chris Jones and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, another name appears to get highlighted on Donald Trump's enemies list. In an unprecedented move, the Justice Department is ordering a criminal investigation into the Federal Reserve chairman, Jerome Powell. They're claiming that he lied to Congress about the scope of renovations of the central banks building. Now, that renovation started at $1.9 billion, but it has risen to $2.5 billion.
Now, remember, Trump doesn't like Powell simply because he wants interest rates lowered faster than the Fed has been willing to go. Powell denies any wrongdoing. And he broke his usual silence over Trump's attacks to respond to this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POWELL: This unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure.
The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A source tells CNN the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent is unhappy with this decision to investigate Powell, and he's warned Trump before of the impact that it could have on markets.
Now, the White House says that Trump didn't direct this investigation, but if you listen to his many, many attacks, there's a clear motivation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REPORTER: Did the president ever direct DOJ officials to open an investigation into Powell?
LEAVITT: No.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'd love to fire his ass. He should be fine.
We're thinking about bringing a suit against Powell for incompetence.
The guy's grossly incompetent and he should be sued.
I'd love to get the guy currently in there out right now.
I would remove them in a heartbeat.
I mean, it's possible there's fraud involved with the $2.5, $2.7 billion renovation.
REPORTER: And can you reassure the American public that his longstanding criticisms and public comments about Powell had nothing to do with the investigation?
LEAVITT: Well, look, the president has every right to criticize the Fed chair. He has a First Amendment right, just like all of you do.
As for whether or not, Jerome Powell is a criminal, that's an answer the Department of Justice is going to have to find out.
TRUMP: And if we had a Fed chairman that understood what he was doing, interest rates would be coming down too.
I think he's terrible. I think he's a total stiff.
He should resign immediately. We should get somebody in there that's going to lower interest rates.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: So, this all appears to be blowing up in the White House's faces tonight. We're hearing from more and more Republicans, Marc Short, who are basically saying, we're going to hold up anybody else that Trump might want to put in this job until this is done. And then, interestingly, just a few minutes ago, Jeanine Pirro, the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C., said, the U.S. attorney's office contacted the Federal Reserve on multiple occasions to discuss cost overruns and the chairman's Congressional testimony, but we were ignored, necessitating the use of legal process, which is not a threat. The word indictment has come out of Mr. Powell's mouth, no one else's. None of this would've happened if they had just responded to our outreach.
First of all, that sounds very defensive to me. But, secondly, I mean, do you buy that cost overruns would require the U.S. attorney's office to send a subpoena to the Federal Reserve?
[22:05:01]
MARC SHORT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS DIRECTOR, FIRST TRUMP ADMINSITRATION: I think probably in this case, not, Abby. It seems pretty clear this has been the president's priority. I mean, one of the ironies is that he appointed and nominated Jerome Powell. I was --
PHILLIP: Which he seems to forget all the time.
SHORT: Well, I was in the Oval Office when he had his three finalist candidates, and his question was, who's going to keep rates lowest? And the consensus was that Powell would. And so here we are years later, and he is concerned that Powell doesn't have rates even lower.
I'm not one of these who believes that the Fed is sacrosanct and isn't worthy of criticism. And I think that when we created a Fed, it didn't have $7 or $8 trillion in assets on this book. And so I think the president has every right to criticize. But I think everybody can see through this, that this is really pushing to try to lower interest rates further more than it is a serious criminal investigation.
As you said, the reception from Senate Republicans has been really cold, and I think you'll probably see the president probably pivot and say, that was somebody else taking that investigation on.
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND SUBSTACK AUTHOR, SALTY POLITICS: Look, Ronald Reagan, I'm sure, was not happy with Paul Volcker and his behavior at the Fed, but Ronald Reagan did not constantly break Paul Volcker and in fact had to deal with an economy that probably wasn't moving as fast as Ronald Reagan wanted it to move in the early 80s because Volcker decided to keep interest rates higher than Reagan would have wanted.
That's what happens, right, because the monetary policy of this country needs to be segregated from its fiscal policy. And the president of the United States has all the authority in the world to navigate fiscal policy. But he needs to leave the Fed alone. If he doesn't just impact the markets here, he impacts the markets around the world.
And if I were China today, I would be thrilled, I would be ecstatic. Because if you wanted to tank the global economy and make the dollar not be the federal -- not be the reserve currency that all these countries use, you could not have done a better job. I mean, the bond vigilantes are probably going to be coming out of the woodwork and it's nobody's fault but Donald Trump's right now.
PHILLIP: Is it a coincidence, Letitia James, James Comey, Jerome Powell? I mean, how do -- I don't know. I mean, does the White House just think that it doesn't matter that they're being so transparently targeted in their politicization of the Justice Department, or do they think that it doesn't look like targeting?
NOAH ROTHMAN, SENIOR WRITER, NATIONAL REVIEW: I think that this might be the first time that it does register with the president knows in his orbit that this is a really bad look for them. Jerome Powell doesn't make that statement unless he has absolutely no concern that he's going to be indicted, much less successfully prosecuted, A.
B, it suggests that there's a lot of people in the federal bureaucracy who are insulated from the purity test, ideological purity tests, who are very frustrated with the prosecutions of the president's political opponents, James Comey, Letitia James, and in particular because they don't have any teeth to them. They've backfired on the DOJ. They've backfired on the Eastern District of Virginia. And those prosecutors are gone. One is now on the way out. And the president doesn't look especially good by pursuing these vendettas and then not securing the vindication that he sets out to secure for himself.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I've been kind of impressed by Powell, right, who looks so mousy and so geeky. And all of a sudden he's standing up for himself and saying, come at me. Really? I'm going to respond. I'm not going to be pushed around. He's hired a powerful attorney and he's seeming not to be afraid. He's taking on Trump.
I also think it's rather rich and very ironic, it almost makes me chuckle, that out of all the things that he's criticizing him on, it's cost overruns on renovations.
PHILLIP: I know, yes.
NAVARRO: I mean, this is a guy who tore the east wing of the White House without consulting anybody, without getting any approval from anybody, did it overnight, started a, you know, ballroom that started at a budget of $250 million, it's at $400 million, and he's getting the money by extorting donations from business moguls that need a quid pro quo from him. And he's going to be the moral compass overruns on renovations? It's funny.
PHILLIP: It is. It is a little bit rich. But to your point about Jerome Powell, and we just played back in July, this was one of the maybe top ten moments of 2025. Trump goes to the Federal Reserve and then they have this moment as they're talking to the media,
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It looks like it's about $3.1 billion. It went up a little bit or a lot. So, the 2.7 is now 3.1.
POWELL: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: Yes. I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.
You just added in that third building is what that is. That's the third building, including the --
TRUMP: Well, it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: While they're wearing hats.
PHILLIP: I mean, just there's a side of incompetence there. It also seems, based on some of the digging that people have done, one of the things that Russ Vought has talked about, he's the budget person at the White House. He has basically said that he's looking at that Fed chairman said that there were two elements of the renovation essentially that are not happening anymore.
[22:10:05]
And he's perhaps accusing him of lying to Congress about things that they are no longer doing to the renovation. Make it make sense?
CHRIS JONES (D), U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ARKANSAS: Well, you can't, first of all. And it's interesting because the Federal Reserve and the Department of Justice as well only work when they are removed from and independent from political pressure.
What I find extra fascinating is that you can look on Wall Street and New Yorkers and on Main Street in my home state of Arkansas, and they agree, they don't want their economic institutions to be swayed by a political whim.
PHILLIP: Well, it's -- if you care about your money, that should be scary.
JONES: Right?
PHILLIP: I mean, and Americans care about their money. And, you know, I actually just want to -- first of all, I think that I'm a little surprised there are not more conservatives in Congress saying something, but let me just play what Ben Shapiro said about this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, CONSERVATICE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Is there evidence that Powell was stealing money or embezzling? Well, what is the case here, in other words? And why is it that the Trump administration, the two people who he seems to be focused on very much at the Federal Reserve are people who have opposed his agenda?
This is bad policy. You should not be targeting people based on specious investigations, if it turns out that it's specious.
The president should not be intervening in Federal Reserve policy in this way. All it does is create uncertainty in an economy that is doing quite well by all available reports.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Yes, a lot of important points that he made there. But, you know, for conservatives who are MAGA Republicans and they do firmly believe in their heart of hearts that there was a weaponization of the Biden Justice Department, how on earth can any of this be justified when some of these all allegations are on the thinnest of reeds?
SHORT: I think there's two separate things there. One is I've seen most of the commentary today from Republicans, from the moderates to the conservatives, all criticizing this. I even saw Steve Daines today coming out saying that he wants the Fed to stay independent and not for the president to do this. So, I've seen it across the spectrum.
But, you know, I think your point's well taken, Abby, that I think one of the reasons Donald Trump was elected is because a lot of Americans are uncomfortable with the lawfare that they perceive the Biden administration was pursuing. And now it seems the Trump administration is doing the exact same thing against its political opponents. And I don't think that's what Americans like.
ROTHMAN: I will add, however, that it is incumbent on Republicans in Congress, and Congress, generally, to perform its oversight role. Punditry does not suffice oversight of this administration.
PHILLIP: Somebody saw statements that are basically like, well, you know, we would like the Fed to be independent, period. See, that seems to not address the issue here.
JONES: It's fascinating that, if I can, it is fascinating that the person I happened to be running against French Hill is the chair of the oversight of the Financial Services Committee. And what he said was more platitudes, hey, look, you know, this is wrong. I'm a good friend of Powell's. What he didn't say is what action they're going to take to actually stop it or prevent the spiraling tail.
PHILLIP: Thom Tillis has been one of the few who actually was putting some pause (ph).
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Yes, but I mean, he can do something, right? He can hold up a nomination and committee. And if other Republicans join him could hold it up on the Senate.
NAVARRO: Well, Thune pushed back on it, some. The one that didn't was Mike Johnson, who continues to be a rug you can step on, that Trump steps on a daily basis.
ROTHMAN: I mean, then it could -- there's a lot of intent. There could be conflict with partisan priorities here that Republicans have to be very wary of. But you could treat this like a neutral and dispassionate thing. You can say, look, we're going to adjudicate this claim dispassionately. Did Jerome Powell lie to us? Did he perjure before us? It's our responsibility to find that out. Or is the president just simulating it (ph)? Or are there rogue elements within his DOJ that are just going out and pursuing his priorities under the assumption that maybe he's going to like this, we'll freelance and we'll see that --
NAVARRO: I'm not sure how much of those elements are rogue. It kind of seems to me that every time we read in the news that Donald Trump is unhappy with Pam Bondi, somebody in his enemies list gets investigated or indicted or, you know, to some sort --
PHILLIP: But that is a headline. Just so you know, that is a headline that ran today that he's privately unhappy with Pam Bondi.
ROGINSKY: But he's unhappy with her because she hasn't moved fast enough to indict people. It's the opposite. It's not that he's unhappy with her because she's doing something that's rogue. He's unhappy with her because she's not doing enough to have -- to bring cases that he thinks his enemies need to be brought to justice for.
NAVARRO: Listen, at least this time, he didn't send her a public tweet telling her who to indict.
ROTHMAN: There's also the Epstein debacle,
ROGINSKY: Of course, because --
(CROSSTALKS)
JONES: At the end of the day, the question I'm going to is, is it going to make life more affordable for Americans? And this isn't helping.
PHILLIP: Well, no. I mean, it might do quite the opposite.
ROGINSKY: It's the opposite.
PHILLIP: It might the opposite.
JONES: Exactly. PHILLIP: All right. Next for us, days after the ICE shooting in Minneapolis, the Trump administration is sending a thousand more agents into the state, and now Minnesota is suing.
Plus, Iran has crossed Donald Trump's red line.
[22:15:02]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the state of Minnesota and the Twin Cities are suing the Trump administration over its widespread immigration crack down there. The lawsuit alleges that the surge of ICE and other federal officials is an invasion, and it's asking the court to block DHS enforcement actions and limit ICE tactics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREY: What we are seeing right now is not normal immigration enforcement.
[22:20:00]
We are not asking ICE not to do ICE things. We are asking this federal government to stop the unconstitutional conduct that is invading our streets each and every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Sources tell CNN that 1,000 additional ICE agents are deploying to Minneapolis on top of the 2,000 that are already there. Now, all of this as protesters in Minneapolis and across the country continue to speak out against ice and last week's deadly shooting.
Now that's something that the White House has a big problem with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: And I think it's very striking that all weekend long you had agitators and violent American citizens out in the streets of Minneapolis protesting, protesting what exactly? Apparently they are protesting the removal of heinous murderers and rapists and criminals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, obviously, they're not protesting the removal of heinous murderers and criminals, but I do think that there is something that is happening on the ground in Minneapolis that the White House is on the defense about. And it is -- when you look at these images and these videos, you're seeing entire neighborhoods coming outside as they witness ICE enforcement that they think is excessive happening in their communities.
And that, I think, is part of what is going on here, that now the administration is trying to figure out ways to say, well, Americans, you're being lied to, what you're seeing is not what you're seeing.
ROGINSKY: I mean, we all saw what we saw, right? We all saw that video. And as much as the administration wants to gaslight us into thinking that it's something that we didn't see, we all saw a woman murdered in cold blood by an ICE agent who the administration is saying was so traumatized with PTSD from having been dragged by a car months prior that he had no choice but to pull a gun on this woman and murder her. And my answer to that is, why in the world was he allowed to carry a gun and act as law enforcement officer if he had PTSD? I mean, it just underscores to people how these ICE agents are untrained, unequipped, have no idea how to deal with normal people on a daily basis.
And, look, this is a breaking point I think for a lot of people what happened in Minneapolis. I think this is a moment where people realized that this could be them, that they could be driving their kid to school, coming home, see something, stop, have somebody say to them, drive away, have somebody else say to them, get out of the car. They heard or misheard something, and all of a sudden you're dead within a span of about 60 seconds, if not less.
And when you see something like that, I think we all understand that this could happen to any one of us. This is a breaking point for a lot of people in America, even people who are not political before understand what a problem this is now.
ROTHMAN: There's a lot to criticize when it comes to the rhetoric coming out of this White House, but there's a lot to criticize out of the president's critics as well. It was not a murder. It's not malice aforethought. Nothing has been proven in court.
ROGINSKY: He called her an F-ing you know what after he --
ROTHMAN: we do not, in this country, adjudicate issues like this based on fragmentary evidence in the court of public opinion.
ROGINSKY: He adjudicated by executing her.
ROTHMAN: And it could not happen to anybody else.
ROGINSKY: Come on.
ROTHMAN: This is not something because can we spare for two seconds? Look, this was a tragedy. And I think most Americans look at this and say, this should not have happened, but it should not have happened for a variety of reasons.
So, we can spare a moment to think of the people, the American people, who voted in a president who said, I'm going to execute a mass deportation program and it's going to be messy, because there're going to be a lot of new personnel coming on board, there's going to be a lot of new tactics that we're going to deploy, and yet it's necessary because of the immigration that was led into this country under Joe Biden. And, two, there is a network of activists who put people in very dangerous situations. They train them to confront law enforcement in the course of their duties. And they put themselves in danger the process.
(CROSSTALKS) ROTHMAN: So you know I would not be in that situation.
NAVARRO: The first person who adjudicated that tragedy was Kristi Noem, right, who before the body was cold, was --
ROTHMAN: Who spoke irresponsibly. So, Tim Walz, who started invoking Gettysburg the day of.
NAVARRO: Yes, but she set the tone by being the first one out of the gate within minutes before she had any information, before she had any facts, calling her a domestic terrorist. And you know what I think we should all be calling for? I think we should be calling for an investigation that includes local law enforcement so that there is some credibility. So, that people who think that one side is biased or the other side is biased, I would like to see both sides cooperating on a credible investigation because I think that -- one, I think Nicole -- Renee Nicole Good's son deserves answers. I think this country deserves answers.
And I think Donald Trump did say he was going to do massive deportation, but he said over and over again, he campaigned over and over again on deporting heinous criminals, the worst of the worst. And the vast majority of the people that have been deported are not the worst of the worst. There's decent people who -- some of them were here under some color of law.
[22:25:00]
Some of them were here undocumented. Some of them have been sent to the worst hellhole in Central America where they have been tortured without violent criminal records. So, he lied about that. Karoline Leavitt is lying about that.
And I think you saw -- you are seeing protests not just in Minnesota, all over the country. This country is sick of the performative, extreme cruelty being done on a daily basis on the streets of America.
PHILLIP: I just want to show you guys something because this is video, this is just one glimpse of some of the interactions that have been going on in Minnesota. This is a video taken at a gas station where ICE was engaging in an enforcement action, and -- but they're engaging here with a protester. And you see there the ICE officer pushing him, then pursuing him, then a pile-on is happening.
Now, again, ICE does have to do their job, I understand that, but protesters have a right to record. They have a right to talk shit, if they want to. There's no obligation to have respect for law enforcement in this country because we are a free nation. So, in that situation where you then have ICE officers sometimes just losing their cool and using an a huge amount of force, that's just one snippet of some of the things that we've been seeing over the last few weeks and months.
JONES: So, when I look at it, it's personal, right? And the question I think we have to ask is, are the tactics making us safer or immeasurably worse? I typically go to church on Sunday, but my -- I'm a girl dad and my daughter plays volleyball on a Sunday, they had a volleyball tournament. And so I'm there, I'm screaming, I'm cheering. And in a moment she looked over at me and was glad to see me there and I thought about Renee Good's son. He'll never get a chance now to see his mother on the sidelines cheering for him or screaming for him. And when we forget the humanity of it all, I think we lose sight of where we want to become as a nation.
SHORT: Yes. Look, I think it's a tragedy what happened. I think it's well said, Chris. But I think it's also wrong to slander, frankly, all ICE agents and suggest in some way that they're evil. The reality is that I've met a lot of these ICE agents. They're some of the most heroic, dedicated Americans. Many of them are Latin America, in fact, doing a very difficult job, an incredibly difficult job, in part, because the previous administration let so many millions of immigrants come across our border. It's a tough job.
PHILLIP: Can I ask you a question? Do you genuinely think that this administration is setting them up for success? Because we've had past presidents deport millions of people in this country without seeing these types of scenes, without raising the threat level against ICE agents because they are being put in communities in ways that expose them and also that increase the conflict between ICE and regular Americans.
SHORT: I mean, it's funny because I agree with Ana's point. The reality is that Kristi Noem should have never, you know, made allegations in the aftermath of that. And there's no evidence to suggest that she was a domestic terrorist. At the same time, I think people jumped to quick conclusions about what the ICE agent did and said that, you know, that the vehicle wasn't being used as a weapon when further evidence suggested it was.
So, I think we need to let the investigation play out. Both sides need to calm down the tempers a little bit and let ICE do their job.
NAVARRO: Do you think the investigation should include Minnesota local enforcement?
SHORT: Probably. I think that's fair, right? It's a very --
PHILLIP: I was thinking of Minnesota. Let me just play this because I think this is super interesting. This is the Minneapolis Police chief talking about one of the reasons why they're suing, what is the impact that ICE on the ground has had on local law enforcement, their ability to respond to 911 calls. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: So, we've just gotten a pretty dramatic increase in 911 calls from people in the community related to a lot of the street enforcement that's happening. I mean, it's everything from people are being arrested and their cars are left in the roadway sometimes blocking the street, and in one case left when it wasn't even placed in park and was rolling down the road.
Even this morning, we've gotten calls for individuals who were pepper sprayed by ICE. There's just a variety of calls for service that we then have to manage and triage that were not happening before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He also added that, you know, they're down 30 percent of their officer force. They don't have the capacity to deal with this traumatic increase that's resulted from some of these interactions.
ROTHMAN: Yes, it's very disruptive. And it's -- I wish it was not a policy that this administration was pursuing in this particular form, although I think deportations are something Americans voted for and want.
That being said, your question was extremely important.
[22:30:00]
Is this president setting law enforcement out for success? And I think it's debatable as to whether that's true. I also think you could say the same for the protesters and the same for the Democratic establishmentarian and politicians that they're listening to, too.
When you see tweet accounts from Democratic Party that elied that video that we all saw, it says, "I'm not mad at you, dude," gunshots, eliding everything that happened in the interim to justify those gunshots, perhaps in the mind of a jury or at least an oversight board that's investigating this.
When you hear DNC Chair Ken Martin explicitly equate this American president, this government, with the Iranian regime, saying that they're slaughtering demonstrators there and we're slaughtering demonstrators here. How does that not radicalize the --
(CROSSTALK)
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST & SUBSTACK AUTHOR, "SALTY POLITICS": Noah, can I ask you a question? Do you think this woman deserved to die? I mean, whatever she was doing, do you think that this man --
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: Based on the video that I've seen?
ROGINSKY: Yes.
ROTHMAN: No. Do you think she should have been there in the first place?
ROGINSKY: She was driving home.
ROTHMAN: Do you think she should have been there in first place?
ROGINSKY: Where was she supposed to be?
ROTHMAN: You're not going to answer the question. I answered yours, Julie. ROGINSKY: Do I think she should be there? Sure. If she was driving home on that street, road, why not? By the way,
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: Wait a second. To Abby's point, if that woman wanted to sit there and have her wife shit talk this ICE agent, as an American, she has a First Amendment right to do that. It doesn't --
ROTHMAN: Had a right to do that. There are consequences associated to her actions.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGINSKY: She has the right to do that. Is the consequence to do that to be murdered?
ROTHMAN: It really shouldn't be. But if you put yourself in the forefront of an active law enforcement investigation and you're trying to escape from armed law enforcement officers who are attempting to detain you, then yes, there are consequences.
ROGINSKY: Wow, if that attitude had existed in 1930s Germany, would have a real problem there.
(CROSSTALK)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: On January 6th, when there were thousands of protesters -- insurrectionists, I would call them, some call them tourists, who went in to try to impede the democratic transfer of power, attacked police, some died as a result days later, and the President of the United States, the first thing he did when he became president again was pardon them in mass.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: You won't find anybody who's more tragically sincere about how horrible January 6th was than me. It was the sum of all Madisonian fears. That has nothing to do with this.
NAVARRO: Oh, yes it does. It's called hypocrisy.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: When one set of protesters who did go out to harm police officers are pardoned and another woman who's sitting there in her car is shot to death, that's CALLED HYPOCRISY.
ROTHMAN: I find it revealing that we can't talk about what actually happened here. It's Gettysburg, it's January 6th, it's Nazi Germany.
(CROSSTALK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I do think you would agree --
(CROSSTALK) ROTHMAN: It's everything and anything but what happened on the streets of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I do think you would agree though that there are actually a lot of ways of looking at the video, that we -- all the different video that we have seen.
ROTHMAN: Really?
PHILLIP: And that, I don't -- I mean you've characterized it one way that she tried to kill the officer, whatever it is.
ROTHMAN: I did not say that.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: People have characterized it that way. But I also think in the same way that the officer didn't wake up that morning and say, I'm going to kill a protester, she didn't in that moment, it's possible, and I think maybe even likely, that in that moment, never did she intend to hit the officer or anyone else with her vehicle. And if that's the case, that also matters, wouldn't you say?
ROTHMAN: It certainly matters. And none of us have the evidence here to make that determination.
PHILLIP: That's all I'm saying. I mean, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying that there are --
(CROSSTALK)
MARC SHORT, BOARD CHAIR, ADVANCING AMERICAN FREEDOM: But that's also not the same thing as saying she was driving home or she was merely sitting in her car.
PHILLIP: Well, look, even if she were not merely driving home, even if she were there in protest, if she was attempting to flee the situation and not intending to kill anyone, not intending to run anyone over with her vehicle, all I'm saying is that that should matter.
SHORT: Sure.
PHILLIP: That should matter.
SHORT: I don't think you have disagreement on that.
NAVARRO: What I saw was her trying to block the street. There were cars that were able to go around her car. You know, I didn't see her being violent. I didn't see her engaging in a way that was not civil.
SHORT: We don't have -- we don't know what preceded that. We also did see the law enforcement ask her to get out of her car and she refused.
ROGINSKY: Well, we also saw -- SHORT: Look, we can all acknowledge it's a tragedy.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: It's not as if she was merely just driving home either.
ROGINSKY: We all saw a police officer take his camera, film with his left hand, and shoot her with his right hand, right? This isn't somebody who was sitting there worried for his life. He wasn't worried for his life. He was filming.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: You know, the point that the mayor of Minneapolis made that I thought was very interesting and important. He talked about the percentage of undocumented aliens in Minnesota in comparison to places like Florida or like Texas. And so I think -- and how much higher it is in Texas and in Florida, where there are no ICE agents running through the streets and dragging people. And he's making the point about this being selectively political, right? And only sending it to the blue states. I think that's a very strong legal point as they go into the courts on equal treatment.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yes, we will see how that plays out in the courts. Next for us though, did Iran just cross Donald Trump's red line? Well, it appears that they did. So, will the President actually follow through on his threat of strikes?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:39:37]
PHILLIP: Tonight, as Iran's internet blackout enters its fifth day after two weeks of anti-government protests, Donald Trump says that he's considering military options, to which Iran promised retaliation. They vowed that the U.S. military bases, ships and personnel across the region would now be targeted if Washington decided to intervene. Now, according to U.S.-based human rights groups, more than 500 people have been killed in just over two weeks of demonstrations, though CNN cannot independently verify those numbers.
[22:40:01]
Senator Lindsey Graham, a close ally of Trump's, is encouraging the President to carry out a strike saying, quote, "Make Iran great again." Lindsey Graham has been having quite the year. He is thrilled by where we are here. However, it does seem that Iran has already crossed the line that Trump has set. He said, "If Iran shoots and violently kills a piece of protesters, which is their custom, the American government will come to their rescue. We are locked and loaded and ready to go." So, he drew a line. Iran crossed it. Now what? Is he going to carry it out?
NAVARRO: I don't know. All I can tell you is that for a long time I heard Republicans and Trump supporters say that we shouldn't take Trump literally. We shouldn't take him seriously. When Trump has made threats in the last year since he's been back as president, he's carried out those threats, right? Whether it's Nigeria or Syria or Yemen or Venezuela.
So, what I do think is that if the U.S. Congress wants to be taken seriously, wants to be taken into consideration, wants to put some teeth on the War Powers Act that Donald Trump wipes his nose with, amongst other body parts, then instead of waiting for him to act and then trying to pass a resolution, they should be doing so right now on Iran.
I also will tell you, it breaks my heart to see what's happening in Iran. And I do think that not just the United States, but the whole international community, Western democracies, everybody should be speaking up and everybody should be figuring out how we help those protesters.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, wouldn't it be a good thing --
NAVARRO: They're being executed.
PHILLIP: -- Chris, if he were to actually carry it out? Because, I mean, he has kind of boxed himself in, but he's carried out his threats before. So this would be a moment to do it.
CHRIS JONES (D) U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ARKANSAS: I mean, he's certainly carried out his threats. And I think Ana's exactly right on two key points. One, we should all be enormously concerned about what's happening there. And two, which I think is equally important, is that Congress has to do its job, you know, and part of that job --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Do you want Congress to stop him or do you want them to just have a debate about it?
JONES: Well, I want them to -- I personally want them to stop him. And part of that is because, you know, my wife has been to war. She was in Afghanistan serving in the U.S. Air Force. So I understand the consequences of war. And by stop, let me be clear. When we need to use force and go to war, we should do it.
But we should be very thoughtful about it. And there are servicemen and women across the country who will go serve and put their life on the line, but we have to be very thoughtful about all the consequences that come along with that.
ROTHMAN: I don't think this administration is envisioning a ground force of any kind. There's a colorable argument that the administration made in June with the nuclear strikes that the existing AUMFs, the authorizations for use of military force from the AUTS cover these actions against Iran. You can debate that one way the other. Nevertheless, that's what the administration thinks that's their legal case. And the President's prestige is on the line, his credibility is on the
line, sure, but most importantly is this is the weakest this regime has looked in a very long time. It's the biggest demonstration since 2009, 2022. This is the most evil regime on the planet Earth. It is a huge headache for the United States. It is the world's leading sponsor of state terrorism that kills Americans and it will continue to kill Americans until it collapses. This is the time to act.
PHILLIP: Although I would just -- just to note, mean, ground forces don't necessarily mean that it doesn't put U.S. service members in danger. You know, there were retaliatory strikes by Iran and their proxies against American soldiers that led to the deaths of Americans. I spoke to the families of some of those Americans.
So there are risks. There are real risks here, perhaps greater than what happened in Venezuela. It's a serious situation.
SHORT: Well, sure it is, but think -- media often tries to put Trump in a box as the isolationist. He's not an interventionist. And I think it's hard to do that. I think throughout, as you go back to his first administration, he took out Soleimani. He took out Abu al-Maghdadi. He, he, he did strikes in Syria and killed 100 Russian mercenaries. When Obama said if you cross the red line, we'll go after you and he didn't.
And so, I think it's hard to sort of paint Trump in a certain box. I'm glad he took out Maduro. I think we're safe in our hemisphere because of it. I'm glad he had strikes on Iran's nuclear force. I think we're safer for it. So I applaud him for those actions. Whether or he takes a step here, as Noah said, there's been no regime that has killed more Westerners than Iran of the last 40 years. And so, it is a threat not just to the United States. It's a threat to all Western civilizations in that area.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, although I wonder, do they have to decapitate the regime this time?
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: But you know, you talk about taking out Maduro. Maduro's sitting in a jail here, but the Maduro regime is very much still in power in Venezuela, and I think we've got to keep talking about that.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: There's over 800 political prisoners that are still being tortured and jailed, and are not released.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:45:00]
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there. Next for us, Donald Trump says that he regrets not seizing those voting machines after the 2020 election. So, is he foreshadowing what may be to come?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:49]
PHILLIP: Is President Trump foreshadowing what could happen if there is a blue wave in November? Well, in an interview with "The New York Times," Trump expressed regret not using the National Guard to seize voting machines after the 2020 election.
[22:50:05]
That is, I would say it's incredible, but he really actually wanted to steal the last election. And now, he's president again. So what are we in for?
ROGINSKY: I don't think we're going to have free and fair elections, my friend. I mean, I know people think that's kind of crazy talk, except for the fact that everything else he's done has been kind of crazy talk also. And so look, this is somebody who doesn't want vote by mail because it doesn't benefit him. So he wants to get rid of that.
PHILLIP: He thinks it doesn't benefit him but there's not --
ROGINSKY: But there's evidence, right. But he thinks it doesn't benefit him because traditionally Democrats have used it more than Republicans. He doesn't want voting machines. I don't know why other than I guess he wants that piece of paper for people to come out and say here's how I voted. You know, all of it --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Mark, let me ask Mark, because Mark, you were there, okay, on that fateful day. Do you -- I mean, really, Trump wanted to use the National Guard to seize voting machines. Why is that not more of a five-alarm fire for every person, I don't care conservative or liberal in this country?
SHORT: Well, look, Abby, you know, often still defend most of record of the first administration. All the President's actions after an election day are pretty atrocious, and I think are indefensible. And I think it's -- you asked that question but I mean, Americans witnessed and saw what happened on January 6th when protesters stormed the Capitol. And so, I don't know to what extent, you know, the season of voting machines and how that compares it. It's all bad. It's all bad, Abby. I think in the end the day, he often throws this stuff out to for -- to get chum going.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: I know, but Mar, it's stupid.
SHORT: I'm not stupid here.
NAVARRO: -- but his fixation with a Nobel Peace Prize or his fixation with rewriting history of the fact that he lost the 2020 election? I just want to remind people that one of the things that Maduro did was not accept the election laws in 2024 and just pretend he won and stay in power. In our country, our institutions held, our democracy held. But Donald Trump is just, to me, it's just so infantile and frankly, stupid. I can't come up with another word that he's trying to rewrite history.
PHILLIP: I think that January 6th would look like child's play compared to stealing election machines and trying to change the results of an election. January 6th, as bad as it is, is actually not the thing that would have invalidated an election.
ROTHMAN: it is important despite Republicans' renaissance to criticize this president on anything. It's important to see from their perspective that everything that happened between election day 2020 and 2022 was a disaster for them explicitly because of what Donald Trump did. They lost the seats. In Georgia, they lost the election. And then 2022 midterms came up kind of a bust in part because of the messaging around January 6th.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, he won the presidency and that's all -- I don't know. They won the presidency and that is all that matters in this political system, you know, partisan world that we're in. But I mean, democracy, do we care?
JONES: Look, it's about the guardrails. And where I'm from, people don't want political fights over elections. You don't -- we love sports, we love the Razorbacks. But if we think they'll win every game, but if they lose a game, we don't storm the scoreboard to try to change the score. And that's what we're seeing. And we have to put up guardrails to stop it. And if we don't, we're in deep trouble.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, the panel, they are going to give us their night caps, "Alien Encounter" edition. You don't want to miss us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:13]
PHILLIP: The creator of Tetris suggested launching a Rubik's Cube into space as a quote, "symbol of modern civilization". So, for tonight's NewsNightcap, what would you send into space to impress the aliens? Noah, you're up.
ROTHMAN: That might be too on the nose for me, but I'm going to eject the U.S. tax code into orbit. I think extraterrestrial life would find it impressively busy team and its complexity, and it would just be really gratifying to shoot it into space.
PHILLIP: That's complex life for sure. All right, Chris.
JONES: Yes, so I love this question because I'm an MIT trained rocket scientist and I helped build a rocket at NASA.
(CROSSTALK) JONES: I worked with an astronaut to build a rocket.
SHORT: You have a good answer.
JONES: Yes, well my answer is the IKEA instructions because I have five degrees and still can't figure it out.
PHILLIP: That makes me feel slightly better. Ana?
NAVARRO: Listen, I don't care the reason to send them. I don't care the motives. If I get the chance to send anything to space, I'm sending Donald Trump, and the Nobel Peace Prize is going to steal from Maria Corina Machado. Send them to space. One way, please.
PHILLIP: Well, I don't know what will happen when he encounters the aliens.
NAVARRO: I know what's going to happen when he encounters Maria Corina Machado this week.
PHILLIP: That'll be interesting.
ROGINSKY: I'm going to send a Big Mac because if aliens see what we eat every day and that we still survive and thrive, they're going to be so impressed. They're never going to invade us because if you can't, I mean, Big Macs can't take us out and we eat so many of them every day.
PHILLIP: Well, the Big Mac is also probably the one thing that if you sent it out into space, would survive.
ROGINSKY: It would survive, of course. Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Many, many hundreds of years.
ROGINSKY: You know what, my son eats Big Macs and then of course I eat half of them when he's not paying attention.
NAVARRO: Okay, send the Big Macs and Donald Trump. That's his preferred diet.
ROGINSJY: Great. And a filet-o-fish.
PHILLIP: Marc?
SHORT: I would say a teenager with a cell phone.
[23:00:00]
There are few things that would be less distracting. A teenager with a cell phone will not be distracted at all by any of alien environment. I think that would be amazing to them.
PHILLIP: Yes, they'll be able to see how quickly they can scroll through Instagram and TikTok and everything. All right, everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and on TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
