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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Threatens Insurrection Act as Gov. Tim Walz (D-MN) Begs to End This; Confrontations Between ICE, Public Intensify in Minneapolis; Noem Says, U.S. Citizens Should Be Prepared to Show Proof. Governor Tim Walz Urges Peaceful Protests; Machado Visits Trump. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 15, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, boiling point in Minneapolis. Donald Trump threatens the Insurrection Act as the governor begs him to remove ICE from the streets.
Plus, the rhetoric rises.
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: The insurrectionists have come out of hiding.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): I likened what Donald Trump was doing to what was happening in the early days of Nazi Germany.
PHILLIP: Also, the opposition leader hoping to lead Venezuela gives Trump an incentive to back her, a Nobel Peace Prize.
And as his presidency party and policies face low numbers, Trump once again floats canceling the midterm elections.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president was simply joking.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Charles Blow, Brianna Lyman, Christopher Hahn and Lev Parnas.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, the Insurrection Act. Tonight, in a significant escalation, President Trump is threatening to invoke the country's old law to deploy armed forces to Minnesota. He wrote today, if the corrupt politicians of Minnesota don't obey the law and stop the professional agitators and insurrectionists from attacking the patriots of ICE, I will institute the Insurrection Act. Now, tensions are extremely high in Minneapolis, as the city is reeling from its second ICE-involved shooting in just a week. Scenes like this have been playing out all day in that city, showing federal agents clashing with protesters firing pepper balls. And in the hours following Trump's warning, Minnesota's governor Tim Walz, appealed directly to him, writing, let's turn down the temperature. Stop this campaign of retribution. This is not who we are.
Now, we should note that this is not the first time that the Trump administration has threatened to use the Insurrection Act. It's something that the White House has been telegraphing for quite some time now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: You can use the term insurgency. You can use the term insurrection.
Engaging in these trained insurgent tactics.
This is a party that has embraced full scale insurrection.
There has to be street battle against armed insurrectionists.
They're saying they're going to carry out insurrection against the federal government.
It is an insurrection.
This is an all-out campaign with insurrection against the sovereignty of the United States.
He declared a no-go zone for ICE. How is that not insurrection?
It is domestic terrorism. It is insurrection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Stephen Miller has also posted about insurrection at least 30 times just in the last year since Trump took office for the second time. These posts get hundreds of thousands of views.
CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is going to join us in our fifth seat tonight, but I do want to start with this idea of the Insurrection Act and whether this is the moment that the Trump administration has been waiting for. Scott, you have been convinced that this is the time.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. They'd be well within their rights to do it. I mean, you've got a governor of Minnesota who has said out loud that he believes they exist in a state of occupation of the federal government. You've got people going off to trainings, training, how to fight federal agents. You've got massive amounts of money flowing into these groups to fund this stuff. And you have a bunch of elected officials in Minnesota who seem to believe that federal laws do not apply there, and you have massive unrest and massive disorder in the streets.
And just last night, an ICE agent was trying to arrest a Venezuelan national and two other Venezuelan nationals, all illegal immigrants, came out and tried to beat him to death with a shovel, which has apparently enraged everyone in Minnesota. They have a lot of problems there, and if Trump decided to do it, I think he'd be well within his rights to do so.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Scott's right that Donald Trump does have very broad discretion to invoke the Insurrection Act, if he does that. He'll certainly be challenged in court, and I think he'll probably prevail because of how broad the law is.
[22:05:00]
But let's also step back and get a little historical perspective here. If Donald Trump invokes the Insurrection Act over this, it will be the weakest invocation of the Insurrection Act in U.S. history. And let's just go through the recent history. The last time it was invoked, '92 L.A. riots, 63 people dead, billion dollars worth of damage. Anyone who was all -- most of us, maybe not you, but we're alive and remember that. And this is nothing compared to the L.A. riots.
Before that was the late 50s, early 60s desegregation, when certain towns and states in the south were defying Brown versus Board of Education, the Supreme Court, for years and Eisenhower, JFK, and LBJ, all invoked the Insurrection Act to make sure that black students could get into public schools. This does not even begin to compare to that.
So, can he do it legally? I think he probably can. Is it a sound use of the Insurrection Act? I think it's historically completely out of step with the way we've seen it used by prior presidents.
CHRIS HAHN, FORMER AIDE, SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: The problem with Trump is that he doubles down on mistakes. So, do I think he might invoke the instruction act? Absolutely, because he's losing here politically. And he's feeling embarrassed and he's got to find a way out. And I don't know that there is a way out unless the grownups, the Democrats that run Minnesota and Minneapolis, come to him and say, okay, here's a deal, Mr. President, we'll make it look like you have a win, just like, you know, our friend from Venezuela had to give her peace prize to him today. He needs something to show that he won, and I'm hoping that they could come to some sort of deal.
CHARLES BLOW, THE LANGSTON HUGHES FELLOW, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: And also as part of his kind of makeup, he believes that the only way to deal with dissent is to crush it, right? That is not only horrible politics. It is un-American and it is likely to fail. This is -- you know, and they've been building up to this idea that they will create the crisis and then they will solve the crisis by cracking down even harder than the forces that they use to create the crisis.
They're asking ICE to do outrageous things. They are recruiting them using Nazi, white supremacist propaganda hinting to that. And then people see that, people who don't recognize it as Nazi or white supremacist, maybe they just join anyway. But the ones who do recognize it see that as a hint, the same kind of hint as the, as you know, stand back and stand by.
And then you put those people in the field, not -- this is not people coming to Washington to protest. These are people being placed in my neighborhood doing horrible things to my neighbors. And when people respond to that, they say, now the problem we created, we will solve with more force. This is a horrible political play.
BRIANNA LYMAN, REPORTER, THE FEDERALIST: First of all, how dare you sit here and accuse ICE agents of being Nazi, Gestapo and white supremacist when they are --
BLOW: Is that what I said?
LYMAN: You just insinuated that they're apparently recruiting others. You said they're recruiting others and then it's a dog whistle for others to then apply to that.
BLOW: Absolutely.
LYMAN: Second of all, the --
PHILLIP: Well, he's -- let me tell you what he's referring to.
BLOW: But do you not believe that you didn't see that?
PHILLIP: He's referring to posts that have been put out on social media by DHS.
LYMAN: I've seen all the posts.
PHILLIP: And on the Department of Labor and on other accounts that have been traced back to white supremacist chat rooms, iconography. So --
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: Did you not see the one with George Washington?
PHILLIP: There's plenty of stuff --
BLOW: Did you see the one with George Washington?
LYMAN: Which specific one?
BLOW: The one where they were using Nazi -- hinting at Nazi phrasing over a picture of George Washington. Did you see it? Did you see it? You didn't see it.
LYMAN: Well, what was the Nazi phrase then?
BLOW: You said you see it, but you didn't see it.
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: Everybody stop talking just a second. I don't want to go down this cul-de-sac. All I was saying, just in response to your question, is that he wasn't saying ICE agents are Nazis or whatever it is. He was saying that some of the iconography that has been used, and some of the phrases that have been used by DHS on social media people have linked back to very specific places where white supremacist ideology is utilized.
You can disagree with that, but that is what he's talking about.
LYMAN: Okay.
PHILLIP: That's all I wanted to say.
LYMAN: Now to the crisis on hand. Democrats created --
BLOW: Crisis of our own making?
PHILLIP: Just can you let --
LYMAN: Really? Because I think it was Joe Biden who opened the border for four years and led in not only illegal aliens but otherwise inadmissible aliens. And what did you think was going to happen when you led in millions of illegal aliens? It means that ICE must then carry out mass deportations, because guess what, there are laws in the books.
Now, the question then becomes, do you care about enforcing laws on the books or do you think it's okay to just ignore certain laws?
HONIG: Of course. Of course we are.
HAHN: To that point, enforce laws on the books.
LYMAN: Right. So, that's what I said.
[22:10:00]
HAHN: Obama enforced the immigration laws. He deported millions of people. He wasn't shooting people in the street. He wasn't breaking car windows. His poll numbers didn't collapse over it because he was being overly aggressive and un-American. Where are all the Tea Party people who had, you know, the don't tread on me signs? Where are they today? We've got tanks in the streets in America. Not tanks, but troops in the streets in America. This is America and this is an un- American.
HONIG: Okay. What this law will do, just so everyone understands, if invoked, it will allow the president to deploy the military. We're beyond National Guard here, so Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, into the streets to serve a policing function.
Now, historically, we've tried to separate those two for good reason. Posse comitatus is the Latin phrase. But it just means troops don't do policing. And so the question really is, is it -- will it help? Is it necessary to send in the military? Will that help ICE do its job better?
Look I grew up with -- well, not grew up, but, you know, in my job professionally, knowing dozens of ICE agents and they've all been very good, very solid people who want to do the right thing. I made major cases with ICE. I mean, ICE doesn't just do deportation. They make criminal cases as well. So, in my experience with ICE, they're not Nazis, they're not racist. But do we need to bring in uniformed Army, Navy, Marines to get on the streets with them? Would -- I promise you ICE would tell you --
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: I want to make sure we get this phrase in, because the phrase is one homeland, one people, one heritage. Remember who we are as American over a picture of George Washington. And that is a hint at what a lot of people are suggesting is a hint at a Nazi German party thing that said, one people, one realm, one leader. Do you remember what the largest Nazi rally ever held in America where it was held?
LYMAN: Have you ever seen a dollar bill? It says, one nation under God? Have you ever read --
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: So, it was right here in Madison Square Garden in 1934. And you know what picture was on that stage? George Washington. And you know what the person said when they got on the stage to introduce that Nazi rally? Was that if George Washington was alive today, he and Adolf Hitler would be friends.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me just make one more note. We were talking --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Scott, you talk a lot about these 80-20 issues. So, Trump seems to be on the way to turning immigration into at least a 70-30 issue not in his favor. The latest A.P. poll says just 38 percent of Americans approve of immigration. That's way down from where he started. This is politically not working in Trump's favor. At what point are they going to realize that maybe things have gone too far?
JENNINGS: Some of those people may disapprove because they want there to be more deportations even faster. You know, we've deported 2.6 --
PHILLIP: I don't think -- well, based on --
JENNINGS: You don't think so? I do.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Scott. Based on the polling, we have a lot of polling, especially this week, there's been a CNN poll, there's a Quinnipiac poll, it's pretty clear they disapprove of his handling of deportations, they disapprove of what happened in Minnesota with Renee Good and they disapprove of Trump's handling of immigration. If they thought that he was doing a great job, they would applaud what has been happening so far, and they aren't.
JENNINGS: I mean, look, we can debate the polling. I can only refer you to the November 2024 election, in which Donald Trump flatly told the American people he was going to deport illegal aliens. He was going to mass deport illegal aliens. And that's exactly what they've done. They've deported --
BLOW: He said he was going to deport the worst of the worst.
JENNINGS: Yes, and they are.
BLOW: No, they're not.
JENNINGS: And so --
BLOW: 75 or 73 percent of them have no record, whatsoever.
JENNINGS: False.
BLOW: That is not false. And only 3 percent have a violent crime record.
JENNINGS: Let me finish. I get asked questions and you just talk and you talk --
BLOW: Oh, so you've never talked over to anybody? Thank you, sir.
PHILLIP: Hold on, Charles. Finish your thought, Scott.
JENNINGS: Here's the deal. He ran on it and he's doing it. And he's going to be the president for the next three years, and they're going to continue to do it. They've deported 2.6 million people. About 2 million have actually self-deported. Only 600 and something thousand have actually been deported through ICE or Border Patrol or other law enforcement operations. So, the vast majority of people who are leaving the country are doing so through self-deportation.
To me, the greatest question here is, why does it and why is it that Democrats in the state of Minnesota believe that they should be immune from or not applicable to federal immigration law that has been on the books for years? We haven't passed any new laws.
HAHN: And, again --
JENNINGS: We haven't passed enough laws.
BLOW: That's not the question.
HAHN: It's a misleading statement about how Democrats believe --
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: People are responding to the cruelty.
(CROSSTALKS) PHILLIP: When we come back, we'll talk about what Democrats and people in Minneapolis are mad about, because there's some very specific examples that I want us to dig into. So, let's push pause on this conversation. We'll continue after the break.
Plus, also breaking tonight, the Venezuelan opposition leader who wants Trump's backing to lead the country has given him a gift that he has always wanted, her Nobel Peace Prize.
[22:15:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have an I.D. on you, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need an I.D. to walk around in my city. This is my city. This is my --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Do you have some I.D. then please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't need an I.D.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not, we're going to put you in the vehicle. We're going to I.D. you, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am U.S. citizen. I don't need to carry around an I.D. in my home. This is my home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were you born?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Minneapolis is my home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Let's continue this debate where we left off. Lev Parnas joins us at the table.
That video that we just played there is just one of the many examples of one of the things that has, I think, riled up the Minnesotan community so much. A woman apparently walking in her neighborhood stopped and pressed to prove her citizenship, or not even to prove her citizenship, to prove whether she was born in the United States, which doesn't necessarily indicate if you were a citizen. That's just one example of what has been going on in Minneapolis.
LEV PARNAS, AUTHOR, LEV REMEMBERS ON SUBSTACK: I mean, yes, I mean, to me it's like PTSD. I mean, remembering growing up in the Soviet Union back in '89, '90, going back there and then watching, basically you couldn't walk the streets without being pulled over by the police asking you for your documentation. And now we're seeing the same thing play out here. I mean, he's getting his great rules and learning from the best, Putin, you know, and he's following in his footsteps.
I know Scott doesn't like it, but he's auditioning for Karoline Leavitt's job, you know, when she leaves. He's going to be the next press secretary.
LYMAN: Well, let me just first say, and I know you had a very different experience growing up, but it's extremely insulting to compare the United States to the Soviet Union. The 1940 Alien Registration Act, aliens, 14 years and older, who have been in the country for 30 days, must carry proof of I.D. the INA section 2648 U.S. Code 1304 Subsection E says, non-citizens 18-plus must carry identification. She's a U.S. citizen. So --
LYMAN: My point --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on. What's the -- she's a citizen. So, what's --
LYMAN: My point is that all aliens are required to carry identification the same way if I am pulled over, they're going to say, do you have I.D.?
PHILLIP: Well, let me give you another example. There was a lawsuit filed today by the ACLU, a U.S. citizen, Mr. Ali Dahir, was detained after he shared an elevator in his building, a building that primarily housed Somali and Latino resident, with ICE agents. When Mr. Dahir exited the elevator and walked outside, the agents followed him, called him over, stopped him, saying they needed to speak with him. They took a picture of his face with their phone and asked him for his identification. He provided a passport card and was told, that doesn't count. We're going to have to detain you.
So, again, there is no -- American citizens don't need to carry their papers in this country, and there are a lot of examples of that. There are thousands of federal agents on the street. And if they were just focused on criminals, again, I don't think we would be seeing this. I think one of the reasons we're seeing this is because of -- just those are just two examples. I have more, but I'll let you respond.
JENNINGS: So, I asked the Department of Homeland Security about that video that we have been playing on CNN. First of all, I don't know what happened to that lady, and I don't know what her status is.
PHILLIP: She -- well, they walked away and she was free to go.
JENNINGS: Oh, really? So, she wasn't detained.
PHILLIP: Yes. Well -- but as you watched in the video --
BLOW: But should she be harassed by --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: As you saw in the video, there were a lot of -- there was a lot of back and forth, but there were also many people around witnessing this exchange as well. So, that's what happened.
JENNINGS: So, here's what DHS told me. We're doing targeted enforcement. They would have to have reasonable suspicion, Fourth Amendment, if it's a casual intent.
HAHN: What was the reasonable suspicion?
PHILLIP: All right. So --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. I'm aware that obviously DHS is not going to admit to a constitutional violation, but they're being sued in court over not just by incidents --
JENNINGS: By who? ACLU?
PHILLIP: They're being sued by American citizens over what they're calling illegal stops. So, Scott, so let me ask --
JENNINGS: Well, we'll see if the ACLU has a better lawyer over this than they were with transgender sports this week.
PHILLIP: There are undocumented cases of American citizens being harassed by ICE of non-citizens being stopped randomly simply based on maybe they have an accent, maybe they happen to be in a particular place, like near an airport working for Uber. And at the very least, it raises questions about whether people's constitutional rights are being violated. And if that is the case, isn't it justified for Americans to be concerned about that?
JENNINGS: So, according to the reporting, there have been 170 American citizens who have been detained for some period of time, during this period, in which they have deported about 660,000 illegal aliens. That's about a 99.9997 percent success rate. If any other government agency got stuff that right that often, we'd be throwing them a ticker tape parade.
BLOW: He sounded very Herman Cain right now. That's not the point. The principle is not -- first of all, it's not even just the people who are detained. It's the people who are stopped and questioned. That is also a violation of your rights because you should not have the authorities arrest -- stopping individual people just because you're in the proximity of where they're doing their work.
JENNINGS: They have reasonable suspicion.
BLOW: That's what they said to you. That's what they said to you. That doesn't make it true.
(CROSSTALKS)
[22:25:00]
BLOW: And then you said earlier you can't look to the Russian example, we don't have to look to the Russian example. We have a history in this country of people having to stop and show papers, and it was outrageous even then. And you know what? We could go from enslavement -- or we go from enslavement forward.
LYMAN: We don't like it, then (INAUDIBLE) get rid the 1940 law on the INA.
BLOW: We go for an enslavement as it goes before that. Enslavement is before that.
HAHN: The example that you gave about getting pulled over, well that's reasonable suspicion. They can ask you your I.D. You're walking down the street or you're protesting, exercising your First Amendment right. Republicans love the Second Amendment, but what about the First, okay, the First Amendment right to protest? This president thinks every protester is an insurrectionist. And I think that the American people see through it now, and they are coming for him in November, Scott, in a big way.
JENNINGS: Do you know anything about that lady's case? Do you know anything about the suspicion they may have had? And we already found out they didn't detain her at all. She had a brief encounter.
HAHN: Well, they must have had none if she wasn't detained.
JENNINGS: So, you're very worked up about a situation in which a woman answered questions for ten seconds?
PHILLIP: But, Scott, that is actually exactly the point, is that if ICE agents had a legitimate reason to stop and detain her, they would've done it. Whether she proclaimed her innocent --
JENNINGS: They didn't detain her. They asked her a question.
PHILLIP: Right, exactly.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: That is exactly my point. They let her go because they did not have a reason to stop her.
LYMAN: No. They realized that's what --
(CROSSTALKS)
LYMAN: When you have reasonable suspicion, then you do a few questions, then you realize, okay, you know what, then this is actually not what I thought of.
BLOW: You know what that sounds like? Stop and frisk with the president, say he was going to bring to a natural scale. That is exactly what this is. This is stop and frisk.
HAHN: You got uniformed guys with masks on saying, papers please, in America.
LYMAN: Right, because of the laws. HAHN: Get ready for every commercial.
LYMAN: You also know that Antifa wears masks, right, when they burn down --
(CROSSTALKS)
HAHN: So, should the government be like Antifa? Is that what you're saying?
(CROSSTALKS)
BLOW: How many people are in Antifa? What is Antifa? Who's their leader? Who's the leader of Antifa? Where's the organization? Where's it founded? Where's it, where's the headquartered? What is Antifa?
LYMAN: That's actually a great question.
BLOW: You have no idea what you're talking about. As you told me before, maybe you should stop that before it hurts your mouth.
LYMAN: And people literally targeted the ICE agents.
BLOW: That's what she said to me. She said to me literally.
LYMAN: When they targeted the ICE facility in July, that's Antifa, they were charged.
PHILLIP: Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D) MINNESOTA: We must protest loudly, urgently but also peacefully. We must remain peaceful. You have an absolute right to peacefully film ICE agents as they conduct these activities. They want to see us turn on one another, turn towards violence rather than peaceful reconciliation. So, we'll protest peacefully. Peacefully express your First Amendment and your constitutional rights. If you protest and express your First Amendment rights, please do so peacefully. This is the peaceful resistance that we need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: So, that's a little taste of Tim Walz, who has been under fire by Republicans. The accusation has been by conservatives, including by you, Scott, that he's been inciting violence, but we just played it there.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Okay, you cherry- picked a handful of comments. Did you play the comment where he said, we're under a federal occupation? UNKNOWN: Is that inciting violence?
JENNINGS: Of course it is. What does that language sound like to you? You have Walz and Fry and Flanagan and the rest of these Democrats in Minnesota radicalizing and propagandizing their constituency, telling them things that aren't true. And what has happened? One lady went out and got into a very, very sad and unfortunate situation.
Three Venezuelan illegals came out and tried to beat an ICE agent to death with a shovel. Hordes of people on the street vandalized and rated ICE vehicles and stole weapons, kevlar and documents and -- but docks people on the internet last night. Do you believe they are listening to Tim Walz when he talks about peace? Or do you think they're listening to Tim Walz who says we're being occupied by the federal government?
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS HAHN, FORMER AIDE, SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: I mean, look. The Governor is calling for peace. The Mayor is calling for peace.
UNKNOWN: After he declared we were in a civil war.
HAHN: WE have ICE agents on the streets saying didn't you see what happened to that other woman, right? So, I think we need a global cooling off period. I think that the President needs to acknowledge that this is not going well both functionally --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Can get the Venezuelans to cool off with the shovels or you think you'll be successful with it? Just out of curiosity.
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: I don't think anybody's using violence against anybody.
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: I don't think people should be pulled out of their car --
JENNINGS: Okay. So we deport them?
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: If they're illegal, they are breaking the laws in this country, of course.
JENNINGS: Because Walz and Fry say no, I should leave and we should not deport them.
HAHN: No, no. Okay. So --
JENNINGS: Now you're in opposition to Walls and Fry. You admit it.
HAHN: -- no. That is not what they're saying. What they are saying is --
JENNINGS: It is.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: They said no federal law.
HAHN: They're using this in Minneapolis.
JENNINGS: -- that the tactics that are being used in Minneapolis are not working. They're not getting the support of the community, they are not working politically, they are not working functionally. It is creating chaos. And let me tell you something about chaos. The American people hate chaos. You know this. They like order.
JENNINGS: They hate when Venezuelans beat the police --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: -- with a shovel. They hate that, too.
HAHN: And what they're seeing -- and by the way, they usually --
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: -- Republicans because they think they're going to bring order.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: There's no Republicans in Minnesota. It's Democrats in charge of Minnesota.
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: I'm telling you right now. The voters are coming and it's going to be beautiful.
[22:35:01]
PHILLIP: Well, yes, I mean, look. At the end of the day -- at the end of the day, again, we need to -- we were talking about this earlier. If this was a political home run for Trump and Republicans, we would be seeing that reflected --
UNKNOWN: Right.
PHILLIP: -- and it's not. Americans are pretty much universally in favor of deporting criminals who are here illegally. They are not in favor of what they're seeing on the streets of American cities. So, the politics of this is not lining up with what you're saying.
JENNINGS: Wait. If you say the Americans are universally in support of deporting criminal aliens, why don't the Democrats who run Minnesota cooperate with DHS to deport criminal aliens? Why do they refuse cooperation? If what you say is true and it's a universal value of Americans, why don't they do it? (CROSSTALK)
CHARLES BLOW, THE LANGSTON HUGHES FELLOW, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: One of the reasons that they have articulated is that they're trying to make sure that the entire community remains safe. And what ends up happening when they get less cooperation from the community when it looks like they are cooperating with ICE which is turning itself into a paramilitary terrorist organization --
JENNINGS: No cooperation.
BLOW: -- because of the way that ICE is acting.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: There wouldn't be ICE if they cooperated.
BLOW: That is not true because he's sending ICE to multiple cities --
JENNINGS: And there's no chaos anywhere else except in this place that's run by radical morons.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: And here's the other thing that I --
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Here's the other thing that I want --
JENNINGS: Come on.
BLOW: One more thing that I want to say. I, as much as anybody would love that there was no violence, and we could solve this and that the President was more listening and not trying to crush every -- crush this opposition but listening to it trying to figure out how to decelerate the situation. But -- deescalate the situation. But our history tells us that the only dissent is not always peaceful and we don't -- and what I think the President --
BRIANNA LYMAN, "THE FEDERALIST" REPORTER: Are you justifying violence?
BLOW: No. And there she goes again.
LYMAN: There I go again.
BLOW: - trying to say all the wrong things that make it not make it no sense.
LYMAN: Me, not making any sense?
BLOW: I'm not justifying violence. I'm saying naturally, like I just said before, literally, I, as much as anyone wants no violence but because -- I've actually read history books, violence occurs in America where people feel oppressed.
LYMAN: So does that make it good or okay?
BLOW: And I am saying, I don't want that to happen here. And the person who can help to make sure that doesn't happen is the President by de-escalating rather than escalating. That is the problem.
LYMAN: Hold on, hold on. Scott, to your earlier point, when Governor Walz came out after Renee Good was shot, he said that this is like the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg and that we are in a war with the federal government. So, to me, that --
JENNINGS: Very peaceful.
LYMAN: Right. That's actually not de-escalating the situation or calling for calm. That actually is kind of fanning the flames of violence. We've also had Jacob Fry.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Tim Walz -- I forgot.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Trump's personal Gestapo.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Because she tried to run an ICE agent over.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
LEV PARNAS, AUTHOR, "LEV REMEMBERS" ON SUBSTACK: The guy was videotaping with a gun, with the phone. He shot her three times in the head.
LYMAN: Because she accelerated at him.
PARNAS: He didn't even drop the phone. The phone --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, all right. Hold on. Hold on a second. You know, I wonder if there is a middle ground because I actually think it is a legitimate conversation to have about ICE, of an immigration detainer for people who are currently incarcerated can they go get those folks? That's a legitimate conversation to have.
At the same time, that's not really what we're seeing happening in Minneapolis because it doesn't take 3000 agents to get people out of jail.
LYMAN: Well, when they're being attacked. Yes, it does.
PHILLIP: And so --
JENNINGS: Abby, you're right.
PHILLIP: Can we be somewhere in the middle? Is it possible --
JENNNINGS: You're right.
PHILLIP: -- for there to be not a surge of ICE agents on the street?
JENNINGS: Yes.
JENNINGS: You've almost got it. You've almost got it.
PHILLIP: -- six hundred people -- while also having a conversation about that other --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: In all the places in America where there is cooperation in the way you just described where they have detainers and the local officials are cooperating, give minimal ICE presence because they're just administratively transferring them. In Minneapolis, there is no cooperation on respecting of the detainer. So, the middle ground here would be, yes, if we arrest someone and have a detainer, we --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But, I don't know. Here's the thing, Scott. That kind of glosses over the other facts here which is that, that is not all that federal agents are doing in Minneapolis. They are going door-to-door in Hispanic and Somali communities, knocking on doors and trying to just detain people We know that because of eyewitnesses who have been there. We know that because actually --
[22:40:00]
PHILLLIP: Let's go ahead and play this because this video was from earlier this week. This is of a house that was being raided by ICE agents. I just want to show you it. I think we can either play it or show you it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(ICE RAIDING A HOUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, they were going in there to get a man named Garrison Gibson. There were children in that house. They were armed. They burst into the house. They -- Mr. Gibson's lawyers filed with the judge to say that they did not have a warrant.
JENNINGS: Is he an illegal alien?
PHILLIP: Hold on. He had just been in an ICE office checking in as he has been required to do. JENNINGS: So, yes.
PHILLIP: So, well, hold on, hold on Scott. He had an arrangement with ICE that allowed him to be in the country as long as he checked in. He had just checked in with them. They could have picked him up last week when he was in the office. They didn't do that. What they did was they broke down the door without a warrant, and they detained him. And there are reports that a federal judge has ordered him released.
So, if it was only that they were trying to get people who had been in prisons and whatever, that would be one thing. But a lot of that is also happening, too, Scott.
JENNINGS: Listen.
PHILLIP: And again, that is the issue that Minneapolis residents have with what ICE is doing. That's the issue.
JENNINGS: And here's the response. The only reason this is happening, the only reason there are 3000 ICE agents or whatever there are there is because they can't get an arrangement with the locals to pick them up.
PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: This would not be happening if they were doing it like everybody else.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on, Scott.
PHILLIP: Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. That man was not in a --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That, okay, it doesn't make it true just because you say it. There are many people who are being detained who did not, who were not in prisons, who were not people who had final orders of removal, who were not people who were --
JENNINGS: But they're illegal aliens.
PHILLIP: Okay, so, Scott, you got to pick your argument. It's either that this is all happening because they're not handing over all the criminals or they're surging into Minneapolis and creating upheaval in a community, and in some cases, in this case, there's an argument to be made that they didn't even have a warrant to break down the door.
JENNINGS: They know an illegal alien lives there, though. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, and?
JENNINGS: Scott --
JENNINGS: Abby, you and I just have fundamental disagreement.
PHILLIP: No, no, listen.
JENNINGS: I think illegal immigration law should be enforced and you don't.
PHILLIP: We don't have a fundamental disagreement on that. We actually have a fundamental disagreement about whether or not laws should be and constitutional rights should be followed by everybody --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- by immigrants and also by the law enforcement.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, so, okay. Let's just end with a quick question.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Scott, just a quick -- hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It's not a citizen. This is an illegal alien.
PHILLIP: Okay, just a quick question.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Just a quick question. Do you think that they ought to have a warrant before breaking down a door?
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: What?
PHILLLIP: Hold on a second, Lev. Just a second. Do you think that ought to have a warrant before breaking down a door to arrest someone?
JENNINGS: I don't know what that last situation is. I know he's an illegal alien and that's all I know about that case.
PHILLIP: Okay, so you don't know.
JENNINGS: Do think they need a warrant to arrest an illegal alien?
PHILLIP: Let me just let you know, Scott, they do need a warrant
JENINGS: Arresting an illegal alien?
PHILLIP: -- in order to break down a door and enter someone's home, okay? So, hold on a second. Hold on a second. That same man was in an ICE office. JENNINGS: I know and I know you want to find way for to live here happily ever after but he's an illegal alien.
PHILLIP: Why didn't they just arrest him in the ICE office?
HAHN: This is performance.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, all right. Okay.
HAHN: This is performance and there are other places in the country where there are large populations of people who are here and are undocumented. He's doing it in blue cities, in blue states.
JENNINGS: Because they won't cooperate.
HAHN: No.
JENNINGS: They won't cooperate.
HAHN: No. And there's a deal to had here.
JENNINGS: They're not cooperating. And there is a deal to be had --
JENNINGS: How come they aren't offering it?
HAHN: Oh, please.
PHILLIP: I guess ICE is not cooperating with itself because they could easily have handed this man over to ICE when he was in their office last week.
JENNINGS: You all spend so much energy protecting illegal populations as Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right, next for us. Venezuela's Maria Corina Machado says that she presented her Nobel Peace Prize to President Trump today. So, what could that possibly mean for the future of Venezuela? We're going to discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:38]
PHILLIP: Tonight, he didn't win it, but now he has it. Today, the opposition leader of Venezuela came to give Donald Trump a peace offering and an incentive to back her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: I presented the President of the United States the medal of the Nobel Peace Prize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:50:03]
PHILLIP: So, Lev, in the first Trump administration, you were infamously involved in back channels with Maduro. What do you make of this?
PARNAS: I mean it's embarrassing. I mean, it's just, I mean nothing changed. The source started out in 2018, 2019. Same players involved, same people are doing it. My ex-partner Harry Sargent, Rick Grinnell, the same names that, you know, are involved right now. You saw the reporting of Reuters. And he's not going to support Machado just like he didn't support Guaido. I mean we discussed -- see back in 2019 Maduro wanted to leave.
Maduro wanted a soft landing. He willing to give up everything and that's what we were trying to negotiate with Trump. Trump was willing to discuss it even to the point where we delivered a letter to Trump from Maduro that nobody even knows about.
But Bolton found out and when Rudy came into the Oval to discuss our conversation with Maduro, Bolton flipped and that's when the whole Guaido invasion. It was Bolton and Pompeo that basically went behind Trump's back. Trump never supported Guaido, never was going to deal with it. He was trying to work out through me, Harry Sargent and others.
PHILLIP: So you think he's going to just leave the now Maduro -- former Maduro deputies in charge.
PARNAS: Well, I'll tell you this much. So I'll give you a conversation we had. So just so you understand. When we had a conversation and now you're seeing also signs of that there's going to be people that are coming in. They're not military, but mercenaries that are coming in. So back in the day in 2019, there was a conversation. We had pizza, Congressman Pete Sessions was there, John Solomon, the whole BLT crew, Rudy.
And we were talking about what if Trump doesn't support Guaido, what if you know, what are the chances to get Maduro to go if he doesn't go with this? And there was a conversation that was bluntly said by Harry, said, listen, if we have two, Erik Prince will take him out and basically, Delcy, what people don't know is a much friendlier player to the Trump --
PHILLIP: She's the now president of Venezuela.
PARNAS: Well, yes. She was friendlier than Maduro even back then.
PHILLIP: So the Nobel Peace Prize committee said today that once a Nobel Prize is announced, it cannot be revoked, shared, or transferred to others. The decision is final and stands for all time. A medal can change owners, however, but the title of Nobel Peace Prize Laureate cannot. So he's got the medal, but he's still not a laureate. And I'm not sure if that's enough for him, but it's good enough for now, it seems. BLOW: You know, and I don't even blame her for doing it. I think
they're in a desperate situation in Venezuela. Whatever she feels like she needs to do to calm him down and make a better situation for the post-Madura era of Venezuela, it is what it is. It feels like it's going to make him happier, make a smoother situation for the people of Venezuela so that they will eventually, finally get more of a democracy, a working government that works for the people and not just for the rich people. If that helps --
UNKNOWN: Yes.
BLOW: what happened --
(CROSSTALK)
HAHN: I know a guy on Canal Street that will make her an identical metal right now.
(CROSSTALK)
PARNAS: But guys, here's the problem. That doesn't help because he's not going to support her. He's dealing the Maduro -- when we say the Maduro regime changed, it didn't change. It got worse. Maduro was a figure. Delcy is the one that has the relationships with Putin. Delcy is the one that has relationship with Harry Sergeant. Delcy has the one -- the relationships with Pete Moran and then the guys behind --
BLOW: I guess all I'm saying is that i don't blame her. I'm not --
PARNAS: Yes, no, I don't her either.
BLOW: That's all I'm saying.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, let me bring Scott in for a second because I wonder, I mean, what Lev seems to be pointing out is that Trump has already made a decision here, and despite all the nice things that have been said about Machado, he's not really going to back her and what is now in Venezuela might very well be worse, more repressive than what was there before. Is that a risk?
JENNINGS: Sure. Some people say she is worse than Maduro, but I think on the short term, leaving a functioning government in place, at least here over last couple of weeks, is you know kept the country from falling into chaos. They've also released some political prisoners including some Americans, that's a good thing. Eventually, what you would hope is that they would have elections and the people of Venezuela will choose their government.
And whether Trump has a choice in that or not, or whether we have a preference in that or not, I guess I care about that lesson more about what the people of Venezuela won. And I'm not sure how quickly you can have an election but eventually, you'll have to get there.
PHILLIP: I would only say he is the one who has said that he has declared himself the ruler, the president -- acting President of Venezuela. He has said that we are running Venezuela, that we're calling the shots. But if that, if, I don't know, is it, is Scott right that we're not calling the shots or is Trump right that we're calling the shots?
[22:55:05]
LYMAN: Well, I think Scott's right. I think first of all, and whether or not people at this table want to believe it, every country in the Western hemisphere does exist at our pleasure because we are the superpower.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: When it comes to Venezuela right now, to Scott's point --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Sorry. Just to be clear. You're saying, every country in the Western hemisphere does exist because we want them to exist?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What are we saying?
LYMAN: Exist at our pleasure. So, for example -- can I explain? Venezuela is cozying up to Putin and China, President Trump is well within his right because we are the dominant force in the Western Hemisphere to then go and take out Maduro on drug charges, okay? Now --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Now, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Unfortunately, we don't have enough time to unpack all of that. Thank you everyone for being here. We will be right back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:06]
PHILLIP: Catch up on the latest news with your favorite, kind of, news team -- Roy Wood Jr., Amber Ruffin, and Michael Ian Black. They are back with a comic take on the week's headlines. The new season of "Have I Got News For You" premieres on January 24th at 9 P.M. Eastern on CNN, and the next day on the CNN app.
And thank you for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
