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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Western Alliance In Crisis Amid Trump Threats; Markets Fall Over Trump's Threats Against NATO, Greenland; DOJ Subpoenas Minnesota Democrats, Including Governor And Attorney General; Mamdani Says It Is Time To Abolish ICE; Air Force One Returns To Joint Andrews Base Due To Electrical Issues. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 20, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, the western alliance on the brink. Donald Trump heads to Davos to face the allies he's threatening to divorce and threatening to invade.
REPORTER: How far are you willing to go to acquire Greenland?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: You'll find out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, bug off.
PHILLIP: Plus, police in Minneapolis sound the alarm on ICE in their streets who are now stopping cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're being stopped in traffic stops or on the street with no cause.
PHILLIP: Also, the feds subpoena Minnesota Democrats, as liberals hit their limit.
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D-NEW YORK CITY, NY): I am in support of abolishing ICE.
PHILLIP: And breaking tonight, the administration admits in court that DOGE accessed sensitive data about Americans.
[22:00:06]
Live at the table, Cornel West, Ben Ferguson, Leigh McGowan, Kristin Davison, Max Boot, and Elliot Williams.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP (voice over): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America's talking about, a crisis within the western alliance. Right now, President Trump is on a plane headed for Switzerland, where he'll soon face world leaders as he's ramping up pressure in his quest to take over Greenland.
Now, just hours before he departed, Trump spent his one-year anniversary in office laying out his vision for a new world order, but also ratcheting up tensions with America's closest allies, and, again, taking aim at NATO.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The big fear I have with NATO is we spend tremendous amounts of money with NATO, and I know we'll come to their rescue, but I just really do question whether or not they'll come to ours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Trump also had this warning after he vowed to slap new tariffs on anyone who opposed his push to seize Greenland.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How far are you willing to go to acquire Greenland?
TRUMP: You'll find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, not long before those remarks, Trump publicly posted this private message with the French president, Emmanuel Macron, who wrote, in part, I don't understand what you're doing with Greenland. And then there's this one from the U.N. secretary general who said, I'm committed to finding a way forward on Greenland.
Now, all of this culminating tomorrow when Trump will take the stage at the World Economic Forum to address the very same leaders that he has spent the last few days threatening. But if today's gathering was any indication, Trump is going to be met with a frosty reception.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: Conflict has become normalized.
It's a shift towards a world without rules, where international law is trampled, underfoot, and the only law that seems to matter is that of the strongest, and imperial ambitions are resurfacing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Max Boot, this is, in the context of Trump, a continuation of his dissatisfaction with NATO, but it's amazing because it seems to be that Greenland -- he's basically saying, I'm going to take it if I want it. They won't take military action off the table. What's your biggest concern about where this is leading?
MAX BOOT, SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, my biggest concern, Abby, is that this could be leading to the dissolution of NATO, or at least a major crisis within the western alliance. Now, President Trump has done a lot of crazy things, but, arguably, this might be the craziest ever because with a lot of other things that he has done, and especially in the foreign policy sphere, there are good arguments. I mean, whatever you may think about, you know, bombing the Iranian nuclear program arresting Nicolas Maduro, there's good arguments, pro and con. It's not a crazy thing to do.
Trying to annex Greenland, trying -- you know, engaging in territorial aggression against our NATO ally, Denmark, that is just crazy. There is no concealable justification for it because anything we want to do in Greenland from a security or economic perspective, Denmark is happy to let us do it. In fact, we can do under the terms of a 1951 treaty with Denmark.
So, there is no conceivable strategic justification for what Trump is doing, and he's coming up with these ridiculous justifications, like Norway would not give me the Nobel Peace Prize, therefore I'm going to engage in aggression against Denmark. It doesn't make any sense.
And all you have to know is Europe is a continent with nearly 600 million people, GDP of roughly $22 trillion. They have been a bedrock of American security, a bedrock of American commerce for more than 80 years. That is -- we should be focusing on getting along with Europe. We should not be focusing on conquering this nearly empty land of tundra with 57,000 inhabitants. It doesn't make any sense.
PHILLIP: And meanwhile, he's rage tweeting or a Truthing overnight endorsing this post by some random account that says, at what point are we going to realize the enemy is within? China and Russia are the boogeyman when the real threat is the U.N., NATO and this religion. I put religion in quotes because it's not a religion, it's a cult. He is sending out private messages between him and other world leaders. What's going on with the president?
BEN FERGUSON, HOST, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I think this is the art of the deal with him. I think he also knows that when you walk in there and you talk about all this publicly, you probably get there faster, you get a deal done faster.
[22:05:01]
And I think he also understands that places like China, they said publicly in 2016, 2018 and 2019, that they wanted to have a major conquer in the Arctic. That is what they used in their own words publicly as a nation.
And the president's responding to that, making it clear that we need to make sure strategically that we are able to protect and defend not only the United States of America, but also allies. We need to make sure that Russia and China, and China has said it again publicly, they want to have a stronghold in the Arctic. Well, you look at this area, that's where they're pointing to.
So, I don't think the president has said anything that is irresponsible. I do think this is another example of this guy's falling by the left. And now we're at 11 times now Democrats have said that he's going to start World War III.
PHILLIP: What I don't understand what is the deal that he wants. Is the deal that he's just going to take it? Is the deal that he's going to invade it? What's the deal?
FERGUSON: At some point, I mean this sincerely, I think people on the left are going to figure out that Donald Trump has a lot of things he will say when negotiating to then use them all as leverage points.
PHILLIP: I guess, I'm not --
FERGUSON: On Tariffs is a great example of that.
PHILLIP: I'm not concerned at all, in fact, about what people on the left are saying. I'm legitimately asking, what is Trump going to -- what is the deal that he wants out of this? What is he trying to get? And why can't he just do what Max suggested, which is actually use the existing treaty to build up a U.S. military presence in Greenland, to work cooperatively with Greenlanders and with the Danes to make this happen? Why can't he do that? Why is does he keep wanting to put military action on the table?
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, when you're making a deal, you don't take anything off the table. So, to Ben's point, if he said, no, we're not going to do this and that --
PHILLIP: Nobody's told me what the deal is. What is the deal that he's said?
DAVISON: It may end up where we're talking about, but I think we need to take a step back and talk about why this is important. You talk to any senior military official, they're going to tell you the next --
PHILLIP: Hold on.
DAVISON: Let me finish my thought.
PHILLIP: No, hold on. I'm going to stop you there because we are not going to just regurgitate. Everybody understands the importance of the Arctic.
DAVISON: I don't know if we do. I don't know if we do.
PHILLIP: If we are -- okay.
DAVISON: If we are okay with China --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Everybody understands the importance of the Arctic. What I want to understand -- here's what I want to understand. What is the deal that Donald Trump is seeking to accomplish?
DAVISON: I would think --
PHILLIP: What is he trying to accomplish? What does he want? Does he want us to just take the territory? If so, how?
DAVISON: I don't think he said that. What I think is we do not want China to have the same situation, the same stronghold, which they do. Right now, our country is so far behind in terms of the ships that can actually cut through ice. The people that make them aren't even alive anymore.
PHILLIP: What does that have to do with taking over Greenland?
DAVISON: It means -- no. It is not. See --
FERGUSON: It's strategic in war.
(CROSSTALKS)
BOOT: Maybe we should be spending money on ice -- we should be spending money on icebreakers, not on taking over Greenland.
DAVISON: And that could be part of it. Everyone sits here --
FERGUSON: You and me both at the same time. You just talked about ship-building in New Orleans, and exactly that.
BOOT: That has nothing to do with Greenland.
LEIGH MCGOWAN, PODCAST HOST, POLITICSGIRL: We started off here with Ben talking about The Art of the Deal, and The Art of the Deal was ghostwritten by someone else. I think The Art of the Deal that Donald Trump is making right now is also being ghostwritten by someone else. I don't think this is his big old plan. I think he really --
FERGUSON: There's a lot of Democrats about ghostwriting, including Barack Obama. So, let's start with that.
MCGOWAN: You know what, we've really not even talked about Democrats. I think --
FERGUSON: And Joe Biden.
MCGOWAN: It's not a Democrat, Republican thing at all. NATO is one of the most successful defensive alliances in history. I think the thing we should be worried about upsetting is NATO. We created NATO 80 years ago that kept us all safe, that helped with our trade, that helped with everything else, so that what happened in World War II would never happen again. You would never have a country or a group of countries taking over other nations because they just wanted them and then ethnically cleansing them if they wanted to. And now we're going to blow all that up so that we can take over other countries ourselves and ethnically claims our own people. That seems bananas to me.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
DR. CORNEL WEST, AUTHOR, TRUTH MATTERS: Let me say something because I have a very different context in which I look at this thing. See, on the one hand, America has been an empire that denied it was an empire. Trump is very explicit about it. When he talks about taking over Greenland, taking over Venezuela, taking over Panama, that's an old style imperialist mentality, critical of Mark Twain called it into question, rightly so.
But in Trump's case, he's recognized, I mean, NATO's founded in 1949 of 12 countries, now it has 32. The great George Kennan said, what, in 1997 in the faithful area, that New York Times piece, NATO expansion is going to generate militaristic tension with a wounded Russian empire that -- with its Soviet empire collapsing in '91. Kennan believed that until the day he died 2005. So, that NATO itself has always been an instrument of American empire and the European countries have been dependent on U.S. military.
Trump is saying, I have a different imperial vision, but it's a raw imperial vision.
[22:10:00]
There's not a lot of morality in it, not a lot of integrity in it.
FERGUSON: Taking out Maduro was not a good thing?
WEST: But United States has 800 military units in 80 countries. China has two, one in Djibouti. Russia's got 22 in 10 countries in. Am I telling the truth, brother? Because you're the expert.
FERGUSON: By the way, what was the --
WEST: You're the expert.
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: How are we going to talk about Russia, but China somehow invading and taking over?
FERGUSON: You just acted like Donald Trump's foreign policy is somehow new and we just got into all these countries.
WEST: No, it's continuing. It's continuing.
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: Of course, I agree, but empire goes bad --
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: Oh, no. I want to dismantle them by, just like I want to abolish ICE and poverty and that other thing.
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: There's other ways of public safety to that. But what's important is -- the framework is very important and the facts are very important.
PHILLIP: I take your point. Max, I want to ask you about this Board of peace because Trump says he seems to suggest that he wouldn't mind if it replaced the United Nations. Now, it's interesting to me that Emmanuel Macron then, the French say they're declining, they're not joining. We've had some acceptances from Belarus, from Bahrain, from the UAE, and here's what Trump says about Macron not accepting his invitation to be on the Board of Peace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can you respond to President Macron saying he will not join the Board of Peace?
TRUMP: Oh, did he say that? Well, nobody wants him because he's going to be out of office very soon. So, you know, that's all right. What I'll do is if they feel like hostile, I'll put a 200 percent tariff on his wines and champagne.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Max, do you understand what Trump is trying to accomplish here and why he's doing it, I guess, threatening to strong-arm America's allies?
BOOTS: It's very hard to figure out, Abby, because, basically, he is destroying the international order, which has served America for more than 80 years. He is putting our NATO alliance at risk. And in place of it, he's trying to build up this weird construct called the Board of Peace, which was initially supposed to be dealing with Gaza. But he seems to want to deal with the entire world and he wants countries to pay a billion dollars for the privilege of joining up on, oh, by the way, the bylaws of the Board of Priests -- the bylaws of this Board of Peace suggest that Trump will be the leader of it in perpetuity, even after he leaves office, and then he can appoint another leader after he is gone.
Normal countries are not going to sign up for this, like Belarus may sign up for this. France, the U.K., our normal allies, are not going to sign up for this.
Just one other point I wanted to make because, you know, the way he just -- one of the ways that he justifies this territorial power grab in Greenland is to say, if we don't get it, China and Russia will get it, but there is no evidence that China and Russia are trying to get it.
FERGUSON: China said.
BOOT: Let me finish. And if they did --
FERGUSON: No, but that's just a lie. China said it.
BOOT: -- we would be obligated under the NATO treaty to d defend it right now, right now. And, in fact, Russia is applauding what Trump is doing because they see it as similar to the way that they're attacking Ukraine.
FERGUSON: So, to be clear -- hold on. To be clear, your foreign policy is, if they take it, then we'll fight them instead of America being there first? That's a flawed foreign policy.
BOTT: No. If they try to take it, we will prevent them from taking it because of the NATO treaty and also, which Trump seems to be willing to break.
PHILLIP: And also, Ben, we are already there, okay, just to remind you.
BOOT: Yes. We already have a military base there.
PHILLIP: We are there. We have a military base. We can expand. Hold on. We can expand our military presence today. We don't have to wait to take over the country. We don't have to do that. We can do it right now. Why won't he?
FERGUSON: I go back to what Donald Trump said. He -- it's amazing how transparent he is and then you're still like seeking answers from him. He's made it clear. He wants us to have an indefinite presence there to protect American interests --
BOOT: We already have that.
FERGUSON: -- and the world in a much larger way than we do now.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: (INAUDIBLE) in that part of the world where China and Russia could then swoop in, which they have done in history of the world.
PHILLIP: Where's the clarity by which he just -- he tells the American people, who, by the way, do not think that he has been handling foreign policy? Well, 57 percent says that Trump's decisions have been hurting U.S. standing. It is deeply unpopular for the -- for Trump to do anything around Greenland, according to most polls that have come out in recent months. Where's the transparency around the how? I get the what? Where's the transparency about the how? Because the how is important too.
FERGUSON: I think he's negotiating it right now publicly.
(CROSSTALKS)
DAVISON: Every president, including Eisenhower, is trying to get more countries to contribute defense spending, and Trump is the first one to get it done, 5 percent increase.
PHILLIP: That has --
DAVISON: This is -- yes, it is because it's all part --
FERGUSON: He wants other countries to pay their fair share.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: It has nothing to do with that.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Everybody will give Trump credit for pushing NATO countries to increase their spending up to their --
DAVISON: What will Democrats say tomorrow when Trump gives his speech --
[22:15:01]
PHILLIP: However, Trump has to explain whether or not he is really putting on the table a military takeover by the United States of another country. Do you think that's what he's doing? And if he weren't --
DAVISON: I don't.
FERGUSON: I don't either.
DAVISON: I don't.
FERGUSON: Not even close. If you know Trump --
(CROSSTALKS)
DAVISON: The one thing he didn't show is that he said NATO will be very happy with what we do. That's the one clip we didn't show here at all.
WEST: Because they don't seem to be too happy.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: All right guys.
BOOT: He just tweeted a picture of himself planting the stars and stripes in Greenland, so I think, in fact, he is threatening to take it over.
PHILLIP: Yes, all right, transparency.
FERGUSON: I thought we already did. That shouldn't be shocking.
PHILLIP: Next for us, President Trump touts ending the weaponization of the DOJ. At the same time, the department subpoenas Minnesota Democrats over claims that they obstructed ICE crackdowns.
Plus, to abolish ICE or not to abolish ICE? That is the question facing Democrats, and it doesn't appear that the party is all on the same page with their answer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, doctors and local officials in Minnesota are sounding the alarm over the increased, quote, chaos and fear that ICE is bringing to their communities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROLI DWIVEDI, FORMER PRESIDENT, MINNESOTA ACADEMY OF FAMILY PHYSICIANS: No one deserves to die or suffer because of how they look or how they speak, or where they were born.
The cycle of fear is claiming lives. Recently, a patient discharged from the hospital missed their follow-up because they were too afraid to leave their home.
STATE SEN. ALICE MANNN (D-MN): This is a moment of crisis in this state because of ICE and their presence in our healthcare settings. This is not making our city safer. It is about harming entire communities, making certain that certain communities feel afraid to go out to get groceries, to go to school, to go to work, and now are afraid to get medical care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And it's not just doctors. Local police chiefs are also warning that ICE is targeting not only citizens of their towns but off-duty officers based on their race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK BRULEY, BROOKLYN PARK POLICE CHIEF: We started hearing from our police officers the same complaints as they fell victim to this while off duty. Every one of these individuals is a person of color who has had this happen to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Former DOJ Prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst Elliot Williams is joining us in our fifth seat. He's got a new book out today. It's called Five Bullets, and you should all pick it up. We are lucky to have you. Happy pub day to you.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you ma'am.
PHILLIP: Elliot, look, this is really astonishing, this press conference, especially the comments by the Brooklyn Park Police chief. He alleges that. His officers are being stopped. And I want to play one particular example that he gave. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRULEY: One particular officer that's shared her story with me was stopped as she passed ICE going down the roadway. When they boxed her in, they demanded her paperwork of which she's a U.S. citizen and clearly would not have any paperwork. When she became concerned about the rhetoric and the way she was being treated, she pulled out her phone in an attempt to record. The instant the phone was knocked out of her hands, prevented her from recording it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: So, a lot described there. What do you hear? Because I have a lot of questions about what DHS says are the supposedly targeted ICE stops that they are doing and how that would drag in an off-duty police officer.
WILLIAMS: Right. And I come at this not just as a Justice Department person but also having worked at ICE for four and a half years as a senior executive there.
So, let's be clear, this is sloppy law enforcement. Regardless of what anybody thinks about how the president is conducting immigration enforcement or what his goals were when he came into office, it's just sloppy. And I think it's a couple things. One, these officers are incentivized to be as aggressive as they possibly can, I mean, both in terms of salary and bonus and so on. They have an incentive to behave in this manner, number one. And, number two, the standards have been lowered for who can get hired. And when, number one, standards are lowered, two, you know, they're given a task of that they are simply not equipped to handle if they're being told to arrest thousands of people a day, and the government simply is not equipped to do so, you're going to start to see abuses like this.
And so I am not shocked that this is happening. If we -- if the president and the administration truly wanted to move a million people a year, then they ought to fund the government to do that or provide the personnel or resources or whatever else and find the political will to do it. But you can't will that into existence without people's rights being violated,
PHILLIP: You know, President Trump seems to have woken up to the political challenges that he's facing around ICE, because starting with this Truth Social post, he says, DHS needs to talk more about the murderers and the criminals, and then people will start supporting the patriots of ICE. And then at a press conference today, he also seems to suggest that the real problem that they face is not promoting enough what ICE is doing. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are average Americans wrong to still feel high prices? And how much longer does the White House hope that they --
TRUMP: So, I think a lot of people -- a lot of people are listening to the fake news a little bit, and I'm not blaming anybody. I think I blame ourselves. I think we've done a much better job than we're able to promote. We're not promoting. We're doing a great job and we're sort of letting the promotion take care of itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:25:00]
PHILLIP: At what point will there be an acknowledgement that Americans are seeing what's happening and they're not liking it?
DAVISON: Well, the president, I think, also said that -- it was The New York Times today, that, in some instances, things we handled better and they need to look at it. I think while the public has a perception and some of the approval might be down there, they still trust Republicans and the president by a 28-point margin on the issue of immigration and the border of handling this.
And the reason why is because we saw a press conference, and let's table for a second whether, you know, we agree with tactics or how they're doing it, we saw a press conference today hitting ICE in the law enforcement officials who are keeping these communities safe. I don't recall seeing any of those individuals do a press conference when innocent American citizens were killed by dangerous, illegal cartel members, gang members, things like that. And so there's a reason here.
And the Democrat Party can cry all they want about how things -- you know, there are situations that could be better, 100 percent, and the president acknowledged that. What can't be denied is that we are in this situation because Democrats sat in the -- under the Biden administration -- sat back and let this happen for four years. We've had eight months. Not one illegal immigrant has crossed over the border, and that's because of the Trump administration.
WEST: I hear what you're saying. But the problem is, you see, it's not a question of Democrats versus Republicans.
DAVISON: It is.
WEST: The question of the truth.
DAVISON: (INAUDIBLE) their choice.
WEST: The question of the truth. Neither one of the parties want to tell the truth. So, if you two just want to continually be preoccupied with being parasitic on the Democrats, we can talk about the Democrats to tell the cows, go home. They might have little to do with truth, little to do with justice. When you're terrorizing and traumatizing our people who are disproportionately chocolate, of course, it's racist. Of course it is.
FERGUSON: True or false?
WEST: What's that bro?
FERGUSON: Did we allow millions of people vetted into this country, many of them who are criminals, rapists, child molesters, child rapists, murderers, gang bangers, people killing people with fentanyl, bringing in a lot drugs --
WEST: How long is your question going to go, brother?
FERGUSON: Well, it's a long list.
WEST: I think you got enough. I think you got enough. I think you got enough.
FERGUSON: 10 million, 15 million. WEST: Let me tell you what my answer is. Let me tell you what my answer is.
FERGUSON: You got a problem and you guys did that.
WEST: Let me tell you what my answer is though, Brother Ben.
FERGUSON: What is it?
WEST: That there's no doubt that the Democrats did in fact have -- were a colossal failure when it came to immigration. That's a fact.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
WEST: But the other truth is -- though. Let me finish now, brother. Don't just keep your flow coming out of University of Mississippi now.
PHILLIP: All right, Dr. West, everybody keep their hands to themselves at the table.
FERGUSON: I love this man.
WEST: You know I wasn't going to start swinging on you, man. You know that. But it is a rhetorical swing because the fact is this. If every immigrant disappeared in America tomorrow, which makes it a distraction now, you're talking about immigrants, we still have poverty, we still have deep conflict, class, racial conflict.
FERGUSON: You'd have a lot less crime.
WEST: Well, not necessarily. A lot of Native Americans, a lot --
(CROSSTALKS)
WEST: It's all the distractions. It's all the distraction.
PHILLIP: I don't think there's really much evidence at all for that at, including that -- hold on a second.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: There is crime that happens. There's a crime that is committed by immigrants and there's crime that's committed by mostly American.
(CROSSTALKS)
FERGUSON: Which you go to say that's a bad issue.
PHILLIP: And immigrants can commit crimes at a lower rate than native- born Americans. That's a fact.
FERGUSON: Tell that to any immigrant who had been killed by an illegal immigrant.
MCGOWAN: Here's the thing. I think that what I'm hearing a lot is the Democrats, the Democrats, the Democrats, Biden, Biden, Biden. Dr. West explained that, and I think the thing is, it's not political to say that we don't want murderers in our country. We don't want pedophiles in our country. We want those people identified and we want those people punished.
FERGUSON: Then why are you not working with ICE to get rid them?
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
FERGUSON: But it's a fair question.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Just let her --
MCGOWAN: And you keep --
FERGUSON: Yes. But you just said we want to get rid of them, but you don't work with ICE.
PHILLIP: Ben, let's let her make her point so we can understand what she's trying to say. Go ahead.
MCGOWAN: That'd be great. Thanks.
FERGUSON: Go ahead.
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Leigh.
MCGOWAN: We all want that, okay? And if Trump -- Donald Trump wants to get on T.V. and say, our problem is, we haven't highlighted our accomplishments enough, I would say great, highlight your accomplishments. Prove it. Prove you are getting the worst of the worst. Show us the murderers and the rapists and the killers that you are arresting. Stop yourself. Then tell us you're not rounding up --
FERGUSON: (INAUDIBLE) holding with pictures.
MCGOWAN: You can't stop yourself, man.
PHILLIP: Hang on a second.
MCGOWAN: Zip it.
PHILLIP: Please.
FERGUSON: No. Sorry, you're not my mom. And, second of all, you don't get to make it up. You've had the posters at the White House, the people that have been arrested. You said, show them to me. We just showed them to you.
PHILLIP: Ben, just a second.
FERGUSON: You don't like it.
PHILLIP: Ben, just a second. I'll say one thing and then I'm going to let her finish. They have released a short list of names, but they've also claimed that they've arrested thousands of murderers and rapists and criminals. They have not released the full list of thousands of alleged murderers, rapists, and criminals. So, that's also true. Now, continue.
MCGOWAN: Prove you're not rounding up line cooks and roofers and abuelas and healthcare workers and you're giving them actual due process and cause. Prove you are saving innocent lives and not just taking them on the street.
[22:30:01]
Prove you have any sort of system, that you aren't just arbitrarily setting up checkpoints and pulling people out that are brown or Asian or black. Prove that you have citizenship, that you're checking, that you're making sure you're not taking citizens.
Prove that you're not jumping people at work and setting up checkpoints as people just try to drive home to their neighborhoods because this is the same administration that said, here's our health plan, don't look at it, empty binders. Here's the thing where I'm going to get away from all of my businesses, empty binders.
This is the same man that said here's the Epstein files. I'm going to give them all to you. Now, I can't. So, you prove to me that you are not taking innocent people, civilians, and you're not beating them on the street.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm going to go back to answer your question.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: Prove it to me, because you cannot.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. We're -- we -- hold on. Hold on, Ben. We're going to stop here for just a moment because we have to continue. We have to take a break and then we're going to continue. There's more to talk about on this issue of ICE. And now, the question the Democrats are grappling with is, what do they do about ICE? The answer has been complicated for them and it's dividing the party. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:42]
PHILLIP: Tonight, as Democrats weigh how to best respond to the growing unpopularity of President Trump's immigration crackdown, one of the party's newest faces isn't holding back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D) MAYOR OF NEWYORK: I am in support of abolishing ICE. We're seeing a government agency that is supposed to be enforcing some kind of immigration law, but instead what it's doing is terrorizing people no matter their immigration status, no matter the facts of the law, no matter the facts of the case. And I'm tired of waking up every day and seeing a new image of someone being dragged out of a car, dragged out of their home, dragged out of their life.
What we need to see is humanity. And there is a way to care about immigration in this city and in this country with a sense of humanity. What we're seeing from ICE is not it and we have not seen that from them in a long --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey is taking a different approach to that question. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFF JENKINS, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you support abolishing ICE?
JACOB FREY (D) MAYOR OF MINNEAPOLIS: I do not support abolishing ICE. However, I absolutely oppose the way that this administration is conducting themselves with us. We want to keep this city safe. This is not accomplishing it by any standard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, there are a couple issues here. I mean, obviously, Dr. West, there's the rhetorical question of should it be abolished or should it be something else. But then, there's the question that Kristin brought up which is just because what Trump is doing is unpopular doesn't mean that Democrats are trusted on the issue. How do they find a way to actually have a message on immigration and should that message be abolished in your view?
WEST: Well, I ran the presidential candidacy based on abolishing ICE and poverty and a lot of other things. And my argument was that if you don't have strong mechanisms of accountability to make sure that people are being treated humanely as human beings and as citizens, then you don't need to have that particular institution.
And there's an intimate relation between raw imperialism abroad with no regard for international law or human rights, and escalating raw fascism at home with private armies and secret police with no accountability whatsoever. Nobody goes in and treats people the way they do unless they feel that they have immunity, unless they feel that they can get away with it. And in history, black folk really lays that out -- slavery, Jim Crow, police brutality in black community. What --
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: Never. Not at all. I want accountability --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Then you're different than Mamdani. So, that's good.
WEST: Well, no, but I I'll tell you about Brother Zohran. I tell him this. He's got a police commissioner who not only was a little bit too open to stop and frisk him and he must went to jail for that. But she also has the role of providing surveillance and data to ICE. So, you can't, on the one hand appear, as if you're a sanctuary city and then have a police commissioner --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, let me get Elliot's view on this because Elliot has also -- I mean, you understand this agency. I think that what ICE has been doing, how they have been transformed now, has made the agency actually very different.
WILLIAMS: Of course.
PHILLIP: I mean, doing traffic stops, you know, sort of stopping people on the street and forcing them to show their papers is not what ICE was doing five years ago.
WILLIAMS: Yes, a couple of things. Now, the brand of the agency is largely toxic now. And just by way of comparison, in 2018, the top customs enforcement officials at ICE, of them, remember, it's immigration and customs enforcement, literally wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security asking to be broken off as a separate agency just because they didn't want to be associated with the immigration side of the house because of how politically polarizing and toxic and problematic it is.
But I want to pick up on one thing that Professor West said. It's not -- because you used the word accountability, and what's missing here and certainly what we had through my four years there from both Democratic and Republican Congresses was a Congress that was willing to look critically at the things that ICE and the rest of DHS was doing.
Congress isn't doing that now. There's a very rare issue. The Epstein files seem to be the one thing where Congress has really sort of held the administration's feet to the fire, but they really are not critical questioning or hearings or anything from.
FERGUSON: Here's the thing that I think is important. ICE is not having to do what you're watching in Minneapolis, for example, and other cities that cooperate with ICE and work with them on detainers for illegal immigrants that are in jail who have committed crimes.
If you don't want this type of, as you described it, chaos or anarchy or law enforcement that worries you, there's a real easy way to fix it. There's about, I don't know, two, 300 cities in America that cooperate with ICE. And you don't have any of this there. You don't have any of it there.
PHILLIP: You also don't have 2000 ICE or border patrol officials anywhere else in the nation other than in Minneapolis. And on top of that, hold on a second, there were sanctuary cities under Biden, under Obama, under Trump one. We did not see this happening. And to add to that, look, ICE raids -- controversial, always have been, always will be.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Not really. When Obama --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I think the parts -- the parts -- oh, it certainly is.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: It actually was --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: No, no. Hold on. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. There were -- there was a lot of controversy around Trump about -- around Obama's ICE raids. But here's the thing that really seems to be getting to Minneapolis residents. But also, like Former Congressman Justin Amash, a former Republican congressman.
He says, "Abolish ICE. What we've seen recently isn't immigration enforcement, it's state-sponsored terrorism. They should not exist. They're using the context of immigration as a pretext to sidestep constitutional limits, warrants, due process, transparency that protect us all from government abuses."
It is the masks. It is the random stops. It is the, where are your papers? We're going to hold you until we're able to use facial recognition technology to determine whether you're a citizen or not. Those are the things that people like Amash, a libertarian, a constitutionalist type of person, is deeply uncomfortable with and a lot of Americans might be, as well.
DAVISON: I think that was a flawed example, with all due respect to former congressman. He's looking for a way to be relevant. He's using this to do it. I think you both said some really great --
PHILLIP: Is it possible that --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: So, you made a really great point early, and so did you, that ICE looks a lot different than it did five years ago. Thank God it does because five years ago we had a huge immigration crisis in this country where people were flooding over the --
FERGUSON: Millions flooding in. DAVISON: So, I'm so happy ICE looks different than it did five years
ago --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: That's what Americans voted for.
PHILLIP: So, you're comfortable with ICE officers walking around masked and stopping citizens?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, hold on. All right. So, we've got some answer --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- masks -- inquiring about citizens' papers and passports and --
(CROSSTALK)
DAVISON: I agree with President Trump. There are situations that need --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Are we supposed to travel with birth certificates now? What's the deal?
DAVISON: I haven't seen that implemented anywhere, but I do agree with the President that there are situations that --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I've seen it.
MCGOWAN: I've seen it. We've all seen it.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: This is breaking news.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Who at this table has seen ICE or border officials asking people to show documentation of citizenship or where they were born?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Hold on. Do we have a single camera of anybody -- a body cam that says show me your birth certificate? This is how fake news happened.
PHILLIP: Ben, have you seen evidence of ICE asking people for documentation of their -- yes. What's -- for documentation of their citizenship of where they were born. Have you seen it? It's a yes or no -- it's a yes or no answer.
FERGUSON: That's normal thing to ask for documentation. Here it is.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Ben, Ben, let me ask you -- hold on a second.
FERGUSON: You have to, now in America, walk around with diversity? That's what you said.
PHILLIP: Last question.
FERGUSON: I didn't use that example. You did.
PHILLIP: Last question for you, Ben. When you go out for a walk or a jog, you're carrying your birth certificate or your passport with you?
FERGUSON: I carry my license, which is a form of documentation. I'm an American citizen, so I have that.
PHILLIP: Hold on. But guess what?
FERGUSON: This is not scary. When I flew, I had to get this out and go --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm an American citizen and I still had to show my license today to come on your show.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second, Ben. Did you know -- okay. Did you know -- all right. Hang on a second. We got some breaking news. Everyone, stand by.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
PHILLIP: All right, breaking news, just in. We have just learned that Air Force One is turning around and returning to Joint Base Andrews just a couple of minutes after taking off from Davos -- for Davos, Switzerland. President Trump was scheduled to meet with world leaders at the World Economic Forum. We're going to bring in CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes.
[22:45:02]
Kristen, what do we know about what's happening here?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: So we have been told by a source that was familiar with what is going on that Air Force One did turn around a moment ago. It is on its way back to Joint Air Force Base Andrews. And this is because of what they are calling a small mechanical issue. They're saying that it is not serious, but that they needed to return back. And that President Trump is still going to go to Davos, but he will be taking a backup plane.
And so likely, what we're going to see is an entire deplaning of the President and his team, and getting up on one of these backup support planes that is waiting right now currently at Andrews Air Force Base. And one thing to keep in mind, there is a pool traveling with him of reporters, but one of the complications on Air Force One, of course, is that there is no internet for those reporters once they are airborne.
So, we will have likely a readout from those pool reporters as to what exactly was going on aboard Air Force One during this time. But what we know right now is that that plane did make essentially a u-turn after leaving and is on its way back to Andrews Air Force Base in order to have the President swap planes.
Again, this is expected that he will still be going to Davos. He will still be giving his speech, but -- and meeting with those world leaders. But again, obviously, things will be slightly delayed given what occurred today.
PHILLIP: Yes, and this is approximately a seven and a half hour trip to Davos. Kristen, if you're still with us, Kristen, do you know how -- what their ETA back to joint base Andrews is, how much longer they have for President Trump to get back to that base?
HOLMES: We aren't entirely sure. It certainly seems as though this this happened in recent -- in the last 30 minutes. We started seeing reports online that Air Force one had turned around so we started reaching out to sources to see because you know there are a couple of different things that could have happened there. We also know that the tracking is not always 100 percent accurate. And so, we started reaching out to sources and that's when we learned that he would be uh turning back.
So, but again, it seems to be some kind of minor electrical issue. At this point, there is not -- it doesn't seem as though there is anything serious that happened on the plane. We should at any moment really once they get low enough be able to get some kind of readout from the pool traveling with the President to get exactly what they are being told is happening.
PHILLIP: And Kristen, I know that information is a little scant right now, but you know, I've also been on these trips on Air Force One and have had to deal sometimes with mechanical issues happening just before we're about to take off. Sometimes then, they have to switch to that other backup plane and it's not the large, you know, plane that the President is used to for traveling longer distances.
Do you have any sense of what type of backup they are planning to utilize, if it's going to be the same type of plane, the same size, or if it might be one of the smaller planes?
HOLMES: It's unclear right now. I would -- you know that he had a number, what I was told is he had a number of support planes. They always have a number of support planes. Some of them fly with him. He obviously needs them once he gets there as well to have backup planes. But we were told that there was a plane waiting for him already at JBA at Andrew, at Air Force base when he gets there. So clearly, they had something set up. We are not sure what kind of plane it be. I mean, just a reminder, he
is traveling with a pretty large entourage. So, it's going to have to be one of the bigger planes, since he's got Secretary Marco Rubio, to staff, Susie Wiles, both of his communications director, the press secretary, a number of others who are traveling on this trip with him. So it will likely be a larger plane. Plus we'll have to have that press pool that I mentioned traveling with them and all the secret service that is required for a foreign trip.
So, but it's unclear like which kind of plane it's going to be, but it does appear, or at least what my source is telling me is that there's already a plane waiting on the tarmac for them to quickly deplane and get back airborne for Davos.
PHILLIP: And based on his schedule for the upcoming day, does this delay, do you think, potentially delay anything once he arrives on the ground or change what he might have to do once he arrives there?
HOLMES: Well, I mean, look. One of the most interesting things that we heard from him, Abby, is just-- moments before he left was this, idea that he had no idea what to expect when he got to Davos.
[22:50:04]
I mean, we are really at a time right now where our relationship are being the United States with European allies is probably the most tense it's been -- really, the most -- one of the most tense time since he came back into office. There has been escalating rhetoric when it comes to Greenland. President Trump made a joke today during his very lengthy press briefing about, I bet they're all really excited to see me -- can't wait for me to get there.
I mean, he's acknowledging that the relationships right now are incredibly frayed. And when we asked specifically what meetings he had, he said he was meeting with several foreign leaders to talk about Greenland, but we've not gotten any kind of list breakdown of who he's meeting with and when.
We know, of course, he was supposed to give that speech as soon as he landed or around right when he landed to the world economic forum but I mean that in itself was going to be a big question mark as to how he approached that speech particularly given what we saw today in the briefing room.
So, in terms of what is schedule if they have been -- they've give us kind of block the what he's doing but no real specifics, we do know that there are a lot of foreign leaders who would like to be able to sit down with them and get a read on what actually going on in his mind and with the U.S. military and with his administration when it comes to Greenland in particular.
But not clear how this is going to affect those meetings given that we've really had such scant details on what exactly his hourly schedule is going to be once he gets there.
PHILLIP: That's very interesting. Kristen, stand by for us. I'm going to bring in now CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo. Mary, can you tell us from your great experience in this field, what do you think would cause the crew here to decide that it was worth just turning the plane back, something that would appear as they were en route to Davos that would cause them to then decide to go back.
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, USDOT: Well, even though there's a great number of redundancies in Air Force One, there are some things, of course, that you can't overlook. For example, if they had control surface issues, if there were anything on the controls where they had any kind of problem at all controlling the, you know, nose up, nose down, you know, ailerons turning, any kind of control surface issue might require them to turn around and go back.
And then there are some warnings that you simply, you know, you can't ignore. If you get certain warnings on, you know, on the engines, if you have any kind of indication that there's any kind of problem with the fuel, that's highly unlikely. But you know the Air Force One and when I was inspector general, we actually had an issue where we had to get some bogus parts off of Air Force One.
And you know, it is an aircraft and there are warnings on that 747 that cannot be ignored. But you know this is -- this has to be one of the most, you know, best maintained planes in the world. But there are things on every aircraft where when that warning light comes on you have to seek -- you know, you have to turn around and go back and address it.
So it's possible if you had any kinds of warnings like that, despite the great number of redundancies, there are some things that do require you to return to the airport as soon as possible.
PHILLIP: Yes. And you know, these things do happen. I've seen it happen many a time. So even on the most watched plane in the entire world. And we're going to bring back in Kristen Holmes because my understanding, Kristen, is that you have some new information. Kristen, what are you learning? \
HOLMES: Yes, so they have -- we finally got that pool note that we were talking about from the reporters on the plane. And also we've seen that now they've posted it to their rapid response page. But essentially, what it says in the pool note here is it says an urgent update. After takeoff, the crew of Air Force one identified a quote, "minor electrical issue and out of an abundance of caution, we are turning around, landing at Joint Base Andrews and boarding a new aircraft.
And that came from the press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt to the pool. They did note this is a note from the pool are -- to the entire pool the lights in the press cabin went out briefly after takeoff but no explanation was offered. Again, as we've discussed, this is to going to delay their arrival. But one question I can now answer for you, Abby, is that they are expected to land back at Andrews in about 20 -- now, seven minutes, at 11 P.M.
And then again, they'll have to deplane, get the bags off the plane, re-bored. And then they'll be on the way to Zurich (ph). PHILLIP: Kristen, thank you for that. I'm going to bring Mary back in, because Mary, I'm curious when you hear minor electrical issue what brings -- and also that detail about the lights going out in the press cabin at the back of the plane, what does that bring to your mind?
SCHIAVO: Well, any kind of electrical issue can be of tremendous concern because again, while lots of you know all the equipment to the extent possible has backups, in some cases, there's not just one backup, but two or three backups.
[22:55:02]
If you're having an electrical issue on the plane, it can affect so many different -- so many different parts of the plane, so many different circuits, so many different things, that truly what the message says from the plane out of an abundance and caution, they really have to do that because the last thing, you know, one of the things that's very difficult to survive when you're halfway across the ocean is if you have an electrical problem, any kind of electrical failure, an electrical you know, a fire, that is something that literally overrides everything else.
And the Air Force crew flying that plane really cannot risk it. And it would not be, you know, proper or legal. If they get certain warning lights on, they have to return to base as soon as possible. And you know, switching aircraft is, that's going to be a bit of -- it's not as fast as it seems, even though of course they always have the second one and of course that one will become Air Force One, wherever the President is, is Air Force One.
But it does take a, you know, a significant amount of time to get everything switched over. It's always secure because it's at Andrews, but you have to do all the pre-flight, you have to do everything that they have done to get this plane ready. They now have to get that plane ready.
But anytime you hear electrical, and any chance of any kind of fire electrical failure arcing, I mean, literally could affect any system on the plane. So I think that we probably got the right message from Andrews, from the Air Force that they had to return.
PHILLIP: And Mary, you know, this fleet of planes is on the older side and President Trump has been very vocal about his desire to have them replaced. There's another fleet of planes that he redecorated in his first term that still has not yet been delivered. You know, in moments like this, it does seem that there are some challenges that these planes are facing. What do you think is the problem with having an Air Force One fleet that potentially has these types of problems on big trips like this?
SCHIAVO: Well, the age of an aircraft, as you said, is a huge issue because, you know, it used to be years ago, it used to be when we considered a 20-year-old aircraft, there's even a term for it, tired iron, but now we've extended the age of the planes and the useful life of the planes. And you know, on these with the top-notch service of the Air Force, you can continue to extend it.
But, you know, there are life-limited parts, and of course those have to be replaced, and they are replaced. Some of that is wiring. But with electrical, could be any number of things. It could be as simple as, you know, a faulty switch, a fuse, et cetera. Or it could be a problem with the wiring somewhere in the plane that will take a while to figure out.
But this is tired iron. This is an old aircraft and you know, like antique cars. I mean, they can fly forever with proper maintenance, but in some cases they can, and especially Air Force One, because there are highly significant also anti-attack, anti-terrorist things on the plane.
Now, not like the movie Air Force One, there's no escape pod, but there are additional systems that require the electric communications, the electrical systems. You know, it could be any number of systems and this is a highly sophisticated plane, but it's old. So, you know, the time for new ones has come and gone, but we have what we have.
PHILLIP: Yes, we certainly have what we have and you know, as President Trump is trying to not just get that new fleet of planes from Boeing but also potentially get that Qatari plane retrofitted, who knows when that will end up happening.
Mary, we have about 90 seconds left with you. I do just quickly wonder, how would they have been confident that they had the leeway to even fly this plane back to Joint Base Andrews versus having to stop somewhere else, perhaps closer.
SCHIAVO: Well, given the very specialized electronic equipment on the plane, I mean, their first choice would be obviously to get it back to Andrews. And if they could safely make that decision, that's decision they would make. Now, obviously, they could land at other Air Force bases, and they have and they can. But Andrews is where it needs to be for the crew and especially for all things that they have. And somebody made that decision that they can have the other plane there and reasonably ready to go when they get there.
So that was another consideration. They have to get the second plane ready as well because, you know, unlike certain U.S. carriers, if you land in one airport, they don't have the plane that -- I've been put on buses before.
[23:00:06]
PHILLIP: Yes.
SCHIAVO: They can't really do that with security. So, there are a lot of considerations, but Andrews is the place to go.
PHILLIP: That's right. And Mary Schiavo, thank you very much for bringing your expertise. We are monitoring the situation. Down in Washington as President Trump and his staff are expected to land back at Joint Base Andrews after a minor electrical problem was found on Air Force One, they are expected to leave back for Davos later tonight. Laura Coates will pick up our coverage on this breaking news story right now.
