Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Savannah Guthrie Makes Emotional Plea for Mother's Return; Trump Says Deadly ICE Shootings Should Not Have Happened; Bannon Calls on Trump to Have ICE Surround Midterm Elections. Bannon Says ICE Needs To Surround Polls; Scott Bessent Defends America's Troubles. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired February 04, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, after weeks of chaos, Donald Trump pulls back on ICE in Minnesota, as his number two refuses to pull back on claims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Pretti?
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: For what?
PHILLIP: Plus, while the President pushes to nationalize America's, one of his MAGA bulldogs wants to galvanize them.
STEVE BANNON, HOST, BANNON'S WAR ROOM: You're damn right, we're going to have ICE surround the polls come November.
PHILLIP: Also, during a fiery hearing, Trump's money man floats a new defense for the nation's economic troubles.
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: Adding 10 to 20 million new people demanding housing, Congresswoman, is what caused a great deal of housing inflation.
PHILLIP: And the first lady before --
MELANIA TRUMP, U.S. FIRST LADY: Is captured on camera and available to see in my new film, Melania.
PHILLIP: -- the first lady after.
REPORTER: Why do you feel it is appropriate to use an official White House event to promote your documentary?
M. TRUMP: This is not promotion.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Bakari Sellers, Brianna Lyman, Neera Tanden and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
And we're beginning with breaking news tonight, an emotional plea in a heartbreaking video from Today Show Anchor Savannah Guthrie and her siblings. They are asking for their mother's safe return. Nancy Guthrie disappeared from her home four days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our mom is our heart and our home. She's 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile. She lives in constant pain. She's without any medicine. She needs it to survive, and she needs it not to suffer.
We too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we are doing everything that we can.
We need to know without a doubt that she's alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you and we are ready to listen.
Everyone is looking for you, Mommy, everywhere. We will not rest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's incredibly, incredibly heartbreaking. Multiple media outlets have reported receiving ransom notes and authorities are investigating those, but not yet confirming whether they are authentic. It is also worth noting that there has been increased activity at the home of Nancy Guthrie this evening, although it's not clear exactly why.
Meantime, President Trump says that he is directing the federal government to help in this investigation. And we will, of course, bring you updates throughout the show, and Laura Coates will have coverage at the top of the hour.
And, once again, if you have any information related to this case and the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please call the numbers on your screen.
And we are continuing to pray and hope for Nancy's return, pray for the Guthrie family.
Moving on now to other breaking news, after weeks of outrage, following two deadly ICE shootings in Minneapolis, and after weeks of deflecting and victim-blaming by the White House, here's what President Trump is now saying about the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm not happy with the two incidents. It's not -- you know, it's both of them, not one or the other. He was not an angel. And she was not an angel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned Renee Good and Alex Pretti not being angels. Do you think any of that justified what happened to them though?
D. TRUMP: No, I don't. It should have not happened. It was a very sad -- to me, it was a very sad incident, two incidents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, those comments by Trump come as we are seeing a change in the streets of Minnesota. Today, Border Czar Tom Homan initiated his drawdown plan by pulling 700 federal agents out of the state. About 2,000 will still remain on the ground in Minneapolis.
In the meantime, Trump's vice president is refusing to back down on claims that he amplified about one of the victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Pretti?
VANCE: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For, you know, labeling him an assassin with ill intent?
[22:05:01]
VANCE: Well, again, I just described to you what I said about Alex Pretti, which is that he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ICE protest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, but if it --
VANCE: He's a guy --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, but if it is determined that his civil rights were violated if by this FBI investigation, will you apologize to that --
VANCE: So, if this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical leads to another hypothetical, will I do a thing? And, again, like I said, we're going to let the investigation determine, we're going to let the actual law come to the surface and figure out what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He is saying both things at the same time. He's standing by calling Alex Pretti an assassin and also saying somehow that the investigation is going to just continue. A lot of people would listen to that and say he's already drawn his own conclusion.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Yes, I mean, he actually said he was an assassin hours after the incident happened. He didn't wait for any investigation. He didn't wait for any understanding. He just basically put that out there. And the fact that you have Donald Trump saying that this was terrible, that these died, that he's willing to say that it was wrong, that they died and you have his vice president saying, no, I'm standing -- basically, I'm standing by calling Alex Pretti, a man who was shot ten times, many times in the back, it's been labeled a homicide, he's willing to not say -- not retrench anything he said. I mean, I just think that's, frankly, inhuman.
PHILLIP: Why won't he back down on that when all the other officials have?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe he's waiting to see how it all turns out and maybe he believes Pretti, you know, shouldn't have been there. Maybe he believes Pretti, you know, did engage in activity that he should have been engaging in.
PHILLIP: That he was planning on an assassination?
JENNINGS: Yes. Look, I don't know.
PHILLIP: He called him an assassin.
JENNINGS: But, you know, I also think that what he said is true, we should see what the results of the investigation are. And I also think what President Trump said is true.
PHILLIP: Should he have taken that back? He called -- he described him as a would-be assassin. It's a -- I mean, everyone makes mistakes. The vice president could acknowledge he made a mistake. Why didn't he? Should he?
JENNINGS: That's up to him. I don't know. I mean, look, he made the comments that he made. He's standing by them today. The president also made the comments that he made. And, look, you know, I know it's a little rudimentary, but the president's word is what matters in the White House. The president doesn't let's (INAUDIBLE) what happened. And the president says he wants them investigated and he doesn't want to see these kinds of things happening in the streets. And so --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Okay. So, first of all, it wasn't just J.D. Vance, right? It was many in this administration. It was Stephen Miller. It was Kristi Noem calling her him a domestic terrorist and calling Renee Good, a domestic terrorist when their bodies were still warm, when there were no facts known. It's irresponsible. It's indecent. It's cruel to the family. But this administration believes that apologizing makes you weak, makes you look weak, and it's the wrong thing to do.
And so, you know, I just think that we've come become accustomed to the Trump administration not apologizing or not taking things back under any circumstance. And, you know, this is the least shocking thing that's happened today.
PHILLIP: I think it's a case of, yes, generally, the Trumpian way of doing things is to not back down and apologize.
NAVARRO: No, but double down.
PHILLIP: At the same time, they're withdrawing 700 officials from Minneapolis, and this is also what Trump has said about that drawdown and about the broader strategy in Minnesota.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That big change on immigration, 700 officers leaving Minneapolis, did that come from you?
D. TRUMP: Yes, it did, but it didn't come from me because I just wanted to do it. We have -- we are waiting for them to release prisoners, give us the murderers that they're holding and all of the bad people, drug dealers, all of the bad people.
I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a softer touch, but you still have to be tough. These are criminals. We're dealing with really hard criminals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, I mean, look, in a way Trump is backing down there. And I know that a lot of liberals may not want to give him a way out, but they sought a way out of this and they took it. And that's, I think, what we're seeing.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you don't get away out after two people are murdered in the street. And let's actually go through the natural progression on December 31st, nobody's mentioned the name Keith Porter, who was murdered by an off-duty ICE agent on December 31st after firing shots into the air in Los Angeles, California. And then you get to Renee Good, and then you get to Alex Pretti, and you have a straight white male who's a gun owner who's gunned down in the street, shot ten times for our eyes to see, and then the tides change.
What you saw from J.D. Vance was J.D. Vance being an A-hole.
[22:10:02]
And that's emblematic of the White House. But even more importantly, it's something that shows a bit of naivete from the vice president in that he's not reading the same tea leaves that even Donald Trump is reading. The majority of white male evangelicals are fleeing away from this, you know, ICE in the middle of the streets, taking women and children out, shooting white people in the middle of the streets. It is really causing a distress amongst just common sense Republicans. That is what we are seeing. And Donald Trump in this particular moment is not on the same page as J.D. Vance.
The last thing is, and this is what frustrates me about people saying that, all of a sudden Donald Trump's taking a softer tone, or whatever it may be. The facts are this, only 5 percent of the people that they have deported thus far are violent criminal offenders. 73 percent of the individuals have no criminal record. You can shake your head. It's from the Cato Institute.
JENNINGS: It's false. It's false.
SELLERS: The Cato Institute is false?
JENNINGS: The federal government, the Department of Homeland Security, has repeatedly published data showing that 70 percent of the people that have been deported had other criminal records. They have said this on the record time and again. I don't know about the Cato --
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: Hold on a minute. Here's the thing though. The thing is that you take whatever DHS says as truth, as the Bible.
JENNINGS: They published the list.
NAVARRO: Okay, yes, but that doesn't mean anything, Scott. These are the same people who told us that the people they had sent to that hell hole in El Salvador were the worst and the worst, they were gang members. And when independent journalists found out their names, which they did not release and went through the records and the names, most of the people that were sent to El Salvador were not Tren de Aragua, were not gang members, and did not have violent records.
These are the same people who lie constantly. These are the same people who said that a Cuban man who just died in ICE detention committed suicide when the medical examiner in Texas is saying, ruled it a homicide. They lie time and time again. And then, and you come here and you repeat the lies.
JENNINGS: Just today, 4,000 people, they put out the list, in Minnesota had been taken off the streets, criminals, violent rapists, murderers, pedophiles, people who have done very, very bad things. They're not backing down here.
NAVARRO: Five-year-old, seven-year-old U.S. citizens. There's 3,800 children under detention.
PHILLIP: I'm going to let Brianna have a word, but I just want to make a note about the list that they've been releasing out of Minneapolis and Minnesota. Some of those are people that were detained long ago. Some of them are people who were transferred directly into ICE custody, which is something that the administration claims doesn't happen, but it actually does. So, it's a mixed list of people who are being detained, yes. But not all of them have been detained in this extraordinary surge that has caused all of this upheaval in Minnesota.
BRIANNA LYMAN, REPORTER, THE FEDERALIST: I wanted to go back to something you said, Bakari. It seems that the topic of this conversation right now is whether J.D. Vance should have apologized or taken back labeling Pretti as an assassin, because, you know, some say that he jumped to conclusions. You just accuse ICE agents and Border Patrol of murder. Aren't you going to say like, why don't we wait for the investigation? Like don't you want to also wait for the investigation instead of prematurely -- a homicide doesn't mean murder. Homicide includes two people who were involved in a killing.
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: What does homicide mean?
SELLERS: Yes. Well, murder is --
PHILLIP: Let's let Bakari respond to the question.
SELLERS: Murder actually requires a malice of forethought. And so, yes, I'm not going to back -- I'm not going to back --
LYMAN: So, you are --
SELLERS: So, you asked question. You're going to -- you asked me a question I'm going to answer. And so, no, I'm not going to back away from the fact that what I saw with my own eyes were two people who were murdered in the street.
The reason I say that is based upon my lived experience. The reason I say that is because I'm in courtrooms around the country and I actually deal with people like the families of Renee Good, like the families of Alex Pretti, like the families of Keith Porter.
And one of the things that I can tell you is when an officer comes up, and even if you are a lawful gun owner and an officer -- if you get into a skirmish with an officer, many times, if they shoot you, that is a murder. You know why? Because in this country, in the United States of America, resisting arrest, you know what, that's not a death penalty crime.
LYMAN: No. Trying to run someone over with your car is a crime.
SELLERS: Yes, but that's not --
LYMAN: That's what Renee Good did. Pretti?
PHILLIP: All right. One of the other --
LYMAN: Yes, she did. She accelerated. I mean, Elie Honig has been on the show and also said that he says it's very clear that it looked like she was doing that. So, there are people on both sides of the aisle who have objectively said, look --
TANDEN: It's not a both sides issue. It's not a both sides issue.
LYMAN: Well, you're calling it a murder, so it is actually both sides issue when you're preemptively jumping to conclusions that these agents murdered someone when, for example, in the Renee Good case, there's a lot of dispute.
SELLERS: Can I just ask you a basic humanity question here? I mean, just we can get to the -- we don't have to talk legally in front of all the people watching the show tonight. Do you believe Renee Good and Alex Pretti should be alive today?
LYMAN: Of course, I wish they didn't put themselves in these positions.
SELLERS: No. It was a yes or no question.
LYMAN: Yes.
SELLERS: Yes?
LYMAN: Of course.
SELLERS: I mean, okay.
LYMAN: I wish they didn't put themselves in this position.
SELLERS: But it's not a caveat. That's your First Amendment.
TANDEN: You are much harsher than --
LYMAN: Someone run over with their car?
[22:15:00]
That's not a First Amendment right.
SELLERS: First of all, he put him -- there is such thing as officers who actually put themselves in the line of danger, Jeff Alper, who is an expert on criminal justice, actually had a quote in The New York Times that said he put himself in the realm of danger. If you look frame by frame, she didn't try to hit him.
But, look, she should be alive today. That officer was more than reckless. I believe that --
LYMAN: she was reckless by trying to accelerate her car into a human.
TANDEN: but I just point out that Donald Trump himself says he is actually in a very different position than you. Today, he said they shouldn't have been killed. Basically, that's what he said.
LYMAN: They should be alive.
TANDEN: And he did not say, they shouldn't have been there. He said this shouldn't have happened. And the fact that you can't say those basic things, it shouldn't have happened --
LYMAN: I just said that it shouldn't have happened.
TANDEN: Yes, they were blaming them. And Donald Trump did not blame them. He basically said, ICE officials shouldn't have done this, and you were saying that they were responsible. I think that's --
SELLERS: What did Keith Porter do? What did Alex Pretti do?
TANDEN: Ten bullets in his back and he's responsible?
SELLERS: Let's not back off of it. What did they do to say that today is the day that I'm going to die? What did Aliya Rahman do? Instead of just going to her appointment? Are you familiar with Aliya Rahman? She testified today she's the person who is disabled, who ICE actually took a knife and cut her seatbelt and drag her out of her car.
Like there is a level of humanity that I think you're missing when I ask you a yes or no question, and your answer is, yes, but. The but negates everything forward and everything behind it.
LYMAN: No, it doesn't.
SELLERS: That's actually what but does.
LYMAN: No. But -- and this --
TANDEN: Absolutely.
SELLERS: That's literally what but does.
NAVARRO: And English is my second language and even I know that.
JENNINGS: But would you advise someone, even if they're very angry, even if they don't like the laws, to insert themselves into the middle of an active law enforcement situation?
SELLERS: If they see something wrong, absolutely.
JENNINGS: You would advise a person or a client of yours to literally engage in the middle of an active law enforcement matter?
SELLERS: If they see something wrong, I would say yes. I would say, definitely, put your --
JENNINGS: That's a crime.
SELLERS: I would say --
(CROSSTALKS)
JENNINGS: You're advising people to commit crimes.
NAVARRO: Do you consider filming with a phone --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second, guys, just one at a time.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Just to be extremely clear, just to be extremely clear, because I know how these things get clipped and shipped around on Twitter, what I'm actually telling you, Scott, is if my client came to me and said, Bakari, I was outside and I saw something going down and I saw somebody being abused and I went and tried to put myself in between them, or I raised the camera, do not hit officers, do not spit on officers. But, yes, by all means, if you see something wrong, videotape it.
I mean, I can't sit here. My dad was a member of SNICK (ph), right? He was a professional disruptor. JENNINGS: Holding a camera is different than inserting yourself or inserting your vehicle in the middle of a law enforcement --
PHILLIP: Well, hold on. I mean, I think -- but, Scott, what was Pretti doing in the moment that he was assaulted by assault ICE officer?
SELLERS: What was Keith Porter doing?
JENNINGS: I mean, he was engaging with law enforcement officers. He was within inches of them.
PHILLIP: No, he wasn't.
JENNINGS: Yes, he was. There was a scrum.
PHILLIP: Hold on. What was he doing? What exactly was he doing?
JENNINGS: He was engaging in the middle of a law enforcement situation.
PHILLIP: Do you remember that he was recording?
JENNINGS: That doesn't absolve of --
PHILLIP: No. I'm talking -- hold on a second. I'm talking frame by frame. He stepped to help the woman who was on the ground. He stood up, they pepper sprayed him. He put his hands up. He had just been pepper sprayed and then they tackled him.
SELLERS: Can I ask a better question?
PHILLIP: So, what did he do?
SELLERS: No. Can I ask this one question?
PHILLIP: How did he insert himself?
SELLERS: You asked a great question. I mean, let me ask you a question. All of those things that you said are a crime. Which one of those things that you enumerated as a death penalty, crime punished by death, that can require you to be gunned down in the street? Which one of those things?
JENNINGS: Nothing requires you to be gunned down in the street, Bakari. My only point is that you have ordinary people who are being trained or instructed to go into the middle of active law enforcement zones, and that is extremely unwise. It's extremely unwise.
NAVARRO: You keep wanting to paint them as trained agitators.
(CROSSTALKS)
NAVARRO: People in this country who are willing to be outraged, protest against Donald Trump --
JENNINGS: If you insert your body and yourself into the middle of law enforcement situation, it's dangerous.
NAVARRO: It is not inserting yourself --
PHILLIP: We really have to go, guys. We are way past our time here. We do have to move on.
(CROSSTALKS)
TANDEN: (INAUDIBLE) left of both of these guys today. That's what's interesting.
PHILLIP: All right, we'll leave it there.
Next for us, as Donald Trump threatens to nationalize elections. Steve Bannon is calling on ICE to surround the polls during the midterms, something that Democrats have been warning about.
Plus, the president tonight says that he doesn't know why Tulsi Gabbard went to the FBI raid at an election office, even though he directly ordered her to do that. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, as Donald Trump seeks to federalize elections, his former White House chief strategist says he should take it a step further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: You're damn right. We're going to have ICE surround the polls come November. We're not going to sit here and allow you to steal the country again. And you can throw -- you can whine and cry and throw your toys out of the pram all you want, but we will never again allow an election to be stolen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I'm old enough to remember when many Democrats were warning of this exact thing, Brianna. Now you have, you know, Steve Bannon saying it, you have Trump saying he wants to federalize elections, he wants federal agents to count votes. What are we to make of all of this?
LYMAN: Well, I think given that under Joe Biden, we had millions of illegal aliens come in. It's definitely fair to be worried that there could be non-citizens voting.
[22:25:03]
We know that non-citizen voting does happen, even if it is rare, according to some on the left.
PHILLIP: How frequent is it?
LYMAN: Well, if you want a list, I actually have some for you. Hold on one second.
SELLERS: Yes, please.
PHILLIP: Like actual numbers?
LYMAN: Yes.
TANDEN: You get just like six or seven --
SELLERS: Or people. I know.
LYMAN: I actually wanted to have a lot of quotes for you guys. All right, here we go. So, a Georgia audit found 20 non-citizens registered to vote, nine of them ended up voting in a previous election.
PHILLIP: 20?
SELLERS: Yes.
LYMAN: Let me finish. In Michigan --
TANDEN: (INAUDIBLE) many years?
LYMAN: You know, it's funny when you guys mock small amounts, but let's remember that Marionette Miller Meeks won her 2020 election by six votes. Imagine if there were six fraudulent votes.
PHILLIP: Were they six undocumented immigrants?
TANDEN: No, they weren't.
LYMAN: My point is that some elections are decided quite literally on the margin. So, every vote counts.
PHILLIP: But not a single presidential election has been decided by margin of non-citizen voters.
LYMAN: Can I finish a point? That doesn't -- just because it doesn't impact a presidential election, it does not mean that it is not worthy of attention.
PHILLIP: What is the percentage of fraudulent, non-citizen voting in America?
LYMAN: I don't have the percentage, but I have more examples, if you guys would've cut me off. Let me just finish, exactly.
SELLERS: I don't know if they exist.
LYMAN: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. 41 non-citizens cast ballot in North Carolina in 2016. 1,500 foreigners registered to vote in California by the state DMV. They were not citizens in 2018.
PHILLIP: Oh, did they -- and were they caught?
TANDEN: Did they vote?
PHILLIP: Did they vote?
LYMAN: They're just registered to vote. That doesn't mean that --
(CROSSTALKS)
LYMAN: 18 U.S. Code Section 1015 Subsection F says that anyone who knowingly makes a false statement when registering to vote can get jail time?
PHILLIP: Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I wanted you to go through it because I think it illustrates in and of itself how actually incredibly rare this is, and even when, you know, the Heritage Foundation went looking for non-citizens voting over the course of, what was it, ten years, ten-plus years. They found 77 cases --- actually more than ten years, about 24 years. They found 77 instances of non-voters voting, and they went looking, okay?
So, listen, if this were about people, non-citizens voting, maybe that's the case, then please help me explain why Trump is still obsessed with Georgia, where he was looking for 11,000 votes, where Georgia, they've got voter I.D., they've got tough voting laws? Why is he saying the Georgia was a fraudulent state that he actually won when he did not?
JENNINGS: Yes, that's what he believes. I mean, he says the things that he believes, and obviously now there's a federal and investigation going on.
PHILLIP: Is he right or is he wrong?
JENNINGS: I don't know. There's an investigation that a federal judge signed off on, so we'll find out.
PHILLIP: Scott, you don't know? Scott, you used to know.
TANDEN: Yes, you used to know it.
JENNINGS: Is he right or is he wrong about --
PHILLIP: About fraud in Georgia, that he whether he won or he lost Georgia?
JENNINGS: All the evidence we have right now is that Georgia was not fraudulent. However, my point was that a federal judge just signed off on a warrant to go get evidence and now there's an investigation going on. That was my point.
LYMAN: Well, to Scott's point really quickly, we do have evidence in Georgia, and I know people don't want me to cite my own reporting, so I will cite The Atlanta Journal Constitution because it is left wing. We know that during -- we know that during the 2020 recount, 3,000 ballots were scanned twice. The secretary of state's office cannot confirm if those were counted, though election integrity activists say they were counted. We know during the audit of the 2020 presidential election, there were, quote, several cases in which election workers mistyped vote totals or allocated votes to the wrong candidate. The state election board gave a slap on the wrist. We know that governor --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Well, Brianna, let me just -- let's just -- we'll move on from this for a second, but I just want to just ask you a question. How many times did they recount the ballots in Georgia?
LYMAN: I think it was three.
PHILLIP: I think it was six. So, they have not only counted the ballots but they recounted them many, many times. The Trump campaign had opportunities to challenge --
LYMAN: (INAUDIBLE) doesn't mean anything.
PHILLIP: Hold on. The Trump campaign had opportunities to challenge this in the courts. They lost. The governor, a Republican, said there was no fraud in the election. The lieutenant governor said there was no -- a Republican -- said there was no fraud in the election. The secretary of state, a Republican, said there was no fraud in the election.
So, I don't want people to come away from this exchange with even the slightest inkling despite what you are reading there, that there was any fraud, because that has been completely and totally --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Let me tell you what it is. Let me tell you what it is.
LYMAN: I'm not going to respond.
SELLERS: Well, let me also respond.
LYMAN: Not to you, sorry.
SELLERS: The AJC is not a left wing rag. In fact, Greg Bluestein, who's their national political reporter, is just an awesome, awesome journalist, and that just has to be said because local journalism is like really what we have going for us in this country. That's just a side note, a point of personal privilege.
What we're seeing right now is fascism. We're seeing fascism at play. What we're doing is we're seeing somebody who is the head of a party that is just magnanimous and people are gravitating toward him. He's using military in the streets like fascists do. He's actually suppressing voices, arresting Don Lemon, making sure that his FCC chair pushes Jimmy Kimmel off, and now he's talking about suppressing opposition voices by actually surrounding polling sites with ICE.
[22:30:05]
That literally is the definition of fascism. But with that being said, Democrats have to see what is happening. The mayors of the city of Detroit, Mary Sheffield, the mayors of Milwaukee, the mayors of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Clark County, where you have these swing states, need to make sure that they're doing everything they can to protect their institutions, protect their voting centers, and make sure that they are securing that from outside interference.
Well, listen, there's two things. One is Donald Trump, because he is a little man with a frail ego, cannot stand the fact that he lost. So he is trying to rewrite history, whether it's Minnesota, whether it's Georgia.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Can I make --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's two things -- two things. One is, Donald Trump, because he is a man with -- little man with frail ego cannot stand the fact that he lost. So, he is trying to rewrite history, whether it's in Minnesota, whether it's Georgia.
He's probably in a padded room somewhere with the ballots they took from Georgia, circling them for him right now because he is hell-bent and thinks he can rewrite history, whether it's January 6th, whether it's the election. He can't stand the idea that his obituary is going to say that he lost in 2020. In the same way, he can't stand having lost the Nobel Peace Prize. And the second thing is --
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Hold on.
NAVARRO: -- they are afraid of losing in the midterms. That's why they are trying to change the voting maps, the districting. That's why they are trying to scare people. My prediction is that these threats are going to piss people off, piss voters off, and more people are going to show up to vote because they will not let themselves be intimidated and frightened by this stuff.
PHILLIP: All right. Quick word. Yes.
TANDEN: I don't think it's an accident that Republicans lost a race in Texas by 30 points. It swung 30 points away from them. They lost by 15. It had been 15 points gain. They lost Latinos, et cetera. And a few days later, Donald Trump is talking about nationalizing our elections.
Now, I don't know why anyone's listening to Steve Bannon, given his latest forays in the Epstein files, but we should listen to Donald Trump. And Donald Trump should be a concern to everyone, because remember what happened last, last time. Everyone said, don't worry what he says, and then we had the insurrection on January 6th.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, tempers, shouting matches, and insults. In the middle of a fiery hearing with Scott Bessent, the Treasury Secretary, issuing new blame for the economy's troubles, we'll debate next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:36:59]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: Ten and 20 million immigrants
(CROSSTALK)
BESSENT: -- took up the housing stock of working Americans, and can you maintain some level of dignity?
UNKNOWN: The gentleman's time has expired.
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): No, my time has not expired.
UNKNOWN: Your time has expired, and the gentleman ==
WATERS: The gentleman took up my time. Mr., I think you should recognize that, Mr. Chair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: All right. Well, by now, you've probably seen a lot of those clips go viral of Democrats yelling at the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent. But in one answer, Bessent gave this defense for America's economic troubles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BESSENT: The mass unfettered immigration, adding 10 to 20 million new people demanding housing, Congresswoman, is what caused a great deal of housing inflation for working Americans. So, you and the Biden administration should be ashamed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not the first time that the Trump administration, across the Cabinet, it seems, has decided to blame immigrants for all of the troubles that the United States faces, Ana.
NAVARRO: I think he's right. It's all the immigrants from New York and California moving to Miami that have increased the house prices to the level where average Miamians can't afford it. Look, I, you know, I watched some of these clips. I found that the entire thing on both sides, the people asking the questions and Scott Bessent being as flippant as he was, I just think it's such a disservice to democracy.
These congressional hearings have become so performative, whether it's Republicans running them or Democrats running them, I can barely stand to see it. I think the cost -- you know, every study, every economic study shows that the cost of immigrants is less than what they contribute to the economy because they take in, they use less services. I also know that there's a lot of immigrants who work in the
construction industry, who work in building houses and who work in doing jobs that are essential for our economy. When a lot of us were locked up during COVID, it was a bunch of immigrants doing things that nobody else wanted to risk their lives doing.
SELLERS: Scott Bessent is a unique figure in the American political arena. Being from South Carolina, the best way I can describe Scott Bessent is like, bless your heart, because he doesn't necessarily fit into the same category. And I am opposed to putting him in the same category as a Stephen Miller, or a Donald Trump, or a J.D. Vance, or somebody.
He approaches it more with substance and style, but he's really, really out of touch. This is the same Scott Bessent who went to Davos and said that retirees are buying five, 10, 12 homes. What the hell is he talking about? Like, that doesn't happen with average Americans around the country.
And so, when you see a spat back and forth with him and Maxine Waters, I think what you're seeing and what you're outlining is that, yes, there's a disconnect between what's happening in Washington, D.C., with what's happening on Main Street. And I think that Ana is actually right.
[22:40:00]
That goes on -- that rest in the laps of both parties. And that's something that we have to grapple with.
PHILLIP: So, well, to Ana's point about the immigration piece --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: They fight more than this panel.
PHILLIP: -- the Cato Institute -- the Cato Institute had a study out this week that said --
SELLERS: Not the Cato Institute. I just --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: -- that from, well, they got another one from them, " -- from 1994 to 2023, the U.S. immigrant population generated more in taxes than they received in benefits from all levels of government. Over that period, immigrants created a cumulative fiscal surplus of $14 trillion including $3.9 trillion in savings on the interest on debt. Without immigrants, the U.S. government's public debt at all levels would be at least 205 percent of gross domestic product, nearly twice its 2023 levels."
The facts are pretty clear. It's not just that. It's clear on education. It's clear on housing. It's laid out there. And yet the Trump administration, rather than addressing -- what voters want them to address, which is the economy, cost of living, they keep blaming immigrants for everything. Why?
LYMAN: Yes, before we get to that, I just want to correct the record really quickly. You did say that Governor Kemp and Brad Raffensperger both said the election was fine. I also just want to point out, people, that Governor Kemp did come out with a risk limiting audit report, which did clarify there were 36 inconsistencies. And Brad Raffensperger also clarified the 36 different boxes of inconsistencies.
SELLERS: Are we in the same show?
LYMAN: Hold on, hold on. I just want to make --
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Hold on. But was -- you're saying -- you're clarifying, did they say that there was -- that the election was fair and there was no fraud in it or not?
LYMAN: They're saying that there were problems in the election. Yes.
PHILLIP: Well, hold on. Hold on.
LYMAN: Yes, they're saying that.
PHILLIP: So, Governor Kemp said there were -- that is not true. Governor Kemp has --
LYMAN: According to his risk limiting auditing, there were 36 inconsistencies in a November 17, 2021 letter to the SEB. These are election inconsistencies found by Joseph Rossi.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
LYMAN: They were then tested and the veracity of his work was independently repeated. And they found out that all of the 36 claims were true.
PHILLIP: Hold on.
LYMAN: Now, for --
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on. You are trying to imply that Governor Kemp said that there were -- there was fraud in the 2020 election.
LYMAN: No, I didn't say fraud -- inconsistencies. I said inconsistencies.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He did not say that. He said it was a free and fair election. And on top of that, he also pointed out that there were elections that occurred after Donald Trump lost, and those elections were also free and fair. And not to mention that other Republicans who were on the very same ballot as Donald Trump did better than he did. So, whatever inconsistencies -- I'm not saying there are -- there is
nothing that is inconsistent about elections. That's why there are checks. That's why you go through them and you find them. The fact that they found those inconsistencies is actually proof that the system is working, okay?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, when you argue that there -- when you argue that the existence of errors is proof of fraud, that makes no sense because we should go back then and re-audit the Republicans who outperformed Trump on that very same ballot. How do you explain that?
LYMAN: I think, I think, wait, can I, can I, can I finish my answer report? I want to -- I want to answer your question about the economy.
PHILLIP: Yes, please do because we don't want to derail this segment by going back to something that was litigated six years ago.
LYMAN: Okay. Well, then I just highly recommend that people listen to Ann Brumbaugh, the attorney for Fulton County, who says that, yes, she confirms that.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Well, if I was allowed to answer the first time, last segment, I would have answered that question already. As for Scott, ask first --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Well, you can look up the November 17, 2021 letter. I can send it to you.
TANDEN: Okay, great.
LYMAN: As for Scott Bessent, with immigration, first and foremost, I thought this Cato Institute report was a little sloppy because they did not specify -- they did not differentiate between illegal aliens and legal immigrants, which I think is bad for them.
PHILLIP: Well, just to be clear, this --
LYMAN: How is it that every time I talk --
PHILLIP: Because you're saying something that's not true.
TANDEN: Yes.
PHILLIP: The report takes into consideration both legal and illegal, and they say in both cases -- in both cases, immigrants contribute more than they take away from the system. So, it does address that very thing that you're saying it doesn't address.
LYMAN: Right, right. But I'm saying that I think people would also like to see, regardless, just the separate numbers. That being said, I think what a lot of conservatives and MAGA people believe is America is not merely an economic opportunity zone. Even if all immigrants, if we brought in EIGHT billion people to America tomorrow and they boosted our GDP, we're still not taking into account what happens to culture, society, overpopulation, things like that.
And if illegal aliens or legal immigrants, however Cato wants to put these together, is like a cash cow, then you would see plenty of other countries around the world saying, come here, come here, come here, but they're not. So, to pretend like illegal aliens first and foremost -- so why isn't any other country taking all of our illegal aliens?
TANDEN: I mean, Canada is actually taking more immigrants.
LYMAN: Even their native countries don't want them back.
TANDEN: Can I just make one simple point about --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: I'm surprised --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: That's the legal term.
PHILLIP: Let me just say, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll come back on the other side, and I'll let you make your point. Hold your thought.
LYMAN: It's a legal term.
PHILLIP: We'll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:39]
PHILLIP: Back to our immigration conversation, Neera, you were saying.
TANDEN: I was just saying that essentially, I think what's happening here with blaming immigrants is really to hide responsibility, and that actually came out in the hearing. The whole question was, are the tariffs increasing the costs? And we know the tariffs are increasing costs by $17,000 for every new home, and 450,000 homes will not be built because of the tariffs.
[22:50:03]
So, I actually think that entire exchange was entirely because they're defensive on tariffs.
PHILLIP: Scott?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I would ask if you know how much housing costs went up during the Biden years. TANDEN: It went up significantly.
JENNINGS: Significantly, so --
TANDEN: But why add -- why add to them by adding tariffs? It didn't go down in the last year. They're actually raising the costs of tariffs.
PHILLIP: You're talking about due to interest rates. You mean like buying a home? Is that what you're talking about?
JENNINGS: Yes. Prices of housing went up 20, 30 percent during the four years that Joe Biden was in. Some of the arguments we're having about housing in the United States and how expensive it is, the bulk of it came while Biden was President. What Scott Bessent is saying is objectively true. We do have a housing shortage in this country.
So, we already have too few domiciles for the people who are here. His point was simply that if you put 10 or 20 million new people into the pool, whether they're illegal or not, that is going to increase competition for the already short supply of housing.
TANDEN: But the cities, we have the sharpest increase in housing. Places like Los Angeles did not have net new immigrant migration in those three years. There's no correlation between them.
PHILLIP: There has been a study that actually looked at what happened as a result of the increase in immigration during the Biden years, and that study found that actually, housing costs went down in that period of time. "After immigration ramped up in 2022, growth rates of housing prices and rents slowed substantially. By 2023, as the surge in immigration continued, home prices fell even further while rent rent growth completely stalled."
JENNINGS: So, prices going down is different than the rate of increase going down. I mean, it was a massive increase in housing costs.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on, wait, hold on. Are you saying that housing got more expensive or it got less expensive?
JENNINGS: During the Biden years, housing got dramatically more expensive.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, so that study that actually looked at the real numbers said that even while there was massive, to your point, immigration into this country, maybe legal and illegal, housing prices, rent went down. Housing prices went down.
JENNINGS: No, that's not what it says, Abby. You said the rate went down. That's different than saying the price went down. But during the Biden years PHILLIP: Okay.
JENNINGS: -- we had a spike.
PHILLIP: Sure.
JENNINGS: But look, let me just -- let me just broaden the point.
PHILLIP: But Scott, I mean, but I don't understand.
JENNINGS: The point is --
PHILLIP: The rate of housing increases going down still doesn't prove your point. If you -- if you're claiming that immigration is driving a faster growth in prices, it doesn't help your point that the rate slowed down.
JENNINGS: I will tell you what my point is. My point is this. If you already have a shortage of something and you add 20 million people who are trying to get that something --
PHILLIP: I guess what I'm asking for --
JENNINGS: --necessarily, you're going to have a problem. Number two --
PHILLIP: I guess what I'm asking for is actual proof of that being.
TANDEN: There's no correlation between the increases.
SELLERS: But I think --
JENNINGS: -- if you have more people trying to buy fewer commodities --
PHILLIP: Listen, I'm asking you, is there proof that what you are saying actually happened? Because the immigrants came.
SELLERS: But no, no, no.
PHILLIP: The prices were what they were.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: I think that Scott is actually right on the 50,000 point view. I think -- 50,000 foot view. That is actually true, the reason that we have a supply problem in this country.
JENNINGS: Correct.
SELLERS: The only way that we make houses more affordable is by doing something that Kamala Harris said that actually Donald Trump kind of repeated and stole, which is to increase the supply. That is a fact. You have to increase the supply. And one of the things that that also means is that we actually have to have fair share independence. We have to have a lot of other things that Donald Trump's not doing. But the reason that we have the supply issue is not because of immigrants. That's what I think people are missing.
NAVARRO: Donald Trump is actually very happy about housing prices going up. It's one of the things that people can boast about.
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: But actually, the demand is not in places where the immigrants are. That's like the challenge here. I mean, I'm sorry. Los Angeles did not have -- Los Angeles and San Francisco -- there's -- that's true. They are good examples. Los Angeles have the largest share. Phoenix had large increases. They did not have net increases in immigrants, undocumented or legal immigrants in those periods.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps, "Freestyle" edition. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:18]
PHILLIP: Brianna, you're first. Just days away from Olympic competition in Milan, a Spanish figure skater has been cleared to use the music from the movie "Minions" after being in copyright limbo for a while. So, tonight on their news nightcap, our panel is going to tell us what song they would pick for their freestyle routine. Brianna, you're up first.
LYMAN: I would go with "Don't Stop Me Now" by Queen. I feel like that gets everyone pumped for something. You know, you start kind of slow and then you just build up to this great chorus.
PHILLIP: It's a great song.
TANDEN: "I'm Still Standing" by Elton John. You know, I think a classic. And, you know, also gets people revved up.
PHILLIP: Can I just say across generations, my four-year-old is obsessed with that song because of singing --
UNKNOWN: Oh, yes.
PHILLIP: Anyway, yes, it's a huge thing. All right. Go ahead, Ana.
NAVARRO: Well, you know, this is Bad Bunny week. There's -- I'm sure you all have heard that there's going to be a football game at the Bad Bunny --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: -- this Sunday.
PHILLIP: If you couldn't tell from the --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can we zoom out on the Bad Bunny swag? NAVARRO: I'm here for Bad Bunny. Right.
PHILLIP: Anyway, continue.
NAVARRO: My song would be one which I think Bad Bunny is going to sing this weekend and it is "Cafe con Ron".
(SINGING IN SPANISH)
PHILLIP: All right, Bakari. And you have to sing, too, by the way.
SELLERS: Oh, yes, because I am going to show up in my boxers a lot like Justin did this weekend, shirt off. And in the city, well, yes, okay.
(SINGING)
In the city, remember, I used to drive a Yukon. I pick up whenever you call in the parking lot in Tucson. You all don't know?
TANDEN: Yes. I do know. Good. It was good.
PHILLIP: I'm going to give you credit for actually singing. Good job, Bakari.
SELLERS: There you go.
PHILLIP: All right.
SELLERS: Top that, Scott.
PHILLIP: Scott.
[23:00:00]
JENNINGS: I will not be topping that. "Mr. Blue Sky" by ELO. It's an upbeat song. I like it because it's the opening song to "Guardians of the Galaxy 2". I think it's one of the greatest opening of the superhero movies. So, I'm a big "Mr. Blue Sky" fan. It would be hard to hide sloppy edges or hesitation with that music going on in your figure skating routines.
SELLERS: Oh, wow.
PHILLIP: Sloppy edges.
SELLERS: He was deep in the --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He's a tough customer.
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: Yes.
PHILLIP: All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
