Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
U.S. Military Blockade Of Strait of Hormuz Is Now Underway; New York Times Reports, U.S. Rejects Iran's Offer To Suspend Nuclear Activity For Five Years; Trump Deletes Post Depicting Him As Jesus Amid Backlash; Trump Escalates Feud With Pope Leo XIV; Hungary Welcomes New Leader; Swalwell Denies Sexual Assault Allegations. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 13, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, we don't need the strait, help with the strait, open the strait, close the strait. Donald Trump's war takes a dangerous new turn.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We can't let a country blackmail or extort the world.
PHILLIP: Plus, from blasphemous to the anti-Christ, backlash forces the president to delete a post likening himself to Jesus.
TRUMP: It's supposed to be me as a doctor making people better.
PHILLIP: Also --
POPE LEO XIV: I have no fear of the Trump administration.
PHILLIP: The pope refuses to back down as Trump refuses to let up.
TRUMP: Pope Leo said things that are wrong. I think he's very weak on crime.
PHILLIP: And --
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Go to the polls in the weekend, stand with Viktor Orban.
PHILLIP: -- they did it. After another loss, is the far right nationalist movement dying around the world?
Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Noah Rothman, Leigh McGowan, Hal Lambert, Margaret Donovan, and Father Edward Beck.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
The U.S. military is now enforcing what could be its most dangerous phase in the war against Iran so far. That is blocking all traffic entering and leaving Iranian ports in an effort to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. At least 15 naval ships are now in the region as Trump threatens to eliminate any Iranian vessel that comes close to the blockade.
The operation began after 21 hours of peace talks between the U.S. and Iran collapsed over this weekend, and the main sticking points were that the White House says Iran refused to forego its nuclear ambition. Sources tell CNN that there are discussions for a second round of in- person talks before the two-week ceasefire expires next week. Vice President JD Vance says whether those talks happen though is up to Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: We must have their conclusive commitment to not develop a nuclear weapon. And I think that if the Iranians are willing to meet us there, then this can be a very, very good deal for both countries. If they're not willing to meet us there, that's up to them. That's their decision. And, really, the ball is very much in their court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In the meantime with no deal in hand, the future of this war remains an open question as Trump goes back and forth and back on the strait.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They should come and they should help us protect it.
You know, we don't use the strait, we don't -- the United States, we don't need it.
They have to open it up. They have to open up the strait of Trump -- I mean, Hormuz.
What happens with the strait, we're not going to have anything to do with it.
When this conflict is over, the strait will open up naturally.
REPORTER: Are you willing to make a deal that does not include reopening the Strait of Hormuz, or is that now a top priority?
TRUMP: I would say it's a very big priority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It may have been a big priority for the president leading up to the talks, but it sounds like the talks this weekend were centered on what they always are centered on, which is whether Iran's going to have a nuclear weapon. The Times is reporting that Iran said that they would suspend uranium enrichment for up to five years, but the Trump administration rejected that offer. They insisted on a 20-year window. CNN is reporting as well that 20-year window.
Margaret does this sound like a negotiation that would result in a permanent taking off the table of nuclear weapons?
MARGARET DONOVAN, FORMER ARMY JAG: I don't think so. I'm a little bit pessimistic that we can get to that. I think that we had as close as we could get in the JCPOA a few years ago, and I think any rational actor would say, forget about Iran, forget about geopolitics. Anybody making a deal with somebody else would say, why would I cut a deal with you? You just ripped up the one we worked so hard to do in the past? So, I think that it makes sense that it's going to be more difficult.
I do want to say one point about the Strait of Hormuz. I think that's a little bit misguided to think that this is basically a bargaining trip that Iran can now suddenly open the strait. I think that's actually totally impractical because we've learned that Iran has mined the strait illegally, by the way, and lost track of those minds, which means that it's basically impossible for them to reopen the strait.
[22:05:02]
It's effectively self-blockaded. We can blockade Iranian ports, but that only does so much when you have to get through the Strait of Hormuz geographically to begin with. So, that's going to require a multinational coalition to actually demine the strait.
PHILLIP: Yes, the risk is there regardless. Noah?
NOAH ROTHMAN, SENIOR WRITER, NATIONAL REVIEW: I mean, there is obviously some mining in the strait, not nearly the degree to which we anticipated that there would and war gaming in this and in 1987, '88, when they did, and their channels are in use. They're not mining their own traffic channels.
So, what happened over the weekend was, as these negotiations were ongoing, the United States introduced two Arleigh Burke-class destroyers clearing out their own strait, according to Brad Cooper at CENTCOM, introducing underwater drones to clear out these mines. So, they're engaging while the ceasefire's ongoing in threat-clearing operations.
And then on top of that, this very medium risk, but high reward blockade strategy, which is designed to cut off all revenue to the about $450 million that they generate on. It's a daily basis from traffic in and out of Iran. And it's just Iranian ports.
So, the idea is they have about 13 days worth of oil that they can, you know, store, at which point they have to start cutting off their own oil-generating plants and fields. And that is going to put a lot of financial pressure on this regime. At the start of the weekend, we were hearing that Donald Trump was ready to bug out, that he was done with this, he was looking for an off-ramp anyway, he was going to get it, and he had to give away the story. And that's just not what happened.
DONOVAN: But I think it also kind of puts us on a collision course with whatever the first vessel is that we're going to blockade, right? Because it's going to be some third party country, and then we're going to have a showdown. So, I think that's a very risky possible elevation.
ROTHMAN: Two, two Chinese who have already interdicted to.
DONOVAN: Yes, so, right. I mean, I don't think we're going to be sinking Chinese ships.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But the Chinese also responded and said very clearly today this is Iranian Strait, this is their property, they control it.
The other thing is the two vessels that you talked about, we did send them in, but this goes to the happenstance portion of this war that we're in because these vessels that we sent in, they're not even built to do the work that we sent them to do.
DONOVAN: That's exactly right.
SELLERS: So, when you're talking about, yes, we sent in two vessels, I mean, of course, to the audience, it sounds good. And then you flip the page and you say, look, they're not even built to do this type of work. They don't have that capacity, they don't have that capability.
And it goes to the fact that a lot of people watching believe that this is a war of happenstance. This is a war of how Donald Trump feels the next day, and the next day this was not game out.
You talked about war games. This is just -- I mean, this is a game of checkers to him, where the rest of the world is playing some type of 3D, 4D chess, because we actually are losing --
HAL LAMBERT, FOUNDER AND CEO, POINT BRIDGE CAPITAL: The rest of the world's not playing at all. I mean, what are you talking about they're playing 3D chess?
SELLERS: The rest of the world --
LAMBERT: The rest of the world's not playing in this game and --
SELLERS: 20 percent of the world's oil comes through --
LAMBERT: Yes, but they're not involved. You're saying they're playing 3D chess. They're not involved in what's happening.
PHILLIP: Yes. What do you mean by that, Bakari?
SELLERS: Because, first of all, you do understand that sometimes when people decide not to get engaged in a war, that is an action. Acquiescence is an act.
LAMBERT: They don't have the ability to get engaged. So, let's just --
SELLERS: But wait one second, one second to answer that --
LAMBERT: Europe doesn't have a military --
SELLERS: But did you not -- let me ask a question. Did Donald Trump -- one second on, because you're beating me up on this point. Did Donald Trump ask for help on the Strait of Hormuz, and did they not say no, the rest of the world? They said, we are not engaging in that. And by taking that act, by acquiescing and saying, we are not engaging in that, they are leaving the United States alone, that by itself is an act.
PHILLIP: Okay. Hal?
LAMBERT: Yes. I would just say this. Look, Iran is not a conventional negotiation adversary, okay? They're just not. They have a martyr mindset. They've been doing terrorism around the world for 48 years. They're not interested in negotiating. They're interested in stalling. Because what they want to do is drag this out, play the media in the United States against the Trump administration and hope that they can win that way.
And that's what they want to do. Trump's not going to let them do it. This is going to have to be resolved much more quickly. He's not going to play these negotiations that go on weeks and weeks and weeks, just like he did in this time. He said, nope, day into it, we're done.
PHILLIP: But if Trump really -- you're partly right about the Iranians feeling like time is on their side, but I think the question that I have is what is the, or else? You said that Trump is not going to allow them to drag out the negotiations. Well, we've already seen that despite the walking away and the drama of this weekend, they're still at the negotiating table with Iran. So, the negotiations are kind of dragging out and --
LAMBERT: But the or else is no more oil revenue. That's what's about to happen.
PHILLIP: What is the -- what do you mean no more?
LAMBERT: They're going to shut down Iran's ability to get revenue.
SELLERS: Wasn't it about the nuclear issues?
PHILLIP: Well, hold on one second. I mean, I think that that might be the case, but they might also have to shut down all the oil coming out of the Strait of Hormuz --
LEIGH MCGOWAN, PODCAST HOST, POLITICSGIRL: And it's just oil coming out of the Strait ofh Hormuz. It's fertilizer. It's helium. It's things that change the entire world economic order. Like I think we have to be really serious. There's a reason that Bakari's making that the world is turning its back on us right now, that they're saying we need the help, and they're like, no, this is a problem you made on your own. China was very clear saying, this is a problem you made on your own. NATO leaders with like Keir Starmer coming out being like, we are not joining in your blockade because the U.S. can't help -- can't make us manage their affairs.
[22:10:01]
Canada's prime ministers like, you know what, we're not going to send 70 cents of every dollar for our defense to the U.S. anymore. This isn't making any sense.
These choices that this administration is making doesn't make any sense and they're causing a crisis in the whole world. You were talking about these ships that are in there. They're not actually made --
LAMBERT: This has been the policy of every Democrat that's run for years.
MCGOWAN: I'm not talking about Democrats. I'm talking about what's happening in Iran right now, man. Listen, here's the thing --
LAMBERT: Exactly, and we stopped them from getting nuclear weapons.
MCGOWAN: We're talking about ships and how they don't have -- let me just finish. Let me just finish.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Let's just do this one at a time. Finish your thought.
MCGOWAN: These ships do not have, you said, the capacity or the capability to do the job that they've been put in to do. I believe that when we sent in the people to do the Iran negotiation, they did not have the capacity or the capability to do the job that they were meant to do. We sent in two real estate brokers and our vice president to do the negotiation. Then they left after 21 hours.
The last deal, correct me if I'm wrong, the one that we had with Obama was 18 months, they worked out the deal.
DONOVAN: Yes.
MCGOWAN: So, after 21 hours, J.D. Vance and Jared Kushner and Witkoff were like, well, peace out, we didn't get a deal.
PHILLIP: Hal, a quick response, and then Noah.
LAMBERT: Again, blaming the United States. That's what your entire --
MCGOWAN: We started the war, we caused the problem. The strait was open. The strait was open. Now, it's closed. Yes, it's our fault.
LAMBERT: It's been the policy of every president that's run and won that we were not going to let Iran get a nuclear weapon.
SELLERS: Correct. LAMBERT: Okay? And Trump decided to stop them from getting a nuclear weapon, and now everybody's up in arms on the Democrats' side.
MCGOWAN: Trump told us last June that he had gotten rid of all nuclear weapons. It's still on the White House website.
PHILLIP: Trump says he doesn't want Iran to ever have a nuclear weapon, but what we have learned about the negotiations this weekend is that, just like the JCPOA, it had a time horizon. So, where does that leave us?
ROTHMAN: Well, I don't know how to evaluate those reports. And they are just reports described to us from sources inside the administration. And we've had a lot of reports from sources inside the administration that haven't panned out. It's a war and it's not exactly clear what's going on.
However, (INAUDIBLE) first of all, two points. Hal's right about -- unfortunately about the British Navy. They dispatched a single destroyer to the Cypress. It took two weeks to get there. They had to return it to port pretty quickly. The British Navy's pretty innervated. As much as Keir Starmer wants to posture, he does lack the assets to do this kind of operation.
Second, the JCPOA allowed cascading centrifuges to exist. That's how they enrich uranium. Those are gone. What we have now are about 900 pounds of 60 percent enriched uranium. The idea is to squeeze them until they give it up. And they will engage in kinetic operations if Iran doesn't give up. But over the course of ceasefire, they're hoping to --
SELLERS: I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, I think the question that Abby asked was correct, and that was very exquisite, thank you. But at the end of the day, one of the things that the JCPOA did, and you're smarter than this than I am, is they made sure that, for 20 years, Iran wasn't able to enrich nuclear weapons. For 20 years, that was a sunset period on it.
PHILLIP: Well, there were several different --
DONOVAN: Iterations.
SELLERS: Iterations.
PHILLIP: Several different iterations of the timeframe.
SELLERS: And you also had to kind of trust but verify, make sure you had inspectors go in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We actually had a deal in place. We had a deal in place. Whether or not -- I think all of us around the table, contrary to what how you may want to say, all of us around the table actually agree with the underlying premise that Iran should never have access to a nuclear weapon, period. Nobody's debating that. The point I'm saying is that, right now, the Trump administration tore up the JCPOA and what the American public are seeing is that they're over there negotiating for the same things.
DONOVAN: And there's also -- there's just like an extreme lack of planning. So --
PHILLIP: This is the last word. Go ahead.
DONOVAN: You know, to your point, like we didn't have a backup plan. Obviously, nobody anticipated the Strait of Hormuz was going to be what it was. And just to the points about our ships and our capabilities, we actually decommissioned an entire class of mine sweepers that the U.S. Navy had that was stationed in Bahrain and it left Bahrain months before this war started, which tells you that the Department of Defense was not properly planning for this, or we would've kept minesweepers in the Persian Gulf. But that didn't happen.
So, there's -- this was -- we can be non-proliferation. We can try to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapon, but there are wrong ways to go about it, and I think there's been some wrong decisions made here.
PHILLIP: All right, we got to leave it there.
Next for us, Donald Trump says that it wasn't Jesus he was depicting. It was a doctor. Why his actions are being called blasphemous and a work of the anti-Christ.
Plus, the president gets into a war of words with the pope. Why Leo says that he refuses to back down against this administration. Another special guest is going to be with us at the table.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Tonight, an uncharacteristic move by President Trump after significant blowback from both the left and the right, he's now deleted this A.I.-generated post depicting himself as Jesus. But according to him, that isn't the likeness of Jesus. And he's surprised that anyone would think otherwise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It wasn't depiction. It was me. I did first it and I thought it was me as a doctor. And it had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross worker there, which we support. And only the fake news could come up with that one. So, I had -- I just heard about it and I said, how did they come up with that? It's supposed to be me as a doctor making people better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But tonight, Vice President, J.D. Vance had a different explanation. He said, Trump is just trying to be funny.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: I think the president was posting a joke, and, of course, he took it down because he recognized that a lot of people weren't understanding his humor in that case. I think the president of the United States likes to mix it up on social media, and I actually think that's one of the good things about this president is that he is not filtered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Father Edward Beck is here with us at the table.
[22:20:00]
Father Beck is this a funny joke? It seems like most people didn't take it that way.
FATHER EDWARD BECK, CHAPLAIN, MANHATTAN UNIVERSITY: Well, I think rightly so. What doctor have you ever seen with light waves coming out of his hands to heal someone and raised from heaven coming down blessing him in red and white garments? I mean, the president, I think, is being disingenuous, quite frankly, by saying he thinks it was a doctor's image he was posting. There's no Red Cross image in the photograph. There's an image of a nurse in a blue uniform, but nothing about the Red Cross. So, I just think all of his comments did not follow what everybody else saw.
And for J.D. Vance to say it was simply him being humorous, I think, well, which was it? If he was trying to be humorous, most people didn't get it. So, basically, we're blaming people for not getting his humor and the liberal media for not getting it? I just think you always put the blame somewhere else, but why not just say, look, I made a mistake. I posted the wrong thing. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it. I just think that would be more reasonable.
PHILLIP: He deleted it but then lied about it?
MCGOWAN: That's not who he is. I mean, I think we have to get to the point where we're like, when are the lies enough lies? When do the people of America who support this man say, this is enough lies? Like, quite clearly, everyone who's ever dressed up for Halloween knows if you're a doctor, you put on a white coat and a stethoscope, like that's the doctor costume, not the Jesus costume, which is what Donald Trump put himself out being. And it's putting himself in the place of God, not with God, in the place of God.
I think the bigger issue here is that Trump's behavior from the whole week is that he's not mentally fit to be in this position right now. He threatened 90 million people with instantaneous death. He's terrorizing the world. He's ruining the economy. He's basically said, we're going to get rid of a 6,000-year-old civilization. And then he went to an Ultimate Fighting Championship game to wave at people, right?
Like we can't pretend that this is okay, that America is the good guy in this situation. It's no longer even pretending that we represent freedom and justice or democracy in the world when we have this one man with unquestioned, unchecked power, acting however he wants, and then we try and make excuses for it after the fact. It's too much and we have to stop.
PHILLIP: So, Leigh is not the only person describing Trump's behavior recently as erratic. And the Times put it all together in a piece that says, Trump's erratic behavior and extreme comments revive mental health debate as the former president threatens to wipe out Iran, attacks the pope. Even some former allies and advisers are questioning whether he's grown increasingly unbalanced, describing him as lunatic and clearly insane.
And, look, let's take -- let's pretend that it's not Trump. If someone that you loved who is in a position of power, like a CEO or something, posted something like that, people would be calling and asking, are you okay?
LAMBERT: Well, I think what -- the reason Trump said that is because the person that originally posted it was I think February 6th, and he actually said he posted it because Trump is the doctor for the country. That's why he posted it out there.
Now, the image is obviously a problem, which is why President Trump pulled it down, but I believe President Trump probably didn't think of it as being Jesus at the time. He saw it as, oh, I'm healing the country, which is what --
PHILLIP: You believe that --
SELLERS: No, I believe that.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: I definitely believe it.
PHILLIP: You believe how you believe that he was depicting himself as a doctor?
LAMBERT: Well, that's what the original post was about. And so Trump re-tweeted it.
SELLERS: No, I believe, because I don't think Donald Trump knows who Jesus is. So, I honestly believe that he was confused. I mean, look, the fact that people can't call a spade a spade, like this was sacrilegious. I mean, there were people who gave Barack Obama hell for a tan suit and a selfie stick, and you have somebody out here who's mocking Jesus Christ and the Republican Party, GOP, they think they're God's only party anyway. They simply can't say our president messed up.
And then when Riley Gaines, who I don't agree with on much of nothing, Jason Whitlock, who I don't agree with them, absolutely anything, when they had the audacity to come out and chastise the president of the United States, he chastises them back.
LAMBERT: Yes, but he pulled it down. When you say he won't admit it, he did pull it back down.
MCGOWAN: But who's in charge of the man who's in charge of the free world if he can put out things and then be like, whoops, that we can't have someone in charge who can do that? He needs to at least have a team around him that can stop him from putting up the wrong thing.
LAMBERT: He's the president of the United States. He can put whatever he wants up. You're not in charge. You can't tell him what to do.
BECK: That's the attitude in the White House.
LAMBERT: But that's -- he can.
MCGOWAN: That's the problem.
PHILLIP: No, go ahead.
BECK: (INAUDIBLE) pushback though that he did it, it stayed up for 13 hours.
LAMBERT: Well, I'm wondering, she keeps saying, who's going to stop him from doing this?
MCGOWAN: Congress, the military.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But I think --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: No. I think -- oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. You've been trying to (INAUDIBLE) around here. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
ROTHMAN: I'm just confused as to what The New York Times is identifying as being odd behavior here. I mean, this is precisely how he has behaved for the last eight years, ten years. If you ask Republican voters back in the first term, the first thing they tell you they don't like about Donald Trump is the tweets back when it was Twitter, the tweets.
[22:25:07]
You can't count on 15 hands how many times his social media has gotten him in trouble and yet he can persist in part because this is something that --
PHILLIP: But don't you think on being --
ROTHMAN: No, it's not okay.
(CROSSTALKS)
ROTHMAN: And I wish they had a more disciplined (INAUDIBLE) the president would not be disciplined.
PHILLIP: I think you're right. Like, look, there's a polling earlier this year, 61 percent say that Trump doesn't share their values. 64 percent say he does not have the right temperament to be president. So, you're right, Americans see him for who he is.
But I think the right now is on the importance of the things that he's sending these messages about. It's not just calling his political opponent's names. He's threatening to wipe out a civilization in the middle of a war. And then he's getting into a tit-for-tat, which we'll talk more about in a little bit, with the pope, and then sending out an image that even his own supporters are saying, don't do that. I mean, Riley Gaines' comment was, a little humility would serve him well, God shall not be mocked. It's the why. It's the stuff that he's doing it on that makes a difference.
SELLERS: I think -- I do think there's a little --
PHILLIP: Let me just let, Noah, respond, please.
ROTHMAN: Well, I actually don't have much to say. I think you're everybody's right. I think Riley Gaines is right that we wish the president would exercise a little bit more discretion. He cannot do that. He refuses to do that. And then folks like J.D. Vance come around and say, well, this is what's best about him. It does fuel his ego.
SELLERS: I also think that we're not clearly acknowledging the fact that it's getting worse. And I had a great aunt, Jenny Marie, she was the matriarch of our family, and she was 88 years old and still driving. And then she used to come to church and park in the front. And then the day she hit the pastor's car, my dad had to go take away the keys, right, because it just progressively got worse.
LAMBERT: Is this going to be an Article 25 discussion again? You guys are talking about Article 25 --
SELLERS: No. What I'm also -- so I have two concerns. One is that the president, I believe, lacks discernment, and I think that's getting worse. The second thing is you won't call a spade a spade. And the fact that if you can't call what he did sacrilegious, which is clearly the definition of sacrilegious, I think that would be my second problem.
LAMBERT: Well, obviously I wouldn't have posted it out there, and I think President Trump realized he shouldn't and pulled it down.
SELLERS: But can you be critical of him?
PHILLIP: I also --
LAMBERT: Sure. I don't think you should posted it.
BECK: But why not apologize? Why not admit I did something?
PHILLIP: That's a very good question.
LAMBERT: I think part of it is in politics, when you start apologizing, you run into problems. And I think that's the issue.
PHILLIP: What? That is not -- okay just to be clear -- SELLERS: But in Christianity, when you start apologizing, you actually hope --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Just to be clear, it is not true that in politics, when you apologize, things start to go wrong, that the only person who believes that is Donald Trump and he is wrong about that. In politics, it is okay to acknowledge mistakes. That's actually what most politicians do. The fact that Trump doesn't do it is not a virtue, Hal. I mean, it's not a virtue.
And why, by the way, is it that Trump needs to post something first, see the backlash to realize that it was wrong?
LAMBERT: Well, as was said he's been posting now for 12 years.
PHILLIP: Yes. But does he have the judgment to know that it's wrong before he posts it?
LAMBERT: I think he does. I mean, this was done at, what, 3:00 in the morning, I think.
PHILLIP: Oh, so what was going on at 3:00 in the morning in the White House?
ROTHMAN: He just thinks it's cool, like he posts this thing where he's dressed up as Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now going to war with Chicago. He thinks it's cool.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: But also at 4:00 A.M. on Easter Sunday, he was also posting about committing a genocide, like you can't decouple them. And what all I'm saying is when you look at them together, and when you look at him not in exclusivity but together, you have a president of the United States who is getting older by the day.
ROTHMAN: I really think we should make this distinction between being provocative and blasphemous with making threats against an adversary in war that you've interpreted to me breaking the nuclear --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: I will take the fact you (INAUDIBLE) blasphemous. So, I'll take a win.
PHILLIP: All right. You just said a lot of things there, Noah.
We're going to get to the next part of this conversation because it's related to this. Speaking of religion, the leader of the free world takes on the head of the Catholic Church who is refusing to back down. We will debate next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, President Trump escalates his feud with the Pope after the pontiff repeatedly criticized his war with Iran. In a Truth Social post, Trump says that he doesn't want a pope who criticizes the president and that the Pope would have never gotten chosen to lead the church if it wasn't for him. He added that Pope Leo should get his act together and stop catering to the radical left. And of course, Trump didn't stop there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's a very liberal person. And he's a man that doesn't believe in stopping crime. I'm not a fan of Pope Leo.
No, I don't, because Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He was very much against what I'm doing with regard to Iran. And you cannot have a nuclear Iran. I think he's very weak on crime and other things. So, I'm not -- I mean, he went public. I'm just responding to Pope Leo. And you know, his brother is a big MAGA person, and he's a great guy, Louis. And I said I like Louis better than I like the Pope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:35:00]
PHILLIP: The Pope responded to Trump's criticism today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: I have no fear of the Trump administration nor speaking out loudly about the message of the Gospel, which is what I believe I am called to do, what the Church is called to do. We're not politicians. We don't deal with foreign policy with the same perspective that he might understand it. But I do believe in the message of the Gospel, as a peacemaker.
(END OF CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, the Pope basically is saying there, for those who are listening and not watching, that he deals with these issues from a different perspective, from a moral perspective. Do you think that the President, perhaps the White House, understands that distinction? And what do they need to know about it?
EDWARD BECK, MANHATTAN UNIVERSITY CHAPLAIN: Well, if you're going to criticize the Trump administration or President Trump as not understanding foreign policy or being weak in it, that's not the point. The Pope is trying to preach the gospel. The ironic image today is, the first day in Africa, he's beginning a tour of the poorest African countries. He's in Hippo in Africa, the birthplace or where St. Augustine was bishop.
St. Augustine developed the Just War Theory of the Catholic Church. The Pope is kneeling there at the tomb of the man who formulated the Just War Theory while the President is critiquing this pope, and the President is saying it is a just war. And the Pope is saying it's not. So, I'm just really struck by the fact that you have the Pope visiting the poorest countries in Africa, the most war-torn regions, really being a follower of Christ, and you have a president who's depicting himself as actually being Christ. It's very ironic to me.
HAL LAMBERT, POINT BRIDGE CAPITAL FOUNDER AND CEO: But this is 100 percent political, okay? This is all about trying to hurt President Trump's Catholic vote during the midterms and Republicans during the midterms. If you look at what play out the dots here, David Axelrod goes --
(CROSSTALK)
LEIGH MCGOWAN, "POLITICSGIRL" PODCAST HOST: Oh my God, the arrogance of this. There's a billion Catholics in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: Are you not going to let me finish? Let me finish, please. Let me finish. Are you --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: They're all worried about Trump's election in the midterms?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, all right, let's --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: Clearly, I'm striking a chord here.
PHILLIP: Let's let him finish the thought, please.
LAMBERT: David Axelrod goes and visits Pope Leo last week. They're talking about Obama going to visit Pope Leo. Pope Leo's from Chicago. All of a sudden, now Pope Leo is out attacking Trump and the policies of the United States and Israel.
PHILLIP: All of sudden?
LAMBERT: Well, in a much more forceful way. You have three cardinals come out today attacking the immigration policy. This is all about trying to get the Catholic vote against Trump. And let me add one more thing.
PHILLIP: Hal, there are just a lot of flaws in this --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: No, no. There's no flaws. There's no flaws.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: Axelrod is the chief strategist for Pope. (CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: The Pope would say he's not political. Why is he meeting with the chief strategist for both Obama's campaign and in the White House? Oh, really? Would he have a possible reason to with the chief political --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: J.D. Vance met with the Pope before the --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. Exactly. Pope Francis met with J.D. Vance -- Pope Francis was extremely critical of Trump.
LAMBERT: J.D. Vance is vice president of the United States.
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on a second. Pope Francis was extremely critical of Trump. He was extremely critical of the immigration rhetoric from Trump and his allies. He still met with J.D. Vance --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMBERT: Let me add one more thing that Pope Leo is not critical --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: So, what's the conspiracy?
LAMBERT: Because here, let me ask you this.
PHILLIP: What's the conspiracy?
LAMBERT: Why has Pope Leo been -- when Iran killed 30,000 plus of their own citizens, he didn't call out the Iranian regime at all? He said we need to stop violence. That was a very milk toast that wasn't calling out the Iranian regime, and yet he's calling out the United States and Israel.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: But war was never the solution.
LAMBERT: Jesus was a peacemaker --
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: -- peacemaker, he said. He's not taking sides in this. He's trying to live the gospel message and preach it. It's as simple as that.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is fascinating conversation because I just --
LAMBERT: It's political. SELLERS: Because, like, in the south we have this saying in church that says, "He is not done with me yet." So, I'm going to start by prefacing that. Like I have a long way to go in my journey and walk. However, to take a side and to actually have first an issue where you attack the Pope, takes a certain level of arrogance, which the Bible teaches you against.
And then when you have someone who has five baby mamas by three wives out here on one side against someone who is actually preaching the gospel on the other side, and we're sitting here saying it's political --the audacity of that.
PHILLIP: So, let me -- I have to play this because he is not done with President Trump yet either. This is just a sampling of over the years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK HALPERIN, JOURNALIST: I'm wondering what one or two of your most favored bible verses are and why.
TRUMP: Well, I wouldn't want to get into it because to me that's very personal.
HALPERIN: Even to cite a verse that you like?
TRUMP: No, I don't want to do that.
JOHN HEILEMANN, JOURNALIST: Are you an Old Testament guy or New Testament guy?
TRUMP: Probably equal.
We're going to protect Christianity, 2 Corinthians 3:17, that's the whole ball game.
[22:40:02]
UNKNOWN: State Bible.
TRUMP: I encourage you to get this God Bless the USA Bible.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Introducing the limited edition, God Bless the USA Bible.
TRUMP: I don't think there's anything that can get me in heaven. I think I'm not maybe heaven-bound.
You know I've done more for religion than any other president. I don't know how a person of faith can vote for a Democrat. I really don't.
UNKNOWN: Do you believe that God supports the United States actions in this --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: I do because God is good. (CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: Mr. President --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Trump is not -- he's not very deep on religious issues, okay? So, if the Pope is speaking on a moral level, he's talking about the Church's teachings, Trump clearly doesn't get that and chooses then to just attack the Pope on personal and political levels, even though they're not even really speaking the same language?
NOAH ROTHMAN, "NATIONAL REVIEW" SENIOR WRITER: The -- both the Pope and the Holy See have more cosmic concerns than the -- again, it's a basic statecraft. But I have a question for you, Father, because I am wholly unequipped to engage in a theological discussion. But I am a little bit familiar with Just War Theory and it does revolve around self-defense.
And as Hal noted, even if we were to excuse the fact that this regime is a horrible regime that slaughters its own people by the thousands, that blinds women as a matter of policy for wearing the wrong clothing, et cetera, the Iranian regime kills and attacks Americans on a daily basis. Anybody who works in national security will tell you these people do not sleep. They're continually exercising and finding out new ways to kill Americans.
We are forever devoting ourselves to that and we've gotten very good at it, is why they don't succeed very frequently. Nevertheless, this is a country that is at war with us and has slaughtered hundreds, if not thousands of Americans. At what point does this become self- defense?
BECK: Self-defense, first of all, is not the only qualification for Just War. However, they did not attack us on our territory. They did not bomb our innocent people in the same way that we have waged this war. It's an unjust war, according to the Pope. And so, you can't just pick up one thing and say, well, if it was self-defense, therefore --
ROTHMAN: The Just War attack is on our soil, so --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: Can I ask you a political question? So, at what point do we stop arguing theology with the Pope and actually reach out and -- you're talking about politics, right? And so, what I would do if I was in your position is I have the ear of the President and say, Mr. President, instead of standing up there and attacking the Pope, let's actually bring them in. Let's actually have a conversation with the Pope. Let's actually -- because you're talking about losing Catholic votes.
But let's actually do the right thing and actually say look, I -- whoever the Father is in the district that -- I'm Episcopal, so forgive me. But whoever the Father is in the in the district of D.C. actually sit down with him and talk to him, and try to bring them in. Everything does not have to be diametrically opposed. We don't have to rip people apart at the fabric of this country as Donald Trump does, even if he's doing it inadvertently.
ROTHMAN: Constantly fighting, and I agree that would mend some fences. But the American President is responsible to the American people, and the American people were facing the prospect of an Iranian regime that was developing a ballistic missile shield that would protect this nuclear weapons program, and that would threaten Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: The people were opposed to this war. They did not support Trump's actions.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: They did not ask the American people about the war. They didn't go through Congress. Netanyahu came to America --
ROTHMAN: The American President sometimes takes actions --
MCGOWAN: -- went into the Situation Room, and against the interest of all of our intelligence, Donald Trump made a decision on his own.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: You're putting me in the intelligence? We know the intelligence. The Iranian regime is trying to kill Americans. It does it all the time.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I don't think it would surprise many people at home, whether they are religious or not, whether they are Catholic or not, that the Pope would take a position that the war should come to an end. That seems to me to be a basic premise of a lot of people of faith, is that we should want fewer wars, not more wars, less bombs dropping, not more. I mean, I don't understand why that is so surprising to people.
BECK: I don't either. Just look at the life of Jesus. He was executed without resisting it by a regime that was more oppressive. And so, just by his very life, when Peter tried to draw the sword, he said, put away your sword, blessed are the peacemakers. So Jesus' own example of going to the cross is saying that violence is never going to be the answer. This is the result of violence. It's outstretched on the cross. And so, I just think it's really obvious to me, but it doesn't seem to be obvious to a lot of people.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: Well, it's also the difference between Christianity and Christian nationalism. That's a whole another discussion.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. (CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: There is no such thing -- I don't think -- it's a contradiction in terms of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Father Beck, we appreciate you sharing that with us. Thank you very, very much. Next for us, J.D. Vance has had a pretty bad week over sees in addition to the Iran talks breaking down, voters in Hungary rejected his pleas to re-elect Viktor Orban. Is the far-right nationalist movement suddenly dying around the world? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:36]
PHILLIP: Tonight, another stunning rejection of far-right nationalism in Europe. For the first time in 16 years, Hungary will have a new leader. Despite the efforts of Donald Trump and J.D. Vance to get out the vote, Viktor Orban conceded defeat to his opponent this weekend with the opposition party securing a supermajority in parliament. Orban is the Trump administration's closest ally in Europe.
[22:50:01]
And he tried to win votes by stoking fear that Hungary could be dragged into a war with Ukraine, with thousands descending upon Budapest in celebration. The winner told the crowd of supporters that together they liberated Hungary from the Orban regime.
Margaret Donovan is back with us. And it does kind of deal an important blow to the Trump administration. They've been trying to drag -- to create a wedge between Europe and Hungary specifically, and it failed.
MARGARET DONOVAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, it seems like a pretty sound rejection of that by the people of Hungary. I'm not sure how much we can use it as a bellwether for sort of like a larger statement because I think Hungary is roughly the size of New Jersey, right? So, that's not a huge sample size.
But it is pretty indicative. It's an odd place to say I'm glad that the person the United States supported abroad was not the person that won. But I do think, particularly with what Orban had done to the judiciary system of Hungary, that's sort of like a worst case scenario of something that would happen in the United States expanding the Supreme Court, putting -- basically getting rid of judges who should have had life terms.
And so, I think that we can look at that rejection of corruption. I think that that's a positive sign, but like I said, kind of approach it with some caution because it isn't that large of a sample size.
MCGOWAN: I think the thing that's interesting though, you're talking about the Hungarian people. And I think that's the thing that I would like to remember from this. Like, the reason this happened was because of the Hungarian people. They came out at over 80 percent. And that's even with the rewriting of their constitution, even with the takeover of the media, even with the courts and the election interference, even with foreign interference.
Orban couldn't overcome the people's participation and they won their freedom from that regime. And I think that's something that Americans can remember, too, as we go into this next year and the next two years. Because this regime failed because of the will of their people. I think that's really important.
ROTHMAN: What I find positively bizarre from the administration's case is that, obviously, they're invested in the post-liberal project. But Magyar, the guy who won, is not a left-winger.
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: He's anti-immigration. What he seems to be is an Atlanticist, which --
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: What is that?
ROTHMAN: Elements of the administration don't like -- pro-NATO.
SELLERS: Oh.
ROTHMAN: Elements of the administration don't like --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: He's also a pro-democracy, as well, which I think is fundamental to why --
(CROSSTALK)
ROTHMAN: This administration is lobbying NATO for support in its foreign affairs. This administration needs a stronger NATO and a stronger NATO committed to the Atlantic alliance right now. So, isn't this advancing its prospects?
PHILLIP: Yes.
MCGOWAN: No, because he wasn't part of the group, that crew, that's like altogether --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Let me -- let me play -- J.D. Vance talked about this tonight. Let me play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: One of the reasons why we decided to do that, Brett, is not because we can't read polls. We certainly knew there was a very good chance that Victor would lose that election. We did it because he's one of the few European leaders we've seen who's been willing to stand up to the bureaucracy in Brussels that has been very bad for the United States.
So, for example, when you see a European bureaucrat go after an American company, sometimes the only vote no, the only vote to protect that American interest, has been Viktor Orban. So, this wasn't about Russia and fundamentally, it wasn't about Europe. It was about the United States and the fact that he's been a good partner to both me and the President personally, but also to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILIP: So, tear down Hungary's Democratic guardrails, fine, as long as you're standing up to Brussels.
SELLERS: I don't -- first of all, on an American First kind of nationalism perspective, I don't even understand why they used the political capital there in the first place. That's first. But just delving into the politics of where we are, like the inside baseball. Somebody in the Trump world does not like J.D. Vance.
I mean, if you're going to say we didn't think we were going anywhere, but they send him, I mean, they could have sent Kristi Noem over there, for God's sake. I mean, they could have sent anybody over there but J.D. Vance. I mean, I think J.D. Vance--
(CROSSTALK)
MCGOWAN: The shield of America?
SELLERS: I think J.D. Vance is going to have a hard time recovering because right now, it looks like the fool's errands are what they put J.D. Vance on.
LAMBERT: Oh, no, no, I think this election, quite frankly, I think this election about somebody who's been in power too long. People, once you're in there, he's 16 years. Like, people want change. I think it would have been much better play if he had brought some in and said hey, this is who I would like to come in, a younger person, and get a younger person in there to lead the country.
SELLERS: Why are we involved in that?
LAMBERT: No, I'm talking about Victor. I'm talking about Victor.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: You're probably right, politically, yes. That makes sense.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yes, yes, and I think you're right. You're probably right. In which case -- in which case, again why would the Trump administration expend their political capital on that?
SELLERS: That's what I just said. You know, that's what I don't understand.
LAMBERT: You know, because they're loyal and I think -- I think Victor was loyal to them about things, and so, they stepped up when it was -- when they needed to do it. And I think it's no more than that. Like you said, we knew he was going to lose but we went over there anyway and did that.
MCGOWAN: It was a joke.
SELLERS: Makes sense. Thank you very much for being here. Next, two congressmen accused of sexual misconduct make an announcement about their futures within minutes of each other. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:28]
PHILLIP: Tonight, two U.S. congressmen facing the threat of expulsion from Congress are announcing their resignations following a series of accusations of sexual misconduct, including an allegation of sexual assault, which he denies.
California Democrat Eric Swalwell made his announcement this evening after suspending his gubernatorial bid. And just minutes later, Texas Republican Tony Gonzalez also said that he would step down after acknowledging an affair with a former staffer who later died by suicide.
[23:00:00]
Now, it's not immediately clear when either resignation will ultimately take effect.
Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media -- X, Instagram and on TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
