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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump On Peace Talks: Something Could Happen Over The Next Two Days; MAGA Criticizes Trump After He Posts Jesus-Like A.I. Image; Trump Slams Pope for Third Day, He Doesn't Understand War; MAGA Tent With New Political Punching Bag. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 14, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST (voice over): Tonight, Donald Trump picks more fights, including against a global ally, as pressure mounts in the war.
Plus --
MEGYN KELLY, HOST, THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW: It's enough, okay? It's enough with this nonsense.
PHILLIP: -- as the president's behavior gets more erratic, more of MAGA turns on him. But should they be surprised?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You and your buyer's remorse, no one cares what you have to say anymore. We told you so.
PHILLIP: Also, the war sparks a new global warning about the economy as Republicans keep asking Americans to sacrifice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: National security, yes, is even more important than your pocketbook.
PHILLIP: And Michelle Obama with a new adjective to describe the Trump era.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: And I think we're in just a janky version.
It's a janky version right now.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Bakari Sellers, Peter Meijer, Sarah Matthews, Emily Austin, and Ana Navarro.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Tonight, could talks between the U.S. and Iran be starting back up again? President Trump teased that very possibility today telling The New York Post that to stay in Pakistan because, quote, something could be happening over the next two days. However, with no deal in sight yet, Trump is basically also saying that the war is over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I had to divert because if I didn't do that, right now, you would have Iran with a nuclear weapon. And if they had a nuclear weapon, you would be calling everybody over there, sir, and you don't want to do that.
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS HOST: Well, you keep saying, was. Is this war over?
TRUMP: I think it's close to over. Yes. I mean, I view it as very close to over. You know what, if I pulled up stakes right now, it would take them 20 years to rebuild that country. And we're not finished. But we'll see what happens. I think they want to make a deal very badly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But if talks continue later this week, sources tell CNN that Vice President J.D. Vance will once again lead those negotiations. And tonight, Vance says that he remains optimistic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We made a ton of progress, but the reason why the deal is not yet done is because the president, he really wants a deal where Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon, Iran is not state sponsoring terrorism, but also the people of Iran can thrive and prosper and join the world economy.
And that's the kind of Trumpian grand bargain that the President has put on the table. Man, we're going to keep on negotiating and try to make it happen.
There's a lot, of course, mistrust between Iran and the United States of America. You're not going to solve that problem overnight.
But I feel very good about where we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, a lot of optimism from the president and his vice president. But, Peter, it's not the first time that we've heard them express optimism about a negotiation when maybe that was a little bit too on the bright side. The gaps that they have to kind of bridge between Iran and the U.S. are still pretty large. President Trump told The New York Post that he was not pleased with reports that the U.S. had asked Iran to suspend its uranium enrichment for at least two decades during the last weekend's unsuccessful talks, I've been saying they can't have nuclear weapons, so I don't like the 20 years. Understandable, but Iran is at five years.
So, even getting to 20 years is -- seems hard to do, getting to never ever, very seems even harder.
PETER MEIJER, CO-FOUNDER AND HEAD OF STRATEGY, THE NEW INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION: And that's something that Donald Trump throughout negotiations has been very good at, is throwing something on the table and then removing it. Traditionally in a negotiation, you put it on the table. If it's on the table, great, it's up for discussion. It's kind of a sacrosanct thing. That is not his approach.
Where we are right now, and I think this is where you see the naval blockade that the U.S. has started to enforce against Iranian ships that have left port in Iran or that are going to ports in Iran, forcing them to turn back, forcing them to not continue on their journey, denying the Iranians that oil revenue, that is ratcheting up the pressure against the regime to an inordinate amount.
[22:05:08]
And where we are right now, frankly, I feel good about.
PHILLIP: Do you have any reason to feel good about it? Meaning like any indications that we're actually close to a deal other than the president saying two days --
MEIJER: Yes. We don't know except for like minor leaks what has come out of the Islamabad talks and what the consequences have been when the Iranian delegation returned to Tehran and their conversations, right? We're relying on leaks there. But the reality is that the screws are being tightened to an inordinate degree against that regime at the moment. If I were in their shoes and looking around at all my options, you don't have any.
So, the question between five years and 20 years and never years, going between all of that, that is where, ultimately, at the end of the day, they need figure out what is in their best interest.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I thought that regime was deposed, one. And, two, I think --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Listen, whatever you --
MEIJER: I mean, Revolutionary Guard leadership is dead.
SELLERS: The fact is that we are still arguing for the same things that the JCPOA did.
MEIJER: No.
SELLERS: I mean, and ballistic missiles and -- oh, actually, if you want to go back to it, we actually had a deal in place where there was no nuclear enrichment within 20 years. We had this conversation last night. And we also -- MEIJER: Ten years that they'd start enrichment.
SELLERS: And we also -- correct exactly, which we don't have right now. And then we also had inspectors going in being able to check, trust and verify what they were doing. We don't have that right now, so we don't.
We also have something that most people don't want, which is that in order to get to where you're talking about, which is actually destroying their entire nuclear program, we have to put boots on the ground. And nobody wants that.
MEIJER: I don't think that's true.
SELLERS: Oh, that's not -- how about -- first of all, let's not lie to the American people. We actually know that their nuclear enrichment program is actually deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. You cannot --
MEIJER: If you want to secure the uranium.
SELLERS: But --
MEIJER: I agree with you.
SELLERS: Exactly. So, let's not lie to folks and just say that we can just bomb from on. You cannot. You cannot destroy their entire nuclear enrichment program unless you put boots on the ground. That's a fact. That's not something we're making up. That's not something we're just talking about here.
MEIJER: Iranians, if in the, you know, context of a diplomatic negotiation, say, you know what? That highly enrich uranium we're sitting on, it is no longer beneficial for us to do that.
SELLERS: I would actually argue --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We have boots on the water right now. I mean, it's -- you know, let's not --
MEIJER: There's a ship in between.
NAVARRO: Well, yes, I know there's a ship in between, but that ship can easily be targeted by Iranians and they would be toast. So, we have American lives. You're telling me that you don't think --
MEIJER: We've also lost American lives.
NAVARRO: We've lost American lives and we have American lives at risk there right now. So, let's not pretend we don't.
EMILY AUSTIN, HOST, THE EMILY AUSTIN SHOW: I'm not going to dispute that. You're absolutely right and there are realistically going to be boots on the ground. We have boots on the boat. That's my expression.
SELLERS: Why is that realistically though?
AUSTIN: Why is that realistic? I'm agreeing with you.
SELLERS: I mean, I hear you but --
AUSTIN: Because I feel -- I've heard a lot of reasons why people are really against what Trump has done, but I'm also not really hearing a rational response why we should let Iran just be. To pretend that this war was completely unnecessary and pretending that Iran is not a threat. Pretending it's normal that they swear in their presidents in ayatollah screaming Death to America and pretending that enrichment is not a problem, whether it's short-term or long-term, when a regime literally hates western values, when a regime tact our allies, I also think it's being ignorant.
Now, I don't want to copy what Europe is doing, where they want to mortgage their future for ten years of comfortability at the expense of a long-term problem. So, I appreciate the fact that maybe it's short-term pain for a longer term solution. Is it ideal?
SELLERS: No.
AUSTIN: No.
SELLERS: What's the pain? Because I heard the talking points and they're great. And I actually agree with some of you because I -- some of what you said, because, listen, I don't want a nuclear enriched Iran. I don't think Iran deserves to have a nuclear weapon. I think they sponsored terror for 40 years. I think they wanted to destroy America. I think they want to destroy Israel. I agree with all of those points.
But I'm not -- the short-term pain thing, you just can't leap over that.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Define that for me as we go forward. Because --
AUSTIN: Short-term pain, we're paying more for everything. I'm not going to sit here and deny that gas is not going to go up and groceries are unaffordable. I'm not going to be ignorant. But I also feel like if we don't do it now, I'm 24, it's going to bite me in the ass down the road at some point.
I don't trust in Iran. I don't like that they're sponsoring terrorism. It's death to Israel, but it's death to America right after that.
SELLERS: But, respectfully, when you were 16, we had a deal in place. That's the point. But like I hear you 24 now, when you were 16, we had a deal in place, and that deal is something that actually prevented them more so then from having nuclear weapon than where we are today.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Let me let Sarah --
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP FIRST TERM: I will add that it took 20 months to negotiate the JCPOA.
SELLERS: That's not bad.
MATTHEWS: And then we also look at the Iraq-Iran war that lasted eight years. I think the Iranian regime feels like they actually have the upper hand because it's in Trump's best interest to wrap this up, because he knows that the American people are not on board with this war. They're not on board with the short-term pain, if that's what you're saying, because I feel like there is no end in sight right now.
[22:10:01]
He's -- it's wishful thinking for him to think that he's going to be able to wrap this up and that's on his timeline. But for the Iranians, I think that they actually know that they have Trump backed into a corner right now, because the --
AUSTIN: Oh, I totally disagree. I think they have one more.
NAVARRO: I also think it's wishful thinking to think that there's not going to be a regime there that is going to be anti-western and be screamin,g death to America.
AUSTIN: But at least have them be afraid of America.
NAVARRO: Well, they're not afraid. They're fundamentalists.
AUSTIN: They don't like where they are right now.
NAVARRO: Now, listen, they -- you know what people don't understand is what these fundamentalists over there who have not been deposed, who have not changed, is like with gray hairs. You're 24, you don't have any. You pluck one out, three more come out.
SELLERS: I'm just a little bit.
AUSTIN: I agree. You can kill the person. You can't kill the ideology.
NAVARRO: There has been no --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: So, to Sarah's point, time is a big factor here. And the president, he has a sense of urgency. You heard it in the Maria Bartiromo interview. He's saying two days and we're going to see progress. The war is already over. And Lindsey Graham is hearing all this. He's also talking to Trump. And here's what he's saying that he's worried about. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I could care less what words they use as I want outcomes as to delaying the negotiations or extending the ceasefire. I think it'd be a mistake.
REPORTER: But is he threatening civilian infrastructure? GRAHAM: We're complying with the law of war, but all hell's about to break loose on this regime. He's offering them the ability to exist as a nation, not as a state sponsor of terrorism.
I'm afraid they're going to drag it out and I would urge the president to stick to the deadline. And if they can't reach a deal acceptable to him, then he should finish the job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, this kind of reminds me of Liberation Day. Trump said he made a threat. He put it on the table. He said, you got to make a deal with us in 90 days. And they said 90 deals in 90 days. And then you know what happened? He kept extending the deadline over and over and over again.
And that's what Lindsey Graham is talking about. He doesn't want the ceasefire deadline to keep getting extended because the true, realistic way of approaching this is to understand that getting a long-term deal, a permanent deal with Iran on their nuclear capabilities, on their ballistic missiles, on their funding of terror proxies is probably not going to happen in six days.
MEIJER: No, I mean --
PHILLIP: I mean, is that realistic?
MEIJER: I think it's going to be -- initially, there can be signals of what is on the table and what remains to be negotiated, and on the Iranian side of the house, committing to having free and open trade through the Strait of Hormuz.
Now, on the U.S. side of the house, we still have sanctions that we're enforcing against the Iranians. So, that's a point of contention.
PHILLIP: So, in other words, not a grand bargain, not the deal --
MEIJER: You're not going to get a grand bargain in a week.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, I'm telling you, this is what J.D. Vance says that Trump wants a grand bargain. When I don't think that they're being transparent with the American people about when that could feasibly happen, if it can happen at all.
SELLERS: But not only transparency, I mean, it's just like if we're going to do this, why can't you calculate just what happens in the Strait of Hormuz? Why can't you calculate or understand what insurance companies are going to do in response to that?
Like we have been caught off-guard every single step of the way. You're shaking your head no.
MEIJER: I'm shaking my head.
SELLERS: Why? Tell me. Explain to me, because if there's -- MEIJER: In any industry, Donald Trump now would not have a very comprehensive and competent understanding of within his administration, I mean, what was the whole, you know, oh, Donald Trump is a sucker for the oil industry. Oh my God, he's got so many oil executives in there.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Trump did say that he didn't expect them to close the Strait of Hormuz.
MEIJER: Correct. Not only that, cutting off their nose to spite their purpose.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I'm just saying I'm just telling you what he said.
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: Exactly, but the Strait of Hormuz, it delivers 25 percent of the world's oil. And right now, oil prices in the country, in the United States of America are up 50 percent. Like we're not actually out here saying that Donald Trump is some magical genius. What we're saying is that he failed, like they failed.
AUSTIN: I want to go back to what we were speaking about earlier because I wanted to ask you, well, what's your alternative? And both of you seem that a deal is tangible. And I really want to ask you --
SELLERS: Oh, I got my alternative.
AUSTIN: -- do you think there's good faith negotiations with the Islamic Republic?
SELLERS: Absolutely not. I have a deal. I know what we're going to do.
AUSTIN: Let's hear it.
SELLERS: The JCPOA, we did it already. Can we go to commercial? Like there's no -- I'm like they were further away --
MEIJER: That couldn't stop them from killing our American soldiers across region, didn't stop them from building bombs --
(CROSSTALKS)
AUSTIN: Yes, I feel like that's a symptom.
MEIJER: Our European NATO allies.
SELLERS: We have no allies left. Did you see the Italian prime minister today?
MEIJER: We have NATO treaty allies left.
SELLERS: Did you see the Italian prime minister basically taking --
(CROSSTALKS)
[22:15:00]
SELLERS: And not only that, but you actually asked our allies to help you in the Strait of Hormuz, and you know what they told you? Ask them to look out for their own self-interests.
AUSTIN: Exactly, because they would rather be comfortable for ten more years that actually bet on their future.
SELLERS: Nobody wants to be comfortable with Iran. What people want is competency and consistency.
AUSTIN: They have suicidal empthy.
MATTHEWS: I will add too to your question that you posted to me. I would like to see him negotiate a better deal than the JCPOA. I'm not saying that deal was perfect. By no means was it perfect.
SELLERS: Correct.
MATTHEWS: And there are other things that we could gain in negotiations with them. I just worry about his ability to negotiate and get a better deal because I do think that the Iranians feel like they have him on his heels. They know that he feels a sense of urgency to wrap this war up because this war is unpopular with the American people.
NAVARRO: You can call him up on the phone. Because it seems to me everybody and their brother has his phone number and he actually (CROSSTALKS). I mean, this Washington this interview today with The New York Post, they called him and basically said, should we stay in Islamabad or should we leave? And he answered --
AUSTIN: I love that. You want to talk about transparent.
PHILLIP: And then he called them back.
AUSTIN: The most transparent president.
NAVARRO: (INAUDIBLE) going to happen a couple of days.
PHILLIP: Well, at least we're hearing it straight from the source.
Next for us, the backlash behind Trump's post depicting himself as Jesus hasn't stopped. Is Trump underestimating just how much that has hurt his standing with his own base?
Plus, more and more Republicans are asking Americans to eat higher prices as a wartime sacrifice, but how will that fare in the midterms. We will debate?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENNY JOHNSON, HOST, THE BENNY SHOW: I'm also offended when anyone projects themselves as Christ or as Christ -- or God incarnate. And you shouldn't want that.
BLAKE NEFF, HOST, THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW: We should not have a president who gleefully blasphemes the faith of by far the vast majority of his supporters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The cracks are widening in the MAGA foundation tonight after President Trump shared this A.I. image of himself depicted as Jesus. After severe backlash, Trump deleted the post, and then he claimed that it was actually a picture of him as a doctor. It's just the latest in a pattern of increasingly erratic behavior that we've seen from Trump, and that seems to be getting under MAGA's skin just last week.
Trump also threatened to wipe out an entire civilization, the Iranian civilization, and that has CNN Political Commentator S.E. Cupp calling out former Trump diehards for suddenly feeling buyer's remorse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUPP: (BLEEP) you and your buyer's remorse. Who would listen to you now? Who would listen to -- you got us here. You voted for him. You told everyone they have to vote for him, right? It's going to be World War III if you don't vote for him. Give me a (BLEEP) break. No one cares what you have to say anymore. We told you so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Ana, I feel like maybe you might empathize with what S.E. is saying there. I mean, there are all these people, Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson among them, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who they are -- I don't know. I guess they have amnesia. They don't remember seeing Trump for the last decade. I'm not sure that Trump really has changed all that much. They have changed. Their tolerance has changed, but Trump hasn't.
NAVARRO: Well, look I'm seeing it in my own circles in Miami. Remember, I live in a community that overwhelmingly supported Trump, and I am seeing some of the cracks in the dam. And I think part of the reason that he's picked this fight with the pope, other than the fact that the pope gets under his skin and he's depicting himself as Jesus Christ and then lying about it, so that's like two or three commandments that he violated in one fell swoop, is because he's having such a bad time right now, right?
His wife is out there giving some random press conference at Epstein, the subject he wants to forget. The approval numbers are down, down, down in the basement. His Iran talks have fallen apart all while he's in Miami watching a UFC fight. Gas prices are through the roof and his best friend in Hungary just lost overwhelmingly after 16 years in power, despite J.D. Vance having been there just a few days ago helping him campaign.
And instead of us talking about Viktor Orban and the bells that should be ringing for Republicans, the wakeup alarms that should be ringing for Republicans, we're talking about Trump's insanity and stupidity and blasphemy and lack of respect.
So, is there a point, is there logic to his method and his madness? Yes, but but people are less and less tolerant of it. It's one after the other after the other after the other.
AUSTIN: I want to interject on Ana's point. I don't think Trump lied about the post and I'm not here to defend every action that he makes.
NAVARRO: You think he thought he was being a doctor?
AUSTIN: I want to tell you that Trump didn't A.I. that photo. The original post, was it Nick Adams who posted it originally? So, he posted that many, many months ago, calling Trump the healer of the nation.
Now, I'm not crazy. I have eyes. I could see how people are like, oh, Trump is portraying himself as Jesus Christ. But, A, he took it down. B, this isn't really that surprising to anyone. And, C, that's not -- if the person who created the photo is denying that --
MATTHEWS: Do you find it blasphemous?
AUSTIN: Blasphemous?
MATTHEWS: Yes?
AUSTIN: If he was intentionally portraying himself as Jesus Christ --
NAVARRO: He was. But he was.
MATTHEWS: Do you think he was portraying himself as a doctor?
NAVARRO: I don't think so.
AUSTIN: Oh, as a healer of the nation? That's what the guy who had created it.
[22:25:00]
(CROSSTALKS)
MATTHEWS: If he can't identify that that looks like Jesus Christ --
AUSTIN: Well, I think he did, and that's why he deleted it.
PHILLIP: Even the healer of the nation thing, I'm not -- that doesn't absolve him of anything.
AUSTIN: But I feel like he -- PHILLIP: You know, Jesus -- the whole thing that the picture depicts is Jesus healing, okay? That's what the picture is supposed to show. In the Bible, Jesus heals several people. And so the idea that Trump thought of himself as a healer but sees himself depicted as somebody dressed like Jesus with an aura around his hands and his head, it is -- that does not absolve him at all.
MATTHEWS: Well, did he delete it?
AUSTIN: We have bigger things in the world to talk about?
MATTHEWS: Sure. He deleted the image, and I applaud him for that.
SELLERS: I mean, I think (INAUDIBLE) that line is like. What if -- like what if Barack Obama did it, right? Like I would be --
AUSTIN: I honestly --
SELLERS: I think it's not an honestly thing. It's I know how you would react. But the fact is that, and I think that this is not a -- this is not a Donald Trump problem. This is more of a like, my good friends on the panel problem because we know who Donald Trump is. And the problem is that his supporters cannot sit on T.V. or wherever it is and simply say, look, that's blasphemous.
AUSTIN: But they did. So many of them did.
SELLERS: No, but, I mean, like it's sacrilegious. You are absolving him of the issue that I find to be very blasphemous, that I find to be very sacrilegious, that 90 percent of America finds him to be very sacrilegious on.
This is Mr. 2 Corinthians. This is not somebody who actually has a full grasp of theology, a full grasp of scripture, but yet, and still this is a party of faith.
AUSTIN: But, Bakari, don't get me wrong, I would not have been like, hey, this is a phenomenal idea.
SELLERS: No, I'm not saying that.
AUSTIN: That's not what I'm saying.
SELLERS: That's not what I'm asking. That's not my charge to you at all, and the audacity of me to have a charge to you on national T.V. My charge to you, however, is to simply be able to say on camera, Donald Trump was wrong.
AUSTIN: Oh, I've said it plenty of times.
SELLERS: No.
AUSTIN: I don't have a problem saying that.
SELELRS: No, on this. No, on this particular issue, Donald Trump was wrong. He should not have done it. It's not about him taking it down. Be able to have the audacity and courage to call him out and say it was wrong.
AUSTIN: Okay. Let me say this. It wasn't smart to post.
SELLERS: Oh my God.
AUSTIN: He took it -- it was wrong to post. He took it down.
(CROSSTALKS)
AUSTIN: He deleted it. We'll move on.
MEIJER: Is the Democratic Party not also a party of faith?
SELLERS: Very much so. I hate the fact that you --
AUSTIN: I don't know. They made trans visibility day on Easter.
SELLERS: First of all --
(CROSSTALKS)
SELLERS: So, we're just so extremely clear, the most culturally conservative and religiously conservative group in the country are black folk in the South, which happen to be the base of the Democratic Party. So, what one thing we will not do is question the religiosity. We will not question the Christianity. We will not question whether or not we have believers in the Democratic Party. That's something we won't do.
Because I know for a fact, like my mama was in church on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. That's how we grew up and that is the way that it is. And so we are not going to have that --
PHILLIP: All right. Hang on one second, okay? Hello.
AUSTIN: Hi.
SELLERS: Hey, Abby. Welcome to the Abby Phillip Show.
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance defended the president's --
NAVARRO: A converted Catholic.
PHILLIP: Well, we'll get to that. He defended the post. And then tonight, he actually had some strong words for the pope criticizing the pope for talking about war. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: On the one hand, again, I like that the pope is an advocate for peace. I think that's certainly one of his roles. On the other hand, how can you say that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword was God? On the side of the Americans who liberated France from the Nazis? Was God on the side of the Americans who liberated Holocaust camps and liberated those innocent people from, you know, those who had survived the Holocaust? I certainly think the answer is yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AUSTIN: Well, Abby, what do you not like about that?
PHILLIP: Well, here's what he was doing at that, in those comments, and he had many more, was he was saying to the pope, don't get over your skis on theology. This is someone who was converted to Catholicism.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance became a Catholic in 2019 after being an Episcopalian and an atheist. Now he's a Catholic.
NAVARRO: Was that before or after he became a Trumper?
PHILLIP: So, I think the -- what is surprising to me is that he would suggest that the pope doesn't understand the theology of the Catholic Church.
MEIJER: I think friction between national leaders and the papacy has been a hallmark throughout time. We can go back to Emperor Henry IV who slammed Pope Gregory II -- sorry, VII. King Henry VIII had so many problems with Pope Clement VII that he started his own church. And King Philip IV, his agents assaulted Pope Boniface VIII who died shortly later.
[22:30:00]
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: But let me tell you a different story. Those were kings.
PHILLIP: I get it.
NAVARRO: This is the United States of America and there's over 50 million Catholics, a lot of them who supported Donald Trump. So, what he's doing is not only wrong from every perspective, it's also politically stupid. Picking a fight with the Pope. When we Catholics go to mass, and I will admit I don't go to mass that often, I should go more, but when we go to mass, one of things we do at mass every Sunday is we pray for the pope. We pray for the archbishop. We pray for the priest. We pray for the pope every single Sunday. You don't pick a fight with the pope.
EMILY AUSTIN, HOST, EMILY AUSTIN SHOW: So, does that mean Trump has to agree with every pope or imam?
NAVARRO: Nobody is saying that he has to agree.
AUSTIN: I've never seen a pope get so political than not only this pope but the one prior.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Oh, like Pope Francis was pretty political. AUSTIN: They are like interjecting.
NAVARRO: Let me introduce to John Paul II who was very much part of the politics with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.
AUSTIN: That's fair game. If you want to get political, it's fair game. They disagree.
MATTHEWS: We put a context that a lot of the pope's criticisms of the war came after Trump threatened to annihilate the entire Iranian civilian population.
AUSTIN: Can we do a quick poll? Do you think he would have done it? Do you think he meant it? It's yes, or no.
MATTHEWS: I think that he was.
(CROSSTALK)
AUSTIN: It's yes or no.
MATTHEWS: It doesn't matter.
AUSTIN: He was threatened. Do you think --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But Emily, does it matter whether he meant it.
AUSTIN: Is that a good negotiating tactic for the president of the United States to use that rhetoric?
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, does it matter whether he meant it? Does it matter to you that an American president puts annihilating a civilization on the table?
AUSTIN: This is something I actually said on your show previously. With Trump, I follow his actions less his words. We all know he runs his mouth. This is not lost.
PHILLIP: So, hold on. Hold on. By that same logic when a terrorist regime like Iran says that they want to annihilate Israel.
AUSTIN: But they mean.
PHILLIP: Yes. But what is --
(CROSSTALK)
AUSTIN: They actually mean it. They've shown that they will do that.
PHILLIP: But listen, one of the big differences between us and terrorist regimes is that we don't threaten it and we don't mean it.
AUSTIN: I'm OK with threatening terrorist regimes.
PHILLIP: We don't mean it.
MATTHEWS: I'm not OK with threatening the civilian population and innocent people.
PHILLIP: We don't threaten it and we don't mean it.
AUSTIN: And I think we all know that Trump would not have even thought about doing that and that clearly, he was putting pressure on the president (inaudible).
MATTHEWs: But I don't think that's a right position for an American president to put that on the negotiating table.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I think that respectfully, I think that's terrible politics and I think Peter may agree with me on this. Because I think what you should do is actually bring the pope in, bring the Catholics in. You don't necessarily antagonize the pope, right?
Because you have somebody who is in terms of being a religious conservative, in terms of all of the leaders that we have in the Republican Party he's probably near the bottom one percent, right? And so, what you do is you bring in other Catholic leaders. What you do is you bring in the pope. What you do is you try to mend that fence.
You don't antagonize him from Air Force One. You don't antagonize him from the Rose Garden. What you do is you try to heal. That's the problem that people have. If Donald Trump would have taken a different tact, if the pope says this is an unjust war and you say look, I believe it's just because of X, Y, and Z. Not necessarily personal attacks but X, Y, and Z.
Bring in the Catholic members of the Senate and the House. Have a -- like what I'm asking this old man to do is be normal and not demented. And unfortunately, that is not a bar that he can cross.
PHILLIP: All right. We have to leave it there, guys. Coming up next, while the International Monetary Fund is warning that a prolonged war with Iran could have serious repercussions for the global economy, Republican lawmakers are downplaying the costs at home.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: The war in Iran is sparking a new warning about the world's economy. The International Monetary Fund is now projecting slower global economic growth and higher inflation through 2027. The IMF also adds that the damage could get worse if the war drags on.
The skyrocketing costs of oil has caused gas prices to surge since the conflict began. But Republicans are encouraging struggling Americans to just keep sacrificing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): I'm sorry the gas prices are going up but help is on its way and your national security, yes, is even more important than your pocketbook.
KEVIN HASSETT, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: While it's very frustrating to go with the pump and see what the price of gasoline looks like, the benefit for oil producers and workers in those industries is significant enough.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Well, they're still lower than they were under President Biden, so that's good news.
CHRIS WRIGHT, U.S. ENERGY SECRETARY: We're ending a 47-year conflict with Iran, but it does mean higher prices today, probably means higher prices for a few more weeks. But I'm proud of President Trump to have the courage to take on just a growing problem with Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Meantime, Vice President J.D. Vance is accusing Iran of economic terrorism as the Strait of Hormuz remains in a chokehold. But it's apparently OK if President Trump is the one doing it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: What they have done is engage in this act of economic terrorism against the entire world. They basically threatened any ship that's moving through the Strait of Hormuz. Well, as the President of United States showed, two can play at that game.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So Sarah, the Republicans here are taking a gamble. I'm not really sure. It seems like a pretty obviously bad gamble, but the gamble is that this will be over in a couple of weeks and then maybe all of the damage will be reversed. But if not, they'll just tell Americans that this is just the price you pay.
[22:40:01]
MATTHEWS: Yes, I thought that that was a pretty interesting quote from Senator Marshall saying that your national security is more important than your pocketbook. But I don't think that the American people felt like they were in imminent danger. And I don't think that the Trump administration has done a good job selling this war to the American people and explaining their rationale and they've given conflicting explanations as to why we started this war with Iran.
And so, a lot of people are looking at this thinking it's unnecessary and maybe they would be more willing to eat those costs if they felt like they understood why we were doing it, but they don't. And so, they're not going to support burdening this economic pain, whether it's the cost of goods continuing to go up or pain at the pump because they don't understand the rationale for why he even started this war. And so, I think that hearing that message from him, I mean, that's
like, if I were running against him in any election, I don't know if he's up for reelection in the midterms, but like, that is quite the quote, because I think that most people feel like they don't understand why there is this reason for starting this war.
NAVARRO: Well, it's not just pain at the pump, because pain at the pump doesn't just stay there, right? And I think that when sometimes we talk about pain at the pump in a place like New York, it's very different than if you're talking about it in Idaho, where there are no subways, where there is no public transportation, and where the distances are ginormous.
I was in Central America, I was in Costa Rica last week, and I was amongst people who are farmers. It's the cost of food, because it's not just oil, it's also fertilizer, it's urea, which is used all over the world. So, the cost to put food on our table, even if the Strait of Hormuz opens tomorrow, those people are having to buy those higher cost fertilizers. That means higher cost sugar, higher cost beans, higher cost corn, higher cost peanuts, higher cost food and that is not going away in two weeks.
PHILLIP: So, Ken Griffin, the CEO of Citadel, he offered a pretty stark warning not just about what the United States might suffer but what the rest of the globe might suffer if this goes on much longer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: What is at stake for the global economy if safe passage through the strait is not guaranteed and if it remains shut down for all intents and purposes?
KEN GRIFFIN, CEO, CITADEL: I mean, let's assume it's shut down for the next six to 12 months. The world is going to end up in a recession. There's no way to avoid that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: We were talking about a couple blocks ago, you know, how long is it really going to take to get to a deal? Trump is saying, oh, two days, a week. It's probably not going to be two days or a week and if it's two weeks, four weeks, six weeks, six months, that's the problem he's talking about.
FMR. REP. PETER MEIJER (R-MI): And the difference between something that gets the Strait of Hormuz open which is what will alleviate that global pressure versus that grand bargain which is going to require more fine-tuned negotiations.
I'll be very honest. When this war kicked off, I was incredibly nervous. I was not a war booster I was not somebody who was chomping at the bit to go to war with Iran simply because I thought that the cost outweighed the potential benefits.
Six weeks in, I do not feel this way. I look back and think, you're absolutely right, Sarah, when it comes to the messaging, yes, this has not been messaged well.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
MEIJER: When it comes to the execution and when it comes to the potential upside, and because of the fact that it was imperiling gas prices and politically, this is going to be something that weighs on Republicans in the midterm.
AUSTIN: Yes.
MEIJER: And I know there are smart people in the White House who understand that trade-off and they still did it for the benefit of getting rid of a regime that has imperiled the U.S. for almost five decades and a regime that I think is setting this world on a worse course, that is an act of incredible political (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: But we are not getting rid of that regime. That regime is there. I mean, it's different leaders and different names.
MEIJER: Altering that course. We're in the midst of things right now. The Strait of Hormuz with traffic starts to trickle out. This is the middle stage. Iranians are coming back to Islamabad likely within 48 hours. Have some hope, Bakari.
SELLERS: I'm very hopeful. I am hopeful, I am faithful in all of those things, however I just feel like those talking points are like BS. And the reason being is because there are Americans that are hurting. And it's not as if they just started hurting when the war started.
MATTHEWS: Right.
SELLERS: I mean, Donald Trump sold them a bill of goods.
MEIJER: Can I take a look?
SELLERS: I'm actually --
MEIJER: I'm transitory.
SELLERS: But I'm on this mountaintop. I was like on a soapbox. I was rolling.
MEIJER: OK.
SELLERS: And what all I'm simply saying is that these Americans have been hurting and we're not just talking about people who are Democrats. We're talking about the white farmers that are in Iowa that you so eloquently articulated the fact that fertilizer prices through the roof. But we're not just talking about gas prices. We're talking about the everyday cost of consumer goods.
[22:44:56]
And so, while you are trying to say that we have to sell something to somebody who cannot touch it, cannot feel it, cannot see it. They don't know Iran from their backyard. I understand it. I understand how it fits in this global economy. There are people who are really struggling right now and trying to understand why the person they elected is not doing what they said they're (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: And Bakari, we're going to continue to struggle --
PHILLIP: All right. We got to leave it there.
NAVARRO: -- because that farmer has to plan, has to buy the urea and the fertilizer today to use next year. That the person who is shipping goods from Europe has to pay --
SELLERS: Correct.
NAVARRO: -- the gas price and the diesel price today.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: And Trump said he would bring down cost Sunday.
SELLERS: And not only that, when their son and daughter have to put boots on the ground to execute, --
PHILLIP: We need to wrap, guys.
SELLERS: -- then they're really feeling it.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, the right puts Michelle Obama on blast after she called the current state of America janky. We'll debate that next.
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: There are versions of the country that happen.
HASAN MINHAJ, COMEDIAN: Yes.
OBAMA: Right. And the new version doesn't make the old one bad. It's necessary for growth. And I think we're in just a janky version. Right.
MINHAJ: Yes, janky is right.
OBAMA: It's a janky version right now.
MINHAJ: Yes, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Tonight, those comments from former First Lady Michelle Obama are drawing some criticism from the usual suspects on the right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BOOTHE, HOST, FOX NEWS: Michelle Obama has some not so nice things to say about America.
UNKNOWN: Michelle Obama taking a jab at America, shocking, under President Trump's leadership.
GRIFF JENKINS, HOST, FOX NEWS: I don't care what Michelle Obama has to say, but that arch is someone who's lived in D.C. for more than 30 years.
BOOTHE: You know, Clay, for a woman who has everything, why is she always so miserable?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AUSTIN: It's true.
PHILLIP: Well, I guess maybe there's a bit of a short memory because all the things that the current president in the White House has said about this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are a nation in decline. We are a failing nation. Our country is an embarrassment. This country has gone to hell. The American dream is dead. Portland is. I don't know how anybody lives there.
Baltimore is a hellhole. Chicago is the worst. These places are really bad. Washington, D.C., which are a horror show. We're like a garbage can for the world. Under Biden, the USA has been turned into a dumping ground. Today, we're like a third world country. Our country is being destroyed by stupid people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: Agree. Starting with him.
AUSTIN: I mean, I don't care what Michelle Obama said and honestly like it's really not that big of a deal but I continue to listen to it because that's always a topic tonight and she went on to say, I'm really digging how people are responding to this administration. And that really bothered me because I don't know if you're turning on other news channels but Charlie Kirk was murdered, Savannah Hernandez was beat up by a fat angry man in Minnesota.
PHILLIP: Do you think she was talking about Charlie Kirk being murdered?
AUSTIN: No, she went on to talk about people are resisting the administration. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hold on a second.
NAVARRO: He talked about Minneapolis. He talked people showing up in Minneapolis.
PHILLIP: Well, let's just be -- let's not, OK. let's not be --
AUSTIN: And people were violent and we all saw Savannah.
PHILLIP: I'm sorry, but hold on one second.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Forty-seven people have died in a press custody under Trump.
PHILLIP: Let's not be ridiculous here.
AUSTIN: And a fat man (inaudible) to the ground, 250-pound man shoving a woman on the ground is not an appropriate.
PHILLIP: OK. Emily, I'm sorry, but let's not be ridiculous.
AUSTIN: I think it's been very rational.
PHILLIP: She is obviously not talking about Charlie Kirk's murder.
AUSTIN: That was one example I gave of three.
PHILLIP: She is talking about --
AUSTIN: That people being hunted down.
PHILLIP: -- using their constitutional rights to protest against --
AUSTIN: To peacefully protest?
PHILLIP: To peacefully protest against things that they don't like. And she's using her constitutional rights to describe.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: OK. Hold on. I'm talking about Minneapolis, where we also saw two American citizens be murdered in the streets.
AUSTIN: We also saw a (inaudible).
MATTHEWS: I mean, come on. That's she's talking about. We're in a janky period of America, where we're seeing American citizens being (inaudible).
PHILLIP: I mean, Emily, did she mention any of the things that your words that you're putting in her mouth?
AUSTIN: No, she mentioned Minnesota, which I thought was ironic given what just happened to Savannah. This is all over the news today.
MATTHEWS: I think she was talking about the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti. And I will --
PHILLIP: OK.
AUSTIN: But she didn't say that. So the way you interpret it, --
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: She was talking about the people of Minneapolis showing up in defense of their community and their neighbors.
AUSTIN: But they are not peacefully defending a community.
NAVARRO: They were very, very peaceful.
MATTHEWS: They were very peaceful. I watched the footage.
AUSTIN: So, I watch the footage of three people --
MATTHEWS: There was no need for those two people to die.
AUSTIN: -- to agreed, and you could also simultaneously agree that people in Minnesota beat a conservative (inaudible).
NAVARRO: This is a ridiculous, honestly this is a ridiculous (inaudible).
MATTHEWS: What I was saying is that (inaudible).
PHILLIP: Let's move on from that because I think (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I thought that what she was getting at is that I actually found what she was saying to be incredibly hopeful. She's saying that no matter how bleak it feels right now that she's betting on the power of America that we can always course correct.
SELLERS: No. I mean, I agree with you on that.
MATTHEWS: That even if things feel dark right now. I hear your translation (inaudible) broken period for America.
SELLERS: I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. And the fact is that Michelle Obama for a long period of time from conservatives has gotten just an unfair, I mean, they've talked about her looks. They called her out her name. They called her an ape. They called her a monkey. Michelle Obama is that --
AUSTIN: And Melania is spared from that. Every first lady they get scrutinized.
SELLERS: We're not necessarily talking about the same thing but let me finish. Michelle Obama is one of the most talented people we have who've entered this political sphere. She's very educated. She's very well-spoken. She's a beautiful woman. And all she's doing is speaking her mind right now. And the trouble that Republicans have, and the trouble that you have, Emily, it's fascinating to watch is that when you have a black woman who is speaking her truth --
AUSTIN: This is not about skin color, Bakari.
[22:55:00]
SELLERS: No, no, I'm just saying because everyone has the same, it's the same reverberation when you have a black woman who is speaking her truth, the way that she is, with the power that she is, with the education that she does, there's no comparison between Michelle Obama and Melania Trump.
You want to talk about education level? You want to talk about job --
(CROSSTALK)
AUSTIN: I'm not just playing identity politics.
SELLERS: No, no, it's not --
AUSTIN: I think Gavin Newsome's wife is in idiot too, and she's white. So, I don't find that.
SELLERS: We're not even talking about identity. We're talking about achievement. We're talking about the fact that she has a J.D.
AUSTIN: I never knocked on that.
SELLERS: No, no, we're talking about she has a J.D. We're talking about the fact that she's never posed nude.
AUSTIN: That's lovely.
SELLERS: We're talking about -- but that's the difference between the two.
NAVARRO: She's never had to deny --
SELLERS: And she's never have to deny about --
NAVARRO: -- knowing Jeffrey Epstein.
AUSTIN: I don't recall knocking on any of that. I simply said I find it (inaudible) she mentioned Minnesota. I never get personal digging against Michelle Obama.
SELLERS: It's like let's be honest about we're nobody is -- and the crazy thing about it when I said that you said identity, and I'm like, no.
AUSTIN: Because you happen to mention that she's black, and I don't care.
SELLERS: No, I'm saying that the achievement.
AUSTIN: I actually think she might be a lovely woman. That's all.
SELLERS: The achievement of Michelle Obama intimidates many people on the right and that's OK. You know what she's doing tonight? She's probably having a little cranberry and Tito's and having a good time --
AUSTIN: As she should.
SELLERS: -- understanding that it drives you all nuts.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: She is a private citizen. She can say whatever she wants.
PHILLIP: That's the last word, everyone. Thank you. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
