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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump and Defense Chief Claim Iran War is Popular With Americans; Hegseth Claims Ceasefire Pauses Deadline for War Approval; FCC Chair Says Review of ABC is Over Diversity, Not Kimmel. Maine Governor Janet Mills Suspends Campaign; Graham Platner Consistently Leads in Polls and Fundraising; U.S. National Debt Now Larger Than Its GDP. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 30, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, as gas prices hit a new high in the third month of the war and polls hit new lows, the administration says the war is a popular one.
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I believe we do have the support of the American people.
PHILLIP: Plus --
BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIR: Disney as part of the filing is kept to come in and demonstrate that they've been operating in the public interest.
PHILLIP: -- while the FCC targets ABC after Jimmy Kimmel's joke, the president suggests fire him or else.
PHILLIP: Also, blinking red. For the first time in eight decades, America's debt has surpassed the size of the entire economy.
And now that the path is cleared for a controversial but popular candidate, will Democrats embrace or shun Graham Platner?
GRAHAM PLATNER, MAINE DEMOCRATIC SENATE CANDIDATE: No one's ever reached out. I've never talked to anybody in leadership.
PHILLIP: Live at the table, Scott Jennings, Adam Mockler, Peter Meijer, Kat Abughazaleh and Geraldo Rivera.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Philip in New York.
Tonight, a new question, just how popular is this war with Iran? President Trump says that the war with Iran could take days at first if he wanted to, but then he said it would be weeks. And now he says that now that it's carried into its third month, despite higher gas prices at home and plummeting polls at home as well, Pete Hegseth is saying that America is right behind the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: When I talk to Americans, and especially when I talk to the troops, they are grateful for a president who has the courage to take on this threat after 47 years of what Iran has done targeting and killing Americans.
SEN. KRISTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): What I'm concerned about is we are not safer, and I would just like to know why you have not sought the support of the American people, and three out of five Americans are against this war today.
HEGSETH: I believe we do have the support of the American people and we have briefed regularly what this mission looks like and why it's critically important that we undertake it.
GILLIBRAND: You don't care whether the American support this war?
HEGSETH: The American people are quite smart. They understand and see through spin. They know that a regime that says, death to America, that seeks nuclear weapons and the ability to --
GILLIBRAND: And at what cost?
HEGSETH: Did they lie about the range of their missiles?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The picture that Hegseth is painting there is wildly different from what the polling is actually showing. Just 34 percent of Americans support the war efforts, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll, and just 25 percent say that it's worth it, while 53 percent say it's not. So, even among Republicans, only 58 percent say that the benefits outweigh the costs.
And despite gas prices skyrocketing to the highest level in three and a half years, President Trump is echoing his defense secretary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And I actually think it's very popular what I'm doing. I can tell you worldwide, the world is thanking me because I shouldn't be the one that's doing it. Other presidents should have done it long before me. And other countries should have done it. We were not helped by NATO at all. Other countries should have done it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It seems like there's a lot of wishful thinking going on here inside the administration about how popular the war is, how Americans see the war. I've looked at poll questions that ask this in all kinds of different ways, right? I read you several of them.
Here's another one. In the long run, does military action in Iran make America safer, less safe, or have not much impact? Only 27 percent say it makes us safer. So, it's either the American people are smart enough to know what they think about this war, or they're not.
GERALDO RIVERA, PEABODY AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST: Well, you know, I think that Secretary Hegseth did a pretty good job. He was combative, he was firm. You know, he was kind of macho. He was also, I think, weak on strategy overall. The polls that you cite, Abby, reflect the fact that they have no endgame. And I think I am distressed for the administration for that reason. I don't think they know how this is going to end. I don't think they know how they want it to end.
I believe that you have a chaos at the top right now and everyone is holding their breath. I hope that the president doesn't, in a moment of peak, decide to take out the infrastructure in Iran just because he's angry and frustrated that the thing has dragged on so long. I hope he does not do that. Because I worry that nobody at this table and nobody in this country knows where the hell this thing's going.
[22:05:02]
ADAM MOCKLER, COMMENTATOR, MEIDASTOUCH NETWORK: Yes. Pete Hegseth wasn't acting macho. He was playing a macho person on T.V. He is not actually macho. We are dealing with a war that is failing on a daily basis, as Donald Trump has --
GERALDO: (INAUDIBLE) his machismo?
MOCKLER: Because he was performing. It was a performance for Donald Trump.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He's the expert.
(CROSSTALKS)
MOCKLER: Donald Trump is very impressive. He's taken his two largest campaign promises, no new wars and lower prices, ending inflation, and he's messed both of them up. He started a new war that spiked inflation, and now this war is actively failing.
An interesting statistic is that Americans have spent collectively $23 billion extra on the gas pump, and that's money that could have gone towards daycare, towards childcare. We'll sit here and you'll laugh at Americans spending money, but the reality is we are failing this war. The purpose of a war is to extract political concessions from the enemy. Can you name a single political concession we've gotten from them, anything at all?
JENNINGS: Oh, are you talking to me?
MOCKLER: Any political concessions, because you can't name one.
JENNINGS: So, here's what we're doing.
MOCKLER: No political concessions.
JENNINGS: When you get up past your bedtime, you get hyper. Here's the deal. We --
PHILLIP: All right. Let's not --
JENNINGS: We have a clear issue here.
MOCKLER: You're shaking.
JENNINGS: We have a clear issue here. No nuclear weapons for the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world, period, full stop. The president believes, and he may be right, I spoke to a retired rear admiral today, Mark Montgomery, who's at the Foundation for Defenses of Democracies, they think the blockade is actually more effective than the military campaign.
And a little patience on the blockade here, where we cripple the Iranian economy, where we kill their currency, which is happening as we speak, where we put pressure on China because they need to get their oil flowing again, a little bit of patience right here, not bombs, but patience on a naval blockade, could get the outcome you want, which is no nuclear weapons for the largest state sponsor of terror in --
MOCKLER: You've been saying this for eight weeks and we are now past the four to six-week deadline. Where is he enriched uranium right now?
JENNINGS: It's under rubble.
MOCKLER: Where is it right now, in the United States or Iran? Iran still has the enriched uranium. They still have the scientists scattered across their country and they have all of the blueprints in the cloud. You can sit there and act confused, but you can't name a single political concession that we've got from Iran's over.
JENNINGS: It's not over yet.
KAT ABUGHAZALEH (D), U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ILLINOIS: Okay. But also on that fact, why are we talking about the strategy of this? This isn't a legal war. This is terrorism. We're turning our military into pirates. We are seizing civilian vessels. Additionally, this administration --
FMR. REP. PETER MEIJER (R-MI): Sanctioned Iranian vessels that have gone through a DOJ process.
ABUGHAZALEH: We are just making --
MEIJER: You talk piracy like if words don't have any meaning, but like we have sanctions against these vessels and the U.S. sanctions against these vessels.
ABUGHAZALEH: random stuffs up.
But one of the most egregious aspects of this is the white Christian nationalist twist that Pete Hegseth has added onto this, saying that this conflict that we started, that we have sacrificed our own service members for is ordained by God. Is bombing a school full of school girls ordained by God? Is our prices going up and us not being able to afford an ambulance, we call an Uber instead? Is that ordained by God?
RIVERA: In 1983, I was in Beirut when the Marine Corps Barracks was blown up by a suicide bomber sponsored by the Iranians.
ABUGHAZALEH: It's not 1983.
RIVERA: 230 Marines died.
ABUGHAZALEH: That's awful. That's terrible. But that is -- it's not 1983.
RIVERA: They also took down a couple of dozen at the U.S. embassy down --
ABUGHAZALEH: Geraldo, we've hit an entire school of children.
RIVERA: You can't make them, you know, suddenly a victim.
MOCKLER: Okay. The real question is what have we gotten for --
ABUGHAZALEH: I actually think the school children are victims. I think the civilians that have been there that are dead are victims.
RIVERA: But so are the Marines.
ABUGHAZALEH: Yes.
PHILLIP: Hey, I do, but I -- hold on, I do think -- look, just to be clear, I mean, obviously, Marines being killed is terrible, school children being killed is terrible. But there's a big difference between Iran willfully bombing, you know, U.S. military targets and the United States bombing a school and then not acknowledging it, which is its own separate problem. But the school children are civilians. They're civilians, point blank. They should never be targeted.
RIVERA: That's terrible.
PHILLIP: We are, according to some people, already at the 60-day mark of this war, and, technically, they're supposed to come to Congress on it.
Pete Hegseth was questioned about this today. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): The war powers resolution specifies that a war initiated by a president without Congressional approval must be concluded within 60 days.
HEGSETH: Ultimately, I would defer to the White House and White House Counsel on that. However, we are in a ceasefire right now, which our understanding means the 60-day clock pauses or stops in a ceasefire. So, you're not in -- it's our understanding, just so you know.
KAINE: Okay. Well, I do not believe the statute would support that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MEIJER: I mean, that was essentially how the Obama administration interpreted the statute. They would --
PHILLIP: And Republicans disagreed with it at the time.
MEIJER: 100 percent. I think it would be clear --
PHILLIP: Okay. So, just to be clear, yes.
MEIJER: It'd be good act of constitutional hygiene and it's not, you need to conclude within 60 days you need to conclude or have authorization from Congress within 60 days.
PHILLIP: Exactly. So, they could come to Congress and get authorization. Why not?
MEIJER: Or they could challenge the statute, which as somebody who has either sponsored legislation to repeal or reform every extent authorization for these military force and to reform war powers more broadly. I also have to confess the War Powers Act of 1974, the constitutional underpinnings of that are shaky. It may not hold up --
PHILLIP: Maybe so, but it's the law of the land, it has not been challenged.
MEIJER: Congress has the power of the purse, and this is the reality is that if Congress continues to authorize the Department of War, if they continue to pass the National Defense Appropriations Act, they continue to do that. That will be --
MOCKLER: They're not going to shoot down the Defense Act on the basis of a war that Donald Trump started.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: The National Defense Act comes up once a year. It's -- I think it's probably this year. It's usually toward the end of the year.
MEIJER: They also are requesting a supplemental before.
PHILLIP: So -- right, they're requesting a supplemental, but they haven't actually done that fully yet. And I do think it raises the question, do they just get to pause this thing whenever they feel like it, even though there is an act of blockade and a blockade involves, the U.S. military threatening with force, that if any --
MEIJER: Considered an act of war.
PHILLIP: Yes. It is considered an act of force. So how does that not count? RIVERA: I think that interpretation, however, is subject to reasonable acceptance interpretation. If indeed there is a ceasefire, don't you want to encourage the ceasefire? You want to encourage this --
MOCKLER: Yes. But there's also a naval blockade, which is, by definition, not a ceasefire. We're still at war.
MEIJER: We're talking legalities when it comes to war powers and all of this. This is bird law, right? It is not governed by reason. You know, you can't get -- no, it's always something that Philadelphia fans here, come on.
PHILLIP: Wait. What do you mean by bird law just to --
MEIJER: I mean, when we try to apply like normal rhetoric, normal logic, normal like dictionary definitions --
PHILLIP: Yes, as we do in a democracy. Like we are not Iran. We don't get to just like ignore the law.
ABUGHAZALEH: We're also worried about international legal repercussions here.
MEIJER: Right, if we're talking about that. What international legal repercussions?
ABUGHAZALEH: This is a war of aggression.
MEIJER: What is international law? Who's enforcing international law?
JENNINGS: Who is the aggressor here?
ABUGHAZALEH: Us. We are the aggressor against. We launched this war, yes, just because it all exists.
JENNINGS: Did all of U.S. history exist before the last eight weeks to you, or just eight weeks?
MEIJER: It started on February 28th?
MOCKLER: Listen, we all know --
JENNINGS: I mean, honestly, they have been at war with us for 47 years.
MOCKLER: We all know that Scott Jennings is more than happy to defend a war with a country that starts with the letter IRA, that we are currently failing, that is going to put us trillions and trillions of dollars more in debt. I was only a few years old while you were in the administration defending prior endless wars.
Now, this war is failing.
JENNINGS: Eight weeks is endless to you?
MOCKLER: Okay. You said it was going to be six weeks.
JENNINGS: Is that -- you have the attention span of a nap.
MOCKLER: I debated you on T.V. four to six weeks ago, and you said we were weeks away from it. Now you're making condescending remarks because you can't defend the fact that this war is not going your way.
Wait, one more time --
JENNINGS: Not going your way.
MOCKLER: Name one political concession --
JENNINGS: Get your hand off of my face.
MOCKLER: Name one political concession.
PHILLIP: Hey, whoa --
JENNINGS: Honestly, I'm not going to have this guy's hand on my face.
PHILLIP: Everybody hang tight, okay?
JENNINGS: Honestly.
PHILLIP: No, everybody calm down, okay? We're having a debate. You can respond to the points that he's making.
MOCKLER: Can you name a political concession that we've gotten --
RIVERA: We are a flashback to the war the skinheads had in my studio.
MOCKLER: I would be mad if I (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: Scott, you can respond.
JENNINGS: We have a very simple goal to keep terrorists and a terrorist regime from having a nuclear weapon that can threaten the United States, our interest in the region, our allies in Europe, anybody else.
MOCKLER: So, you can't answer the question. I would get mad too.
PHILLIP: We're going to leave it there guys.
Next for us, the president suggests ABC must fire Jimmy Kimmel soon or else, this as his FCC chief speaks out for the first time since this extraordinary move.
Plus, if the lights weren't blinking red already, the U.S. debt has now surpassed the size of the entire American economy. We'll discuss that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00] PHILLIP: Tonight, as Donald Trump's FCC targets ABC in a move widely viewed as government retaliation, the president's personal vendetta against Jimmy Kimmel is getting amplified by the White House. This morning, Trump took to social media to again call for Jimmy Kimmel's firing after the late night host joked that the first lady looks like an expectant widow in a sketch last week.
The call to fire Kimmel has since been reposted by the White House. In an interview this afternoon, Trump went even further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But he's not a funny guy. He's got no ratings and I don't understand how he can be on air. I think ABC is putting themselves in great jeopardy, actually. You know, they've already paid me $16 million. George Slopodopoulos said things that were untrue, paid me $16 million.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In a press conference this afternoon, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr wouldn't say whether his agency's review of Disney would include Kimmel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Will the Jimmy Kimmel, will that all or any speech issues be part of this review? Is it solely restricted to DEI, the license, the early license reviews?
CARR: Our DEI review is going to continue, and it's going to be part of that. We are calling their licenses in for early renewal. I think they have eight station licenses.
Disney, as part of the filing, is going to have to come in and demonstrate that they've been operating in the public interest. And the agent has a lot of case law out there that describes in detail what those public interest obligations are, and they're going to have to demonstrate that they've met their burden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, there's a lot of words being said there, but there's also a lot of history, a recent history of threats being made by the administration or Carr himself to ABC over speech.
[22:20:06]
Kimmel's suspension puts the spotlight on Brendan Carr. Brendan Carr suggests it's worthwhile for the FCC to probe The View. The FCC says, the late night, daytime talk shows must offer equal time, that's in January. In February, Brendan Carr says the FCC has initiated enforcement proceedings over The View. In March, he threatens the broadcaster's licenses over negative coverage of the Iran war. And then now there's this. So, if you just divorce this moment from all the other moments in the last eight months, maybe you might believe him, but there's a lot of history here that points to targeting of ABC over viewpoints that they disagree with on their other broadcasts.
MEIJER: Yes. And there's real issues about, you know, the equal time rule, other elements like that. I don't like the president jawboning. I especially don't like the president jawboning when it is keeping Jimmy Kimmel -- it's the same dynamic that we see with interest rates. The more he says we should lower interest rates, you know, the independence of the Fed keeps them the same, even when they would probably would've lowered them absent that.
Jimmy Kimmel will probably be fired if Donald Trump, you know, stopped talking about him, because I swear to God, this is the only time I ever hear about Jimmy Kimmel. I've never heard somebody say, hey, you know what, Jimmy Kimmel had a funny joke the other day. I've never ever, ever heard anyone say that.
I'm tired. I'm tired of Jimmy Kimmel. Let him fade off into obscurity. Let him -- let his memory be the Man Show, which somehow has not resulted in his cancelation 20 years later. Like just --
PHILLIP: So, I mean, do you think that this is FCC trying to execute on Trump's desire to have Jimmy Kimmel punished?
MEIJER: I mean, I honestly don't know. I mean, there are normal things that occur in the course of reviewing the license. Obviously, the rhetoric around this goes above and beyond that. If there's any actual action taken, it goes above and beyond that. I just -- as somebody who actually appreciates the First Amendment, I think the idea of like allowing Jimmy Kimmel to be a martyr for the First Amendment is something that sickens me.
PHILLIP: Scott?
JENNINGS: Yes, I did speak to Brendan Carr too the other day about this issue, and, you know, he had explained that they were already in this early review process that there is some sort of DEI review going on with the licenses. It's been going on over time. They do have the ability to call them in for an early review. I'm not totally steeped in all the bureaucratic processes there. But, you know, there's a legitimate thing that the FCC does.
On the Kimmel piece, I got to say, I still don't know what the joke is. Expectant widow, I mean, they keep trying to explain that this was a joke. And how can we go after people who were just telling jokes? I've yet to hear anybody explain to me what's the joke, what's the joke?
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Does it matter whether it was a joke or not?
JENNINGS: Well, they're saying --
PHILLIP: Because I don't know that speech has a joke clause in it.
JENNINGS: And maybe it doesn't, but for them to then -- and he's been pretty defensive about it the last couple of nights. But for them to say, oh, we're just out here telling jokes. I wish somebody could explain to me what is the joke about wish casting the death of the president of the United States or anybody else?
PHILLIP: Well, I do have questions for you. And one would be, again, it doesn't really matter whether it was a joke or not. But, secondly, I'm just going to play this because this is Trump talking at the White House on Tuesday about his marriage to Melania. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And they were married for 63 years. And, excuse me, if you don't mind, that's a record we won't be able to match, darling. I'm sorry, just not going to work out that way. We'll do well, but we're not going to do that well, 63 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That was a joke.
MEIJER: I don't think he's living to 120.
PHILLIP: That was a joke. I mean --
RIVERA: He is 80. He's much younger. He is not going to be around forever.
Kimmel's problem is he's not very funny that --
PHILLIP: Kimmel says that that's the point that he was trying to make.
RIVERA: The mourning of -- very well. The mourning of Charlie Kirk's death or the night after, it was -- he revealed his true, I think, gutter instinct where it comes to Trump. He hates Trump so much, Kimmel, that he could, you know, use that platform. And he hates, you know, Charlie Kirk's death, his murder on live television, that he -- that body was still unburied when Kimmel was making jokes. And it was so insensitive.
ABUGHAZALEH: It doesn't matter if it's sensitive. It's the First Amendment. It doesn't matter if it's insensitive. It doesn't matter if it's funny. It's the First Amendment.
MEIJER: But Trump has said so many -- and you also can't say profanity on FCC-regulated channels. No, I'm saying there are limitations that are imposed because they're using public --
ABUGHAZALEH: With fines, you get fines for those things. And you don't get attacked by the president. Well, this really just shows is that --
MEIJER: You can go on a podcast and say all these things. He can have a Substack and say all these things.
[22:25:00]
ABUGHAZALEH: He can also say it on broadcasting.
MOCKLER: Over the past few years, if you even so much as hint that Donald Trump is a fascist, Republicans lose their temper, as they so often do.
MEIJER: Or you put it in into a manifesto after you try to assassinate him, because you believe that he's a fascist and you think that justifies his assassination.
MOCKLER: No, you guys have said that we shouldn't even call Donald Trump fascist.
MEIJER: It's the path to terrorism. That's phrase that you say.
MOCKLER: Then Donald Trump gets into office, he tries to remove comedians from the airwaves and you guys run defense for it. Donald Trump tries to make a list of his political opponents that he wants to lock up, like, I don't know, Comey, Leticia James. He's talked about --
MEIJER: Dude, I impeached the guy, and I'm sitting here talking about it, right? Like you see me in the concentration camps right now?
MOCKLER: No, I'm referring to other --
MEIJER: We are not the fascist republic.
MOCKLER: Wait, do you not think he has (INAUDIBLE) tendencies? Do you not think --
(CROSSTALKS)
RIVERA: Using the term fascist is so fraught.
MOCKLER: No, not when Donald Trump is taking comedians off air.
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: Hang on guys. Well, I'll only interject to say this because we've played it before on the show, but Trump has repeatedly called his political opponents, fascists, communists, et cetera, et cetera. So, again, if the word fascist in and of itself is so beyond the line, Trump has crossed that line.
ABUGHAZALEH: Additionally --
PHILLIP: He has crossed it.
RIVERA: It's simplistic rather than beyond the line.
PHILLIP: Listen, my point is that if you're going to use it as an argument to say that Democrats have gone too far, the president has gone just as far.
ABUGHAZALEH: But hold on, this isn't just --
MEIJER: I disagree with your rhetoric. It deserves some reflection and concern.
ABUGHAZALEH: It's not just about Kimmel. Last night, we saw in Texas courts that the case for Alex Jones and Sandy Hook families, which has been going on for more than eight years, these families have been tortured by this man for over a decade, he somehow found a legal loophole made just for him, even lawyers don't totally understand what's happening here.
And if you're watching this and you're in Texas, you should call your representative and ask what the hell is happening with that deal? This goes to speech all across the spectrum, except for the people that align with the most extreme parts of the right.
MEIJER: Do you have a vested interest in that case?
ABUGHAZALEH: Sorry?
MEIJER: Do you have a vested interest in the outcome of that deal?
ABUGHAZALEH: Yes, my partner owns The Onion. But also do you not want the Sandy Hook families to get their fair share?
MEIJER: No, I do. I do.
ABUGHAZALEH: because right now this is the only deal --
MEIJER: I'm just saying like there are other externalities there when it comes to that. So, I just want -- I like disclosure. I like honesty.
ABUGHAZALEH: Yes.
MEIJER: And I think the Sandy Hook families deserve every --
ABUGHAZALEH: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: All right.
RIVERA: Absolutely.
PHILLIP: Next for us, will Democrats embrace Maine's controversial Senate candidate, Graham Platner? He's winning in the fundraising battle and in the polls right now, but has yet to hear from party leaders. We'll debate
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, as the midterms approach, Democrats are being confronted with how large they want their tent to actually be. Today, Maine Governor Janet Mills, a handpicked candidate of the Democratic establishment, announced that she's suspending her campaign in the state Senate race due to weak fundraising numbers.
Her primary challenger, Graham Platner, has consistently led in the polls and in fundraising. But the progressive oyster farmer and military veteran has faced significant controversies over a series of offensive online posts he's apologized for and a tattoo resembling a Nazi symbol that he's since covered up. Senate Democrats are brushing off concerns about Platner's electability, but their enthusiasm over whether to embrace him appeared to vary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): But we need to clarify what I said in the past. But I think his heart is in the right place.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): We now have another person who's running and we're likely supporting him.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Democrats have a candidate. Our candidate is Graham Platner and I feel really happy for the people of Maine.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): I think the data indicates that he can win.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But I mean he's got a lot of controversy in his past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, if this were a Republican candidate who had had a Nazi tattoo, covered it up when he was running for something, and had said all the things that he had said about black people, about women, about rape, et cetera, do you really think there's a world in which Democrats would be like, let's just let bygones be bygones. That's the past, today's the present.
ADAM MOCKLER, MEIDAS TOUCH NETWORK COMMENTATOR: I think we're entering a new era and we'll see what the base wants. We'll see who wins when the actual election happens. But for the past decade, Democrats have been unified by our opposition to Donald Trump. And now, Graham Platner has a forward-looking message.
So, if Donald Trump or if another Republican had a Nazi tattoo, I don't know. Donald Trump has dinner with Nazis. It's not that far from, you know, it's happening. But there's also plausible deniability regarding Graham Platner's tattoo. We don't know if he knew, we don't know what he knew.
PHILLIP: But it's not just -- it's not just the tattoo. It's not just the tattoo.
MOCKLER: Listen, listen.
GERALDO RIVERA, PEABODY AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST: That sounds so pragmatic. MOCKLER: If Republicans want to cluster --
RIVERA: So ruthlessly you want to win or you're willing to overlook this Nazi --
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: If Republicans want to cluster --
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: If Republicans -- I've never talked with -- is not even a Nazi, I don't think it is. But if Republicans want to cluster pearls over an outsider candidate littered with controversy, you can be my guest but that's kind of who you guys elected straight up.
PETER MEIJER, CO-FOUNDER AND HEAD OF STRATEGY, THE NEW INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION: Yes, so the Democratic coalition you mentioned like the organizing principles opposition to Donald Trump.
MOCKLER: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: Our messaging has been in opposition a lot.
MEIJER: So, so, well, yes of course. But the organizing principles, as long as somebody's opposed to Donald Trump, welcome in the tent, right?
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
MEIJER: I don't want to say he's pro-Nazi and I do think that like the oyster farmer with the Nazi tattoo sounds like a bad Stieg Larsson knob.
[22:35:01]
But like this idea that, you know, let's not -- let's be serious. All of these senators were supporting Janet Mills, the incumbent governor, strong candidate, recruited by Chuck Schumer. Like she was the establishment candidate, did not register well with the base obviously, and she ended her campaign today.
And now, all the folks who privately were like, oh, my God, this Graham Platner guy is a nightmare, we got to get behind the establishment, normal person who will not rock the boat and will guarantee that we have strong competitive challenger to Susan Collins.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: (inaudible) Republican Party in 2016 when they're all like we don't want Donald Trump, he's a threat to our party, what, someone said we're going to get trashed (ph) if we elect this guy. (CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: He took over the entire party. So --
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: The point with this guy is what -- whether his background indicates that he is different, a hypocrite who's disguising predilections that would be very, very offensive to voters. So, the oyster farmer, is he a Nazi sympathizer or did he do something in a youthful burst of exuberance and get that tattoo?
I think that what you have to do is in all of these cases now, we as a society have to decide whether we forgive people their excesses and youthful excesses, or whether we hold them because of social media responsible forever and ever and ever for everything that they ever said, even a 10-year-old.
PHILLIP: I think that's definitely a conversation. It's not usually the conversation that we have in politics because usually in politics, when people have this kind of background, they get pushed to the side. But one of the reasons we're here is because the voters in Maine were pretty clear that they preferred him over Janet Mills. And AOC, who I should note, has not endorsed Platner. This is how she responded to the fact that he's now the nominee, essentially.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): When I see what Graham Platner is doing, frankly, I see a lot of resonance in the way I ran my race in 2018, which is like you are out in the street every day, town halls, community meetings, proximity to people. And when you -- when you get out and talk to people personally, it actually can have a much bigger effect than what they hear or see on television. And that's really what has helped --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So in a way, I mean, in a way, what she's saying is kind of actually the point that Adam was making, which is basically, you know, Trump was similarly, he was toxic. You know, the grab them by their you know what, and voters had another thing to say and now he's the president. He's been the president two times. So, is --- I mean, is that a fair point?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look. I mean, well, all political analysis younger outsider candidates are doing well in both parties, to be honest. Democratic voters appear to prefer these younger people who are more progressive, radical, I would say they wouldn't argue that. That's their presentation to much, much older incumbents. I mean, Mills, I mean, she was pretty popular governor of Maine, but when she's in her 70s and they just weren't having it.
You know, the debate about his past and about his tattoos and this legitimate points you made, they would never cut Republicans the same kind of slack if somebody showed -- by the way, it's not resembling a Nazi --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: It's a Nazi tattoo.
JENNINGS: It's a Nazi tattoo which he then blamed on the military for giving him. So, it's been kind of, I mean, it's a terrible thing but they're going to choose to overlook it. I would just say on the main race in general. Last time Collins was on the ballot, she never led in a single poll.
And then she got re-elected, means an interesting electorate. I think it's going to be one of the most fascinating and expensive races in the cycle. But to see the Democrats who've spent a lot of time calling Donald Trump a Nazi for the last several years embrace the guy with the Nazi tattoo who's a pretty, you know, has said a lot of anti- Semitic things is quite a turnaround.
KAT ABUGHAZALEH (D) FORMER U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, ILLINOIS: Look, there's a difference. Two things can be true at once. You can have done or said bad things, but you can also change your views and you can also prove that through your actions.
RIVERA: So, if you apologize, is that enough?
ABUGHAZALEH: Donald Trump -- no, I think you have to prove it through your actions and I think that Platner is doing that.
RIVERA: For your whole life, but how long? Is there a statute of limitations and how long do you have to?
ABUGHAZALEH: I don't know, Geraldo. I think it's more about are you actually trying to help people? And the truth is, is that a lot of establishment Democrats aren't.
JENNINGS: Actually, I think you're right. I think when people have things in their past, I mean, that's the purpose of a campaign. You get attacked, you explain it, and whether voters buy it or not is ultimately - so, it's hard to put a time limit on it because the only real arbiter of it are voters. And we're going to see if the people of Maine are going to buy some of these explanations. I'm dubious because what they're giving up is an incumbent senator who does a lot for Maine and it tends to be kind of a moderate player. But I actually think you're right it.
[22:40:00]
This is why campaigns are run. Things that happen in a vacuum today, it doesn't decide the election today. What decides the election is what you say and how they receive it. And you know, it's on him to do it. I'm personally dubious of all of the explanations. There will be Democrats who aren't. But you know, it's really, you know, but there's no technical answer other than what the voters think.
PHILLIP: So, Geraldo, I mean, I think anger is what's motivating a lot of his popularity. It's what's driving these candidates to be successful even in spite of their past. And Graham Platner sing was on TV tonight, and he talked about what he thinks Democrats should do if they retake control of Congress after this next election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM PLATNER (D) MAINE SENATE CANDIDATE: If we're the majority, we need to use the power we get to shut this White House down. We do that, I think one of the best ways is through committee hearings and investigations. I want the Trump administration not to function because everyone in the White House is being hauled under subpoena in front of a Senate committee day after day after day.
Using subpoena power, bringing people in for investigations, that keeps them busy. And that doesn't allow them to go start another stupid war. That doesn't allow them to continue to give billionaires more and more and more of our economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERA: I think that the people of Maine see in him the embodiment of what the state stands for, that kind of rugged individualism. Look at the guy, an oyster farmer, you know, making his living from the land. He reflects what they -- when people look at him and say, yes, he's from Maine, with pride, even though he's, you know, he may seem unusual for, for idiosyncratic, for a politician. But he's obviously hit a chord, and it's, he's, he's for real. He's stuck around. His popularity has been pretty consistent.
JENNINGS: That was a lot more measured answer than what you're getting out of some other people like Seth Moulton who came on CNN last night and effectively argued that Pete Hegseth should be executed for war crimes. I mean, that actually probably sounded far more reasonable than that. I suspect the rhetoric on Democrats though is going to get more extreme, not less. But that sounded more reasonable than some of the other things we're hearing.
PHILLIP: All right. Coming up next for us, the party of curbing spending and waste appears to be looking the other way as the national debt now surpasses the size of the United States economy. We'll debate, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:47:08]
PHILLIP: Tonight, if this is not a wake-up call about the American economy, I'm not sure what is. For the first time since World War II, the U.S. national debt is now larger than its GDP. That means that what America owes is bigger than the entire U.S. economy. That concerning stat gets even worse if the CBO's future estimates actually come true. By 2036, it projects that the debt will be 120 percent of GDP. And by 2056, it could grow to 175 percent. And we are just sort of whistling past the graveyard, apparently, on this one. I mean --
(CROSSTALK) MEIJER: Well, he wants to solve it and reach the wrath of seniors because it's going to require reforms to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.
ABUGHAZALEH: Wait, I have a different idea here.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: Not just tax the rich.
MEIJER: Seize the assets.
ABUGHAZALEH: What if we didn't spend all of this money on ballrooms and bombs?
MEIJER: It would make zero difference in the bottom line. Wait a minute. When Donald Trump got in, three quarters of our revenue is going to mandatory expenses.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: Money we have spent bombing Iran, we could house every American.
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: The thing about the (inaudible) --
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: -- is that nobody feels it personally. But i you felt it personally, if it was really your money coming out of your account, you would be much more eager to police excess spending and extravagant living and all of --
(CROSSTALK)
ABUGHAZALEH: Well, that's all Republicans do.
MEIJER: You're right.
PHILLIP: But I will say, I mean, to Kat's point, you know, we had a whole -- do you remember DOGE? That actually happened. That was about a year ago. And if you look at the things that the Trump administration is either spending money on or asking to spend money on, flippantly, these are all things that would be on the DOGE wall if DOGE still existed.
There's the $25 billion Iran war which some people say, according to our sources, closer to half of it, 50 billion. The National Garden of American Heroes, $34 million. East Wing Ballroom, $400 million - t he Republicans want taxpayers to pay for that. Renovating the Kennedy Center for whatever reason, $257 million. Gold accented, triumphal arch, $15 million. And Trump doesn't like windmills. So, he's literally paying $2 billion so that people cannot harvest energy off the coast of the United States. I mean, this is not seemingly an administration that really cares about spending money wisely.
JENNINGS: Well, as Peter said, the only serious conversation that's ever going be had about this is if you get into the mandatory spending that we do. It's the driver of --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The why did we do DOGE? What a waste of time.
JENNINGS: On the -- no, I don't think so because I think one
PHILLIP: So why?
JENNINGS: -- of best actually achievements --
ABUGHAZALEH: Was when all of our data got leaked to Elon Musk, was that one your favorite things? Did you like that?
PHILLIP: Hold on.
[22:50:00]
JENNINGS: One of the best achievements they've had because it's something Republicans have long promised is that they actually, we're going to shrink the size of government. We have the smallest government we've had since 1966. Over time that will save money.
PHILLIP: Okay, so DOGE --
JENNINGS: But it won't save near enough to solve the issue you're raising which is by the way a very serious --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: According to the Cato Institute, DOGE set a goal of balancing the budget by cutting $2 trillion in waste, fraud and abuse. It was later reduced to $1 trillion, and then to $150 billion. But the federal government spent $7.6 trillion in the first 11 months of the calendar year 2025. That is $248 billion higher by November of 2025 compared to the same month in 2024.
Every month of the last year, the government spent more money, not less. And in fact, there are also, you know, analyses of what DOGE did that suggested that we actually paid more money to have people not work in the federal government. Again, I think some of this stuff, this is why people were saying that this is all theater, because you're right. I
If you want to really deal with this, you got to deal with the core issues. You have to deal with mandatory spending. You have to deal with -- you do have to deal with the Defense budget. You have to deal with mandatory entitlement spending. But that conversation is happening exactly nowhere. No part of this conversation is happening anywhere in the Trump administration right now.
MEIJER: No, part of that conversation is happening anywhere in our government, nor has it happened in our government because anybody knows, and there's a reason why we call those the third rails, because you step on them you get electrocuted. You get-- you're -- I'm not going to profane location, but you do not win your re-election because the easiest thing to do is you are, it's going to be, oh, you're destroying Medicare and Medicaid.
I knocked on someone's door and they said, why do you want to take away my Medicaid? I had never said a word about Medicaid, but because I'm a Republican, I want to destroy it. You want to take away my social security. Doesn't matter that we haven't changed the retirement age of social security in decades. Well, the life expectancy is shot up.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, just to, you know, they did, they did, but they called waste and fraud from Medicare and Medicaid last year, and it did not have an effect on the -- when the fiscal picture of this country. I mean, I do think --
(CROSSTALK)
MEIJER: Because we send it to block grants to states who then --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Is this off the table then? Let's -- no more talk about spending and debt and everything?
RIVERA: You're not talking about deficit spending, you talk about the programs. I think that's absolutely true. If you personally are being chiseled in some way in your own mind with your monthly payment, then you will be so angry at the crusader against government waste. That's why nobody doesn't. Didn't Cheney tell Bush nobody cares about deficits?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Adam, last word.
JENNINGS: Deficits don't matter.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: They always say there's never enough money to help Americans. And then as Kat said, they go to war immediately after. I mean, the Big Beautiful Bill --
(CROSSTALK)
MEIJER: (inaudible) America is the Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: The Big Beautiful Bill cut Medicaid, cut medical research, cut just about any program that Americans rely on. And I was thinking, okay, so we saved some money cutting things for vulnerable Americans, but what do we use that money for? (inaudible) bomb other countries.
(CROSSTALK)
MEIJER: The premise of your argument is absolutely spurious.
MOCKLER? What? How so?
MEIJER: That we're just cutting these -- the Medicare, Medicaid spending. That the dollar amounts keep going up. They keep going up.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: Republicans consistently say we don't have enough money to fund, let's say, child care or school. But guess what, in New Mexico they just had free college across $1.5 billion dollars, that's like one-tenth of what this -- one-thirtieth of what this war has cost.
ABUGHAZALEH: And universal healthcare is cheaper than our current system.
MOCKLER: In New York City, they just passed-- paid --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: I wish I lived in the dream world in which the federal government can solve these programs and they can be managed effectively from Washington --
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: They passed free childcare in New York City.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: It cost about $300 million.
(CROSSTALK)
MOCKLER: -- all across the country.
(CROSSTALK)
MEIJER: Wonderful for Washington D.C. Sorry, wonderful for New York. Wonderful for Washington. Let these metropolises, let's devolve down that power, solve problems closest to you. Guess what? That's how you get effective government. Not saying, hey, let's send someone to D.C. to start raining money all around.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Well, that may be true but they still want to spend $400 million on a ballroom. So, don't know.
RIVERA: But that's donated. Isn't that donated? (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, Lindsey Graham wants it to be taxpayer dollars. Next for us, the panel gives us their nightcap, Celebrity Apprentice Edition. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, THEN-HOST OF "THE APPRENTICE", PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STATES OF AMERICA: You're fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:58:54]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It'll probably be good. He's got a little charisma going. You need a little charisma for that sucker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The President offering up some support for his son Don Jr. as his potential replacement as "Apprentice" host as Amazon is considering a reboot. So, for tonight's News Nightcap, who should be the first celebrity contestant on such a reboot, as a former celebrity "Apprentice" contestant yourself, Geraldo?
RIVERA: I've been giving it a lot of thought. I say Kristi Noem. She needs a job but she's colorful. She knows how to work the camera. And I think she's available. I think she'd be --
PHILLIP: You know what? I'll give you that one. Kat?
ABUGHAZALEH: If we want to talk about the art of the deal, I think the answer is pretty obvious. Ghislaine Maxwell is the first lady to call her a G. And if not, then maybe Kevin Spacey, Brett Ratner, or anyone else in the Epstein files.
PHILLIP: Peter?
MEIJER: Not saying that I'm a celebrity, but I volunteer -- I volunteer myself as tribute to Donald the Younger. I think if I succeed, it will be a healing moment for the nation.
[23:00:01]
If I fail, I will have been fired by Donald Trump and his son. And I think that's a nice Wikipedia (inaudible).
PHILLIP: All right, Scott.
JENNINGS: I think things like this, you should find people that don't really have anything else to do. So, Marco Rubio doesn't have really enough jobs and I think we ought to give him one more. He's performed admirably on everything else. So, I'm for Marco.
PHILLIP: All right, Adam.
MOCKLER: Jeff Bezoz, because he seems to be handing these deals out. He seems to be the one that's cutting them to Melania after he visited the White House, you know. So, it seems like only natural.
PHILLIP: I think he would win this one. Something just tells me. All right, everyone. Thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
