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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Trump Leaves China Short On Deliverables, Breakthroughs; Trump Berates Another Reporter After Tough Questions; Trump Considers $1.7 Billion To Pay Allies Investigated By Biden DOJ; Rep. Steve Cohen Ends Re-election Campaign; Musician Paul McCartney Releases New Studio Album. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 15, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, as the pressure mounts, so do the president's outbursts.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: You're a fake guy. You should be ashamed of yourself.
REPORTER: Mr. President --
TRUMP: I actually think it's treason.
PHILLIP: How another week of war is weighing on Donald Trump.
Plus, the administration considers a slush fund paid for by Americans to compensate MAGA allies who were investigated by Joe Biden's DOJ.
Also --
REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): This is by far the most difficult moment I've had as elected official.
PHILLIP: -- a longtime Democrat abruptly quits Congress, blaming Republicans for redrawing his map. Steve Cohen joins us live.
And dozens of ICE detainees have died since Trump took office, the most in two decades. A CNN investigation reveals they were preventable if not for DHS failures.
Live at the table, Yemisi Egbewole, Lydia Moynihan, Joel Payne, and Pete Seat.
Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here, they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
President Trump is back in Washington after wrapping up two days of talks with Chinese leader Xi Jinping. They covered a range of issues from trade to Taiwan, but the summit ended without any major deals on key US priorities, and that includes no clear breakthroughs on the war in Iran.
Now, as peace talks with Tehran remain deadlocked, Trump is dismissing its latest plan to end the conflict as trash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: On Iran, have you rejected the latest proposal from Iran, or where does that stand?
TRUMP: Well, I looked at it, and if I don't like the first sentence, I just throw it away.
REPORTER: What was the first sentence?
TRUMP: An unacceptable sentence, because they have fully agreed no nuclear, and if they have any nuclear of any form, I don't read the rest of the letter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, there still seems to be no end in sight as gas prices remain high, inflation is spiking, and Trump's ballroom costs keep ballooning. Meanwhile, Americans are struggling. And as all of this pressure continues to mount, the president is treating the press as his personal punching bag.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, you are here against the backdrop of the war in Iran. Why focus on all these projects right now?
TRUMP: You know why? Because I want to keep our country beautiful and safe. And such a stupid question you ask. This is one of the worst reporters.
We have a ballroom that's under budget. It's going up right here. I've doubled the size of it because we obviously need that.
REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)?
TRUMP: I doubled the size of it, you dumb person. I doubled the size. You are not a smart person.
We've had a total military victory but the fake news guys like you write incorrectly. You're a fake guy, and guys like you write about it incorrectly. I actually think it's sort of some treasonous what you're writing. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In some ways, I can see why President Trump is a little frustrated, because it has been, for him, a pretty frustrating week. He has no deal with Iran, the Strait of Hormuz is closed, there's been a bad inflation report and he goes to China and not sure what is coming out of this. No deal on Iran with China, and no deal on really anything else. So, yes, I mean, is he right to be frustrated? Is that what we're seeing there as he lashes out?
PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: He's right to be frustrated, and the media can ask any questions they want. They can demand answers. He has every right to answer those questions or not answer those questions. But I take issue with the fact that this trip to China did not yield anything. You know, you talk to observers of the U.S.-Chinese relationship, and it's all about cooperation, competition and confrontation.
And on the front of cooperation, you had the leaders of China and the United States sitting together, talking about issues of paramount importance for both of our countries and for the entire world, and they did it in a civil manner.
[22:05:04]
On competition, you had the President of the United States bring all these titans of industry, which I thought was an incredible flex, to remind China that while you may be the manufacturing superpower right now on Earth, we are still the superpower when it comes to innovation and ingenuity. All that manufacturing you do is only because Americans think up these products and give you things to manufacture.
On the confrontation front, obviously, Taiwan was a big issue. Maybe we'll get to that. But real quickly on Iran --
PHILLIP: We'll definitely get to it.
SEAT: But on Iran, quickly, China's with us on this. They want the strait open, they don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, and they don't want tolling. That's good to have China and the U.S. on the same page, Abby.
PHILLIP: Sure. That's a lot of things that you just said, but what came out of this summit?
SEAT: they're going to buy more agricultural products, they're going to buy more Boeing planes. Those are two big things. They're also going to increase or re-up licensure so that American beef can be exported. Those are wins for America's economy and American workers.
PHILLIP: All right. So, let me also -- since, well, let me let me play, since you brought up Taiwan, this is what Trump said about whether or not he is going to approve, which he hasn't yet, U.S. arms sales to Taiwan. This is a major issue. China does not want us sending arms to Taiwan. They want us to side with them on that particular issue. And here's what Trump said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So, President Xi probably liked that you haven't approved the weapons to Taiwan. TRUMP: I would say like is maybe too strong a word, because he thinks I could do it with just the signing of my signature, unlike Biden, who couldn't sign his signature. No, I'm holding that in abeyance, and it depends on China. It depends -- it's a very good negotiating chip for us, frankly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A good negotiating chip.
JOEL PAYNE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I'm glad he's focused on the important things, which is a burn on Joe Biden, you know, almost two years into his presidency. You know, it's interesting to me, I heard Pete and I -- look, logically I understand what you are attempting to execute on Donald Trump's behalf. He lost this trip before he got on the plane. He lost this trip because he lost all leverage on China with the quagmire that we're in Iran. He lost this trip because the Chinese actually have the upper hand right now because of the situation that Donald Trump's foreign policy decisions have put us in, and nothing on this trip did anything to really reverse that in any significant way.
And the people who lose aren't, you know, bureaucrats in Washington, D.C. It's the American people. Their gas prices are still too high. The cost of living is still too high. The standing across the world is in tatters, and we are not in a position to actually regain the footing that Donald Trump has given away.
LYDIA MOYNIHAN, CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK POST: Okay, let's be very clear though --
SEAT: Do you know that Xi Jinping is not on the phone right now with the Iranians asking them to open the strait?
PAYNE: Do you know?
SEAT: I don't, but you're so darn certain that nothing happened.
MOYNIHAN: Okay. And can we be clear too with China, yes, they have a higher pain tolerance than us for conflict, for gas prices going up, but they are in a much worse situation because of this war than we are. 50 percent of their oil comes from the Middle East. They've had to reduce imports by 20 percent. Yes, they're relying on their reserves right now, but they have to export all of their products, so their economy is hurting right now.
And it was very significant, you know, I'm not going to overstate saying that this was a complete breakthrough, but now there's the promise of us working with China to export some LNG. And I think that just speaks to the geopolitical dynamics changing so dramatically that they're recognizing the Middle East is a disaster, a hotbed, to Pete's point. They want to get the strait open. And they now are talking with us about importing energy.
PAYNE: Do you both actually --
YEMISI EGBEWOLE, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE PRESS ADVISER: Well, I want to talk about --
PAYNE: Just real quick. Do you both actually believe that Donald Trump's management of the war and management of the U.S. position around the world has made us stronger in the eyes of China, has made us stronger to combat China? Do you actually believe that?
SEAT: I actually believe in the power and strength of American leadership, and, unfortunately, far too many Democrats have exposed themselves as not believing in that and constantly siding with the enemy.
EGBEWOLE: Well, I want to talk about the CEOs that you were talking about that traveled with the president because I think they also had asks. They wanted access to the market share within China, and there were individual asks with each company. And I think for them, and looking at domestically what we have produced, there's still some left there.
I mean, the president went over there with this idea of let's get them to buy America. He wanted them to buy more Boeing. They didn't buy as many Boeing planes as they had previously when he went there last. He also wanted them to buy soybean. I mean, this is also a trip for the American farmers. And I think when we're looking at subsets of groups within the United States, especially our farmers, which is a consistent base in the Republican Party, I think there are certain areas where there's still left wanting as he comes back.
[22:10:05]
PAYNE: The farmers were taken a kick in the teeth because of Donald Trump's economy.
PHILLIP: One of the other interesting phenomenon coming out of this trip is Trump's about-face on a slew of issues that he had previously been tough on China on. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We can't continue to allow China to rape our country.
China's taking our jobs, our money.
We've had a fantastic relationship. I have such respect for China.
We don't want you buying our land. We don't want you taking the land and basically taking it off the market.
You want to see farm prices drop? You want to see farmers lose a lot of money? Just take that out of the market.
There are about 31 percent, almost 31 percent of foreigners coming to Harvard.
It's too much because we have Americans that want to go there.
I could tell them I don't want any students, is a very insulting thing to say to a country. If you want to see a university system die, take a half a million people out of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And I'm not the only one noticing that. Some of the president's past and present allies, Marjorie Taylor Greene says, imagine being an American student receiving a rejection letter while 500,000 Chinese students get in. Laura Loomer says, every single Chinese student is a spy for the CCP. Ann Coulter says, sarcastically, promises made, promises kept. And Mike Cernovich says, has China defeated our country?
Why is it that the president suddenly loses all connection to his past principles as soon as he gets to China on Xi Jinping's terms, and he gets the red carpet and the parade that he wants, suddenly all of the things that he said in the past don't matter anymore?
SEAT: I don't think it's that they don't matter. I think this is part of his building and strengthening a bilateral relationship.
PHILLIP: But based on --
SEAT: He likes it to be a two-way street.
PHILLIP: I think this is the -- my question is, but based on what? I mean, even the things that you mentioned, just let's be honest, Pete, these are minor things in the bigger geopolitical sphere of what's going on with China. The big issues with China are Iran and their malign influence over technology, and our competition with them over, you know, things like rare earths and chips and so on and so forth. So, those big issues, not resolved, not even really publicly addressed by either party.
SEAT: Yes, and they're incredibly aggressive in corporate espionage. Ask TSMC in Taiwan. And -- but going to the Taiwan issue just briefly, I am concerned by some of the comments that President Trump has made on his way back From China. He's not signing off on this additional $14 billion in arms sales. You know, the Taiwanese legislature just passed a special defense budget two weeks ago, I think, on May 8th. That was about $25 billion.
It was supposed to be $40 billion. They pared it back. So, now the money is just earmarked to buy arms from the United States. One tranche is $11 billion. Another is $14 billion if that gets signed off on. That is incredibly important in deterring China from attempting to invade Taiwan.
Now, whether they're actually going to invade, if they do it in '27, '28, '49, who knows when or if they will, but America has to step up and continue being at their side.
PAYNE: Abby, let me answer your question. He acts like a lightweight every time he gets around. It's not just Xi. It's around leaders across the world. This guy talks tough here at the White House. He talks tough if he's in Dubuque or if he's in Denver. But when he gets over to another part of the world with other leaders who actually don't buy his bluster, he backs down. I mean, honestly, he seemed like a lightweight. He seemed intimidated. He doesn't seem sure of himself. And if I'm somebody here in this country who's counting on him to show up on a global stage with strength and resolve and with a plan, that gets me disappointed.
SEAT: Again, were you in the room? Presidents, when they would go to China or talk to the Chinese leader, would always hammer them on human rights, for example. But they would do it behind closed doors out of respect.
PHILLIP: Hey, we didn't even mention human rights. I mean, I think we're talking about -- we're talking about, we're talking about things that the president talks about publicly. They're not secrets, that they're on the agenda. It is unusual for a president to come -- first of all, you go into the trip with things that are 80 percent sorted out. So, to come out of it with virtually nothing in terms of a joint resolution coming out of both sides is very unusual, and it doesn't necessarily signal that there was a ton of progress made, but we shall see. You know, the night is still young.
Next for us, the administration is considering a $1.7 billion slush fund paid for by taxpayers to compensate his MAGA allies who were investigated by Joe Biden's DOJ. We'll discuss that.
Plus, the longtime Democrat who has suddenly quit over Republicans redrawing his district joins the conversation.
[22:10:02]
Why Steve Cohen calls this Jim Crow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Tonight, an unusual proposal from the Trump administration that critics are calling absurd, extraordinary, and outright corrupt. According to ABC, Donald Trump is expected to drop his $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS in exchange for the creation of a political slush fund for MAGA allies who were investigated by President Biden.
Now, the $1.7 billion weaponization fund for MAGA allies would get out ahead of a judge potentially just dismissing Trump's IRS case, and it would be paid for by taxpayers, according to The New York Times.
[22:20:08]
For months, Trump world has explored the concept of a compensation fund for allies who incurred legal fees during those Biden-era investigations of Trump, and the money would be made available to the nearly 1,600 people with charges related to the Capitol riot.
According to ABC, final terms of the settlement will not be set until they are officially announced.
This is on several levels a pretty extraordinary thing, and I think just to understand why we're even talking about this, one thing you've got to know is that the case that Trump has against the government for the IRS might be thrown out simply because he runs the government. And for obvious reasons, it doesn't really make a lot of sense for his own Justice Department to decide whether or not he gets a massive multi- billion dollar payout. So, instead, they're going to create a $1.7 billion fund to potentially compensate pardoned January 6th rioters? How does that work?
MOYNIHAN: Look I'm very sympathetic to the people whose lives were impacted by the lawfare of the Biden administration. I mean, you're talking about hundreds of people whose lives were essentially ruined. They were dealing with years of litigation, I mean, went into massive hundred thousand dollar debt.
PHILLIP: You're talking about the people who --
MOYNIHAN: People who were associated with him, people -- no, I'm talking about people who worked with him in the administration who couldn't get jobs, were blacklisted after. So, I'm very sympathetic --
PHILLIP: Like who?
MOYNIHAN: Like Hope Hicks, you know, people who couldn't get jobs after --
PHILLIP: Hope Hicks was never charged with anything.
MOYNIHAN: No, but I'm saying the lawfare, the people who had to spend years of their lives in response, I'm very sympathetic to that.
PAYNE: She was held accountable for upholding an insurrection, so people wouldn't hire her?
MOYNIHAN: People who happened to be working in the administration to defend America and do what they thought was best.
PAYNE: Private employers decided to hold both --
(CROSSTALKS)
PHILLIP: I don't think she's a great example because Hope Hicks was hired, okay? She was hired by, in private sector jobs after leaving the administration. She's fine.
MOYNIHAN: My point is I'm very sympathetic to those people. I don't know that this is the mechanism to right that wrong. I think there's a lot of questions about how the funds will be allocated and how it's actually going to be --
EGBEWOLE: I think this puts Todd Blanche in a tricky position as well because Thom Tillis, senator from North Carolina, has said that he is iffy on pushing forth his nomination if Todd Blanche doesn't admit that the people at January 6th like committed a crime. So, I think being a part of this fund, it'll be interesting to see how the Justice Department is able to get Todd Blanche forward if this moves forward with the January 6th.
SEAT: Yes. I'll say, on the surface, I mean, it smells bad when you hear this and you read the stories. But I would make two points. First, in The New York Times' version of this story, they claim that this is being -- this fund is being fast-tracked, but then at the same time, twice they say that nothing has been approved, nothing has been finalized. This wouldn't be the first time that stories like this pop up about the administration, something leaks out, it's kind of trial ballooned, and then nothing ever comes of it.
The second point is, I do believe that people in this country who are wrongfully accused, wrongfully prosecuted, are eligible for restitution. I'm not saying every single person that we're talking about here should get it. I don't think all 1,600 rioters on January 6th should get a single dime or cent out of this. But if there are people who can make a case that they were wrongfully prosecuted, wrongfully targeted by the Biden administration, then they should have some restitution, just like any other American.
PHILLIP: That's a generic statement that I think sounds good if you don't pay attention to the details of what we're actually talking about here, which is that these are all people that Trump has already, through an official act, suggested were wrongfully prosecuted. The president is then now saying, potentially, that they're going to create a fund that would allow those very people -- there's no mechanism for distinguishing the pardons of cop beaters from anybody else, right? They're all pardoned. They could all be -- why would they not all be eligible for this fund?
PAYNE: Can I just say -- I want to say very genuinely, I appreciate Lydia and Pete, you all acknowledging how bad this looks. I think it's important that Republicans, that conservatives call this out. My second challenge to you will be, what are you going to do about it? Because I can just tell you, Donald Trump does things like this all the time. He creates these tests for folks like you to --
MOYNIHAN: Again, this is still a hypothetical.
PAYNE: Okay.
MOYNIHAN: It hasn't happened.
PAYNE: But let's say hypothetically a billion dollar slush fund paid by taxpayers is created, I hope that you continue to use your voice the way you do, and I hope that Republicans in elected office take a cue from you and actually do their job, hold him accountable, do the oversight.
[22:25:14]
And if they don't do the oversight, it's going to be part of the reason why they are not in office come this November.
EGBEWOLE: Is that a challenge to Todd Blanche and see what he does. I mean, this is uncapped money. It doesn't need Congressional approval. I think that's a little tricky.
SEAT: Yes. And, I mean, to your point, we don't know all the details, right? We don't know the details. We don't know what conditions will be placed. We don't know if you have to apply -- we don't know any of that. So, it's all literally hypothetical.
PHILLIP: Look, to be honest, I guess my point is, really, does it matter? If we're talking about a fund --
SEAT: Details always matter.
PHILLIP: No. If we're talking about a specially created fund for people that the president has determined, for whatever reason, were wrongfully prosecuted and honestly mainly because he thinks that everything that was done by Biden was wrong, does it really matter whether you have to fill out an application or not? I mean, isn't the principle this should or should not be happening? I mean, do you think there's any world in which this should be happening?
SEAT: I mean, it's probably going to be litigated, just like everything this administration does. But --
PHILLIP: Do you think that in any world this should be happening, period, because there are mechanisms? If you have a grievance against the government and you're just a regular citizen, you can file your own lawsuit. Why is Trump creating a special pathway for his allies?
SEAT: Well, they've done their homework, and I'm not saying it is right. I'm not saying it's correct. I don't know all the legalities behind it, but their argument is that this is very similar to an Obama-era fund that was created for Native American farmers --
PHILLIP: How is it very similar to that?
SEAT: I said their argument. I didn't say I agree. I said their argument. I'm telling you what's in the reporting. But they've clearly done their -- they've done enough homework to say, hey, this will be our case if it ends up going to court. Then courts will decide whether it's right or wrong.
PAYNE: I think every Republican in America needs to be asked, do you think that our tax dollars should go to pay off Donald Trump's political grievances? They shouldn't, period.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Next for us, Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen suddenly announcing that he's ending his re-election campaign after Republicans redrew his district's map. Why he says race is involved.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: This is by far the most difficult moment I've had as an elected official. I don't want to quit. I'm not a quitter. But these districts were drawn to beat me. They were drawn to defeat me.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Tennessee's sole congressional Democrat says that he is out. Long-time Congressman Steve Cohen ended his reelection bid in light of Tennessee's explosive redistricting fight. State Republicans pushed through a sweeping new map that carves up his black majority house district, includes the city of Memphis. Congressman Cohen joins me now for the first CNN interview since making that announcement.
Congressman, thank you very much for being here. And I know that today was actually a quite emotional day for you, I'm sure. I want to ask you about the rationale for all of this. So, Republicans in your state say that this is not about race, it's about partisanship. It's about making the state represent the conservative politics of most of its voters. But what do you think is motivating it?
COHEN: Well, I think it's a combination of wanting to deliver to Donald Trump, wants another Republican congressperson so he can avoid what he thinks would be an impeachment possibility. But it's also oversight of the Justice -- the Judiciary Committee and the Oversight Committee. He wants to avoid that. He's committed so many crimes while he's been in office. It's a field day for the Democrats if they get the majority to oversee his activities, exposing to the American public.
A mindless cause of violations, selling of pardons, crypto involvement, where he's made billions of dollars out of crypto. And he didn't want that to happen. On the other hand, so it was power for Trump, but at the same time they wanted to crack Memphis. And there's quite a few people in the Republican side and in this general assembly who don't like Memphis. And they think of it as a black city and they don't like a black city, and they've taken over our health department -- excuse me, excuse me, our Education Department.
They've taken that over. They've put certain limitations on the district attorney general, who's not black, but they call him a Soros attorney general. They put certain limitations on our police director, who is black. And I think it's kind of colonizing Memphis.
PHILLIP: Colonizing Memphis, your colleagues, some of your Democratic colleagues have used other descriptors of it. They've called it an example of white supremacy in action. Do you agree with them on that?
COHEN: Well, I guess it could be. I've heard those terms used. You know, they said it wasn't racial, but when you look at the three districts they created out of Memphis, which my district was 62 percent African American. Not a voting rights district, but a district that was just grew and was naturally African American majority.
[22:35:00]
And it was a district that the Republicans had and created and are maintained. They didn't have any problem with it until the Kalei decision came down and Donald Trump gave him a phone call. But anyway, they made up these three districts and two of them have 29 percent African American population and one of them, I think it's 32 percent. So, you say this within the margin of error. The idea that you could take and divide up three districts out of one
and that two of them would be the same number of African-Americans, the third would be 32. Just the perfect numbers to keep African Americans from having a majority or the ability to put together a majority to choose the candidate of their own choice, which is what the Section two of the Voting Rights Act was about, was to be able to choose their preferred candidate. But it's just too coincidental that they came up with the exact figures and all within the same frame.
PHILLIP: You kind of alluded to this, Congressman, but you know, one of the arguments that we often hear, including right here at this table, is that the Memphis district that you represent doesn't really black representation because you are white. What is your response to that argument?
COHEN: Yes, what's that guy's name that's on your panel? Sterling, Turner, Taylor?
PHILLIP: Are you talking about Scott?
COHEN: Yes, Scott, whatever his name is.
PHILLIP: Scott Jennings, yes.
COHEN: I mean, it's a beautiful thing that the African-American community, it's not because it's me per se, but that they have selected and chosen for 20 years a white congressman who does the job. I do the job. I always had black friends and black political friends. That's where I kind of, my mentors were some political heroes and over the years, Vasco and Maxine Smith. Maxine was a national treasure of the -- (inaudible) of the board of the NAACP.
Jesse Turner was the national treasurer and I served with him on the county commission. Russell (inaudible), different people that were in -- and Ben Hooks. They're all (inaudible) I knew well and learned from. And so, that's been people I've admired. Julia Bond (ph) was one of my best friends. So, I had good background in issues. And the black people liked the fact that I represented. I voted strong and gave good constituent services.
And the fact that the black community did that for so many years should be considered one of the, something that America tries to achieve, and appreciates, and not destroy. Because it's not -- and I think it's only spot we've had. Lindy Boggs and White Spalder both have black districts, but I think they became majority districts after they were there for a while.
Mine was majority when I was elected. But it's a beautiful thing about America in the race situation and people getting along. I've got such good constituents and they've been wonderful to me and I appreciate them so much.
PHILLIP: So, you've said that if this map in Tennessee is somehow overturned in the courts, you would actually run again. You're not going to run, though, in the new, one of the three new districts that they've created. But I have to ask you, because some in your party, including some of the people you were running against in your old district, have made the case that it is time for generational change. You are in your '70s. You've been in Congress for almost 20 years. Is it time to let another generation have a chance to lead? Did you give that consideration?
COHEN: Not really. London Lamar decided to run for the District nine seat. London Lamar was a good state senator who's been effective in passing legislation and in going to session. She works at the job. She was an intern for me both in Washington and in Memphis. And she's well respected. And I think she was the youngest African-American woman to ever have elected to the state senate. So, she's kind of a different.
And she called me. She said, if you're going to run, I will not run. But if you don't run, I'd like to run. And I thought, well, I was, go ahead, London. You do it. And I want to stand in her way because I know she's a good person and she works hard at it and she's effective. She knows how to work with people.
PHILLIP: All right, Congressman Steve Cohen, thank you very much. I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
COHEN: You're welcome.
PHILLIP: All right, so, Pete, I'm going to -- I'm going to have you sit in for Scott Jennings there since he was named dropped by the Congressman.
SEAT: Some people get us confused --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, I guess that, I heard you know we have heard a lot of that, that critique that it's not really about race. It's just about Democrats electing more Democrats. But the point he's making is that-- that it doesn't it doesn't matter the race of the person that the voters elect. It's just that they have the right to elect who they want to elect. Do you understand what he's trying to say there?
SEAT: I understand what he's trying to say, but he's also making the argument that he only cares if it's a Democrat district. I mean, he has said in another interview, or actually maybe it was in his announcement that he was not going to run again, that the new district he would potentially seek is, quote, nothing like the ninth district that I've represented.
[22:40:01]
That is code for I'm going to get my clock cleaned in the new district --
PHILLIP: Well --
SEAT: -- and therefore for that reason, gerrymandering is in the eye of the loser.
PHILLIP: Well, here's the thing. I mean, when you listen to his whole announcement, what he was talking about was that some of the districts that were drawn are drawn in huge swaths of the state. And this is not just an issue in Tennessee but it's an issue in other parts of the country, too, where you have people in an urban setting like Memphis also in the same district as people who are on the border, you know, with Mississippi and with Kentucky. I mean, it's the sprawl of these districts that they had to create in order to manufacture a minority population is what he is talking about.
EGBEWOLE: Yes, and I do feel that we are going to gerrymander our way to the bottom here. I think Republicans, Democrats, the gerrymandering has reached its head, especially what we saw in Virginia. And unfortunately, I think the biggest victims of it are going to be southern black Democrats, they're carving up black districts.
And I don't see, frankly, I don't see a Democratic Party that is prepared to be on the front lines to defend what they -- what they put forth to begin with when Gavin Newsom took up this mantle after Texas happened. And there was a wave of, okay, we're going to -- we're going to do this redistricting. Well now, they're redistricting black districts.
And I want to point to something then Vince Evans said, whose executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus, who pointed out that some of the loudest progressive voices who speak loudly about things that fit within their ideological lane have not spoken up enough about this. And he pointedly said Senator Bernie Sanders. And so, I think if we're going to talk about oligarchy and saving and protecting democracy, that has to come to the forefront while we're also talking about the southern states.
PHILLIP: I just want to play this from your former boss, Vice President Kamala Harris, is what she said needs to be done now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Look, this is a moment where there are no bad ideas. A no bad idea brainstorm is what I'd like to call it. And in that no bad ideas brainstorm, we talk about what we need to do and think about doing around the electoral college. We talk about the idea of Supreme Court reform, which includes expanding the Supreme Court. We've got to neutralize these red states from cheating, including blue states expanding their maps. Look, we got to fight fire with fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Is there really an argument against what she said considering that we're in -- we are in this state of each party doing whatever needs to be done to gain more power?
MOYNIHAN: Yes, there's been sort of two Democratic responses. The first is hers. And after years of hearing, Donald Trump is going to destroy the Constitution and undermine the very fabric of our society. Now, in order to protect the Constitution, we need to expand the court, undermine the judiciary, eliminate the Electoral College, which is how we've always elected the president, and then add D.C. and Puerto Rico as states.
I mean it's, the irony is just beyond that she wants to save democracy by undermining the Constitution. So, that's the one reaction that we've seen. And then the other reaction is the reaction from the far left, like Hassan Piker, who literally has said, you know, this is going to lead to more political violence, which is kind of an endorsement of that, suggesting that that's what's going to happen. So, I found it alarming to see that Democrats basically either want to undermine our Constitution in order to save democracy, or are essentially calling for --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I mean, I think you can let us Hasan Piker speak for himself. I'd challenge you to name any other Democrat of any stature who has repeated what he said.
MOYNIHAN: Well, the Democratic Party is embracing Hasan Piker.
PHILLIP: Nobody has embraced a call to violence.
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: Hasan Piker is calling for violence. Democrats are embracing him.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hasan Piker -- who else?
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: He's literally campaigning for Democrats, like Mamdani and El Sayed.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Okay, all right. Go ahead.
PAYNE: This is a gut-punch at black political power. And it's funny because the Supreme Court has told you that you can use race to harm people of color with Kavanaugh stops, but you cannot use race to protect communities represented by people of color to make sure they have representation. And the Supreme Court that is jet-fueled by MAGA wipes their nose with the Constitution, wipes their nose with precedent, and again, have put a bull's eye on a target on black political power.
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: Hold on, I'm not done yet. I'm not done yet. And what's the most important thing. Congress not done yet not done yet and what's most remarkable is that this is all being done to allow Donald Trump to spend $1 billion on a ballroom, to allow Donald Trump to spend billions more in a quagmire in Iran, to allow Donald Trump to take billions of taxpayer dollars and create a slush fund. That's what it's being done for, to protect his power and to allow him to continue to circle the drain. That's what the Republican legacy is.
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: Can you answer my question now?
[22:45:00]
Are they still going to have a vote in this new district? And if you listen to what the congressman said, it's going to be 29 percent, 29 percent, 32 percent black.
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: Yes, the crack makes this open like an egg.
SEAT: But that is a giant block of voters who could swing nominations and potentially general elections if you have good candidates who run on a solid message. That's more power. That's more power --
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: There is no intention from Republicans to represent these black people in Memphis. Not one Republican has a good idea to make life better for black people in Memphis, and that's not the point of what they're doing. The point is dominant --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: So, dominant --
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: -- and it's political power.
SEAT: -- black Democrat run?
PAYNE: They could.
SEAT: And try to make life better?
PAYNE: Oh, they could and they will.
SEAT: Then do it.
PAYNE: But here's the problem with this. Republicans aren't interested in black people having the type of representation that they deserve. They're interested in dominance and they're interested in fealty to Donald Trump.
SEAT: So, are they only represented when someone either looks like them or thinks like them?
PAYNE: That is -- if that is your takeaway from where we are right now, I think you have the wrong takeaway from where we've reached and the attack on black political power that we're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: But you're not answering the question.
PAYNE: I am.
EGBEWOLE: Well, I think Justin Pearson is -- to speak to Steve Cohen stepping out -- Justin Pearson will still run in that seat. I don't think that he will get very far. But I do want to point out one question that you asked of are we ready for a next generation? I think when we're having this conversation about the South, we're also talking about the Congressional Black Caucus that is going to be wiped out in a certain way. And --
PAYNE: Which is the point.
EGBEWOLE: Which is the point. And also, what is the new generation that is coming up? And I think this really forces a conversation which you did so well --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: But I think you could ask the members of the Congressional Black Caucus that question. Jim Clyburn has stood around for --
(CROSSTALK)
EGBEWOLE: And they've been asked for --
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: -- seventy years now, how long he's been there. Like, it's partly their job to identify and bring up that next generation of leadership, but they've held onto their seat.
PAYNE: Wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: So, you're saying the reason why we're in this place where the citizens of Memphis and the citizens of New Orleans aren't getting represented.
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: You're confusing what we're saying.
PAYNE: Is it Jim Clyburn's fault? This is about Jim Clyburn, what's going on right now.
(CROSSTALK)
SEAT: -- she just said.
PAYNE: No, I'm talking to you.
SEAT: She was talking about -- PAYNE: I'm talking to you.
SEAT: -- young representation --
PAYNE: Yes.
SEAT: -- and why there isn't more young representation.
PAYNE: You mean Jim Clyburn is the reason why there is a young representation?
SEAT: Yes, because he's still in office.
PAYNE: Okay. I think that's a bad faith argument.
SEAT: What has he done to prop up young people?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, look. I mean, one of the things about this Memphis situation I think we should remember is that Memphis is a city, and that city now has been split up into three separate districts --
PAYNE: Cracked like an egg.
PHILLIP: -- that span large swaths of the state designed to dilute the voting power of that municipality and black voters as a result. And that actually is not a district that was created for the purpose of representing black, or having black voters be a majority. It was created because Memphis is a city. And so, the idea that Republicans would crack up a city like that, even putting us race aside, that's, you know, I think that is sort of like the type of gerrymandering that I think Republicans would say is kind of bad for -- bad for democracy.
MOYNIHAN: Well, that's exactly what Virginia did. They took the biggest city in Virginia and try to make that part of every single district.
(CROSSTALK)
PAYNE: Yes, three million Virginians voted on it.
PHILLIP: Yes, but hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But listen.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You are right.
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: Every state is gerrymandering to benefit their own political party. It's not hard. (CROSSTALK)
PHLLIP: Lydia, you are right. But Republicans complained that that unfair in Virginia. And then they turned around and did the same thing in Tennessee. So --
MOYNIHAN: I'm not a fan of redistricting. My point is that every side does what they can to have as many political points as possible and to send as many representatives from their side as possible.
PAYNE: That is homogenizing this discussion.
MOYNIHAN: Redistricting is about political power.
PAYNE: That's not what this is about. This isn't about attack on black political power and suppressing the voice of black people in black cities.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, the panel is going to give us their nightcaps, Unity Song Edition. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:53:47]
PAUL MCCARTNEY, MUSICIAN: I mean particularly these days too, you do something like "Hey, Jude," and you see this whole audience singing together --
RICHARD OSMAN, "THE REST IS ENTERTAINMENT" HOST: Amazing.
MCCARTNEY: -- in Trump's America, and the Republicans and Democrats all at each other's throats -- when we do that song, they're not --
OSMAN: Yes.
MCCARTNEY: -- they're all loving it and all. It's like, wow, this is pretty amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Paul McCartney bringing people together with just one song. And so for tonight's News Nightcap, what would be your song to unite both parties? Lydia, you're up.
MOYNIHAN: "Dancing Queen," I feel like it's just ABBA gets everyone on the dance floor. It's all the generations. It's back. I love it. It's just a happy, feel-good song.
PHILLIP: Great song.
MOYNIHAN: I like that.
EGBEWOLE: September.
PHILLIP: Yes. EGBEWOLE: Earth, Wind and Fire.
PHILLIP: I would agree.
EGBEWOLE: Yes. Sing it and also dance to it.
PAYNE: I may have cheated a little bit. I picked "Grandma's Hands" by Bill Withers as a tribute to my grandmother, who's in poor health right now. Pansy Little Johnson -- and love to her. I'll be home to see you soon.
PHILLIP: Oh.
SEAT: One of the best concerts -- one of the best concerts I ever went to was Elton John, Billy Joel at Wrigley Field. And everyone was singing along to everything but the one song that really brings people together is "Piano Man."
[22:55:02]
PHILLIP: That is so true. "Piano Man" is a great song and honestly, most Billy Joel, you can get everybody to sing along to. Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." Catch "Table for Five" tomorrow at 10 A.M. Eastern. "Laura Coates Live" starts right after this. Have a great weekend.
