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Proud Boys Found Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired May 04, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): We are following breaking news this hour. A verdict has been reached in the seditious conspiracy trial against five members of the Proud Boys.

This trial really considered the centerpiece, the marquee of the prosecutions brought by the Justice Department surrounding the actions leading up to and on January 6th. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is outside the courthouse. She's joining me once again.

Katelyn, what's the latest you're hearing from inside the room?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Kate, we really are moments away from knowing what the result of this long, long trial, this long prosecution by the Justice Department is at this moment in time.

The jury is reading the verdicts that they have reached in the courtroom. We have a team watching this right now.

And what is happening here, what is at stake here is that this is the case against the five leaders of the Proud Boys, people that the Justice Department have accused of not just wanting to have a war against the U.S. government after the 2020 election, after Donald Trump's loss.

But then going to the Capitol on January 6th, revving up the crowd and being what the Justice Department says was the tip of the spear of the crowd of Trump supporters that broke into the Capitol.

The defense team have tried to distance these men, these five men on trial from Donald Trump, even though the former president during his candidacy told the Proud Boys "Stand back and stand by," at a public debate.

But the defense has said there was no plan, there was no conspiracy and we are waiting right now to see exactly what the jury has decided after seven days of deliberation.

BOLDUAN: All right, Katelyn's going to listen in as this is happening literally as we speak. Katelyn is going to jump back up as we learn more about this partial verdict -- Sara. SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Thank you so much, Kate. We now are going to talk to CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, who's here with us.

You see this coming down. They say this is a partial verdict. Explain exactly what that means, because there are a lot of charges here and there are five defendants.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: There's a lot of charges. It's five defendants and not every defendant is charged with every crime. My guess -- and we'll find this out in a few minutes -- is that they probably reached a verdict on some of the counts and might have hung on some of the other counts.

And when you have jurors hanging on counts, that means they could not come to a unanimous agreement on those charges and the jury is considered a hung jury. If that's the case, the Justice Department can choose to bring those charges again down the road.

That's a decision the attorney general and his advisers would have to make. So my guess, they were able to find unanimity in some cases. But as you said, it's complicated, both with the number of charges and the number of people and their relative different level of conduct. We'll just have to see where they landed on all of this.

SIDNER: We are going to go. We're going to hold you here, Elliot. Thank you so much.

We're going to go to Katelyn Polantz, who is outside the court, getting information from our two people inside the court.

What are you hearing, Katelyn?

POLANTZ: Well, four Proud Boys leaders have been found guilty by a jury of seditious conspiracy in a major case that the Justice Department brought after January 6th.

Those include Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the Proud Boys, who was not in Washington, D.C., on January 6th. So that makes him very unique among many of the January 6th defendants.

But the jury has found the government proved that these men wanted to overthrow the U.S. government or hinder it somehow by force. The jury has also found that the other three men are guilty of additional charges, other conspiracy charges.

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POLANTZ: There is one person on trial, though, a man named Dominic Pezzola. He was seen breaking a window at the Capitol and was accused of using a riot shield to break that window.

There haven't been verdicts read about Dominic Pezzola at this time. But the four men convicted -- the four men found guilty by the jury today -- Enrique Tarrio as well as Zachary Rehl, Ethan Nordean and Joseph Biggs. Those are the leaders and the ones the Justice Department is accusing

of planning together and moving on January 6th in a way that essentially, in the prosecutor's words, was trying to start a war in the United States.

SIDNER: Wow, that a really important verdict. You said four people and that includes the leader of the Proud Boys, Enrique Tarrio, who has stepped down but he wasn't there. So this is quite significant to see this verdict come out.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Historic we can say. Joining us now CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.

John, we're going to learn more in the next couple of minutes about exactly who was convicted of which charge here. But the big picture here is there have been convictions on seditious conspiracy for the Proud Boys. Talk to me about the significance of that, about what this means for domestic extremism in this country.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this follows the case of the Oath Keepers, where you saw similar verdicts against another group that organized and showed up in a coordinated fashion on January 6th.

So this is sending a signal that there are serious consequences to domestic groups that decide to interfere with the workings of democracy.

That's the big signal. I think the extension of that question is, what happens to groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys? Do they survive this?

Do they go away?

Do they gain strength from people who want to be part of this resistance?

The Proud Boys has an interesting history is that it was started as a joke by Gavin McInnes as kind of a satire of male chauvinism and patriotism and then got away from him when they started actually having fights with Antifa groups.

A number of Proud Boys were arrested when I was in the NYPD intelligence bureau for attacking Antifa protesters outside a Republican club. They were convicted and faced jail time.

That was when Gavin McInnes distanced himself from the group, when the group found new leadership that took it from being a satire to being kind of an alt-right fight club, the white version.

And, you know, in Washington, just days before January 6th, in a December rally, they ended up in a fight with suspected Antifa people on the street. Enrique Tarrio was arrested for possession of a knife and magazines containing ammunition, which is why he wasn't there on January 6th. He was in a hotel room in Baltimore. So you've seen this group morph

but also grow into an national organization. Canada has listed it as a terrorist group.

BOLDUAN: As you're describing how it started is also almost how the defense team tried to present their case in court. I think the way they tried to present it at times was a glorified drinking club.

And also I thought important as we have seen in other prosecutions related to January 6th, trying to put this on the feet of Donald Trump, saying that was not these guys, it was Donald Trump.

In closing arguments I think it was Enrique Tarrio's attorney, called, said Tarrio was a scapegoat for Trump and those in power. And that's what DOJ was trying to do. That turn in all of this, when it comes to the defense teams and how they tried to turn this and say, no, this really was on Donald Trump and all of these people are scapegoats because of it is an interesting twist.

MILLER: That is interesting because go back to the Oath Keepers' trial. And the Oath Keepers is kind of a running joke that the Proud Boys were -- these are former military, former law enforcement, people with training.

That's how they, you know, had that bearing with their tactical gear and communication systems. But the Proud Boys, you know, were on the receiving end of, you know, that message from Donald Trump, "Stand back and stand by."

Stand by for what?

And after the message that he gave about "protesters should come to Washington," you know, that went out on December 19th, we're going to have a wild protest, the Proud Boys formed a subgroup called the Ministry of Defense.

And Enrique Tarrio was the head of that. They were looking for tough guys. They were looking for fighters.

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MILLER: They set up an encrypted chat app. And all of this is kind of the evidence that was promoted at -- that was brought before the trial by the prosecution, to say there was organization behind this, there was premeditation, there was a system.

SIDNER: And that is why Enrique Tarrio is one of the four found guilty in this, because it was about the planning, not necessarily about the execution. There were other charges for that.

I want to go straight back out to Katelyn Polantz, who is outside the court with more details for us now -- Katelyn.

POLANTZ: Sara, I'm getting a live readout of what the jury is reading in the courtroom, the verdicts that they have come to. And they actually have reached a verdict on many of the counts, maybe just one or two they have not reached a verdict on. We're still waiting because they're still reading.

But all five Proud Boys who are on trial, who have been on trial for several months, have been found guilty by this jury on various charges. There are some charges where some of the leaders have been found not guilty specifically related to assaulting officers.

But all five men, there have been convictions that are being secured by the Justice Department.

Right now, first and foremost, seditious conspiracy, four of these men: Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the Proud Boys; Zachary Rehl, Joseph Biggs, Ethan Nordean -- all four of those men are found guilty of seditious conspiracy, a plot potentially to overthrow the government on January 6th after the 2020 election.

And I was just looking back at what we have learned from this trial. And one of the things -- I wanted to read one of the things that the prosecutor had argued to the jury and the jury clearly agreed with, after listening to all of this evidence, seeing video, seeing audio, seeing text messages between these men.

This was an issue where the Capitol was the focus from the start, the prosecutor said. They were there to threaten and, if necessary, use force to stop the certification of the election.

And when Capitol Police officers were testifying and when their audio recordings were playing in court, when they were calling for backup on the Capitol, as the Proud Boys and others were entering into the Capitol, breaking windows, herding (ph) barriers of the police, prosecutors say that those radio calls are the sound of a 200-year tradition of the peaceful transfer of power being shattered.

So really a substantial verdict for the Justice Department and quite a historic moment in bringing to justice men who took part and were interested in the violence on January 6th.

BERMAN: All right, Katelyn, we'll let you listen more. Fill us in when you get more information.

Meanwhile, John Miller is literally right next to me, working his sources as we speak.

In the meantime, I want to go to CNN justice correspondent Evan Perez in Washington.

Evan -- a surprise appearance from Elliot Williams there, attorney.

Evan, I want to ask you right away, the seditious conspiracy charge is a historic charge. It's something that federal prosecutors very much wanted and they now have convictions. Talk to me about the significance of that effort and the convictions.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SR. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, it's a very rarely brought charge for the Justice Department.

As a matter of fact, you know, some of the -- you know, this case and some of the others, focusing on some of the leading figures that you saw in the violence on January 6th, some of these cases began under the Trump administration before the new -- the new administration took over.

And for a while it appeared there was some doubt inside the Justice Department about whether these cases on seditious conspiracy were going to go forward. In the end, the attorney general reviewed all the cases and he made sure he believed that the evidence was there.

And that's when they brought these charges. In all, you know, they've targeted a number of Oath Keepers; I think 29 Oath Keepers in all have been -- have been prosecuted in these cases.

Again, the focus here has been on the people who carried out the violence, the people who you see in all of those videos, in those, you know, just harrowing videos from the officers' body cameras, showing them attacking police officers for hours.

And in the case of these five men, the Proud Boys, this is a marquee trial for the Justice Department. Again, we're going to wait to see some of the verdicts that we have not yet gotten details on.

But for the Justice Department, getting the seditious conspiracy guilty verdicts on at least four of these men is a big deal. Again, it's something that the Justice Department thought long and hard, because of obviously the political overtones of this.

But you know, you have to look back on January 6th and realize that what the former president and some of these people, who thought they were his foot soldiers --

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PEREZ: -- were trying to do was impede the transfer of power. That's what the Justice Department really emphasized during this trial.

BOLDUAN: John Miller sticking here with us.

John, you've been working your sources as well.

What are you picking up on, what happens to these guys now we've got these?

MILLER: Well, you've got these convictions to sentencing. There'll be a probation report which kind of delves into their lives and histories and so on and their lawyers will argue.

But seditious conspiracy, that's a 10 year count, that is serious jail time they're facing. And that's going to have an impact for questions of, who's going to want to be in the leadership of the Proud Boys if they are going to continue down this path?

On the other hand, what we've seen in these groups as they morph and grow is national leadership can be largely irrelevant. We've seen Proud Boy chapters independently spawning in cities across the country. We have seen on our own broadcasts, as we've covered the controversy

around drag queen story hours, Proud Boys showing up in full military uniform with AR-15 rifles, loaded magazines in states where open carry is allowed and lining the other side of the street, where a library is, where children are coming for these stories.

So this is an organization that is growing on an idea and that is growing on a narrative and that is growing without national leadership.

SIDNER: I just want to mention that I'm seeing now which of the four of the five who got what. And the reason why four of these members got seditious conspiracy is because they were leaders either of their chapter or of the group at large. Of course Enrique Tarrio and Joseph Biggs was a leader within the organization.

One was a leader in Philadelphia, the other a leader in Florida. So the jury looked at that and said, if you are leading this organization from wherever part of the country you came from, you planned this. You plotted this and you are guilty of seditious conspiracy.

The only person interestingly that didn't get seditious conspiracy conviction, Dominic Pezzola, the person who used the officer's shield to smash through the window. They saw him as a lower member of the --

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BOLDUAN: That was the other charge he was facing, right?

SIDNER: He faces other charges.

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BERMAN: And convicted of other charges.

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SIDNER: All right, let us go to Elliot Williams now.

We're hearing now also that the judge has told this jury, who's given this verdict, partial verdict, because it's not every single count, to go back to the jury room and continue to deliberate.

How unusual is this?

And what is the judge basically asking them to do?

Is it that they're deadlocked on something you think or what?

WILLIAMS: Not unusual at all, Sara. It is incredibly common for juries to say, look, we've tried, we've deliberated, we've talked about these charges but we simply can't come to a point of unanimity on one or two or three of them. It happens, I hesitate to say in every trial I ever did. But it happens quite frequently, right?

The view of the court is, no, it is the obligation of the judge to ensure that the jurors get as close as they can to unanimity on every count. Now you can't force them to do that. But often, when jurors think they're not unanimous, they can actually get there if they negotiate or debate more.

So typically you'll see them come back two or three or however many times, saying they can't come to an agreement. And then usually it's after a few times of saying, look, we've got one or two holdouts in here. We simply can't come to an agreement.

It's then and only then the judge will declare a mistrial on those counts and just let the other verdicts that they came to move forward.

SIDNER: That is very interesting. I should also mention, I sat down with Enrique Tarrio several times but once for a very long period of time. And he, himself, said, look, I think that we -- people shouldn't have gone into the Capitol.

He didn't have any sympathy for what happened to the Congress people who were there in dealing with this terrifying moment. But he did on camera say, I don't think that our members should have gone into the Capitol. And he said that he did not plan this.

So it is interesting because the evidence that they have, clearly the jury looked at 18 weeks of evidence and said, uh-uh, we don't believe you. You were part of this, you're going down for this as well.

BERMAN: Let's bring in Evan Perez.

And we've been talking about the seditious conspiracy charge but obstruction of an official proceeding also one of the charges for which there's been some convictions. Bring us up to speed on what's going on there.

PEREZ: John, on count two, which is conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, the guilty verdicts were for Nordean, Biggs, Rehl and Tarrio.

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PEREZ: But not for Pezzola. There's been no verdict. That appears to be what the judge is asking the jury to go back and see if they can reach a verdict on, along with a couple of other charges they've reached no verdict on.

That one is interesting because it has been untested. There have been some appeals courts -- one of the appeals courts has ruled that it is a valid charge and it is something they've upheld. Again, something that I think Justice Department officials were a little bit wary of and weren't sure whether the courts were going to uphold that.

What happened, what was happening at the Capitol that day was an official proceeding. And, you know, so far, again, the courts have upheld it. But there are some more legal challenges that we expect to come from that charge.

And that's an important one, because, again, many of the people who went into the Capitol, where 1,000 people have been charged now, they've been charged with this charge. And it's one of the things that prosecutors have really relied on, to try to -- again, to try to make people who went into the building --

-- some of them who carried out violence, for them to pay a price for what happened on January 6th.

So It is going to be interesting to see, again, in the coming months, when we see additional challenges of this charge, whether it holds up. For now, the courts have ruled that it is OK for people to be charged with this for what they did on January 6th.

And for now, for today's verdict, it appears that the jury has not been able to reach a verdict on Dominic Pezzola, who is one of the prominent faces you see in some of those videos that have been shown from January 6th.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Evan, stick with us.

John Miller, stick with us.

Elliot Williams, please stick with us as well. We have much more coming in.

The jury now back deliberating but, very importantly, guilty of seditious conspiracy; four members of the Proud Boys who have been on trial, a four-month long trial, the jury handing back a guilty verdict on the serious charge of seditious conspiracy. Much more coming in from the courtroom. We'll be right back after this.

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SIDNER: Breaking at this hour, at least four members of the Proud Boys have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy. This in connection to their actions on and around January 6th, 2021, and the attack on the Capitol.

Our reporters and guests are back with us.

Katelyn Polantz, we are going to go to you first. You are outside the court. You're getting information from inside the court.

What more are you learning?

POLANTZ: Sara, I'm learning the jury is going to be deliberating on just a couple things here. But the Justice Department has secured major convictions for all five members of the Proud Boys, leaders of the Proud Boys, and people who were leading the charge at the Capitol on January 6th. Those men are Enrique Tarrio, the chairman of the Proud Boys; Zachary

Rehl, Joseph Biggs and Dominic Pezzola, a man who is seen in many images, breaking into the Capitol with a police riot shield in a window, climbing in there at what prosecutors say was the tip of the spear at the U.S. Capitol.

Leading the rioters around the back of the building to get inside. That really caused things to unravel that day for police that were trying to protect the building.

And this prosecution and this conviction is so important because it is not just about what happened on January 6th; it is about the planning that the prosecutors are able to argue here and how they have been able to prove to the jury that these men wanted something like this to happen on January 6th.

That the Proud Boys were coming together as a team and they wanted to create something similar to a war on the grounds of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th. The prosecution has not yet gotten some sort of result on just a couple things.

But those are relatively minor compared to the seditious conspiracy charge, where the jury has decided that these men are guilty. There's just a few things where Dominic Pezzola, that man with the riot shield, there's not a verdict for him on a couple of counts.

There was also the issue of a throwing of a water bottle and a charge to that, that someone else in the crowd threw a water bottle, the jury has not reached a verdict on that.

But that is really relatively minor, compared to what the jury has found today. And this is monumental for the Justice Department, especially because they were able to secure convictions for several of the Oath Keepers related to seditious conspiracy charges, too.

Now the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, those two groups that were at the Capitol on January 6th and were interested in coming together, planning, that they had suited up, that they were communicating to one another, juries are bringing them to justice in this federal court in D.C.

BOLDUAN: All right, Katelyn, standby for us at the courthouse.

Let me bring in Evan Perez on a couple of things.

Evan, count one was the charge on seditious conspiracy, as we know. We've seen 10 counts also on other charges that have been brought against some.

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