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Jury Finds Trump Liable For Sexually Abusing And Defaming E. Jean Carroll. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 09, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:02]

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, everyone abided by that. But as the three -- the judge's law clerk was reading the verdict and that first count finding in Carroll's favor, you could see that she had a sense of relief. She was holding one of her attorney's hands as the verdict was being read. And you could see moments of, you know, relief, a smile come across her face.

Nothing was audible though from her table or from Trump's attorneys' table. And once the verdict was completed reading and the jury was escorted out, Carroll had another side hug with another one of her lawyers. And then Trump's attorney Joe Tacopina walked over to the plaintiff's table. He shook E. Jean Carroll's hand and shook the hands of each of her attorneys.

Now we are waiting for them to exit the courthouse to see if either side has a statement. E. Jean Carroll has previously spoken about this case though. I would expect she will say something and address the cameras. But they are taking their time leaving the courtroom today after this, you know, trial. We are in our ninth day of the trial, including both the closing and the opening arguments --

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Kara, sorry to interrupt. Kara, but here is E. Jean Carroll exiting courtroom right now. Let's listen if she has a comment.

It does not appear that E. Jean Carroll is going to be speaking to the cameras, but I think her smile, a very broad smile, says it all.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And Kara Scannell saying she was holding her attorney's hand as the jury read its verdict.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes, I mean it'll be interesting to see what she says. If there's a statement or something following this. But she didn't come out and revel before a microphone and obviously, so easily, she could have, you know, answered any questions that she wanted. You heard the reporters there shouting questions at her as we replay the video of E. Jean Carroll holding the hands of her attorneys. Leaving the courtroom victorious. There is no other way to put it here.

But former President Donald Trump being found liable for battery, sexually abusing E. Jean Carroll, is what the jury found and for defamation. Damages totaling nearly $5 million in this case. And as we just heard, of course is going to be an appeal. Of course, this is going to be tied up for some time. But this is a victory for this -- for her.

SCIUTTO: It is for a woman who -- well, according to her sworn testimony in the courtroom, carried the burden of this, the trauma of this for some, well, close to three decades.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and notably as we are discussing the possibility of E. Jean Carroll speaking publicly about this, in the closing moments of the trial, the judge actually told jurors that they could now identify themselves publicly, but that he advises against that. Saying they shouldn't -- not now and not for a long time. Let's go to Kara Scannell who is in the courtroom watching all of this. Kara, talk to us about that moment and what you saw.

SCANNELL: Yes, in the -- you know, as the judge came out and said that they had reached a verdict, his clerk was then reading it out. So, you know, on each count there were a number of questions that they were asked to check a box on. And so, as the clerk reading this and the first count went in E. Jean Carroll's favor, as she was holding her attorney's hand. She's looking forward. She seems to have a sense of relief on her face, and kind of a leaning forward, nodding forward as he continued to read the counts which were going in her favor.

You know, he did ask for a no audible reaction. So, we didn't see or hear anything, you know, exclamatory after it came out. But she looked pleased. And then once the verdict was completed being read and getting awarded $5 million, you know, she gave one of her other attorneys a hug. She was sitting between the two of them.

And then after the jury was escorted out of the room, Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina came over and shook E. Jean Carroll's hand and he shook the hands of all of her attorneys. It had been a very cordial trial actually. Neither side was slinging mud at the other. They were all being very respectful, and we saw that continue even after this verdict went against the former president. His attorney shaking E. Jean Carroll's hand.

You know, the judge did tell the jurors that they could talk to the press if they wanted to. They could talk to anyone about this trial if they wanted to. But he said that if they chose to, which he advised them against, he asked if they would not give the identity of any other jurors. The judge made this jury anonymous, because he was concerned about, you know, some of the public statements that the former president has made. As he took a precaution in the case. You know, and that will be up to the jurors to see if they wanted to discuss how they came to this conclusion -- Jim.

SANCHEZ: I just wanted to point out that Donald Trump has apparently sent out a message on Truth Social. It is in all caps claiming not to know who E. Jean Carroll is. He calls verdict a disgrace. Quote, a continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all time.

[15:35:00]

And the former president is clearly not thrilled of this verdict that found him liable for roughly $5 million in damages.

SCIUTTO: Right, witch hunt is the phrase he's used in response to many claims of wrongdoing him, and the not knowing someone. Whether it's an aide, or a member of the administration, is also a frequent defense.

Is Jean Casarez -- if you're still with us? You've been covering this for some time. I wonder -- in contacts with Jean Carroll's team throughout, can you give us a sense to her reaction to this, relief, what she's put into this, and how she approached this coming in?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm sure relief and just verification that she had the courage to bring this, and that a jury believed her. I mean, it's very simple to have that emotion inside of you right now. I am sure stunning. I am sure she is in shock. And I am sure that she is relishing in the moment right now. Because you're right, it has been 27 years. So, it's a long time.

And finally, because of the Adult Survivors' Act, that's why she was even able to bring this case. And these cases are very difficult to prove as you have spoken about. But it was consistent with what she said prior bad act witnesses, her friends. Of course, they did not find him liable for the most heinous of all, the rape. But she needs to be prepared also for the appeal that's going to come. Because I am sure it is going to be stringent.

And what I saw by watching -- listening to this trial, reading transcripts, the defense team felt that the judge was biased in the rulings, and there were numerous pretrial rulings, rulings during the trial. I think that could form the basis for an appeal. And also, one of the theories of the case was that this case continued to go forward because of financing. Financing from someone in the Democrat Party that wanted this case to go forward because of their hatred for Donald Trump.

The defense was allowed to depose E. Jean Carroll the week before trial, to specifically ask her about that. But the judge ultimately ruled it would not come into this trial. And there was some testimony that danced around that, but I think that will be a major issue on appeal. Whether the appeal will go anywhere, we don't know, but appeals take time.

And I will tell you, Harvey Weinstein's conviction in New York, they appealed and that appeal is still alive and it is going to the highest court in New York. Because of all those prior bad act witnesses that testified. So, you've got to be careful. Because his verdict in New York, it could conceivably be overturned, that criminal verdict. And that will come up probably later this year.

KEILAR: That's a very, very good point. I want to ask Dave Aronberg, as we noted the judge telling jurors before he dismissed them, Judge Lewis Kaplan, saying that his advice to them was to not identify themselves. He said, not now and not for a long time. And then he said to them basically, if you do identify yourself, don't identify anyone else on the jury, because each of you owes that to the other, whatever you decide for yourself. Explain -- I mean, think we understand a little bit of why, but why do you think he said that to the jury? DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: You know,

Brianna, this judge, Judge Kaplan, is really careful about publicity. That there were no cameras in the court, and there were no cameras in federal court. But he's also -- went out of his way to make sure that the names and identity of the jurors were concealed.

That's something that you normally get in mob cases, in mafia trials. You don't normally see that in a civil trial, especially one involving someone who is supposed to be of, you know, high character because he's a presidential candidate. But you're seeing it here.

And so, this judge, Judge Kaplan was so worried that Trump supporters would attack the jury or at least try to tamper with the jurors that he isolated them. He made them private just like you would do in a mob trial. And so, now that the case is over, he's still worried about their safety. Which tells you a lot about the political environment that we're in.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's a great point. It's a worrisome point. Right? I mean, he protected them. He stepped in to protect them because he felt a need to protect them.

SANCHEZ: As we've seen so often with anyone that has publicly opposed the former president or even taken steps to go after him legally -- as we have seen with the officials in Georgia. With officials, the former special council, with the current special council. Many times, supporters of the former president at least online and as we've seen playing out in real life, are very aggressive in the defense of him.

KEILAR: But look, they get picked apart publicly, reputationally and their lives become a living hell often, and then the next step there is that they worry -- for a good reason -- about their personal safety. And that really is what the judge is saying when he speaking to them about this.

[15:40:00]

SCIUTTO: You know, one point about what the jury had to determine here -- and I do want to go back to one of our lawyers -- yes, it's a lower standard because it's a civil case, not a criminal case. Preponderance of the evidence basically above 50 percent as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt like you would have in a criminal trial. It did have to meet several standards. For instance, on the defamation, they had to determine not just one of these things.

But all of the things that the statement denying it was defamatory, that the statement would reasonably be understood to be about Carroll and that Trump published statement himself. But these other elements as well. That it was false and that it was done with malice, right? That and other words -- and I wonder if you could you speak to this more, Jennifer Rodgers. While it is a civil case with a lower standard, the test to reach a liable verdict here are not insignificant tests or standards to meet.

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, for the defamation part in particular, you are right, Jim, that it is a heightened standard because E. Jean Carroll was a public figure. And so, to defame a public figure is harder to do. You have to prove if you are a public figure, and you say that someone has defamed you, you have to meet a heightened standard, because we're usually entitled to say things about a public figure, right. So, it is a preponderance for the most part, but with this heightened standard for defamation. Which means the jury did find that those standards were met when they found him liable on that defamation claim.

KEILAR: This is, I think, also just very unusual we should say having passed so many years since this allegedly happened -- well, not allegedly. The jury has determined that it did happen back in 1996. Because even though there is this period of time, reopening the chance for people like E. Jean Carroll to take their case to civil court. The fact is, it's just a very difficult case to prove and yet she was still able to do it. And that is significant in this case. After so many years, she was able to make this case about a decades' old sexual assault, and that's something that you rarely see.

SANCHEZ: Especially in the face of that cross-examination from Trump's attorneys. Legal experts that we spoken to on the air have told us that it was a very sort of kind of old school way to question an accuser's credibility and go after her for things like her emotional state or the date that it happened. It is unusual, but at the end of the day, a victory for E. Jean Carroll.

SCIUTTO: If you're just joining us now, you can see it in the banner there, a jury has awarded E. Jean Carroll close to $5 million in a civil case against the former president finding him liable for both sexually abusing her and defaming her. Please stay with us. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: All right, we are following our breaking news this afternoon. A verdict has just come in, in the battery and defamation trial against former President Donald Trump. He has been found liable. E. Jean Carroll, of course, alleging that he had raped her back in 1996 in a department store in Manhattan.

These are pictures of her leaving the courtroom, clearly happy just moments ago. Happy with what has been a victory for her here. But this is how it all broke down.

The former president being found liable for battery, for sexually abusing E. Jean Carroll. There was a measure they could have gone higher on rape. The jury determined not to do that. They also could have gone lesser, and they did not do that either. $2 million in damages for that, and nearly $3 million in damages for being found liable for defamation. So, we're looking at nearly $5 million in damages overall here. I do want to listen to some sound of her lawyers talking about what this means.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're very happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are so brave and beautiful. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So that is a reaction. We didn't hear whether that happened live on the air. It was hard to hear initially. So, you heard her clearly there and actually said I'm very happy, as she smiled, as she walked into the car waiting to take her away.

SANCHEZ: And meantime, the former president is responding in all caps on social media. Asking -- or saying, rather, quote, I have absolutely no idea who this woman is. He calls the verdict a disgrace. Calling it a continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all time.

SCIUTTO: And as Brianna was noting there, it's both the liable findings -- remember this is a civil and not criminal case -- but also the compensatory and punitive damages amounting to close the $5 million.

Our Kara Scannell has been covering this trial since the beginning. And Kara, it seems that not long ago, you and I were talking about the jury just going into deliberations, and here we are after -- well, under three hours of deliberations -- where they came to this verdict. You were in the courtroom as the verdict was read.

SCANNELL: Ok, sorry, I am joining you. I'm joining you.

SCIUTTO: Well, we have both Kara Scannell and Paula Reid there who've been covering the trial. Kara, just give us a view from inside the courtroom. Because I think folks wanting -- would benefit from hearing that.

SCANNELL: Yes, I mean, Jim, after the judge informed the parties that there was a verdict, everyone assembled into the courtroom. And his clerk was the one that actually read through each of the allegations, the charges and where the jury found them.

And when they found that first one in favor of E. Jean Carroll, which was that they found -- the jury found that Trump had sexually abused Carroll. She was looking straight forward holding the hands of one of her attorneys and she appeared to have a sense of relief. She didn't have any kind of an audible reaction.

[15:50:00]

The judge asked everyone to have some decorum. But she seemed to be relieved. And then as they continued, the clerk continued to read through the rest of the counts which all went in her favor, including the $5 million in total damages that the jury awarded her, you know, she just -- she was holding her lawyer's hand. They were glancing at each other smiling and she seemed to be wrapping forward at times. You know, just kind of taking it all in.

After the judge had dismissed the jury, and you know, said that they were discharged from their duties, we saw Trump's lawyer, Joe Tacopina, walk over to E. Jean Carroll and shake her hand. He also shook the hands of her attorneys. You know, this was a very cordial trial, despite what is at stake here, and despite the allegations. And w saw that through to the finish. That there was, as you know, at least amount of respect there about how this was, you know, frankly a hard-fought victory. And you know, 27 years, but also in court over these nine days of testimony and deliberations.

And it was a quick deliberation, just a little more than two and a half hours of the jury had this case after hearing closing arguments yesterday. So, a pretty quick verdict in this case. I mean, as she left, she didn't issue any statement. I'm told she will have a statement coming soon. But, you know, certainly just a big moment for her. There wasn't a lot of emotion displayed. But she did -- she was smiling. She looked happy. She did exchange a little side hug with another one of her attorneys before she left the courtroom -- Jim.

SANCHEZ: And Paula, you have been covering not only this case but so many of the other legal challenges that the former president is facing. It was just a few weeks ago that he was presented with 34 indictments in Manhattan, not far from the courthouse where you are right now. Put this decision into the context of all the other legal cases that former president Donald Trump is facing.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kara and I have both been covering the former President Trump's various legal issues for several years now. And to put this in context. I mean, his private attorneys are far more concerned about the criminal case, just a few blocks from here, that as you noted, where he was charged just a few weeks ago for the first time in a criminal court.

But they are most concerned about what could potentially happen down in Georgia with the investigation into his alleged efforts to interfere with that election. And they are also watching very closely any potential criminal charges that could be brought by special counsel Jack Smith. Either related to January 6th or related to the possible handling of classified documents, or efforts to obstruct that probe.

So again, this is a civil case. Of course, they absolutely would have liked to win this case. But as Kara has reported, as I've reported, they didn't even put on a defense here. And I can tell you that the lawyers in the criminal cases that the former president is facing or maybe facing, they were very concerned about him getting on the stand in this case. And if you saw portions of the deposition in this case, you can see why.

Because again, this is a civil case. Ultimately, it is about liability. But that comes down not to jail time, but to money. And they were concerned, if he was to take the stand here, what other questions, what other issues could come up that could potentially expose him to criminal liability? So, in the broader scheme of all of the legal threats that he is facing, they were certainly worried about this. But they are far more concerned about the other more imminent threats, particularly Georgia, and then also the special counsel.

KEILAR: Let's go ahead and bring in Joey Jackson to join the conversation here. Joey, when you look at the findings today, how significant is this?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brianna, it's very significant, right? I mean, courts are places where you go to vindicate victims' rights. And this was a right that Ms. Carroll really wanted to vindicate. She brought the claim, of course, because of the statute of limitation that allowed her to bring forward at least the battery claim as it related to the rape. Because of the New York Survivors Act of which I speak. Which allowed and permitted something that would've otherwise not been permitted to come forward in court.

In addition to that, we know about the defamation claim. And when you're a person who has had, you know, something stolen from you, as we heard the psychologist testify and the intrusive memories she gets. And you know, what her relationships look like, what compassion looks like for her and everything else. To now go into a court of law and be savaged under cross examination, why didn't you scream? Who did you tell? Why didn't you write a police report? Don't you hate Donald Trump? Aren't you conspiring against him?

After waiting all this time, and now bringing your claim in front of a nine-person jury and having that jury evaluate every witness, all 11 witnesses, and to have that jury in accord with you with respect to what happened, has got to be a very big deal for her.

And remember, although we can speak about the monetary damage amount, the 5 million that wasn't what this was all about for her, as her lawyers noted in closing arguments, Brianna. It was about just that vindication and getting justice for what she felt was a significant injustice. Well guess what?

[15:55:00]

The jury felt likewise and they said that in their civil verdict of liable of battery, as to the rape, and as to defamation, as to calling her a liar and a hoax.

SCIUTTO: Joey Jackson, just to our understanding here, and you can speak better to this being a lawyer, is that a person is liable for sexual abuse when he subjects another person to sexual contact without consent. The person would be guilty -- or sorry, I should say liable for rape when a person forces sexual intercourse with another person without their consent.

Based on the evidence as presented, can you understand how the jury believes the evidence, met liability for sexual abuse as opposed to rape in these circumstances?

JACKSON: Yes, you could. I mean, jurors, Jim, have to assess a lot. Remember that. And remember that this was many years ago in the 90s. And as a result of that, Ms. Carroll, there is no specific police report. But there were two recent outcry witnesses. What are they? They are friends of hers who she confided in and said, hey, this happened to me. And she did it contemporaneous to when it occurred. Giving them the indication of when it happened, where it happened and how she felt about it happening.

In addition to that, of course -- and I'm speaking of the evidence -- the jury weighed the "Access Hollywood" video tape as it relates to what Mr. Trump said he did to other women. And then there were two other women who came forward and said he grabbed or groped or engaged in inappropriate comments with me.

So, I cannot parse out and know precisely, Jim, what the actual jurors, you know, decided ultimately. I can tell you that they decided on the civil issue of liability, which is battery, the unwanted touching without consent, that he was absolutely responsible for that. And as a result of that, and a quick verdict, held him accountable. And that's what justice and that's what courtrooms are for. For evidence to be aired, for accountability ultimately to take place, and for everyone to have their day in court. She did, and this is the result. Liable of battery, liable of defamation.

SANCHEZ: And Joey, as someone who has covered so many of these cases, as we take a look at the breakdown of the jury, I believe these six men and three women, all nine of them had to unanimously agree on this verdict. Of the moments that we learned about in testimony, which do you think, perhaps, swayed the jury the most? And obviously, we would have to wait for the actual jury to speak out -- something that the judge instructed them or advise them rather, not to do for fear of some kind of retribution. But in your mind, given so much compelling testimony and cross-examination, what do you think most ways on jurors and cases like this?

JACKSON: So, Boris, it's an excellent question. And I would have to say the collective weight of the evidence. Certainly, we know that Ms. Carroll took the stand. She was on the stand for three days. She subjected herself to a brutal cross-examination in which her memory was challenged, her motivations were challenged, her humanity was challenged, et cetera. And in addition to that, you have the recent outcry witnesses who she confided in, of which I spoke. In addition to that, you have the "Access Hollywood" video, which goes to show motivation. This is your modus operandi.

You have the two additional women who said, hey, this happened to me. You have the psychologist, which really gave some context with respect to, hey, women don't scream. And then the event that, you know, they do, you know, you can't evaluate or base someone's credibility upon the facts they're not shouting and screaming. Addressing the police report, addressing her memory, addressing a number of things.

And then of course, the marketing expert which spoke to the actual dollar amount and how many times, and how many people, up to 18 million would have seen this. And about 5 million potentially believing, right, Donald Trump's claims that this was a hoax, and she's a liar. So, in answer to your question, Boris, while it's tough to pinpoint

anyone thing, I think the collective weight of the evidence in this case really establish her claims. And that she was indeed violated, violated by Mr. Trump. And indeed, that he defamed her in doing so. And so, I just think the jury heard all the evidence, evaluated what they had to see before them, and rendered a conclusion which they thought was just, fair and appropriate under the circumstances.

KEILAR: They listen to a lot of evidence. They listened to a lot of testimony, two accounts, those friends of hers who had said that she told them about this. And a lot of experts explaining why victims may behave the way they do. And they appeared to have believed those witnesses that they heard from. That this is, you know, very significant here. Almost $5 million in damages as this jury finds Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming E. Jean Carroll.

SCIUTTO: And the jury had to meet a lot of standards and answer a lot of questions, yes, in effect to reach that determination of liability on both the defamation and the sexual abuse here. And as the graphic noted just a moment ago, had to be anonymous. So, the jury of nine -- nine people had to be anonymous in those decisions.

[16:00:00]

SANCHEZ: And you also have to wonder how the former president is going to approach this. What an appeal might look? And this is just one of so many legal cases he is waging or he's fighting as he's trying to run for president. So, a lot going on in the former president's camp right now.

KEILAR: Certainly. Our Thanks to our panel and our reporters and to you for spending your time with us this afternoon. Jake Tapper picks up our coverage right now.