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Santos Faces Charges; House Alleges Biden Family Received Payments from Foreign Entities; Trump to Appear at Town Hall. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired May 10, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: If they can prove that, then that will make out the wire fraud claims.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NEWS CENTRAL ANCHOR: And you made the point that this has happened fairly fast. So we -

HONIG: Yes.

SIDNER: You know, the evidence, they have to have it in order to go forward with this, obviously. They've got paperwork and we will have to see.

We do have something now coming out from the court. Brynn Gingras is joining us now live. She's got an update for us. A statement, I understand, from the DOJ.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

Sara, we learned that the grand jury returned this indictment yesterday and now we have this 13-count indictment. A statement, I want to read it in full to you. It's quite long. It says, this indictment seeks to hold Santos accountable for various alleged fraudulent schemes and brazen misrepresentations. Taken together, the allegations in the indictment charge Santos with relying on repeated dishonesty and deception to ascend to the halls of Congress and enrich himself. He used political contributions to line his pockets, unlawfully applied for unemployment benefits that should have gone to New Yorkers who had lost their jobs due to the pandemic, and lied to the House of Representatives. My office and our law enforcement partners will continue to aggressively root out corruption and self- dealing from our communities' public institutions and hold public officials accountable to the constituents who elected them.

And, of course, he went into office just in January, but we know that the investigations into him were before that. My colleague Mark Morales is learning from sources that Santos actually turned himself into the FBI office in Melville, New York, and was then taken here to the federal courthouse. And that's why we didn't actually see him drive up and go in.

But he is in custody right now. We do expect him to go before a judge on these 13 charges. It's unclear of that timing as of now. But a pretty strong statement there from the DOJ.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL ANCHOR: All right. Brynn Gingras, keep on doing your reporting.

Just to review, if you're just tuning in now, Republican Congressman George Santos of New York is in federal custody right now. Federal authorities have unsealed a 13-count indictment, charging him with seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering and one count of theft of public funds, two counts of making materially false statements to the House of Representatives.

Our justice correspondent Evan Perez back with us now.

And based on what Brynn just said there, Evan, there includes a charge here about basically unemployment fraud. There are charges in here that have to do with Santos as a public figure, as a candidate. And then there's this, just unemployment fraud.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. Exactly. Right. Exactly. In 2020, of course, we're in the middle of the pandemic. Congress passes additional unemployment aid for people who are struggling. And George Santos, according to prosecutors, jumps into action, takes advantage of this. Again, according to this indictment, he was receiving about $24,744, almost $25,000, he was getting from New York state department of labor as part of his unemployment benefits when at the same time he was also getting a salary. So, he was not in need of this money, like so many millions of Americans who were, of course, not able to work during the pandemic. He was getting about $120,000 per year and yet, he, according to prosecutors, applied for unemployment benefits and received that, was getting this -- this unemployment benefit of $25,000 deposited into his bank account. That's just one of the frauds that is detailed here in these - in these pages from this indictment that the Justice Department has now filed against him.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL ANCHOR: Evan, stick with us.

Elie, I wanted to - I know you're looking through the indictment right now, but I wanted to ask you about - about that. Based -- applying for unemployment benefits, getting like $25,000, I think, is what it was laid out, is that the -- is that the theft of public funds?

HONIG: Yes.

BOLDUAN: That's what I was trying to --

HONIG: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: I'm trying to figure that one out.

HONIG: So, there's a couple -- there are many different things happening in this indictment. Again, this is not all one thing. And, by the way, it does not have to do, again, with his lies about his personal background during his campaign. So, part one of this indictment essentially, counts one through five, relates to defrauding donors, saying donate to me, going to use the money for my campaign, instead he pocketed it.

Then we get into separately unemployment fraud. And we said, this is the charge of defrauding public money, right? That money belongs to the government. And the allegation here is that before he ran for office, in 2020 and 2021, George Santos applied for unemployment benefits, certified he was not working but he was trying to find a job, as anyone would when they apply for unemployment. But in fact, according to this indictment, he was working and he was making a salary. So, in that sense, it is a very run-of-the-mill unemployment fraud case, which gets prosecuted all the time.

BOLDUAN: All the time.

HONIG: Yes.

SIDNER: I guess the question is, is anyone surprised after all the lies that were told, one after the other after the other on a personal note, from his resume to whether his mother was at the World Trade Center during 9/11, that this then ended up in a legal problem for him?

[09:35:10]

HONIG: And that points up a really interesting question that will play out during the course of this case, which is, can prosecutors use his campaign lies about his background at a trial? That actually could go either way because a judge might say, yes, it's relevant. This is what he did, right? A lot of it -- some of this that we get to relates to his --

SIDNER: Speaks to character, right?

HONIG: Speaks to his character. That kind of thing. But on the other hand, the argument will be, well, you're not allowed to introduce what's called propensity evidence.

SIDNER: Right.

HONIG: He's a bad guy, therefore he must have --

BOLDUAN: They might not need it if they've got - if they've got the paper trail.

SIDNER: They've got the paperwork.

HONIG: I mean, honestly, I don't think they do. These -- the charged lies here speak for themselves. I mean there's also charges, if I can - you know, having read the indictment now. And this gets to his false statements that he made to the House, right? So, if you're a candidate, if you're elected, you have to make certain official disclosures to the House, including information about your income and what the sources were. And this indictment charges that he lied in those disclosures. He said he made way less money than he actually made in some instances, and in other instances he claimed that he made money from one source when they're saying he did not make that money from that source. BOLDUAN: Oh, wow.

HONIG: Yes, this $750,000 which he claimed in salary from the Devolder - Devolder is his full last name.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: That's actually how he's charged in this indictment, as George Devolder. But the allegation is that Santos, as we'll call him, disclosed falsely that he earned $750,000 in salary from his own organization, but, in fact, that was untrue.

BERMAN: Of course, which raises another question, which we'll get to, the political side of this.

Kevin McCarthy, your move. What are you going to do about this now?

Much more to come.

George Santos, the Republican congressman, in federal custody. A 13- count indictment unsealed against him.

This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[09:41:15]

BOLDUAN: Welcome back.

We continue to follow the breaking news. Republican Congressman George Santos in federal custody right now. An indictment against him has just been unsealed. It includes 13 counts of violations and crimes, including wire fraud, money laundering, theft of public funds, meaning he tried to apply for unemployment benefits inappropriately prosecutors say, and also making false statements not House of Representatives. Our teams are going through the indictment. There is some incredible detail in the indictment. Even in the press release coming from the Justice Department, it's multiple pages long.

Let's get back over to Katelyn Polantz. She's been digging through this.

Talk to me, Katelyn, about the detail here. The detail specifically when it comes to the campaign finance violations that you're picking up.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Kate, the nitty-gritty here is bold and the Justice Department is clearly saying they have been able to trace contributions that were going to George Santos from political donors, and they weren't going to his candidacy at all. And when you look further into this indictment, they give a lot of examples of that. There's actually two different transactions in October of 2022 that they outline coming from individual donors writing checks for - or wire transfers for $25,000 each. That's way over what a political individual contributor is allowed to give. You're allowed to give $2,900. So, that's like a whole zero less than what he was actually bringing in.

And what Santos was telling people to get these contributions is -- he was saying, I'm - we're trying to raise money for my campaign to meet a $1.5 million goal. I want to get advertising up on television. I want to be buying ads that would be supporting my candidacy as a Republican in this race. And he was also telling people there were no limits for what they can contribute.

So, he gets in this money, $25,000 from two different donors into a company, and then it doesn't go to the race at all according to the Justice Department. In the indictment it says it goes to cash withdrawals. The personal purchases of luxury designer clothing, credit card payments, a car payment, payments on personal debts and one or more bank transfers. So, there was a lot of things here the Justice Department was able to track down, transactions and exactly where that money ultimately went, which they say was not to benefit George Santos' political candidacy in 2022.

SIDNER: Katelyn Polantz, thank you for that.

We are now going to go to Paula Reid.

This was pretty fast. This is a 20-page indictment that we're seeing against George Anthony Devolder Santos, which is how it's printed on the indictment. Pretty fast, right, for the Justice Department to go forward with this.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, yesterday when our colleagues broke exclusively the news that the congressman had been charged, I thought, wow, this is a public integrity unit that is working with other parts of the Justice Department on this. They tend to focus on potential crimes committed by public officials and they have had some difficulties successfully prosecuting some officials, even like former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell. He was successfully prosecuted, but then that was overturned. I mean they don't bring cases at this point unless they think they can win.

And when we heard that he had been charged, I thought, wow, they must be very confident in their case. And it was apparent that this was likely going to be somehow connected to lying because this is someone who publicly has had a lot of problems with the truth. Now, it's not a crime to lie to the public, but it is a crime to lie in the context of campaign contributions, to lie to banks, to lie to donors and to lie to the House of Representatives. And if you read this indictment, all of the charges are various forms of lying. And they are, for the most part, going to be supported by documents and paperwork.

[09:45:02]

This is not going to be a case that's going to rely on eyewitness testimony. So, this is likely going to be a very strong case for the Justice Department.

Now, of course, he is innocent until proven guilty, but it is unlikely that the Justice Department would move against a sitting Republican member of Congress unless they had the receipts to successfully bring this case.

BERMAN: All right, Paula Reid, stand by.

We did just get a press release from the Department of Justice saying that approximately 1:00 p.m. today Congressman George Santos will be arraigned before United States Magistrate Judge Arlene R. Lindsey on this 13-count indictment that was returned by the federal grand jury in the eastern district of New York.

Our senior legal analyst Elie Honig is here to, I think, translate what that means for all of us.

HONIG: Yes.

BERMAN: And also just dig in a little deeper to the charges that Katelyn Polantz laid out here of this just money laundering scheme.

HONIG: Yes, so I think it's helpful to think of this as a four-part indictment. Thirteen counts, but let's just sort of break it down for - realistically here, four parts.

BERMAN: Yes.

HONIG: First of all, wire fraud. The allegation here is that George Santos raised money for his campaign under false pretenses. He said, donate to my campaign. I need the money to run for and win a seat in Congress. I need the money to buy TV ads. Instead, he pocketed that money. He used it to pay off his personal debts, to buy clothes, to pay off his car, et cetera. Sort of a straight up fraud. So, that's number one.

Second, related to that is money laundering because when he received these payments, as high as $25,000, they would then be wired from one account to another. And the idea of money laundering is, you're trying to move around money that you stole in order to hide it. And that's number two.

Number three, theft of public funds. This is totally different and sort of shocking. And this relates actually to money that the federal government made available during COVID to help people who were unemployed during COVID. And Santos falsely said, I'm not working, I'm trying to get a job, but it's not - it's not working out, when he was, in fact, working. And so that is a straight up theft of public funds. That's the third part.

And finally, again, unrelated or only tangentially related is false statements, because when you get elected to the House, you have to file official paperwork with the House. And one of the things you have to do is give broad strokes about your income. And, interestingly enough, going to just what an inveterate liar this person allegedly is, he both understated his income at some points and overstated it at other points by a lot. So those are the four buckets here.

SIDNER: Wow.

BOLDUAN: So, he's going to now be before a judge at about 1:00 today. George Santos, Republican congressman, indicted. The indictment unsealed. And he is now in federal custody. We're going to have much more coming up on this.

Elie, thank you so much for jumping up with us. I really appreciate it. And all of our reporters who have been just breaking news all over the place on this.

We have much more on that to come.

We also are going to be headed to Capitol Hill for a different reason as well. House Republicans, they are saying now that they have evidence showing some members of the Biden family received millions of dollars in payments from foreign entities in China and Romania. Those new details just coming in as well. We'll get right to it. We'll be right back.

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[09:52:25]

BOLDUAN: All right, this just into CNN. House Republicans say that they have evidence that members of the Biden family received millions of dollars in payments from foreign entities in China and Romania. The Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer, releasing some of these details just moments ago.

CNN's Sara Murray is gathering all of this for us. She's joining us right now.

So, Sara, lay this out for us. What exactly is Comer alleging was done here and how closely involved is Joe Biden?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, Republicans on House Oversight are out with this new memo today, and as you mentioned, Comer just did a press conference, essentially saying that there are members of the Biden family who received payments from entities linked to Romania, linked to China and that some of these payments took place while Joe Biden was the vice president.

And, of course, James Comer is using this to try to further his argument that he's trying to make that there are members of the Biden family who enriched themselves on the family name and that somehow the current president was involved, even though he has not offered proof of that.

But take a listen at what Comer said in his press conference just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): To be clear, this committee is investigating President Biden and his family's shady business deals that capitalize on Joe Biden's public office and risked our country's national security.

The president, when confronted with this information, said it wasn't true. Instead of being honest with the American people, President Biden has claimed since the 2020 election that his family has not received money from China. That was a lie in 2020 and he continues to lie to the American people now. The Bidens have received millions of dollars from China. It is inconceivable that the president did not know it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, look, Kate, this certainly raises questions about Hunter Biden's business activities while his dad was vice president, but they don't make allegations in this report that any of these payments are illegal. They also don't show any payments that are directly linked to Joe Biden, despite the allegations we have seen from Comer.

And the White House, even before this Comer press conference, was slamming it, saying that he has a history of playing it fast and loose with the facts and spreading baseless innuendo, Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, the context that you have right there, though, is important. The detail coming out, that will continue. What this means for Hunter Biden, maybe something very different than what it means for Joe Biden, especially in terms of -

MURRAY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Right now there is no suggestion that anything illegal was actually done.

It's good to see you, Sara.

[09:55:00]

Thank you so much for bringing that reporting to us. Always appreciate it.

Sara.

SIDNER: In just a few hours, former President Donald Trump will speak directly to New Hampshire voters at a CNN presidential town hall. Live pictures now of the stage for you. Trump has emerged as the front- runner in an already crowded GOP field. This is his first appearance on CNN since 2016 and comes just a day after a New York jury found him liable for sexual abuse and defamation.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is live for us now. I'm sure that is going to be something that is asked about and there is so much more. Give us a preview.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Sara. And let me say this, that Trump and his advisers are expecting that to be a question. They obviously know this is a big deal and they are prepared for that.

The real thing that we'll be watching for is just how much voters, particularly here in New Hampshire, care about that verdict. And I spoke to a number of Trump advisers who said they spent the day huddled with the president yesterday, trying to really get him to stay on message. That is their goal, to have him talk about the economy and immigration, foreign policy.

But, of course, it really just matters which Trump shows up here tonight and how he responds to the questions. And I don't mean just the verbal response, but also the physical response. We know that Trump is one to have actual, physical reactions when it comes to this kind of confrontation. And really this is taking him outside of his comfort zone. For the last several years, he has only sat down in these interviews with friendly, conservative media. And I'm told that this is all part of a larger strategy to try and get voters that are in the middle. These voters who might have one time supported Trump but have moved away from him. And that's why they are doing this town hall. That's why they are trying to talk to people directly, these voters directly, and also why they are running ads on CNN. They are trying to reach a group of people that is outside of Trump's base. It will be interesting to see, again, if Trump can actually stay on a message tonight. That's what we'll be watching for.

SIDNER: All right, Kristen Holmes, thank you, live there for us at the town hall. You can watch the presidential town hall with president -- former President Donald Trump right here on CNN tonight at 8:00 p.m. Kaitlan Collins will host him.

John.

BERMAN: All right, Sara, the breaking news this hour, New York Republican Congressman George Santos to appear in court in just a couple hours, charged with money laundering, theft of public funds and more. The indictment is here. We continue to pore over it. We have new details straight ahead.

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