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GOP Rep. Santos Pleads Not Guilty; Bond Set At $500K; Santos Speaks After Pleading Not Guilty To 13 Federal Charges. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired May 10, 2023 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Fraud, money laundering, theft of public funds and making false statements are some of the charges against Congressman George Santos. And after spending the day in federal custody, he just pleaded not guilty to 13 counts. So what will Speaker McCarthy do?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And a major test at the southern border, patrols encountered more than 10,000 migrants on Tuesday alone. As pandemic restrictions come to an end, our reporters are speaking live with those families desperate to get across.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, President Biden hitting the road to sell his debt ceiling message saying America is not a deadbeat nation. New details on ongoing negotiations with Republicans as we close in on a crucial default deadline.
We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.
SCIUTTO: New York Republican congressman, George Santos, has pleaded not guilty to the 13 federal charges he faces in court. Prosecutors say his bond is set at $500,000, though his travel will be limited. The embattled Republican is charged with seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, one count of theft of public funds, two counts of making materially false statements to the House.
CNN's Mark Morales, he was inside the courtroom as those charges were read and as Santos delivered his plea. Tell us what it was like in there and what the congressman's reactions were to these charges.
Mark Morales, CNN: Well, Jim, in a lot of ways, this was very procedural. It went the way that a lot of federal arraignment go, for some reason (inaudible) --
SCIUTTO: Stand by, Mark. This is George Santos - stand by Mark for one moment. We have live pictures now of, well, out of frame there for a moment, but there you go from a wider angle. This is George Santos walking out of the courtroom in Central Islip, New York in Long Island, where, as our reporter, Mark Morales, who was in the courtroom was just telling us Santos just pleaded not guilty to 13 federal counts, among them three counts of money laundering, seven counts of wire fraud, one of theft of public funds. Let's listen in to see if he's answering any questions there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch yourselves going backwards.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible), George.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take it to the podium. Take it to the podium.
SCIUTTO: You hear reporters shouting questions. It does appear that the congressman is going to a podium for the opportunity to answer questions. We just want to give it a beat here to see when that begins. I don't want to speak over him if he does.
Again, as we noted, he's just leaving the courthouse in Central Islip, New York, where he pleaded not guilty to 13 federal charges against him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) right here, but where's the podium?
SCIUTTO: Mark, we're waiting to see if he does come to camera. There is, well, quite a lot of interest in this story, so quite a number of reporters and cameras there to capture those comments if he does speak. Mark, I interrupted you before, apologies, as you described events inside the courtroom. Briefly describe what you saw.
MARK MORALES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT REPORTER: Right. And there was no real demeanor from George Santos while he sat in the courtroom. He answered "yes, ma'am" or "yes, Your Honor" to very procedural questions, whether he understood some of his rights or whether he waived the reading of the indictment.
The interesting part was the agreement on his bond release, which very much included his travel from New York City to Long Island and to Washington, D.C.
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But if he wanted to travel anywhere else in the continental United States, he would need to get permission from pre-trial services.
SCIUTTO: Mark.
MORALES: This (inaudible) --
SCIUTTO: Mark, question.
MORALES: -- very important to - yes.
SCIUTTO: His bond, $500,000, who paid that bond? Who put up the money?
MORALES: That's unclear at the moment. We don't yet know that. I know that there's one more person that needs to put in that bond, and that will happen at the end of the week. That's part of the agreement. We don't know who that - who is going to post that at the beginning.
But this is definitely somebody that prosecutors have already spoken to, everybody has been vetted. The number one thing they wanted each one of these people to understand is that they are now responsible for George Santos. If they're putting up the money, they now have a responsibility here.
SCIUTTO: That's Mark Morales, CNN reporter who's inside the courtroom as George Santos faced these 13 federal counts, gave his plea, entered his plea of not guilty. He was outside the courthouse there. You can see him surrounded by a scrum of reporters and cameras.
We're seeing if he's going to make a comment now. You can see him, I believe he is the gentleman there with the sunglasses under the lies sign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) way, hey, come over here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let him come, people. Let him come.
SCIUTTO: Perhaps not. He does appear to be walking away. Now, again, we wanted to give the opportunity to hear from Republican Congressman George Santos if he was willing to answer questions following entering a not guilty plea here. You can see him continue to walk away from the courthouse there. Gentleman with sunglasses, blue blazer.
Mark, did he say anything in the courtroom beyond entering his plea?
MORALES: Sorry, can you say it one more time, Jim, I didn't get that.
SCIUTTO: Mark Morales, did Santos say anything else in the courtroom other than entering his not guilty plea?
MORALES: He didn't say much else (inaudible) --
SCIUTTO: Here he comes. Hold that thought, Mark, he's going in microphones here, so let's listen in.
REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): You're in front of me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
SANTOS: All right. We made it here. Look at this. All right. So I know you all have questions --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come a little closer. Come a little closer.
SANTOS: I know you all have questions. I know that everybody's been waiting for the moment for me to come out and talk to you guys. Look, this is the beginning of the ability for me to address and defend myself.
We have an indictment. We have all - we have the information that the government wants to come after me on and I'm going to comply. I've been complying throughout this entire process. I have no desire not to comply at this point. They've been gracious in there. Now I'm going to have to go and fight to defend myself.
The reality is it's a witch hunt, because it makes no sense that in four months - five months, I'm indicted. You have Joe Biden's entire family receiving deposits from - nine family members receiving money from foreign destinations into their bank accounts. It's been years of exposing, a lot of you here have reported on them and yet no investigation is launched into them.
I'm going to fight --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: -- I - well, and I'm just going to - I'm getting back to that - I'm going to fight my battle, I'm going to deliver, I'm going to fight the witch hunt, I'm going to take care of clearing my name and I look forward to doing that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: Now, hold on, hold on --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: -- hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- (inaudible) you took the money to buy new clothes.
SANTOS: Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let him talk.
SANTOS: Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to that?
SANTOS: I would like the opportunity for some of you guys to ask some questions in an orderly fashion and we'll start right here. Go ahead, Rachel (ph).
RACHEL: Congressman, why would you apply for unemployment benefits when you had a job making $120,000 a year?
SANTOS: Rachel, this is part of my defense. This is inaccurate information and I will get to clear my name on this during the pandemic. It wasn't very clear. I don't understand where the government's getting their information, but I will present my facts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecutors (inaudible) --
SANTOS: Congressman Santos --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- excuse me, (inaudible) say that you got over $20,000 in unemployment benefits, sir. How is that acceptable? SANTOS: Ma'am, like I said, my employment was changed during the time.
I don't understand where the government's coming from. I will present my defense to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And one last one (inaudible) --
SANTOS: Well, I gave you two. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congressman --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congressman Santos, what evidence do you have that they don't have?
SANTOS: I --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) extensive?
SANTOS: I have plenty of evidence that we will now be sharing with the government in this case to make sure that I can defend my innocence (inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, (inaudible) continue running for re- election?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you planning on running for re-election?
SANTOS: Yes, I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think (inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why should anybody believe you now?
SANTOS: Well, like I said, I will prove myself innocent and then we'll move from there and re-election is a very far time away from now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The $750,000 --
SANTOS: Go ahead, okay. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for blocking, the $750,000, they said that you reported that wrongly. Do you have any comment to that?
SANTOS: Well, like I said, I will be giving them all - we'll be delivering all the finances of my company, delivering all my finances to them to dispel their accusation against me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And again, you will not resign.
SANTOS: I will not resign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congressman, did you get campaign donations and use that money to buy expensive suits?
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SANTOS: No, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think you'll win re-election?
SANTOS: That's not up for me to know. Elections are very tricky and it's up to the people. I trust them to decide what's best for them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, admitted to lying in the past, what do you think will make people believe you this time around?
SANTOS: Well, look, like I said, I've asked many times, I want to be judged by the work I do in the body and I stay committed to that.
Any more questions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Santos, are you headed to Washington now?
SANTOS: Yes, I am. I have to go back and vote. Tomorrow, we have one of those consequential votes in this Congress, which is a border bill and I'm very looking forward to being there to vote on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) speaker right now?
SANTOS: Well, I'm not going to address just the Speaker or address leadership. I appreciate everybody's patience with my presence in Congress as the media has its ways of doing things. And I respect you guys, I've maintained good rapport with a lot of you guys. I've spoken with a lot of you guys, and I have the intention to continuing that open door.
Some of you who are from the Hill know how to find me. Some of you here from the district don't have a hard time finding me. It's about keeping in line of communication. So I appreciate leadership for being patient at this time and for allowing the process to play out.
I think this is about innocent until proven guilty. This starts, I have my right to fight to prove my innocence as the government has the right to fight to try to find me guilty in whatever charges they have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why haven't you show them documents to prove your innocence until now, because it's - you're being accused for a long time.
SANTOS: Well, because the media is not jury or the judge, so I will present that to the jurists and to the judge in this courthouse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And to the Congress.
SANTOS: Well, if Congress requests it, I will present it to them as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So are you vowing in this trial you won't negotiate a plea?
SANTOS: I'm feeling look, it's --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at the camera, thank you.
SANTOS: I'm addressing one of your colleagues here. I don't want to give the back of --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) the camera.
SANTOS: So as usual, Jody (ph), I'll do my best to be a positive person. Life is already as bad as it gets out there --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His lips are moving.
SANTOS: -- So I'm fine. I'm good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You believe you're innocent?
SANTOS: I believe I'm innocent, yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) so many of (inaudible) and accusations.
SANTOS: Well, look, the way I look at it I'll be a chairman of a committee in a couple of years. If you just look at the standards of Congress, look at the Senate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George. George.
SANTOS: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) for COVID money and yet you're being alleged that --
SANTOS: Well, it's alleged, right? So it's - so are you accusing me or are you going to allow the process to play itself and allow me to clear my name? That's my question to you then.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, congressman, (inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you first learned about the charges against you and also can you talk about the process of (inaudible) they arrest you (inaudible) --
SANTOS: It was - no, it was very amicable, very peaceful. These guys did a phenomenal job. We clearly came right under your noses and you didn't see us come in today and now we're leaving, obviously. We're addressing you, guys and had all the intention in the world to be out here with you guys.
I'm going to keep fighting. I'm going to keep fighting for what I believe in. I'm going to keep fighting to represent my district. I'm going to keep fighting to deliver results. And now I have to keep fighting to deliver - to defend my innocence and I'm going to do that and --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Congressman, I saw --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gov. Hochul today said you should resign and put your district out of its misery. Will you do that?
SANTOS: Gov. Hochul is entitled to her opinion. I don't represent her. She is not my constituents, so --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw your face in court today - Congressman, I saw your face in court today. I saw your face. You looked (inaudible) --
SANTOS: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look pretty stressed when I saw you sit down and the judge first started speaking, what was going through your mind? What are you feeling after being in court today?
SANTOS: Well, when it's your first time in experiencing something of this nature, I think everybody would show some kind of stress, right? I quite frankly don't believe I was stressed. I did the best I could to just keep my composure, I was fine.
But, again, this has been an experience for a book or something like that, so anyway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: I appreciate you guys. I appreciate you guys. Here's what we'll do, I will --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: Guys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) --
SANTOS: Guys? Guys? I will - you see, that is information you'll never get because that is the media's - your intention is to go harass them and make their life miserable. You're not getting that. All right, have a good day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, where (inaudible) --
SCIUTTO: It described George Santos' defiant, they're coming out of the courthouse, having pled guilty to 13 federal charges and he said in his words, I will keep fighting. He said he will not resign. He confirmed he's running for re-election, which he had announced before being charged federally here. And notably using terminology we've heard from the former president frequently, he described the charges in the investigation as a witch hunt.
SANCHEZ: Yes, taking a page out of former President Trump saying that this is a witch hunt, that this is political saying he doesn't understand where the government got this evidence for 13 federal charges, federal counts of fraud, including seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, one count of theft of public funds.
[15:15:00]
He was asked a question about his employment status during COVID. He's alleged to have --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- taken money from the federal government that was meant to help folks that lost their jobs because of the pandemic. And he essentially said that he doesn't know where the government is getting their information, but that he intends to fight this and that he will prove his case in court by providing evidence.
KEILAR: And some of this, Evan, walk us through this, some of this information that the government has, we were aware of because it's been aired in the press. Some of it has not been.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Some of it has not been and the answer to Boris' question and what the Congressman is asking, the place that the government got all of this information is from him, from the paperwork he filed himself.
SCIUTTO: It's a great point.
PEREZ: Okay, all of this --
SCIUTTO: It's not a mystery. It's not a mystery.
PEREZ: -- it is not a mystery. These documents right here, detail, which - what he filed in Congress, what he filed to the Department of Labor in the city of New York saying that he was unemployed, when, in fact, he was getting money, a salary from an investment job.
So this is paperwork. This is a paperwork case and that's the problem for the congressman, right?
SCIUTTO: Which by the way is paperwork disclosures that all members of Congress have.
PEREZ: All members.
SCIUTTO: He was not singled out --
PEREZ: Right.
SCIUTTO: -- to fill out these requirements.
PEREZ: No one told him to falsify this paperwork. And so that's the biggest problem for him is that this is not like a lot of indictments are based on sometimes secret sources that the FBI has, informants. They may well have witnesses and they probably do, which we don't know yet in this document. But certainly what they have shown here is based basically on all of the paperwork that this Congressman himself filed and which the government says is false. SANCHEZ: We should note, two of those 13 federal charges are for
providing false information to those disclosures for the House of Representatives.
Let's go over to Paula Reid right now who's been following this closely. She is outside the courthouse. Paula, is it surprising to you that Congressman Santos decided to speak so openly to reporters?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, as I said earlier, nothing would really surprise me with Congressman Santos, but yes he came right out here and address reporters and appears that he wanted to try to at least in part adopt the Trump playbook.
He came out, one of the first things he said is that this case, these 13 charges that he just pleaded not guilty to are "witch hunt." He also tried to divert attention to the Biden family and also suggests the speed with which this prosecution has been going is indicative of something nefarious, but having covered the Justice Department for a decade, the speed with which they have pursued this case actually suggests that the public integrity unit must have a lot of confidence in their case.
As Elie (ph) just pointed out, the crimes that are alleged in this indictment, these are paperwork crimes. Now, I will tell you that one thing that former President Trump would not do is go into a scrum of reporters where he is surrounded by people asking him detailed questions. He was pressed on the specific allegations in this indictment, for example, whether he applied for unemployment benefits while he was indeed employed. He didn't really have a good answer for any of that. He just deflected, said this will be part of his defense.
I was pretty surprised at the length of this gaggle. I even sent our Mark Morales over to his attorney to ask if this attorney thought this was a good idea. The attorney told Mark that if the Congressman wants to proceed this way, that he'll support it, but it's unclear how these comments, how a mini press conference outside Federal Court could potentially impact this case.
KEILAR: Yes. Look, anything he says is fair game here, right? As he's saying this before the cameras. And one of the things that he was asked about was, you've lied so many times and it's verifiable, why do you expect people to believe you. He also dodged on that. He said, I expect to be judged by my work done in the body.
I do want to bring in criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Bernarda Villalona to talk with us as well.
Let's talk about the biggest charges here, the potentially most perilous ones for George Santos, which are wire fraud, these seven counts of wire fraud and the potential sentence that they could bring if he is found guilty, Bernarda.
BERNARDA VILLALONA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE & FORMER PROSECUTOR: Exactly. So when we're talking about wire fraud, the maximum sentence that he's facing is 20 years incarceration. That is the max and that's for each count of wire fraud that can run consecutive. Of course, let's be clear when it comes to federal sentences, unless
there's a mandatory minimum, you can get anywhere from probation all up until the 20 years. But this - in George Santos, he's facing a lot of time if he is convicted, so I'm not sure why would you speak to the public right after being arraigned, knowing that anything you say can be used against you. He hasn't learned his lesson.
SCIUTTO: But Bernarda, can I ask you because, of course, in the news, we cover a lot of charges and a lot of different circumstances and not all charges lead to conviction. That's just simply a fact.
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If you were defending George Santos here, based on what you know and, of course, you haven't seen all of the Department of Justice's evidence here, but if you were defending him, what would that defense be?
VILLALONA: Well, the number one thing to do is tell him to shut up. Shut your mouth. No interviews, because anything you say can be used against you. Shut up. Callate. Which language do I have to say that in.
But it seems that we already got a heads up in terms of his defense attorney seems to not be able to control him. So I can actually foresee that this attorney may ask to be removed from his case. Aside from that is that he has to get all his ducks in a row when it comes to the feds and federal prosecution, especially in paper cases like this, guess what, the investigation has been thorough.
They have all the documents they need. When it comes to wire fraud and document cases, those are the easiest cases to prove, especially all they have to do when you're talking about collecting the unemployment benefits, dude, were you getting money or not? Were you working? Did you have income? Did you file for unemployment and got those funds? That is easy. It's yes or no. This man needs to shut up.
SANCHEZ: It would seem pretty simple to prove in court if he's cashing these checks, both from the federal government and from an employer, that's pretty black and white.
PEREZ: But looking in the wire fraud cases - account rather - every time you asked for money, you requested money and the money went somewhere other than where you promised the money was going to go, that is a violation and so that is what is charged here.
And so it's not just the false statements to Congress, right, for his disclosures. Every one of these is documented, because we know he was soliciting money for one thing and putting it somewhere else. And that, according to the government, is a crime.
SCIUTTO: How about on the employment or the jobless benefits that he took? I mean, his answer - and I listened very carefully to his courtside defense, let's call it that.
PEREZ: Right. SCIUTTO: He said during the pandemic, it wasn't very clear as if he's
- either the regulations weren't very clear or his employment status wasn't very clear. I assume, given that prosecutors look for fraud with jobless benefits all the time, I assume it's fairly clear what the law is.
PEREZ: Oh, it's crystal clear. I mean, look, when the - when - during the pandemic, this is a program that the Trump administration, the Republican Congress, everybody was on board with because Americans were suffering. People, obviously, New York was very hard hit by the pandemic.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
PEREZ: And during that period, one of the things that I remember doing interviews with people at the Justice Department, they knew that because of the way this program was structured, there were going to be people like George Santos taking advantage of it and they knew, and that's the reason why they made sure they appointed prosecutors to go over this and to find some of that fraud and that's what you're seeing here.
KEILAR: You can cross reference these things pretty easily.
PEREZ: Right, very easily.
KEILAR: I do want to go to Manu Raju.
Manu, we knew that he was seeking re-election and he confirmed that he will continue to seek re-election even as he has members of his own party saying get out of here.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and that's one thing that will get - definitely get a lot of attention, including in the Speaker's office. Just a few weeks ago, I had asked the Speaker himself if you'd support George Santos running for re-election. He did not say he would support George Santos running for re-election.
A number of Republicans either want him to step aside, resign right now or ultimately decide not to run again in order to get a more electable Republican in a district that swings Democratic. And in talking to a number of Republicans today, they reiterated that message telling me again and again that it's time for him to resign or if not, they could vote to expel him. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): He should have resigned a long time ago. He's an embarrassment to our party. He's an embarrassment to the United States Congress.
RAJU: Would it be better if he resigned?
REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): Oh, absolutely. It's a distraction and it's a punch line for a lot of commentary regarding the Republican Party that we don't need. And I just - I feel like he should have done the right thing.
REP. NICK LALOTA (R-NY): I think he needs to go right away. I hope that he resigns.
REP. BUDDY CARTER (R-GA): He's responsible to his constituents and his district and not to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: So that last comment coming from a congressman from Georgia, Buddy Carter, who said that he's not going to get into calling on him to resign. There are some Republicans who are not calling on George Santos to resign, including, very importantly, the Speaker himself, Kevin McCarthy, who has said that he would allow the legal process to play out, allow for any sort of guilty conviction to occur.
If that were to occur, perhaps that could change the calculation, but it will take some time to come to that. So what will change Kevin McCarthy's calculation going forward? He has indicated that if the House Ethics Committee comes forward with any sort of findings, suggesting that he may have broken the law or even suggested that he should be expelled from the Congress, perhaps that could change McCarthy's approach.
But for today and for now, he is indicating that he's not going to go as far as those other members who told me today that it's time for him to resign, saying that he will allow the legal process to play out.
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And if he wants to fight it, he can fight it, saying that there have been other members of Congress who have been indicted, later were cleared and still are serving in this body. So we'll see how the other members react and we'll see how McCarthy reacts to that comment just now from George Santos that he will, in fact, try to seek a second term. That is something that could cause some heartburn here, because, again, that district very complicated in McCarthy's quest to hold on to a very, very narrow majority. Brianna?
KEILAR: Manu, fortunes have changed so much here. George Santos was part of this group of New York Republicans who came in, in the midterms, when Republicans did not so well other places. And this is really the group of Republicans that Kevin McCarthy owes his very slim majority to and that's part of the calculus, right? He just doesn't have much wiggle room when it comes to his conference.
RAJU: Yes, and it's the New York Republicans. You're exactly right. In fact, George Santos has raised, one, that actually Democrats did not really spend a ton of money and a lot of effort to try to knock him off, because they had seen the polls, George Santos is actually doing fairly well in that race.
They focused on other races in New York where the Democrats fell short. Ultimately, those seats were central to McCarthy getting back into majority, which is why a number of the New York Republicans themselves have called on Santos to resign, including Mike Lawler of New York, one member, Nick LaLota, another one also calling on him to resign.
Several other freshmen members in the same class of George Santos, same Republicans as well, saying they don't want the liabilities of having George Santos on the ticket, which is why if he does decide to run and he could still run, despite facing indictment, there will be a furious effort to try to defeat him in the primary. We'll see how that ultimately shakes out if George Santos decides to do it again. Brianna.
SCIUTTO: Manu, just recall for us, did McCarthy not say a few weeks ago at the start of all this that charges would be the red line for him? He set some sort of standard if Santos were to reach it, that he would lose his backing. What was it?
RAJU: Yes, he said broke - if he breaks the law. So the question will be is it - is the allegation and the charges in this indictment enough to rise to that level of breaking the law?
SCIUTTO: Right.
RARJU: McCarthy says no, because he has a right to clear his name. And of course, he's not guilty until he's proven so in the court of law. And that is the standard in which McCarthy is currently abiding by. But he also said that the Ethics Committee finds that he breaks the law, that could be enough for him.
So that's why the House Ethics Committee investigation, a separate probe could be determinative to determine whether or not the Republicans will start to break ranks in mass and actually vote to expel him from Congress. That is a next potential big shoe to drop, because that ethics probe is still ongoing, unclear when it will be wrapped up and unclear of the ultimate findings here, but there will be a lot of focus on that on the Hill and that'll put a lot of pressure on the Speaker if they do, in fact, find that he allegedly broke the law.
SANCHEZ: Manu. Please stand by. Important to point out in the context of George Santos running for re-election that some of these charges stem from him allegedly using campaign funds for his campaign, allegedly, right? For personal expenses, like a car payment and fancy stuff.
I want to go to Bernarda, because I'm wondering, he joins quite a collection of lawmakers who have been indicted while in office, at least two dozen since 1980. Can you talk to us about the challenges of investigating a sitting member of Congress?
VILLALONA: Exactly. So there are a lot of challenges. And, of course, the number one challenge is the political challenge, the media challenge, because it's going to be argued in the media that this is all political to try to get him out of office. But the facts and the evidence will speak for themselves at the time that there is a trial and by the release of the statement by the U.S. attorney in regards to this case.
Also, another challenge is that you have the challenge of witnesses coming forward, because they are scared of retaliation. So that's one big issue when you're dealing with people that are in office and prosecuting them while they're in office.
But here's the thing in this case, this is a paper case. So your main star witness in this case is going to be the documents, so you don't have that fear.
SCIUTTO: Bernarda, thanks so much. Evan Perez, of course, Manu up on the Hill, Mark out at the courthouse, we're going to continue to cover this story. Quite some events this afternoon.
KEILAR: Very dramatic. So up next, inside the meeting between the President and top congressional leaders, both sides reportedly making little to no progress on the debt ceiling as the nation hurdles toward potential economic disaster.
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