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Record 10K Plus In Border Custody Over Last Two Days; Suspect In Chokehold Death Arraigned, Faces Manslaughter Charge; Large Explosion In Russian-Occupied Luhansk. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 12, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Pushed to the limit. Title 42 is now over and the migrant crisis at the border is poised to grow. Munity is on the brink as thousands cross into the U.S. daily. We are live once again at the border.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, released on bond. The U.S. Marine who held a homeless man in a deadly chokehold on a New York City subway is now out of jail after his first court appearance. Daniel Penny is facing a second-degree manslaughter charge. We have the very latest on this case.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And the Oklahoma governor is waging a war on a PBS station, yes, the home of Sesame Street and Clifford the Big Red Dog. Why the governor says it just doesn't line up with Oklahoma values? We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: We begin with the crisis many fear has no clear end in sight. The rush of migrants to the southern border now that Title 42, which dates to the COVID pandemic is over. The policy allowed the U.S. to immediately remove undocumented arrivals. It expired 14 hours ago. And over the last two days, federal authorities reported more than 10,000 people in border custody, a record-breaking tally.

In the meantime, border communities they're suffering. Several more declaring emergencies today to get the resources they need to respond to the surge. What's more? A judge has just ruled against the Biden administration, blocking the release of migrants without a court date. This is a major setback according to the Secretary of Homeland Security.

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ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It's a very harmful ruling and the Department of Justice is considering our options, you know the practice that the court has prevented us from using as a practice that prior administrations have used to relieve overcrowding.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: CNN's Rosa Flores. She's been covering the Title 42 story from El Paso, Texas right on the border. Rosa, you are getting the latest figures. What do they tell us about how big the surge has been at least the first 13 -- 14 hours since the end of Title 42?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, let me start big picture because according to a DHS official when you're talking about the entire U.S. southern border, they're not seeing the big influx, the big increase that was expected. Now, here in El Paso where I am, El Paso city officials just wrapped up a press conference. And they say that they are prepared for the worst. But right now, they have 150 migrants in shelters. That's a very small number, they're prepared to shelter more than a thousand people.

But let me show you what I'm talking about. Because I'm just in front of the border wall. Would -- that's what you see behind me -- behind that border wall, that's the staging area where migrants wait to be transported for processing.

I want you to take a look at this video that we shot yesterday of that area. You can see a very large group. According to U.S. Border Patrol chief Raul Ortiz, in the past few days, there was about 2500 migrants within 48 hours that transported and processed about 1500. And yesterday afternoon, there was about a thousand migrants there.

Now, I want you to look at these live pictures from our drone. And you'll see that all of those individuals are gone. They have been transported out of this area and into processing.

Now, one important point I want to make is that there is something called decompression that the federal government uses during surges, and that -- what that means is they transport migrants from areas that are overcapacity like El Paso to areas along the border that have space for processing. Now, just to give you a reality check on a little context here, I want you to take a look at these numbers because every time that we're out on the border covering, whether it's a small influx or a bigger influx, we keep a record of the migrant encounters. So, I went back to my notes, and here's what they look like from back in May of last year to this year. And you can see the influx there from about 7000 to about 8500 a few months ago to now which is about 10,000.

And, Jim, that's important context because to the point of the -- that would -- that the U.S. Border Patrol chief was making just a few days ago, he made -- he made the point that there has been a spike, there has been an increase but it has been happening for about a week. And so they expected an overnight increase right as Title 42 ended. We have not seen it yet but of course, everybody's still preparing and waiting, Jim.

[14:05:15]

SCIUTTO: So, that is notable. You're saying that as far as today, the massive influx, there hasn't been a big spike today. So, the numbers you're showing there took place in prior days, just so we're clear. FLORES: So, those -- the numbers that we have that I went through my notes, those are from multiple months in which we've been on the border here at CNN covering an influx of migrants. And so, you see those numbers from 7000 to 8500. So, those are considered significant surges at those points in time.

The numbers that we're seeing now and for the past few days, it's about 10,000. Right now, it's under 10,000. And the point that the U.S. Border Patrol chief was making just a few days ago when he had a roundtable with a few reporters, myself included, was that's what he was expecting for that surge, but that that surge was already happening that it had been happening for about a week. And what he mentioned during that briefing with reporters, he was saying that he was not expecting a huge influx of 17 -- 18,000 migrants as soon as Title 42 ended.

Now again, like you -- like you mentioned, Jim, it's early, and we still need to wait and see what happens. But that's what -- this is what we're seeing now. And I think those pictures that before and after from yesterday and today, at least tell the story here in El Paso, Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right. We'll continue to follow those developers of course at the border. With me now CNN White House reporter Priscilla Alvarez. So, let's talk about the legal challenges that we talked about last hour, I have one from Florida. And this one has been successful. So, now the Biden administration has to hold those folks they can't release them without a court date.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: They can't release them without a court date. In addition to that, they had to check in with Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

SCIUTTO: OK.

ALVAREZ: This is what they call parole on a case-by-case basis. So, they can't take that measure. When you're looking at the numbers, big- picture, these are record historic daily encounters that they're facing. What that means is they're going to have to go through processing for hours.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ALVAREZ: And when that happens, we don't have facilities built for that, so that's why the administration was trying to take measures to try to alleviate only, of course, according to the secretary, a fraction of those. But either way, this Florida lawsuit immediately had an effect on the ground. And that is what officials called a struggle-- a challenge as they try to get through all these people in custody.

SCIUTTO: Obviously. So, because they have to hold them, the worry is right as you have all those folks come in. They can't be released from there until they have a court date and then you start to fill those detention centers. Yes.

ALVAREZ: And these are facilities, Jim that they're -- they -- they're built for when we were dealing with Mexican nationals. It was quick.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ALVAREZ: They were coming in. They were processing them. They were being removed. Now, you have nationalities from all around the world --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ALVAREZ: -- families, children. It's not that easy. That's the challenge for the administration.

SCIUTTO: Priscilla, thanks so much. Listen, it's developing by the minute. We'll stay on top of it. Thanks so much, Priscilla. Boris, to you.

SANCHEZ: Another major headline we're following today. U.S. Marine veteran Daniel Penny, the man that you see in this video earlier today walked out of a police precinct in New York in handcuffs. He was arraigned on a second-degree manslaughter charge after this incident. You see Penny there on a New York City subway earlier this month. He's accused of choking a homeless man to death.

The man who died is named Jordan Neely. Witnesses say that Neely got on the subway and he was shouting. He had not physically attacked anyone but certain riders on the subway apparently felt uncomfortable.

Neely's family says that he was suffering from mental illness. Now, here is an attorney for the family at a news conference earlier today. Listen.

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DONTE MILLS, ATTORNEY FOR NEELY FAMILY: We don't want it where you can kill someone because you thought there was a possibility they could do something to you. There was no attack. Mr. Neely did not attack anyone. He did not touch anyone. He did not hit anyone. But he was choked to death. And that can't stand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Kara Scannell is outside a court where Penny was released on a $100,000 bond. And, Kara, you're learning more about how the Manhattan DA's office laid out the details of this case. What are you hearing?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, that's right. So, in court during the arraignment, the prosecutors explain to the judge where they are in their investigation. And, you know, this was after Neely -- excuse me, after Penny had appeared before the judge and the judge agreed with the bail package proposed by the prosecutors that is releasing him on $100,000 bond and surrendering his passport.

So, the prosecution had explained it this way. This was prosecutor Joshua Steinglass. He said that they had interviewed numerous eyewitnesses. They reviewed video footage, they reviewed 911 calls, and they interviewed responding officers to the scene.

[14:10:08]

Remember this took place on May 1, and here we are today with this arraignment and Penny's arrest. Now, they also explain what they have learned from their investigation leading to the second-degree manslaughter charge. So, what Josh Steinglass, the prosecutor said is that Neely had entered the subway station at one stop and that passengers had observed Mr. Neely making threats and scaring passengers. He said it was then that Penny had put Neely in a chokehold, and he kept him in that chokehold until they got to the next subway stop.

Now at that subway stop, they said that Penny had continued to hold him for several minutes. And then he said two other men restrained Neely's legs. Then he said that at some point, Mr. Neely stopped moving, and the defendant continued to hold Mr. Neely for a period of time and released him.

Now, he didn't say how long he held him after Neely had stopped moving. But he did say that then there were paramedics on the scene. They tried to resuscitate Neely. He was pronounced dead at the hospital.

Now, lawyers for Penny have suggested that they will argue that this you know, former Marine was acting in self-defense, you know in a sense to try to protect the passengers on this train. Now, Penny will be back in court on July 17, Boris.

SANCHEZ: We know you'll be watching that case closely for us, Kara Scannell from outside the courthouse. Brianna.

KEILAR: Of course, this raises a lot of questions. We have attorney and Legal Affairs commentator of Areva Martin who is joining us on this. So, you have, Areva, Penny charged with second-degree manslaughter here. Walk us through these charges.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY & LEGAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Yes. Essentially, Brianna, what a second-degree manslaughter charge is in New York is that someone has to have been reckless in -- with regards to their actions, and their reckless actions resulted in the death of another person. These are very serious felony charges. They carry up to a 15- year jail sentence if there is a conviction on these charges.

We heard that Penny's lawyer is going to argue self-defense. But I think there's a real problem with that defense, Brianna, because as we just heard also, Penny did not see Mr. Neely engage in any kind of physical conduct. Yes, he may have been loud. He may have been shouting that he was hungry. He wanted food.

But Jordan Neely never struck anyone. He never used any level of force and you can't use self-defense that is disproportionate to the threat that is -- that you may perceive. It's like taking a gun to a fistfight. So, although Mr. Neely may have been loud, he may have been boisterous, he wasn't using any kind of physical actions to attack anyone. KEILAR: So, anticipatory self-defense, let's call it. That's just not really a thing when it comes to a legal defense.

MARTIN: No. I think about that. That says anytime that someone yells or makes a movement, you can then claim I was so afraid that I needed to use physical force.

And in this case, what's so disturbing, Brianna, is not only did he -- did Mr. Penny put Mr. Neely in this deadly chokehold, but he continued to have him in this maneuver, even after Mr. Neely stop you know, moving after he pretty much was listless in the arms of Mr. Penny. Very disturbing. We don't want individuals on subways taking the law into their own hands. They can't be judge, jury, and executioner.

KEILAR: Yes.

MARTIN: If he was afraid -- if Mr. Penny was truly afraid, he could have left that car and gone to another subway car.

KEILAR: At his arraignment, Penny's lawyer highlighted his military service. He said that it should be considered. I wonder what legal bearing you think that should have? Especially -- I mean, I sort of wonder as a military-connected person, knowing that if anyone is aware of what you can and cannot respond to at least lethal force, it should be someone who was in the military.

MARTIN: Absolutely, Brianna. I think the military piece is going to play in the favor of the prosecutors because they're going to be able to argue that this is someone who had training about how lethal that chokehold could be, and he knew that he could cause bodily harm if not death to someone by using a chokehold. And I think there's testimony out there where one of the individuals on the subway was yelling to Mr. Penny, you know that that's a hell of a chokehold or something to suggest that he was using a level of force that was not reasonable.

And that's what this case really comes down to was that level of force necessary and wasn't reasonable. And based on all of the reports to date, it does not appear that that level of force was necessary or reasonable. Thus, I don't think the self-defense is going to weigh heavily in this case.

KEILAR: Such a sad outcome here. Areva, thank you for walking us through all of that. Jim?

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SCIUTTO: A senior U.S. military official and senior Western official tell me that Ukraine's forces have begun what are known as shaping operations preparing the battlefield for a counteroffensive against Russia. We've got a general here ready to explain exactly what shaping means and how important it is.

And just in to CNN, the jury has reached a verdict in the murder trial we're telling you about a short time ago of Lori Vallow Daybell. The Idaho mother accused of killing her two children, conspiring to kill her husband's first wife. We will bring you that once the verdict is read.

And where did all the quiet quitting go? A recent survey shows that (AUDIO GAP) at an all-time high. We'll tell you why that is. That's just ahead.

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SCIUTTO: Today in Ukraine, witnesses reported large explosions in Russian-occupied Luhansk in eastern Ukraine, a significant hub for Russian invasion forces. We don't know what was behind the apparent attack, but it is beyond the range of weapons that Ukraine has had previously. We do know it's coming as fighting is about to enter a new phase.

[14:20:02]

A senior U.S. military official and Western official as well tell me that Ukrainian forces have begun what would have known as shaping operations and in fact preparing the battlefield for what is expected to be a major counteroffensive. Let's break it all down with retired brigadier general Mark Kimmitt. So, General, first, let's start on what shaping is, and why it's important prior to a new ground operation.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMIT, (RET) U.S. ARMY: Well, first of all, shaping operations, try to make it as difficult for the enemy to be able to react to the counter-offensive. Go after his fuel, go after his ammunition --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: -- go after his logistics routes, and also try to make sure that you understand where he is so that you can make sure you don't waste your time attacking where the enemy isn't.

SCIUTTO: Understood. OK, so let's talk about what this is shaping for. And that is for a planned counteroffensive.

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: The intention being -- this is territory they took back, by the way in their last counteroffensive late last summer, but they want to go and get the rest or a significant portion of this Russian- controlled territory. So, what are their goals and what are the chances of accomplishing those goals?

KIMMITT: Yes. First of all, I think we've got to look at this like a pool game. There's no way they're going to take back this area in this upcoming counteroffensive. They want to sink that ball, but they also want to make sure that the cue ball is ready for the next offensive. Something as shallow as this offensive right here doesn't really have a strategic effect.

SCIUTTO: So in other words, you need to go -- I don't know, more than taking a similar amount of territory that you took last fall.

KIMMITT: I think you need to get down to here. I think you've got to have this whole area. You got to split Crimea from this area.

SCIUTTO: Right.

KIMMITT: You got to be in a position where you can continue operations, either against Crimea in the future or back into the Russian logistics hubs.

SCIUTTO: This being that land bridge --

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- we've talked about so often --

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- connecting those Russian controlled territories which they've controlled for some time going back where like 2014 --

KIMMITT: Right.

SCIUTTO: -- to Crimea. You've had the addition, as we reported yesterday, of this new missile, the Storm Shadow missile -- cruise missile, the Ukrainians -- or rather the UK has provided the Ukrainians. Tell us the importance of that, this is another part of the country up there, in terms of range into Russian-occupied territory.

KIMMITT: Yes. Oddly enough, two facts. They have shortened the range they to breach., The Storm Shadow has about a 300-mile capability.

SCIUTTO: Right.

KIMMITT: In here, they have shortened it but enough to get to the Sea of Azov.

SCIUTTO: What? A 150, which is still three times what they had prior.

KIMMITT: Right.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: It's sort of a proxy for the ATACMS that the United States will not give. What that allows them to do is attack as you said, the shaping operations go against their command centers --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: -- go against the logistics hubs, go against the fuel depots.

SCIUTTO: And this, by the way, is an example.

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: We're talking about strikes here in Luhansk which prior -- previously, we don't know this was the Storm Shadow, by the way, but at least this had been out of their range. KIMMITT: Yes. Right.

SCIUTTO: They appear to have hit some ground there today. Finally, before we go, Ukraine has announced it's making its own new tank again up in Kharkiv, remarkably in the midst of the war. Significant?

KIMMITT: Not in the short term. Obviously, we're going to need to get hundreds of those out there. They won't get out there sadly, for perhaps a year or two. And if wars continuing on at that point, we're in a completely different situation.

SCIUTTO: Right. Yes, that dreaded frozen conflict that you talked about.

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: General Mark Kimmitt, thanks so much. Brianna.

KIMMITT: Thanks, Jim.

KEILAR: Today, the Friday before Mother's Day is Military Spouse Appreciation Day. In an opinion piece for cnn.com. I have teamed up with my co-worker and fellow military spouse, AnneClaire Stapleton who right now is on the frontlines in Ukraine reporting and producing, to talk about what would really make the approximately one million military spouses out there feel appreciated, and that's a job.

Military Spouses have suffered depression level unemployment as high as 32 percent. And it's not for lack of education. They are significantly more educated than average Americans.

And it's not for lack of what they have to contribute their assets. Military family life teaches people how to fix problems without complaining and adapt to circumstances beyond their control. But unless companies prioritize hiring and retaining these workers, frequent moves, gaps in unemployment and non-flexible work options can get in the way.

When two incomes is often what it takes for a family to be financially stable, perhaps we should not be surprised by the stunning statistic that 26 percent of military families are food insecure. The Pentagon and policymakers increasingly see spouse unemployment as a threat to the readiness of the military. How does the service member do their job if they're worried their kids aren't getting enough to eat? Why stay in the military or getting out means both spouses can be employed?

Since 2005, Congress has debated a tax incentive for companies that hire military spouses and it was just introduced again because every year, it has failed to pass. If you want to know more, check out our column. It is up right now on cnn.com. Boris.

[14:25:00]

SANCHEZ: An important read on such a critical issue. Brianna, thank you for bringing attention to it. Still to come today. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and former President Donald Trump holding dueling events in the critical caucus state of Iowa. Their messages and how each of them is being received by voters when we come back.

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SANCHEZ: Battlegrounds Iowa, Donald Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis will hold dueling rallies there tomorrow. The battle already intensifying between the party's two front runners nine months before Iowa holds the GOP's first presidential caucuses and before Ron DeSantis even declares that he is running for president. I want to bring in CNN political director David Chalian.