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Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) Says She Will Vote No on Debt Ceiling Bill; Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) Slams Trump During Inaugural Campaign Stop; New York Times Reports, Trump Aides Subpoenaed in Firing of Election Security Expert. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 31, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The Kremlin is calling it an alarming situation. At least one person killed, six others injured in strikes in Russian territory. What the buildup to Ukraine's counteroffensive says about where this war is headed.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: 2024 Republican Presidential Candidate Ron DeSantis on the trail in Iowa. Ahead, his message to former President Donald Trump.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So it looks like a scene out of Fast and Furious. A car launches off the end of a flatbed tow truck and flips through the air. So, why on Earth did that even happen? This is CNN News Central.

So, this just into CNN, an important development for those counting votes on the deal to avoid a ?U.?S. default. Democratic Representative Primila Jayapal, the chair of the House Progressive Caucus, says she will not support the deal. She is a no. This as House Democrats are meeting behind closed doors right now.

CNN's Manu Raju is with us from Capitol Hill this morning. All right, Manu, so where does that put things as the morning moves on?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We are getting some backlash from the left and also some backlash from the right over this deal that was cut between the president and Speaker McCarthy and really making nobody happy. Democrats in particular were concerned about the White House's handling of these negotiations.

The White House had said for some time it would simply raise the national debt. They wanted the House and the Senate to just raise a national debt limit without any conditions. Ultimately, they were forced into a negotiation with the speaker. They agreed to include a slew of spending cuts and other provisions that Democrats are simply not happy with.

But they know this is the only viable option to avoid a debt default, the first ever default in American history if the House and the Senate don't approve something by Monday. And tonight, the vote is expected to take place to raise the debt ceiling until January of 2025.

Behind closed doors, White House officials right now are briefing members of the Democratic Caucus, explaining to them why they think this is the best possible deal they could get, fending off other Republican demands that the Democrats would have been more angry about if they got into the proposal here.

The hope among the Democratic leaders and Republican leaders is that there's enough members in the middle, on both sides of the aisle to push this through tonight. But in talking to Republicans and Democrats, it's clear both sides are unhappy about this deal.

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REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): I'm disappointed with the way that it's been messaged because I don't think it's been an honest display of what the bill does and it doesn't cut spending, does very little for the deficit, and, really, it's D.C. math for two years.

REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): Very disappointed, very disappointed. President Biden did the best he could with Republicans holding the global economy hostage. President Biden, quite frankly, kicked McCarthy's butt in negotiations. They wanted much more than they got. The President made sure they didn't get those things. But it's still a bad deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, the hope among Democratic leaders is essentially a lot of members will simply hold their nose and vote for it and recognizing they have to vote for it because it is the only thing that could avoid a debt default. And the expectation among Democratic leaders is that the Republicans will bring over about 150 votes tonight and Democrats could help supply the rest of the votes from more of their more moderate members.

That is still the betting at this moment, that this will get over the finish line. McCarthy will get a majority of his conference, plus some, and then it will move on to the Senate, where it is expected to pass in a matter of days, just barely avoiding the debt default, but not without some significant drama and a lot of consternation among members who don't like the deal but recognize they have to vote for it. John?

BERMAN: So, Manu, there was this sense that Republican leadership had told the White House they could get 150 Republican votes with, as you say, Democrats making up the rest, which is what, I'm bad at math, 65 about votes there. Do Democrats have a number that they've promised here?

[10:05:00]

RAJU: They are being a little bit vague intentionally, John, because a lot of the members are going to look up at the board to see that they've actually crossed the threshold at 218 votes, which is needed to pass legislation, assuming all members are there and voting for it. And then some members may decide to vote if the votes are needed, but somebody vote no if their votes are not needed.

So, that's why it's a bit murky on what the Democrats, the Democratic number could be, but they are expected to at least bail out the Republicans if they're not able to get the necessary votes on their side of the aisle to push this through, which is why the betting is that this will pass today. And it's unclear exactly how many Democrats will support it, but, ultimately, they may have to, John.

BERMAN: All right. Confident about passage, the numbers, though, they will tell a different story. And I know you're watching it all very closely, Manu. Please keep us posted. Rahel?

SOLOMON: And, John, this morning, the GOP field for 2024 is about to expand even more. We are learning that former New Jersey governor and onetime Trump ally Chris Christie is planning to formally announce his presidential bid next week.

And another 2024 hopeful is making it clear that he plans to stand up to Donald Trump on the trail. Ron DeSantis in Iowa calling on Trump to take a position on the debt deal. The Florida governor had avoided direct confrontation with the former president, but those days seem to be over.

With us now, Chief Politics Reporter for the Des Moines Register Brianne Pfannenstiel. Welcome to the program. Good morning.

BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL, CHIEF POLITICS REPORTER, DES MOINES REGISTER: Good morning.

SOLOMON: So, this is the second day, of course, for Iowa events for DeSantis. Trump will be there tomorrow. How important really is Iowa?

PFANNENSTIEL: Iowa could be more critical than ever this year. We're talking to Republicans. The expectations game is already going, right? Donald Trump is entering this race, really, as the clear frontrunner. He's got a big advantage in polling. He's got an infrastructure in the state, a built in base of support. So, he's really coming in strong.

So, really, anything other than a win for him could look like a big loss. If Ron DeSantis or anyone else comes in here and kind of surpasses him and takes over that lead spot, then it's not a good look for him. He loses some momentum going into the next states.

But I've had Republicans here tell me that if he wins, it could really help kind of cement this idea that his nomination is inevitable, that he can really claim a lot of momentum going into the next states and keep that moving through the early voting states and into Super Tuesday.

So, Iowa is always critical as the first state in the presidential primary process, but some Republicans are saying that it's even more important this year.

SOLOMON: The bickering and the back and forth between the former president and Ron DeSantis, dDoes that then create a lane for another candidate to just sort of swoop right in, perhaps a Chris Christie candidate who already has the national profile and has made it clear he's also not afraid to attack Trump on his record?

PFANNENSTIEL: Yes. When we talk about the Iowa caucuses, we tend to talk about three tickets out of the state. The top three contenders getting the clearing to move on, so to speak, getting a vote of confidence from Iowa caucus goers.

And so it's going to be interesting this year to see whether it is a two-person contest between Donald Trump and someone else, right, or if it continues to be those top three tickets, whether somebody like Tim Scott or a Chris Christie or a Nikki Haley can kind of come in there and do better than expected.

Again, we're talking about the expectations game. They need to show that they can do better than people are expecting in order to kind of get that vote of confidence and claim some momentum moving forward.

So, we'll see who comes in and can make a strong showing. Tim Scott is hiring up in the state. He's got a big war chest he can put into the process here. Nikki Haley has been on the ground a lot over the past several weeks, so we'll see how they do.

SOLOMON: And, Brianne, really quickly, we know that at the DeSantis event yesterday, you spoke to voters, you spoke to Trump voters. What have they been telling you?

PFANNENSTIEL: Yes. We hear from a lot of Iowa Republicans who have voted for President Donald Trump before. They have supported him. They like a lot of his policies. But they're looking at these other candidates, and we hear that and a lot at these DeSantis events, Republicans who say they want someone who has similar policies but a lot less baggage.

They are tired of the chaos. They want someone who can win. We heard Governor DeSantis say that none of these policies matter if you can't actually get elected. And that was a dig at the former president who did lose the election, who supported some candidates who didn't fare well in the midterms. He's really casting himself as that person who can get elected and get these things through. And that really seems to be resonating with a lot of Republicans on the ground here.

SOLOMON: And we know that Trump will be there tomorrow or expected to be there tomorrow. Brianne Pfannenstiel, thank you. John?

BERMAN: So, new this morning, The New York Times is reporting that the special counsel investigating Donald Trump's alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election wants new information about his firing of an election security official.

[10:10:03]

Christopher Krebs was dismissed shortly after the election for contradicting Trump's baseless election fraud claim. Krebs and his agency agree with other cyber security and election officials that the election was, quote, the most secure in American history.

With us now, CNN Legal Analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers. So, Jennifer, what lead legal issues could be at play surrounding the firing of Chris Krebs?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: There are a couple of things, John. One, of course, is the state of mind of former President Trump. As you try to put a case together, you always have to prove the defendant's state of mind. So, all evidence that Trump actually knew because his advisers were telling him that he lost the election, the election was secure, there was no voting machine problems, all of that is relevant.

But this is even more important than that, because as we heard in the January 6 committee's work, and I think Jack Smith is trying to put together a similar case, this was a multipronged conspiracy. And one of the first prongs was the former president lying about what happened and then the spreading of disinformation about the election results in 2020.

So, anyone like Christopher Krebs, who was a Trump-appointee leading a government office, who came out and said this election was secure, there was no fraud here, and then that person was fired, that's an important piece of evidence in terms of proving that prong of the conspiracy, the disinformation prong.

BERMAN: When you talk about the former president's state of mind, again, what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that he believed whether the election was, quote/unquote, stolen or whether that he should have known or had to have known that it was not?

RODGERS: It's kind of all of the above in a way, John. I mean, you have to prove that. When you're trying to prove that he was lying to the American people, that all of these things that he was doing, he knew to be wrong, you have to come up with things that prove that.

So, every time you have a close adviser who is a Trump-appointee in a government office saying, Mr. President, the American people, everyone should know this was a fraud free election, that's a piece of evidence that helps you prove that Trump not only should have known but actually did know that he lost.

And it's just one of many, many things that Jack Smith and his team will be trying to put together, but it's a good one. And the fact that Trump refused to accept that, fired him and then went on to retaliate against other people, according to the reporting, is going to be important in this regard.

BERMAN: All right. That was from The New York Times. The Washington Post has reporting this morning that suggests the special counsel, and it's the same special counsel, it's just a different facet of investigation, is focused in on security footage at Mar-a-Lago in and around the time that the documents were taken or the subpoenas were issued. This has to do with the chain of custody that there were people allegedly asking where does this security footage live, how can people access this and whatnot. What's the relevance here?

RODGER: So, that could be innocent, right? I mean, if you are asked to get a hold of security footage, one of the things that you would do, usually your lawyers would do this, but they would inquire, what is the system like, what does it keep, how long does it keep footage, those sorts of things, if you're responding to a subpoena.

But it also could be not innocent, right? It could be trying to interfere with it, thinking about can we hide this footage, what are we going to do about a subpoena that they're asking for? And, again, it's serving two purposes. It's a state of mind thing. It is, you know, what did they know about whether they were supposed to have this information, and then it's a separate case. I mean, we know Jack Smith has been working hard putting together an obstruction of justice case, which is an entirely separate statute.

So, I'm looking for when this ultimately is brought charges about the documents themselves, keeping them, mishandling them, but then also obstruction of justice. So, this is another piece of evidence that potentially goes to both of those sets of charges.

BERMAN: Jennifer Rodgers, Counselor, always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Kate?

BOLDUAN: This morning, the Kremlin is concerned about what it is calling the, quote, alarming situation in Belgorod. The governor of that Russian border region said four people were injured and what they are describing as a massive strike, with several buildings also damaged.

And near that border between Russia and Ukraine, two Russian oil refineries are seen in this video. They were allegedly attacked by drone by -- allegedly targeted by drone attacks, rather. This video that we've just gotten in today, it was shared on social media and it shows the aftermath. I mean, that blaze, intense blaze at one of these plants, very clearly visible from the road nearby.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen, he is in Kyiv with much more on all of this. And, Fred, in general, these kind of cross-border strikes, they really have been picking up. What more are you learning about them?

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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're absolutely right, Kate. They've been picking up in a very big way. And it was quite interesting because just before we went to air, there was a senior adviser to the presidency here in Ukraine who came out and said, look, the Ukrainians obviously aren't acknowledging being behind any of these strikes and attacks. However, they are saying the Russians are going to have to get used to the war coming to them and increasingly doing so in the time moving forward. So, that seems to be a pretty clear warning there coming from the Ukrainians.

And the Kremlin says it's concerned. Certainly, the people on the ground there say that they are concerned as well. In fact, we got some interviews with some people that we saw who said, look, there was a massive burst of fire that took place earlier today in that place that was subject to that strike. And, obviously, a lot of folks there are calling on the Russian authorities to do something to keep them safer, which, in and itself, obviously, is a big problem for the Kremlin.

The damage there does seem to be pretty extensive in the Belgorod region, and it is one that has been targeted repeatedly over the past couple of days and the past couple of weeks. Of course, you'll recall, Kate, that a week ago, there was a cross-border raid by anti-Putin Russians who normally fight on the side of the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians say, we're acting independently there, who went across that border and actually held territory there for a while, the same in those refinery attacks that happened pretty far to the south of there. So, you can see that the sort of area that this covers is pretty large.

One of the other things that we were also paying attention to, which we thought was really interesting, is the Russians have now bombed a road close to the border with Ukraine. The Ukrainians are saying it shows pretty nervous on the part of the Russians, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And there's also new reporting, Fred, I wanted to ask you about, about a group of anti-Putin Russian soldiers working to recruit now drone pilots. What are you learning about that?

PLEITGEN: Yes, it's something that they put on one of their social media channels where they say that they're looking for drone pilots. And it was quite interesting, some of the instructions or some of the things that they said that people would learn.

Now, we have to know about this group. It was one of the groups that was part of that cross-border raid there into Belgorod. They might be playing off the fact that there was this drone attack on Moscow that took place yesterday that, of course, the Ukrainians haven't acknowledged yet, but they are talking about flying fixed wing drones, which is the same type that was flown in that attack.

They are talking about putting these drones together in your own home, arming them. They're learning to fly them under difficult circumstances, which could indicate that they are training people who might want to do this inside of Russia as well.

Again, it's unclear, it's pretty ominous, but certainly that group does have ground forces, also has drones as well, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Fred, thank you so much for this latest reporting, as we're getting that new video and from those oil refineries today shared on social media. Thank you so much, Fred, as always. Rahel?

SOLOMON: Okay. Coming up for us, an 11-year-old boy calls 911 for help and then he ends up being shot by police. It's a story we had been following. Well, up next, why the mayor is now calling for justice, but not calling for the officer involved to be fired.

Plus, it looks like a bit of a movie stunt, but this was entirely real life. Take a look at this real police body camera footage capturing the moment a car hit a tow truck and then launched into the air. The latest on how that driver is now doing, coming up next.

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BERMAN: This morning, the mayor of Indianola, Mississippi is calling for justice for 11-year-old Aderrien Murry, but stopped short of calling for the officer who shot him to be fired. Murry was wrongfully shot in the chest by Sergeant Greg Capers a couple of weeks ago. And Mayor Ken Featherstone tells CNN there are no plans to fire Capers.

After more than 30 years of service, us border Patrol Chief Raul Ortiz will retire at the end of June. He led the agency through a slew of challenges recently, including the expiration of Title 42. Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas thanked him for his years of service. It is not clear yet who will replace him.

So, just incredible footage out of Georgia, a car drives right up a flatbed truck and then launches itself right into the road after it flips through the air. Miraculously, we are told the driver survived that crash. I got a lot of questions, Kate, about why he was driving up the ramp of a flatbed truck, but I guess the important thing is that everyone is okay.

BOLDUAN: You know what? Thankfully, he's okay and those questions can be -- I'm sorry, I'm going to stutter because I'm just watching this video again and it's kind of remarkable to see. And the fact that the police were there on the other side, like dealing something else --

BERMAN: They were responding to another incident.

BOLDUAN: It is really wild.

BERMAN: They were responding to another incident.

BOLDUAN: Is the other car hit, the one that was driving past it? That's what I can't tell in this video.

BERMAN: Yes, no, I can't tell either. Again, it was a female driver, but the important thing is everyone walked away.

BOLDUAN: Everyone walked away, all right, okey-dokey.

Let's get back to this. There is backlash from the left and backlash from the right today as lawmakers dig into the debt limit compromise. In these final hours before the House is slated to have votes, top business leaders are sounding off in the deal as well, making clear that they want it passed and they want it passed soon.

A major group of bank CEOs put out a statement praising the agreement, as did the head of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. And the nation's largest group of manufacturers has come to support the deal as well.

Jay Timmons is the president and CEO of the National Association of Manufacturers and he joins us now. Jay, thank you so much for coming in to talk about this. This is an important moment for the country, an important moment for manufacturers all across the country and I'm glad we can get your take. You guys put out a statement in part saying this. I want to read it. Congress should act quickly to pass this agreement and to demonstrate to Americans and to the world the continued strength of our institutions and our democracy.

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There are plenty of people on either side of the aisle on Capitol Hill right now that are not happy about this. So, why does this deal work for the largest manufacturing trade group in the nation?

JAY TIMMONS, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS: Well, I think that the deal will pass, Kate, because of the sensible middle. I think that will happen later today in the House, and then there will be action in the Senate. But it matters because it shows that America works.

Manufacturers work every day to make sure that we're competitive, that we can grow our industry, provide jobs, and, by the way, we pay our credit card bills on time. So, it's pretty important that the United States government demonstrates that it can do the same thing, because the world's economy is really at risk here if we don't succeed and we default.

BOLDUAN: Republican Nancy Mace of South Carolina said something I wanted to ask you about. She essentially says that she doesn't believe the hype on this bill. Let me play this for you, Jay.

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MACE: I read the bill. I read it multiple times, and I'm disappointed with the way that it's been messaged because I don't think it's been an honest display of what the bill does.

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BOLDUAN: Nancy Mace was speaking to my colleague, Manu Raju, there. Do you think the American -- are people being hoodwinked by this?

TIMMONS: So, the bottom line is the bill does exactly what we needed to do, which is it increases the debt limit, it allows the government to pay its bills. That was what we've been calling for since January.

The other thing the bill does, though, which I think is very important, Kate, to note, is that it provides permitting reform. It's not everything that we want to see. There are still a lot to do in terms of transmission lines and our ability to upgrade the grid.

But as far as permitting reform, in order for the -resident to succeed, in terms of the infrastructure investment bill that passed the Chips and Science Act, the IRA bill that passed, all of those projects that are contained in there desperately need permitting reform so that we can move these projects along.

I will also say that in addition to what Congress is getting ready to do with the debt ceiling, the administration and Congress, with proper oversight, needs to deal with regulatory reform because we have a slew, an onslaught of regulations that are raining down on manufacturers that are making it impossible for manufacturers to plan, to invest, to create new jobs. So, there's still a lot of work to be done, but this is a good first step.

Which is why, in what you lay out, why it is probably somewhat surprising to folks to hear how critical some Republicans are of this, when you talk about the permitting reform, we know that there are some Democrats and progressives who are unhappy where they think it goes too far. Republicans would like to see it maybe go a bit further. But we also have Republicans, not only some Republicans and Democrats, not only saying that they themselves are not going to vote for this bill.

We heard from a Republican like Ken Buck, and I'll play for you him saying he doesn't think anyone should be voting for this bill despite what you just said. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEN BUCK (R-CO): When the American people understand that our debt is going to rise to $35 trillion by the end of 2024, they will be aghast that anybody could support this bill.

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BOLDUAN: Jay, if Ken Buck got his way and this deal falls apart, if this deal would fall apart, I know you said you're confident that it will pass, though, from your perspective, what would happen if this deal falls apart?

TIMMONS: So, look, it's a binary choice at this point, right? You either -- the government either pays its bills or it doesn't. If the government doesn't pay its bills, we have a catastrophic economic situation on our hands. And it doesn't just affect the United States. It affects the entire world economy.

So, we know that walking into it. Speaker McCarthy certainly knows it, which is why he negotiated for this for this deal. The president clearly understands it. That's why he negotiated. And we're going to get to yes because of the sensible middle of both parties.

That's an important signal. It's an important signal to the markets. It's an important signal to the American business community that our government is serious about making sure that we can continue to function and that our economy will continue to be able to function as well.

But, again, this is a first step, Kate. So, we get the debt ceiling passed. We get some permitting reform, again, which is really important, and congratulations to those members who were able to get that included. And then we have to start focusing on American competitiveness for manufacturing to make sure that all of the promises that were delivered in terms of legislation for infrastructure, chips and science and IRA can be realized. And the way to do that is through regulatory reform and holding the line on calls for tax increases that would make it more expensive to do business in this country.

BOLDUAN: Like every American is going to be impacted by this debt deal, especially if this debt deal would fall apart, it's good to get the perspective of the manufacturers across the country in this moment.

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