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Critical Point in Search for Lost Sub; Biden Hosts India Prime Minister; Ukraine Counteroffensive Not Meeting Expectations; Russia Upholds Extended Detention for Gershkovich; Ex-Subcontractor Speaks about Missing Sub. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 22, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:32:34]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Experts and explorers are still expressing hope this morning of saving the Titan crew. A remote operated vehicle is searching the sea floor for the submersible lost as it headed to the Titanic. The Horizon Arctic arriving at the search site and deploying a remote operated vehicle early this morning. Also headed to the site, the Magellan Remote Operated Vehicle, which has been to the site of the Titanic more than any other such vehicle.

CNN's Tom Foreman joins us now.

Tom, can you tell me a little bit more about these assets and if researchers really have all the things they need to rescue these folks that are stuck in this submersible?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll tell you, Sara, in theory they absolutely have everything they need because I would dare say this is the largest collection of technology to do this kind of search that has ever existed on this planet, at least it will be when it's all there and some of it's still underway.

Look at what they have on the surface. They have an armada of ships up there. They have a squadron of airplanes. They're all working up above scanning the surface for any sign that this may have come up to the surface already. They're also using sonar to reach below the surface and look for any signs of what might be below there.

Then, deeper down there are other pieces of technology that are able to lower into the water and scan even more deeply for any indication of what is there. Some of these, like side scan sonar, are capable of really mapping the entire ocean floor in that area looking for any anomalies that might say we should look here, we should look there.

And then, of course, you've been talking about the remotely operated vehicles. These sort of robotic things that can be lowered down to the bottom there, the lower right. These are highly advanced pieces of technology which cannot only go down and help look for this submersible, but if they find it, would be capable of going over and cutting it lose from anything that might be holding it, pulling it free, attaching a cable to it to pull it back to the surface.

So, why do I just say in theory they have all they need? Because the one thing they really need right now, Sara, is more time. Every single thing we're describing here takes time to get into position, to rig up, to deploy, to then deploy it and let it do its work.

Here's one way of looking at it. Some of these searches on the bottom, yes, your earlier guest is correct, they won't try to search everything.

[09:35:03]

They will narrow it down to the most likely place. But imagine if you had a small drone of your own and you were told, search all of New York City for one particular car. Even though it's a good piece of technology and it's a small area, it would take time.

SIDNER: Yes, the sobering truth is, you can have all the equipment in the world, but you can't create more time. And right now they can't create more oxygen. Those two things really crucial in trying to save the five people on that vessel.

FOREMAN: Absolutely.

SIDNER: Tom Foreman, it's always lovely to see you. Thanks so much.

FOREMAN: Thanks.

SIDNER: Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: In the next hour the leaders of the two largest democracies in the world will be meeting. President Biden will be welcoming India's Prime Minister Modi to the White House. Now, Modi is highly popular in India. He's also a controversial figure. Actually denied entry to the United States back in 2005 for his alleged role in anti-Muslim violence there that killed more than a thousand people in India.

Up until today, President Biden has hosted just two other state visits since he took office, one for the French leader and also South Korea. Biden sees India as perhaps the most strategically important partner for the United States in the 21st century.

CNN's Arlette Saenz, she has more from the White House.

Arlette, what is the White House hoping to get out of this visit?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, President Biden is really navigating a fraught situation. On the one hand, as you outlined, there are concerns over Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's human rights record, as well as this drift towards authoritarianism that has been seen in his government.

But on the other hand, the president and the White House really view India as a key strategic partner in their overall Asia policy, especially when you think about Russia and China and the influence that they have had in the region. And so that is why the White House says the president has invited Modi here to the White House for this state visit, even as he is facing criticism for hosting such a lavish affair for Modi.

Now, it's about to kick off in about 30 minutes when Modi arrives there for this arrival ceremony on the South Lawn. They will have Oval Office meetings, as well as a state dinner later this evening. They're expected to make some key announcements in defense and technology areas, and that includes India purchasing some drones, as well as this agreement to have G.E. manufacturer engines for India's military aircraft in India. There's also some initiatives when it comes to visas and semiconductor manufacturing.

But one of the key moments that will be watched this afternoon is when the two men stand before the press to take questions. We did not know up until yesterday whether that would, in fact, happen. There were some very delicate and lengthy negotiations with Indian officials initially balking at the idea of a news conference. But they have settled on having one with each side getting one question. So that would be something that people are really watching this afternoon.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. I mean Modi doesn't meet with the press in India.

SAENZ: No.

BOLDUAN: So this is - that is going to be a significant moment. And it will all be starting, as you said, in just about 30 minutes as the president will be welcoming Modi to the White House. And this -- they are literally rolling out the red carpet for the Indian leader this -- today and throughout the day. He's also going to be meeting with Congress, giving a speech to Congress at some point during his visit.

Great to see you, Arlette. Thank you.

We're going to be bringing all of this to you as it plays out.

Sara.

SIDNER: Shows how important that relationship is.

Thank you, Kate.

American journalist Evan Gershkovich appears in a Moscow courtroom over espionage charges. Charges "The Wall Street Journal" reporter vehemently denies. Detail on what happened in that courtroom just ahead.

And new CNN reporting on Ukraine's counteroffensive. Western officials weigh in on the early stages, and Ukrainian efforts are not meeting expectations. That's coming up next.

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[09:43:11]

BOLDUAN: There's new CNN reporting this morning, western officials say so far Ukraine's counteroffensive is not turning out to be as successful as they had hoped and that Russian forces are showing to be stronger and better fortified than expected.

My colleague, Jim Sciutto, he has this new reporting and he joins us now.

Jim, what more are you hearing from your sources about what they've seen to lead to this assessment?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Kate, this, as you know, this counter offensive, highly anticipated. A lot of build up to it over weeks and months. And a lot of western equipment headed Ukraine's way to give it what it needed. But, early on at least, the expectations not being met really on any front in the combination of things, Ukrainian forces having trouble breaching Russian defenses and Russian forces proving more competent in many ways than expected.

What western assessments are seeing is that as Ukrainians forces try to breach those Russian defensive lines, they're running into literal minefields, but also the Russian forces have had success using missiles against Ukrainian armored columns, also doing a better job of coordinating with Russian air power, which is something that U.S. officials, western officials, had not seen early in this campaign.

Now, it is early. Western officials remain optimistic going forward. But, at least in these early stages, they're not making the progress that was expected.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and I do want to ask you if you're getting a sense from your sources of kind of how long they give before they determine if this counter offensive is turning out to look like a success or something less than that?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, certainly more time, right? I mean it is early stages. And the expectation going in was that this was not going to take place over days, but weeks and months.

[09:45:01]

And that still holds. And I'm told that even for a preliminary assessment of the success of the counteroffensive, they're going to wait until at least next month, right, to make those kinds of judgments.

And I should also note that just as Russian forces have been adapting to Ukrainian tactics, Ukrainian forces have been adapting, even in these early stages, to Russia defenses. I'm told that Ukrainian forces doing more dismounted attacks, in other words getting out of those armored vehicles. They're also having more success shooting down Russian aircraft, and that's important, right, because Russia does maintain an air advantage, and they've been using that to great effect.

And, Kate, you and I have talked about this too, in all circumstances a defending force has advantages. Russia has had weeks and months to build up multiple lines of defenses here. They always knew this was going to be tough going in. But it has been a tough slog, a hard fight, with big losses, sadly, on both sides.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and we have seen, as you have done so much reporting on, Jim, that Ukraine has already shown to be very quickly adaptable to the conditions that they've been facing.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BOLDUAN: We'll see what happens in the coming days, as you said, and weeks and months.

Good to see you, Jim. Great - thanks for coming on.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, speaking of Russia, new today, a Russian court rejected an appeal from "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich to end his pretrial detention. Gershkovich appeared behind a glass wall in a Moscow courtroom. You see him there. He will remain locked up until at least August 30th. He faces really strong charges of espionage, which, of course, he denies. Charges "The Wall Street Journal" calls outrageous.

CNN's Nic Robertson is live in London with the latest.

Nic, first of all, can you give us a sense of how Evan is holding up and exactly what played out and how this played out in court?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, we've got a couple of different assessments on that. There was a CNN crew in the courtroom there, able to see and get close to him. Obviously he was behind that glass wall. They said he seemed a bit agitated, a bit nervous. The U.S. ambassador, Lynne Tracy, was also able to enter the courtroom today. She said he was showing remarkable resiliency. His family, his parents, Ella and Mikhail, actually were able to speak to him during a break in the courtroom sessions. Perhaps that lifted his spirits a bit.

But the reality here is that the U.S. is not getting the access it wants. The ambassador said three times Russia has knocked back requests for consular access to Evan. And he, the ambassador said when she came out of the courtroom, he continues to be wrongfully held. Just a journalist, just doing his job.

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LYNNE TRACY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: The charges against him are baseless. He is an innocent journalist who was carrying out journalistic activities, and has been wrongfully detained. Such hostage diplomacy is unacceptable. And we call on the Russian federation to release him, as well as Paul Whelan, another U.S. citizen who has been wrongfully detained. And we call for that release to occur immediately.

((END VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTSON: And I think perhaps the day's proceedings were summed up mostly by "The Wall Street Journal," who said, look, this was not unexpected, this outcome, but it is, nevertheless, absolutely outrageous. The point, he is a journalist and he was practicing journalism, not espionage. Trumped up charges.

SIDNER: Yes. And you look at those pictures of him and you can see that he's tired. But I did notice a little smile there. So he's trying to get through this as best he can.

Nic Robertson, thank you so much for all your reporting. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, right now there are high-tech - there is high-tech equipment and specially trained medical crews headed to join the search for the missing sub in the north Atlantic. We're hearing also from a former subcontractor who helped build the Titan who says some industry experts were concerned about its construction at the time.

We'll be back.

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[09:52:54]

BOLDUAN: This morning, a former OceanGate contractor tells CNN some of the material and design choices for the Titan were considered controversial at the time it was built, including the decision to use carbon fiber for the hull of the vessel.

Listen to this.

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DOUG VIRNIG, FORMER OCEANGATE SUBCONTRACTOR: Winning (ph) a wider weight, higher capacity pressure hull, and then you end up with a - a choice like carbon fiber.

Various people from around the world felt like that was a very experimental choice.

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BOLDUAN: CNN's Veronica Miracle has more on this.

And, Veronica, you spoke with the subcontractor. Why does he say the company was working so quickly, if you will, to develop the Titan, and what impact that could have had?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, Doug Virnig told me that he understood CEOs, Stockton Rush's mission, and OceanGate's vision was to create a bunch of this lightweight submersibles that could fit a lot of people to explore undiscovered parts of the ocean for research. And he said that actually adventure tourism was never the goal, be taking people down to the Titanic was a high-ticket item that they came up with in order to fund their vision and to innovate.

But he said, as they were trying to develop quickly, there were some controversial decisions that were made. You just heard him talk about the carbon fiber hull and the decision to do that. He also talked about the fact that they did not have a conning (ph) tower, they chose not to have one, which would allow - have allowed people to get in and out of the submersible or open the hatch to allow oxygen in if the submersible was about to reach the surface. He spoke about the carbon fiber decision.

Take a listen.

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DOUG VIRNIG, FORMER OCEANGATE SUBCONTRACTOR: They created a pressure hull and took it to Woods Hole Institute and subjected it to the pressures that you would find at depth where Titanic is, and it passed. But then the question is, well, if you do that repeatedly, then what happens.

[09:55:01]

So, these are the sorts of questions that if you have a long research and development program you start answering. But if you really are pushing the envelope, there's no time to, you know, you're - you're answering those questions in real time.

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MIRACLE: And, Kate, I did ask if he would go on the Titan himself down to - on an expedition like down to the Titanic, and he said, he supports OceanGate's mission and vision, but as somebody with an engineering background, who knows everything that could go wrong, he just would not have been comfortable.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Interesting.

Veronica, thank you for that.

Sara.

SIDNER: Justice Samuel Alito had a critical day at the Supreme Court. It's about that time. We are keeping our eye on several key opinions that could have major ramifications. The latest, next.

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